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Under this heading the author writes: "Atlas Shrugged has been cited in numerous interviews as the book that most influenced the subject.[27][28]", but does not identify "the subject" (which I assue is Objectivism). Needs a minor edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.225.3 ( talk) 18:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
"In 1963, Rand wrote an essay titled "The Goal of My Writing" in which she states the goal of her fiction is to project her vision of an ideal man: not man as he is, but man as he might and ought to be. Her 1969 book, The Romantic Manifesto: A Philosophy of Literature, explores more fully the differences between Rand's aesthetic views and those of the academic mainstream." This passage is not a criticism of Rand's work and should either be moved to another section of the article or deleted altogether. 70.21.38.201 ( talk) 06:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Did Rand ever officially renounce Judaism or convert to another religion? Because if she did not, then she is a Russian Jewish writer. 70.21.38.201 ( talk) 07:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
1) In Judaism, someone born as a jew is in principle a jew forever, even renouncing the faith. So this is immaterial; 2) "Jewish" in the wikipedia categories that you mentioned or that had recently been removed from the article, is actually more of an ETHNIC than a religious classification, so much so that they include professed atheists and sometimes even converts. And there is no doubt that she was ethnically a jew. So, what is the problem with including Rand in these categories? Justice III ( talk) 21:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Rand didn't "convert to another religion", because she never professed any religion, insofar as the historical record shows, and as an adult, she definitely "renounced" all religions, as well as all forms of racism and of classification on the basis of accidents of ancestry. Rand did not call herself Jewish, and nobody who knew her would have dared to call her Jewish. — DAGwyn ( talk) 05:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The second half of Cult Criticism violated both WP:POV and WP:Sources and when I fixed it, someone reverted it for "POV Vandalism". What I object to is the following passage in the Cult Criticism section: "The Biographical FAQ of the Objectivism Reference Center website discusses these allegations and refers to a letter in which Rand replies to a fan who wrote her offering cult-like allegiance by declaring "A blind follower is precisely what my philosophy condemns and what I reject. Objectivism is not a mystic cult"".
What this is essentially saying is that in response to accusations that objectivism is a cult, objectivists have stated that they are not a cult. This is obviously not a reliable third party source as required by WP:Sources, so can we either find a better source for this or delete it? 70.21.38.201 ( talk) 03:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I say we should get rid of the section. While it is certainly true that some followers of Rand have acted like cultists, it is equally true that many others in no way qualify as cultists. This "cult" accusation primarily serves as a way for detractors to denigrate Rand's ideas by associating them with an irrelevancy rather than addressing the ideas on their merits. That might be a popular political ploy, but it's not a valid form of criticism. I note that another recent posting here similarly proposes to eliminate a response to criticism of Rand's literary aesthetic, and there have been other suggestions that the article must not contain Rand's own statements, but only those of "third-party" commentators, who as it happens are largely allied against Rand. I find that a willful misreading of WP policies. Certainly Rand's denunciation of a cult following is important information concerning this topic, and there simply is no better source for her views on this than her own statement. — DAGwyn ( talk) 05:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is my opinion as a neutral third party: third party sources are not necessary when the article is quoting the opinion of a particular individual. Since the section is dealing with the perception of Rand's following as being a "cult", Rand's own personal thoughts on this are very much relevant. However, the sentence itself needs to be re-written so it's more NPOV. (language such as "However" and "Rand itself" are not needed). -- MisterHand ( Talk to the Hand| Contribs) 17:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The pronunciation key needs a normal dictionary-like pronunciation on how to pronounce her first name, as opposed to the current IPA guide, which, statistically speaking, nobody understands and nobody uses. Tempshill ( talk) 17:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I put a fact tag on this because although there is a citation that gives the 500,000 number, it comes from an interested party. The statistic needs a different source if one can be found. Tempshill ( talk) 17:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
User:DAGwyn, maybe you don't understand what I'm getting at. In the revision note you said
No reason to doubt cited reference, which is supported by others (e.g. Economist in 1991, also in article). Zogby info relevant to stated poll challenge. Don't clutter text with ref info.
This is where you added back the statement:
The Zogby poll result can be checked by simple arithmetic: Roughly 8 million copies of Atlas Shrugged had been sold in America by that time; there are around 200 million adult Americans who might be considered the sample space; if 2 people read each copy (fewer than for most magazines), then 8% is the right fraction.
In the article I see the reference to the Economist but it only talks about the number of sold copies. That's fine, but I'm more concerned about the "simple arithmetic". If you are performing this arithmetic then it's considered original research. Otherwise you need to cite your source for this statement. Even if your self-performed calculation was allowed, you still don't cite your source for "200 million adult Americans who might be considered the sample space", and "fewer than for most magazines".
If you still disagree and think your statement is allowable without citing the (non-original) source, then we'll have to go the admins. -- WayneMokane ( talk) 21:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
As much as most editors on here love Rand, the latest edits to the Cult Criticism section are ridiculous. Regardless of your views on Rand, it is a fact that a number of prominent figures have accused Objectivism of being a cult. It is our job to accurately represent their views. Thus, when a Cult Criticism section has a one sentence blurb about their views followed by a giant block quote that presents a counter-argument to their views, that's just a tad unbalanced. See WP:Undue Weight Again, I don't care how much you love Rand, your insistence on maintaining bias in an ENCYCLOPEDIA article is keeping this from becoming a better article. Let the facts stand on their own without watering down the facts that you don't like. Idag ( talk) 01:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
←From 3O: According to WP:UNDUE, all viewpoints should be fairly represented. At present the rebuttal to the cult criticism appears to be fairly represented, but the actual cult criticism isn't. Increasing the length of the cult criticism section to be at least as long as its rebuttal would properly satisfy WP:UNDUE and the rest of WP:NPOV. Might I suggest inserting a longer summary or even a quotation from one of these critics?
"Her influential and often controversial ideas have attracted both enthusiastic admirers and scathing denunciation."
The word "admirers" used to say "admiration". Why was it changed to a noun? I don't see what advantage the change confers upon the sentence; in fact, it seems to not read as smoothly.
So I find that a lot of that list appears to be apocryphal. I checked every entry in that list who I was not sure about, and if their article did not mention Ayn Rand, I removed them from the list. Michael Paxton does not have a Wikipedia Article, ergo I don't think he's terribly notable. I also removed the soap opera star--that's really just not terribly interesting or important. A lot of the Objectivist thinkers mentioned in the original article, such as Cline, the Brandens, etc. are simply not that well known--having them in a list with celebrities and politicians strikes me as dubious, which is why I moved them out to a philosopher's list--although I suppose technically not all of them are philosophers, which is why I renamed it to "philosophers and thinkers". TallNapoleon ( talk) 19:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
There have been enough flame wars on this talk page and it needs to stop. I will delete *any* further attempts to restart them or replies thereto myself. TallNapoleon ( talk) 01:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Added the following quote and description of the book from Aynrand.org, do this mentioned of Soviet tyranny violate wiki NPOV policy?: "The most autobiographical of her novels, it was based on her years under Soviet tyranny." [1] It is me i think ( talk) 04:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
This article is very long as many have noted. I think we could reduce it by shrinking a lot of the Objectivist philosophy and Objectivist Movement parts. There are separate artcile for those that are better places for a lot of the material. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Ethan a dawe ( talk) 22:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
A user asked why we should keep reliably sourced material per WP:ATT that he personally doesn't like? A strange question, I thought. The obvious answer would be simply that the quote was attributed to a reliable source and that one crisp sentence outlining Boisvert's opinion of Ayn Rand in the Criticism section of this article is neither overloading the article per WP:UNDUE nor providing any other red flags per Wikipedia policy. That should be enough for anyone. But in case it's not, students of academic philosophy might remember Raymond Boisvert for his book John Dewey: Rethinking Our Time(Albany: State University of New York Press, 1998), which was favorably reviewed in The Philosophical Quarterly (Vol. 49, No. 195 (Apr., 1999), pp. 270-272) and Philosophy East and West (Vol. 48, No. 4 (Oct., 1998), pp. 671). Best regards, J Readings ( talk) 23:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:ATT does not say that the only criterion for including text is that it be properly sourced. (It asserts essentially the converse.) So far as I know, nobody has challenged the sourcing. What has been challenged is whether Boisvert's comment adds value to the article, which is already too long. The cited position doesn't appear to represent a commonly expressed view in the literature, so why should his personal opinion be recognized here? In fact there is an easy counterargument, namely "The greater the complexity of life, the greater the value in simplifying principles." (There is substantial philosophical tradition along those lines.) Without the opinion having entered into that sort of academic debate, why should it be granted special recognition? It sure smacks of unsubstantiated POV, and doesn't help the reader understand anything. — DAGwyn ( talk) 15:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
DAGwyn, you appear to be fairly new to Wikipedia, so it's not my intention to WP:BITE. In fact, I admire your gumption on what you believe to be worthy of inclusion in this article (especially the criticism section), but instead of engaging in an edit war, a more diplomatic (not to mention persuasive) approach would be to bring your concerns to the talk page in the form of an amicable discussion of policy. Constantly reverting the reliably sourced text because you happen to disagree with it, not only creates disruption, it resolves nothing. Speaking of disruption and policies, you currently have reverted that cited third-party text four times within a 24-hour period, thus breaking WP:3RR. I understand that mistakes sometimes happen and you probably just didn't realize your mistake, and to be honest, I don't want to have to report you, which I guarantee will lead to you being blocked for at least 24 hours. If you self-revert right now, I'll let it pass without a second thought. Please let me know what you want to do on that score. As for the substance, I'm at a loss to why you are dead-set against such a small sentence being added, when you're real concern (assuming you're sincere) should be on removing the reams of unsourced material in the earlier as part of an effort to decide what stays and what goes. I would be happy to discuss those areas in another section, if you'd prefer. J Readings ( talk) 17:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
He appears to be speaking as if he owns the article personally, so his subjective opinion is more important than the objective facts. As part of correcting other defects, I will make sure that your improvements are not lost in the shuffle. - Bert 20:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.111.29.12 ( talk)
After consulting with and on advice of admin I have removed all of Edwards comments and related ones. All further will also be deleted. he is a blocked user. Ethan a dawe ( talk) 02:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It's bad enough that you keep deleting Edward's comments, but it looks like you wiped out some other inconvenient truths while you were at it. In specific, you erased this exchange:
The neutral solution is to rephrase it so that the article simply says that she considered herself a philosopher and that some people agreed while others disagreed, without expressing a judgement. Then, by referencing some of the different views as to her status as a philosopher, citing notable figures on all sides of the issue, the article can provide enough information for the readers to decide for themselves. Of course, it is extremely relevant a number of people who are unambiguously philosophers, including Edward's Hook, decided she wasn't. After all, who better than philosophers to decide who qualifies as a philosopher? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 20:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I looked there and did not see any sound counter-arguments. Gesturing in the direction isn't going to cut it. If you think you have a refutation, you're going to need to explicitly present it. Failure to do so constitutes a concession.
Not only am I going to rescue the words you erased, I'm going to jump into this fray to remind Dawe that no debate on Wikipedia content is ever closed, at least not until Wikipedia 1.0 is shipped. Your claim that there was some discussion in the distant past carries no weight, even if it were supported by evidence instead of lazy hand-waving.
That's because we are not bound by its conclusions today; the current consensus controls the content, not some arbitrarily chosen historical one that favors your biases. Everytime someone new comes here and questions the content, you need to fight all over again for your view, and you need to win again. You don't get to just declare victory without ever entering the field of battle.
If you were right the in the first place, then all you'd have to do is repeat those sound arguments, trot out the irrefutable citations and bowl us over with the force of your scholarship. If you weren't, and you only won by exhausting, bullying or assasinating your opponents (alas poor Edward, I knew him not at all), then the consensus changes and the article changes.
I second the challenge: show that Rand is considered a philosopher by philosophical academia, not merely literary academia. If you can't do this, then I'll personally change the article to read "amateur philosopher".
Hey, I already explained myself, so I'm not going to waste my time repeating it all over again. You show me the arguments right here and we'll see if we can come to a consensus. Otherwise, you've done nothing to refute the fact that the citation for calling her a philosopher is invalid.
Good faith doesn't mean waiting forever and it doesn't mean accepting hand-waving and "go fish" in the place of rational argumentation. It's not my job to find counter-arguments against my argument; that's your job and if you can't do it, then you fail. Time's a-wasting.
and that's fine, but it's not mine and not that of many, many, many other people. Should we now review all philosophers posted on Wikipedia to determine whether they fit your criteria, and re-label everything according to Hook, or whomever? The answer is clearly NO. Philosophy, like art, is in the eye of the beholder. You may believe that a blob of paint is a work of art and I might believe that it's pig crap - but I certainly wouldn't edit the page to state that the piece of art is not art, because I have a source that defines art by a different standard. Is this coming across to you? I doubt it. Grazen ( talk) 15:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I read this twice and I didn't see any place where you actually addressed the argument. Please try again, only this time, don't miss the target. To remind you, Kant and Nietzsche, while they may be completely wrong on everything they ever wrote, are generally accepted within the academic philosophical community as philosophers, and rather significant ones at that.
The academic philosophical community was defined earlier in terms of achieving degrees from and teaching at accredited institutions. For example, Alvin Plantinga has a PhD in Philosophy from Yale, teaches the subject at Notre Dame and has been published in numerous peer-reviewed philosophical journals. He is unambiguously a philosopher, even though his philosophical stances amount to nothing more than Catholic apologetics. In contrast, whatever value there might be to Rand's ideas, she has none of these qualifications and simply fails to be a philosopher, as much as Plantinga fails to be a medical doctor or even a plumber. There's no shame in not being something, only in pretending to what you're not.
At this point, I don't believe this is in any way ambiguous or genuinely controversial. In fact, I don't see any credible alternative, and you're not proposing one above. Do you actually have an argument here or just an assertion? Let me know immediately.
It's good to have friends. Maybe you can be his friend by doing him a favor: help him find some sort of credible definition for the status of philosopher. I suggest this because, right now, he's got nothing and I just called his bluff. It would be in your rational self-interest to bail him out, if you can.
Rand is not. Instead, people like Hook question whether she's any sort of philosopher, and it's doesn't seem that she met any of the basic requirements, such as holding a degree, teaching the subject at an accredited college or getting published in a peer-reviewed journal. All this points to the fact that she's simply not a philosopher. She's a novelist who touches on philosophical (and, to be clear, mostly political) topics in an amateurish and unprofessional way.
She may be right or she may be wrong, but she's not a philosopher, and it's not a neutral POV to blandly claim otherwise. Please come back with evidence that addresses these points, or I will charitably assume you have none.
I can't see what's not there and I won't accept the blame for your inability to defend your views on their own merit. The real red herring here is that you are applying an irrelevant standard. If I said that Hippocrates, the father of medicine and originator of the oath that bears his name, wasn't really a doctor because he didn't have a license to practice in California in 2008, that would be patently absurd. It's just as absurd to say that Rand would have qualified as a philosopher under the standards we apply to Socrates. We need to apply only the standard that is most relevant to the time and place, not go fishing for a favorable venue, as you have done. In any case, the article doesn't suffer from bloat, it suffers from one-sidedness, so any attempt to shrink it by making it even less balances is unacceptable and will not be allowed. You have in no way made your case, nor have you refuted mine. Please address the argument.
Ayn Rand made substantial income as a novelist, not a philosopher. Philosophers write peer-reviewed papers that contribute to the academic field and are paid to teach in accredited institutions. Rand made some money as a professional speaker, and her writings were never even submitted for peer review in relevant journals. Applying the principle of charity, the best you can possibly hope to accomplish with this line of argument is to support the idea that Rand was an amateur philosopher, in much the same way that someone who fixes their stopped-up toilet is an amateur plumber. You have failed to address the argument against calling her a philosopher plain and simple, without qualifying the term with a disclaimer.
I believe that I've raised a new point that is not addressed in the archives. If I'm mistaken, you'll need to explcitly point out where they are, rather than waving your hand. Another maxim is that failure to address an argument amounts to admitting that it is correct.
It's impossible for me to prove that something is absent, other than to point out that I looked but did not find. This tosses the burden back into your lap; you now need to show that I didn't look hard enough by pointing to the part I should have found. If it's true, it should be easy, but failure to do so, even when hidden behind uncivil claims of my laziness, amounts to a concession.
Since you have stated bluntly that you will not show me any evidence, I must accept your concession. If nobody else comes up with evidence, then I will make the agreed-upon (and you did agree by conceding) change. I hope this proves to be a valuable lesson to you on the nature of academic discussion and debate, and I hope it serves you well if you should enter the academic world.
And if I told you I was only an amateur proctologist, wouldn't you be just a little bit more reluctant to bend over and cough for me than if I were a licensed professional? Clearly, these oh-so-subtle qualifications are meaningful, and their omission can be deeply misleading. If we simply label Rand a philosopher without admitting that, no, contrary to a reader's reasonable expectations, she is not an academic philosopher in any sense, then we are being thoroughly dishonest.
Note that it's not enough to bring up trivially refutable arguments that have been made in the past. You need to present arguments that defeat my own, whether they're novel or not. All you're doing is showing that you've disagreed with my conclusion before, which is hardly newsworthy, while simultaneously demonstrating the patent inadequacy of prior counter-arguments. This does not suffice.
We all agree that she's not an academic philosopher, and yet that is the false impression the article used to convey by omitting an qualification to the term. If I say I'm a proctologist, you'd imagine that I'm licensed. If we say she's a philosopher, readers would reasonably expect her to be qualifed academically, which she is clearly not. You are conceding my point, yet edit-warring with the apparent intention of misleading the public. Please stop.
My argument is unrefuted by past or present counter-arguments. If there is a basis for rejecting it, you have yet to offer it, so I went ahead and made the change. You've had a day to come up with something -- anything -- and yet you have nothing. In addition, I would say that "non-academic" is a much nicer term than "amateur" and a clearer one than "lay", so I stand behind my article correction as being neutral and fair. If only people weren't such huge fans of her novels that they felt a need to lie about her qualifications...
You know, not everything is about you. Try to assume good faith instead of taking generalizations personally. By and large, the people who are censoring this article are doing so because they're partisans for Rand.
Right, and that's a false report, as I've explained. It is proper behavior to edit the article in a manner that is consistent with uncontroversial facts. It is uncontroversially true that Rand is not an academic philosopher, and yet that is the false impression that you apparently wish to convey. You've offered no sound argument in support of your edits, and yet you dare claim the moral high ground. I am amazed, but not surprised.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I support this addition because philosophers are normally understood to be highly-trained academics, and Rand was nothing like this. I suggest that you do a bit of research into who and what Rand was before you defend her status as a philosopher. I think you'll be surprised by what you find.
If you start with the very citation that's supposed to support her being called a philosopher, you'll find this quote: "Perhaps because she so eschewed academic philosophy, and because her works are rightly considered to be works of literature, Objectivist philosophy is regularly omitted from academic philosophy. Yet throughout literary academia, Ayn Rand is considered a philosopher. Her works merit consideration as works of philosophy in their own right."
Look at it carefully and you'll see that it admits explicitly that she is not an academic philosopher and that Objectivism is "regularly omitted from academic philosophy". It then goes on to say it's considered philosophy by literary academia, which is interesting but not particularly important. The very quote that's used to justify calling her a philosopher explicitly supports calling her a non-academic one. It's not that someone is shouting "but it's a fact". Instead, it's a fact that nobody, not even the author of the justfiying citation, can deny. As another person wrote, it's uncontroversial, so why is there such a controversy here?
I think it's an entirely safe precedent because we're bending over backwards when we pretend that Rand is any sort of philosopher at all. It's like that Simpsons joke where incompetent lawyer Lionel Hutz is asked if he has any evidence to offer and he responds with "Well, 'hearsay' is a type of evidence, right?". If "incompetent amateur" is a type of
philosopher, then Rand is a philosopher. But if we leave out the adjectives, we're just plain lying by letting people think she's a genuine, academic philosopher who's capable of, you know, actually reading and understanding Kant before declaring his ideas worthless. People might even think she was published in a peer-reviewed journal or that her ideas can even briefly withstand the level of criticism that professional philosophers are capable of leveling. I think that Rand is a very special case, and I don't see her setting any precedents that apply to people like Camus.
It's not POV; Edward proved it by quoting Hook. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 03:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Camus was a novelist but he was also an academic philosopher with an advanced degree in the subject, so he's totally unaffected by any precedent we set here. His status as a philosopher is uncontroversial, though it's not entirely clear whether it's fair to call him an existentialist. Rand is, according to the very quote used to justify calling her any sort of philosopher at all, not an academic philosopher.
There is no original research involved; it's spelled out right there in the quote and supported consistently by her uncontroversial biographical information. She can't possibly be an academic philosopher without at least one degree in the subject, and she clearly lacks even that. Calling her a philosopher without qualifying the term would be dishonest, as it would certainly mislead readers into thinking she was a philosopher the way Camus was. So far, nobody has offered anything that might even look like a credible rebuttal, much less a sound one, so I'm going to give my fellow editors a bit more time to prove that I'm not rushing anything, then reinstate the term "non-academic".
It's also come to my attention that certain individuals, unable to face my argument on its merits, are trying to use trickery to have me silenced. Recently, my edits were combined with those of another "anonymous" user to create the false appearance of 3RR violation, so as to justify blocking us both. Talk about original research! Still others have tried to equate me with the recently-banned Edward and with various editors who were banned long ago. These efforts are disingenuous and doomed to failure, as the the truth is entirely on my side. I wholeheartedly encourage any honest and transparent attempt to objectively test these claims, so that they can be dispensed with and we can move back to dealing with the real issues. You do yourself no favors by sinking so low. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 16:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The three-revert rule (often referred to as 3RR) is a policy that applies to all Wikipedians, and is intended to prevent edit warring: An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. A revert means undoing the actions of another editor, whether involving the same or different material each time.
In a bit of irony, my attempt to avoid personal insult by being nonspecific has led you to the mistaken belief that my comment was about you. Yes, you did make accusations of 3RR violations here, but while you were clearly mistaken in your interpretation of the rule (as administrators have officially confirmed), I also think it was an honest mistake, and it didn't go any further than this discussion forum so no great harm was done. This is not the case for Idag's submission of a formal request to have me blocked ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:69.121.221.174_and_User:65.170.159.12_reported_by_User:Idag_.28Result:_No_violation.29), which was based on combining my edits with that of another "anonymous" user make it seem as if I violated the rule. This was a dirty trick, and contributes to the atmosphere of hostility against editors who come to this article with hopes of restoring some measure of balance. In contrast, once I was warned of the rule, I made a point of not violating it, and I continue to follow the rules to the best of my understanding and to the best of my ability. In any case, I apologize if anything I said insulted you, as that was not my intent at all.
As it turns out, I've been repeatedly directed to look in the archives and histories to find a refutation against my argument. While I've found nothing even approaching such a thing, I did find ample examples of hostility by Randians against anyone whose suggestions appear to threaten their status quo. This is not a new thing, and it's certainly nothing I originated. I'd be thrilled if we could tone down the hostility (and I've even edited my own comments towards that direction), but I think we've been caught up in an ongoing problem: a history of violence against people like us. I suspect that there will be further efforts to falsely accuse us of rule violations, including the creation of false links among us and already-banned users. This is how things are done here, and to a large extent, it has worked for them. While I am, by nature and philosophy, a pacifist, I am not a fool, so I will not pretend that there is no conflict here, that there is no us and no them. I can only hope that rationality prevails over partisanship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 19:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Skomorokh has suggested that being a guest lecturer makes Rand an academic. It doesn't, but as far as I can tell, she was actually just a popular guest speaker, a role often filled by writers. This is consister with her being a professional writer and an amateur philosopher. Since Skomorokh's stated justification has been refuted, I've reverted the change, pending further justification here.
Even under my most charitable interpretation, I cannot arrive at a reading of your comment that renders it civil, true or constructive, so I can only acknowledge that you have written something and move on to more productive activities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 22:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Rand's view of charity has already been discussed. Cathy Young's article as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ayn_Rand/Archive_10#charity
Unless JReadings has something new to add, I'm removing the Cathy Young citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Endlessmike 888 ( talk • contribs) 12:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
You're just going to have to show me, right here, and then convince me and everyone else who's part of the consensus. Even if it was the consensus once, that doesn't mean that we're bound by that today.
She's a journalist who's published in Reason magazine. That makes her views of Rand notable. You may not agree with them, and you're certainly welcome to include other notable opinions for balance, but censoring her violates NPOV. I've been reading up on this, and I've yet to see a more clear example of NPOV violation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.111.29.12 ( talk) 15:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Idag, I'm less concerned about quantity than quality. If moving Objectivism sections out into the article for that topic helps improve the quality of this one, then I'm all for it. What matters to me is that, in all that shuffling around, we don't "accidentally" lose the sentences that provide balance and truth. It seems to me that some people here, while they may well be trying to maintain intellectual honesty, see the world through Rand-colored glasses and don't necessarily recognize their own bias. It's our job to help them keep this article credible by including all notable views, not just pro-Randian ones. In the meantime, we need to leave the balancing sentences in the article, so that they aren't misplaced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 16:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of format, it's often clearer to intermix opposing views, rather than relegating the opposition to a ghetto of sorts.
For some reason, the entire section on charity was removed, so I put it back.
Since nobody's even arguing against calling Rand a non-academic philosopher, I'm changing the article back. If you disagree, you have to discuss it here before making any changes, or I'm sure someone will revert you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 05:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Nobody has come up with any support at all for calling her an academic philosopher, and as that is the default meaning of the term, it is up to us to prevent misconceptions by making the article more clear. Also, you may want to pay closer attention to IP's. If you do, you'll find that this is not a solo effort.
If enough people call you a philosopher, you are one. Enough people call Rand a philosopher. Therefore, she is one. It's that simple. TallNapoleon ( talk) 07:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
That's actually not true, but it's also not important since I didn't say she wasn't a philosopher, I said she wasn't an academic philosopher. And it's not just me sayying so; the very citation we use to justify calling her a philosopher points out that she's not an academic one. The consensus is that we should call her a non-academic philosopher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 11:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a consensus of one, apparently. The "non-academic" label is ambiguous. "Non-academic" certainly does not mean "eschewed by academics." It could mean that she developed her philosophy outside of academia, which is hardly relevant, and certainly not a point to make in the first line of the article. Or it could mean that she practiced philosophy in a non-rigorous manner. That is a POV and also not fundamental to her status as a philosopher; that it is an opinion held by some is already covered in the article. Mwickens ( talk) 12:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I explained above that there are at least two editors who support this change, and I explain below why that number is irrelevant. For now, I'll focus on the fact that the quote that supports calling her a philosopher specifically mentions that she is not an academic philosopher. There is no ambiguity here because all of the definitions you suggested are factually correct. Again, this is in no way a matter of my opinion. That Objectivism is eschewed by academics is stated explicitly in the article, and supported by quotes from academics. That she developed Objectivism outside of academia and its rigorous standards is incontrovertible and quite relevant. That notable academics, such as Sidney Hook, have judged her philosophy to lack rigor is also beyond any doubt. No matter how you slice it, she is not an academic philosopher in any sense of the word, and it would be misleading to suggest otherwise even through omission.
No, consensus is not about opinion or majority. Nor is consensus the only thing that matters. More important is the requirement that we source all of our statements, never exceeding the source. The citation here says she is a non-academic philosopher, so implying otherwise is against Wikipedia rules, regardless of head count.
The article contains these snippets: - Perhaps because she so eschewed academic philosophy, and because her works are rightly considered to be works of literature, Objectivist philosophy is regularly omitted from academic philosophy. - Academic philosophers have generally dismissed Rand's ideas, and Atlas Shrugged in particular, as sophomoric, preachy, and unoriginal. - Rand has also been accused of misinterpreting the works of many of the philosophers that she criticized in her writing. - Objectivism is a fairly marginalized movement ... seen as being out of sync with the complex interrelationships and interconnected systems of modern life
Academic philosophers have academic degrees, teach accredited classes and are published with peer review. She fails on all three counts, which is why these quotes and others (included the suppressed Hook quotes) identify her as non-academic. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has even come close to putting for a credible argument for Rand being an academic philosopher, and some have openly conceded this matter. This is not the least bit controversial or open to interpretation or subject to the whims of the myth of consensus by majority. The only issue that remains is whether we placate the Randians by sweeping the truth under the carpet or we tell the truth instead. I suggest the latter. What do you think? - Bert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 21:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the detailed portion of the influences section. These are mentioned in the intro paragraph and are also detail in the main Objectivism article. It's a lot of overlap and isn't really necessary in terms of biography on Rand. Hope no one disagrees to strongly. It should make the article a bit tighter. Ethan a dawe ( talk) 15:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I made a comment here but apparently the server ate it. I am definitely in favour of a summary article on Rand's philosophical view, a la Philosophy of Max Stirner, Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche etc. The problem is, the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) article defines a philosophical position - the analogy with Nietzsche would be perspectivism, with Stirner ethical egoism. Many people may adopt, develop, refine a given position - even Objectivism. So if a new article was made on Rand's personal philosophy, or if the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) was turned into such an article, I would support a move of most of the philosophical (and social/political) content from this article. The problem is that we need an article describing Objectivism as a position and its intellectual development (incl. Neo-Objectivism, Branden's psychology, Open- and closed- Objectivism, the David Kelley crowd). Objectivist movement could be that article, but it's not explicitly philosophical. I'm unsure as to address this. Skomorokh 22:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems that, on the Internet, A is not always A. Today, my IP changed without warning, and it may well change again. Thus far, I've avoided giving my name, because it's irrelevant, and I have no intention of ever creating an account. However, I also have no intention of misleading anyone about my identity or violating 3RR. For this reason, I would like to acknowledge that what I've posted here has shown up under both 12.111.29.12 and 65.170.159.12. There is also another editor, posting from 69.121.221.174, who has sometimes agreed with me and has been mistaken for me by less observant people. From now on, to make this a little simpler, I will be signing my posts with my first name. If a new post doesn't have my name, it's not from me, and if I notice someone else trying to confuse things by signing my name, I will correct the problem. Remember, an IP is just a location, not a person. -Bert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.111.29.12 ( talk) 15:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
After due consideration, I'm going to have to turn down that suggestion. If you want to contact me, I'll be watching this talk page. - Bert 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 21:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I went to the Objectivism Reference Center at noblesoul.com, a pro-Objectivist web site known for having a modicum of intellectual honesty, including hosting a collection of criticisms (which the site runners earnestly believe to be refutable). Allow me to quote the opening paragraph from their criticism page, in full:
Despite coming from a notable, pro-Objectivist source, it clearly states that she is not an academic philosopher. This is spelled out in other reliable sources, and is also implicit in almost every discussion of how academic philosophy rejected her work. While she is often called a philosopher, she is not in any sense an academic philosopher. At this point, we have established this as an objective truth beyond any rational doubt. I will therefore not entertain any further counter-arguments that do not at least begin with a direct quote from an academic philosopher in which she is acknowledged as an academic philosopher. Since she is not an academic philosopher, I will once again repair the censorship to this article. I suggest that if you have even a shred of intellectual honesty, you must make your case here instead of trying to bully me with gratuitous reversions, empty accusations of vandalism and general incivility. This is an uncontroversial matter of fact; the ony controversy is why some people want to hide this fact. - Bert 21:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Rand is a very special case. For the most part, philosophers who aren't academic are too obscure to be notable enough to even show up on Wikipedia. They might have good ideas or silly ones, but pretty much nobody cares because philosophy is seen primarily as an academic discipline, and anyone who can't get the respect of academia is unlikely to get the attention of the public, with the notable exception of the New Agers. What makes Rand different is that she was able to parlay her success as a novelist into an influencial political/religious movement that pushed her personal philosophy. That makes her — and her popular philosophy — notable. If we simply call her a philosopher, the very fact that she is notable will lead readers to believe that she is an academic, but this is simply not the case. Burying that fact deep in the article is still misleading, because many people aren't ever going to read past the lead. It takes exactly one word — "non-academic" — to immediately dispell any misconceptions before they even have time to form, and I've seen no excuse for removing that word. Also, you can't call her a writer-philosopher or novelist-philosopher, since that would equate her with people like Camus, who have advanced academic degrees in the subject but prefer the medium of the novel. Rand is not Camus! The term "non-academic" is compact, accurate and neutral. It's just the truth, and the truth beats everything else. You're going to need to come up with a much more realistic objection, else people might think you're just interested in making Rand look better by lying about her, and we wouldn't want them to get that misconception, eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 02:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you really think there's any controversy over the simple fact that philosophy is an academic discipline, whose notable practioners are degreed and published? Be serious. For that matter, it is uncontested that a full and careful reading of the article would reveal that Rand is not an academic, so this is a bit of misdirection on your part. The issue is whether the article has a misleading lead, and I consider this issue settled since you don't address it.
Yes, I think your analysis of the status of Neitzche and Rand is accurate, and I have nothing to add to it. I do want to point out, though, that not only did academia reject Rand but Rand rejected academia in advance. It's not just that she happened not to be an academic, but that she was less a non-academic than an anti-academic, heaping scorn upon the philosophical establishment. To reiterate an argument found elsewhere on this page, the term "novelist-philospher" fits people like Camus well, but is misleading when applied to Rand, if only because being a novelist is not the same as being non- or anti-academic.
Non-academic philosopher is neutral and accurate. Novelist-philosopher and writer-philosopher offer little over the current "novelist and philosopher", but still make it sound as if Rand was a regular, academic philosopher. This is a non-neutral omission. - Bert 18:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not responsible for anyone but myself, so I don't really care what the original complaint was. I don't think anyone here is suggesting we stop calling Rand a philosopher, even if they think Rand is an incompetent philosopher. Someone already explained why you're not likely to find many notable non-academic philosophers, since non-academic philosophers tend to be obscure except maybe among New Agers, but if you ever do bump into an article on one, I fully encourage you to change it to be more consistent with this article. - Bert 18:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Bert evidently has a POV he wants to push, judging by his choice of words: "admitting", "vandal", etc. In fact counterarguments have been made, but he has simply dismissed them. My main counterargument is that it lowers the quality of the article (see my criteria listed above) to insert an unnecessary qualifier into the introductory lead. The nature of the philosophy and its relation to academia is sufficiently well covered further in the body of the article, and its relation to academia is a secondary attribute that does not belong in the lead-in text where only primary attributes are summarized.
How kind of you to "fix" my indentation without addressing my arguments. It is this commitment to quality that marks your tenure as a Wikipedia editor. - Bert 20:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Bert, I fail to understand why you believe it is so important to specify Rand as a non-academic philosopher. She was a philosopher, and indeed she made a living from her philosophy, thus making her a professional philosopher. Her relationship with academia, or lack thereof, is already explicated in the article. You're insistence on the inclusion of the term "non-academic" in the introduction gives undue weight and is designed to discredit Rand's philosophy, which is very NNPOV. The consensus is against you; please don't try and make this into an edit war. TallNapoleon ( talk) 20:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Way I count it up, I don't see either side of this with a clear consensus, not that consensus matters when it comes to violating the rules of the game. Since everyone now admits that Rand was a non-academic philosopher, your conspiracy theory about evil Rand-haters wanting to discredit her pretty much explains why you're edit warring to hide a fact you admit. It's not that you think it's unimportant, it's that you realize just how important this fact is and that's precisely why you want to hide it. I'm not going to let you, and neither are the others who are supporting the honest version of this article. Deal with it; that's my consensus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 00:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
To put this debate to rest once and for all, please state whether you support or oppose adding anything to the introduction about Rand being a "non-academic" philosopher (simply state whether you "Support" or "Oppose" and provide a one-sentence reason). To prevent possible sock puppets, anonymous IPs who have not made ANY edits to this article before today (April 25, 2008) will not be counted in the vote:
Oppose: Placing a qualification in the introduction would violate WP:Undue Weight. Idag ( talk) 00:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: Placing a qualification in the introduction would violate WP:Undue Weight. Ethan a dawe ( talk) 00:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: WP:Undue Weight, no precedent elsewhere. TallNapoleon ( talk) 00:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: WP:Undue Weight, would imply a controversial POV (lack of rigor) that can't simply be stated as fact. Mwickens ( talk) 11:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose as completely irrelevant given the long history of highly respected mainstream philosophers outside the academy, and undue weight as above. Skomorokh 11:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Support: its important and should be included - Edward G. Nilges
Abstain: I'm not going to participate in a pretend consensus where all the Rand fans vote to make Rand look as good as possible, no matter what the facts are. All of them get one vote in total, since they're a hive mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 21:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
After this consensus debate closes, I will archive this talk page; it has gotten ridiculously long.
I have removed the recent comments of Edward G. Nilges. Before anyone cries foul it needs to be stated that he has an account under the name spinoza1111. He has an indefinite block for being rude http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Spinoza1111 If he wants to post on wikipedia, he needs to get unblocked. Using his IP address to post is a direct violation of wikipedia policy as he is dodging the block. He lost the privledge of posting and editing for his behavior. Removing his posts is not censorship, it is merely enforcing the rules of this site. If he gets his account unblocked I will not delete any posts he makes. Ethan a dawe ( talk) 22:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The article edit protection has interfered with making further editorial improvements to the article. The following should be non-contentious:
{{
editprotected}}
In the
Ayn Rand article's section "Objectivist movement" section, somebody added a "Fact" tag (requesting a reference) to the first sentence in the fourth paragraph: "After several years, Rand's close relationship with the much younger Branden turned into a romantic affair, with the consent of their spouses." There are several possible references for this; changing the Fact tag to the following should suffice:
<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/bio/biofaq.html#Q4.4 | title="Ayn Rand Biographical FAQ: Did Rand have an affair with Nathaniel Branden?" | accessdate=2008-04-28}}</ref>
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Under this heading the author writes: "Atlas Shrugged has been cited in numerous interviews as the book that most influenced the subject.[27][28]", but does not identify "the subject" (which I assue is Objectivism). Needs a minor edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.225.3 ( talk) 18:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
"In 1963, Rand wrote an essay titled "The Goal of My Writing" in which she states the goal of her fiction is to project her vision of an ideal man: not man as he is, but man as he might and ought to be. Her 1969 book, The Romantic Manifesto: A Philosophy of Literature, explores more fully the differences between Rand's aesthetic views and those of the academic mainstream." This passage is not a criticism of Rand's work and should either be moved to another section of the article or deleted altogether. 70.21.38.201 ( talk) 06:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Did Rand ever officially renounce Judaism or convert to another religion? Because if she did not, then she is a Russian Jewish writer. 70.21.38.201 ( talk) 07:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
1) In Judaism, someone born as a jew is in principle a jew forever, even renouncing the faith. So this is immaterial; 2) "Jewish" in the wikipedia categories that you mentioned or that had recently been removed from the article, is actually more of an ETHNIC than a religious classification, so much so that they include professed atheists and sometimes even converts. And there is no doubt that she was ethnically a jew. So, what is the problem with including Rand in these categories? Justice III ( talk) 21:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Rand didn't "convert to another religion", because she never professed any religion, insofar as the historical record shows, and as an adult, she definitely "renounced" all religions, as well as all forms of racism and of classification on the basis of accidents of ancestry. Rand did not call herself Jewish, and nobody who knew her would have dared to call her Jewish. — DAGwyn ( talk) 05:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The second half of Cult Criticism violated both WP:POV and WP:Sources and when I fixed it, someone reverted it for "POV Vandalism". What I object to is the following passage in the Cult Criticism section: "The Biographical FAQ of the Objectivism Reference Center website discusses these allegations and refers to a letter in which Rand replies to a fan who wrote her offering cult-like allegiance by declaring "A blind follower is precisely what my philosophy condemns and what I reject. Objectivism is not a mystic cult"".
What this is essentially saying is that in response to accusations that objectivism is a cult, objectivists have stated that they are not a cult. This is obviously not a reliable third party source as required by WP:Sources, so can we either find a better source for this or delete it? 70.21.38.201 ( talk) 03:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I say we should get rid of the section. While it is certainly true that some followers of Rand have acted like cultists, it is equally true that many others in no way qualify as cultists. This "cult" accusation primarily serves as a way for detractors to denigrate Rand's ideas by associating them with an irrelevancy rather than addressing the ideas on their merits. That might be a popular political ploy, but it's not a valid form of criticism. I note that another recent posting here similarly proposes to eliminate a response to criticism of Rand's literary aesthetic, and there have been other suggestions that the article must not contain Rand's own statements, but only those of "third-party" commentators, who as it happens are largely allied against Rand. I find that a willful misreading of WP policies. Certainly Rand's denunciation of a cult following is important information concerning this topic, and there simply is no better source for her views on this than her own statement. — DAGwyn ( talk) 05:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is my opinion as a neutral third party: third party sources are not necessary when the article is quoting the opinion of a particular individual. Since the section is dealing with the perception of Rand's following as being a "cult", Rand's own personal thoughts on this are very much relevant. However, the sentence itself needs to be re-written so it's more NPOV. (language such as "However" and "Rand itself" are not needed). -- MisterHand ( Talk to the Hand| Contribs) 17:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The pronunciation key needs a normal dictionary-like pronunciation on how to pronounce her first name, as opposed to the current IPA guide, which, statistically speaking, nobody understands and nobody uses. Tempshill ( talk) 17:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I put a fact tag on this because although there is a citation that gives the 500,000 number, it comes from an interested party. The statistic needs a different source if one can be found. Tempshill ( talk) 17:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
User:DAGwyn, maybe you don't understand what I'm getting at. In the revision note you said
No reason to doubt cited reference, which is supported by others (e.g. Economist in 1991, also in article). Zogby info relevant to stated poll challenge. Don't clutter text with ref info.
This is where you added back the statement:
The Zogby poll result can be checked by simple arithmetic: Roughly 8 million copies of Atlas Shrugged had been sold in America by that time; there are around 200 million adult Americans who might be considered the sample space; if 2 people read each copy (fewer than for most magazines), then 8% is the right fraction.
In the article I see the reference to the Economist but it only talks about the number of sold copies. That's fine, but I'm more concerned about the "simple arithmetic". If you are performing this arithmetic then it's considered original research. Otherwise you need to cite your source for this statement. Even if your self-performed calculation was allowed, you still don't cite your source for "200 million adult Americans who might be considered the sample space", and "fewer than for most magazines".
If you still disagree and think your statement is allowable without citing the (non-original) source, then we'll have to go the admins. -- WayneMokane ( talk) 21:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
As much as most editors on here love Rand, the latest edits to the Cult Criticism section are ridiculous. Regardless of your views on Rand, it is a fact that a number of prominent figures have accused Objectivism of being a cult. It is our job to accurately represent their views. Thus, when a Cult Criticism section has a one sentence blurb about their views followed by a giant block quote that presents a counter-argument to their views, that's just a tad unbalanced. See WP:Undue Weight Again, I don't care how much you love Rand, your insistence on maintaining bias in an ENCYCLOPEDIA article is keeping this from becoming a better article. Let the facts stand on their own without watering down the facts that you don't like. Idag ( talk) 01:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
←From 3O: According to WP:UNDUE, all viewpoints should be fairly represented. At present the rebuttal to the cult criticism appears to be fairly represented, but the actual cult criticism isn't. Increasing the length of the cult criticism section to be at least as long as its rebuttal would properly satisfy WP:UNDUE and the rest of WP:NPOV. Might I suggest inserting a longer summary or even a quotation from one of these critics?
"Her influential and often controversial ideas have attracted both enthusiastic admirers and scathing denunciation."
The word "admirers" used to say "admiration". Why was it changed to a noun? I don't see what advantage the change confers upon the sentence; in fact, it seems to not read as smoothly.
So I find that a lot of that list appears to be apocryphal. I checked every entry in that list who I was not sure about, and if their article did not mention Ayn Rand, I removed them from the list. Michael Paxton does not have a Wikipedia Article, ergo I don't think he's terribly notable. I also removed the soap opera star--that's really just not terribly interesting or important. A lot of the Objectivist thinkers mentioned in the original article, such as Cline, the Brandens, etc. are simply not that well known--having them in a list with celebrities and politicians strikes me as dubious, which is why I moved them out to a philosopher's list--although I suppose technically not all of them are philosophers, which is why I renamed it to "philosophers and thinkers". TallNapoleon ( talk) 19:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
There have been enough flame wars on this talk page and it needs to stop. I will delete *any* further attempts to restart them or replies thereto myself. TallNapoleon ( talk) 01:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Added the following quote and description of the book from Aynrand.org, do this mentioned of Soviet tyranny violate wiki NPOV policy?: "The most autobiographical of her novels, it was based on her years under Soviet tyranny." [1] It is me i think ( talk) 04:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
This article is very long as many have noted. I think we could reduce it by shrinking a lot of the Objectivist philosophy and Objectivist Movement parts. There are separate artcile for those that are better places for a lot of the material. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Ethan a dawe ( talk) 22:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
A user asked why we should keep reliably sourced material per WP:ATT that he personally doesn't like? A strange question, I thought. The obvious answer would be simply that the quote was attributed to a reliable source and that one crisp sentence outlining Boisvert's opinion of Ayn Rand in the Criticism section of this article is neither overloading the article per WP:UNDUE nor providing any other red flags per Wikipedia policy. That should be enough for anyone. But in case it's not, students of academic philosophy might remember Raymond Boisvert for his book John Dewey: Rethinking Our Time(Albany: State University of New York Press, 1998), which was favorably reviewed in The Philosophical Quarterly (Vol. 49, No. 195 (Apr., 1999), pp. 270-272) and Philosophy East and West (Vol. 48, No. 4 (Oct., 1998), pp. 671). Best regards, J Readings ( talk) 23:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:ATT does not say that the only criterion for including text is that it be properly sourced. (It asserts essentially the converse.) So far as I know, nobody has challenged the sourcing. What has been challenged is whether Boisvert's comment adds value to the article, which is already too long. The cited position doesn't appear to represent a commonly expressed view in the literature, so why should his personal opinion be recognized here? In fact there is an easy counterargument, namely "The greater the complexity of life, the greater the value in simplifying principles." (There is substantial philosophical tradition along those lines.) Without the opinion having entered into that sort of academic debate, why should it be granted special recognition? It sure smacks of unsubstantiated POV, and doesn't help the reader understand anything. — DAGwyn ( talk) 15:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
DAGwyn, you appear to be fairly new to Wikipedia, so it's not my intention to WP:BITE. In fact, I admire your gumption on what you believe to be worthy of inclusion in this article (especially the criticism section), but instead of engaging in an edit war, a more diplomatic (not to mention persuasive) approach would be to bring your concerns to the talk page in the form of an amicable discussion of policy. Constantly reverting the reliably sourced text because you happen to disagree with it, not only creates disruption, it resolves nothing. Speaking of disruption and policies, you currently have reverted that cited third-party text four times within a 24-hour period, thus breaking WP:3RR. I understand that mistakes sometimes happen and you probably just didn't realize your mistake, and to be honest, I don't want to have to report you, which I guarantee will lead to you being blocked for at least 24 hours. If you self-revert right now, I'll let it pass without a second thought. Please let me know what you want to do on that score. As for the substance, I'm at a loss to why you are dead-set against such a small sentence being added, when you're real concern (assuming you're sincere) should be on removing the reams of unsourced material in the earlier as part of an effort to decide what stays and what goes. I would be happy to discuss those areas in another section, if you'd prefer. J Readings ( talk) 17:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
He appears to be speaking as if he owns the article personally, so his subjective opinion is more important than the objective facts. As part of correcting other defects, I will make sure that your improvements are not lost in the shuffle. - Bert 20:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.111.29.12 ( talk)
After consulting with and on advice of admin I have removed all of Edwards comments and related ones. All further will also be deleted. he is a blocked user. Ethan a dawe ( talk) 02:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It's bad enough that you keep deleting Edward's comments, but it looks like you wiped out some other inconvenient truths while you were at it. In specific, you erased this exchange:
The neutral solution is to rephrase it so that the article simply says that she considered herself a philosopher and that some people agreed while others disagreed, without expressing a judgement. Then, by referencing some of the different views as to her status as a philosopher, citing notable figures on all sides of the issue, the article can provide enough information for the readers to decide for themselves. Of course, it is extremely relevant a number of people who are unambiguously philosophers, including Edward's Hook, decided she wasn't. After all, who better than philosophers to decide who qualifies as a philosopher? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 20:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I looked there and did not see any sound counter-arguments. Gesturing in the direction isn't going to cut it. If you think you have a refutation, you're going to need to explicitly present it. Failure to do so constitutes a concession.
Not only am I going to rescue the words you erased, I'm going to jump into this fray to remind Dawe that no debate on Wikipedia content is ever closed, at least not until Wikipedia 1.0 is shipped. Your claim that there was some discussion in the distant past carries no weight, even if it were supported by evidence instead of lazy hand-waving.
That's because we are not bound by its conclusions today; the current consensus controls the content, not some arbitrarily chosen historical one that favors your biases. Everytime someone new comes here and questions the content, you need to fight all over again for your view, and you need to win again. You don't get to just declare victory without ever entering the field of battle.
If you were right the in the first place, then all you'd have to do is repeat those sound arguments, trot out the irrefutable citations and bowl us over with the force of your scholarship. If you weren't, and you only won by exhausting, bullying or assasinating your opponents (alas poor Edward, I knew him not at all), then the consensus changes and the article changes.
I second the challenge: show that Rand is considered a philosopher by philosophical academia, not merely literary academia. If you can't do this, then I'll personally change the article to read "amateur philosopher".
Hey, I already explained myself, so I'm not going to waste my time repeating it all over again. You show me the arguments right here and we'll see if we can come to a consensus. Otherwise, you've done nothing to refute the fact that the citation for calling her a philosopher is invalid.
Good faith doesn't mean waiting forever and it doesn't mean accepting hand-waving and "go fish" in the place of rational argumentation. It's not my job to find counter-arguments against my argument; that's your job and if you can't do it, then you fail. Time's a-wasting.
and that's fine, but it's not mine and not that of many, many, many other people. Should we now review all philosophers posted on Wikipedia to determine whether they fit your criteria, and re-label everything according to Hook, or whomever? The answer is clearly NO. Philosophy, like art, is in the eye of the beholder. You may believe that a blob of paint is a work of art and I might believe that it's pig crap - but I certainly wouldn't edit the page to state that the piece of art is not art, because I have a source that defines art by a different standard. Is this coming across to you? I doubt it. Grazen ( talk) 15:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I read this twice and I didn't see any place where you actually addressed the argument. Please try again, only this time, don't miss the target. To remind you, Kant and Nietzsche, while they may be completely wrong on everything they ever wrote, are generally accepted within the academic philosophical community as philosophers, and rather significant ones at that.
The academic philosophical community was defined earlier in terms of achieving degrees from and teaching at accredited institutions. For example, Alvin Plantinga has a PhD in Philosophy from Yale, teaches the subject at Notre Dame and has been published in numerous peer-reviewed philosophical journals. He is unambiguously a philosopher, even though his philosophical stances amount to nothing more than Catholic apologetics. In contrast, whatever value there might be to Rand's ideas, she has none of these qualifications and simply fails to be a philosopher, as much as Plantinga fails to be a medical doctor or even a plumber. There's no shame in not being something, only in pretending to what you're not.
At this point, I don't believe this is in any way ambiguous or genuinely controversial. In fact, I don't see any credible alternative, and you're not proposing one above. Do you actually have an argument here or just an assertion? Let me know immediately.
It's good to have friends. Maybe you can be his friend by doing him a favor: help him find some sort of credible definition for the status of philosopher. I suggest this because, right now, he's got nothing and I just called his bluff. It would be in your rational self-interest to bail him out, if you can.
Rand is not. Instead, people like Hook question whether she's any sort of philosopher, and it's doesn't seem that she met any of the basic requirements, such as holding a degree, teaching the subject at an accredited college or getting published in a peer-reviewed journal. All this points to the fact that she's simply not a philosopher. She's a novelist who touches on philosophical (and, to be clear, mostly political) topics in an amateurish and unprofessional way.
She may be right or she may be wrong, but she's not a philosopher, and it's not a neutral POV to blandly claim otherwise. Please come back with evidence that addresses these points, or I will charitably assume you have none.
I can't see what's not there and I won't accept the blame for your inability to defend your views on their own merit. The real red herring here is that you are applying an irrelevant standard. If I said that Hippocrates, the father of medicine and originator of the oath that bears his name, wasn't really a doctor because he didn't have a license to practice in California in 2008, that would be patently absurd. It's just as absurd to say that Rand would have qualified as a philosopher under the standards we apply to Socrates. We need to apply only the standard that is most relevant to the time and place, not go fishing for a favorable venue, as you have done. In any case, the article doesn't suffer from bloat, it suffers from one-sidedness, so any attempt to shrink it by making it even less balances is unacceptable and will not be allowed. You have in no way made your case, nor have you refuted mine. Please address the argument.
Ayn Rand made substantial income as a novelist, not a philosopher. Philosophers write peer-reviewed papers that contribute to the academic field and are paid to teach in accredited institutions. Rand made some money as a professional speaker, and her writings were never even submitted for peer review in relevant journals. Applying the principle of charity, the best you can possibly hope to accomplish with this line of argument is to support the idea that Rand was an amateur philosopher, in much the same way that someone who fixes their stopped-up toilet is an amateur plumber. You have failed to address the argument against calling her a philosopher plain and simple, without qualifying the term with a disclaimer.
I believe that I've raised a new point that is not addressed in the archives. If I'm mistaken, you'll need to explcitly point out where they are, rather than waving your hand. Another maxim is that failure to address an argument amounts to admitting that it is correct.
It's impossible for me to prove that something is absent, other than to point out that I looked but did not find. This tosses the burden back into your lap; you now need to show that I didn't look hard enough by pointing to the part I should have found. If it's true, it should be easy, but failure to do so, even when hidden behind uncivil claims of my laziness, amounts to a concession.
Since you have stated bluntly that you will not show me any evidence, I must accept your concession. If nobody else comes up with evidence, then I will make the agreed-upon (and you did agree by conceding) change. I hope this proves to be a valuable lesson to you on the nature of academic discussion and debate, and I hope it serves you well if you should enter the academic world.
And if I told you I was only an amateur proctologist, wouldn't you be just a little bit more reluctant to bend over and cough for me than if I were a licensed professional? Clearly, these oh-so-subtle qualifications are meaningful, and their omission can be deeply misleading. If we simply label Rand a philosopher without admitting that, no, contrary to a reader's reasonable expectations, she is not an academic philosopher in any sense, then we are being thoroughly dishonest.
Note that it's not enough to bring up trivially refutable arguments that have been made in the past. You need to present arguments that defeat my own, whether they're novel or not. All you're doing is showing that you've disagreed with my conclusion before, which is hardly newsworthy, while simultaneously demonstrating the patent inadequacy of prior counter-arguments. This does not suffice.
We all agree that she's not an academic philosopher, and yet that is the false impression the article used to convey by omitting an qualification to the term. If I say I'm a proctologist, you'd imagine that I'm licensed. If we say she's a philosopher, readers would reasonably expect her to be qualifed academically, which she is clearly not. You are conceding my point, yet edit-warring with the apparent intention of misleading the public. Please stop.
My argument is unrefuted by past or present counter-arguments. If there is a basis for rejecting it, you have yet to offer it, so I went ahead and made the change. You've had a day to come up with something -- anything -- and yet you have nothing. In addition, I would say that "non-academic" is a much nicer term than "amateur" and a clearer one than "lay", so I stand behind my article correction as being neutral and fair. If only people weren't such huge fans of her novels that they felt a need to lie about her qualifications...
You know, not everything is about you. Try to assume good faith instead of taking generalizations personally. By and large, the people who are censoring this article are doing so because they're partisans for Rand.
Right, and that's a false report, as I've explained. It is proper behavior to edit the article in a manner that is consistent with uncontroversial facts. It is uncontroversially true that Rand is not an academic philosopher, and yet that is the false impression that you apparently wish to convey. You've offered no sound argument in support of your edits, and yet you dare claim the moral high ground. I am amazed, but not surprised.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I support this addition because philosophers are normally understood to be highly-trained academics, and Rand was nothing like this. I suggest that you do a bit of research into who and what Rand was before you defend her status as a philosopher. I think you'll be surprised by what you find.
If you start with the very citation that's supposed to support her being called a philosopher, you'll find this quote: "Perhaps because she so eschewed academic philosophy, and because her works are rightly considered to be works of literature, Objectivist philosophy is regularly omitted from academic philosophy. Yet throughout literary academia, Ayn Rand is considered a philosopher. Her works merit consideration as works of philosophy in their own right."
Look at it carefully and you'll see that it admits explicitly that she is not an academic philosopher and that Objectivism is "regularly omitted from academic philosophy". It then goes on to say it's considered philosophy by literary academia, which is interesting but not particularly important. The very quote that's used to justify calling her a philosopher explicitly supports calling her a non-academic one. It's not that someone is shouting "but it's a fact". Instead, it's a fact that nobody, not even the author of the justfiying citation, can deny. As another person wrote, it's uncontroversial, so why is there such a controversy here?
I think it's an entirely safe precedent because we're bending over backwards when we pretend that Rand is any sort of philosopher at all. It's like that Simpsons joke where incompetent lawyer Lionel Hutz is asked if he has any evidence to offer and he responds with "Well, 'hearsay' is a type of evidence, right?". If "incompetent amateur" is a type of
philosopher, then Rand is a philosopher. But if we leave out the adjectives, we're just plain lying by letting people think she's a genuine, academic philosopher who's capable of, you know, actually reading and understanding Kant before declaring his ideas worthless. People might even think she was published in a peer-reviewed journal or that her ideas can even briefly withstand the level of criticism that professional philosophers are capable of leveling. I think that Rand is a very special case, and I don't see her setting any precedents that apply to people like Camus.
It's not POV; Edward proved it by quoting Hook. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 03:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Camus was a novelist but he was also an academic philosopher with an advanced degree in the subject, so he's totally unaffected by any precedent we set here. His status as a philosopher is uncontroversial, though it's not entirely clear whether it's fair to call him an existentialist. Rand is, according to the very quote used to justify calling her any sort of philosopher at all, not an academic philosopher.
There is no original research involved; it's spelled out right there in the quote and supported consistently by her uncontroversial biographical information. She can't possibly be an academic philosopher without at least one degree in the subject, and she clearly lacks even that. Calling her a philosopher without qualifying the term would be dishonest, as it would certainly mislead readers into thinking she was a philosopher the way Camus was. So far, nobody has offered anything that might even look like a credible rebuttal, much less a sound one, so I'm going to give my fellow editors a bit more time to prove that I'm not rushing anything, then reinstate the term "non-academic".
It's also come to my attention that certain individuals, unable to face my argument on its merits, are trying to use trickery to have me silenced. Recently, my edits were combined with those of another "anonymous" user to create the false appearance of 3RR violation, so as to justify blocking us both. Talk about original research! Still others have tried to equate me with the recently-banned Edward and with various editors who were banned long ago. These efforts are disingenuous and doomed to failure, as the the truth is entirely on my side. I wholeheartedly encourage any honest and transparent attempt to objectively test these claims, so that they can be dispensed with and we can move back to dealing with the real issues. You do yourself no favors by sinking so low. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 16:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The three-revert rule (often referred to as 3RR) is a policy that applies to all Wikipedians, and is intended to prevent edit warring: An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. A revert means undoing the actions of another editor, whether involving the same or different material each time.
In a bit of irony, my attempt to avoid personal insult by being nonspecific has led you to the mistaken belief that my comment was about you. Yes, you did make accusations of 3RR violations here, but while you were clearly mistaken in your interpretation of the rule (as administrators have officially confirmed), I also think it was an honest mistake, and it didn't go any further than this discussion forum so no great harm was done. This is not the case for Idag's submission of a formal request to have me blocked ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:69.121.221.174_and_User:65.170.159.12_reported_by_User:Idag_.28Result:_No_violation.29), which was based on combining my edits with that of another "anonymous" user make it seem as if I violated the rule. This was a dirty trick, and contributes to the atmosphere of hostility against editors who come to this article with hopes of restoring some measure of balance. In contrast, once I was warned of the rule, I made a point of not violating it, and I continue to follow the rules to the best of my understanding and to the best of my ability. In any case, I apologize if anything I said insulted you, as that was not my intent at all.
As it turns out, I've been repeatedly directed to look in the archives and histories to find a refutation against my argument. While I've found nothing even approaching such a thing, I did find ample examples of hostility by Randians against anyone whose suggestions appear to threaten their status quo. This is not a new thing, and it's certainly nothing I originated. I'd be thrilled if we could tone down the hostility (and I've even edited my own comments towards that direction), but I think we've been caught up in an ongoing problem: a history of violence against people like us. I suspect that there will be further efforts to falsely accuse us of rule violations, including the creation of false links among us and already-banned users. This is how things are done here, and to a large extent, it has worked for them. While I am, by nature and philosophy, a pacifist, I am not a fool, so I will not pretend that there is no conflict here, that there is no us and no them. I can only hope that rationality prevails over partisanship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 19:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Skomorokh has suggested that being a guest lecturer makes Rand an academic. It doesn't, but as far as I can tell, she was actually just a popular guest speaker, a role often filled by writers. This is consister with her being a professional writer and an amateur philosopher. Since Skomorokh's stated justification has been refuted, I've reverted the change, pending further justification here.
Even under my most charitable interpretation, I cannot arrive at a reading of your comment that renders it civil, true or constructive, so I can only acknowledge that you have written something and move on to more productive activities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 22:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Rand's view of charity has already been discussed. Cathy Young's article as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ayn_Rand/Archive_10#charity
Unless JReadings has something new to add, I'm removing the Cathy Young citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Endlessmike 888 ( talk • contribs) 12:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
You're just going to have to show me, right here, and then convince me and everyone else who's part of the consensus. Even if it was the consensus once, that doesn't mean that we're bound by that today.
She's a journalist who's published in Reason magazine. That makes her views of Rand notable. You may not agree with them, and you're certainly welcome to include other notable opinions for balance, but censoring her violates NPOV. I've been reading up on this, and I've yet to see a more clear example of NPOV violation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.111.29.12 ( talk) 15:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Idag, I'm less concerned about quantity than quality. If moving Objectivism sections out into the article for that topic helps improve the quality of this one, then I'm all for it. What matters to me is that, in all that shuffling around, we don't "accidentally" lose the sentences that provide balance and truth. It seems to me that some people here, while they may well be trying to maintain intellectual honesty, see the world through Rand-colored glasses and don't necessarily recognize their own bias. It's our job to help them keep this article credible by including all notable views, not just pro-Randian ones. In the meantime, we need to leave the balancing sentences in the article, so that they aren't misplaced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 16:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of format, it's often clearer to intermix opposing views, rather than relegating the opposition to a ghetto of sorts.
For some reason, the entire section on charity was removed, so I put it back.
Since nobody's even arguing against calling Rand a non-academic philosopher, I'm changing the article back. If you disagree, you have to discuss it here before making any changes, or I'm sure someone will revert you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 05:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Nobody has come up with any support at all for calling her an academic philosopher, and as that is the default meaning of the term, it is up to us to prevent misconceptions by making the article more clear. Also, you may want to pay closer attention to IP's. If you do, you'll find that this is not a solo effort.
If enough people call you a philosopher, you are one. Enough people call Rand a philosopher. Therefore, she is one. It's that simple. TallNapoleon ( talk) 07:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
That's actually not true, but it's also not important since I didn't say she wasn't a philosopher, I said she wasn't an academic philosopher. And it's not just me sayying so; the very citation we use to justify calling her a philosopher points out that she's not an academic one. The consensus is that we should call her a non-academic philosopher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 11:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a consensus of one, apparently. The "non-academic" label is ambiguous. "Non-academic" certainly does not mean "eschewed by academics." It could mean that she developed her philosophy outside of academia, which is hardly relevant, and certainly not a point to make in the first line of the article. Or it could mean that she practiced philosophy in a non-rigorous manner. That is a POV and also not fundamental to her status as a philosopher; that it is an opinion held by some is already covered in the article. Mwickens ( talk) 12:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I explained above that there are at least two editors who support this change, and I explain below why that number is irrelevant. For now, I'll focus on the fact that the quote that supports calling her a philosopher specifically mentions that she is not an academic philosopher. There is no ambiguity here because all of the definitions you suggested are factually correct. Again, this is in no way a matter of my opinion. That Objectivism is eschewed by academics is stated explicitly in the article, and supported by quotes from academics. That she developed Objectivism outside of academia and its rigorous standards is incontrovertible and quite relevant. That notable academics, such as Sidney Hook, have judged her philosophy to lack rigor is also beyond any doubt. No matter how you slice it, she is not an academic philosopher in any sense of the word, and it would be misleading to suggest otherwise even through omission.
No, consensus is not about opinion or majority. Nor is consensus the only thing that matters. More important is the requirement that we source all of our statements, never exceeding the source. The citation here says she is a non-academic philosopher, so implying otherwise is against Wikipedia rules, regardless of head count.
The article contains these snippets: - Perhaps because she so eschewed academic philosophy, and because her works are rightly considered to be works of literature, Objectivist philosophy is regularly omitted from academic philosophy. - Academic philosophers have generally dismissed Rand's ideas, and Atlas Shrugged in particular, as sophomoric, preachy, and unoriginal. - Rand has also been accused of misinterpreting the works of many of the philosophers that she criticized in her writing. - Objectivism is a fairly marginalized movement ... seen as being out of sync with the complex interrelationships and interconnected systems of modern life
Academic philosophers have academic degrees, teach accredited classes and are published with peer review. She fails on all three counts, which is why these quotes and others (included the suppressed Hook quotes) identify her as non-academic. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has even come close to putting for a credible argument for Rand being an academic philosopher, and some have openly conceded this matter. This is not the least bit controversial or open to interpretation or subject to the whims of the myth of consensus by majority. The only issue that remains is whether we placate the Randians by sweeping the truth under the carpet or we tell the truth instead. I suggest the latter. What do you think? - Bert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 21:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the detailed portion of the influences section. These are mentioned in the intro paragraph and are also detail in the main Objectivism article. It's a lot of overlap and isn't really necessary in terms of biography on Rand. Hope no one disagrees to strongly. It should make the article a bit tighter. Ethan a dawe ( talk) 15:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I made a comment here but apparently the server ate it. I am definitely in favour of a summary article on Rand's philosophical view, a la Philosophy of Max Stirner, Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche etc. The problem is, the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) article defines a philosophical position - the analogy with Nietzsche would be perspectivism, with Stirner ethical egoism. Many people may adopt, develop, refine a given position - even Objectivism. So if a new article was made on Rand's personal philosophy, or if the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) was turned into such an article, I would support a move of most of the philosophical (and social/political) content from this article. The problem is that we need an article describing Objectivism as a position and its intellectual development (incl. Neo-Objectivism, Branden's psychology, Open- and closed- Objectivism, the David Kelley crowd). Objectivist movement could be that article, but it's not explicitly philosophical. I'm unsure as to address this. Skomorokh 22:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems that, on the Internet, A is not always A. Today, my IP changed without warning, and it may well change again. Thus far, I've avoided giving my name, because it's irrelevant, and I have no intention of ever creating an account. However, I also have no intention of misleading anyone about my identity or violating 3RR. For this reason, I would like to acknowledge that what I've posted here has shown up under both 12.111.29.12 and 65.170.159.12. There is also another editor, posting from 69.121.221.174, who has sometimes agreed with me and has been mistaken for me by less observant people. From now on, to make this a little simpler, I will be signing my posts with my first name. If a new post doesn't have my name, it's not from me, and if I notice someone else trying to confuse things by signing my name, I will correct the problem. Remember, an IP is just a location, not a person. -Bert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.111.29.12 ( talk) 15:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
After due consideration, I'm going to have to turn down that suggestion. If you want to contact me, I'll be watching this talk page. - Bert 65.170.159.12 ( talk) 21:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I went to the Objectivism Reference Center at noblesoul.com, a pro-Objectivist web site known for having a modicum of intellectual honesty, including hosting a collection of criticisms (which the site runners earnestly believe to be refutable). Allow me to quote the opening paragraph from their criticism page, in full:
Despite coming from a notable, pro-Objectivist source, it clearly states that she is not an academic philosopher. This is spelled out in other reliable sources, and is also implicit in almost every discussion of how academic philosophy rejected her work. While she is often called a philosopher, she is not in any sense an academic philosopher. At this point, we have established this as an objective truth beyond any rational doubt. I will therefore not entertain any further counter-arguments that do not at least begin with a direct quote from an academic philosopher in which she is acknowledged as an academic philosopher. Since she is not an academic philosopher, I will once again repair the censorship to this article. I suggest that if you have even a shred of intellectual honesty, you must make your case here instead of trying to bully me with gratuitous reversions, empty accusations of vandalism and general incivility. This is an uncontroversial matter of fact; the ony controversy is why some people want to hide this fact. - Bert 21:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Rand is a very special case. For the most part, philosophers who aren't academic are too obscure to be notable enough to even show up on Wikipedia. They might have good ideas or silly ones, but pretty much nobody cares because philosophy is seen primarily as an academic discipline, and anyone who can't get the respect of academia is unlikely to get the attention of the public, with the notable exception of the New Agers. What makes Rand different is that she was able to parlay her success as a novelist into an influencial political/religious movement that pushed her personal philosophy. That makes her — and her popular philosophy — notable. If we simply call her a philosopher, the very fact that she is notable will lead readers to believe that she is an academic, but this is simply not the case. Burying that fact deep in the article is still misleading, because many people aren't ever going to read past the lead. It takes exactly one word — "non-academic" — to immediately dispell any misconceptions before they even have time to form, and I've seen no excuse for removing that word. Also, you can't call her a writer-philosopher or novelist-philosopher, since that would equate her with people like Camus, who have advanced academic degrees in the subject but prefer the medium of the novel. Rand is not Camus! The term "non-academic" is compact, accurate and neutral. It's just the truth, and the truth beats everything else. You're going to need to come up with a much more realistic objection, else people might think you're just interested in making Rand look better by lying about her, and we wouldn't want them to get that misconception, eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 02:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you really think there's any controversy over the simple fact that philosophy is an academic discipline, whose notable practioners are degreed and published? Be serious. For that matter, it is uncontested that a full and careful reading of the article would reveal that Rand is not an academic, so this is a bit of misdirection on your part. The issue is whether the article has a misleading lead, and I consider this issue settled since you don't address it.
Yes, I think your analysis of the status of Neitzche and Rand is accurate, and I have nothing to add to it. I do want to point out, though, that not only did academia reject Rand but Rand rejected academia in advance. It's not just that she happened not to be an academic, but that she was less a non-academic than an anti-academic, heaping scorn upon the philosophical establishment. To reiterate an argument found elsewhere on this page, the term "novelist-philospher" fits people like Camus well, but is misleading when applied to Rand, if only because being a novelist is not the same as being non- or anti-academic.
Non-academic philosopher is neutral and accurate. Novelist-philosopher and writer-philosopher offer little over the current "novelist and philosopher", but still make it sound as if Rand was a regular, academic philosopher. This is a non-neutral omission. - Bert 18:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not responsible for anyone but myself, so I don't really care what the original complaint was. I don't think anyone here is suggesting we stop calling Rand a philosopher, even if they think Rand is an incompetent philosopher. Someone already explained why you're not likely to find many notable non-academic philosophers, since non-academic philosophers tend to be obscure except maybe among New Agers, but if you ever do bump into an article on one, I fully encourage you to change it to be more consistent with this article. - Bert 18:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Bert evidently has a POV he wants to push, judging by his choice of words: "admitting", "vandal", etc. In fact counterarguments have been made, but he has simply dismissed them. My main counterargument is that it lowers the quality of the article (see my criteria listed above) to insert an unnecessary qualifier into the introductory lead. The nature of the philosophy and its relation to academia is sufficiently well covered further in the body of the article, and its relation to academia is a secondary attribute that does not belong in the lead-in text where only primary attributes are summarized.
How kind of you to "fix" my indentation without addressing my arguments. It is this commitment to quality that marks your tenure as a Wikipedia editor. - Bert 20:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Bert, I fail to understand why you believe it is so important to specify Rand as a non-academic philosopher. She was a philosopher, and indeed she made a living from her philosophy, thus making her a professional philosopher. Her relationship with academia, or lack thereof, is already explicated in the article. You're insistence on the inclusion of the term "non-academic" in the introduction gives undue weight and is designed to discredit Rand's philosophy, which is very NNPOV. The consensus is against you; please don't try and make this into an edit war. TallNapoleon ( talk) 20:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Way I count it up, I don't see either side of this with a clear consensus, not that consensus matters when it comes to violating the rules of the game. Since everyone now admits that Rand was a non-academic philosopher, your conspiracy theory about evil Rand-haters wanting to discredit her pretty much explains why you're edit warring to hide a fact you admit. It's not that you think it's unimportant, it's that you realize just how important this fact is and that's precisely why you want to hide it. I'm not going to let you, and neither are the others who are supporting the honest version of this article. Deal with it; that's my consensus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 00:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
To put this debate to rest once and for all, please state whether you support or oppose adding anything to the introduction about Rand being a "non-academic" philosopher (simply state whether you "Support" or "Oppose" and provide a one-sentence reason). To prevent possible sock puppets, anonymous IPs who have not made ANY edits to this article before today (April 25, 2008) will not be counted in the vote:
Oppose: Placing a qualification in the introduction would violate WP:Undue Weight. Idag ( talk) 00:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: Placing a qualification in the introduction would violate WP:Undue Weight. Ethan a dawe ( talk) 00:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: WP:Undue Weight, no precedent elsewhere. TallNapoleon ( talk) 00:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: WP:Undue Weight, would imply a controversial POV (lack of rigor) that can't simply be stated as fact. Mwickens ( talk) 11:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose as completely irrelevant given the long history of highly respected mainstream philosophers outside the academy, and undue weight as above. Skomorokh 11:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Support: its important and should be included - Edward G. Nilges
Abstain: I'm not going to participate in a pretend consensus where all the Rand fans vote to make Rand look as good as possible, no matter what the facts are. All of them get one vote in total, since they're a hive mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 21:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
After this consensus debate closes, I will archive this talk page; it has gotten ridiculously long.
I have removed the recent comments of Edward G. Nilges. Before anyone cries foul it needs to be stated that he has an account under the name spinoza1111. He has an indefinite block for being rude http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Spinoza1111 If he wants to post on wikipedia, he needs to get unblocked. Using his IP address to post is a direct violation of wikipedia policy as he is dodging the block. He lost the privledge of posting and editing for his behavior. Removing his posts is not censorship, it is merely enforcing the rules of this site. If he gets his account unblocked I will not delete any posts he makes. Ethan a dawe ( talk) 22:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The article edit protection has interfered with making further editorial improvements to the article. The following should be non-contentious:
{{
editprotected}}
In the
Ayn Rand article's section "Objectivist movement" section, somebody added a "Fact" tag (requesting a reference) to the first sentence in the fourth paragraph: "After several years, Rand's close relationship with the much younger Branden turned into a romantic affair, with the consent of their spouses." There are several possible references for this; changing the Fact tag to the following should suffice:
<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/bio/biofaq.html#Q4.4 | title="Ayn Rand Biographical FAQ: Did Rand have an affair with Nathaniel Branden?" | accessdate=2008-04-28}}</ref>
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |