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In recent times, there have been several large scale DNA tests of various Pakistani races/tribes; and I have read some papers that are of quite reliable provenance , that seem to prove that Awans are 100% of Indo-European origins. Mithocondrial DNA testing has shown with over 80% accuracy rates that the Awans are closely related to a number of Rajput and other indigenous South Asian tribes in Northern Punjab and nearby regions . The fact that some tribes converted totally and some partially to Islam at a certain time has nothing to do with the genetic factors. There are several old Hindu tribes that converted entirely and are all Muslims today eg Jhodras, Ghebas, Noons , Arains, Dhond-Abbasis, Karlals, Bambas etc ; whereas there are others that are mostly Muslims in Pakistan area now with some smaller non-Muslim populations in India -such as Tiwanas, Khattars, Tarars and so on. I shall try to dig out the DNA based research articles and share here for everyone's edification. I strongly believe we should all forget about these fake claims (due to our continued complexes about our old /true origins after accepting Islam) and take pride that we are who we are , in fact , and that our elders did accept the truth of Islam centuries ago. (Hamid Ali Awan, Havelian, NW Pakistan)
The book reference ultimately refers to a British Gazetteer, which to my understanding are not allowed to be included in the Wikipedia articles.
Khan, Sabir Badal (2013). Two Essays on Baloch History and Folklore: Two Essays on Baloch History and Folklore. Università di Napoli, "l'Orientale". p. 40.
Verbatim:
"Similarly, the Awans, said to be of Jat origin (Attock District Gazetteer 1932: 82), claim Arab origins having descended from Ali, the son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad, from a wife other Fatima...."
[1] https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8N1JCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA40&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false QutbShah ( talk) 21:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why is it not? RevolutionaryPatriot ( talk) 05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Mārg̲: A Magazine of Architecture and Art, Volumes 1-2
1946, page 32:
"The people of this area are 90 per cent Muslims of the Awan tribe. They are an independent and proud set, claiming unmixed descent from a tribe of Arab invaders." QutbShah ( talk) 21:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
So an edit was added claiming that Awan are a Punjabi Muslim tribe at the very start. I dont think this is a good idea, it doesnt really help to simplify the tribe to new readers, just confusing since this people group dont even identify themselves as Punjabis and some of the people follow other cultures too, like Pashtuns, Qizilbash, Tajik cultures in Peshawar. The opening body already tells you they are settled in the West Punjab region. That shouldve been and has been enough detail for the reader.
It feels misleading and this has only ever been a recent (ONLINE) phenomenon of identifying Awans as a Branch of Punjabi identity. This isnt something meant to be added to Wikipedia. It is not in the place for Wikipedia editors to assign an identity to them for the sake of simplifying or just for the sake of giving it an ethnicity. Leave it as is instead of adding "Punjabi Muslim". RevolutionaryPatriot ( talk) 05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- You need to read
WP:NOR. It's properly sourced.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
09:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can you tell me why this is properly sourced?
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
10:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think I quite understand what you mean. If you mean where it is sourced, there are two citations in the very first line.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
10:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- For the second source, maybe you could point out what its saying because I only found that it only says Awans are a people group of Punjab.
- The second source doesnt really help much, its a dictionary on American surnames which isnt in much capacity to declare it as a Punjabi tribe. Awans are mostly people from Punjab, thats really the only conclusion we can have from that source. Awans are not on par with something like Jats or Arain people. Why are the Awan an ethnic Punjabi tribe if they dont even exist in East Punjab? No source gives any definitive origin of Awan people so there isnt good reason to use this wording, "Punjabi tribe" for it.
- Unreliable British writers write about them having possibly Jat origin thats it. I havent seen any good reason to call it a Punjabi tribe it is MISLEADING.
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
11:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's what The Garrison State: The Military, Government and Society in Colonial Punjab 1849–1947 states:
Consequently, socially dominant Muslim tribes such as the Gakkhars, Janjuas and Awans, and a few Rajput tribes, concentrated in the Rawalpindi and Jhelum districts in the northern Salt Range tract in the Punjab, accounted for more than ninety per cent of Punjabi Muslim recruits.
- If you believe a source from
Oxford University Press is unreliable then you can take it to RSN. Rest is, again, your speculation and original research, backed by nothing and really not much of an argument. Please avoid it.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
12:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not a Punjabi tribe. A "Muslim tribe". And for the American surname source, it does not back what you are saying adequately. Awans arent a tribe of Punjabi identity and arent really considered as such.
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
13:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not a Punjabi tribe. A "Muslim tribe".
- Read the whole quote, not just first part.
- And for the American surname source, it does not back what you are saying adequately.
- No it very much does. Go through it again.
- Awans arent a tribe of Punjabi identity and arent really considered as such.
- I will not bother replying if you're only going to make unsubstantiated claims. That's unhelpful and not how Wikipedia works.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
15:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing theres no relation. An Awan person can be considered Punjabi but thats because that person would be from Punjab. An Awan from Peshawar or elsewhere north-west is not going to be identified as Punjabi. Seemingly use of the term Punjabi tribe is a geographic designation. Like I said before, a Jat or Arain is a Punjabi while no one in East Punjab knows what an Awan is. When did they become a Punjabi people? RevolutionaryPatriot ( talk) 16:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Do you want to ask Pakistani/Punjab topic editors about it? Does Awan = Punjabi?
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
14:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- You do have a point ,idk how or when it’s been considered to be linked to one specific peaple Nebula1321 ( talk) 17:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not a Punjabi tribe. A "Muslim tribe". And for the American surname source, it does not back what you are saying adequately. Awans arent a tribe of Punjabi identity and arent really considered as such.
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
13:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's what The Garrison State: The Military, Government and Society in Colonial Punjab 1849–1947 states:
- I don't think I quite understand what you mean. If you mean where it is sourced, there are two citations in the very first line.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
10:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can you tell me why this is properly sourced?
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
10:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
You have been here for a year, but I don't think you properly understand WP:GUIDELINES. The sources for Punjabi ethnicity are reliable and verifiable; you'd need equally reliable sources to prove them Pashtuns or whatever you think they are. Your personal observations about them, while may not be entirely untrue, mean nothing, and same holds true for Pakistani/Punjab topic editors, as it is original research while Wikipedia is based upon what RS state. Sutyarashi ( talk) 15:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Its just logical thought. No one in the world can surely comment on if the Awans are Jats or a large tribe of Sayyid/Arab origin, but I'm saying Wikipedia shouldnt declare it to belong to one and that the original wording is better, even if the ethnicity is unknown because it just is. It is not in the place for an american family name dictionary book to declare the tribe as Punjabi or the vague British source because it can just be considered a geographic/language designation, Awan people dont even entirely live in Punjab but in northern Pakistan too like Hazara or Peshawar, even speaking Persian or Pashto.
- Does Awan = Punjabi? Is it really proven that Awans are historically a Punjabi tribe just like a Cheema or Chattha is? Not sure if this is relevant to mention but Awan people dont really consider themselves as Punjabi.
- Awans that live in Punjab are eligible for Punjabi identity but I cant see how they can be declared as a whole to be a tribe of it.
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
16:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hate to repeat myself again, but that's all
original research. Have you any source backing up what you say?
Sutyarashi (
talk)
17:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with him and I also think it should have the Punjabi tribe removed as that’s the most logical thing to do since they don’t even consider themselves it aswell Nebula1321 ( talk) 17:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- He has got a point though and btw there is a lot of fake awan out there Nebula1321 ( talk) 17:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well most will agree with you anyway on this , and this is people that I have spoken to and know who are from Awan tribe especially The ones from kpk
- I mean they even look different or if anything look like the peaple from that specific region Nebula1321 ( talk) 17:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hate to repeat myself again, but that's all
original research. Have you any source backing up what you say?
Sutyarashi (
talk)
17:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
dear u have wrote in the article with headline about Awans as Punjabi muslims which is not fair...listing them as punjabi is much more blurry than listing them as Pashtun or arab...i could not understand the criteria by which a rqce is recognized in such websites...pashtuns living in punjab remain pashtun, baloch remain baloch then why such discriminatory while mentioning Awans as punjabis rather than pashtuns or arabs...so plz remove this term punjabi from the article..furthermore Awan is not a punjabi word it is an arabic word which means Helper...plz change that mistake... 137.59.220.64 ( talk) 04:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
dear hazara University has performed the DNA research of the tribes living in kpk including Awans...result of their research confirmed the whole tribe claims of arab descent is true and they close to Syeds..and haplogroup T1 originated in israel is found in Awans only...in this advance period of science such proofs can not be denied...so look into the matter and change that misleading ethnicity of Awan tribe. Malikkhel ( talk) 05:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles under general sanctions
- Start-Class India articles
- Low-importance India articles
- Start-Class India articles of Low-importance
- WikiProject India articles
- Start-Class Pakistan articles
- Low-importance Pakistan articles
- WikiProject Pakistan articles
- Start-Class Ethnic groups articles
- Unknown-importance Ethnic groups articles
- WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
| This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Awan (tribe) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
|
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6Auto-archiving period: 20 days
|
|
| The use of the contentious topics procedure has been authorised by the community for pages related to South Asian social groups, including this page. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. |
|
| This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Index
|
||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 20 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
In recent times, there have been several large scale DNA tests of various Pakistani races/tribes; and I have read some papers that are of quite reliable provenance , that seem to prove that Awans are 100% of Indo-European origins. Mithocondrial DNA testing has shown with over 80% accuracy rates that the Awans are closely related to a number of Rajput and other indigenous South Asian tribes in Northern Punjab and nearby regions . The fact that some tribes converted totally and some partially to Islam at a certain time has nothing to do with the genetic factors. There are several old Hindu tribes that converted entirely and are all Muslims today eg Jhodras, Ghebas, Noons , Arains, Dhond-Abbasis, Karlals, Bambas etc ; whereas there are others that are mostly Muslims in Pakistan area now with some smaller non-Muslim populations in India -such as Tiwanas, Khattars, Tarars and so on. I shall try to dig out the DNA based research articles and share here for everyone's edification. I strongly believe we should all forget about these fake claims (due to our continued complexes about our old /true origins after accepting Islam) and take pride that we are who we are , in fact , and that our elders did accept the truth of Islam centuries ago. (Hamid Ali Awan, Havelian, NW Pakistan)
The book reference ultimately refers to a British Gazetteer, which to my understanding are not allowed to be included in the Wikipedia articles.
Khan, Sabir Badal (2013). Two Essays on Baloch History and Folklore: Two Essays on Baloch History and Folklore. Università di Napoli, "l'Orientale". p. 40.
Verbatim:
"Similarly, the Awans, said to be of Jat origin (Attock District Gazetteer 1932: 82), claim Arab origins having descended from Ali, the son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad, from a wife other Fatima...."
[1] https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8N1JCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA40&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false QutbShah ( talk) 21:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why is it not? RevolutionaryPatriot ( talk) 05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Mārg̲: A Magazine of Architecture and Art, Volumes 1-2
1946, page 32:
"The people of this area are 90 per cent Muslims of the Awan tribe. They are an independent and proud set, claiming unmixed descent from a tribe of Arab invaders." QutbShah ( talk) 21:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
So an edit was added claiming that Awan are a Punjabi Muslim tribe at the very start. I dont think this is a good idea, it doesnt really help to simplify the tribe to new readers, just confusing since this people group dont even identify themselves as Punjabis and some of the people follow other cultures too, like Pashtuns, Qizilbash, Tajik cultures in Peshawar. The opening body already tells you they are settled in the West Punjab region. That shouldve been and has been enough detail for the reader.
It feels misleading and this has only ever been a recent (ONLINE) phenomenon of identifying Awans as a Branch of Punjabi identity. This isnt something meant to be added to Wikipedia. It is not in the place for Wikipedia editors to assign an identity to them for the sake of simplifying or just for the sake of giving it an ethnicity. Leave it as is instead of adding "Punjabi Muslim". RevolutionaryPatriot ( talk) 05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- You need to read
WP:NOR. It's properly sourced.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
09:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can you tell me why this is properly sourced?
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
10:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think I quite understand what you mean. If you mean where it is sourced, there are two citations in the very first line.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
10:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- For the second source, maybe you could point out what its saying because I only found that it only says Awans are a people group of Punjab.
- The second source doesnt really help much, its a dictionary on American surnames which isnt in much capacity to declare it as a Punjabi tribe. Awans are mostly people from Punjab, thats really the only conclusion we can have from that source. Awans are not on par with something like Jats or Arain people. Why are the Awan an ethnic Punjabi tribe if they dont even exist in East Punjab? No source gives any definitive origin of Awan people so there isnt good reason to use this wording, "Punjabi tribe" for it.
- Unreliable British writers write about them having possibly Jat origin thats it. I havent seen any good reason to call it a Punjabi tribe it is MISLEADING.
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
11:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's what The Garrison State: The Military, Government and Society in Colonial Punjab 1849–1947 states:
Consequently, socially dominant Muslim tribes such as the Gakkhars, Janjuas and Awans, and a few Rajput tribes, concentrated in the Rawalpindi and Jhelum districts in the northern Salt Range tract in the Punjab, accounted for more than ninety per cent of Punjabi Muslim recruits.
- If you believe a source from
Oxford University Press is unreliable then you can take it to RSN. Rest is, again, your speculation and original research, backed by nothing and really not much of an argument. Please avoid it.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
12:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not a Punjabi tribe. A "Muslim tribe". And for the American surname source, it does not back what you are saying adequately. Awans arent a tribe of Punjabi identity and arent really considered as such.
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
13:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not a Punjabi tribe. A "Muslim tribe".
- Read the whole quote, not just first part.
- And for the American surname source, it does not back what you are saying adequately.
- No it very much does. Go through it again.
- Awans arent a tribe of Punjabi identity and arent really considered as such.
- I will not bother replying if you're only going to make unsubstantiated claims. That's unhelpful and not how Wikipedia works.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
15:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing theres no relation. An Awan person can be considered Punjabi but thats because that person would be from Punjab. An Awan from Peshawar or elsewhere north-west is not going to be identified as Punjabi. Seemingly use of the term Punjabi tribe is a geographic designation. Like I said before, a Jat or Arain is a Punjabi while no one in East Punjab knows what an Awan is. When did they become a Punjabi people? RevolutionaryPatriot ( talk) 16:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Do you want to ask Pakistani/Punjab topic editors about it? Does Awan = Punjabi?
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
14:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- You do have a point ,idk how or when it’s been considered to be linked to one specific peaple Nebula1321 ( talk) 17:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not a Punjabi tribe. A "Muslim tribe". And for the American surname source, it does not back what you are saying adequately. Awans arent a tribe of Punjabi identity and arent really considered as such.
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
13:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's what The Garrison State: The Military, Government and Society in Colonial Punjab 1849–1947 states:
- I don't think I quite understand what you mean. If you mean where it is sourced, there are two citations in the very first line.
Sutyarashi (
talk)
10:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can you tell me why this is properly sourced?
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
10:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
You have been here for a year, but I don't think you properly understand WP:GUIDELINES. The sources for Punjabi ethnicity are reliable and verifiable; you'd need equally reliable sources to prove them Pashtuns or whatever you think they are. Your personal observations about them, while may not be entirely untrue, mean nothing, and same holds true for Pakistani/Punjab topic editors, as it is original research while Wikipedia is based upon what RS state. Sutyarashi ( talk) 15:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Its just logical thought. No one in the world can surely comment on if the Awans are Jats or a large tribe of Sayyid/Arab origin, but I'm saying Wikipedia shouldnt declare it to belong to one and that the original wording is better, even if the ethnicity is unknown because it just is. It is not in the place for an american family name dictionary book to declare the tribe as Punjabi or the vague British source because it can just be considered a geographic/language designation, Awan people dont even entirely live in Punjab but in northern Pakistan too like Hazara or Peshawar, even speaking Persian or Pashto.
- Does Awan = Punjabi? Is it really proven that Awans are historically a Punjabi tribe just like a Cheema or Chattha is? Not sure if this is relevant to mention but Awan people dont really consider themselves as Punjabi.
- Awans that live in Punjab are eligible for Punjabi identity but I cant see how they can be declared as a whole to be a tribe of it.
RevolutionaryPatriot (
talk)
16:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hate to repeat myself again, but that's all
original research. Have you any source backing up what you say?
Sutyarashi (
talk)
17:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with him and I also think it should have the Punjabi tribe removed as that’s the most logical thing to do since they don’t even consider themselves it aswell Nebula1321 ( talk) 17:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- He has got a point though and btw there is a lot of fake awan out there Nebula1321 ( talk) 17:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well most will agree with you anyway on this , and this is people that I have spoken to and know who are from Awan tribe especially The ones from kpk
- I mean they even look different or if anything look like the peaple from that specific region Nebula1321 ( talk) 17:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hate to repeat myself again, but that's all
original research. Have you any source backing up what you say?
Sutyarashi (
talk)
17:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
dear u have wrote in the article with headline about Awans as Punjabi muslims which is not fair...listing them as punjabi is much more blurry than listing them as Pashtun or arab...i could not understand the criteria by which a rqce is recognized in such websites...pashtuns living in punjab remain pashtun, baloch remain baloch then why such discriminatory while mentioning Awans as punjabis rather than pashtuns or arabs...so plz remove this term punjabi from the article..furthermore Awan is not a punjabi word it is an arabic word which means Helper...plz change that mistake... 137.59.220.64 ( talk) 04:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
dear hazara University has performed the DNA research of the tribes living in kpk including Awans...result of their research confirmed the whole tribe claims of arab descent is true and they close to Syeds..and haplogroup T1 originated in israel is found in Awans only...in this advance period of science such proofs can not be denied...so look into the matter and change that misleading ethnicity of Awan tribe. Malikkhel ( talk) 05:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles under general sanctions
- Start-Class India articles
- Low-importance India articles
- Start-Class India articles of Low-importance
- WikiProject India articles
- Start-Class Pakistan articles
- Low-importance Pakistan articles
- WikiProject Pakistan articles
- Start-Class Ethnic groups articles
- Unknown-importance Ethnic groups articles
- WikiProject Ethnic groups articles