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Is there someone who could elaborate on why the seat of the Papacy was moved to Avignon? (I'd do it myself, except that I know nothing whatsoever about the topic...) - Vardion 09:14, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Taking out the capitals makes this article look funny. I'm unsure that all of them are needed, but for the most part their removal strikes me as quirky. Mkmcconn 23:37, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There seem to be alot of bibliographic references throughout this article masquerading as links. They seem to serve no purpose but to confuse. Mind if I remove them? - R. fiend18:23, 23 April 2004 (UTC)
I removed a reference in the opening paragraph to rival popes during the 1305-1378 period. This is correct for the subsequent period, but not the earlier one.-- Iacobus 00:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The article seems to say that Martin Luther first coined the term above. Is there a reference for this? Luther did write an influential book called On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church, but from my reading of the summaries (blush) I understand that this referred to the "captivity" of the church under papal rule, not to the "captivity" of the papacy in Avignon.-- Iacobus 01:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The term "Babylonian Captivity" originally applied only to the seventy years that the Jews were made captives in Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, and released by Cyrus (B.C.536) [Brewer: Dictionary of Fact and Fable]. Its use to mean the Avignon Papacy was jocular; this also occupying about 70 years, and the name 'Babylon' perhaps referring to both Paris and Avignon as "The Modern Babylon" on account of wealth, luxury, the Babel of languages used, luxury and dissipation [ibid.]Certainly London was called Babylon for like reasons.The Avignon Papacy is usually termed "The second Babylonian Captivity". Colcestrian ( talk) 01:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
This article kind of mentions the schism, mainly just in one of the headings. Perhaps a small note should be made about what the schism actually was (linking to the main schism article?) As it stands, the word is in the heading, but isn't really mentioned in that section of the article!
The article says "A stronger source of influence [for the move] was the move of the Roman Curia from Rome to Avignon in 1305." But the Roman Curia article says the Roman Curia was established in the 16th Century. So how is this possible? 68.36.163.22 00:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
England and/or France weren't so main power as some people think. Hungarian royal inland revenues, controlled territories and royal armies were bigger/higher in that period than English or French revenues/armies/territories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.185.112 ( talk) 21:03, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Were the Avignon popes still formally Bishop of Rome? Were they also made Bishop of Avignon (if such a title existed)? Who filled the void in administering the Diocese of Rome during this period?-- NeantHumain ( talk) 23:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The article could maybe mention that similar attempts to move the papacy outside Rome have also been made in more recent times. For instance, Leo XIII had proposed to move the papacy to Austria-Hungary, while Pius XII had considered moving it to Portugal. ADM ( talk) 16:17, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Could this short division be considered an Orthodox sect? (I'm trying to learn more about Orthodoxy.) In a rather brief scan through, the wiki article for Easter Orthodox Church doesn't seem to indicate what makes up an Orthodox church. Some parts seem to indicate it means any church that divided from the Roman Papacy during the ecumenical reforms. Others seem to indicate any church which considers itself Catholic and has a pope not presiding or adhering to the Roman Papacy. -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 04:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
The intro is too big. The lead tells you more about the successors and anti-successors to the Avignon popes than about the papacy itself. These details belong in the body, not the lead. Rwflammang ( talk) 22:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the introduction quite a bit; it mostly wasn't about the Avignon papacy at all, and was talking about the western schism. On the other hand, the "Schism" sectiion had a big gap in it, as it didn't explain what the schism was or why it is relevant here. So hopefully that's been resolved now. Moonraker12 ( talk) 13:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Prior to this move back in the 5th Century, the then-pope, Stephen II, was under threat by the Lombards of Italy. They were one of the local kingdoms and were trying to take Rome and what is not the vatican land away from the Pope. The pope first asked the patriarch in Constantinople if he would send military assistance to defend the papacy from the Lombards. His request was not only refused, it was ignored...kind of cemented the Schism with the Orthodox church in the East. He then turned to the Franks who helped Pope Stephen II out at a "price they couldn't refuse."
Over time the relationship between France and the Papacy, different players now - King Phillip the Fair, and Pope Innocent III, became in-tolerable to other nations, specifically England. France was "borrowing" money from the Vatican to pay for the excesses of King Philip, the Fair, of France in his war with England. There was other politicking going on too, but no room or time to go into that.
King Phillip, offered--urged---forced the move of the control of the Papacy and the Pope to relocate in Avignon. This in turn caused another upheaval which included three different popes, at least one of which was in Rome elevated legitimately by the sitting Cardinals, all at the same time claiming the authority and headship of the Church. BobG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.123.142.48 ( talk) 01:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No concensus to move. Although MOS:CAPS may be a reasonable rationale here, the current title is sufficiently represented in RS and no harm will come to WP if the title remains at a title that has been stable since 2005 Mike Cline ( talk) 23:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Avignon Papacy →
Avignon papacy – Relisted.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 03:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC) Per
MOS:CAPS, we avoid unnecessary capitalization. This one is certainly not necessary, as shown by the overwhelming majority lower-case usage in
books.
Dicklyon (
talk) 04:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
In history, we do capitalize eras, e.g. Great Schism, Renaissance, Reformation, Enlightenment, etc. Papacy is capitalized or not capitalized depending on the context, i.e. whether it is being used as a proper noun. And in this context, it is. Walrasiad ( talk) 18:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
As User:Dicklyon correctly pointed out, this Google Ngram Viewer search clearly shows that the mixed case form (Avignon papacy) strongly dominates 71 to 21. It’s also clear that the future trend is to even further widen the gap. Moreover, none other than one of the defining “most-reliable” source—the highly respected publisher The Cambridge University Press—with their “The New Cambridge Medieval History” (1995 / 2000) spell it with the lowercase “papacy.” It doesn’t matter when a mere wikipedian makes arguments like [the] Avignon Papacy refers to an era, so capitalization throughout would be appropriate; English-language rules are not lost on experts published by the likes of the The Cambridge University Press; that’s pretty much a “Well… Duh!” fact. And, the last time I looked at WP:RS, I saw no mention of a single wikipedian as being defined as an RS.
The proper role of an encyclopedia is to educate its readership on a topic of interest and properly prepare them for their continuing studies elsewhere on that subject. We do a disservice to everyone, even our casual visitors, when they come here to see how one properly spells the term only to find out, when they later communicate with an expert in the field, that they had to be corrected as to the proper capitalization. That point was well proven with our three-year-long experiment with the binary prefixes (where readers who actually believed what was written on Wikipedia) marched into computer stores and said “I want a computer with at least 512 mebibytes of RAM” (only to be laughed out of the store). That fiasco was the product of just 20 well-meaning wikipedians who thought *they* knew better than the experts. The evidence is clear as to the predominant practice of the RSs. Greg L ( talk) 21:28, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Is there any basis for the move other than the Google Books Ngram? Because Google Books is notoriously poor at distinguishing letter cases and individual Google Book searches of either form give results of both. — AjaxSmack 05:10, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
This section begins, "For the Catholic Church, an institution embedded in the secular structure and its focus on property, this was a dangerous development, and beginning in the early 14th century most of these movements were declared heretical." It doesn't say what was a dangerous development, or what "these movements" refers to, so it doesn't make any sense. It seems to be relying on a preceding section that no longer exists. Philgoetz ( talk) 03:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
This section is inadequate in its scope and the main article it should refer to is Western schism (not War of the Eight Saints). Western schism provides a better overview of the situation:
After Pope Gregory XI died in 1378, the Romans rioted to ensure the election of a Roman for pope. At the same time a large group of Italians demanded an Italian pope. On April 8, 1378 the cardinals elected a Neapolitan because of the coercion of the Italian mob.[3] Urban VI, born Bartolomeo Prignano, the Archbishop of Bari, was elected. Urban had been a respected administrator in the papal chancery at Avignon, but as pope he proved suspicious, reformist, and prone to violent outbursts of temper. Many of the cardinals who had elected him soon regretted their decision: the majority removed themselves from Rome to Anagni, where, even though Urban was still reigning, they elected Robert of Geneva as a rival pope on September 20 of the same year. Robert took the name Clement VII and reestablished a papal court in Avignon. The second election threw the Church into turmoil. There had been rival antipopeclaimants to the papacy—before, but most of them had been appointed by various rival factions; in this case, a single group of leaders of the Church had created both the pope and the antipope. This greatly confused the European people, who had seen the pope as a sacred position. With two popes people had trouble having faith in either leader.[4]
The conflicts quickly escalated from a church problem to a diplomatic crisis that divided Europe. Secular leaders had to choose which claimant they would recognize:
Avignon: France, Aragon, Castile and León, Cyprus, Burgundy, Savoy, Naples, Scotland and Owain Glyndwr's rebellion in Wales recognized the Avignon claimant; Rome: Denmark, England, Flanders, the Holy Roman Empire, Hungary, Ireland (English dominion), Norway, Portugal, Poland (later Poland-Lithuania), Sweden, Republic of Venice, and other City States of northern Italy, recognized the Roman claimant. Peter K Burian ( talk) 02:05, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
I dispute this quote, as no citation is given and a Google search also only turns up uncited references which just seem to have been copied from here. Indeed, Tiernay (1964, pp. 83-84), writes: "The king did not reply by theological arguments." Sylvesterjay ( talk) 08:38, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Why do we have sections about the anti-popes? This article is suppose to be about the popes who resided at Avignon from 1309 to 1377. Put the French anti-popes in an article of their own. GoodDay ( talk) 06:00, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Avignon Papacy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is there someone who could elaborate on why the seat of the Papacy was moved to Avignon? (I'd do it myself, except that I know nothing whatsoever about the topic...) - Vardion 09:14, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Taking out the capitals makes this article look funny. I'm unsure that all of them are needed, but for the most part their removal strikes me as quirky. Mkmcconn 23:37, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There seem to be alot of bibliographic references throughout this article masquerading as links. They seem to serve no purpose but to confuse. Mind if I remove them? - R. fiend18:23, 23 April 2004 (UTC)
I removed a reference in the opening paragraph to rival popes during the 1305-1378 period. This is correct for the subsequent period, but not the earlier one.-- Iacobus 00:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The article seems to say that Martin Luther first coined the term above. Is there a reference for this? Luther did write an influential book called On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church, but from my reading of the summaries (blush) I understand that this referred to the "captivity" of the church under papal rule, not to the "captivity" of the papacy in Avignon.-- Iacobus 01:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The term "Babylonian Captivity" originally applied only to the seventy years that the Jews were made captives in Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, and released by Cyrus (B.C.536) [Brewer: Dictionary of Fact and Fable]. Its use to mean the Avignon Papacy was jocular; this also occupying about 70 years, and the name 'Babylon' perhaps referring to both Paris and Avignon as "The Modern Babylon" on account of wealth, luxury, the Babel of languages used, luxury and dissipation [ibid.]Certainly London was called Babylon for like reasons.The Avignon Papacy is usually termed "The second Babylonian Captivity". Colcestrian ( talk) 01:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
This article kind of mentions the schism, mainly just in one of the headings. Perhaps a small note should be made about what the schism actually was (linking to the main schism article?) As it stands, the word is in the heading, but isn't really mentioned in that section of the article!
The article says "A stronger source of influence [for the move] was the move of the Roman Curia from Rome to Avignon in 1305." But the Roman Curia article says the Roman Curia was established in the 16th Century. So how is this possible? 68.36.163.22 00:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
England and/or France weren't so main power as some people think. Hungarian royal inland revenues, controlled territories and royal armies were bigger/higher in that period than English or French revenues/armies/territories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.185.112 ( talk) 21:03, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Were the Avignon popes still formally Bishop of Rome? Were they also made Bishop of Avignon (if such a title existed)? Who filled the void in administering the Diocese of Rome during this period?-- NeantHumain ( talk) 23:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The article could maybe mention that similar attempts to move the papacy outside Rome have also been made in more recent times. For instance, Leo XIII had proposed to move the papacy to Austria-Hungary, while Pius XII had considered moving it to Portugal. ADM ( talk) 16:17, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Could this short division be considered an Orthodox sect? (I'm trying to learn more about Orthodoxy.) In a rather brief scan through, the wiki article for Easter Orthodox Church doesn't seem to indicate what makes up an Orthodox church. Some parts seem to indicate it means any church that divided from the Roman Papacy during the ecumenical reforms. Others seem to indicate any church which considers itself Catholic and has a pope not presiding or adhering to the Roman Papacy. -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 04:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
The intro is too big. The lead tells you more about the successors and anti-successors to the Avignon popes than about the papacy itself. These details belong in the body, not the lead. Rwflammang ( talk) 22:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the introduction quite a bit; it mostly wasn't about the Avignon papacy at all, and was talking about the western schism. On the other hand, the "Schism" sectiion had a big gap in it, as it didn't explain what the schism was or why it is relevant here. So hopefully that's been resolved now. Moonraker12 ( talk) 13:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Prior to this move back in the 5th Century, the then-pope, Stephen II, was under threat by the Lombards of Italy. They were one of the local kingdoms and were trying to take Rome and what is not the vatican land away from the Pope. The pope first asked the patriarch in Constantinople if he would send military assistance to defend the papacy from the Lombards. His request was not only refused, it was ignored...kind of cemented the Schism with the Orthodox church in the East. He then turned to the Franks who helped Pope Stephen II out at a "price they couldn't refuse."
Over time the relationship between France and the Papacy, different players now - King Phillip the Fair, and Pope Innocent III, became in-tolerable to other nations, specifically England. France was "borrowing" money from the Vatican to pay for the excesses of King Philip, the Fair, of France in his war with England. There was other politicking going on too, but no room or time to go into that.
King Phillip, offered--urged---forced the move of the control of the Papacy and the Pope to relocate in Avignon. This in turn caused another upheaval which included three different popes, at least one of which was in Rome elevated legitimately by the sitting Cardinals, all at the same time claiming the authority and headship of the Church. BobG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.123.142.48 ( talk) 01:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No concensus to move. Although MOS:CAPS may be a reasonable rationale here, the current title is sufficiently represented in RS and no harm will come to WP if the title remains at a title that has been stable since 2005 Mike Cline ( talk) 23:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Avignon Papacy →
Avignon papacy – Relisted.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 03:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC) Per
MOS:CAPS, we avoid unnecessary capitalization. This one is certainly not necessary, as shown by the overwhelming majority lower-case usage in
books.
Dicklyon (
talk) 04:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
In history, we do capitalize eras, e.g. Great Schism, Renaissance, Reformation, Enlightenment, etc. Papacy is capitalized or not capitalized depending on the context, i.e. whether it is being used as a proper noun. And in this context, it is. Walrasiad ( talk) 18:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
As User:Dicklyon correctly pointed out, this Google Ngram Viewer search clearly shows that the mixed case form (Avignon papacy) strongly dominates 71 to 21. It’s also clear that the future trend is to even further widen the gap. Moreover, none other than one of the defining “most-reliable” source—the highly respected publisher The Cambridge University Press—with their “The New Cambridge Medieval History” (1995 / 2000) spell it with the lowercase “papacy.” It doesn’t matter when a mere wikipedian makes arguments like [the] Avignon Papacy refers to an era, so capitalization throughout would be appropriate; English-language rules are not lost on experts published by the likes of the The Cambridge University Press; that’s pretty much a “Well… Duh!” fact. And, the last time I looked at WP:RS, I saw no mention of a single wikipedian as being defined as an RS.
The proper role of an encyclopedia is to educate its readership on a topic of interest and properly prepare them for their continuing studies elsewhere on that subject. We do a disservice to everyone, even our casual visitors, when they come here to see how one properly spells the term only to find out, when they later communicate with an expert in the field, that they had to be corrected as to the proper capitalization. That point was well proven with our three-year-long experiment with the binary prefixes (where readers who actually believed what was written on Wikipedia) marched into computer stores and said “I want a computer with at least 512 mebibytes of RAM” (only to be laughed out of the store). That fiasco was the product of just 20 well-meaning wikipedians who thought *they* knew better than the experts. The evidence is clear as to the predominant practice of the RSs. Greg L ( talk) 21:28, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Is there any basis for the move other than the Google Books Ngram? Because Google Books is notoriously poor at distinguishing letter cases and individual Google Book searches of either form give results of both. — AjaxSmack 05:10, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
This section begins, "For the Catholic Church, an institution embedded in the secular structure and its focus on property, this was a dangerous development, and beginning in the early 14th century most of these movements were declared heretical." It doesn't say what was a dangerous development, or what "these movements" refers to, so it doesn't make any sense. It seems to be relying on a preceding section that no longer exists. Philgoetz ( talk) 03:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
This section is inadequate in its scope and the main article it should refer to is Western schism (not War of the Eight Saints). Western schism provides a better overview of the situation:
After Pope Gregory XI died in 1378, the Romans rioted to ensure the election of a Roman for pope. At the same time a large group of Italians demanded an Italian pope. On April 8, 1378 the cardinals elected a Neapolitan because of the coercion of the Italian mob.[3] Urban VI, born Bartolomeo Prignano, the Archbishop of Bari, was elected. Urban had been a respected administrator in the papal chancery at Avignon, but as pope he proved suspicious, reformist, and prone to violent outbursts of temper. Many of the cardinals who had elected him soon regretted their decision: the majority removed themselves from Rome to Anagni, where, even though Urban was still reigning, they elected Robert of Geneva as a rival pope on September 20 of the same year. Robert took the name Clement VII and reestablished a papal court in Avignon. The second election threw the Church into turmoil. There had been rival antipopeclaimants to the papacy—before, but most of them had been appointed by various rival factions; in this case, a single group of leaders of the Church had created both the pope and the antipope. This greatly confused the European people, who had seen the pope as a sacred position. With two popes people had trouble having faith in either leader.[4]
The conflicts quickly escalated from a church problem to a diplomatic crisis that divided Europe. Secular leaders had to choose which claimant they would recognize:
Avignon: France, Aragon, Castile and León, Cyprus, Burgundy, Savoy, Naples, Scotland and Owain Glyndwr's rebellion in Wales recognized the Avignon claimant; Rome: Denmark, England, Flanders, the Holy Roman Empire, Hungary, Ireland (English dominion), Norway, Portugal, Poland (later Poland-Lithuania), Sweden, Republic of Venice, and other City States of northern Italy, recognized the Roman claimant. Peter K Burian ( talk) 02:05, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
I dispute this quote, as no citation is given and a Google search also only turns up uncited references which just seem to have been copied from here. Indeed, Tiernay (1964, pp. 83-84), writes: "The king did not reply by theological arguments." Sylvesterjay ( talk) 08:38, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Why do we have sections about the anti-popes? This article is suppose to be about the popes who resided at Avignon from 1309 to 1377. Put the French anti-popes in an article of their own. GoodDay ( talk) 06:00, 14 January 2022 (UTC)