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I added Greek band Dol Ammad to the list of example bands. The fourteen-piece choir alone probably qualifies them for avant-garde as opposed to conventional prog metal. Irene Ringworm 01:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
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Can someone also add Agalloch to the band list? I believe they are very influential in this genre. ( i don't know how to edit wikipedia )
-anon
What about Fantômas, The Melvins, and Faith No More? - leigh [[user talk:phthoggos|(φθόγ-- IAmSuchALoser ( talk) 16:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)γος)]] 09:25, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Metal Storm http://www.metalstorm.ee/pub/article.php?article_id=161
Encyclopaedia Metallum http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=1383
Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fant%C3%B4mas_(band)
Last.fm http://www.last.fm/music/Fant%C3%B4mas 11 @ http://www.last.fm/tag/avant-garde+metal
Prog Archives http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1499
Emmaneul 21:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that The Melvins deserve a brief mention here because they were really avantgarde in 80s metal, despite that they are nowadays commonly labeled as "sludge", "doom", "alternative metal" or whatever. Avantgarde metal bands as Isis, Boris, Neurosis etc. cite 'em as their huge influence, so I think they should be included. Nothingagainst 15:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion. There was, however, no consensus to delete. A full review of the discussion can be found here. Tom e r talk 07:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to add a few thoughts about Avant garde metal. I wasn't here when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avant garde metal this article was up for deletion so I will respond now (in an effort to improve it so that it doesn't get nominated for deletion again!).
Just like avant-rock or alternative rock there has to be a different kind of genre for many of these bands. They simply can't fit into something like black metal (although some of them have black metal background and influence). Most of these bands are described in their articles why are they considered avant-garde and not under some of the more known metal genres.
Although there has to be a proof that this genre exists ( WP:No original research), avant garde metal is quite obvious. It is derived from the term Avant-garde (read this article, it is verified for a change) itself and heavy metal music. The combination of those two (Avant for experimentation, unusual characteristics and improvisation, and metal music (you should all know about this!!!)) naturally forms avant-garde metal.
Maybe the problem with this article is because not many people are familiar with this subject, but that doesn't mean that the article is for deletion. It seems to me nobody has problems with symphonic metal and I never heard of anything like that before, and it's not verified also. It's easy to keep something that is obvius and delete other things. But why avant-garde metal isn't that obvius to some as symphonic?
I would also like to ask those who voted to delete the article have they listened to any avant-garde metal band? Their works are quite unique and experimental and explain themselves. There is no need for a critic or a verifiable source for that (the music is the source itself!).
Also if you put them into another genre (or a couple of them) you would have the same problem as with Children of Bodom. Of course this does not mean that Chilren of Bodom is avant-garde metal, it is just a comparison.
I think this is it for now, thank you for your patience (if you read this you certainly have it!). Please leave a comment or two on this. Death2 22:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree you with in some ways, I mean this is definitely an obscure genre, but there are bands that do not really belong to anything but it, I think most notably being late Sigh, which really took away from black metal. Celtic Frost was really more important in death and thrash, so I can understand them being an exception (ie a good example as to why someone might not consider this a genre). Right now it isn't explained to badly but could use reworking. -- Ryouga 21:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
What's the difference between avant-garde metal and post-metal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.63.231.145 ( talk) 16:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I think Winds should be taken off. They lack the complete experimental structure that most of the other bands, epitometically Age of Silence, have. They're pretty obviously neo-classical.
Is there a user template for Metal Arts? I would like to proclaim that I make metal into art, but I can't find one.
-- Trentjohnson 14:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the "Difference with alternative" part is really vague and it looks like the only big difference is that avant-garde metal is considered more ‘metal’ than alternative metal. I don’t think that is correct. I think the main difference is that:
Anyone agrees? Then I’ll rewrite the "Difference with alternative" part. -- Emmaneul 13:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
(Written by Oliver Side from agm.com as a comment.) I'm also French, and I was the one who came up with the new etymological interpretation of the avant-garde as "Avant les gardes", or "Prior to the guards", in my article "What is Avant-Garde Metal?" (July 2009), which has been deleted from Wikipedia by I don't know who, but probably by someone who didn't like my article. You will not find any other article or book specifically defining the word itself like this, and I think it's a very accurate definition, musically speaking, the guards being the genres, and avant-garde music being genreless. Now when you write, about avant-garde, "more exactly it's a word...", I fail to see how you could seriously mean that. "More exactly", according to what and to who? To you? To some definition you read in some dictionary? In which way are you an authority on the subject, inasmuch as to decide what this concept is "more exactly" related to? As soon as one goes through the literature both in philosophy and aesthetics about the concept of avant-garde, it's quite easy to understand that there is absolutely NO consensual view to be found. Every thinker has his/her own way to interpret this borderline concept. Of course you take the "usual" and the most general (i.e. meaningless) definition of avant-garde, the one which can be found in dictionaries, "for the sake of accuracy". Isn't that exactly what everyone should try to avoid, whenever we try to "define" the avant-garde? In fact, to define the avant-garde like this couldn't be more inaccurate, since it restricts the concept to so little. If you really want to be an authority about avant-gardism in musical expression, write your own article or book or thesis and present it to us, then we will be able to know what exactly you mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.179.178.188 ( talk) 06:08, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Vote for deleting that part. It's original research and non-neutral point of view. It uses analogy for explanation. How is that usefull to the article? It's not even clear, and there is text contradicting it afterwards. 201.62.129.180 19:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Duhautpas: There's no need to try to belittle somebody who disagrees with you. Consider the possibility that he, as well as myself, are capable of reading and understanding the analogy and your reasons for including it and - gasp - still think it doesn't belong. For one, go read the article on metalstorm. Because an article lists "sources" doesn't mean that it is "sourced". I find the metal storm article to be nothing but opinion, with references to other open source databases. This is far, far from verifiable. Without further numbering my reasons, I support deleting the analogy as it adds absolutely nothing to the article, comes from a questionable source, does not follow its own internal logic, and is at best confusing. Just because something may seem clear to you does not mean it is coherent!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.176.188.201 ( talk) 19:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
There is a contradictory and pathetically biased statement in this article:
"While Mittel's analogy may be useful and clearer for some, it is not entirely true. While avant garde indeed ignores many conventional habits and is less concerned by theoretical considerations they still refer intuitively to some basic principles of the tonal language (the common musical grammar almost all western music uses) even though they tend to deviate very much from it."
Whoever wrote this is simply trying to discredit the term "avant-garde" and doesn't understand the concept of Tonality: all music follows the principles of "tonal language" as they put it. Genres are never distinguished upon their use of atonality, rather, to distinguish genres we find specific combination of many musical properties, not just one.
Personally, I believe nearly every metal band incorporates different "tonal language" -- again, i'm not using this term as a serious synonym for tonality, but as a reference to the statement above -- to their music (often in the same song), via post-production effects (Dream Theatre, Opeth, Pain of Salvation) or guitar tunings (Behold...The Arctopus, Meshuggah) or whatever else is out there. Also, the quote from Ethan Mittel shows that avant-garde metal is not improvisation per sé, but structured via improvisation, it says nothing about tonality.
In any case, The blurb definitely does not belong under "Differences from Progressive Metal"; it needs to be moved "Origin and debates about the term", and definitely re-written to specify what this shared tonal language (between Prog Metal and Avant-Garde metal) is.
As far as i'm concerned, the statement is up there for whoever wishes to use it, but I'm going to delete it to avoid any further confusion.
Tonality is completely moot in this portion of the article; it's not an issue.
The List of avant-garde metal musical groups has been deleted... ( Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_avant-garde_metal_musical_groups)
So we might start a list of key artists. The following list contains artists that were on the list (might not be very recent because I retrieved it from the google cache)--Emmaneul ( Talk) 08:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
* Aarni * Age of Silence * Arcturus * Atrophia Red Sun (ca. 2003) * Beyond Dawn * Blut Aus Nord (recent work) * Buckethead * Callisto * Carnival in Coal * Celtic Frost * / Cronian * DÅÅTH * Deathspell Omega (later works) * Diablo Swing Orchestra * Diabolical Masquerade * / Dødheimsgard * Dol Ammad * Ephel Duath * Estradasphere
* Fantômas * Fleurety * Gorguts * In the Woods... * Isis
* Karaboudjan * Kayo Dot * Kekal (later albums) * Korovakill (formerly Korova) * Lux Occulta * maudlin of the Well * Mayhem (ca. 2000) * Moonspell ("The Butterfly Effect" album) * Naked City * Nuclear Rabbit
* Pan.Thy.Monium * Peccatum * Pinkly Smooth * Ram-Zet * Sculptured * Sigh) * Solefald * Stargazer * Stolen Babies
* Ulver (ca. 1998) * uneXpect * Unholy * Ved Buens Ende * Vintersorg (ca. 2002) * Virus
This list is definitely better than the current one. But still, imho most sub-genres of heavy metal are already inherently avant-garde. So it's pretty much pointless to have an article like this. And personally I think, avant-garde metal has exclusively been attributed to mostly experimental BM bands, more so than any other stuff.
94.55.235.57 (
talk)
23:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Why does experimental metal redirect here? Avant-Garde certainly IS experimental, but that doesn't mean that they are the same thing. Kidburla2002 14:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I intend to delete Opeth from the list of notable avant-garde metal bands. I don't consider Opeth as an avant-garde metal band. It is rather a progressive death/extreme metal band. And most of the sources I can see so far confirm my feeling. Frédérick Duhautpas 19:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I think Canadian bands Voivod and Gorguts deserve a mention to this page. Voivod pioneered the use of dissonance, strange time signatures, and strange time structures to metal. They are probably one of the first Avant Garde metal bands along with Celtic Frost. Gorguts also deserves to be mentioned, listen to there album "Obscura" and you'll understand what I mean.
Hey, could Therion be included as Avant-garde metal. At least they are inspired by Celtic Frost, the one of the best knowable foundations. For example their most experimentalious record Symphony Masses Ho Darkon Ho Megas, has avant garde qualities, due to strange guitar work, sympho tones or in generally sound of Into the Pandemonium. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.156.250 ( talk) 15:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
"At the same time despite a large amount of eccentricities, unorthodox and unconventional traits, avant-garde still saves a certain number of specific traits of Heavy metal (most particularly its specific groove) unlike alternative."
Seems to me that some black/ death metal fan was trying to weasel in an opinion about alternative metal not being metal at all. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 02:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
As experimental metal is regarded to be the same as avant-garde metal here on wikipedia I think Meshuggah needs to be added to the list of key artist. Their last few recordings (f.e. I (EP) and Catch Thirty-Three) are very experimental and Meshuggah is referred to as experimental metal by numerous websites.
I have added them to the list. Kameejl ( Talk) 15:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
This list will always be subjective, but inclusion for some of these bands is just a little too questionable. Otep? Meshuggah? Dog Fashion Disco? What next, are Korn going to be added on this list because they use bagpipes in their music? LOL. There's some obvious dispute mentioned by others, so rather than a complete removal, just separated the list...fair enough.-- Danteferno ( talk) 01:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
As a reaction to Danteferno:
The list of "important" avant-garde bands is slightly misleading. This can confuse people into thinking that only the bands on that list are worth anything. I"m going to change it to "noteworthy" instead. Dark Executioner ( talk) 16:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
There is a contradictory and pathetically biased statement in this article:
"While Mittel's analogy may be useful and clearer for some, it is not entirely true. While avant garde indeed ignores many conventional habits and is less concerned by theoretical considerations they still refer intuitively to some basic principles of the tonal language (the common musical grammar almost all western music uses) even though they tend to deviate very much from it."
Whoever wrote this is simply trying to discredit the term "avant-garde" and doesn't understand the concept of Tonality: all music follows the principles of "tonal language" as they put it. Genres are never distinguished upon their use of atonality, rather, to distinguish genres we find specific combination of many musical properties, not just one.
Personally, I believe nearly every metal band incorporates different "tonal language" -- again, i'm not using this term as a serious synonym for tonality, but as a reference to the statement above -- to their music (often in the same song), via post-production effects (Dream Theatre, Opeth, Pain of Salvation) or guitar tunings (Behold...The Arctopus, Meshuggah) or whatever else is out there. Also, the quote from Ethan Mittel shows that avant-garde metal is not improvisation per sé, but structured via improvisation, it says nothing about tonality.
In any case, The blurb definitely does not belong under "Differences from Progressive Metal"; it needs to be moved "Origin and debates about the term", and definitely re-written to specify what this shared tonal language (between Prog Metal and Avant-Garde metal) is.
As far as i'm concerned, the statement is up there for whoever wishes to use it, but I'm going to delete it to avoid any further confusion.
Tonality is completely moot in this portion of the article; it's not an issue.
And doesn't understand the concept of Tonality: all music follows the principles of "tonal language" as they put it. Genres are never distinguished upon their use of atonality, rather, to distinguish genres we find specific combination of many musical properties, not just one.
---
"I was stating that avant-garde metal while being daring and imaginative still doesn’t only use its imagination as Mittels put it, but also uses traditional elements like using tonality."
I recognized this. Perhaps I should typed "And shouldn't be using 'tonality' in this context" as I DEEPLY offended you (I would pummel my past self before he typed that shit above, if that makes you feel any better). My point was, that this "nuancing" (as you put it) is perhaps too picky and somewhat useless (in defining "avant-garde metal)
...To me that section of the article was equivalent to saying "Univers Zero construct hierarchical melodies, with tonal centers, once and a while..."
Do what you want with it now
As far as "tonal language" goes it's all the same boat to me; pitches constructed are tones in a language. "Atonality"..."Tonality"...both refer to different types/methods of organizing pitches... It's a communication of tones. Had I known an academic type would berate me, I would've stated "In My Opinion" or some such...
Or maybe it wasn't necessary:
"Controversy over the term itself" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonality
If you can't tell, I don't spend my time on Wiki, nor do I have the passion for it as some do. But I'm glad to see this article actually shaped up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.25.77.125 ( talk) 18:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody else even bother to check things? There was a source cited fairly extensively in this article. Click on the
link. The first thing that should give it away is the website. Metalstorm.ee relies on submissions by users. Just like the more well-known metal-archives. The second thing that should attract one's attention is the "Guest article disclaimer" placed right at the very top of the article in bright yellow. So what is a guest article on metalstorm.ee? No prizes for figuring it out: guest articles are contributions by users. This particular contributor is not anonymous. He provides a name: Ethan "Insineratehymn" Mittel. Click on his
user page. He even provides some photos and information about himself. Oh look, he was born on 19 September 1990. The article was published on metalstorm.ee on 21 November 2006. He was a 16 years old kid when he wrote that article. And this is being used as a source on wikipedia? Not to sound all ageist but that is just absurd. I realize that the article he wrote is pretty impressive for a 16 years old kid. Lots of interesting points he made. Doesn't change the fact that it's a 16 years old fan of the genre contributing an article to a website based on submissions by users. Doesn't change the fact that this is anything but a
reliable source. If nothing else though, the very first line of the article should have tipped anyone off: he quotes the definition of avant-garde metal from wikipedia. A definition that was not supported by any reliable source here but instead falls under original research. This is actually a case of unverified information on an article being cited by an unreliable source and being cited back on the article page.
I have removed that unreliable source and every other piece of original research that was on this article and replaced it with a few paragraphs of info that I got from the avant-garde metal website. I am not very familiar with the genre in question, only knowing a few bands on the list. Yet I can whip out a few paragraphs worth of information that's fully referenced by sources that are actually reliable. I have little interest or desire to expand this article any further though. So feel free to add more to this article. I will be popping back in every now and then though to make sure that any contribution to this article fits in the wikipedia policies of
verifiability,
no original research and
reliable source. If you want to specify the cultural or stylistic origins as something other than varied, I would expect to see something to back up any entry. An account of the genre's history should suffice. --
Bardin (
talk)
00:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
"put back in some things that were previously removed for no good reason, they need improvement, not deletion"
Started the above page. It's an older version of this article and I believe information can still be gleaned from it (hell, I just added a few things back into the article a while back that's stragiht from the older citation and was sourced). So let's take what we want from it and source it and then we don't have to use the rest. Purely for verification purposes. Hope this helps. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 20:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I tried to add my band's myspace page to the avant-garde metal wikipedia page and it was quickly deleted. I was told I needed a reliable source to claim that it is an avant-garde metal band. This is b.s. The entire avant-garde metal page is b.s. And the worst part is the discussion page. None of you understand the concept of metal, the notion of avant-garde, and aesthetics of music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.251.62 ( talk) 06:35, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
they're classed as A-G metal in their wiki article and certainly fit the description. added. RPTechnic ( talk) 04:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
What would System of a Down be considered? Are they Progressive Metal or Avant-Garde Metal? Xx1994xx ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC).
--Neither! Alternative Metal at best, and this really isn't the forum to ask, do ya think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.0.7 ( talk) 03:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah no way in hell are they neither and only people who aren't aware of experimental or progressive metal think they're alternative metal. Xx1994xx ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC).
In order to fit in a sub-genre of metal, a band must first actually be metal, which SOAD is not. Drink bleach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.231.78.74 ( talk) 23:54, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
OK, before I start gutting the list on the basis that almost nothing on there passes WP:RS, I'm just going to give other editors a day or so to explain how avantgarde-metal.com might pass? It appears to be a webzine (hence no chance of passing); the website includes a section titled "print mags" but there's no indication that they were published by a third party... if they weren't they fail under WP:SPS. Either way the list needs hugely trimming in line with other metal list articles. Blackmetalbaz ( talk) 14:58, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
So it's you who erases avantgarde-metal.com? How might it pass, you ask? Well, it's the first website to be 100% dedicated to avant-garde metal, including interviews with very important composers from the "genre", reviews of avant-garde metal albums, as well as other special articles. It's been existing since 2007. All the bands listed on Wikipedia as agm bands, have been featured on avantgarde-metal.com. The website doesn't claim to hold the truth, but I think it would still be important for potential avant-garde metal fans, to know about it, if only to learn about new original bands playing metal. What else do you want, to have it pass? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.179.178.188 ( talk) 20:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
We don't posture and we don't pose as the centergate to the truth about avant-garde metal, it's just that we're a bunch of experienced longtime explorers of the alternate definitions of metal music. If you are a fan, please encourage our website only as a portal to exploring the genre, and if you're not a fan of that kind of music, well, I wonder why you're willing to apply so blindly the Wikipedia god-given laws regarding verifiability. If we interview Vicotnik, and Vicotnik says avant-garde metal is close to his heart, and metal history (look for the reviews out there) agrees to the fact that 666 International was indeed ahead of its time, musically, lyrically, visually, conceptually, etc., and we publish this online - how verifiable is this for you? As any other publication, we have writers writing reviews, and this could never be objective, but what about interviews? Isn't the newcoming explorer of avant-garde metal interested in finding out what the artists themselves behind such music have to say? Do we mislead him, or do we indicate a false, unverifiable source, by giving him the opportunity to read directly to the source, so to speak? Come on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.179.178.188 ( talk) 05:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Any inclusion on the list needs either the explict use of "avan-garde metal" or "experimental metal" in a reliable source. Many on the list do not an will be removed. If, say, MusicMight lists the genre assay, "Avant-garde, Death Metal", that is not enough, and any attempt to claim otherwise is pure WP:SYNTH. Blackmetalbaz ( talk) 12:24, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Is Animals as Leaders too new to be considered a notable experimental metal band? Although they are new, they showcase many qualities of the genre and I believe they are a quintessential example of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.254.2 ( talk) 16:39, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
This refers to Sleepytime Gorilla Museum as "avant-metal". Now, normally I would go with a specific citation - either "avant-garde metal" or "experimental metal" - but in this case, I think it could qualify as a citation. What else would "avant-metal" refer to other than "avant-garde metal"? -- LordNecronus ( talk) 13:34, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Why is someone systematically removing any reference to Avantgarde-Metal.com, as well as the reference to Oliver Side's article, "What is Avant-Garde Metal?". AudioDreamer ( talk) 04:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
If Wikipedia is not a collection of links, then how come there are 23 links leading up to websites (how reliable is this?) which feature reviews of bands considered by the authors of the reviews (god knows who) as avant-garde metal? Except for the book, all the references cited are not from professional music publication or peer-reviewed paper or book. By the way, there is NO book called Avant-Garde Metal written by Ian Christe and published by Harper Paperbacks, so this is at best a misrepresentation of reality. In fact, Christe published "Sound of the Beast: The Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal", with a section about avant-garde metal. He published it in 2003, and during the last 7 years or so, a lot has happened in the real world of Avant-Garde Metal, while nothing new has happened in his book. Wow, what a reliable source eh. In this context, why avantgarde-metal.com, the only website specifically and explicitly dedicated to the study and diffusion of avant-garde metal, could not be added at least to the links? Furthermore, it is a fact, avantgarde-metal.com does exist, so why could it not appear in the Wikipedia body text on avant-garde metal, not as advertising or promotion (which you seem to believe is my intention in putting the links), but as essential information for any avant-garde metal fan, fin connaisseur or not. Look around on the internet, there is no other website called avant-garde metal or studying the properties of avant-garde metal as such, in and of itself, both musically and conceptually. According to the reality of musical knowledge on avant-garde metal, and the body of work now existing on the subject, which Wikipedia is supposed to represent the most honestly on this page, avantgarde-metal.com should be known for its serious work in the development of media knowledge about this unique and present-day musical movement. What do you think? I think that by preventing me to publish this information on avant-garde metal, you are being an "Anti-Avantgarde-metal.com" Warrior, which is close enough to the Genre Warriors you pretend to be against. AudioDreamer ( talk) 04:19, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
As for the article of Mr. Side, who has recently become chief editor of avantgarde-metal.com (long after our first trials at getting Side's article here, in fact since July 2009), once more I fail to see why it could not at least be linked somewhere on the page. Look around on Wikipedia, many MA and PHD researchers are putting up links to their work, in the case someone else who is also doing research into the same area, might be interested. This is common sense, really. What's wrong with that? I don't understand. So even if I was Side, who I'm not, there wouldn't be anything wrong about this. I mean, is Side's paper unofficial, because it has been professionally edited by our working editors, and seriously written by a professional philosopher of our time, who not only weirdly happens to enjoy avant-garde metal, but who also has worked to give it some sort of philosophical contextualization, something which had never been done before? Again, what's wrong with that? Please discuss it honestly with me, as I want to understand your point. AudioDreamer ( talk) 04:19, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed Tiamat. From my judgement, there is nothing Avant-Garde about them at all; all their songs just sound like regular gothic metal. Their wikipedia article does not list them as Avante-Garde Metal, and the citation listed was a link to a bio about Opeth. If someone can find a better source there is no problem with putting it back on the list, but it doesn't seem to be obvious that Tiamat belongs on the list, and the citation given was completely unrelated. The only place I can find the words "Tiamat" and "avant-garde" in the same place are avant-garde-metal.com and A Deeper Kind of Slumber, which is really more post-metal than avant-garde metal. 24.2.51.248 ( talk) 00:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
One guy says Tiamat is not Avant-Garde Metal from his judgement, while the other guy says yes it is, according to a review found online. What is objective about the first guy's judgement? What is objective about the other guy's review? What is objective about this conversation? Yes indeed, Tiamat have been considered by many to have had an impact on the avantgardization of metal during the nineties. Study your metal, man. It's neither a personal judgement nor a review which will change that. But "considered by many", what is objective about that? One of the problems here is that we have people from very different backgrounds, sometimes with not much of an idea about the history of avant-garde metal music, but with big egos and therefore with ideas even larger than their actual knowledge. I'm not saying Tiamat are Avant-Garde Metal nowadays though, cause they're not. But they've been seen by most printed metal magazines you will find from the nineties, as quite experimental for the time, not that they were the only ones. Now what should we do, feature them or not? Who has an objective answer to that? Here is a 2007 review of their Wildhoney album: http://www.avantgarde-metal.com/content/reviews2.php?id=124 AudioDreamer ( talk) 04:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
→Iwrestledabearonce has avant-garde metal in their page, why are they not listed as one of the bands here in this page? Jw, they'rea notable worthy band, so why can't they be in the list as well?←-- IAmSuchALoser ( talk) 15:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Nvm, i added them myself, they are very avant-garde, check them out if youd like.
I added Benea Reach, only to have the addition reverted. Is it a question of whether they should be classified as avant-garde metal, or whether they are notable? The latter I can understand, but the former I cannot. The review says that "You'll hear everything from doom to metalcore to avant garde to math metal." If this does not qualify it as avant-garde metal, then as far as I can see the given sources for Ulver and Maudlin do not qualify, as the sources do not explicitly call them avant-garde or experimental metal, Triptykon should not be included because it says that the album is beneficial to fans of avant-garde metal, not that it is avant-garde metal. Again, if Benea Reach is an issue of notability, I will concede, but if otherwise, some other bands should be removed as well.-- 3family6 ( talk) 22:32, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
It's been a while since I last checked this article, and I personally feel that the list of avant-garde metal bands has taken a turn for the worst. However, I'll try and ignore most of it, in keeping with Wikipedia's policies regarding citations, and concentrate on one artist that I think I can argue for the removal of: Pentagram.
When I first saw Pentagram listed, I laughed, assuming it was the American doom metal band that has fuck-all to do with anything experimental or avant-garde. Then I remembered that there's more than one metal band called Pentagram, and that I wasn't sure which band was listed -- was it the aforementioned American band, was it the Turkish band that I've never listened to, or was there some other Pentagram that actually plays avant-garde metal that I've never heard of? I clicked on the source and found that the page is unavailable for viewing, meaning there's nothing that reliably backs up Pentagram's inclusion.
So, what I'm asking is: until a reliable source has been found that actually calls them avant-garde metal or experimental metal (that I can also actually read), could Pentagram be removed from the list? -- LordNecronus ( talk) 23:13, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Okay, this is what I have found. The Indian band called Pentagram isn't considered metal, and it is fairly obscure, so we can pretty much rule that band out. Now, the book could be referring to the Turkish metal band, but it is known internationally as Mezarkabul, and the book would almost certainly refer to it by that name. In addition to that, the big name Pentagram recorded a cover for a Syd Barrett tribute album. So, basically, all the evidence points to the American band.-- ¿3fam ily6 contribs 14:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
What the f*** is going on with the list of bands? We could remove 90% of listed bands... Vater-96 ( talk) 22:01, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Over half the bands listed are sourced as "experimental metal." Personally, I think that "experimental metal" is a broader term than "avant-garde metal," but I haven't found a reliable source to confirm this, though there is at least one that claims that the two genres are the same.-- ¿3fam ily6 contribs 01:48, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
"Major pioneers of the genre include Celtic Frost,[6][3] Voivod,[6][3] Sunn O))),[7][3] Fleurety,[3] Ved Buens Ende,[3] and Maudlin of the Well.[8][3] Most of these bands were part of the early black metal or progressive metal genres, or both"
That sentence is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in my whole life, Sunn O))) are not (and weren't) part of any Prog or Black Metal scene, remove that you stupid zipperheads,
PLUS, if I see one more time Brachiosauride being removed from the list, I will do sth you'll definitely regret. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.255.32.21 ( talk) 19:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Reliable sources say Sunn were part of a Black/Prog Metal scene? really?? Are those the same idiots who are saying 30 Second To Mars are a Progressive Metal band?? (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_progressive_metal_artists), Maybe useless sites such as Allmusic sound reliable for a fake Pop/Dance band, but things are completely different in the underground scene, the website Heavy Planet which I referred to Brachiosauride is one of the most important places on the net, sure you don't know who Brant Bjork is... about Sunn I think I should talk to Stephen (O'Malley) about that and it certainly won't be so good for you, I had somehow the same problem with another retard at Last.fm some months ago about Neurosis' wiki, he didn't listen to what I said and he's not doing great now cause Scott Kelly talked to Last.fm's main moderator about that.. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
149.255.32.21 (
talk)
06:53, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I think the main issue with including Brachiosauride in the list, is that is a new band, in other words, it isn't notable enough, they even don't have a wikipedia article, and don't expect'em to be included soon, there are lots of bands that have been touring since 2008-2009 and stills excluded from wikipedia. The list that appears in this article might include only the most representative bands in the avant-garde metal genre. Finally, after given a listen to the band, i'd say that they are much more sludge and progressive metal (like Mastodon) than avant-garde. Nicrorus ( talk) 02:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
If more of the cited references use "experimental metal" rather than "avant-garde metal", shouldn't we change the article name? Blackmetalbaz ( talk) 10:57, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ ( talk) 23:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Avant-garde metal → Experimental metal – Experimental metal is used far more in sources than avant-garde metal. ¿3fam ily6 contribs 22:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to suggested title. ( non-admin closure) Calidum Talk To Me 05:01, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Experimental metal →
Avant-garde metal – this name is used in the cited sources written by Freeborn, Bowar, Christe and Peterik (currently refs numbered 1, 2, 5 and 6). Fricke (#7) uses avant-metal. Buts (#3) is the only one out of these 6 to use "experimental metal" as the leading term, although Bowar includes it as an alternative. Moreover, the name "experimental metal" is ambiguous as mentioned in the 2012 RM above. –
Fayenatic
L
ondon
16:57, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Need sources to state black metal's origin for this genre. I don't disagree, but we need a source. I've tagged it, but removed extreme metal as it's not mentioned in the prose. Remember, not everyone coming to this article will know what this genre is, and we don't want to make it more confusing. Thoughts? Andrzejbanas ( talk) 15:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
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Meshuggah has very little to do with avant-garde metal. They're not experimental nor atmospheric and nearly all songs have a similar structure. The only experimentation in their music was the beginning of the extensive use of polymeters in the early 90s which has since defined their sound. Vrezerino ( talk) 01:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
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I added Greek band Dol Ammad to the list of example bands. The fourteen-piece choir alone probably qualifies them for avant-garde as opposed to conventional prog metal. Irene Ringworm 01:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
_________________________________________________
Can someone also add Agalloch to the band list? I believe they are very influential in this genre. ( i don't know how to edit wikipedia )
-anon
What about Fantômas, The Melvins, and Faith No More? - leigh [[user talk:phthoggos|(φθόγ-- IAmSuchALoser ( talk) 16:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)γος)]] 09:25, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Metal Storm http://www.metalstorm.ee/pub/article.php?article_id=161
Encyclopaedia Metallum http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=1383
Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fant%C3%B4mas_(band)
Last.fm http://www.last.fm/music/Fant%C3%B4mas 11 @ http://www.last.fm/tag/avant-garde+metal
Prog Archives http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1499
Emmaneul 21:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that The Melvins deserve a brief mention here because they were really avantgarde in 80s metal, despite that they are nowadays commonly labeled as "sludge", "doom", "alternative metal" or whatever. Avantgarde metal bands as Isis, Boris, Neurosis etc. cite 'em as their huge influence, so I think they should be included. Nothingagainst 15:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion. There was, however, no consensus to delete. A full review of the discussion can be found here. Tom e r talk 07:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to add a few thoughts about Avant garde metal. I wasn't here when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avant garde metal this article was up for deletion so I will respond now (in an effort to improve it so that it doesn't get nominated for deletion again!).
Just like avant-rock or alternative rock there has to be a different kind of genre for many of these bands. They simply can't fit into something like black metal (although some of them have black metal background and influence). Most of these bands are described in their articles why are they considered avant-garde and not under some of the more known metal genres.
Although there has to be a proof that this genre exists ( WP:No original research), avant garde metal is quite obvious. It is derived from the term Avant-garde (read this article, it is verified for a change) itself and heavy metal music. The combination of those two (Avant for experimentation, unusual characteristics and improvisation, and metal music (you should all know about this!!!)) naturally forms avant-garde metal.
Maybe the problem with this article is because not many people are familiar with this subject, but that doesn't mean that the article is for deletion. It seems to me nobody has problems with symphonic metal and I never heard of anything like that before, and it's not verified also. It's easy to keep something that is obvius and delete other things. But why avant-garde metal isn't that obvius to some as symphonic?
I would also like to ask those who voted to delete the article have they listened to any avant-garde metal band? Their works are quite unique and experimental and explain themselves. There is no need for a critic or a verifiable source for that (the music is the source itself!).
Also if you put them into another genre (or a couple of them) you would have the same problem as with Children of Bodom. Of course this does not mean that Chilren of Bodom is avant-garde metal, it is just a comparison.
I think this is it for now, thank you for your patience (if you read this you certainly have it!). Please leave a comment or two on this. Death2 22:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree you with in some ways, I mean this is definitely an obscure genre, but there are bands that do not really belong to anything but it, I think most notably being late Sigh, which really took away from black metal. Celtic Frost was really more important in death and thrash, so I can understand them being an exception (ie a good example as to why someone might not consider this a genre). Right now it isn't explained to badly but could use reworking. -- Ryouga 21:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
What's the difference between avant-garde metal and post-metal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.63.231.145 ( talk) 16:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I think Winds should be taken off. They lack the complete experimental structure that most of the other bands, epitometically Age of Silence, have. They're pretty obviously neo-classical.
Is there a user template for Metal Arts? I would like to proclaim that I make metal into art, but I can't find one.
-- Trentjohnson 14:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the "Difference with alternative" part is really vague and it looks like the only big difference is that avant-garde metal is considered more ‘metal’ than alternative metal. I don’t think that is correct. I think the main difference is that:
Anyone agrees? Then I’ll rewrite the "Difference with alternative" part. -- Emmaneul 13:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
(Written by Oliver Side from agm.com as a comment.) I'm also French, and I was the one who came up with the new etymological interpretation of the avant-garde as "Avant les gardes", or "Prior to the guards", in my article "What is Avant-Garde Metal?" (July 2009), which has been deleted from Wikipedia by I don't know who, but probably by someone who didn't like my article. You will not find any other article or book specifically defining the word itself like this, and I think it's a very accurate definition, musically speaking, the guards being the genres, and avant-garde music being genreless. Now when you write, about avant-garde, "more exactly it's a word...", I fail to see how you could seriously mean that. "More exactly", according to what and to who? To you? To some definition you read in some dictionary? In which way are you an authority on the subject, inasmuch as to decide what this concept is "more exactly" related to? As soon as one goes through the literature both in philosophy and aesthetics about the concept of avant-garde, it's quite easy to understand that there is absolutely NO consensual view to be found. Every thinker has his/her own way to interpret this borderline concept. Of course you take the "usual" and the most general (i.e. meaningless) definition of avant-garde, the one which can be found in dictionaries, "for the sake of accuracy". Isn't that exactly what everyone should try to avoid, whenever we try to "define" the avant-garde? In fact, to define the avant-garde like this couldn't be more inaccurate, since it restricts the concept to so little. If you really want to be an authority about avant-gardism in musical expression, write your own article or book or thesis and present it to us, then we will be able to know what exactly you mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.179.178.188 ( talk) 06:08, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Vote for deleting that part. It's original research and non-neutral point of view. It uses analogy for explanation. How is that usefull to the article? It's not even clear, and there is text contradicting it afterwards. 201.62.129.180 19:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Duhautpas: There's no need to try to belittle somebody who disagrees with you. Consider the possibility that he, as well as myself, are capable of reading and understanding the analogy and your reasons for including it and - gasp - still think it doesn't belong. For one, go read the article on metalstorm. Because an article lists "sources" doesn't mean that it is "sourced". I find the metal storm article to be nothing but opinion, with references to other open source databases. This is far, far from verifiable. Without further numbering my reasons, I support deleting the analogy as it adds absolutely nothing to the article, comes from a questionable source, does not follow its own internal logic, and is at best confusing. Just because something may seem clear to you does not mean it is coherent!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.176.188.201 ( talk) 19:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
There is a contradictory and pathetically biased statement in this article:
"While Mittel's analogy may be useful and clearer for some, it is not entirely true. While avant garde indeed ignores many conventional habits and is less concerned by theoretical considerations they still refer intuitively to some basic principles of the tonal language (the common musical grammar almost all western music uses) even though they tend to deviate very much from it."
Whoever wrote this is simply trying to discredit the term "avant-garde" and doesn't understand the concept of Tonality: all music follows the principles of "tonal language" as they put it. Genres are never distinguished upon their use of atonality, rather, to distinguish genres we find specific combination of many musical properties, not just one.
Personally, I believe nearly every metal band incorporates different "tonal language" -- again, i'm not using this term as a serious synonym for tonality, but as a reference to the statement above -- to their music (often in the same song), via post-production effects (Dream Theatre, Opeth, Pain of Salvation) or guitar tunings (Behold...The Arctopus, Meshuggah) or whatever else is out there. Also, the quote from Ethan Mittel shows that avant-garde metal is not improvisation per sé, but structured via improvisation, it says nothing about tonality.
In any case, The blurb definitely does not belong under "Differences from Progressive Metal"; it needs to be moved "Origin and debates about the term", and definitely re-written to specify what this shared tonal language (between Prog Metal and Avant-Garde metal) is.
As far as i'm concerned, the statement is up there for whoever wishes to use it, but I'm going to delete it to avoid any further confusion.
Tonality is completely moot in this portion of the article; it's not an issue.
The List of avant-garde metal musical groups has been deleted... ( Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_avant-garde_metal_musical_groups)
So we might start a list of key artists. The following list contains artists that were on the list (might not be very recent because I retrieved it from the google cache)--Emmaneul ( Talk) 08:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
* Aarni * Age of Silence * Arcturus * Atrophia Red Sun (ca. 2003) * Beyond Dawn * Blut Aus Nord (recent work) * Buckethead * Callisto * Carnival in Coal * Celtic Frost * / Cronian * DÅÅTH * Deathspell Omega (later works) * Diablo Swing Orchestra * Diabolical Masquerade * / Dødheimsgard * Dol Ammad * Ephel Duath * Estradasphere
* Fantômas * Fleurety * Gorguts * In the Woods... * Isis
* Karaboudjan * Kayo Dot * Kekal (later albums) * Korovakill (formerly Korova) * Lux Occulta * maudlin of the Well * Mayhem (ca. 2000) * Moonspell ("The Butterfly Effect" album) * Naked City * Nuclear Rabbit
* Pan.Thy.Monium * Peccatum * Pinkly Smooth * Ram-Zet * Sculptured * Sigh) * Solefald * Stargazer * Stolen Babies
* Ulver (ca. 1998) * uneXpect * Unholy * Ved Buens Ende * Vintersorg (ca. 2002) * Virus
This list is definitely better than the current one. But still, imho most sub-genres of heavy metal are already inherently avant-garde. So it's pretty much pointless to have an article like this. And personally I think, avant-garde metal has exclusively been attributed to mostly experimental BM bands, more so than any other stuff.
94.55.235.57 (
talk)
23:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Why does experimental metal redirect here? Avant-Garde certainly IS experimental, but that doesn't mean that they are the same thing. Kidburla2002 14:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I intend to delete Opeth from the list of notable avant-garde metal bands. I don't consider Opeth as an avant-garde metal band. It is rather a progressive death/extreme metal band. And most of the sources I can see so far confirm my feeling. Frédérick Duhautpas 19:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I think Canadian bands Voivod and Gorguts deserve a mention to this page. Voivod pioneered the use of dissonance, strange time signatures, and strange time structures to metal. They are probably one of the first Avant Garde metal bands along with Celtic Frost. Gorguts also deserves to be mentioned, listen to there album "Obscura" and you'll understand what I mean.
Hey, could Therion be included as Avant-garde metal. At least they are inspired by Celtic Frost, the one of the best knowable foundations. For example their most experimentalious record Symphony Masses Ho Darkon Ho Megas, has avant garde qualities, due to strange guitar work, sympho tones or in generally sound of Into the Pandemonium. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.156.250 ( talk) 15:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
"At the same time despite a large amount of eccentricities, unorthodox and unconventional traits, avant-garde still saves a certain number of specific traits of Heavy metal (most particularly its specific groove) unlike alternative."
Seems to me that some black/ death metal fan was trying to weasel in an opinion about alternative metal not being metal at all. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 02:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
As experimental metal is regarded to be the same as avant-garde metal here on wikipedia I think Meshuggah needs to be added to the list of key artist. Their last few recordings (f.e. I (EP) and Catch Thirty-Three) are very experimental and Meshuggah is referred to as experimental metal by numerous websites.
I have added them to the list. Kameejl ( Talk) 15:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
This list will always be subjective, but inclusion for some of these bands is just a little too questionable. Otep? Meshuggah? Dog Fashion Disco? What next, are Korn going to be added on this list because they use bagpipes in their music? LOL. There's some obvious dispute mentioned by others, so rather than a complete removal, just separated the list...fair enough.-- Danteferno ( talk) 01:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
As a reaction to Danteferno:
The list of "important" avant-garde bands is slightly misleading. This can confuse people into thinking that only the bands on that list are worth anything. I"m going to change it to "noteworthy" instead. Dark Executioner ( talk) 16:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
There is a contradictory and pathetically biased statement in this article:
"While Mittel's analogy may be useful and clearer for some, it is not entirely true. While avant garde indeed ignores many conventional habits and is less concerned by theoretical considerations they still refer intuitively to some basic principles of the tonal language (the common musical grammar almost all western music uses) even though they tend to deviate very much from it."
Whoever wrote this is simply trying to discredit the term "avant-garde" and doesn't understand the concept of Tonality: all music follows the principles of "tonal language" as they put it. Genres are never distinguished upon their use of atonality, rather, to distinguish genres we find specific combination of many musical properties, not just one.
Personally, I believe nearly every metal band incorporates different "tonal language" -- again, i'm not using this term as a serious synonym for tonality, but as a reference to the statement above -- to their music (often in the same song), via post-production effects (Dream Theatre, Opeth, Pain of Salvation) or guitar tunings (Behold...The Arctopus, Meshuggah) or whatever else is out there. Also, the quote from Ethan Mittel shows that avant-garde metal is not improvisation per sé, but structured via improvisation, it says nothing about tonality.
In any case, The blurb definitely does not belong under "Differences from Progressive Metal"; it needs to be moved "Origin and debates about the term", and definitely re-written to specify what this shared tonal language (between Prog Metal and Avant-Garde metal) is.
As far as i'm concerned, the statement is up there for whoever wishes to use it, but I'm going to delete it to avoid any further confusion.
Tonality is completely moot in this portion of the article; it's not an issue.
And doesn't understand the concept of Tonality: all music follows the principles of "tonal language" as they put it. Genres are never distinguished upon their use of atonality, rather, to distinguish genres we find specific combination of many musical properties, not just one.
---
"I was stating that avant-garde metal while being daring and imaginative still doesn’t only use its imagination as Mittels put it, but also uses traditional elements like using tonality."
I recognized this. Perhaps I should typed "And shouldn't be using 'tonality' in this context" as I DEEPLY offended you (I would pummel my past self before he typed that shit above, if that makes you feel any better). My point was, that this "nuancing" (as you put it) is perhaps too picky and somewhat useless (in defining "avant-garde metal)
...To me that section of the article was equivalent to saying "Univers Zero construct hierarchical melodies, with tonal centers, once and a while..."
Do what you want with it now
As far as "tonal language" goes it's all the same boat to me; pitches constructed are tones in a language. "Atonality"..."Tonality"...both refer to different types/methods of organizing pitches... It's a communication of tones. Had I known an academic type would berate me, I would've stated "In My Opinion" or some such...
Or maybe it wasn't necessary:
"Controversy over the term itself" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonality
If you can't tell, I don't spend my time on Wiki, nor do I have the passion for it as some do. But I'm glad to see this article actually shaped up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.25.77.125 ( talk) 18:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody else even bother to check things? There was a source cited fairly extensively in this article. Click on the
link. The first thing that should give it away is the website. Metalstorm.ee relies on submissions by users. Just like the more well-known metal-archives. The second thing that should attract one's attention is the "Guest article disclaimer" placed right at the very top of the article in bright yellow. So what is a guest article on metalstorm.ee? No prizes for figuring it out: guest articles are contributions by users. This particular contributor is not anonymous. He provides a name: Ethan "Insineratehymn" Mittel. Click on his
user page. He even provides some photos and information about himself. Oh look, he was born on 19 September 1990. The article was published on metalstorm.ee on 21 November 2006. He was a 16 years old kid when he wrote that article. And this is being used as a source on wikipedia? Not to sound all ageist but that is just absurd. I realize that the article he wrote is pretty impressive for a 16 years old kid. Lots of interesting points he made. Doesn't change the fact that it's a 16 years old fan of the genre contributing an article to a website based on submissions by users. Doesn't change the fact that this is anything but a
reliable source. If nothing else though, the very first line of the article should have tipped anyone off: he quotes the definition of avant-garde metal from wikipedia. A definition that was not supported by any reliable source here but instead falls under original research. This is actually a case of unverified information on an article being cited by an unreliable source and being cited back on the article page.
I have removed that unreliable source and every other piece of original research that was on this article and replaced it with a few paragraphs of info that I got from the avant-garde metal website. I am not very familiar with the genre in question, only knowing a few bands on the list. Yet I can whip out a few paragraphs worth of information that's fully referenced by sources that are actually reliable. I have little interest or desire to expand this article any further though. So feel free to add more to this article. I will be popping back in every now and then though to make sure that any contribution to this article fits in the wikipedia policies of
verifiability,
no original research and
reliable source. If you want to specify the cultural or stylistic origins as something other than varied, I would expect to see something to back up any entry. An account of the genre's history should suffice. --
Bardin (
talk)
00:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
"put back in some things that were previously removed for no good reason, they need improvement, not deletion"
Started the above page. It's an older version of this article and I believe information can still be gleaned from it (hell, I just added a few things back into the article a while back that's stragiht from the older citation and was sourced). So let's take what we want from it and source it and then we don't have to use the rest. Purely for verification purposes. Hope this helps. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 20:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I tried to add my band's myspace page to the avant-garde metal wikipedia page and it was quickly deleted. I was told I needed a reliable source to claim that it is an avant-garde metal band. This is b.s. The entire avant-garde metal page is b.s. And the worst part is the discussion page. None of you understand the concept of metal, the notion of avant-garde, and aesthetics of music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.251.62 ( talk) 06:35, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
they're classed as A-G metal in their wiki article and certainly fit the description. added. RPTechnic ( talk) 04:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
What would System of a Down be considered? Are they Progressive Metal or Avant-Garde Metal? Xx1994xx ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC).
--Neither! Alternative Metal at best, and this really isn't the forum to ask, do ya think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.0.7 ( talk) 03:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah no way in hell are they neither and only people who aren't aware of experimental or progressive metal think they're alternative metal. Xx1994xx ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC).
In order to fit in a sub-genre of metal, a band must first actually be metal, which SOAD is not. Drink bleach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.231.78.74 ( talk) 23:54, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
OK, before I start gutting the list on the basis that almost nothing on there passes WP:RS, I'm just going to give other editors a day or so to explain how avantgarde-metal.com might pass? It appears to be a webzine (hence no chance of passing); the website includes a section titled "print mags" but there's no indication that they were published by a third party... if they weren't they fail under WP:SPS. Either way the list needs hugely trimming in line with other metal list articles. Blackmetalbaz ( talk) 14:58, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
So it's you who erases avantgarde-metal.com? How might it pass, you ask? Well, it's the first website to be 100% dedicated to avant-garde metal, including interviews with very important composers from the "genre", reviews of avant-garde metal albums, as well as other special articles. It's been existing since 2007. All the bands listed on Wikipedia as agm bands, have been featured on avantgarde-metal.com. The website doesn't claim to hold the truth, but I think it would still be important for potential avant-garde metal fans, to know about it, if only to learn about new original bands playing metal. What else do you want, to have it pass? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.179.178.188 ( talk) 20:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
We don't posture and we don't pose as the centergate to the truth about avant-garde metal, it's just that we're a bunch of experienced longtime explorers of the alternate definitions of metal music. If you are a fan, please encourage our website only as a portal to exploring the genre, and if you're not a fan of that kind of music, well, I wonder why you're willing to apply so blindly the Wikipedia god-given laws regarding verifiability. If we interview Vicotnik, and Vicotnik says avant-garde metal is close to his heart, and metal history (look for the reviews out there) agrees to the fact that 666 International was indeed ahead of its time, musically, lyrically, visually, conceptually, etc., and we publish this online - how verifiable is this for you? As any other publication, we have writers writing reviews, and this could never be objective, but what about interviews? Isn't the newcoming explorer of avant-garde metal interested in finding out what the artists themselves behind such music have to say? Do we mislead him, or do we indicate a false, unverifiable source, by giving him the opportunity to read directly to the source, so to speak? Come on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.179.178.188 ( talk) 05:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Any inclusion on the list needs either the explict use of "avan-garde metal" or "experimental metal" in a reliable source. Many on the list do not an will be removed. If, say, MusicMight lists the genre assay, "Avant-garde, Death Metal", that is not enough, and any attempt to claim otherwise is pure WP:SYNTH. Blackmetalbaz ( talk) 12:24, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Is Animals as Leaders too new to be considered a notable experimental metal band? Although they are new, they showcase many qualities of the genre and I believe they are a quintessential example of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.254.2 ( talk) 16:39, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
This refers to Sleepytime Gorilla Museum as "avant-metal". Now, normally I would go with a specific citation - either "avant-garde metal" or "experimental metal" - but in this case, I think it could qualify as a citation. What else would "avant-metal" refer to other than "avant-garde metal"? -- LordNecronus ( talk) 13:34, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Why is someone systematically removing any reference to Avantgarde-Metal.com, as well as the reference to Oliver Side's article, "What is Avant-Garde Metal?". AudioDreamer ( talk) 04:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
If Wikipedia is not a collection of links, then how come there are 23 links leading up to websites (how reliable is this?) which feature reviews of bands considered by the authors of the reviews (god knows who) as avant-garde metal? Except for the book, all the references cited are not from professional music publication or peer-reviewed paper or book. By the way, there is NO book called Avant-Garde Metal written by Ian Christe and published by Harper Paperbacks, so this is at best a misrepresentation of reality. In fact, Christe published "Sound of the Beast: The Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal", with a section about avant-garde metal. He published it in 2003, and during the last 7 years or so, a lot has happened in the real world of Avant-Garde Metal, while nothing new has happened in his book. Wow, what a reliable source eh. In this context, why avantgarde-metal.com, the only website specifically and explicitly dedicated to the study and diffusion of avant-garde metal, could not be added at least to the links? Furthermore, it is a fact, avantgarde-metal.com does exist, so why could it not appear in the Wikipedia body text on avant-garde metal, not as advertising or promotion (which you seem to believe is my intention in putting the links), but as essential information for any avant-garde metal fan, fin connaisseur or not. Look around on the internet, there is no other website called avant-garde metal or studying the properties of avant-garde metal as such, in and of itself, both musically and conceptually. According to the reality of musical knowledge on avant-garde metal, and the body of work now existing on the subject, which Wikipedia is supposed to represent the most honestly on this page, avantgarde-metal.com should be known for its serious work in the development of media knowledge about this unique and present-day musical movement. What do you think? I think that by preventing me to publish this information on avant-garde metal, you are being an "Anti-Avantgarde-metal.com" Warrior, which is close enough to the Genre Warriors you pretend to be against. AudioDreamer ( talk) 04:19, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
As for the article of Mr. Side, who has recently become chief editor of avantgarde-metal.com (long after our first trials at getting Side's article here, in fact since July 2009), once more I fail to see why it could not at least be linked somewhere on the page. Look around on Wikipedia, many MA and PHD researchers are putting up links to their work, in the case someone else who is also doing research into the same area, might be interested. This is common sense, really. What's wrong with that? I don't understand. So even if I was Side, who I'm not, there wouldn't be anything wrong about this. I mean, is Side's paper unofficial, because it has been professionally edited by our working editors, and seriously written by a professional philosopher of our time, who not only weirdly happens to enjoy avant-garde metal, but who also has worked to give it some sort of philosophical contextualization, something which had never been done before? Again, what's wrong with that? Please discuss it honestly with me, as I want to understand your point. AudioDreamer ( talk) 04:19, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed Tiamat. From my judgement, there is nothing Avant-Garde about them at all; all their songs just sound like regular gothic metal. Their wikipedia article does not list them as Avante-Garde Metal, and the citation listed was a link to a bio about Opeth. If someone can find a better source there is no problem with putting it back on the list, but it doesn't seem to be obvious that Tiamat belongs on the list, and the citation given was completely unrelated. The only place I can find the words "Tiamat" and "avant-garde" in the same place are avant-garde-metal.com and A Deeper Kind of Slumber, which is really more post-metal than avant-garde metal. 24.2.51.248 ( talk) 00:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
One guy says Tiamat is not Avant-Garde Metal from his judgement, while the other guy says yes it is, according to a review found online. What is objective about the first guy's judgement? What is objective about the other guy's review? What is objective about this conversation? Yes indeed, Tiamat have been considered by many to have had an impact on the avantgardization of metal during the nineties. Study your metal, man. It's neither a personal judgement nor a review which will change that. But "considered by many", what is objective about that? One of the problems here is that we have people from very different backgrounds, sometimes with not much of an idea about the history of avant-garde metal music, but with big egos and therefore with ideas even larger than their actual knowledge. I'm not saying Tiamat are Avant-Garde Metal nowadays though, cause they're not. But they've been seen by most printed metal magazines you will find from the nineties, as quite experimental for the time, not that they were the only ones. Now what should we do, feature them or not? Who has an objective answer to that? Here is a 2007 review of their Wildhoney album: http://www.avantgarde-metal.com/content/reviews2.php?id=124 AudioDreamer ( talk) 04:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
→Iwrestledabearonce has avant-garde metal in their page, why are they not listed as one of the bands here in this page? Jw, they'rea notable worthy band, so why can't they be in the list as well?←-- IAmSuchALoser ( talk) 15:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Nvm, i added them myself, they are very avant-garde, check them out if youd like.
I added Benea Reach, only to have the addition reverted. Is it a question of whether they should be classified as avant-garde metal, or whether they are notable? The latter I can understand, but the former I cannot. The review says that "You'll hear everything from doom to metalcore to avant garde to math metal." If this does not qualify it as avant-garde metal, then as far as I can see the given sources for Ulver and Maudlin do not qualify, as the sources do not explicitly call them avant-garde or experimental metal, Triptykon should not be included because it says that the album is beneficial to fans of avant-garde metal, not that it is avant-garde metal. Again, if Benea Reach is an issue of notability, I will concede, but if otherwise, some other bands should be removed as well.-- 3family6 ( talk) 22:32, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
It's been a while since I last checked this article, and I personally feel that the list of avant-garde metal bands has taken a turn for the worst. However, I'll try and ignore most of it, in keeping with Wikipedia's policies regarding citations, and concentrate on one artist that I think I can argue for the removal of: Pentagram.
When I first saw Pentagram listed, I laughed, assuming it was the American doom metal band that has fuck-all to do with anything experimental or avant-garde. Then I remembered that there's more than one metal band called Pentagram, and that I wasn't sure which band was listed -- was it the aforementioned American band, was it the Turkish band that I've never listened to, or was there some other Pentagram that actually plays avant-garde metal that I've never heard of? I clicked on the source and found that the page is unavailable for viewing, meaning there's nothing that reliably backs up Pentagram's inclusion.
So, what I'm asking is: until a reliable source has been found that actually calls them avant-garde metal or experimental metal (that I can also actually read), could Pentagram be removed from the list? -- LordNecronus ( talk) 23:13, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Okay, this is what I have found. The Indian band called Pentagram isn't considered metal, and it is fairly obscure, so we can pretty much rule that band out. Now, the book could be referring to the Turkish metal band, but it is known internationally as Mezarkabul, and the book would almost certainly refer to it by that name. In addition to that, the big name Pentagram recorded a cover for a Syd Barrett tribute album. So, basically, all the evidence points to the American band.-- ¿3fam ily6 contribs 14:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
What the f*** is going on with the list of bands? We could remove 90% of listed bands... Vater-96 ( talk) 22:01, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Over half the bands listed are sourced as "experimental metal." Personally, I think that "experimental metal" is a broader term than "avant-garde metal," but I haven't found a reliable source to confirm this, though there is at least one that claims that the two genres are the same.-- ¿3fam ily6 contribs 01:48, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
"Major pioneers of the genre include Celtic Frost,[6][3] Voivod,[6][3] Sunn O))),[7][3] Fleurety,[3] Ved Buens Ende,[3] and Maudlin of the Well.[8][3] Most of these bands were part of the early black metal or progressive metal genres, or both"
That sentence is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in my whole life, Sunn O))) are not (and weren't) part of any Prog or Black Metal scene, remove that you stupid zipperheads,
PLUS, if I see one more time Brachiosauride being removed from the list, I will do sth you'll definitely regret. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.255.32.21 ( talk) 19:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Reliable sources say Sunn were part of a Black/Prog Metal scene? really?? Are those the same idiots who are saying 30 Second To Mars are a Progressive Metal band?? (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_progressive_metal_artists), Maybe useless sites such as Allmusic sound reliable for a fake Pop/Dance band, but things are completely different in the underground scene, the website Heavy Planet which I referred to Brachiosauride is one of the most important places on the net, sure you don't know who Brant Bjork is... about Sunn I think I should talk to Stephen (O'Malley) about that and it certainly won't be so good for you, I had somehow the same problem with another retard at Last.fm some months ago about Neurosis' wiki, he didn't listen to what I said and he's not doing great now cause Scott Kelly talked to Last.fm's main moderator about that.. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
149.255.32.21 (
talk)
06:53, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I think the main issue with including Brachiosauride in the list, is that is a new band, in other words, it isn't notable enough, they even don't have a wikipedia article, and don't expect'em to be included soon, there are lots of bands that have been touring since 2008-2009 and stills excluded from wikipedia. The list that appears in this article might include only the most representative bands in the avant-garde metal genre. Finally, after given a listen to the band, i'd say that they are much more sludge and progressive metal (like Mastodon) than avant-garde. Nicrorus ( talk) 02:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
If more of the cited references use "experimental metal" rather than "avant-garde metal", shouldn't we change the article name? Blackmetalbaz ( talk) 10:57, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ ( talk) 23:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Avant-garde metal → Experimental metal – Experimental metal is used far more in sources than avant-garde metal. ¿3fam ily6 contribs 22:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to suggested title. ( non-admin closure) Calidum Talk To Me 05:01, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Experimental metal →
Avant-garde metal – this name is used in the cited sources written by Freeborn, Bowar, Christe and Peterik (currently refs numbered 1, 2, 5 and 6). Fricke (#7) uses avant-metal. Buts (#3) is the only one out of these 6 to use "experimental metal" as the leading term, although Bowar includes it as an alternative. Moreover, the name "experimental metal" is ambiguous as mentioned in the 2012 RM above. –
Fayenatic
L
ondon
16:57, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Need sources to state black metal's origin for this genre. I don't disagree, but we need a source. I've tagged it, but removed extreme metal as it's not mentioned in the prose. Remember, not everyone coming to this article will know what this genre is, and we don't want to make it more confusing. Thoughts? Andrzejbanas ( talk) 15:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
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Meshuggah has very little to do with avant-garde metal. They're not experimental nor atmospheric and nearly all songs have a similar structure. The only experimentation in their music was the beginning of the extensive use of polymeters in the early 90s which has since defined their sound. Vrezerino ( talk) 01:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)