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The cite for her middle name is contained in the Privy Council announcement of the Queen's consent to the marriage. Ariadne55 ( talk) 13:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this an encyclopaedia or a tabloid gossip column. There is nothing encyclopaedic about the colour or designer of bridesmaids' dresses, or about going to a family dinner with her then fiancé. Kevin McE ( talk) 11:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Please note the following about date format from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) - "articles in Canadian English may use either format consistently. Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country will therefore normally use the corresponding date format" and later "If an article has evolved using predominantly one format, the whole article should conform to it, unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic." In other words, either date format can be used for a Canadian article, and when an article has developed using one format, it should not be changed without strong reason, the fact Canadian articles can use either therefore means they is no reason to change it.-- UpDown ( talk) 21:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Oohh.... I see. Well, then, can you explain how there's an MOS breach when the MOS says that either date format is acceptable? Your highlighted segment of the MOS that speaks of changing the format relates to breaking with the common format within an article, i.e. using [day] [month] [year] in one instance when the rest of the article uses [month] [day], [year], not that the entire article can't be changed in a consistent manner. -- G2bambino ( talk) 21:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Threatening future reverts does not reflect well on your attitude. But, if you want a 3rd party, off you go and get it. It wasn't my idea. -- G2bambino ( talk) 14:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
As mentioned above, the MOS says "If an article has evolved using predominantly one format, the whole article should conform to it, unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic.". It is my interpretation of the above discussion that UpDown has created and evolved this article, in accordance with the MOS (that says that Canadian articles can use either format. There is no inconsistency here, the format is perfectly valid and I can see no reason for change. The statement "When the majority of articles on Canadian subjects use one form" does not help here. Have you counted them? Although G2bambino keeps asking UpDown for reasons to keep the format, he has not explicitly said why he wants it changed, other than "the majority use one form". The MOS supports both forms, and says change should not happen unless there are strong reasons for doing so. It is not UpDown's responsibility to stand up for the evolved format it is G2bambino's job to convince UpDown (and others) that a change is necessary.
Please G2bambino "explain why the format should not be changed." The fact that UpDown created the article is completely irrelevant here. I can see no reason to change the "status quo" to conform to the "majority" of Canadian articles, when the MOS clearly states that both can be used freely, and that date changes should not be undertaken "unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic". Equal ties to both formats do not do this.–
MDCollins (
talk)
11:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
It took 10 seconds "earliest" in the edit history, to confirm that the article began with dmy format. There is no question that it should stay this way. Could I remind G2bamabino that edit-warring is totally unacceptable in such circumstances. Updown, please contact MOSNUM talk if there's any more trouble. Tony (talk) 11:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't think they'll ever come to a decision on dates - it's too hard to get the Brits and Americans to agree on anything, particularly anything trivial. In Canada, there's no real consistency in how date formats are used - in my experience there are at least four different formats in common use. As it happens, the official Canadian standard date format is the ISO format YYYY-MM-DD, although many people are too stubborn to use it. However, Wikipedia policy is that Canadians can use either the DD MMMM YYYY or MMMM DD, YYYY format, and if an article starts out with one format, there's no reason to change as long as it used consistently in the article. What counts is that the dates are readable and unambiguous, not whether they are preferred by 50% plus one of the population. Trying to change all the dates to a different format just results in edit wars as per the current example.22:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I am also uneasy about some of your other edits, changing it to say Phillips is a member of the Royal Family ("Autumn did not know until six weeks after their meeting that Phillips was a member of the Royal Family") - he's not. The changing to calling her Autumn everywhere, not appriopiate for an encyclopedia, should be Phillips (only HRH/HMs should be referred to by first name), and the un-needed attention brought to what some journalist said in a paper about it (and what a PM incorrectly said). This is not needed on Phillips' page (especially as she converted), but on the Act of Settlement page.-- UpDown ( talk) 21:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the tag isn't ludicrous; we're here, aren't we? The date format is another issue that's being addressed in a separate discussion above, and was a guise that you used to cover a complete undo of my work; this, after all, was summarised as "RV - Date links not longer needed. And should not be in US format."
Now, the use of first names was one of your concerns that I was addressing when you went reverted again. But, you see, that fact highlights what seems to be the main problem here: your opinions on matters appear to be the be-all and end-all, not to be questioned or even worked with, and protected behind a barrage of quotes from WP pages. Yet, things aren't that simple. For instance, the first name thing goes beyond just referring to Autumn as Kelley or Phillips throughout the article; Phillips could also refer to Peter, and Kelley could also refer to Brian. How else to be sure confusion is avoided than to address the subject by her unique first name? -- G2bambino ( talk) 21:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Others have weighed in on how to deal with the article subject's name; hopefully I can summarise these correctly:
If I am to understand this correctly, Autumn should therefore be referred to as Phillips throughout the article. This maintains consistency, avoids confusion about whether Kelly is a first or last name, and maintains an encyclopaedic standard. I'll make the changes, without further issue, I hope. -- G2bambino ( talk) 15:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, for the time being I've maintained the use of Kelly throughout the article; there's really only one point where she's mentioned after the wedding, and it just seems odd to refer to her as Phillips only once, at the end. I suppose this discussion comes down, now, to whether or not it's Kelly or Phillips to be used consistently. I agree with MDCollins, and think it should be Phillips. Are you dead set on Kelly, UpDown? -- G2bambino ( talk) 00:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
1. The lead, at present, is horrendously written. It has been unnecessarily split into two extremely short paragraphs, the start of the second one repeating nearly verbatim the start of the following paragraph in the article. It further has the word "born" repeated no less than three times, twice (albeit in different languages) in the same sentence. Compare the existing:
to what I propose (though it may not be perfect):
2. The way in which Autumn is addressed is inconsistent with the title of the article. I don't particularly think that Kelly is appropriate, given that her name in the article's title is Phillips; but, this should be resolved above.
3. Significant, and cited, information that pertains specifically to the subject of this article is systematically removed by UpDown, even after its amount was pared down to meet her earlier concerns. As the common characteristic of this information is that it pertains to Canada, barring some other explanation, one is left to wonder if there's some sort of bias at play. -- G2bambino ( talk) 22:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, sorry; as you noted, I was busy elsewhere with other issues. I've no problem with the tags being removed now, as it seems we've settled all matters save for the lead. You last asked how I would like it worded. I don't have any singular preference, just something that sums up the article's content in a consise fashion, and I don't believe it's necessary to force a paragraph break where none is needed. I would say something along the lines of:
Thanks, also, for finding some added sources. -- G2bambino ( talk) 00:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
-- UpDown ( talk) 07:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
My mistake--the official name of her daughter was not verified via the official Twitter, but rather via several independent royal sources, such as royalty.nu's Twitter, Netty's Royal Blog, the Royal Forums, etc. These sources state that "blessings were offered at Sandringham for Savannah Phillips, the newborn daughter of Peter and Autumn Phillips." If this is found to be an error, please correct it. Thank you!
Le fantome de l'opera ( talk) 19:48, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
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"Autumn Patricia Phillips (née Kelly, 3 May 1978) was the wife of Peter Phillips, the son of Princess Anne, and the oldest grandchild of Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip."
This sentence suggests Autumn, and not Peter, is the grandchild of Elizabeth and Philip. Grondilu ( talk) 13:05, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Sources from the article refer to the subject as "Autumn Phillips" and "Autumn Kelly". [1] [2] while the full statement itself reads"Mr Peter Phillips and Mrs Autumn Phillips are pleased to be able to report that the financial aspects of their divorce ..." [3] Is this move warranted when there's no evidence of her reverting to her maiden name?-- Bettydaisies ( talk) 02:26, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
References
"Mr Peter Phillips and Mrs Autumn Phillips are pleased to be able to report that the financial aspects of their divorce have been resolved through agreement, the terms of which have been approved and ordered by the High Court today," a spokesperson for the former couple said in a statement obtained by Insider on Tuesday.
We would need to know who got custody of the children. Valetude ( talk) 23:20, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't think she or her brother should be in this category - the family tree is pretty clear, and there are plenty of others like David Armstrong-Jones, 2nd Earl of Snowdon and Lady Sarah Chatto who aren't included on this basis. Maybe this discussion should happen on the Category talk page? Unbh ( talk) 06:05, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
Forgive me if there’s a precedent for this that I’m unaware of but wouldn’t Autumn have got the QE2 Diamond Jubilee medal? Mike, Kate, Tim and Sophie all have it listed on their articles, and Edo & Jack have the Platinum Jubilee medal listed. Shouldn’t Autumn have the Diamond Jubilee one? 2.24.250.51 ( talk) 19:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
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The cite for her middle name is contained in the Privy Council announcement of the Queen's consent to the marriage. Ariadne55 ( talk) 13:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this an encyclopaedia or a tabloid gossip column. There is nothing encyclopaedic about the colour or designer of bridesmaids' dresses, or about going to a family dinner with her then fiancé. Kevin McE ( talk) 11:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Please note the following about date format from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) - "articles in Canadian English may use either format consistently. Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country will therefore normally use the corresponding date format" and later "If an article has evolved using predominantly one format, the whole article should conform to it, unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic." In other words, either date format can be used for a Canadian article, and when an article has developed using one format, it should not be changed without strong reason, the fact Canadian articles can use either therefore means they is no reason to change it.-- UpDown ( talk) 21:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Oohh.... I see. Well, then, can you explain how there's an MOS breach when the MOS says that either date format is acceptable? Your highlighted segment of the MOS that speaks of changing the format relates to breaking with the common format within an article, i.e. using [day] [month] [year] in one instance when the rest of the article uses [month] [day], [year], not that the entire article can't be changed in a consistent manner. -- G2bambino ( talk) 21:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Threatening future reverts does not reflect well on your attitude. But, if you want a 3rd party, off you go and get it. It wasn't my idea. -- G2bambino ( talk) 14:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
As mentioned above, the MOS says "If an article has evolved using predominantly one format, the whole article should conform to it, unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic.". It is my interpretation of the above discussion that UpDown has created and evolved this article, in accordance with the MOS (that says that Canadian articles can use either format. There is no inconsistency here, the format is perfectly valid and I can see no reason for change. The statement "When the majority of articles on Canadian subjects use one form" does not help here. Have you counted them? Although G2bambino keeps asking UpDown for reasons to keep the format, he has not explicitly said why he wants it changed, other than "the majority use one form". The MOS supports both forms, and says change should not happen unless there are strong reasons for doing so. It is not UpDown's responsibility to stand up for the evolved format it is G2bambino's job to convince UpDown (and others) that a change is necessary.
Please G2bambino "explain why the format should not be changed." The fact that UpDown created the article is completely irrelevant here. I can see no reason to change the "status quo" to conform to the "majority" of Canadian articles, when the MOS clearly states that both can be used freely, and that date changes should not be undertaken "unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic". Equal ties to both formats do not do this.–
MDCollins (
talk)
11:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
It took 10 seconds "earliest" in the edit history, to confirm that the article began with dmy format. There is no question that it should stay this way. Could I remind G2bamabino that edit-warring is totally unacceptable in such circumstances. Updown, please contact MOSNUM talk if there's any more trouble. Tony (talk) 11:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't think they'll ever come to a decision on dates - it's too hard to get the Brits and Americans to agree on anything, particularly anything trivial. In Canada, there's no real consistency in how date formats are used - in my experience there are at least four different formats in common use. As it happens, the official Canadian standard date format is the ISO format YYYY-MM-DD, although many people are too stubborn to use it. However, Wikipedia policy is that Canadians can use either the DD MMMM YYYY or MMMM DD, YYYY format, and if an article starts out with one format, there's no reason to change as long as it used consistently in the article. What counts is that the dates are readable and unambiguous, not whether they are preferred by 50% plus one of the population. Trying to change all the dates to a different format just results in edit wars as per the current example.22:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I am also uneasy about some of your other edits, changing it to say Phillips is a member of the Royal Family ("Autumn did not know until six weeks after their meeting that Phillips was a member of the Royal Family") - he's not. The changing to calling her Autumn everywhere, not appriopiate for an encyclopedia, should be Phillips (only HRH/HMs should be referred to by first name), and the un-needed attention brought to what some journalist said in a paper about it (and what a PM incorrectly said). This is not needed on Phillips' page (especially as she converted), but on the Act of Settlement page.-- UpDown ( talk) 21:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the tag isn't ludicrous; we're here, aren't we? The date format is another issue that's being addressed in a separate discussion above, and was a guise that you used to cover a complete undo of my work; this, after all, was summarised as "RV - Date links not longer needed. And should not be in US format."
Now, the use of first names was one of your concerns that I was addressing when you went reverted again. But, you see, that fact highlights what seems to be the main problem here: your opinions on matters appear to be the be-all and end-all, not to be questioned or even worked with, and protected behind a barrage of quotes from WP pages. Yet, things aren't that simple. For instance, the first name thing goes beyond just referring to Autumn as Kelley or Phillips throughout the article; Phillips could also refer to Peter, and Kelley could also refer to Brian. How else to be sure confusion is avoided than to address the subject by her unique first name? -- G2bambino ( talk) 21:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Others have weighed in on how to deal with the article subject's name; hopefully I can summarise these correctly:
If I am to understand this correctly, Autumn should therefore be referred to as Phillips throughout the article. This maintains consistency, avoids confusion about whether Kelly is a first or last name, and maintains an encyclopaedic standard. I'll make the changes, without further issue, I hope. -- G2bambino ( talk) 15:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, for the time being I've maintained the use of Kelly throughout the article; there's really only one point where she's mentioned after the wedding, and it just seems odd to refer to her as Phillips only once, at the end. I suppose this discussion comes down, now, to whether or not it's Kelly or Phillips to be used consistently. I agree with MDCollins, and think it should be Phillips. Are you dead set on Kelly, UpDown? -- G2bambino ( talk) 00:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
1. The lead, at present, is horrendously written. It has been unnecessarily split into two extremely short paragraphs, the start of the second one repeating nearly verbatim the start of the following paragraph in the article. It further has the word "born" repeated no less than three times, twice (albeit in different languages) in the same sentence. Compare the existing:
to what I propose (though it may not be perfect):
2. The way in which Autumn is addressed is inconsistent with the title of the article. I don't particularly think that Kelly is appropriate, given that her name in the article's title is Phillips; but, this should be resolved above.
3. Significant, and cited, information that pertains specifically to the subject of this article is systematically removed by UpDown, even after its amount was pared down to meet her earlier concerns. As the common characteristic of this information is that it pertains to Canada, barring some other explanation, one is left to wonder if there's some sort of bias at play. -- G2bambino ( talk) 22:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, sorry; as you noted, I was busy elsewhere with other issues. I've no problem with the tags being removed now, as it seems we've settled all matters save for the lead. You last asked how I would like it worded. I don't have any singular preference, just something that sums up the article's content in a consise fashion, and I don't believe it's necessary to force a paragraph break where none is needed. I would say something along the lines of:
Thanks, also, for finding some added sources. -- G2bambino ( talk) 00:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
-- UpDown ( talk) 07:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
My mistake--the official name of her daughter was not verified via the official Twitter, but rather via several independent royal sources, such as royalty.nu's Twitter, Netty's Royal Blog, the Royal Forums, etc. These sources state that "blessings were offered at Sandringham for Savannah Phillips, the newborn daughter of Peter and Autumn Phillips." If this is found to be an error, please correct it. Thank you!
Le fantome de l'opera ( talk) 19:48, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
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"Autumn Patricia Phillips (née Kelly, 3 May 1978) was the wife of Peter Phillips, the son of Princess Anne, and the oldest grandchild of Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip."
This sentence suggests Autumn, and not Peter, is the grandchild of Elizabeth and Philip. Grondilu ( talk) 13:05, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Sources from the article refer to the subject as "Autumn Phillips" and "Autumn Kelly". [1] [2] while the full statement itself reads"Mr Peter Phillips and Mrs Autumn Phillips are pleased to be able to report that the financial aspects of their divorce ..." [3] Is this move warranted when there's no evidence of her reverting to her maiden name?-- Bettydaisies ( talk) 02:26, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
References
"Mr Peter Phillips and Mrs Autumn Phillips are pleased to be able to report that the financial aspects of their divorce have been resolved through agreement, the terms of which have been approved and ordered by the High Court today," a spokesperson for the former couple said in a statement obtained by Insider on Tuesday.
We would need to know who got custody of the children. Valetude ( talk) 23:20, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't think she or her brother should be in this category - the family tree is pretty clear, and there are plenty of others like David Armstrong-Jones, 2nd Earl of Snowdon and Lady Sarah Chatto who aren't included on this basis. Maybe this discussion should happen on the Category talk page? Unbh ( talk) 06:05, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
Forgive me if there’s a precedent for this that I’m unaware of but wouldn’t Autumn have got the QE2 Diamond Jubilee medal? Mike, Kate, Tim and Sophie all have it listed on their articles, and Edo & Jack have the Platinum Jubilee medal listed. Shouldn’t Autumn have the Diamond Jubilee one? 2.24.250.51 ( talk) 19:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)