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I worked for Brunswick from 1972 through 1978 as an Electrical Engineer developing the Automatic Scorer. I removed the citation request and the reference tag since I am very familiar with the subject and would be considered "the expert." I still have electronic schematics that are dated 1973 and 1974 which I would be glad to furnish by e-mail to anyone that requests them. I was in direct contact with the top executives in Brunswick during this time. I helped install the first Automatic Scorers ever installed throughout the United States. Since I was in the development stages of the Automatic Scorer I am very familiar with the dates. If you need further on this I believe I can furnish, if I knew exactly the request.-- Doug talk 18:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I did add two additional references. Do you still need additional references? What specifically do you need a reference for? If I knew what you were doubting, then perhaps I can zoom in on this and get a reference for it?-- Doug talk 19:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Doug, you added another link to a patent. This is not the kind of source the article needs, as I already said above. --Akhilleus ( talk) 20:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
There are several methods used in detecting pinfall. A mid-80s Brunswick design used an oscillating laser as part of the detection system. There are also ultrasonic systems. Most systems today use a CCD camera and some software to detect pinfall. An 80s AMF design had targets you placed at the 7-pin spot on the left lane and the 10-pin spot of the right lane, while the deck was otherwise clear, and then you would adjust the camera's aim with some screws based on some LEDs on the side. Another required and oscilloscope to adjust. Many newer systems can be adjusted by changing some settings in software. I, unfortunately, have no sources other than personal experience with bowling equipment. -- Coderjoe ( talk) 18:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Wasted Time R ( talk · contribs) 00:01, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
A worthwhile article on initial development but needs work after that
Re prose and MoS issues:
The lede should have a link to Ten-pin bowling#Traditional scoring so that readers are clear on what is being talked about. As for The three manufactures of these specialized computers are Brunswick, AMF and RCA., I think this should spell out and link Brunswick Bowling and AMF Bowling. And is this RCA the famous RCA or some other company?
There are several places where contractions are used in article text and need to be expanded out:
most don't understand and don't know the and
didn't trust.
There is one place where there is a space between a period and a footnote:
on October 10, 1967. [22]
It was first used in national official league gaming on October 10, 1967. It is unclear what this refers to - to the PBA Tour back then? (Seems unlikely, as they would have had official scorers.) To local local evening leagues? To something else? A link would help.
I think the three short one-paragraph sections "Benefits", "Skepticism" and "21st Century" might best be combined into one section, with a title of "Reception" or something like that. If not, "21st century" should be in lower case.
Regarding content:
The article has several instances of language that suggest that bowling scoring is a really complex task: as most don't understand the mathematical formula involved in bowler scoring and The Automatic Scorer digital computer was mathematically accurate and Score-keeping for bowling is a complex formula and most people that bowl don't know the mathematical process involved in scoring correctly. But it's not that complicated a formula! You get the pins you knock down, if you get a spare you add in to that frame the next ball, if you get a strike you add in to that frame the next two balls. (If you roll a gutter ball you get mockery.) Back in the day my friends and I used to go to the bowling alley when we were 11 and 12 years old and we had no trouble in scoring it ourselves. Yes, we were all good at math, but still.
In fact, the Score-keeping for bowling is a complex formula and most people that bowl don't know the mathematical process involved in scoring correctly. text misrepresents the source given a bit. What in 21 says is that it's surprising that casual bowlers think it's too hard to learn the scoring, because in reality it is "not-so-difficult" and can be done on your fingers and toes. Now there are scoring systems that can be hard to understand in sports – think of figure skating scoring, or the performance tables in decathalon, or the Fedex Cup in golf (especially before the final event was changed a couple of years ago) – but bowling really isn't one of them.
The two New York Times stories I mention below give a slightly different take on this, saying that people like using modern technology in many cases while some old-timers are resistant. There's also the point that the scoring systems can save time for league secretaries in terms of tracking and adding all scores, keeping averages, etc.
It had the side benefit of speeding up the progress of the game This is not covered by the source given. The scoring was often done a person whose turn wasn't up, so it ran concurrently with the action. So where exactly does the speed-up happen?
This increased the popularity of the sport ... This is a major claim in the article, but the source given is from 1967 contains only speculation that it would increase the popularity. If it really did increase the popularity, a cite from some later period would be necessary. See the 1988 New York Times piece below for one possible source for this, although with a small sample size.
Going into the twenty-first century automatic scorers are found in most bowling centers worldwide. This needs a source (I don't see it covered by the Famous First Facts page that cites the following sentence). Is there a percentage of bowling centers that have them that can be given? Does it vary by country? Did having automatic scorers eventually just become expected of lanes, such that if you didn't have one you would not be competitive?
What features have automatic scorers added since they were first developed? Anything that adds pizzazz to the bowler experience? The "21st century" section mentions two technological developments for detecting pins, but the sources are patents, which as a primary source are not ideal.
There are definitely sources you can use here. By the time of this 1988 New York Times story, 6 of 58 bowling alleys in Connecticut had converted to automatic scoring. Two of them say it resulted in a 20 percent increase in business. Then by this 1999 New York Times story, it says automatic scorers had become the norm by that time. Both of these pieces cover the technicological developments in scorers to that point and the costs, which seem to be going higher not lower. What about today, have costs gone down? Then a current story, such as this 2018 one from The Republic (Columbus, Indiana), can give an idea of what scoring systems are like today, with avatars, social media connections, HD graphics, etc. These are just three newspaper articles I spotted in a little looking, I am sure there are a number of others.
Regarding images:
The inside-the-console one looks okay and having your circuit diagram from back then is definitely cool. But as for the top image,
File:Automatic Scorer 1971.jpg, is that really a photograph of yours? It has the look of the kind of commercial photograph, processed to have no background, that often appeared in magazines or advertising brochures back then.
Moreover, none of the current images show the automatic scorer in the context of an actual bowling alley, which is unfortunate as it means readers will not get much context. I see some other images that would do this, such as File:Automatic Scorer1.jpg and File:Ato 2005-11-18-score1.jpg (there are likely others, I didn't look through the whole bowling category tree on Commons). I think at least one of these should be added to the article.
Regarding sources:
As indicated above, the article makes excellent use of old newspaper stories from the 1960s and 1970s, for the development and initial introduction of the automatic scorer, but there are very few sources from later. Such later ones definitely need to be found and added.
Regarding footnotes:
If there is going to be just one book source that is referenced only once, I think it's cleaner to just fold that citation into that footnote and eliminate the separate book source section. But if other books are going to be added, it could stay.
Since you do it everywhere else, fn 1 and 12 need the url into Newspapers.com for those stories. Even if you haven't exported them into clips, the story url is still valuable for people who do have Newspapers.com access. Also, fn 23 and 24 need date and publisher information including some clarification that they are patents.
I think the article should be added to Category:Automation. It could arguably be added to Category:20th-century inventions and Category:American inventions.
In sum, I am putting this GAN on hold. Wasted Time R ( talk) 00:01, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Follow-up comments:
An automatic scorer is the computerized scoring system in bowling. - The thing being linked to is now good, but he text over the link won't communicate to the reader what the link is there for. This should be reworked to something like:
At first it was skeptical if a computer - It is not clear what "it" refers to here, and people are skeptical, not objects.
AMF Bowling, competitor to Brunswick, entered into the automatic scorer computer field in 1973 and were being installed into their brand of bowling centers. - this sentence does not seem grammatical to me - maybe replace 'and were being installed' with 'and their systems were installed'.
Score-keeping for bowling is based on a complex formula - Regarding your response above on this issue, for the record it did not take me hundreds of times going bowling to be able to do the scoring, it took me about two times. And that's the same for my classmates that I went with. Equating it with making great art or understanding circuit diagrams or even creating DYKs seems kind of absurd to me. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter whether you think bowling scoring is as hard as electrical engineering or I think it's as easy as sixth-grade arithmetic. It only matters what
WP:RSes think. Is there a source that says bowling scoring is a complex mathematical formula? The two cites that you are currently using don't use those terms or terms like them. Instead, they say that some new or infrequent bowlers seem to be put off by having to learn the scoring, which I will grant, and that some league bowlers are relieved by not having to burden to do all the scoring in addition to trying to bowl their best, which I will also grant. So I suggest that the best way forward here is to not have this article say anything in Wikipedia's voice about the complexity or simplicity of bowling scoring, and instead just describe the reasons why most people like the automatic scorer and a few people do not. Once we have the link text "scoring in ten-pin bowling" at the start of the lede, it will be easy enough for readers to click it and judge for themselves how complicated or not the scoring is.
An additional argument about automatic scorers that you can add to the Reception section is bowlers who have never done scoring themselves are clueless about how the scoring works. As this site says, "Most bowling alleys are equipped with machines that take care of the scoring for you, but you should still know how the bowling scoring system works. Otherwise, the scores the machine gives you will seem arbitrary and confusing." A similar sentiment is expressed on this site.
in our high-tech society - this use of first-person plural is against the MoS, see WP:PRONOUNS.
Many centers show that business has increased since their introduction. - This sentence is not quite right, maybe replace 'show' with 'state' or start with 'The financial results of many centers show'.
The increase success rate of bowling perfect games is attributed to the introduction of the Automatic Scorer technology.[1] - The source you give does not say this. It says that the increased success rate is due to changes in technology overall, not the automatic scorer in particular.
Yes, there definitely has been an increase in the frequency of perfect games, but it is due to changes in bowling ball technology and bowling center lane oiling practices. See this New York Times article from 2000 for a good discussion of this. This 1996 article from the Chicago Tribune also talks about it, as does this Advance Media piece from 2011. Not one of these articles mentions the automatic scorer as a reason for more perfect games.
And by what mechanism would the automatic scorer cause an increase perfect games? Were people rolling perfect games before, but they got confused in keeping score and didn't realize they had 12 strikes in a row? That seems unlikely.
Regarding images, the new ones are good, but they are both from the 2000s whereas the two later ones are from the 1970s. Are the internals of the scorer still the same? If not, the image captions should state the decades that they are from.
The article is still too weak on post-1970s developments in terms of what bowlers see. You have one sentence on color monitors in the 1980s and then one sentence on avatars and social media today. There needs to be more. Otherwise the article is not weighted appropriately.
fn 26 is missing author and date information.
fn 31 is missing date information.
Finally, it's a minor thing, but regarding the suggestion that it's cleaner to just fold the sole book citation into that footnote and eliminate the separate book source section, you marked it as done but it was not done. Wasted Time R ( talk) 00:36, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure how difficult it would be to find sources on this subject, but it is something I am personally quite curious about and I would've loved it if this article had answers for it. Automatic scoring screens often feature ridiculous/absurd animations. I found at least one recent source that confirms that much: [1] (also [2] if it's an RS?). I am very curious where this pattern originated, who creates these animations, and why they are always like that. Is there a chance this article could cover that? ~ Maplestrip/Mable ( chat) 15:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
This article is part of Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20210315 and the Good article (GA) drive to reassess and potentially delist over 200 GAs that might contain copyright and other problems. An AN discussion closed with consensus to delist this group of articles en masse, unless a reviewer opens an independent review and can vouch for/verify content of all sources. Please review Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/February 2023 for further information about the GA status of this article, the timeline and process for delisting, and suggestions for improvements. Questions or comments can be made at the project talk page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 09:36, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Wasted Time R, one of the frequent issues found in DC's work is that he took text from one source, but cited it to another. Are you able to verify this text:
to this source? I've frequently found that content shows up in another source, sometimes copy-paste. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:46, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As part of WP:DCGAR and as the original GA reviewer in 2020, I am placing this article nominated by Doug Coldwell up for GAR in order to keep its status as a GA. During the original review I was involved questioning some of DC's claims, finding new sources, and shaping the focus of the article. Now prior to this DCGAR process, I have gone through the article again. Regarding copyvio issues, there was nothing egregious but there were a few borderline too-close paraphrasings, which I have now reworded. Regarding text-source correspondence, again there was nothing really bad but I have fixed it up in a couple of places. In sum, I believe the article corresponds to the GA criteria and its status should be kept. Wasted Time R ( talk) 11:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
Summary, having looked now at scores of DC articles, it will be hard to convince me that any article that is still 80% DC content can be GA-worthy. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Automatic scorer has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||
|
I worked for Brunswick from 1972 through 1978 as an Electrical Engineer developing the Automatic Scorer. I removed the citation request and the reference tag since I am very familiar with the subject and would be considered "the expert." I still have electronic schematics that are dated 1973 and 1974 which I would be glad to furnish by e-mail to anyone that requests them. I was in direct contact with the top executives in Brunswick during this time. I helped install the first Automatic Scorers ever installed throughout the United States. Since I was in the development stages of the Automatic Scorer I am very familiar with the dates. If you need further on this I believe I can furnish, if I knew exactly the request.-- Doug talk 18:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I did add two additional references. Do you still need additional references? What specifically do you need a reference for? If I knew what you were doubting, then perhaps I can zoom in on this and get a reference for it?-- Doug talk 19:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Doug, you added another link to a patent. This is not the kind of source the article needs, as I already said above. --Akhilleus ( talk) 20:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
There are several methods used in detecting pinfall. A mid-80s Brunswick design used an oscillating laser as part of the detection system. There are also ultrasonic systems. Most systems today use a CCD camera and some software to detect pinfall. An 80s AMF design had targets you placed at the 7-pin spot on the left lane and the 10-pin spot of the right lane, while the deck was otherwise clear, and then you would adjust the camera's aim with some screws based on some LEDs on the side. Another required and oscilloscope to adjust. Many newer systems can be adjusted by changing some settings in software. I, unfortunately, have no sources other than personal experience with bowling equipment. -- Coderjoe ( talk) 18:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Wasted Time R ( talk · contribs) 00:01, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
A worthwhile article on initial development but needs work after that
Re prose and MoS issues:
The lede should have a link to Ten-pin bowling#Traditional scoring so that readers are clear on what is being talked about. As for The three manufactures of these specialized computers are Brunswick, AMF and RCA., I think this should spell out and link Brunswick Bowling and AMF Bowling. And is this RCA the famous RCA or some other company?
There are several places where contractions are used in article text and need to be expanded out:
most don't understand and don't know the and
didn't trust.
There is one place where there is a space between a period and a footnote:
on October 10, 1967. [22]
It was first used in national official league gaming on October 10, 1967. It is unclear what this refers to - to the PBA Tour back then? (Seems unlikely, as they would have had official scorers.) To local local evening leagues? To something else? A link would help.
I think the three short one-paragraph sections "Benefits", "Skepticism" and "21st Century" might best be combined into one section, with a title of "Reception" or something like that. If not, "21st century" should be in lower case.
Regarding content:
The article has several instances of language that suggest that bowling scoring is a really complex task: as most don't understand the mathematical formula involved in bowler scoring and The Automatic Scorer digital computer was mathematically accurate and Score-keeping for bowling is a complex formula and most people that bowl don't know the mathematical process involved in scoring correctly. But it's not that complicated a formula! You get the pins you knock down, if you get a spare you add in to that frame the next ball, if you get a strike you add in to that frame the next two balls. (If you roll a gutter ball you get mockery.) Back in the day my friends and I used to go to the bowling alley when we were 11 and 12 years old and we had no trouble in scoring it ourselves. Yes, we were all good at math, but still.
In fact, the Score-keeping for bowling is a complex formula and most people that bowl don't know the mathematical process involved in scoring correctly. text misrepresents the source given a bit. What in 21 says is that it's surprising that casual bowlers think it's too hard to learn the scoring, because in reality it is "not-so-difficult" and can be done on your fingers and toes. Now there are scoring systems that can be hard to understand in sports – think of figure skating scoring, or the performance tables in decathalon, or the Fedex Cup in golf (especially before the final event was changed a couple of years ago) – but bowling really isn't one of them.
The two New York Times stories I mention below give a slightly different take on this, saying that people like using modern technology in many cases while some old-timers are resistant. There's also the point that the scoring systems can save time for league secretaries in terms of tracking and adding all scores, keeping averages, etc.
It had the side benefit of speeding up the progress of the game This is not covered by the source given. The scoring was often done a person whose turn wasn't up, so it ran concurrently with the action. So where exactly does the speed-up happen?
This increased the popularity of the sport ... This is a major claim in the article, but the source given is from 1967 contains only speculation that it would increase the popularity. If it really did increase the popularity, a cite from some later period would be necessary. See the 1988 New York Times piece below for one possible source for this, although with a small sample size.
Going into the twenty-first century automatic scorers are found in most bowling centers worldwide. This needs a source (I don't see it covered by the Famous First Facts page that cites the following sentence). Is there a percentage of bowling centers that have them that can be given? Does it vary by country? Did having automatic scorers eventually just become expected of lanes, such that if you didn't have one you would not be competitive?
What features have automatic scorers added since they were first developed? Anything that adds pizzazz to the bowler experience? The "21st century" section mentions two technological developments for detecting pins, but the sources are patents, which as a primary source are not ideal.
There are definitely sources you can use here. By the time of this 1988 New York Times story, 6 of 58 bowling alleys in Connecticut had converted to automatic scoring. Two of them say it resulted in a 20 percent increase in business. Then by this 1999 New York Times story, it says automatic scorers had become the norm by that time. Both of these pieces cover the technicological developments in scorers to that point and the costs, which seem to be going higher not lower. What about today, have costs gone down? Then a current story, such as this 2018 one from The Republic (Columbus, Indiana), can give an idea of what scoring systems are like today, with avatars, social media connections, HD graphics, etc. These are just three newspaper articles I spotted in a little looking, I am sure there are a number of others.
Regarding images:
The inside-the-console one looks okay and having your circuit diagram from back then is definitely cool. But as for the top image,
File:Automatic Scorer 1971.jpg, is that really a photograph of yours? It has the look of the kind of commercial photograph, processed to have no background, that often appeared in magazines or advertising brochures back then.
Moreover, none of the current images show the automatic scorer in the context of an actual bowling alley, which is unfortunate as it means readers will not get much context. I see some other images that would do this, such as File:Automatic Scorer1.jpg and File:Ato 2005-11-18-score1.jpg (there are likely others, I didn't look through the whole bowling category tree on Commons). I think at least one of these should be added to the article.
Regarding sources:
As indicated above, the article makes excellent use of old newspaper stories from the 1960s and 1970s, for the development and initial introduction of the automatic scorer, but there are very few sources from later. Such later ones definitely need to be found and added.
Regarding footnotes:
If there is going to be just one book source that is referenced only once, I think it's cleaner to just fold that citation into that footnote and eliminate the separate book source section. But if other books are going to be added, it could stay.
Since you do it everywhere else, fn 1 and 12 need the url into Newspapers.com for those stories. Even if you haven't exported them into clips, the story url is still valuable for people who do have Newspapers.com access. Also, fn 23 and 24 need date and publisher information including some clarification that they are patents.
I think the article should be added to Category:Automation. It could arguably be added to Category:20th-century inventions and Category:American inventions.
In sum, I am putting this GAN on hold. Wasted Time R ( talk) 00:01, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Follow-up comments:
An automatic scorer is the computerized scoring system in bowling. - The thing being linked to is now good, but he text over the link won't communicate to the reader what the link is there for. This should be reworked to something like:
At first it was skeptical if a computer - It is not clear what "it" refers to here, and people are skeptical, not objects.
AMF Bowling, competitor to Brunswick, entered into the automatic scorer computer field in 1973 and were being installed into their brand of bowling centers. - this sentence does not seem grammatical to me - maybe replace 'and were being installed' with 'and their systems were installed'.
Score-keeping for bowling is based on a complex formula - Regarding your response above on this issue, for the record it did not take me hundreds of times going bowling to be able to do the scoring, it took me about two times. And that's the same for my classmates that I went with. Equating it with making great art or understanding circuit diagrams or even creating DYKs seems kind of absurd to me. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter whether you think bowling scoring is as hard as electrical engineering or I think it's as easy as sixth-grade arithmetic. It only matters what
WP:RSes think. Is there a source that says bowling scoring is a complex mathematical formula? The two cites that you are currently using don't use those terms or terms like them. Instead, they say that some new or infrequent bowlers seem to be put off by having to learn the scoring, which I will grant, and that some league bowlers are relieved by not having to burden to do all the scoring in addition to trying to bowl their best, which I will also grant. So I suggest that the best way forward here is to not have this article say anything in Wikipedia's voice about the complexity or simplicity of bowling scoring, and instead just describe the reasons why most people like the automatic scorer and a few people do not. Once we have the link text "scoring in ten-pin bowling" at the start of the lede, it will be easy enough for readers to click it and judge for themselves how complicated or not the scoring is.
An additional argument about automatic scorers that you can add to the Reception section is bowlers who have never done scoring themselves are clueless about how the scoring works. As this site says, "Most bowling alleys are equipped with machines that take care of the scoring for you, but you should still know how the bowling scoring system works. Otherwise, the scores the machine gives you will seem arbitrary and confusing." A similar sentiment is expressed on this site.
in our high-tech society - this use of first-person plural is against the MoS, see WP:PRONOUNS.
Many centers show that business has increased since their introduction. - This sentence is not quite right, maybe replace 'show' with 'state' or start with 'The financial results of many centers show'.
The increase success rate of bowling perfect games is attributed to the introduction of the Automatic Scorer technology.[1] - The source you give does not say this. It says that the increased success rate is due to changes in technology overall, not the automatic scorer in particular.
Yes, there definitely has been an increase in the frequency of perfect games, but it is due to changes in bowling ball technology and bowling center lane oiling practices. See this New York Times article from 2000 for a good discussion of this. This 1996 article from the Chicago Tribune also talks about it, as does this Advance Media piece from 2011. Not one of these articles mentions the automatic scorer as a reason for more perfect games.
And by what mechanism would the automatic scorer cause an increase perfect games? Were people rolling perfect games before, but they got confused in keeping score and didn't realize they had 12 strikes in a row? That seems unlikely.
Regarding images, the new ones are good, but they are both from the 2000s whereas the two later ones are from the 1970s. Are the internals of the scorer still the same? If not, the image captions should state the decades that they are from.
The article is still too weak on post-1970s developments in terms of what bowlers see. You have one sentence on color monitors in the 1980s and then one sentence on avatars and social media today. There needs to be more. Otherwise the article is not weighted appropriately.
fn 26 is missing author and date information.
fn 31 is missing date information.
Finally, it's a minor thing, but regarding the suggestion that it's cleaner to just fold the sole book citation into that footnote and eliminate the separate book source section, you marked it as done but it was not done. Wasted Time R ( talk) 00:36, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure how difficult it would be to find sources on this subject, but it is something I am personally quite curious about and I would've loved it if this article had answers for it. Automatic scoring screens often feature ridiculous/absurd animations. I found at least one recent source that confirms that much: [1] (also [2] if it's an RS?). I am very curious where this pattern originated, who creates these animations, and why they are always like that. Is there a chance this article could cover that? ~ Maplestrip/Mable ( chat) 15:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
This article is part of Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20210315 and the Good article (GA) drive to reassess and potentially delist over 200 GAs that might contain copyright and other problems. An AN discussion closed with consensus to delist this group of articles en masse, unless a reviewer opens an independent review and can vouch for/verify content of all sources. Please review Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/February 2023 for further information about the GA status of this article, the timeline and process for delisting, and suggestions for improvements. Questions or comments can be made at the project talk page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 09:36, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Wasted Time R, one of the frequent issues found in DC's work is that he took text from one source, but cited it to another. Are you able to verify this text:
to this source? I've frequently found that content shows up in another source, sometimes copy-paste. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:46, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As part of WP:DCGAR and as the original GA reviewer in 2020, I am placing this article nominated by Doug Coldwell up for GAR in order to keep its status as a GA. During the original review I was involved questioning some of DC's claims, finding new sources, and shaping the focus of the article. Now prior to this DCGAR process, I have gone through the article again. Regarding copyvio issues, there was nothing egregious but there were a few borderline too-close paraphrasings, which I have now reworded. Regarding text-source correspondence, again there was nothing really bad but I have fixed it up in a couple of places. In sum, I believe the article corresponds to the GA criteria and its status should be kept. Wasted Time R ( talk) 11:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
Summary, having looked now at scores of DC articles, it will be hard to convince me that any article that is still 80% DC content can be GA-worthy. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)