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This article is currently categorised under "Obsolete scientific theories" and "Pseudophysics". Since these are mutually exclusive, which is it? Bob A 04:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
intended to work out so that the daughter's magnetic rigidity is the same in AD and SR. This is explained clearly on the muon and pion pages, including the equation, and not mentioned in the rest of the AD literature---i.e., Carezani has never acknowledged the fact that there are many ways to measure charge, not just magnetic spectrometers. He treats "charge" like a meaningless fudge factor, rather than as a measureable physical quantity. There are many ways to measure charge, and exactly zero observations of non-integer (multiple of e) charges in the literature. Anyway, I gave a series of examples of charged particles which decay into other charged particles. Does AD predict
that the parent and daughter particles have different charges? Different forever, or different until they slow down? If so, please give some numerical predictions, and I'll be happy to cite non-magnetic experiments which are sensitive to the charges of beta-decay daughters, both before and after the daughters slow down or interact again. Does AD predict that the parent and daughter have the same charges? If so, a) your web page is wrong and b) your theory disagrees with magnetic-spectrometer/TOF experiments. -bm 18.4.2.3 18:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a good start, but from memory (a few years ago I informed myself about this subject) I can see that it's poorly sourced and as a result, also poorly balanced.
In particular, the SAA is in fact an amateur group of people (mostly non-scientists) lead by a photographer who sympathises with Carezani. They hardly understand the stuff that they put on internet. Thus the SAA is a very poor source of scientific information, what must be relied upon (the article isn't about the SAA!) are publications about Autodynamics in science journals, or in sofar lacking, at least articles by Carezani himself.
Moreover, a reported failure is mentioned but the pertinent admission of Carezani that his corrected theory makes the same predictions as SR is not mentioned, nor the fact that his approach can be applied to non-decay processes as well. Claimed successes of the alternative "decay" approach (see Carezani) are not mentioned at all. In particular no mention is made of the alleged improved Compton equation that was published in a peer reviewed journal together with experimental data, if I remember well.
In short, a lot needs to be improved before this article is up to quality standards. For now, I would lable both Autodynamics as well as this article Junk science.
Harald88 22:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
67.214.66.118 ( talk) 15:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)jc-at-ccad/23May2010....................... I first looked into AD given the results of SNO and Kamiokande labs in 2001 were not convincing to me. The equations of AD are in obvious need of improvement and the reader is invited to contribute in this respect. I wholely agree with R. Carezani's conclusions on SNO and Kamiokande data. It was my own suspicions of fraudulent data and conclusions from these labs that led me to seek alternative views in the internet and elsewhere. I will include my own observations at a more appropriate time. For now I think it is appropriate to quote from Gravitation and Cosmology by Steven Weinberg, 1972,
the Preface: " ...I believe the geometrical approach has driven a wedge between general relativity and the theory of elementary particles... the passage of time has taught us NOT TO EXPECT that the strong, weak, and electromagnetic interactions can be understood in geometrical terms, and too great an emphasis on geometry can only obscure the deep connections between gravitation and the rest of physics." p.147: "...At one time it was even hoped that the rest of physics could be brought into a geometric formulation, but this hope has met with disappointment, and the geometric interpretation of the theory of gravitation has dwindled to a mere analogy, which lingers in our language in terms like 'metric, 'affine connection', and 'curvature', but it is not otherwise very useful." p.201: "...if Dicke and Goldenberg are right, then the 1% agreement between Einstein's prediction and the observed anomalous precession is a mere coincidence." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.95.11.190 ( talk) 00:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
67.214.66.118 (
talk)
15:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)jc-at-ccad/21March2011...........................
In the Super-Kamiokande article in Wikipedia the History paragraph includes the statement "Despite successes in neutrino astronomy...Kamiokande DID NOT achieve its primary goal, detection of proton decay. Higher sensitivity was also necessary to obtain high statistical CONFIDENCE in its results. This led to the construction of Super-Kamiokande...(which) announced the first evidence of neutrino oscillations in 1998."
In the Large Hadron Collider article in Wikipedia we find the LHC was fired up 10 Sept. 2008 and 9 days later was halted due to "a serious fault." It will run at half power untill 2014. It will then hopefully provide data to demonstrate or rule out how the Higgs Mechanism gives mass to neutrinos, etc. But notice---there's no such evidence untill 2014. Untill then all claims about the neutrino are questionable including those from Kamiokande.
It used to be that lepton number conservation required neutrinos to be massless.
A)............Lepton number and muon number conservation require a massless neutrino: Subatomic Physics/H. Frauenfelder, E. M. Henley/1974/p.165: "The results from neutrino reactions...are corroborated by other experiments, and the fact has to be faced that neutrino and anti-neutrino are different...Such a situation is compatible with lepton number conservation only if the neutrinos HAVE NO MASS...For massive particles, a Lorentz transformation...that reverses the direction of the momentum...leaves the sense of rotation unchanged, and a right-handed particle changes into a left-handed one. A massive anti-neutrino would change into a neutrino, and lepton number would not be conserved."
L= lepton number/// L=(+1) for e(-), muon(-), e-neutrino, muon-neutrino/// L=(-1) for e(+), muon(+), e-anti-neutrino, muon-anti-neutrino/// L=0 for all other particles.
B)...........Co-60 beta decay into Ni-60 requires massless neutrinos: Radiations magazine/Am. Inst. of Physics/ D. E. Neuenschwander/Fall 2002/Radioactivity, Symmetry, and Parity/p. 20:
Co-60---------------------------- Ni-60...........+........e(-).........+..........e-anti-neutrino.
L=(0)............................ L=(0)....................L=(+1)...................L=(-1).
Lepton number is conserved and lepton number conservation requires massless neutrinos.
C)...........Helicity suppressed decays require massless neutrinos: Modern Elenentary Particle Physics/Gordon Kane/1993/Appendix E/p. 334: "...the decay can only occur if there is a spin flip. That is omly possible for particles with mass, which means that the decay amplitude has an extra factor of the mass of the particle in question. An example is..."
pion(-)-------------------------- muon(-)..........+.......muon-anti-neutrino.
L=(0)............................ L=(+1)...................L=(-1).
"...The pion(-), however, has spin zero, so the final helicities must point in opposite directions. The rate has an extra factor of muon-mass-squared or electron-mass-squared, which is why the (muon) channel dominates." See also Pion in Wikipedia. Notice that despite the helicity suppression obstacle lepton number is conserved and lepton number conservation requires massless neutrinos.
A, B, and C above require massless neutrinos but Kamiokande reports massive neutrinos. Somethig's got to give. How many rule violations do we allow the neutrino before we question its theory?
Enter Autodynamics.org where among other things we find R. Carezani's analysis of the Kamiokande data which leaves no doubt of the abscence of evidence for a nautrino in this data. Carezani correctly points to the origin of the neutrino in relativity's failure in describing Beta Decay. This brings both the neutrino and relativity into question. In Gravitation and Cosmology/1972/Preface p. vii Nobel prize winner S. Weinberg also questions relativity---"However I believe that the geometric approach has driven a wedge between general relativity and the theory of elementary particles...As long as it could be hoped...that matter would...be understood in geometrical terms, it made sense to give Riemannian geometry a primary role in describing the theory of gravitation. But now the passage of time has taught us not to expect that the strong, weak, and electromagnetic interactions can be understood in geometrical terms..." And right in line with Weinberg's statement Carezani attempts to replace the foundational object of relativity, the Lorentz transformation. Bring all offers.
I can point to two cases where arguments about the neutrino have been successfully refuted. One is Carezani's analysis of the Kamiokande data. The other is M. H. L. Pryce's arguments to demonstrate the impossibility of the Neutrino Theory of Light (Wikipedia). Both are piecemeal approaches but the arguments by Pryce give a model for a future general argument against the neutrino. Again, bring all offers. .............jc-at-ccad/3-21-11.
155.150.223.150 ( talk) 05:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)jc-atccad/22march2011........I mean bring all offers of clarification not just nay saying...I provided 3 main examples to support my argument...plus several other including Weinberg's comments on relativity...If someone can refute Pryce's arguments I'd love to see it. ...........jc-at-ccad/3-22-11.
In the article, we find the statement "The effect of the revised equations proposed in autodynamics". What equations? There are none listed. In fact, there is nothing in the article except discussion of discussions of autodynamics; as opposed to anything pertaining to the topic, itself. Since an article is supposed to explain what its topic actually is, then this needs to either be revised to do so, or else be eliminated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6000:AA4D:C5B8:0:3361:EAF8:97B7 ( talk) 12:54, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Mr. De Hilster, your recent edit was difficult to understand. I have undone it for now---perhaps you can explain here what you meant, and we'll try to come up with better wording.
In my latest edit, I changed the existing inline refs to use the ref tags. Many of the "footnotes" previously listed are not in the article any more, and using the tags should make maintenance and future changes easier. I tried not to change any wording in this edit. Here is what the footnote section was before my change. Note in particular that items 14 and 15 may be worthy of consideration for inclusion.
Caveat lector! These links are almost all to de Hilster's website. They are given here so that interested readers can verify the facts stated in the body of the article.
-- Tim Shuba 02:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I find it incredible that after over 30 years, the cult of AD, like John Doan's rants about the Twin Paradox of Special Relativity, still exist, but apparently these are both alive and well, and possibly aided by the internet. Apparently, it is impossible to dissseminate real information without providing an equal opportunity to do the same for misinformation.
After a lengthy discussion via e-mail with DeHilster over 30 years ago, I decided that about the only valid criticism AD has with the theory of Special Relativity was the idea that "more than one observer" was required of Special Relativity. Actually, this is not true. What Special Relativity is trying to say really has less to do with observers than it does with two different frames of reference. If you only have one inertial frame of reference in the universe, there is literally nothing to discuss, in terms of meter sticks, clocks, or anything else. Even a single "observer" is comprised of over 10^24 atoms, each of which constitutes a different frame of reference (that is different for each and every part of the single observer that moves). Cute animations with rotund single observers was never really the point for de Hilster, or any other AD adherent, you see.
AD is simply another form of the "Einstein haters" cult, which has a history dating back as far as 1905. These people just never seem to go away, or if they do, it's to places like Argentina, apparently. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why someone like Ricardo Carezani might have really liked the idea of immigrating to that country around 1945 or so? Elie Wiesel couldn't get all of them. Even the name "Hilster" is just a little suspicious, I noticed after we parted company so very long ago. Godwin's law had not even been formulated back then.
I recommend that David de Hilster and any of his AD disciples be disallowed from editing or revising anything on Wikipedia. It would be like allowing Tom Cruise to edit Wikipedia's article on Scientology. I'm not exaggerating. Danshawen ( talk) 13:03, 16 December 2013 (UTC)danshawen
This guy seems to be the only hater in evidence. The comments under this heading show that ignorance and prejudice persists in Wikipedia. This article is useless to understand the theory being discussed is a disgrace to wikipedia. The obvious reason is the use of prejudiced editors who can not wrote a balanced and fair article regarding a scientific theory that may or may not be correct. This is a disgrace and shows why wikipedia is a bad source of information. 71.251.185.185 ( talk) 15:17, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Autodynamics article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 4 August 2007. The result of the discussion was No Consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is currently categorised under "Obsolete scientific theories" and "Pseudophysics". Since these are mutually exclusive, which is it? Bob A 04:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
intended to work out so that the daughter's magnetic rigidity is the same in AD and SR. This is explained clearly on the muon and pion pages, including the equation, and not mentioned in the rest of the AD literature---i.e., Carezani has never acknowledged the fact that there are many ways to measure charge, not just magnetic spectrometers. He treats "charge" like a meaningless fudge factor, rather than as a measureable physical quantity. There are many ways to measure charge, and exactly zero observations of non-integer (multiple of e) charges in the literature. Anyway, I gave a series of examples of charged particles which decay into other charged particles. Does AD predict
that the parent and daughter particles have different charges? Different forever, or different until they slow down? If so, please give some numerical predictions, and I'll be happy to cite non-magnetic experiments which are sensitive to the charges of beta-decay daughters, both before and after the daughters slow down or interact again. Does AD predict that the parent and daughter have the same charges? If so, a) your web page is wrong and b) your theory disagrees with magnetic-spectrometer/TOF experiments. -bm 18.4.2.3 18:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a good start, but from memory (a few years ago I informed myself about this subject) I can see that it's poorly sourced and as a result, also poorly balanced.
In particular, the SAA is in fact an amateur group of people (mostly non-scientists) lead by a photographer who sympathises with Carezani. They hardly understand the stuff that they put on internet. Thus the SAA is a very poor source of scientific information, what must be relied upon (the article isn't about the SAA!) are publications about Autodynamics in science journals, or in sofar lacking, at least articles by Carezani himself.
Moreover, a reported failure is mentioned but the pertinent admission of Carezani that his corrected theory makes the same predictions as SR is not mentioned, nor the fact that his approach can be applied to non-decay processes as well. Claimed successes of the alternative "decay" approach (see Carezani) are not mentioned at all. In particular no mention is made of the alleged improved Compton equation that was published in a peer reviewed journal together with experimental data, if I remember well.
In short, a lot needs to be improved before this article is up to quality standards. For now, I would lable both Autodynamics as well as this article Junk science.
Harald88 22:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
67.214.66.118 ( talk) 15:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)jc-at-ccad/23May2010....................... I first looked into AD given the results of SNO and Kamiokande labs in 2001 were not convincing to me. The equations of AD are in obvious need of improvement and the reader is invited to contribute in this respect. I wholely agree with R. Carezani's conclusions on SNO and Kamiokande data. It was my own suspicions of fraudulent data and conclusions from these labs that led me to seek alternative views in the internet and elsewhere. I will include my own observations at a more appropriate time. For now I think it is appropriate to quote from Gravitation and Cosmology by Steven Weinberg, 1972,
the Preface: " ...I believe the geometrical approach has driven a wedge between general relativity and the theory of elementary particles... the passage of time has taught us NOT TO EXPECT that the strong, weak, and electromagnetic interactions can be understood in geometrical terms, and too great an emphasis on geometry can only obscure the deep connections between gravitation and the rest of physics." p.147: "...At one time it was even hoped that the rest of physics could be brought into a geometric formulation, but this hope has met with disappointment, and the geometric interpretation of the theory of gravitation has dwindled to a mere analogy, which lingers in our language in terms like 'metric, 'affine connection', and 'curvature', but it is not otherwise very useful." p.201: "...if Dicke and Goldenberg are right, then the 1% agreement between Einstein's prediction and the observed anomalous precession is a mere coincidence." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.95.11.190 ( talk) 00:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
67.214.66.118 (
talk)
15:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)jc-at-ccad/21March2011...........................
In the Super-Kamiokande article in Wikipedia the History paragraph includes the statement "Despite successes in neutrino astronomy...Kamiokande DID NOT achieve its primary goal, detection of proton decay. Higher sensitivity was also necessary to obtain high statistical CONFIDENCE in its results. This led to the construction of Super-Kamiokande...(which) announced the first evidence of neutrino oscillations in 1998."
In the Large Hadron Collider article in Wikipedia we find the LHC was fired up 10 Sept. 2008 and 9 days later was halted due to "a serious fault." It will run at half power untill 2014. It will then hopefully provide data to demonstrate or rule out how the Higgs Mechanism gives mass to neutrinos, etc. But notice---there's no such evidence untill 2014. Untill then all claims about the neutrino are questionable including those from Kamiokande.
It used to be that lepton number conservation required neutrinos to be massless.
A)............Lepton number and muon number conservation require a massless neutrino: Subatomic Physics/H. Frauenfelder, E. M. Henley/1974/p.165: "The results from neutrino reactions...are corroborated by other experiments, and the fact has to be faced that neutrino and anti-neutrino are different...Such a situation is compatible with lepton number conservation only if the neutrinos HAVE NO MASS...For massive particles, a Lorentz transformation...that reverses the direction of the momentum...leaves the sense of rotation unchanged, and a right-handed particle changes into a left-handed one. A massive anti-neutrino would change into a neutrino, and lepton number would not be conserved."
L= lepton number/// L=(+1) for e(-), muon(-), e-neutrino, muon-neutrino/// L=(-1) for e(+), muon(+), e-anti-neutrino, muon-anti-neutrino/// L=0 for all other particles.
B)...........Co-60 beta decay into Ni-60 requires massless neutrinos: Radiations magazine/Am. Inst. of Physics/ D. E. Neuenschwander/Fall 2002/Radioactivity, Symmetry, and Parity/p. 20:
Co-60---------------------------- Ni-60...........+........e(-).........+..........e-anti-neutrino.
L=(0)............................ L=(0)....................L=(+1)...................L=(-1).
Lepton number is conserved and lepton number conservation requires massless neutrinos.
C)...........Helicity suppressed decays require massless neutrinos: Modern Elenentary Particle Physics/Gordon Kane/1993/Appendix E/p. 334: "...the decay can only occur if there is a spin flip. That is omly possible for particles with mass, which means that the decay amplitude has an extra factor of the mass of the particle in question. An example is..."
pion(-)-------------------------- muon(-)..........+.......muon-anti-neutrino.
L=(0)............................ L=(+1)...................L=(-1).
"...The pion(-), however, has spin zero, so the final helicities must point in opposite directions. The rate has an extra factor of muon-mass-squared or electron-mass-squared, which is why the (muon) channel dominates." See also Pion in Wikipedia. Notice that despite the helicity suppression obstacle lepton number is conserved and lepton number conservation requires massless neutrinos.
A, B, and C above require massless neutrinos but Kamiokande reports massive neutrinos. Somethig's got to give. How many rule violations do we allow the neutrino before we question its theory?
Enter Autodynamics.org where among other things we find R. Carezani's analysis of the Kamiokande data which leaves no doubt of the abscence of evidence for a nautrino in this data. Carezani correctly points to the origin of the neutrino in relativity's failure in describing Beta Decay. This brings both the neutrino and relativity into question. In Gravitation and Cosmology/1972/Preface p. vii Nobel prize winner S. Weinberg also questions relativity---"However I believe that the geometric approach has driven a wedge between general relativity and the theory of elementary particles...As long as it could be hoped...that matter would...be understood in geometrical terms, it made sense to give Riemannian geometry a primary role in describing the theory of gravitation. But now the passage of time has taught us not to expect that the strong, weak, and electromagnetic interactions can be understood in geometrical terms..." And right in line with Weinberg's statement Carezani attempts to replace the foundational object of relativity, the Lorentz transformation. Bring all offers.
I can point to two cases where arguments about the neutrino have been successfully refuted. One is Carezani's analysis of the Kamiokande data. The other is M. H. L. Pryce's arguments to demonstrate the impossibility of the Neutrino Theory of Light (Wikipedia). Both are piecemeal approaches but the arguments by Pryce give a model for a future general argument against the neutrino. Again, bring all offers. .............jc-at-ccad/3-21-11.
155.150.223.150 ( talk) 05:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)jc-atccad/22march2011........I mean bring all offers of clarification not just nay saying...I provided 3 main examples to support my argument...plus several other including Weinberg's comments on relativity...If someone can refute Pryce's arguments I'd love to see it. ...........jc-at-ccad/3-22-11.
In the article, we find the statement "The effect of the revised equations proposed in autodynamics". What equations? There are none listed. In fact, there is nothing in the article except discussion of discussions of autodynamics; as opposed to anything pertaining to the topic, itself. Since an article is supposed to explain what its topic actually is, then this needs to either be revised to do so, or else be eliminated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6000:AA4D:C5B8:0:3361:EAF8:97B7 ( talk) 12:54, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Mr. De Hilster, your recent edit was difficult to understand. I have undone it for now---perhaps you can explain here what you meant, and we'll try to come up with better wording.
In my latest edit, I changed the existing inline refs to use the ref tags. Many of the "footnotes" previously listed are not in the article any more, and using the tags should make maintenance and future changes easier. I tried not to change any wording in this edit. Here is what the footnote section was before my change. Note in particular that items 14 and 15 may be worthy of consideration for inclusion.
Caveat lector! These links are almost all to de Hilster's website. They are given here so that interested readers can verify the facts stated in the body of the article.
-- Tim Shuba 02:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I find it incredible that after over 30 years, the cult of AD, like John Doan's rants about the Twin Paradox of Special Relativity, still exist, but apparently these are both alive and well, and possibly aided by the internet. Apparently, it is impossible to dissseminate real information without providing an equal opportunity to do the same for misinformation.
After a lengthy discussion via e-mail with DeHilster over 30 years ago, I decided that about the only valid criticism AD has with the theory of Special Relativity was the idea that "more than one observer" was required of Special Relativity. Actually, this is not true. What Special Relativity is trying to say really has less to do with observers than it does with two different frames of reference. If you only have one inertial frame of reference in the universe, there is literally nothing to discuss, in terms of meter sticks, clocks, or anything else. Even a single "observer" is comprised of over 10^24 atoms, each of which constitutes a different frame of reference (that is different for each and every part of the single observer that moves). Cute animations with rotund single observers was never really the point for de Hilster, or any other AD adherent, you see.
AD is simply another form of the "Einstein haters" cult, which has a history dating back as far as 1905. These people just never seem to go away, or if they do, it's to places like Argentina, apparently. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why someone like Ricardo Carezani might have really liked the idea of immigrating to that country around 1945 or so? Elie Wiesel couldn't get all of them. Even the name "Hilster" is just a little suspicious, I noticed after we parted company so very long ago. Godwin's law had not even been formulated back then.
I recommend that David de Hilster and any of his AD disciples be disallowed from editing or revising anything on Wikipedia. It would be like allowing Tom Cruise to edit Wikipedia's article on Scientology. I'm not exaggerating. Danshawen ( talk) 13:03, 16 December 2013 (UTC)danshawen
This guy seems to be the only hater in evidence. The comments under this heading show that ignorance and prejudice persists in Wikipedia. This article is useless to understand the theory being discussed is a disgrace to wikipedia. The obvious reason is the use of prejudiced editors who can not wrote a balanced and fair article regarding a scientific theory that may or may not be correct. This is a disgrace and shows why wikipedia is a bad source of information. 71.251.185.185 ( talk) 15:17, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Autodynamics. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:36, 22 October 2016 (UTC)