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I wonder where this figure came from? A majority of scholars (about 2/3) consider that Colossians is not written by Paul. Sound as if it came from a particular survey of the field of scholars; if so, that would be a helpful citation. Thanks. Wesley 04:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Wesley, Raymond E. Brown in his An Introduction to the New Testament offers percentages of the "critical scholarship" who believe whether Paul wrote which Epistle. For the ones where there is serious doubt, here are Brown's numbers:
Brown's book is an excellent guide to the issues (both textual & of content) of the NT, & should be consulted by everyone who wants to contribute to New Testament articles. Although he admits at the beginning of this book that he is a Catholic scholar (& wrote extensively about the Johannine books before his death), he makes his own POV very clear, & provides intelligent discussions of POVs opposing his. -- llywrch 23:45, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article, like Authorship of John, is about textual criticism, and is fairly seperate to the main article on these epistles. This is also quite a large page, as is the Pauline epistles page, merging them would push the page quite high. Further, this page is linked from many textual criticism pages, it would be quite odd to be directed to a page discussing the content, in the same way as merging Markan priority with Gospel of Mark would be really quite odd. I have no issue with a small summary being placed there though. CheeseDreams 18:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why is this page totally disputed? Try it yourself. Seperate the two sets of epistles (the 7 undisputed, vs. those that are not the 7 undisputed). Read one whole set, then read the other. It is really quite different.
You can check the epistles yourself if you want, the points made in the article are true. The language is different, the greek does have large differences, the theology and style does have large differences. The vast majority of most scholars do consider that Paul did not write the pastorals. Most do not think that Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians. CheeseDreams 18:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is the majority opinion. But the text still contains the counter arguments. What is not neutral? CheeseDreams 18:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that this would be better merged with Pauline Epistles. Firstly, this is a general article that has to do with authorship, however this should be covered in the main article! It should be merged. As it is, this piece is a gigantic POV piece by one author. The central thesis of the piece is that the epistles weren't written by Paul and that most if not all scholars agree with this. No attempt at giving an opposing POV has been written although there is plenty of it around, especially amongst Christian scholars.
It sounds like an interesting debate and it would be great if you could fill in the other side!
Cheesedreams uses phrases such as the following: "For this reason, authorship of many of the epistles traditionally attributed to Paul have been in doubt for many centuries by critical scholars. By the end of the 20th century, the majority of scholars had rejected all but 7 as genuinely by Paul (consequently these 7 are known as the undisputed epistles)." and also "The pastorals were subjected to the level of computer analysis used in criminal trials for similarity of authorship, and failed that analysis." I have removed these comments as they are unsubstantiated and POV.
You what? My understanding is that this is absolutely correct. Only seven of the epistles are considered to be undisputed. That doesn't mean that the others definitely weren't written by Paul, but that only these seven are accepted by all to have been. I'm no Biblical scholar but I do know that the provenance of much of the New Testament is contested. I know this is difficult ground for believing editors, but please, try to get it into perspective.
More POV words are "weaker" and "stronger" arguments. We should not be calling them this, as we don't make value judgements!
Edit them out.
This is a basic tenant of Wikipedia, and CheeseDreams would do well to read about NPOV. Regrettably, no attempt at reading of this policy has obviously been made, and she's been busy stinking up many articles to do with Christianity. As it says on her user page "I edit controversial articles. They are usually more controversial after I start editing them." [1]
They ought to be more controversial though. They should not present a Christian POV as if it were neutral.
The 2/3rd argument has been removed also. There is no source for this, and it seems dubious at best. I have changed it to "Other arguments rely on the polemical content of the letter, certain concepts, and false-teacher arguments, not expressed by other Christian writers until the end of the first century, making an appearance in Colossians." You'll notice I've removed "However, such before their time issues can be explained by Paul being the source of these concepts, rather that merely a redistributer of them (although this can also be used to argue that Paul made them up himself, rather than reflecting the faith)." because this appears to be original research. I've also marked this section as dubious as it now employs weasel words (I was forced to because of the dubiousness of CheeseDreams claims).
I agree that CheeseDreams must source the 2/3rds assertion. Hit the books, CheeseDreams, because you know that that will be contentious enough to need referencing.
I've also removed any reference to "disputed" and "undisputed" epistles as this seems to be the POV of CheeseDreams.
No. This is common enough that even I've heard of it.
If an epistle is disputed, we should mention it in the section that talks about the epistle, we shouldn't be confirming or denying the status of the epistle as this statement in itself is disputed by many Christians.
I have to disagree. Saying something is "disputed" simply describes it as being under dispute. It doesn't make a judgement about whether it should be disputed etc. It distinguishes those epistles that are agreed by all to be written by Paul from those that are disputed; no more, no less. I think that if you were able to step back and look at that idea from a more neutral standpoint, you'd see that it's not as bad as you seem to think. I can fully understand your sensitivity though. I imagine the outrage of Moslems if it were suggested that some of the Koran was of disputed authorship. Trying to convince them that saying it's true that it's disputed is different from saying that it *should be* disputed would be a very difficult task.
I notice quite a few claims have not been substantiated. For instance: "Those who contest Paul's authorship state that such parallels are merely due to a careful forger, deliberately introducing unnecessary additional greetings for the purpose of making the text appear more genuine." Who contested Paul's authorship?
This guy wrote a book about the "undisputed epistles". This implies he at least thinks the rest are "disputed".
I have moved the "(possibly forged)" because this is not substantiated and appears to be the view of the author. Again this is a POV statement. However, now the paragraph reads:
"The extensiveness of the development of the theology in the epistle compared to that of other epistles has led many scholars to the opinion that if it is genuine, then it must be very late. However, due to the apparant consideration of the letter as genuine by the author of the Ephesians, then most scholars think that if Colossians is forged, it is very early."
Again, no scholars are quoted and it is made out like this is an accepted fact, which it is not, especially amongst Christians.
There were quite a few "facts" in there. Which one in particular don't Christians accept? I've run out of time. I think some of your points are valid, Ta bu, and I agree that this article can be much improved. But *work with* CheeseDreams, hey? This antagonistic approach doesn't help at all.
Ben Standeven 21:52, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Now we get to Ephesians. It says that "Ephesians bears a strong similarity to Colossians, to the extent that over 40 areas of the text can be identified in Colossians which Ephesians reproduces, expands upon them and adding." No attempt at telling us any of the 40 areas of text are identified! So marking this as dubious. However, the rest of the paragraph reads: "It is for this reason that almost all scholars think that Ephesians is an edited reworked reproduction of Colossians, though whether this is due to Paul seeking to emphasise particular meanings, or whether it is down to a forger trying to alter perception of Paul's teachings, is a matter of more dispute, about 2/3 of scholars choosing the latter." almost all scholars think that? great, what a POV sweeping statement. So I've also rephrased this to "many scholars", however this now means I've had to add a weasel word. I also dispute the "about 2/3 of scholars choosing the latter." bit, so I've removed it. So now it reads:
"It is for this reason that many scholars think that Ephesians is an edited and reworked reproduction of Colossians, though whether this is due to Paul seeking to emphasise particular meanings, or whether it is down to a forger trying to alter perception of Paul's teachings, is a matter of more dispute."
Yet this is still not very good, because a) no scholars are mentioned (you expect me to take this on faith?!) b)no sources are given c) I have no way of verifying this information and how to rebutt it or provide an alternative POV. So this is totally POV still. So again, I've marked is as dubious.
"Many terms found in parts of the new testament which are considered to have been written after Paul's death are found within Ephesians, though not in other epistles, and for terms that are, the author makes a different choice of usage, for example linking pistis with kurios rather than just christos." I don't even know where to start with this paragraph. Firstly, you'll notice that I've removed the "disputed" bit. Its almost impossible for me to understand what is being said in this sentence because it's so convuluted! I've attempted a copyedit, but I don't know how well I've suceeded. Hint for CheeseDreams: Greek has a capital letter. So does New Testament. Part of my copy edit to the paragraph was to change it to "Such variations occur to the extent that many scholars think that, though Paul's authorship is not impossible, if Paul did write such a letter, someone else rewrote it." Funny however that no scholars are given and we're just expected to accept what is written here.
"One of the more noticable differences between Ephesians and other epistles is the distinct lack of any reference to an impending occurrance of the day of Christ. Also, the image of marriage as an heavenly union between the church and Christ contrasts noticably with 1 Corinthians' suggestion that marriage is to be avoided if possible."
No source. Original research.
"The general nature of the epistle itself, unlike those of the undisputed, is more a general homily, than anything directed at a particular community (such as the Ephesians themselves). To textual critics, such as Richard Heard, such variations are suspicious, in particular phrases such as holy apostles seeming completely out of place, except to a writer from a more developed church (such as that of the second century)."
And now we get to the absolutely beautiful bit. This bit kills me.
"2 Thessalonians is considered by scholars, such as Udo Schnelle <!-- do we really have to put in "supported by X" it just looks sloppy and unreadable, it's in the bibliography -->, to be significantly different in style to the undisputed epistles, being whole and narrow rather than a lively and abrupt discussion on a range of issues. Neither does 2 Thessalonians have significant open or deep questions unlike much of the remainder of Paul's writing, and, according to scholars, such as Alfred Loisy, seems to reflect knowledge of the synoptic gospels, which had not been written when Paul wrote his epistles. Further reason for scepticism, such as that of Bart Ehrman{{nowiki></nowiki>, derives from the insistence of genuineness within it, and the strong condemnation of forgery at its start (a ploy commonly used in forged documents)."
We have two comments in the text (I notice not on talk!) "do we really have to put in "supported by X" it just looks sloppy and unreadable, it's in the bibliography" and "again, I object to "according to X" on grounds of poor style" Allow me to be the first to point out to you that all statements on Wikipedia must be qualified. Allow me to be the first to point out to you that we loathe weasel terms. So, yes! you need to include these in the text! And please don't discuss "style". So far I've noticed the poor style that this article has been written in. No wonder this article is so disputed! Sheesh.
Now, does Bart Ehrman argue that it is (a ploy commonly used in forged documents)? This isn't clear. Want to substantiate this further? Sounds dodgy, but if he says this then we should make it clear.
"Another issue often raised is that of context, for example, in the time of Paul, prayer usually treated God (the Father) as ultimate judge, rather than Jesus (as Christians nearer the end of the first century started to), which to scholars, such as Norman Perrin, <!-- this according to X thing just really looks ridiculous--> suggests that 2 Thessalonians stating may the Lord direct your hearts to ... the steadfastness of Christ unlike 1 Thessalonians' may establish your hearts unblamable ... before God and Father, implies it having been written during times after Paul's death."
No, CheeseDreams, it doesn't look ridiculous. It's part of NPOV and a part of removing weasel words. It stops disputes.
Honestly, this is one of the worst written articles I've read on Wikipedia, and I've read a few. - Ta bu shi da yu 23:44, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's not nice. -- Dr Zen in italics Dr Zen 03:01, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If Paul were completely against marriage, then surely he would have criticized Peter for being married, rather than defend his marriage? He certainly wasn't shy about criticizing Peter on other grounds, when he felt it was warranted. But really, if that's the standard interpretation among gay non-Christians, that's fine. As always, all I ask is that such interpretations be attributed appropriately rather than stated as fact. So, what would be the most appropriate attribution? Wesley 23:29, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I am a seminary student and actually have studied with one of the foremost Pauline scholars in the Biblical scholarship world. Are you interested in my comments? I think that a lot of the arguments presented here show a demonstrated lack of understanding of the field of Biblical scholarship. There is so much here though, that I'm not sure where to start.
Where could my skills and knowledge best be put to use?
--
Shanneranner 01:32, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Just want to chip in briefly here. The scholarly website Early Christian Writings contains clear links to pages on the various Pauline letters, and discussion of their contents and possible authorship presented clearly and concisely, with numerous references to the scholars advocating the positions, and links to further offsite resources. It should hopefully be useful to those here complaining about the lack of citable sources for various agruments.
For example, the entry for Colossians not only mentions that it was Raymond Brown who supplied the 60% statistic discussed at the top of the page, but also mentions that it features on page 610 of his "An Introduction to the New Testament"-- MockTurtle 03:06, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This sentence is from the second paragraph of the opening section:
The latter three, the "Pastoral Epistles", are widely regarded as pseudographs,
The word "pseudographs" is made a hyperlink to the Pseudepigraph article. The Pseudepigraph article doesn't mention pseudograph.
There are three issues here I think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEGa3BgHPwo
Watch from 2:50. He clearly says Paul did not write 2 Corinthians. Further he says it is widely agreed in scholarship.
Your claim that 2 Cor being written by Paul is rarely disputed is wrong.
You should remove it or site a scholarly claim supporting it. 73.234.251.117 ( talk) 16:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
The article does not acknowledge that many have a contrary opinion to that stated, i.e., many do accept the genuine authorship of all the Pauline letters. Several letters are stated as non-Pauline as fact, whereas in reality they are merely disputed. 95.229.8.162 ( talk) 02:14, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
The article states as fact that some of the letters are not written by Paul. However, many accept the genuine authorship of all these letters. Therefore, the only correct statement is that they are disputed. 95.229.8.162 ( talk) 02:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Authorship of the Pauline epistles article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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Authorship of the Pauline epistles received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
I wonder where this figure came from? A majority of scholars (about 2/3) consider that Colossians is not written by Paul. Sound as if it came from a particular survey of the field of scholars; if so, that would be a helpful citation. Thanks. Wesley 04:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Wesley, Raymond E. Brown in his An Introduction to the New Testament offers percentages of the "critical scholarship" who believe whether Paul wrote which Epistle. For the ones where there is serious doubt, here are Brown's numbers:
Brown's book is an excellent guide to the issues (both textual & of content) of the NT, & should be consulted by everyone who wants to contribute to New Testament articles. Although he admits at the beginning of this book that he is a Catholic scholar (& wrote extensively about the Johannine books before his death), he makes his own POV very clear, & provides intelligent discussions of POVs opposing his. -- llywrch 23:45, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article, like Authorship of John, is about textual criticism, and is fairly seperate to the main article on these epistles. This is also quite a large page, as is the Pauline epistles page, merging them would push the page quite high. Further, this page is linked from many textual criticism pages, it would be quite odd to be directed to a page discussing the content, in the same way as merging Markan priority with Gospel of Mark would be really quite odd. I have no issue with a small summary being placed there though. CheeseDreams 18:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why is this page totally disputed? Try it yourself. Seperate the two sets of epistles (the 7 undisputed, vs. those that are not the 7 undisputed). Read one whole set, then read the other. It is really quite different.
You can check the epistles yourself if you want, the points made in the article are true. The language is different, the greek does have large differences, the theology and style does have large differences. The vast majority of most scholars do consider that Paul did not write the pastorals. Most do not think that Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians. CheeseDreams 18:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is the majority opinion. But the text still contains the counter arguments. What is not neutral? CheeseDreams 18:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that this would be better merged with Pauline Epistles. Firstly, this is a general article that has to do with authorship, however this should be covered in the main article! It should be merged. As it is, this piece is a gigantic POV piece by one author. The central thesis of the piece is that the epistles weren't written by Paul and that most if not all scholars agree with this. No attempt at giving an opposing POV has been written although there is plenty of it around, especially amongst Christian scholars.
It sounds like an interesting debate and it would be great if you could fill in the other side!
Cheesedreams uses phrases such as the following: "For this reason, authorship of many of the epistles traditionally attributed to Paul have been in doubt for many centuries by critical scholars. By the end of the 20th century, the majority of scholars had rejected all but 7 as genuinely by Paul (consequently these 7 are known as the undisputed epistles)." and also "The pastorals were subjected to the level of computer analysis used in criminal trials for similarity of authorship, and failed that analysis." I have removed these comments as they are unsubstantiated and POV.
You what? My understanding is that this is absolutely correct. Only seven of the epistles are considered to be undisputed. That doesn't mean that the others definitely weren't written by Paul, but that only these seven are accepted by all to have been. I'm no Biblical scholar but I do know that the provenance of much of the New Testament is contested. I know this is difficult ground for believing editors, but please, try to get it into perspective.
More POV words are "weaker" and "stronger" arguments. We should not be calling them this, as we don't make value judgements!
Edit them out.
This is a basic tenant of Wikipedia, and CheeseDreams would do well to read about NPOV. Regrettably, no attempt at reading of this policy has obviously been made, and she's been busy stinking up many articles to do with Christianity. As it says on her user page "I edit controversial articles. They are usually more controversial after I start editing them." [1]
They ought to be more controversial though. They should not present a Christian POV as if it were neutral.
The 2/3rd argument has been removed also. There is no source for this, and it seems dubious at best. I have changed it to "Other arguments rely on the polemical content of the letter, certain concepts, and false-teacher arguments, not expressed by other Christian writers until the end of the first century, making an appearance in Colossians." You'll notice I've removed "However, such before their time issues can be explained by Paul being the source of these concepts, rather that merely a redistributer of them (although this can also be used to argue that Paul made them up himself, rather than reflecting the faith)." because this appears to be original research. I've also marked this section as dubious as it now employs weasel words (I was forced to because of the dubiousness of CheeseDreams claims).
I agree that CheeseDreams must source the 2/3rds assertion. Hit the books, CheeseDreams, because you know that that will be contentious enough to need referencing.
I've also removed any reference to "disputed" and "undisputed" epistles as this seems to be the POV of CheeseDreams.
No. This is common enough that even I've heard of it.
If an epistle is disputed, we should mention it in the section that talks about the epistle, we shouldn't be confirming or denying the status of the epistle as this statement in itself is disputed by many Christians.
I have to disagree. Saying something is "disputed" simply describes it as being under dispute. It doesn't make a judgement about whether it should be disputed etc. It distinguishes those epistles that are agreed by all to be written by Paul from those that are disputed; no more, no less. I think that if you were able to step back and look at that idea from a more neutral standpoint, you'd see that it's not as bad as you seem to think. I can fully understand your sensitivity though. I imagine the outrage of Moslems if it were suggested that some of the Koran was of disputed authorship. Trying to convince them that saying it's true that it's disputed is different from saying that it *should be* disputed would be a very difficult task.
I notice quite a few claims have not been substantiated. For instance: "Those who contest Paul's authorship state that such parallels are merely due to a careful forger, deliberately introducing unnecessary additional greetings for the purpose of making the text appear more genuine." Who contested Paul's authorship?
This guy wrote a book about the "undisputed epistles". This implies he at least thinks the rest are "disputed".
I have moved the "(possibly forged)" because this is not substantiated and appears to be the view of the author. Again this is a POV statement. However, now the paragraph reads:
"The extensiveness of the development of the theology in the epistle compared to that of other epistles has led many scholars to the opinion that if it is genuine, then it must be very late. However, due to the apparant consideration of the letter as genuine by the author of the Ephesians, then most scholars think that if Colossians is forged, it is very early."
Again, no scholars are quoted and it is made out like this is an accepted fact, which it is not, especially amongst Christians.
There were quite a few "facts" in there. Which one in particular don't Christians accept? I've run out of time. I think some of your points are valid, Ta bu, and I agree that this article can be much improved. But *work with* CheeseDreams, hey? This antagonistic approach doesn't help at all.
Ben Standeven 21:52, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Now we get to Ephesians. It says that "Ephesians bears a strong similarity to Colossians, to the extent that over 40 areas of the text can be identified in Colossians which Ephesians reproduces, expands upon them and adding." No attempt at telling us any of the 40 areas of text are identified! So marking this as dubious. However, the rest of the paragraph reads: "It is for this reason that almost all scholars think that Ephesians is an edited reworked reproduction of Colossians, though whether this is due to Paul seeking to emphasise particular meanings, or whether it is down to a forger trying to alter perception of Paul's teachings, is a matter of more dispute, about 2/3 of scholars choosing the latter." almost all scholars think that? great, what a POV sweeping statement. So I've also rephrased this to "many scholars", however this now means I've had to add a weasel word. I also dispute the "about 2/3 of scholars choosing the latter." bit, so I've removed it. So now it reads:
"It is for this reason that many scholars think that Ephesians is an edited and reworked reproduction of Colossians, though whether this is due to Paul seeking to emphasise particular meanings, or whether it is down to a forger trying to alter perception of Paul's teachings, is a matter of more dispute."
Yet this is still not very good, because a) no scholars are mentioned (you expect me to take this on faith?!) b)no sources are given c) I have no way of verifying this information and how to rebutt it or provide an alternative POV. So this is totally POV still. So again, I've marked is as dubious.
"Many terms found in parts of the new testament which are considered to have been written after Paul's death are found within Ephesians, though not in other epistles, and for terms that are, the author makes a different choice of usage, for example linking pistis with kurios rather than just christos." I don't even know where to start with this paragraph. Firstly, you'll notice that I've removed the "disputed" bit. Its almost impossible for me to understand what is being said in this sentence because it's so convuluted! I've attempted a copyedit, but I don't know how well I've suceeded. Hint for CheeseDreams: Greek has a capital letter. So does New Testament. Part of my copy edit to the paragraph was to change it to "Such variations occur to the extent that many scholars think that, though Paul's authorship is not impossible, if Paul did write such a letter, someone else rewrote it." Funny however that no scholars are given and we're just expected to accept what is written here.
"One of the more noticable differences between Ephesians and other epistles is the distinct lack of any reference to an impending occurrance of the day of Christ. Also, the image of marriage as an heavenly union between the church and Christ contrasts noticably with 1 Corinthians' suggestion that marriage is to be avoided if possible."
No source. Original research.
"The general nature of the epistle itself, unlike those of the undisputed, is more a general homily, than anything directed at a particular community (such as the Ephesians themselves). To textual critics, such as Richard Heard, such variations are suspicious, in particular phrases such as holy apostles seeming completely out of place, except to a writer from a more developed church (such as that of the second century)."
And now we get to the absolutely beautiful bit. This bit kills me.
"2 Thessalonians is considered by scholars, such as Udo Schnelle <!-- do we really have to put in "supported by X" it just looks sloppy and unreadable, it's in the bibliography -->, to be significantly different in style to the undisputed epistles, being whole and narrow rather than a lively and abrupt discussion on a range of issues. Neither does 2 Thessalonians have significant open or deep questions unlike much of the remainder of Paul's writing, and, according to scholars, such as Alfred Loisy, seems to reflect knowledge of the synoptic gospels, which had not been written when Paul wrote his epistles. Further reason for scepticism, such as that of Bart Ehrman{{nowiki></nowiki>, derives from the insistence of genuineness within it, and the strong condemnation of forgery at its start (a ploy commonly used in forged documents)."
We have two comments in the text (I notice not on talk!) "do we really have to put in "supported by X" it just looks sloppy and unreadable, it's in the bibliography" and "again, I object to "according to X" on grounds of poor style" Allow me to be the first to point out to you that all statements on Wikipedia must be qualified. Allow me to be the first to point out to you that we loathe weasel terms. So, yes! you need to include these in the text! And please don't discuss "style". So far I've noticed the poor style that this article has been written in. No wonder this article is so disputed! Sheesh.
Now, does Bart Ehrman argue that it is (a ploy commonly used in forged documents)? This isn't clear. Want to substantiate this further? Sounds dodgy, but if he says this then we should make it clear.
"Another issue often raised is that of context, for example, in the time of Paul, prayer usually treated God (the Father) as ultimate judge, rather than Jesus (as Christians nearer the end of the first century started to), which to scholars, such as Norman Perrin, <!-- this according to X thing just really looks ridiculous--> suggests that 2 Thessalonians stating may the Lord direct your hearts to ... the steadfastness of Christ unlike 1 Thessalonians' may establish your hearts unblamable ... before God and Father, implies it having been written during times after Paul's death."
No, CheeseDreams, it doesn't look ridiculous. It's part of NPOV and a part of removing weasel words. It stops disputes.
Honestly, this is one of the worst written articles I've read on Wikipedia, and I've read a few. - Ta bu shi da yu 23:44, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's not nice. -- Dr Zen in italics Dr Zen 03:01, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If Paul were completely against marriage, then surely he would have criticized Peter for being married, rather than defend his marriage? He certainly wasn't shy about criticizing Peter on other grounds, when he felt it was warranted. But really, if that's the standard interpretation among gay non-Christians, that's fine. As always, all I ask is that such interpretations be attributed appropriately rather than stated as fact. So, what would be the most appropriate attribution? Wesley 23:29, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I am a seminary student and actually have studied with one of the foremost Pauline scholars in the Biblical scholarship world. Are you interested in my comments? I think that a lot of the arguments presented here show a demonstrated lack of understanding of the field of Biblical scholarship. There is so much here though, that I'm not sure where to start.
Where could my skills and knowledge best be put to use?
--
Shanneranner 01:32, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Just want to chip in briefly here. The scholarly website Early Christian Writings contains clear links to pages on the various Pauline letters, and discussion of their contents and possible authorship presented clearly and concisely, with numerous references to the scholars advocating the positions, and links to further offsite resources. It should hopefully be useful to those here complaining about the lack of citable sources for various agruments.
For example, the entry for Colossians not only mentions that it was Raymond Brown who supplied the 60% statistic discussed at the top of the page, but also mentions that it features on page 610 of his "An Introduction to the New Testament"-- MockTurtle 03:06, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This sentence is from the second paragraph of the opening section:
The latter three, the "Pastoral Epistles", are widely regarded as pseudographs,
The word "pseudographs" is made a hyperlink to the Pseudepigraph article. The Pseudepigraph article doesn't mention pseudograph.
There are three issues here I think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEGa3BgHPwo
Watch from 2:50. He clearly says Paul did not write 2 Corinthians. Further he says it is widely agreed in scholarship.
Your claim that 2 Cor being written by Paul is rarely disputed is wrong.
You should remove it or site a scholarly claim supporting it. 73.234.251.117 ( talk) 16:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
The article does not acknowledge that many have a contrary opinion to that stated, i.e., many do accept the genuine authorship of all the Pauline letters. Several letters are stated as non-Pauline as fact, whereas in reality they are merely disputed. 95.229.8.162 ( talk) 02:14, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
The article states as fact that some of the letters are not written by Paul. However, many accept the genuine authorship of all these letters. Therefore, the only correct statement is that they are disputed. 95.229.8.162 ( talk) 02:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)