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In that bullet-list about arguments for authorship, there is a lot of talk about "the book", even references to bible verse. However, the heading concerns the authorship of "the books", and it is not even clear what book the article author refers to. vintermann ---
The dates given for the writings of John as well as his age at the time were greatly skewed toward the argument and left out a lot of fact. The age for the apostles was 17-26 (estimated of course, but more accurate than "in his twenties") and the writings are dated as having been written in the last years of the first century (The Catholic Encyclopedia being the most complete on this subject is my main source for dates, not theology, folks.) The age is still significant, but the placement of 102 as the minimum age for John when he wrote the Gospels is not based in any fact whatsoever. Of course, the piece itself is contrasting opinions on which neither on has a whole lot of basis in provable fact, but again, this way is more accurate. -- TheGrza 05:18, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
As for the first point on the truth of the Apostle John's claim to the authorship, the use of language seemed to have a POV, regardless of intention. I took it out of the parentheses and reworded slightly. Hope it's better. -- TheGrza 05:23, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
Check out the Catholic Encyclopedia and some other reputable sources. They match on everything except theology.
If this article is to be exclusively about the gospel of John, the title should be, as it is now "Authorship of John". If the article is to be about the Johannine works, the title should be "Authorship of the Johannine works". In addition, the article should be split into sections more , e.g.
Comments? CheeseDreams 21:20, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) If no-one comments, I will either add a disclaimer "this is about the gospel of John" or something. Or change the title and add the sectioning. Haven't decided which I prefer yet. CheeseDreams 23:34, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The supposed illiteracy of John the Apostle comes from Acts 4:13 which says "When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus." (NIV) See B.W. Johnson's Commentary on John (not an unbiased source, but we're talking about Bible Scholars here). There is nothing about illiteracy. Also, if you note the point immediately after the illiterate point, they are strikingly similar so I just merged the two. Hope this clear up the confusion. -- TheGrza 07:09, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
The only point really to take from the piece I had you look at was the fact that the only evidence of his illiteracy was Acts 4:13 which mentions no illiteracy except in the DARBY translation and the Wycliffe New Testament versions of Acts 4:13. So nowhere in the Bible in 95% of the translations does it mention something about being "unlettered and plebeian." If you are going to say that the bible insinuated that John was illiterate, first of all, do it right and find where it mentions this and put that in the article.
As to your other point that lack of schooling infers illiteracy, that's highly POV and really has no basis in fact. There are a number of other issues that could promote literacy without expanding one's knowledge, or having someone be known as a smart guy. Including reading the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh. Which they, as Jews, devout Jews who most historical accounts suggest were with John the Baptist before Jesus came around. John the Baptist known for running a completely insane and rigourously devout colony of people that wouldn't be inhabited by those who didn't know the Torah and Tanakh. So to infer from one passage the literacy of this man and to not include where you get any information is clearly POV and also clearly uninformed. I'm reverting it back to it's original state which makes the point that John was no genius and that for him to have written it probably would need something on the scale of a large deity but that no, he wasn't illiterate.--[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 18:37, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I would suggest that the difference between "without learning" and "unlettered" are pretty far apart. I don't think there is nearly enough evidence to suggest that the man was illiterate at any point, regardless of learning. And, I point out as well, that all but two of the translations take the "without learning" angle, even the non-secular and historical study bibles that are not translated by religous people but by linguists and historians for the sole purpose of studying this age, not this religion. If they all disagreed because they had manufactured the idea that John was a leopard instead of a human being that would not merit inclusion. We should be including the points that have basis in fact, as all the others do. When it is argued that John could have learned to write by the time he hit old age, this is not a reason not to include the argument because that would belong in the "for" column. This is not that case. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this specific argument against. Also, we are not removing legitimate arguments against John having written the books, we are removing arguments with no basis in fact. Your reference to Genesis is a complete non sequiter. (I understand that you are referring to the article. I still maintain that it makes no sense at all in this context.) --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 00:47, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Well, me and you will just have to disagree on the asinine leopard comment, but your point about scribes is a good one. However, literacy rates among the Jewish faithful were much higher and among the ultra-religious (and John was not just a fisherman, he had been a member of the Baptist collective with John the Baptist) it was very high. Many of the Gnostics actually came out of this tradition which is how THEY were able to write. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 01:21, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
No, smartass, it was stupid. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 01:21, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
What is literacy in the ancient age? Not many could sit down and read a letter through on a first reading, most readers had to sound it out and figure out the paragraphs and sentences. Thus, today, most would be considered functionally illiterate, even scholars. Ceasar was thought to be remarkable in that he could read a letter through at first look. However, the widespread use of graffiti shows that even the common people could read a little. So, even if John was "unschooled" in AD30 or so, he may well have been somewhat literate- and of course, he may have well become a scholar in the next several decades. Finally, unschooled or not, he certainly could have dictated the book to scribes. 162.93.199.11 ( talk) 18:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
So I'm idly reading this article, when I reach the bottom & notice that there are only three sources in the bibliography, & at least twice as many sources referred to in the article, e.g. "G.H.C. McGregor (1928)". Do I need to emphasize just how unprofessional this looks?
I'm not arguing any POV -- except that if you refer to a source, provide the referent -- name, title, publication details. If you care about this article, please fix it. Otherwise I'll let my inner grumpy nature out, & let it make a large number of edits to prove my point. -- llywrch 02:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Isn't the Letter of Ignatius to the Philippians generally considered spurious? It seems to me that its inclusion in this article is inappropriate. Perhaps a scholar can comment? Brucelange 03:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
My opinion, from reading the article, is that the article is a bit confused concerning authorship. Sometimes very strong statements are given that the historical apostle John is completely eliminated as a possible author. Then, at other times, the article gives positions iterating the possibility of John's involvement in authorship. Also, there doesn't seem to be a very coherent approach to discussing the issue, rather the treatment is more frenetic. As a result the reader is jolted into one position, then out of it, with nothing more than statements like "most scholars agree..." I think there is room for subtle improvement here. Lostcaesar 23:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
In addition, there is little to no mention at all of any recent conservative scholarly works which have thoroughly, effectively, and logically defended an Apostlic Johannine scholarship of the Gospel. Just to prove my point, there was not much effort put forth to mention well respected Biblical scholars such as Friedrich Schleiermacher, B.F Westcott, Adolf Schlatter, P-Gardener Smith, A.T. Robinson, Martin Hengel, Richard Bauckham, D.A. Caron, Leon Morris, F.F. Bruce, Herman Ridderbos, Andreas Kostenberger, and many other "modern scholars" who have vehemently defended a Johnainnie authorship of the Fourth Gospel. I will say, however, that the article did a decent job at showing support for Johannine scholarship by the early Apostolic and Patriarchial Fathers of the Church (such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Papia, Irenaeus, and etc...). My main problem is that an unaware reader would come across this article and believe it to be a fact there there are no credible schoalars who would dare to believe that, yes, the apostle John did in fact write the Gospel of John... - which is heavily supported by both external and internal evidence within the Gospel itself (As shown very thoroughly by P-Gardner Smith's work and A.T. Robinson's essay titled "The New Look on the Fourht Gospel", 1959). - just to note, I compiled the list of modern scholars who support Johnannine scholarship from Adreas Kostenberger, Encountering John (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 1999), 213. - Jesse Nelms, July 11, 2009. For more dicussion: jesse_nelms@gfwpb.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by JesseNelms ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
sections
History of critical scholarship "Many modern critics follow him in this late dating."
More recent criticism
"Many suggested further that John the Baptist himself belonged to an Essene community, and if John the Apostle had previously been a disciple of the Baptist, he would have been affected by that teaching."
Otherwise inexplicable is misleading referring to the temple courts narrative. There are other explanations, so I've reworded it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.24.30 ( talk) 09:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Modern criticism
"Many critical scholars today conclude (with the tradition) that the "disciple whom Jesus loved" was intended to be understood as John the Apostle"
"Most scholars posit a community of writers rather than a single individual that gave final form to the work"
"Most scholars date the writing of the Gospel to the last four or five years of the first century"
"However, as noted above, a few choose a much later date, typically around the time of Irenaeus - circa 180AD."
"Consequently several scholars have proposed that the Gospel was deliberately written in the late second century to explicitly oppose those heresies"
"Some scholars have even proposed that Irenaeus himself, who had a similar writing style, theology, and knowledge of literary Greek, was the author"
First epistle
"Given the similarity with the Gospel, most critical scholars assign the same authorship to the epistle that they assign to the Gospel. Most refer to a Johannine school from which the letter stemmed, possibly even from the hand of the apostle himself."
Second and third epistles
Thus most scholars assume that some personality in the circle of disciples of John was the author of these books.
LoveMonkey 03:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
-Cut from article-
As well as the recent work of Charles Hill's The Johannine Corpus in the Early Church. In which Charles Hill gives evidence that the Gospel of John was used between CE 90 and 130, the possible use of uniquely Johannine gospel material in several works which date from this period. These works and authors include Ignatius (c.107); Polycarp (c.107); Papias’ elders (c.110-120); Hierapolis' Exegesis of the Lord’s Oracles (c.120-132). Hill assesses that many historical figures did indeed reference the Gospel of John.
-End of Cut-
I've cut this because Charles Hill doesn't seem to be a notable scholar - see Appropriate sources for wikipedia, and doesn't seem to have affected the views of notable scholars. He just seems to be "some evangelical protestant seminary teacher" (that probably should make his bias clear as well). Clinkophonist 21:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
LoveMonkey 13:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Please restore your edits. LoveMonkey 13:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how you can say that a book published by OUP is inappropriate for wikipedia. It's perhaps the premier academic press in the English-speaking world. There are also, at the link, favorable blurbs about his book from mainstream journals. On what basis do you claim, Clinkophonist, that Hill is only "some evangelical protestant seminary teacher"? john k 15:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to add to this - having looked up Reformed Theological Seminary, it does seem to be a fairly dubious enterprise, with its support for Biblical inerrancy, and what not. That said, the book was still published by OUP, and that means it counts as a proper scholarly publication, whatever its author's biases may be. john k 15:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Wow, this had me ROFL! The scholar is (gasp!) an evangelical Protestant who supports (gasp!) Biblical inerrancy. Therefore he is surely biased. I can only hope that the irony was intentional. :) -- SlothMcCarty ( talk) 05:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
This text doesn't seem quite right:
The identification of some of the texts with a "John the Priest" may be seen in Eusebius, long before the sixth century. And the slow acceptence of Revelation among the Eastern Fathers is enough to show some hesitency about identifying John the Apostle as author. The same may be said of one of the epistles. My point is, even with the ref to Harris, I think the info is wrong - an oversimplification. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, granted, but its something we might want to think about. Lostcaesar 15:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
John of Patmos contains info on the authorship of Revelation. I have redirected it here and checked that all information is copied here. -- Ephilei 16:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
As I have been following the links on this page, I have noticed that the first paragraph on "History of the Use of Johannine works is blantantly plagarized from http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works_-_History_of_use_of_the_Johannine_works/id/612856 As a result, I feel it necessary to this section, and to have a new beginning to this article. This is a shameful way to use wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.184.238.231 ( talk) 19:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
another use of plagarism I have found:
Texts of the Nag Hammadi library show that many of the Gospel of John's earliest readers responded to the text "in surprising and imaginative ways." The whole sentence should be in quotations because the whole sentence is taken from Pagel's book. Now, we must also admit that Pagel's book is focused on the Gospel of Thomas. Why are we using it for comment on John? I'm pretty sure the person has not read the book, or they would have presented her views more distinctly. In what surprising and imaginative ways did the readers respond? Since this sentence has no power, I believe it should be taken out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.184.238.231 ( talk) 20:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
A recently added sentence says that John the Presbyter probably never existed. That's strange, since he claimed to write 2 John and 3 John. I added a dubious tag because this statement doesn't match my research or seem to fit the evidence. It also seems to come from a source that implies John the Apostle wrote 2 and 3 John, which doesn't square with my textbook. Maybe we could get a quote from the source (an evangelical scholar). Leadwind ( talk) 15:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Robert Fortna's work appears to be completely overlooked. See [1]. He provides evidence for two (or three) stages in the writing of the gospel, the earliest dating to before Mark. Harry.Erwin ( talk) 08:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The final paragraph of the section entitled "Modern criticism" (Most scholars date the writing of the Gospel to c. 90 ... which was important in the early "charismatic" movement known as Montanism) appears to be misplaced: it doesn't cite any modern writers or movements. Indeed it doesn't cite anything and its concerns with John's age appear to be WP:OR while the remainder recaps early criticism. Any objections if I delete this paragraph? -- Timberframe ( talk) 12:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi RomanHistorian, As a Christian, I like your editing, but many of your edits show a Christian POV. Remember at Wikipedia we must fairly reflect the scholarship in reliable sources. Keep up the good work. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I've examined the article in its current form, and I've looked at the history and discussion that led to its creation, but I think the time has come to reevaluate this article's existence.
The original thinking was, you have five canonical books attributed to "John", and you have several Johns who may or may not be identical and who may or may not be the author(s) of these books, so rather than discuss this mess on a dozen different pages, create one central page—this article—where everything is sorted out in a single coherent discussion.
But what we have is a lengthy discourse on the origin of the Gospel, a very brief treatment of the epistles, and a separate treatment of Revelation that could well stand separately. So, the benefit of discussing authorship in a single article is mostly lost. Only very briefly is the similarity in style between the Gospel and 1 John or Revelation brought forth as a point of discussion.
The more serious issue, apart from this fragmentary treatment, is that sorting out the Johns encompasses more than issues of authorship. Suppose that John the Elder wrote all the Johannine works, while John the Apostle wrote none of them. Or suppose that some second-century writer (even, perhaps, one coincidentally named John) actually composed some of these works but passed them off as the work of an earlier John, perhaps the apostle, about whom much was still remembered. What do we know about the Johns who may not have written anything? Were they identical or distinct? Whose tombs were the two tombs of John in Ephesus?
My tentative suggestion is:
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Either here or on John of Patmos, it might be worthwhile to mention that the Book of Mormon goes out of its way to claim specifically that John-the-author-of-Revelation and John-the-apostle are the same person. Quoting 1 Nephi 14:20–27:
“ | And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things ... And he shall also write concerning the end of the world. Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true ... And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel. | ” |
Now, this is not evidence of any actual connection, but it's an interesting record of the identification of the two Johns with each other in the popular imagination circa 1830, and also in a present-day religious tradition. And it would be interesting to know if any other major religions have an official position on Johannine authorship. — Quuxplusone ( talk) 02:29, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't want to start a theological debate, but Psuedo-Ignatius' Letter to the Philippians cannot be used to date the Gospel of John to before 107 AD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.114.39.140 ( talk) 18:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm no expert, but I feel that much is pretty clear.
I can't access the source, so I can't fix it myself.
Gospel | Marcion | Justin | Valentinus | Hegesip. | Ptolem. | Melito | Apollin. | Athenag. |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Synoptics | Luke | 170 | 1 | 3? | 4 | 4 | 1 | 13 |
John or Epistles | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 0 |
Thmazing ( talk) 19:50, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Ptolemy (Gnostic) assigns the Gospel of John to an apostle in his letter to Flora. add that. Tuxzos22 ( talk) 23:15, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
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A fact from Authorship of the Johannine works appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 11 October 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
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In that bullet-list about arguments for authorship, there is a lot of talk about "the book", even references to bible verse. However, the heading concerns the authorship of "the books", and it is not even clear what book the article author refers to. vintermann ---
The dates given for the writings of John as well as his age at the time were greatly skewed toward the argument and left out a lot of fact. The age for the apostles was 17-26 (estimated of course, but more accurate than "in his twenties") and the writings are dated as having been written in the last years of the first century (The Catholic Encyclopedia being the most complete on this subject is my main source for dates, not theology, folks.) The age is still significant, but the placement of 102 as the minimum age for John when he wrote the Gospels is not based in any fact whatsoever. Of course, the piece itself is contrasting opinions on which neither on has a whole lot of basis in provable fact, but again, this way is more accurate. -- TheGrza 05:18, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
As for the first point on the truth of the Apostle John's claim to the authorship, the use of language seemed to have a POV, regardless of intention. I took it out of the parentheses and reworded slightly. Hope it's better. -- TheGrza 05:23, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
Check out the Catholic Encyclopedia and some other reputable sources. They match on everything except theology.
If this article is to be exclusively about the gospel of John, the title should be, as it is now "Authorship of John". If the article is to be about the Johannine works, the title should be "Authorship of the Johannine works". In addition, the article should be split into sections more , e.g.
Comments? CheeseDreams 21:20, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) If no-one comments, I will either add a disclaimer "this is about the gospel of John" or something. Or change the title and add the sectioning. Haven't decided which I prefer yet. CheeseDreams 23:34, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The supposed illiteracy of John the Apostle comes from Acts 4:13 which says "When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus." (NIV) See B.W. Johnson's Commentary on John (not an unbiased source, but we're talking about Bible Scholars here). There is nothing about illiteracy. Also, if you note the point immediately after the illiterate point, they are strikingly similar so I just merged the two. Hope this clear up the confusion. -- TheGrza 07:09, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
The only point really to take from the piece I had you look at was the fact that the only evidence of his illiteracy was Acts 4:13 which mentions no illiteracy except in the DARBY translation and the Wycliffe New Testament versions of Acts 4:13. So nowhere in the Bible in 95% of the translations does it mention something about being "unlettered and plebeian." If you are going to say that the bible insinuated that John was illiterate, first of all, do it right and find where it mentions this and put that in the article.
As to your other point that lack of schooling infers illiteracy, that's highly POV and really has no basis in fact. There are a number of other issues that could promote literacy without expanding one's knowledge, or having someone be known as a smart guy. Including reading the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh. Which they, as Jews, devout Jews who most historical accounts suggest were with John the Baptist before Jesus came around. John the Baptist known for running a completely insane and rigourously devout colony of people that wouldn't be inhabited by those who didn't know the Torah and Tanakh. So to infer from one passage the literacy of this man and to not include where you get any information is clearly POV and also clearly uninformed. I'm reverting it back to it's original state which makes the point that John was no genius and that for him to have written it probably would need something on the scale of a large deity but that no, he wasn't illiterate.--[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 18:37, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I would suggest that the difference between "without learning" and "unlettered" are pretty far apart. I don't think there is nearly enough evidence to suggest that the man was illiterate at any point, regardless of learning. And, I point out as well, that all but two of the translations take the "without learning" angle, even the non-secular and historical study bibles that are not translated by religous people but by linguists and historians for the sole purpose of studying this age, not this religion. If they all disagreed because they had manufactured the idea that John was a leopard instead of a human being that would not merit inclusion. We should be including the points that have basis in fact, as all the others do. When it is argued that John could have learned to write by the time he hit old age, this is not a reason not to include the argument because that would belong in the "for" column. This is not that case. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this specific argument against. Also, we are not removing legitimate arguments against John having written the books, we are removing arguments with no basis in fact. Your reference to Genesis is a complete non sequiter. (I understand that you are referring to the article. I still maintain that it makes no sense at all in this context.) --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 00:47, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Well, me and you will just have to disagree on the asinine leopard comment, but your point about scribes is a good one. However, literacy rates among the Jewish faithful were much higher and among the ultra-religious (and John was not just a fisherman, he had been a member of the Baptist collective with John the Baptist) it was very high. Many of the Gnostics actually came out of this tradition which is how THEY were able to write. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 01:21, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
No, smartass, it was stupid. --[[User:TheGrza|The Grza]] 01:21, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
What is literacy in the ancient age? Not many could sit down and read a letter through on a first reading, most readers had to sound it out and figure out the paragraphs and sentences. Thus, today, most would be considered functionally illiterate, even scholars. Ceasar was thought to be remarkable in that he could read a letter through at first look. However, the widespread use of graffiti shows that even the common people could read a little. So, even if John was "unschooled" in AD30 or so, he may well have been somewhat literate- and of course, he may have well become a scholar in the next several decades. Finally, unschooled or not, he certainly could have dictated the book to scribes. 162.93.199.11 ( talk) 18:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
So I'm idly reading this article, when I reach the bottom & notice that there are only three sources in the bibliography, & at least twice as many sources referred to in the article, e.g. "G.H.C. McGregor (1928)". Do I need to emphasize just how unprofessional this looks?
I'm not arguing any POV -- except that if you refer to a source, provide the referent -- name, title, publication details. If you care about this article, please fix it. Otherwise I'll let my inner grumpy nature out, & let it make a large number of edits to prove my point. -- llywrch 02:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Isn't the Letter of Ignatius to the Philippians generally considered spurious? It seems to me that its inclusion in this article is inappropriate. Perhaps a scholar can comment? Brucelange 03:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
My opinion, from reading the article, is that the article is a bit confused concerning authorship. Sometimes very strong statements are given that the historical apostle John is completely eliminated as a possible author. Then, at other times, the article gives positions iterating the possibility of John's involvement in authorship. Also, there doesn't seem to be a very coherent approach to discussing the issue, rather the treatment is more frenetic. As a result the reader is jolted into one position, then out of it, with nothing more than statements like "most scholars agree..." I think there is room for subtle improvement here. Lostcaesar 23:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
In addition, there is little to no mention at all of any recent conservative scholarly works which have thoroughly, effectively, and logically defended an Apostlic Johannine scholarship of the Gospel. Just to prove my point, there was not much effort put forth to mention well respected Biblical scholars such as Friedrich Schleiermacher, B.F Westcott, Adolf Schlatter, P-Gardener Smith, A.T. Robinson, Martin Hengel, Richard Bauckham, D.A. Caron, Leon Morris, F.F. Bruce, Herman Ridderbos, Andreas Kostenberger, and many other "modern scholars" who have vehemently defended a Johnainnie authorship of the Fourth Gospel. I will say, however, that the article did a decent job at showing support for Johannine scholarship by the early Apostolic and Patriarchial Fathers of the Church (such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Papia, Irenaeus, and etc...). My main problem is that an unaware reader would come across this article and believe it to be a fact there there are no credible schoalars who would dare to believe that, yes, the apostle John did in fact write the Gospel of John... - which is heavily supported by both external and internal evidence within the Gospel itself (As shown very thoroughly by P-Gardner Smith's work and A.T. Robinson's essay titled "The New Look on the Fourht Gospel", 1959). - just to note, I compiled the list of modern scholars who support Johnannine scholarship from Adreas Kostenberger, Encountering John (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 1999), 213. - Jesse Nelms, July 11, 2009. For more dicussion: jesse_nelms@gfwpb.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by JesseNelms ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
sections
History of critical scholarship "Many modern critics follow him in this late dating."
More recent criticism
"Many suggested further that John the Baptist himself belonged to an Essene community, and if John the Apostle had previously been a disciple of the Baptist, he would have been affected by that teaching."
Otherwise inexplicable is misleading referring to the temple courts narrative. There are other explanations, so I've reworded it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.24.30 ( talk) 09:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Modern criticism
"Many critical scholars today conclude (with the tradition) that the "disciple whom Jesus loved" was intended to be understood as John the Apostle"
"Most scholars posit a community of writers rather than a single individual that gave final form to the work"
"Most scholars date the writing of the Gospel to the last four or five years of the first century"
"However, as noted above, a few choose a much later date, typically around the time of Irenaeus - circa 180AD."
"Consequently several scholars have proposed that the Gospel was deliberately written in the late second century to explicitly oppose those heresies"
"Some scholars have even proposed that Irenaeus himself, who had a similar writing style, theology, and knowledge of literary Greek, was the author"
First epistle
"Given the similarity with the Gospel, most critical scholars assign the same authorship to the epistle that they assign to the Gospel. Most refer to a Johannine school from which the letter stemmed, possibly even from the hand of the apostle himself."
Second and third epistles
Thus most scholars assume that some personality in the circle of disciples of John was the author of these books.
LoveMonkey 03:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
-Cut from article-
As well as the recent work of Charles Hill's The Johannine Corpus in the Early Church. In which Charles Hill gives evidence that the Gospel of John was used between CE 90 and 130, the possible use of uniquely Johannine gospel material in several works which date from this period. These works and authors include Ignatius (c.107); Polycarp (c.107); Papias’ elders (c.110-120); Hierapolis' Exegesis of the Lord’s Oracles (c.120-132). Hill assesses that many historical figures did indeed reference the Gospel of John.
-End of Cut-
I've cut this because Charles Hill doesn't seem to be a notable scholar - see Appropriate sources for wikipedia, and doesn't seem to have affected the views of notable scholars. He just seems to be "some evangelical protestant seminary teacher" (that probably should make his bias clear as well). Clinkophonist 21:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
LoveMonkey 13:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Please restore your edits. LoveMonkey 13:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how you can say that a book published by OUP is inappropriate for wikipedia. It's perhaps the premier academic press in the English-speaking world. There are also, at the link, favorable blurbs about his book from mainstream journals. On what basis do you claim, Clinkophonist, that Hill is only "some evangelical protestant seminary teacher"? john k 15:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to add to this - having looked up Reformed Theological Seminary, it does seem to be a fairly dubious enterprise, with its support for Biblical inerrancy, and what not. That said, the book was still published by OUP, and that means it counts as a proper scholarly publication, whatever its author's biases may be. john k 15:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Wow, this had me ROFL! The scholar is (gasp!) an evangelical Protestant who supports (gasp!) Biblical inerrancy. Therefore he is surely biased. I can only hope that the irony was intentional. :) -- SlothMcCarty ( talk) 05:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
This text doesn't seem quite right:
The identification of some of the texts with a "John the Priest" may be seen in Eusebius, long before the sixth century. And the slow acceptence of Revelation among the Eastern Fathers is enough to show some hesitency about identifying John the Apostle as author. The same may be said of one of the epistles. My point is, even with the ref to Harris, I think the info is wrong - an oversimplification. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, granted, but its something we might want to think about. Lostcaesar 15:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
John of Patmos contains info on the authorship of Revelation. I have redirected it here and checked that all information is copied here. -- Ephilei 16:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
As I have been following the links on this page, I have noticed that the first paragraph on "History of the Use of Johannine works is blantantly plagarized from http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works_-_History_of_use_of_the_Johannine_works/id/612856 As a result, I feel it necessary to this section, and to have a new beginning to this article. This is a shameful way to use wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.184.238.231 ( talk) 19:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
another use of plagarism I have found:
Texts of the Nag Hammadi library show that many of the Gospel of John's earliest readers responded to the text "in surprising and imaginative ways." The whole sentence should be in quotations because the whole sentence is taken from Pagel's book. Now, we must also admit that Pagel's book is focused on the Gospel of Thomas. Why are we using it for comment on John? I'm pretty sure the person has not read the book, or they would have presented her views more distinctly. In what surprising and imaginative ways did the readers respond? Since this sentence has no power, I believe it should be taken out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.184.238.231 ( talk) 20:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
A recently added sentence says that John the Presbyter probably never existed. That's strange, since he claimed to write 2 John and 3 John. I added a dubious tag because this statement doesn't match my research or seem to fit the evidence. It also seems to come from a source that implies John the Apostle wrote 2 and 3 John, which doesn't square with my textbook. Maybe we could get a quote from the source (an evangelical scholar). Leadwind ( talk) 15:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Robert Fortna's work appears to be completely overlooked. See [1]. He provides evidence for two (or three) stages in the writing of the gospel, the earliest dating to before Mark. Harry.Erwin ( talk) 08:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The final paragraph of the section entitled "Modern criticism" (Most scholars date the writing of the Gospel to c. 90 ... which was important in the early "charismatic" movement known as Montanism) appears to be misplaced: it doesn't cite any modern writers or movements. Indeed it doesn't cite anything and its concerns with John's age appear to be WP:OR while the remainder recaps early criticism. Any objections if I delete this paragraph? -- Timberframe ( talk) 12:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi RomanHistorian, As a Christian, I like your editing, but many of your edits show a Christian POV. Remember at Wikipedia we must fairly reflect the scholarship in reliable sources. Keep up the good work. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I've examined the article in its current form, and I've looked at the history and discussion that led to its creation, but I think the time has come to reevaluate this article's existence.
The original thinking was, you have five canonical books attributed to "John", and you have several Johns who may or may not be identical and who may or may not be the author(s) of these books, so rather than discuss this mess on a dozen different pages, create one central page—this article—where everything is sorted out in a single coherent discussion.
But what we have is a lengthy discourse on the origin of the Gospel, a very brief treatment of the epistles, and a separate treatment of Revelation that could well stand separately. So, the benefit of discussing authorship in a single article is mostly lost. Only very briefly is the similarity in style between the Gospel and 1 John or Revelation brought forth as a point of discussion.
The more serious issue, apart from this fragmentary treatment, is that sorting out the Johns encompasses more than issues of authorship. Suppose that John the Elder wrote all the Johannine works, while John the Apostle wrote none of them. Or suppose that some second-century writer (even, perhaps, one coincidentally named John) actually composed some of these works but passed them off as the work of an earlier John, perhaps the apostle, about whom much was still remembered. What do we know about the Johns who may not have written anything? Were they identical or distinct? Whose tombs were the two tombs of John in Ephesus?
My tentative suggestion is:
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Either here or on John of Patmos, it might be worthwhile to mention that the Book of Mormon goes out of its way to claim specifically that John-the-author-of-Revelation and John-the-apostle are the same person. Quoting 1 Nephi 14:20–27:
“ | And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things ... And he shall also write concerning the end of the world. Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true ... And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel. | ” |
Now, this is not evidence of any actual connection, but it's an interesting record of the identification of the two Johns with each other in the popular imagination circa 1830, and also in a present-day religious tradition. And it would be interesting to know if any other major religions have an official position on Johannine authorship. — Quuxplusone ( talk) 02:29, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't want to start a theological debate, but Psuedo-Ignatius' Letter to the Philippians cannot be used to date the Gospel of John to before 107 AD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.114.39.140 ( talk) 18:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm no expert, but I feel that much is pretty clear.
I can't access the source, so I can't fix it myself.
Gospel | Marcion | Justin | Valentinus | Hegesip. | Ptolem. | Melito | Apollin. | Athenag. |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Synoptics | Luke | 170 | 1 | 3? | 4 | 4 | 1 | 13 |
John or Epistles | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 0 |
Thmazing ( talk) 19:50, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Ptolemy (Gnostic) assigns the Gospel of John to an apostle in his letter to Flora. add that. Tuxzos22 ( talk) 23:15, 29 July 2021 (UTC)