A fact from Authentic (show jumping horse) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 12 January 2010 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Olympics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Olympics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OlympicsWikipedia:WikiProject OlympicsTemplate:WikiProject OlympicsOlympics articles
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automatically rated by a
bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Equine, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of articles relating to horses, asses, zebras, hybrids, equine health, equine sports, etc. Please visit the
project page for details or ask questions at the barn.EquineWikipedia:WikiProject EquineTemplate:WikiProject Equineequine articles
Is such an extensive pedigree really needed? This is an actual question; I know next to nothing about equestrian breeding, so if there's any reason for it please inform me. I'm only saying from a layman's perspective it seems really unnecessary.
Angrysockhop(
and a happy new year)05:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Yes, it's quite common, horse pedigrees on registration papers often go back 4 to 6 generations at a minimum, I have a set of papers from a warmblood association that go back 8.
Montanabw(talk)04:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)reply
On a famous horse, yes I think it is needed. Check out
Go Man Go's article, it goes back even farther. Hey, thanks for the comment. I just made this article not long ago and I'm glad some people are seeing it!!! Where did you find it? Well, if you have anymore suggestions please leave them! I welcome criticism along with praise!! lol!! Thanks!!
☆dream on☆dance on☆02:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Another comment
Thanks for explaining- as I said my knowledge of equestrian breeding is limited. Another concern though, again from the perspective of a layman, is the last sentence (Of particular note...) in the section on his competitive career. Is finishing five seconds short of the allowed time particularly good? Some context as to why this jump-off is unusually notable would be helpful.
Also, I added the respective Olympic medal categories; I'm not sure what the accepted practice is regarding this but it seemed reasonable. If doing so seems inappropriate feel free to remove them, or ask me either here or on my
talk page and I'll do so myself.
Angrysockhop(
talk to me)06:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
No problem with the categories unless there is overkill, which this wasn't. Occasionally we get people who argue that the horse didn't win the medal, the person did. (My opinion is that it's the pair as a team, personally). It's tricky with these articles, we don't want to duplicate the material in
Show jumping and have to explain the nuances of the sport in every article in
Category:Show jumping horses] (LOL), but you point is well taken. Basically, jump offs are timed over a higher but shortened course, and five seconds is usually quite significant over a course that has a time allowed of only a couple of minutes. I can't find a source that has the time allowed for that particular course, however, so hard to say if it was spectacular or just really good.
Montanabw(talk)06:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Yah, Montana answered your question pretty well. I just want to add that if you dont know what a jumpoff is, it basically means that if in your first round your "clean" (you dont knock down any rails), then they do a jumpoff to see who can do it in the fastest time. So, depending on how fast the alloted jumpoff time was (I'm not sure, Montana added that part), that could be AMAZING or simply good. So, yah, I guess I wasted my time saying that, but I guess I just wanted to add the part about what a jumpoff is in case you didnt know.
Haha, sometimes trick "new" message thing tricks me too!! So dont feel bad.....thats worse for me, because I'm on my own talk page, how could I have messages!!!!
☆dream on☆dance on☆16:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Indeed. The "allowed time" is the time in which a competitor incurs no time penalties, and at the Grand Prix level (like the Olympics) is set for all rounds on the course. The jumpoff adds to this the situation where both the fences are raised (usually) the course is sometimes shortened, and the fastest time wins, if all jumping faults (fences knocked down) are equal between two or more competitors. (The use of time saves having a zillion jump offs) Usually jumpers need need a pretty good round with no major errors and to be pushing it a bit on speed to even make the time allowed, so coming in significantly under usually reflects either a very good round, or a rider who took a lot of risks to shave time on a round (cutting corners tight, etc.), either way, you need a good horse that is behaving him/herself to pull it off. I looked back at the article and the allotted time looks like it was 40 seconds and Authentic did it in just over 25, so I personally find that pretty impressive. However, because every single Grand Prix competition jumping course is different, it's hard to do statistics like they can with horse racing, so we can't really say he set a record or anything because there's no common standard.
Montanabw(talk)19:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Hi Taylor, we have it watchlisted, so no prob. As a general rule, the first paragraph is the
WP:LEAD that ought to be a summary of the rest of the article, and as long as everything in it is cited in the body of the article, it looks clunky to have cites in the lead and thus they are avoided -- the exception is if material in the lead is not mentioned or cited elsewhere -- does that make sense? Here, there IS some material not cited, so you could either cite it or expand the article even more -- whatever you want!
Montanabw(talk)22:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)reply
Requested move 6 September 2020
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved to "Authentic (show jumping horse)". Yes, I'm aware this is a supervote, but there appears to be consensus for a move of some sort, but not to the suggested disambiguator. Moving to "foaled YEAR" would be a novelty without precedence whereas the disambiguator "show jumping horse" is consistent with the only other ambiguous article of this type I could find,
Cedric (show jumping horse).
DrKay (
talk)
16:02, 9 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose for two reasons. First off, “show jumper” doesn’t indicate he is a horse. Second, while the Kentucky Derby is significant, this Authentic is just as important in the world of American equestrian sport (part of two gold medal-winning Olympic teams, which is HUGE for the USA because we don’t really dominate the sport). Also, we don’t want to fall into the trap of recentism—this Authentic has been a “big deal” for some time, just not recently, as he was retired from competing a decade ago. A simple hatnote can clarify between the two articles and no need to complicate things. Though distinguishing between the two horses by foaling date is an interesting idea, it’s actually not all that useful and makes for complicated titles.
Montanabw(talk)06:29, 11 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Maybe the name I proposed isn't perfect, but I think we need some improved disambiguation, because Authentic (horse) is a name that applies well to both horses, and the Kentucky Derby is a very big deal. Notice that the number of page views for this article jumped up from nearly zero to 700 per day on the day of the race, and the number of views for
Authentic (racehorse) is now much higher than for this horse. A lot of readers are probably landing on this page and getting rather
WP:ASTONISHed. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
04:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
I agree, something has to be added. Simple hatnotes are less desirable because they are clutter in the prime real estate of the article, and do not appear on all devices, and are a post-error fix rescuing the reader who did not want that page. Distinguishing between the two horses by foaling date is an interesting idea thanks, I don't see it being done for any other horse, although it is the norm for many humans, and for horses more than humans they are recognized by they age, they are frequently introduced by name and age. If not foaling year, then what? (I thought that horse names were supposed to be both unique and memorable, what happened here?) --
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
06:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
If folks are landing still on this page I'm amazed that a decision has been made of the disambiguation and clarity of the two horses. My opposition was about the clarity of whats in the parenthesis of the title not that something needs to be done.
Brudder Andrusha (
talk)
12:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
In addition to what @
SmokeyJoe: queried, racehorses do have the same name and need to distinguished for breeding purposes. However the method used in example by
Pedigree Online Thoroughbred Database is appending a number to the end of the name. For example the name Memories has 17 entries in the DB. I don't think this is appropriate for what we have here.
Brudder Andrusha (
talk)
12:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The disambiguation between the horses of the same name should something similar to what is used in other name equivalents. For instance footballers of the same name, year of birth is used as the distinct qualifier.
Brudder Andrusha (
talk)
12:56, 11 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Putting mysef in the place of a reader coming here to find information about, e.g., the Kentucky Derby winner, if they type "Authentic" into the search box they will get to the dab page where they can pick the right one. If they go to Authentic (horse), the hatnote leads them to the racehorse. So I don't see any great need to move the current article. --
Bcp67 (
talk)
09:47, 14 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Support a move somewhere given that the other has 21,500 compared to only 2,550 for this one[
[1]]. No opinion on where to move to but it should be moved as partial disambiguation that clearly doesn't qualify for a PDAB exception. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
09:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
We rarely partly disambiguate even though we have now has consensus to do so in limited cases, the consensus is that the standards are tougher than base names and since the other gets more views this is right out of question. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
09:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)reply
CommentI could live with
Authentic (horse, foaled xxxx) construction, clarifying at the dab page what each accomplished otherwise we could get into a real mess like whether we define the jumping Authentic as an Olympic competitor (true), a show jumper (true) or as a Dutch Warmblood (also true). Similarly, “racehorse” is generally not an ideal dab, as there could be a Quarter Horse racehorse, or a Standardbred racehorse... you get the idea.
Montanabw(talk)03:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A fact from Authentic (show jumping horse) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 12 January 2010 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Olympics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Olympics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OlympicsWikipedia:WikiProject OlympicsTemplate:WikiProject OlympicsOlympics articles
This article has been
automatically rated by a
bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Equine, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of articles relating to horses, asses, zebras, hybrids, equine health, equine sports, etc. Please visit the
project page for details or ask questions at the barn.EquineWikipedia:WikiProject EquineTemplate:WikiProject Equineequine articles
Is such an extensive pedigree really needed? This is an actual question; I know next to nothing about equestrian breeding, so if there's any reason for it please inform me. I'm only saying from a layman's perspective it seems really unnecessary.
Angrysockhop(
and a happy new year)05:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Yes, it's quite common, horse pedigrees on registration papers often go back 4 to 6 generations at a minimum, I have a set of papers from a warmblood association that go back 8.
Montanabw(talk)04:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)reply
On a famous horse, yes I think it is needed. Check out
Go Man Go's article, it goes back even farther. Hey, thanks for the comment. I just made this article not long ago and I'm glad some people are seeing it!!! Where did you find it? Well, if you have anymore suggestions please leave them! I welcome criticism along with praise!! lol!! Thanks!!
☆dream on☆dance on☆02:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Another comment
Thanks for explaining- as I said my knowledge of equestrian breeding is limited. Another concern though, again from the perspective of a layman, is the last sentence (Of particular note...) in the section on his competitive career. Is finishing five seconds short of the allowed time particularly good? Some context as to why this jump-off is unusually notable would be helpful.
Also, I added the respective Olympic medal categories; I'm not sure what the accepted practice is regarding this but it seemed reasonable. If doing so seems inappropriate feel free to remove them, or ask me either here or on my
talk page and I'll do so myself.
Angrysockhop(
talk to me)06:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
No problem with the categories unless there is overkill, which this wasn't. Occasionally we get people who argue that the horse didn't win the medal, the person did. (My opinion is that it's the pair as a team, personally). It's tricky with these articles, we don't want to duplicate the material in
Show jumping and have to explain the nuances of the sport in every article in
Category:Show jumping horses] (LOL), but you point is well taken. Basically, jump offs are timed over a higher but shortened course, and five seconds is usually quite significant over a course that has a time allowed of only a couple of minutes. I can't find a source that has the time allowed for that particular course, however, so hard to say if it was spectacular or just really good.
Montanabw(talk)06:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Yah, Montana answered your question pretty well. I just want to add that if you dont know what a jumpoff is, it basically means that if in your first round your "clean" (you dont knock down any rails), then they do a jumpoff to see who can do it in the fastest time. So, depending on how fast the alloted jumpoff time was (I'm not sure, Montana added that part), that could be AMAZING or simply good. So, yah, I guess I wasted my time saying that, but I guess I just wanted to add the part about what a jumpoff is in case you didnt know.
Haha, sometimes trick "new" message thing tricks me too!! So dont feel bad.....thats worse for me, because I'm on my own talk page, how could I have messages!!!!
☆dream on☆dance on☆16:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Indeed. The "allowed time" is the time in which a competitor incurs no time penalties, and at the Grand Prix level (like the Olympics) is set for all rounds on the course. The jumpoff adds to this the situation where both the fences are raised (usually) the course is sometimes shortened, and the fastest time wins, if all jumping faults (fences knocked down) are equal between two or more competitors. (The use of time saves having a zillion jump offs) Usually jumpers need need a pretty good round with no major errors and to be pushing it a bit on speed to even make the time allowed, so coming in significantly under usually reflects either a very good round, or a rider who took a lot of risks to shave time on a round (cutting corners tight, etc.), either way, you need a good horse that is behaving him/herself to pull it off. I looked back at the article and the allotted time looks like it was 40 seconds and Authentic did it in just over 25, so I personally find that pretty impressive. However, because every single Grand Prix competition jumping course is different, it's hard to do statistics like they can with horse racing, so we can't really say he set a record or anything because there's no common standard.
Montanabw(talk)19:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Hi Taylor, we have it watchlisted, so no prob. As a general rule, the first paragraph is the
WP:LEAD that ought to be a summary of the rest of the article, and as long as everything in it is cited in the body of the article, it looks clunky to have cites in the lead and thus they are avoided -- the exception is if material in the lead is not mentioned or cited elsewhere -- does that make sense? Here, there IS some material not cited, so you could either cite it or expand the article even more -- whatever you want!
Montanabw(talk)22:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)reply
Requested move 6 September 2020
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved to "Authentic (show jumping horse)". Yes, I'm aware this is a supervote, but there appears to be consensus for a move of some sort, but not to the suggested disambiguator. Moving to "foaled YEAR" would be a novelty without precedence whereas the disambiguator "show jumping horse" is consistent with the only other ambiguous article of this type I could find,
Cedric (show jumping horse).
DrKay (
talk)
16:02, 9 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose for two reasons. First off, “show jumper” doesn’t indicate he is a horse. Second, while the Kentucky Derby is significant, this Authentic is just as important in the world of American equestrian sport (part of two gold medal-winning Olympic teams, which is HUGE for the USA because we don’t really dominate the sport). Also, we don’t want to fall into the trap of recentism—this Authentic has been a “big deal” for some time, just not recently, as he was retired from competing a decade ago. A simple hatnote can clarify between the two articles and no need to complicate things. Though distinguishing between the two horses by foaling date is an interesting idea, it’s actually not all that useful and makes for complicated titles.
Montanabw(talk)06:29, 11 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Maybe the name I proposed isn't perfect, but I think we need some improved disambiguation, because Authentic (horse) is a name that applies well to both horses, and the Kentucky Derby is a very big deal. Notice that the number of page views for this article jumped up from nearly zero to 700 per day on the day of the race, and the number of views for
Authentic (racehorse) is now much higher than for this horse. A lot of readers are probably landing on this page and getting rather
WP:ASTONISHed. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
04:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
I agree, something has to be added. Simple hatnotes are less desirable because they are clutter in the prime real estate of the article, and do not appear on all devices, and are a post-error fix rescuing the reader who did not want that page. Distinguishing between the two horses by foaling date is an interesting idea thanks, I don't see it being done for any other horse, although it is the norm for many humans, and for horses more than humans they are recognized by they age, they are frequently introduced by name and age. If not foaling year, then what? (I thought that horse names were supposed to be both unique and memorable, what happened here?) --
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
06:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
If folks are landing still on this page I'm amazed that a decision has been made of the disambiguation and clarity of the two horses. My opposition was about the clarity of whats in the parenthesis of the title not that something needs to be done.
Brudder Andrusha (
talk)
12:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
In addition to what @
SmokeyJoe: queried, racehorses do have the same name and need to distinguished for breeding purposes. However the method used in example by
Pedigree Online Thoroughbred Database is appending a number to the end of the name. For example the name Memories has 17 entries in the DB. I don't think this is appropriate for what we have here.
Brudder Andrusha (
talk)
12:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The disambiguation between the horses of the same name should something similar to what is used in other name equivalents. For instance footballers of the same name, year of birth is used as the distinct qualifier.
Brudder Andrusha (
talk)
12:56, 11 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Putting mysef in the place of a reader coming here to find information about, e.g., the Kentucky Derby winner, if they type "Authentic" into the search box they will get to the dab page where they can pick the right one. If they go to Authentic (horse), the hatnote leads them to the racehorse. So I don't see any great need to move the current article. --
Bcp67 (
talk)
09:47, 14 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Support a move somewhere given that the other has 21,500 compared to only 2,550 for this one[
[1]]. No opinion on where to move to but it should be moved as partial disambiguation that clearly doesn't qualify for a PDAB exception. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
09:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC)reply
We rarely partly disambiguate even though we have now has consensus to do so in limited cases, the consensus is that the standards are tougher than base names and since the other gets more views this is right out of question. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
09:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)reply
CommentI could live with
Authentic (horse, foaled xxxx) construction, clarifying at the dab page what each accomplished otherwise we could get into a real mess like whether we define the jumping Authentic as an Olympic competitor (true), a show jumper (true) or as a Dutch Warmblood (also true). Similarly, “racehorse” is generally not an ideal dab, as there could be a Quarter Horse racehorse, or a Standardbred racehorse... you get the idea.
Montanabw(talk)03:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.