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Burns wrote the last lines of verse and chorus as "And auld lang syne" and "For auld lang syne" - but as we all know the extra words "the sake of" and "the days of" are typically added when a group of inebriates (even Scots ones) are singing it. They are of course "incorrect", in so far as we "should" be singing Burns' original words - although as it is after all a folk song (albeit one with a literary background and known "authorship") then the "correct" way is neither more nor less that the way it is actually being sung by a particular singer at a particular moment, surely?
ANYWAY - the idea that the extra words are tautology, or based on an incorrect idea of what the words actually mean is definitely not correct. "Syne" means "since", not "sake" - and "For the sake of auld lang syne" makes perfectly good sense, and incidentally is good Scots. The only reason for not singing it that way is that it's not what Burns wrote (sufficient reason perhaps, but getting the typical New Year's crowd to agree might be hard).
But if the extra words were NOT added by some dopey Sassenach who had no idea what "auld lang syne" meant anyway, where do they come from? In setting words to a tune we in fact quite often slur some of the words over several notes - but in folk song this is relatively rare, and mostly we expect each word (or each syllable - in folk song usually the same thing) to have its own note. It is a discernible part of the "folk process" that melodies sometime lose notes and lyrics gain words, in an unconscious effort to get a song to comply with the "one word one note" pattern. In this sense any group of singers (even Scots) especially "merry" ones, are liable to trip a little over the need to sing "for", "auld" and "lang" over two notes - and add the extra words their unsophisticated ears tell them really should be there.
I honestly don't thing we need look further than this for the source of those "extra words"!! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I think the edit to this effect might be just a "tease" to prove how unmusical most Wiki editors are? Just for the record, it IS pentatonic, of course. At least the melody itself is. Set to conventional four-part harmony some of the other parts may well use "extra-pentatonic" notes (IVs and VIIs). This happens if you use diatonic harmony on a pentatonic melody - but it doesn't alter the nature of the melody itself. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 14:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
We seem to be getting an escalation of "uses" of very minor notability or interest. Why not replace all but a small core of these with a general summary (something like - "the song is nowadays used in many and varied "farewell" settings - ranging from funerals and graduations to retail stores' announcement of their closing times - in both English speaking and non-English speaking countries). -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 09:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
DONE!! A good deal of redundant, non-notable, and repeated matter had crept into the article through multiple edits - I have tried to tidy it up a bit. The article still needs a lot more references! I have not attempted to tag the places where these should go. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 11:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I have never commented on an article before and this is rather minor but it seems wrong to say that Auld Lang Syne" and "America The Beautiful", chosen to be performed together at the Drum Corps International Competition have "coincidentally" got the same meter. I am sure there are several songs with the same meter, but to say that it is coincidence that songs of the same meter were picked by a group of drummers - who I suspect are fairly aware of meter - is just silly. It was probably picked because it had the same meter, not "coincidentally". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.25.41 ( talk) 21:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Burns didn't write it, he wrote it down, according to the latest QI —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.156.213 ( talk) 05:23, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Burns always claimed the words to be those of a folk song - and at least for the first verse and chorus this is generally accepted and has always been clearly pointed out in this article. The current "new discovery" of the fact does not need covering by changes in the article (please). -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:04, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The origins of the poem are unclear, but it is not disputed that Burns 'borrowed' words and phrases from older sources, as was common practice throughout most of history. What is clear, however, is that what we now call "Auld Lang Syne" was written by Burns. There is no need to confuse its origins by changing the lead when this is all discussed in the article, particularly without any new solid cite. QI, and the great Stephen Fry, doesn't count as one. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 01:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Here's the deal: The other day someone asked me what the words to that song meant, because the song didn't make any sense. I looked up the wikipedia article and it still didn't make any sense. Then I remembered how people used to translate it, "For old times' sake". At that point, it made sense. No, it's not a "literal" translation, but it's how it's used in the song, and makes the most sense - a poetic translation, and if you read the reference you'll see the same argument being made. ← Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed a cite to this page here; http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2008/12/30143236, for the simple reason that what it said makes no sense. It states;
the song's title literally means 'old long since', but is the equivalent of such sayings as 'for old time's sake'
In which case, what it is suggesting is that Burns wrote in the chorus; "For for old time's sake". (Two "for"s). Similarly, James Watson's version says "On Old long syne my Jo", which according to this translation would mean "On for old time's sake", which is equally meaningless.
The simple fact is that The poem's title is "Auld Lang Syne", and the first line of the chorus is "For auld lang syne". So any translation of the title cannot include "for", unless we think that Burns and Watson meant to say it twice. I can't image why they would. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 14:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Syne does not mean 'sake', and neither does it mean 'since' really (although undoubtably of the same root). In speech it means 'then'. E.G "I hae thocht o that foolish licht/ Ever sin' syne." (I have thought of that foolish light/ ever since then) to quote Hugh MacDiarmid. The "literal" translation then would be "old long then" which obviously doesn't really make sense in English, but since it is idiomatic and not even in English, this shouldn't cause any problems. AGW —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.71.141 ( talk) 14:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
QI 7x05 Groovy says this was not written by burns... 86.68.122.40 ( talk) 22:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
... the reference to Friedrich Silcher, a German songwriter of those times, and his translation of this wonderful song. Thanks for removing the whole 'Trivia' chapter, thanks probably sometimes for removing the whole article about this wonderful song Auld Lang Syne - thanks to Deletionmaster General, the most unwanted person in universe. And don't ask me to support your Deletioncypedia with money, or with articles (which obviously might be removed!)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.106.95.168 ( talk) 23:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks as well, Deletion Master of Deletioncyclopedia, for removing the lyrics of Hotaru no hikari (fortunately it was reposted here in the discussions), the notable transforming of this song into the Japanese world. Thanks for all of these deletings, and thanks in advance for probably having to await the deletion of this article as well...
Regardless of our disgruntled friend above - some more lines will have to go soon - having said (as we do) that it has been translated into many other languages, for example, we don't really need to list every version in every other language. Having mentioned (as we have) that it has become a common custom all over the world to sing it at graduation, passing out and "end of function" ceremonies, as well as at the new year - there seems to be little value in mentioning this over and over for every country concerned.
This is an article about Auld Lang Syne - not a "we sing(ed) it too" competition. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
This is great - and in theory there should be no copyright problems? I mean whether we count it as written by Burns or as a folk song it's still in the common domain, isn't it?
Alas, I fear that a page of sheet music pulled straight from a book like this is almost certainly a great big copyright NO NO. The harmonisation, transcription, text (erroneous anyway) apart from the (wrong) lyrics, are all someone's "intellectual property".
Copyright is something that NEEDS to be addressed every time we upload any kind of graphic file.
Having said all this - any musically literate person with a steady hand or suitable computer software want to do something similar and make a present of it to Wikipedia? Probably best to keep to a single melody line in case someone has the rights to a particular harmonisation though. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 10:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Denning97 ( talk) 03:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)the phrase Auld Lang Syne - could that not simply be an influence from the German (Anglo-Saxon) "alte lange Zeit" = a long time ago? The meaning would be the same as everything I have read, but the derivation would be more logical.
Someone seriously suggesting that the Welsh and English (and for that matter the Irish) haven't spread the use of Auld Lang Syne as much (or nearly as much) as the Scots? It's a British (and for that matter, nowadays a world wide) custom, and has been for many years. One would have thought Scots nationalists would be proud of that! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
The two are not mutually exclusive. It certainly isn't "innacurate" to call song lyrics "poems" - especially when they are written by recognised poets, and (even more especially) when only a stanza or two of the poem concerned is ever actually sung!!
When you read it it's a poem - if you sing it it's a song - in various contexts it's called one or the other throughout the article - no need to fiddle with this, I feel - far from being innacurate or inappropriate it's natural, and useful. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The tune commonly used for Auld Lang Syne today is a traditional hymn called Plenary. As a hymn it has more often been used with these heartening words:
Hark! from the tomb, a doleful sound,
Mine ears attend the cry,
Ye living men, come view the ground
Where you must shortly lie.
(chorus)
Where you must shortly lie,
Where you must shortly lie,
Ye living men, come view the ground
Where you must shortly lie.
Princes, this clay must be your bed,
In spite of all your tow'rs;
The tall, the wise, the rev'rend head,
Must lie as low as ours.
(chorus) Must lie as low as ours, etc.
Great God! Is this our certain doom?
And are we still secure?
Still walking downward to the tomb,
And yet prepared no more.
(chorus) And yet prepared no more, etc.
I just wanted to brighten your day! 75.63.4.101 ( talk) 14:50, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Yup, good call. It works indeed. The old songs were sort of "interchangeable" with lyrics based on meter. Both of these tunes happen to be what is called "common meter" so the lyrics can be switched. If you look in an old hymnal (or any other traditional songbook, for that matter) you'll see notations like "CM" (common meter) "SM" (short meter), "LM" (long meter), "8s 7s" (8 syllables alternating with 7 syllables), etc. These notations are telling you the meter, so that if you happen to be leading the singing you'll know you can sing the tune on page 117 with the words to the song on page 324, etc. In R. Burns' day and up to the mid-19th cent, songs were not typically even printed with tunes, just the words, so people had to use whatever tune they knew that fit. It goes back a lot further than that, even. See Bay Psalme Book, e.g.
So I feel doubtful Burns actually "picked a tune" to go with his poetry, (unless he published it in song form during his lifetime.) He must have known people would sing it with whatever tune worked! Even Amazing Grace did not become firmly associated with the tune we now think of, called New Britain, until pretty late in the game, I think late 19th cent. It can be, and still is, sung with many other tunes. 75.63.4.101 ( talk) 15:15, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
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Of course, Beethoven did, perhaps, the first arrangement of the song but there is another story (a long one) that places him as the author of the music. This isn't as "out there" as it seems and, though a well known story amongst musicians for a very long time, I have never found a reference in a book about it. As the lyricist and the famous composer did know each other and had worked together on arrangements and even fabrications of "traditional" Scotish melodies, the story is... maybe true. Gingermint ( talk) 01:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
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My wife, who is from China, has informed me that this song is not actually seen as a sad song but a song commemorating a long lasting or everlasting friendship. This article states that the song is sad and notably signifies the end of a relationship in China, which is not necessarily true (possibly for the younger generation). I would be keen on updating the entry to be more correct from my Wifes point of view but thought I would open a discussion on it first. Comments? Justacec ( talk) 03:34, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
30 Seconds Over Tokyo (1944) - sung at a party before airmen are deployed to the naval carriers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.135.100.20 ( talk) 05:58, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
The article says "In Taiwan, the tune is generally associated with funeral services". and then "It is also sung at graduation ceremonies". I would say it is just the other way around. If you talk to people in Taiwan about the song, first thing that comes to their mind are the graduation ceremonies.
Sorry I am not familiar with using/editing etc. Wikipedia yet, so I might not do this correctly here. Ilon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.218.150.126 ( talk) 04:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
Several of these simply stated that ALS was sung in the country concerned for New Year, Farewells, Funerals, Graduations, Boy Scouts functions etc.
All very fine - but unless there is something distinctive about the use of ALS in a particular country (like, say, it was once used for the National Anthem, or is the tune for the song of a popular football team) this was never really notable. In fact ALS is used almost everywhere for these things - and they are detailed above.
The problem was that once you add the name of one country (province, state, city, village, school etc.) and (no doubt quite accurately) attach the "common" uses of the tune - then you have no real comeback for anyone who wants to add to the list. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 11:03, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I have "been bold" and taken an axe to some of the we sung it too lists. The only one I have left untouched (as yet anyway) is the films list. Would a film buff like to eliminate all not-particularly-notable films, as well as those where the use of ALS is extremely peripheral and/or confined to the opening or closing credits? Otherwise I'll have a shot at it sometime soon. The point is very simply that this article needs to be (at least in the main) about its subject. Lots of what we either have, or will, delete might be a very important part of another article, just not this one. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:16, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I have basically deleted this. Reasons as discussed above - but this list in particular added nothing whatever to the article, and threatened to continue to grow expotentially into the future. Someone might like to resurrect it as a "list" type article in its own right? Or to a general article about films, or film music? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:53, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
I have several questions about this one - which for a while now has been cluttered to the point of illegibility:
Are we justified in including:
Anyway - depending on feedback, or lack of it, on this one I hereby signal my intent to:
-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Somebody from 93.91.49.11 deleted the entire "Scots pronunciation guide" column in the lyrics section without stating any reason. If this was vandalism, is there a reason why it was not restored? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.13.69 ( talk) 02:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I was surprised to see this said here because I thought it was fairly well known that Burns collected this old song and wrote it down but did not write it himself. See http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/online/AuldLangSyne/zoom.asp?id=9 treesmill ( talk) 07:22, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I was probably a little hard on the good faith edit I just reverted, that claimed a piece of perfectly good English prose that had been there for many years was "ungrammatical". For what it is worth, if they'd claimed their version was a little clearer (although even that would have been questionable) - it would probably have been allowed to stand. Anyway - sorry if I was grumpy. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:33, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Deeply shocked and upset that one of the most consulted articles on wikipedia could have been so cunningly vandalised, and NOBODY (mea culpa too) saw it for four hours. Or was it good faith after all? PLEASE what wiki does NOT need is "editors" who barge in on very "high traffic" articles with really drastic revisions. PLEASE first actually read the article, then bring up your queries on this talk page, and then wait for a day or so before barging in. It really is VERY unlikely that we've got something quite THAT wrong. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:02, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
The addition to the article about a song called Jipy Jay has been removed because it appears to be original research, which Wikipedia does not permit, and is uncited. Before adding it again could a source be provided that connects it to Auld Lang Syne, either by explaining it is the same song, a translation, or bears musical similarities. Otherwise it appears that the connection between the two is just someone's personal opinion. Thanks. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
About as necessary as for citing that it is used at New Year, surely? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Sure this is a bit problematic - depends on where in Scotland you are, and how you interpret the very makeshift "phonetic" spelling anyway. But it has survived the scrutiny of many Scottish editors now, so it can't be all that wrong! Raise in talk first, at least. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
A recent addition to the lead claims that ALS has been translated in 40 languages. But it is sourced to a source of very dubious verifiability that makes no attempt to expand on the claim. The section on In_non-English-speaking_countries|other usage also doesn't verify this. The lead is supposed to summarise the article, not introduce facts not discussed in the article. If it is to be used, can it be obtained from a better source and mentioned in this section. Thanks. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 13:06, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
With a good deal of regret - the following (obviously good faith) addition has been excised:
The fact is that ALS is used in the music soundtrack of literally hundreds of films, and at one stage we were accumulating many more or less "notable" examples of this. The end result was that quite a lengthy section (almost a "list" type article in its own right) was devoted to the use of ALS in films. Attempts to reduce this to a "highly notable" core of representative examples had to be abandonned, and it was decided by a consensus of editors that we should cut the list altogether. The problem is that statements like "The most notable (moving, appropriate, beautifully performed, characteristic etc. etc.)" really remain unverifiable opinion, however "reliable" the source.-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:59, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Almost everywhere in the world, it seems, Auld Lang Syne is used for New Year, graduations, farewells, especially by the Boy Scout movement. Having said this, as we do near the top of the article, there is no benefit (at least in this article) of repeating these "standard" uses over and over and over again, for every country or region on Earth. The "uses" we have left that ARE attached to some country all have something at least mildly different and interesting about them. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 12:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
An English pronunciation should be added as the article's in English and the only pronunciation given is the Scots one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meemo16 ( talk • contribs) 04:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:John Masey Wright - John Rogers - Robert Burns - Auld Lang Syne.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 31, 2014. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2014-12-31. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 11:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
The reason I changed the minimalist translation from "auld lang syne" to "long, long ago" was just that I felt that those three words are the part of the poem which standard English speakers have most difficulty with. I am just as happy for it to be "days of long ago" as I am for it to be "long, long ago" since either of these puts over the idiomatic meaning and they both scan. I just felt that leaving the "auld lang syne" phrase in the translation was defeating the basic purpose of the translation. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:19, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
An interesting but uncited edit is quoted in full below. There have been a string of edits of similar import put in lately - various editors have reverted them.
This seems extremely unlikely - the only cite we have seen was to an Italian Newspaper, which is on the face of it certainly NOT a reliable source. Please note that Wikipedia is NOT incestuous, and that another article, even on another edition of Wiki is NOT a source. Surprising "new" facts do sometimes come up - but Wikipedia is not the place for them to make their first appearance. This ought to be common sense. Incidentally ALS has never been in 3/4 time, just hum it and count the beats for heaven's sake. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello, it is not true that my update is silly season" practical joke. My updated is with source, not only the Italian newspaper (as you wrote). http://www.marisalivet.com/blog---the-soap-bubbles-vendor/lets-sing-a-carol-along is not a newpaper. In any case, there is written in many books and scores that Davide Rizzio is composer of "Valzer delle candele": for example in Piemonte magico e misterioso by Renzo Rossotti (edited by Newton Compton, Rome). Here http://robertobrumat.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/italiano-il-valzer-delle-candele/ you can read all history about Davide Rizzio. If you do not know a thing, this doesn't mean that it is false.-- Vito.Vita ( talk) 12:26, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Whether one considers Scots to be a dialect of "Common British" or a language in its own right rather distantly related to that degenerate Sassenach version (what's it called?) depends very largely on one's (legitimate) POV - perhaps it is best in an article like this to remain as neutral as possible, and not to plump too definitely for one or the other? (this is related to the minor edit I have just made in the lead. - Soundofmusicals ( talk) 21:46, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Several of these simply stated that ALS was sung in the country concerned for New Year, Farewells, Funerals, Graduations, Boy Scouts functions etc.
All very fine - but unless there is something distinctive about the use of ALS in a particular country (like, say, it was once used for the National Anthem, or is the tune for the song of a popular football team) this was never really notable. In fact ALS is used almost everywhere for these things - and they are detailed above.
The problem was that once you add the name of one country (province, state, city, village, school etc.) and (no doubt quite accurately) attach the "common" uses of the tune - then you have no real comeback for anyone who wants to add to the list.
This old post (from 2012) remains very apposite, worth bringing back from the archives in fact - we were talking about the use of Auld Lang Syne in various countries, and just how to cope with the fact that its use in certain "standard" contexts was, well, "standard". There are about 200 countries in the world and about 190 of these use the song (more or less frequently) for New Year, Funerals, Graduations and Boy Scout functions...
So no, please - we don't need to start down this road again. Let's keep the article on the subject of the song. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:57, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
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Just for the record - the origin etc. of the tune is already covered, in well referenced text - its use for the tunes of several hymns (not to mention many other things - also covered in the article) came after. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Just removed the "improve cites" tag on this section - not realising how many "live" performances still uncited - but perhaps most (all?) of these actually need weeding rather than citing. Does a cite for a specific album have a built-in (implied) cite to the album concerned? The value of this sort of thing is actually highly debatable anyway. One might check that each album/performance at least has its own article. May do this myself later - otherwise... - Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:18, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
The indication that the word "auld" should, in Scots Pronunciation, sound like "ald", is mistaken. I can cite no textual authority, however as a Scots speaker (albeit Urban West of Scotland) I can definitely attest that a Scots speaker would pronounce this word to rhyme with "bald", and not in any other way. Nuttyskin ( talk) 21:03, 27 December 2016 (UTC) Nuttyskin ( talk) 21:03, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
This very obviously needs to be specifically mentioned - non-Scots sometimes become quite stubborn in their insistence on "Z" rather than the correct "S". Until most people can (and do) read IPA this is important and should not be attacked. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:00, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
A VERY old edit was re-raised after several years - here's how we dealt with it then...
The addition to the article about a song called Jipy Jay has been removed because it appears to be original research, which Wikipedia does not permit, and is uncited. Before adding it again could a source be provided that connects it to Auld Lang Syne, either by explaining it is the same song, a translation, or bears musical similarities. Otherwise it appears that the connection between the two is just someone's personal opinion. Thanks. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Some dear little American person thinks Scots language is racist. Oh dear. Americans should talk! As Professor Higgins famously remarked "In America they haven't used it [proper English] for years". Of course everyone knows that true "proper English" is only spoken by well-educated Australians born earlier than (say) 1940 or thereabouts - and is therefore dying out. Sad, but inevitable. Fortunately the badness of all English spoken outside my own nationality and age group is normally masked by our use of conventional spelling. Scots spelling, on the other hand, is "conventional" on its own terms rather than "phonetic" - we didn't make it up to poke fun at ignorant Scots (honest). Scots poets like Burns wrote his Scots verse using Scots spelling and his (standard) English verse, which he would have pronounced with a strong Scottish accent of course, using standard spelling. This means that we assume that the English spoken in Alabama and Tasmania are the Same Language - while Scots is a Variant Dialect. (This post is satire) and composed in a holiday spirit - please do not take it seriously. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 21:54, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
A section is not "nul" because it doe not contain a list, or even if a list it used to contain has been deleted. The need to point this out seems very silly. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:41, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
It occurs in many countries - in fact for many years it has been as closely associated with the Scouting movement - almost as pervasively as its association with the new year. This is in itself far more notable than much other very peripheral stuff in the article. In fact it warrants a mention in the lead. This has been the case for years and is in effect a long standing consensus - please do bot remove it without arguing a new consensus here. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:54, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
A good deal of the (very extensive) archive of "talk" on this topic concerns confusion, indeed stubborn controversy, over what the title means. The fact that it is simple Scots for "long ago", or even "once upon a time" still needs (alas) all the help it can get if it not to become mired in strange and fanciful speculation. In fact clarification of the meaning of "auld lang syne" is quite probably the most important reason this article is consulted. The little note referring to the works of Matthew Fitt has remained unchallenged now for a good many years - and why not? - is totally relevant to this point. It effectively has its own "built in" verification - but otherwise a reference should not be difficult to find, if only a specific citation to one of Mr. Fitt's stories? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
The article says, "The tune to which "Auld Lang Syne" is commonly sung is a pentatonic Scots folk melody." While the melody can be played as entirely pentonic, it often isn't. Commonly, the third note (first syllable of "acquaintance") is lowered half a step to the leading tone. (A minor point, perhaps.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thinkatron ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
But surely - that would be Jan 2nd? The date changes at 24:00 (midnight). Isn't that the point? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:06, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Just quietly, isn't the very idea slightly silly? The word (whether in Scots, Scouse, Cockney and even Broad Australian) can in different contexts have different meanings and connotations, of course, but surely they are pretty much the same set of meanings, regardless of dialect? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:17, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Burns' poems very often draw on folk song lyrics (to varying degrees) but it is more helpful, as a rule, as well as more in accordance with the wider consensus in this particular case, to call it a "poem" in the first instance, and then go to its possible (probable?) folk derivation after. We do not have the "old song" referred to by Burns himself - although we can reasonably infer its existence because of "similar" poems that resemble Burns', and look as if they all draw on a common source. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 11:40, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
As sometimes happens at this time of the year - several persons were moved to edit the article in various ways! Regular editors (including me!) made various less than perfectly co-ordinated attempts to keep things on track. I have endeavoured to restore "last years's edition", with any really useful changes I could discern in yesterday's wild flurry. --- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:02, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
It's a version of the song that made Top 10 on two major charts. This fact should be at least mentioned somewhere in the article. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 01:27, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Especially in view of the above - how about a new 'lists" article about particular "covers" of this song? Or even a category "Musicians and others who have sung ALS". Personally I am very strongly against this - among other things because almost everyone and his dog would rate a spot on it - but it would be MUCH better than burdening this article with such a list!! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
defines very briefly what the article is about. This one is about the poem by Burns - who in this case (as very commonly for him) was using an old folk song as the basis for his poem. The actual words of the old folk song have in effect been lost, so the best we can do is to mention its (probable) existence in our 'history" section - although we do include a stanza or two from another literary reworking for comparison. Sorry it seems to mention this yet again, but a lot of useful matter has been (necessarily) archived. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:15, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
It is suggested that the melody for Auld Lang Syne may have been taken from the strathspey The Miller's Daughter also known as "The Miller's Wedding" -- and then several reasons are given why this is unlikely.
I find it very unlikely indeed, as the melody from this strathspey resembles neither the popular modern version of Auld Lang Syne, nor the original melody which Burns is said to have preferred. The only similarity between the two tunes is a superficial rhythmic coincidence:
Indeed, other than on Wikipedia, I've never heard The Miller's Daughter suggested as the source.
I have, however, frequently heard Sir Alexander Don's Strathspey suggested as the source for the more contemporary melody, and the resemblance here is far more than superficial -- the melodic and harmonic shapes coincide 90% or more:
This section of the article needs to be re-written; it is in error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 ( talk) 19:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
This was recently added by a thoughtful editor - who obviously (and commendably) took the necessity for referencing very seriously:
The problem is that ALS is sung in so very many countries that we need a criterion for selecting which of these we specifically mention - or we'd end up with an immense (and immensely boring, repetitive and unhelpful) list of the nations of the earth - remarking that they all use this song (to a greater or lesser extent and in a myriad of translations) - for things like the New Year, Scout jamborees etc etc. Where something is really pretty universal - listing particular cases adds bulk but no real information. It is NOT clear from the above, regardless of the quality of its referencing, that the use by the German (and French) Scouts is particularly unusual in an international context. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:22, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
References
I am not sure if there is anything notable about it, but there are two features that strike me about the German (scouts') version:
PJTraill ( talk) 00:24, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
The song "You're a Grand Old Flag" references this song in its lyrics, and the melody is only nearly identical; that is, in Auld Lang Syne the first syllable of the word "forgot" is an F; in "You're a Grand Old Flag" it's an F sharp. Any corrections?? Georgia guy ( talk) 14:43, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
This is not really a full translation into standard English, of course - just a little gloss to help a "mere Sassenach" make sense of the Scots. Since the phrase "auld lang syne" has already been fully (too fully?) explained earlier in the article, and since it is in any case is VERY familiar (to understate the case rather) it is left in the original language. As for translating "acquaintance" as "aquaintances" - this is as best rather "quaint" and at best adds nothing to the reader's understanding. "Old aquaintance" is a common (standard) English phrase for "old friends", even if only from the influence of this song. Is there a case for omitting this column from the table, perhaps clarifying the "different" Scots words with notes instead? On the whole I think it does at least as well exactly as it is, but by all means let's discuss this if you think it worthwhile. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:15, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Every year this article is attacked by folk that know it all - this time someone who wanted to anglicise the original Scots (as if an English translation wasn't enough) - and yet another attempt to introduce the French use of the song (which is quite lovely, I'm sure - but pretty well exactly the same as the rest of the world). Plus the other little bit of spleen on this talk page - not at all sure what they think they're on about - they probably don't either. We'll leave it in - but it has to go down the end, of course, like every other new comment.. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:08, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
That's what it means word for word - but it isn't exactly English. So we give three examples of more "idiomatic" renderings of the phrase. Perhaps our editor was confusing "idiomatic" with "colloquial"? Look up both words in any dictionary. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi - this is a level 4, C-class article and it's in a bit of a state. This isn't helped by what appears to be WP:OWN and the regular reversion of attempts to improve it. We need to start somewhere, so let's address this:
The song begins by posing a rhetorical question: Is it right that old times be forgotten? Alternatively, "Should" may be understood to mean "in the event that"(expressing the conditional mood) referring to a possible event or situation. The answer is generally interpreted as a call to remember long-standing friendships. Thomson's Select Songs of Scotland was published in 1799 in which the second verse about greeting and toasting was moved to its present position at the end.
This reads very badly and we should rewrite it completely. NEDOCHAN ( talk) 11:37, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
We gave up on these sections when they got too big - Is it time to start a new article? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 10:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
There is a stub section in the existing article where "notable" recorded performances were once listed. There are so many of these (each one highly "notable" to someone or other) that they were starting to swamp the article, and a consensus was reached that the "Notable performances' section would need drastic pruning - and that "recorded performances" would no longer be listed. A solution might be to start a new "list" article? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 21:20, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Just reading the 'Burns text' overleaf and see that it differs in several, albeit small, ways from the text in my 1893 copy of the Poetical Works of Robert Burns (The 'Albion' edition) published by Frederick Warne and Co. (Printers Morrison and Gibb Edinburgh).
So just what is the authentic original text? A bit of a mystery for someone to research methinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.19.55.95 ( talk) 12:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
In the IPA pronunciation guide
in
Auld Lang Syne § Lyrics, which aims to describe Burns' own Ayrshire dialect
, the 'r' sounds are transcribed variously as an
alveolar tap or flap /ɾ/ and an
alveolar trill /r/. However, the cited source on "The dialect of Robert Burns as spoken in central Ayrshire" repeatedly says that the 'r' is a trill
[1]: 11,21,82,180 and, so far as I see, never calls it a tap or flap. I'll
BOLDly change the pronunciation guide to use /r/ consistently, to follow what the source says. —
2d37 (
talk)
08:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
References
@ Soundofmusicals and Getting The Knack: Regarding Special:Diff/997345100 and Special:Diff/997379746, when I saw the former edit in my watchlist, I checked the Dictionary of the Scots Language and found that it indeed says "mug" for "stoup" (and even doesn't say "cup"): [1]
2. A smaller-sized vessel for holding liquor, sometimes also used as a drinking-vessel, acc. to its size, which varied considerably, a mug, flagon, tankard, decanter (Sc. 1808 Jam.; Cai. 1939; n. and em.Sc. (a), Lnk., Wgt. 1971), freq. with the name of the measure of its capacity prefixed, as chopin-, gill-, mutchkin-, pint-, quart-stowp; hence the measure itself (Sc. 1808 Jam.; Cai. 1939). Obs. or dial. in Eng. Now chiefly hist.
[...]
- Ayr. 1788 Burns Auld Lang Syne ii.:
- And surely ye'll be your pint stowp! And surely I'll be mine!
I would have added the citation then, but, the "Standard English version (singable)" having no citations anyway, I didn't see where would be least awkward to put such a citation and moved on to other things.
Personally, I don't see much of a difference between saying "pint-cup" or "pint-mug", as the size of the cup/mug is fixed by the preceding word "pint". — 2d37 ( talk) 08:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Having a closer look at this - there is actually nothing sacred about our "translation" here - it does not, so far as I can see, literally follow a quoted source. Just a word for keeping the current text - it has evolved as a version that makes the meaning of the Scots lyrics clear, while avoiding multisyllabic "dictionary" equivalents that would be awkward to sing. In this respect there seems to be little to choose between "cup" and "mug" - to this non-drinker a "cup" is what you drink tea from, whereas a "mug" suggests coco. "Pot", on the other hand, sounds more like the implement used for cooking porridge! Although I am told that in some places it is an official "pub" measure (more often a half-pint than a full one). A toast is sometimes called a "loving-cup" (or, indeed "a cup 'o' kindness", as here!) - which might be what whoever put together our original "English" version had in mind. How would people (other than Scots, of course, and non-Scots at least making an attempt to sing in dialect) sing this verse? The short answer is they probably wouldn't sing it all - a very large proportion of the people who will be singing it in context over the next twelve hours or so will not go past the "first verse and chorus", when all is said and done. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 13:49, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
References
This article contains this phrase: The phrase "Auld Lang Syne" is also used in similar poems by Robert Ayton (1570–1638)
Encyclopaedia Brit., 1911 states this: "...and the old version of “Auld Lang Syne” ...certainly not Aytoun's. "( https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclopædia_Britannica/Aytoun,_Sir_Robert)
It appears that Charles Rogers, Aytoun's XIX century publisher, privately printed the poem in 1871 in "The Poems of Sir Robert Aytoun".
Nowhere on the net could I find any reference to the year of creation of the poem by Aytoun.
Thus it might be a literary mystification, stressing the importance of Burns' work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.112.96.51 ( talk) 20:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
This is not the original melody, and by smoe accounts, it's not the one Burns prefered. There are numerous recorded versions of the original available, and the notated melody is also available. Should be at least some mention of this, and perhaps a sample score so the two melodies can be compared.
This is still perfectly good, if rather old-fashioned, English. No need, especially in the lede, to elaborate on the close equivalence with "Auld Lang Syne" more than we already do here, or mention the derivation of both phases from Middle English. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 18:02, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
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Burns wrote the last lines of verse and chorus as "And auld lang syne" and "For auld lang syne" - but as we all know the extra words "the sake of" and "the days of" are typically added when a group of inebriates (even Scots ones) are singing it. They are of course "incorrect", in so far as we "should" be singing Burns' original words - although as it is after all a folk song (albeit one with a literary background and known "authorship") then the "correct" way is neither more nor less that the way it is actually being sung by a particular singer at a particular moment, surely?
ANYWAY - the idea that the extra words are tautology, or based on an incorrect idea of what the words actually mean is definitely not correct. "Syne" means "since", not "sake" - and "For the sake of auld lang syne" makes perfectly good sense, and incidentally is good Scots. The only reason for not singing it that way is that it's not what Burns wrote (sufficient reason perhaps, but getting the typical New Year's crowd to agree might be hard).
But if the extra words were NOT added by some dopey Sassenach who had no idea what "auld lang syne" meant anyway, where do they come from? In setting words to a tune we in fact quite often slur some of the words over several notes - but in folk song this is relatively rare, and mostly we expect each word (or each syllable - in folk song usually the same thing) to have its own note. It is a discernible part of the "folk process" that melodies sometime lose notes and lyrics gain words, in an unconscious effort to get a song to comply with the "one word one note" pattern. In this sense any group of singers (even Scots) especially "merry" ones, are liable to trip a little over the need to sing "for", "auld" and "lang" over two notes - and add the extra words their unsophisticated ears tell them really should be there.
I honestly don't thing we need look further than this for the source of those "extra words"!! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I think the edit to this effect might be just a "tease" to prove how unmusical most Wiki editors are? Just for the record, it IS pentatonic, of course. At least the melody itself is. Set to conventional four-part harmony some of the other parts may well use "extra-pentatonic" notes (IVs and VIIs). This happens if you use diatonic harmony on a pentatonic melody - but it doesn't alter the nature of the melody itself. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 14:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
We seem to be getting an escalation of "uses" of very minor notability or interest. Why not replace all but a small core of these with a general summary (something like - "the song is nowadays used in many and varied "farewell" settings - ranging from funerals and graduations to retail stores' announcement of their closing times - in both English speaking and non-English speaking countries). -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 09:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
DONE!! A good deal of redundant, non-notable, and repeated matter had crept into the article through multiple edits - I have tried to tidy it up a bit. The article still needs a lot more references! I have not attempted to tag the places where these should go. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 11:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I have never commented on an article before and this is rather minor but it seems wrong to say that Auld Lang Syne" and "America The Beautiful", chosen to be performed together at the Drum Corps International Competition have "coincidentally" got the same meter. I am sure there are several songs with the same meter, but to say that it is coincidence that songs of the same meter were picked by a group of drummers - who I suspect are fairly aware of meter - is just silly. It was probably picked because it had the same meter, not "coincidentally". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.25.41 ( talk) 21:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Burns didn't write it, he wrote it down, according to the latest QI —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.156.213 ( talk) 05:23, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Burns always claimed the words to be those of a folk song - and at least for the first verse and chorus this is generally accepted and has always been clearly pointed out in this article. The current "new discovery" of the fact does not need covering by changes in the article (please). -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:04, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The origins of the poem are unclear, but it is not disputed that Burns 'borrowed' words and phrases from older sources, as was common practice throughout most of history. What is clear, however, is that what we now call "Auld Lang Syne" was written by Burns. There is no need to confuse its origins by changing the lead when this is all discussed in the article, particularly without any new solid cite. QI, and the great Stephen Fry, doesn't count as one. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 01:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Here's the deal: The other day someone asked me what the words to that song meant, because the song didn't make any sense. I looked up the wikipedia article and it still didn't make any sense. Then I remembered how people used to translate it, "For old times' sake". At that point, it made sense. No, it's not a "literal" translation, but it's how it's used in the song, and makes the most sense - a poetic translation, and if you read the reference you'll see the same argument being made. ← Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed a cite to this page here; http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2008/12/30143236, for the simple reason that what it said makes no sense. It states;
the song's title literally means 'old long since', but is the equivalent of such sayings as 'for old time's sake'
In which case, what it is suggesting is that Burns wrote in the chorus; "For for old time's sake". (Two "for"s). Similarly, James Watson's version says "On Old long syne my Jo", which according to this translation would mean "On for old time's sake", which is equally meaningless.
The simple fact is that The poem's title is "Auld Lang Syne", and the first line of the chorus is "For auld lang syne". So any translation of the title cannot include "for", unless we think that Burns and Watson meant to say it twice. I can't image why they would. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 14:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Syne does not mean 'sake', and neither does it mean 'since' really (although undoubtably of the same root). In speech it means 'then'. E.G "I hae thocht o that foolish licht/ Ever sin' syne." (I have thought of that foolish light/ ever since then) to quote Hugh MacDiarmid. The "literal" translation then would be "old long then" which obviously doesn't really make sense in English, but since it is idiomatic and not even in English, this shouldn't cause any problems. AGW —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.71.141 ( talk) 14:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
QI 7x05 Groovy says this was not written by burns... 86.68.122.40 ( talk) 22:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
... the reference to Friedrich Silcher, a German songwriter of those times, and his translation of this wonderful song. Thanks for removing the whole 'Trivia' chapter, thanks probably sometimes for removing the whole article about this wonderful song Auld Lang Syne - thanks to Deletionmaster General, the most unwanted person in universe. And don't ask me to support your Deletioncypedia with money, or with articles (which obviously might be removed!)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.106.95.168 ( talk) 23:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks as well, Deletion Master of Deletioncyclopedia, for removing the lyrics of Hotaru no hikari (fortunately it was reposted here in the discussions), the notable transforming of this song into the Japanese world. Thanks for all of these deletings, and thanks in advance for probably having to await the deletion of this article as well...
Regardless of our disgruntled friend above - some more lines will have to go soon - having said (as we do) that it has been translated into many other languages, for example, we don't really need to list every version in every other language. Having mentioned (as we have) that it has become a common custom all over the world to sing it at graduation, passing out and "end of function" ceremonies, as well as at the new year - there seems to be little value in mentioning this over and over for every country concerned.
This is an article about Auld Lang Syne - not a "we sing(ed) it too" competition. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
This is great - and in theory there should be no copyright problems? I mean whether we count it as written by Burns or as a folk song it's still in the common domain, isn't it?
Alas, I fear that a page of sheet music pulled straight from a book like this is almost certainly a great big copyright NO NO. The harmonisation, transcription, text (erroneous anyway) apart from the (wrong) lyrics, are all someone's "intellectual property".
Copyright is something that NEEDS to be addressed every time we upload any kind of graphic file.
Having said all this - any musically literate person with a steady hand or suitable computer software want to do something similar and make a present of it to Wikipedia? Probably best to keep to a single melody line in case someone has the rights to a particular harmonisation though. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 10:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Denning97 ( talk) 03:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)the phrase Auld Lang Syne - could that not simply be an influence from the German (Anglo-Saxon) "alte lange Zeit" = a long time ago? The meaning would be the same as everything I have read, but the derivation would be more logical.
Someone seriously suggesting that the Welsh and English (and for that matter the Irish) haven't spread the use of Auld Lang Syne as much (or nearly as much) as the Scots? It's a British (and for that matter, nowadays a world wide) custom, and has been for many years. One would have thought Scots nationalists would be proud of that! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
The two are not mutually exclusive. It certainly isn't "innacurate" to call song lyrics "poems" - especially when they are written by recognised poets, and (even more especially) when only a stanza or two of the poem concerned is ever actually sung!!
When you read it it's a poem - if you sing it it's a song - in various contexts it's called one or the other throughout the article - no need to fiddle with this, I feel - far from being innacurate or inappropriate it's natural, and useful. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The tune commonly used for Auld Lang Syne today is a traditional hymn called Plenary. As a hymn it has more often been used with these heartening words:
Hark! from the tomb, a doleful sound,
Mine ears attend the cry,
Ye living men, come view the ground
Where you must shortly lie.
(chorus)
Where you must shortly lie,
Where you must shortly lie,
Ye living men, come view the ground
Where you must shortly lie.
Princes, this clay must be your bed,
In spite of all your tow'rs;
The tall, the wise, the rev'rend head,
Must lie as low as ours.
(chorus) Must lie as low as ours, etc.
Great God! Is this our certain doom?
And are we still secure?
Still walking downward to the tomb,
And yet prepared no more.
(chorus) And yet prepared no more, etc.
I just wanted to brighten your day! 75.63.4.101 ( talk) 14:50, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Yup, good call. It works indeed. The old songs were sort of "interchangeable" with lyrics based on meter. Both of these tunes happen to be what is called "common meter" so the lyrics can be switched. If you look in an old hymnal (or any other traditional songbook, for that matter) you'll see notations like "CM" (common meter) "SM" (short meter), "LM" (long meter), "8s 7s" (8 syllables alternating with 7 syllables), etc. These notations are telling you the meter, so that if you happen to be leading the singing you'll know you can sing the tune on page 117 with the words to the song on page 324, etc. In R. Burns' day and up to the mid-19th cent, songs were not typically even printed with tunes, just the words, so people had to use whatever tune they knew that fit. It goes back a lot further than that, even. See Bay Psalme Book, e.g.
So I feel doubtful Burns actually "picked a tune" to go with his poetry, (unless he published it in song form during his lifetime.) He must have known people would sing it with whatever tune worked! Even Amazing Grace did not become firmly associated with the tune we now think of, called New Britain, until pretty late in the game, I think late 19th cent. It can be, and still is, sung with many other tunes. 75.63.4.101 ( talk) 15:15, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
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-- CactusBot ( talk) 11:32, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Of course, Beethoven did, perhaps, the first arrangement of the song but there is another story (a long one) that places him as the author of the music. This isn't as "out there" as it seems and, though a well known story amongst musicians for a very long time, I have never found a reference in a book about it. As the lyricist and the famous composer did know each other and had worked together on arrangements and even fabrications of "traditional" Scotish melodies, the story is... maybe true. Gingermint ( talk) 01:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
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My wife, who is from China, has informed me that this song is not actually seen as a sad song but a song commemorating a long lasting or everlasting friendship. This article states that the song is sad and notably signifies the end of a relationship in China, which is not necessarily true (possibly for the younger generation). I would be keen on updating the entry to be more correct from my Wifes point of view but thought I would open a discussion on it first. Comments? Justacec ( talk) 03:34, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
30 Seconds Over Tokyo (1944) - sung at a party before airmen are deployed to the naval carriers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.135.100.20 ( talk) 05:58, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
The article says "In Taiwan, the tune is generally associated with funeral services". and then "It is also sung at graduation ceremonies". I would say it is just the other way around. If you talk to people in Taiwan about the song, first thing that comes to their mind are the graduation ceremonies.
Sorry I am not familiar with using/editing etc. Wikipedia yet, so I might not do this correctly here. Ilon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.218.150.126 ( talk) 04:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
Several of these simply stated that ALS was sung in the country concerned for New Year, Farewells, Funerals, Graduations, Boy Scouts functions etc.
All very fine - but unless there is something distinctive about the use of ALS in a particular country (like, say, it was once used for the National Anthem, or is the tune for the song of a popular football team) this was never really notable. In fact ALS is used almost everywhere for these things - and they are detailed above.
The problem was that once you add the name of one country (province, state, city, village, school etc.) and (no doubt quite accurately) attach the "common" uses of the tune - then you have no real comeback for anyone who wants to add to the list. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 11:03, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I have "been bold" and taken an axe to some of the we sung it too lists. The only one I have left untouched (as yet anyway) is the films list. Would a film buff like to eliminate all not-particularly-notable films, as well as those where the use of ALS is extremely peripheral and/or confined to the opening or closing credits? Otherwise I'll have a shot at it sometime soon. The point is very simply that this article needs to be (at least in the main) about its subject. Lots of what we either have, or will, delete might be a very important part of another article, just not this one. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:16, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I have basically deleted this. Reasons as discussed above - but this list in particular added nothing whatever to the article, and threatened to continue to grow expotentially into the future. Someone might like to resurrect it as a "list" type article in its own right? Or to a general article about films, or film music? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:53, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
I have several questions about this one - which for a while now has been cluttered to the point of illegibility:
Are we justified in including:
Anyway - depending on feedback, or lack of it, on this one I hereby signal my intent to:
-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Somebody from 93.91.49.11 deleted the entire "Scots pronunciation guide" column in the lyrics section without stating any reason. If this was vandalism, is there a reason why it was not restored? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.13.69 ( talk) 02:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I was surprised to see this said here because I thought it was fairly well known that Burns collected this old song and wrote it down but did not write it himself. See http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/online/AuldLangSyne/zoom.asp?id=9 treesmill ( talk) 07:22, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I was probably a little hard on the good faith edit I just reverted, that claimed a piece of perfectly good English prose that had been there for many years was "ungrammatical". For what it is worth, if they'd claimed their version was a little clearer (although even that would have been questionable) - it would probably have been allowed to stand. Anyway - sorry if I was grumpy. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:33, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Deeply shocked and upset that one of the most consulted articles on wikipedia could have been so cunningly vandalised, and NOBODY (mea culpa too) saw it for four hours. Or was it good faith after all? PLEASE what wiki does NOT need is "editors" who barge in on very "high traffic" articles with really drastic revisions. PLEASE first actually read the article, then bring up your queries on this talk page, and then wait for a day or so before barging in. It really is VERY unlikely that we've got something quite THAT wrong. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:02, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
The addition to the article about a song called Jipy Jay has been removed because it appears to be original research, which Wikipedia does not permit, and is uncited. Before adding it again could a source be provided that connects it to Auld Lang Syne, either by explaining it is the same song, a translation, or bears musical similarities. Otherwise it appears that the connection between the two is just someone's personal opinion. Thanks. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
About as necessary as for citing that it is used at New Year, surely? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Sure this is a bit problematic - depends on where in Scotland you are, and how you interpret the very makeshift "phonetic" spelling anyway. But it has survived the scrutiny of many Scottish editors now, so it can't be all that wrong! Raise in talk first, at least. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
A recent addition to the lead claims that ALS has been translated in 40 languages. But it is sourced to a source of very dubious verifiability that makes no attempt to expand on the claim. The section on In_non-English-speaking_countries|other usage also doesn't verify this. The lead is supposed to summarise the article, not introduce facts not discussed in the article. If it is to be used, can it be obtained from a better source and mentioned in this section. Thanks. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 13:06, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
With a good deal of regret - the following (obviously good faith) addition has been excised:
The fact is that ALS is used in the music soundtrack of literally hundreds of films, and at one stage we were accumulating many more or less "notable" examples of this. The end result was that quite a lengthy section (almost a "list" type article in its own right) was devoted to the use of ALS in films. Attempts to reduce this to a "highly notable" core of representative examples had to be abandonned, and it was decided by a consensus of editors that we should cut the list altogether. The problem is that statements like "The most notable (moving, appropriate, beautifully performed, characteristic etc. etc.)" really remain unverifiable opinion, however "reliable" the source.-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:59, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Almost everywhere in the world, it seems, Auld Lang Syne is used for New Year, graduations, farewells, especially by the Boy Scout movement. Having said this, as we do near the top of the article, there is no benefit (at least in this article) of repeating these "standard" uses over and over and over again, for every country or region on Earth. The "uses" we have left that ARE attached to some country all have something at least mildly different and interesting about them. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 12:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
An English pronunciation should be added as the article's in English and the only pronunciation given is the Scots one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meemo16 ( talk • contribs) 04:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:John Masey Wright - John Rogers - Robert Burns - Auld Lang Syne.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 31, 2014. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2014-12-31. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 11:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
The reason I changed the minimalist translation from "auld lang syne" to "long, long ago" was just that I felt that those three words are the part of the poem which standard English speakers have most difficulty with. I am just as happy for it to be "days of long ago" as I am for it to be "long, long ago" since either of these puts over the idiomatic meaning and they both scan. I just felt that leaving the "auld lang syne" phrase in the translation was defeating the basic purpose of the translation. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:19, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
An interesting but uncited edit is quoted in full below. There have been a string of edits of similar import put in lately - various editors have reverted them.
This seems extremely unlikely - the only cite we have seen was to an Italian Newspaper, which is on the face of it certainly NOT a reliable source. Please note that Wikipedia is NOT incestuous, and that another article, even on another edition of Wiki is NOT a source. Surprising "new" facts do sometimes come up - but Wikipedia is not the place for them to make their first appearance. This ought to be common sense. Incidentally ALS has never been in 3/4 time, just hum it and count the beats for heaven's sake. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello, it is not true that my update is silly season" practical joke. My updated is with source, not only the Italian newspaper (as you wrote). http://www.marisalivet.com/blog---the-soap-bubbles-vendor/lets-sing-a-carol-along is not a newpaper. In any case, there is written in many books and scores that Davide Rizzio is composer of "Valzer delle candele": for example in Piemonte magico e misterioso by Renzo Rossotti (edited by Newton Compton, Rome). Here http://robertobrumat.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/italiano-il-valzer-delle-candele/ you can read all history about Davide Rizzio. If you do not know a thing, this doesn't mean that it is false.-- Vito.Vita ( talk) 12:26, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Whether one considers Scots to be a dialect of "Common British" or a language in its own right rather distantly related to that degenerate Sassenach version (what's it called?) depends very largely on one's (legitimate) POV - perhaps it is best in an article like this to remain as neutral as possible, and not to plump too definitely for one or the other? (this is related to the minor edit I have just made in the lead. - Soundofmusicals ( talk) 21:46, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Several of these simply stated that ALS was sung in the country concerned for New Year, Farewells, Funerals, Graduations, Boy Scouts functions etc.
All very fine - but unless there is something distinctive about the use of ALS in a particular country (like, say, it was once used for the National Anthem, or is the tune for the song of a popular football team) this was never really notable. In fact ALS is used almost everywhere for these things - and they are detailed above.
The problem was that once you add the name of one country (province, state, city, village, school etc.) and (no doubt quite accurately) attach the "common" uses of the tune - then you have no real comeback for anyone who wants to add to the list.
This old post (from 2012) remains very apposite, worth bringing back from the archives in fact - we were talking about the use of Auld Lang Syne in various countries, and just how to cope with the fact that its use in certain "standard" contexts was, well, "standard". There are about 200 countries in the world and about 190 of these use the song (more or less frequently) for New Year, Funerals, Graduations and Boy Scout functions...
So no, please - we don't need to start down this road again. Let's keep the article on the subject of the song. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:57, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
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Just for the record - the origin etc. of the tune is already covered, in well referenced text - its use for the tunes of several hymns (not to mention many other things - also covered in the article) came after. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Just removed the "improve cites" tag on this section - not realising how many "live" performances still uncited - but perhaps most (all?) of these actually need weeding rather than citing. Does a cite for a specific album have a built-in (implied) cite to the album concerned? The value of this sort of thing is actually highly debatable anyway. One might check that each album/performance at least has its own article. May do this myself later - otherwise... - Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:18, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
The indication that the word "auld" should, in Scots Pronunciation, sound like "ald", is mistaken. I can cite no textual authority, however as a Scots speaker (albeit Urban West of Scotland) I can definitely attest that a Scots speaker would pronounce this word to rhyme with "bald", and not in any other way. Nuttyskin ( talk) 21:03, 27 December 2016 (UTC) Nuttyskin ( talk) 21:03, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
This very obviously needs to be specifically mentioned - non-Scots sometimes become quite stubborn in their insistence on "Z" rather than the correct "S". Until most people can (and do) read IPA this is important and should not be attacked. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:00, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
A VERY old edit was re-raised after several years - here's how we dealt with it then...
The addition to the article about a song called Jipy Jay has been removed because it appears to be original research, which Wikipedia does not permit, and is uncited. Before adding it again could a source be provided that connects it to Auld Lang Syne, either by explaining it is the same song, a translation, or bears musical similarities. Otherwise it appears that the connection between the two is just someone's personal opinion. Thanks. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Some dear little American person thinks Scots language is racist. Oh dear. Americans should talk! As Professor Higgins famously remarked "In America they haven't used it [proper English] for years". Of course everyone knows that true "proper English" is only spoken by well-educated Australians born earlier than (say) 1940 or thereabouts - and is therefore dying out. Sad, but inevitable. Fortunately the badness of all English spoken outside my own nationality and age group is normally masked by our use of conventional spelling. Scots spelling, on the other hand, is "conventional" on its own terms rather than "phonetic" - we didn't make it up to poke fun at ignorant Scots (honest). Scots poets like Burns wrote his Scots verse using Scots spelling and his (standard) English verse, which he would have pronounced with a strong Scottish accent of course, using standard spelling. This means that we assume that the English spoken in Alabama and Tasmania are the Same Language - while Scots is a Variant Dialect. (This post is satire) and composed in a holiday spirit - please do not take it seriously. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 21:54, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
A section is not "nul" because it doe not contain a list, or even if a list it used to contain has been deleted. The need to point this out seems very silly. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:41, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
It occurs in many countries - in fact for many years it has been as closely associated with the Scouting movement - almost as pervasively as its association with the new year. This is in itself far more notable than much other very peripheral stuff in the article. In fact it warrants a mention in the lead. This has been the case for years and is in effect a long standing consensus - please do bot remove it without arguing a new consensus here. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:54, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
A good deal of the (very extensive) archive of "talk" on this topic concerns confusion, indeed stubborn controversy, over what the title means. The fact that it is simple Scots for "long ago", or even "once upon a time" still needs (alas) all the help it can get if it not to become mired in strange and fanciful speculation. In fact clarification of the meaning of "auld lang syne" is quite probably the most important reason this article is consulted. The little note referring to the works of Matthew Fitt has remained unchallenged now for a good many years - and why not? - is totally relevant to this point. It effectively has its own "built in" verification - but otherwise a reference should not be difficult to find, if only a specific citation to one of Mr. Fitt's stories? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
The article says, "The tune to which "Auld Lang Syne" is commonly sung is a pentatonic Scots folk melody." While the melody can be played as entirely pentonic, it often isn't. Commonly, the third note (first syllable of "acquaintance") is lowered half a step to the leading tone. (A minor point, perhaps.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thinkatron ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
But surely - that would be Jan 2nd? The date changes at 24:00 (midnight). Isn't that the point? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:06, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Just quietly, isn't the very idea slightly silly? The word (whether in Scots, Scouse, Cockney and even Broad Australian) can in different contexts have different meanings and connotations, of course, but surely they are pretty much the same set of meanings, regardless of dialect? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:17, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Burns' poems very often draw on folk song lyrics (to varying degrees) but it is more helpful, as a rule, as well as more in accordance with the wider consensus in this particular case, to call it a "poem" in the first instance, and then go to its possible (probable?) folk derivation after. We do not have the "old song" referred to by Burns himself - although we can reasonably infer its existence because of "similar" poems that resemble Burns', and look as if they all draw on a common source. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 11:40, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
As sometimes happens at this time of the year - several persons were moved to edit the article in various ways! Regular editors (including me!) made various less than perfectly co-ordinated attempts to keep things on track. I have endeavoured to restore "last years's edition", with any really useful changes I could discern in yesterday's wild flurry. --- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:02, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
It's a version of the song that made Top 10 on two major charts. This fact should be at least mentioned somewhere in the article. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 01:27, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Especially in view of the above - how about a new 'lists" article about particular "covers" of this song? Or even a category "Musicians and others who have sung ALS". Personally I am very strongly against this - among other things because almost everyone and his dog would rate a spot on it - but it would be MUCH better than burdening this article with such a list!! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
defines very briefly what the article is about. This one is about the poem by Burns - who in this case (as very commonly for him) was using an old folk song as the basis for his poem. The actual words of the old folk song have in effect been lost, so the best we can do is to mention its (probable) existence in our 'history" section - although we do include a stanza or two from another literary reworking for comparison. Sorry it seems to mention this yet again, but a lot of useful matter has been (necessarily) archived. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:15, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
It is suggested that the melody for Auld Lang Syne may have been taken from the strathspey The Miller's Daughter also known as "The Miller's Wedding" -- and then several reasons are given why this is unlikely.
I find it very unlikely indeed, as the melody from this strathspey resembles neither the popular modern version of Auld Lang Syne, nor the original melody which Burns is said to have preferred. The only similarity between the two tunes is a superficial rhythmic coincidence:
Indeed, other than on Wikipedia, I've never heard The Miller's Daughter suggested as the source.
I have, however, frequently heard Sir Alexander Don's Strathspey suggested as the source for the more contemporary melody, and the resemblance here is far more than superficial -- the melodic and harmonic shapes coincide 90% or more:
This section of the article needs to be re-written; it is in error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 ( talk) 19:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
This was recently added by a thoughtful editor - who obviously (and commendably) took the necessity for referencing very seriously:
The problem is that ALS is sung in so very many countries that we need a criterion for selecting which of these we specifically mention - or we'd end up with an immense (and immensely boring, repetitive and unhelpful) list of the nations of the earth - remarking that they all use this song (to a greater or lesser extent and in a myriad of translations) - for things like the New Year, Scout jamborees etc etc. Where something is really pretty universal - listing particular cases adds bulk but no real information. It is NOT clear from the above, regardless of the quality of its referencing, that the use by the German (and French) Scouts is particularly unusual in an international context. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:22, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
References
I am not sure if there is anything notable about it, but there are two features that strike me about the German (scouts') version:
PJTraill ( talk) 00:24, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
The song "You're a Grand Old Flag" references this song in its lyrics, and the melody is only nearly identical; that is, in Auld Lang Syne the first syllable of the word "forgot" is an F; in "You're a Grand Old Flag" it's an F sharp. Any corrections?? Georgia guy ( talk) 14:43, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
This is not really a full translation into standard English, of course - just a little gloss to help a "mere Sassenach" make sense of the Scots. Since the phrase "auld lang syne" has already been fully (too fully?) explained earlier in the article, and since it is in any case is VERY familiar (to understate the case rather) it is left in the original language. As for translating "acquaintance" as "aquaintances" - this is as best rather "quaint" and at best adds nothing to the reader's understanding. "Old aquaintance" is a common (standard) English phrase for "old friends", even if only from the influence of this song. Is there a case for omitting this column from the table, perhaps clarifying the "different" Scots words with notes instead? On the whole I think it does at least as well exactly as it is, but by all means let's discuss this if you think it worthwhile. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:15, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Every year this article is attacked by folk that know it all - this time someone who wanted to anglicise the original Scots (as if an English translation wasn't enough) - and yet another attempt to introduce the French use of the song (which is quite lovely, I'm sure - but pretty well exactly the same as the rest of the world). Plus the other little bit of spleen on this talk page - not at all sure what they think they're on about - they probably don't either. We'll leave it in - but it has to go down the end, of course, like every other new comment.. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:08, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
That's what it means word for word - but it isn't exactly English. So we give three examples of more "idiomatic" renderings of the phrase. Perhaps our editor was confusing "idiomatic" with "colloquial"? Look up both words in any dictionary. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi - this is a level 4, C-class article and it's in a bit of a state. This isn't helped by what appears to be WP:OWN and the regular reversion of attempts to improve it. We need to start somewhere, so let's address this:
The song begins by posing a rhetorical question: Is it right that old times be forgotten? Alternatively, "Should" may be understood to mean "in the event that"(expressing the conditional mood) referring to a possible event or situation. The answer is generally interpreted as a call to remember long-standing friendships. Thomson's Select Songs of Scotland was published in 1799 in which the second verse about greeting and toasting was moved to its present position at the end.
This reads very badly and we should rewrite it completely. NEDOCHAN ( talk) 11:37, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
We gave up on these sections when they got too big - Is it time to start a new article? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 10:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
There is a stub section in the existing article where "notable" recorded performances were once listed. There are so many of these (each one highly "notable" to someone or other) that they were starting to swamp the article, and a consensus was reached that the "Notable performances' section would need drastic pruning - and that "recorded performances" would no longer be listed. A solution might be to start a new "list" article? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 21:20, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Just reading the 'Burns text' overleaf and see that it differs in several, albeit small, ways from the text in my 1893 copy of the Poetical Works of Robert Burns (The 'Albion' edition) published by Frederick Warne and Co. (Printers Morrison and Gibb Edinburgh).
So just what is the authentic original text? A bit of a mystery for someone to research methinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.19.55.95 ( talk) 12:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
In the IPA pronunciation guide
in
Auld Lang Syne § Lyrics, which aims to describe Burns' own Ayrshire dialect
, the 'r' sounds are transcribed variously as an
alveolar tap or flap /ɾ/ and an
alveolar trill /r/. However, the cited source on "The dialect of Robert Burns as spoken in central Ayrshire" repeatedly says that the 'r' is a trill
[1]: 11,21,82,180 and, so far as I see, never calls it a tap or flap. I'll
BOLDly change the pronunciation guide to use /r/ consistently, to follow what the source says. —
2d37 (
talk)
08:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
References
@ Soundofmusicals and Getting The Knack: Regarding Special:Diff/997345100 and Special:Diff/997379746, when I saw the former edit in my watchlist, I checked the Dictionary of the Scots Language and found that it indeed says "mug" for "stoup" (and even doesn't say "cup"): [1]
2. A smaller-sized vessel for holding liquor, sometimes also used as a drinking-vessel, acc. to its size, which varied considerably, a mug, flagon, tankard, decanter (Sc. 1808 Jam.; Cai. 1939; n. and em.Sc. (a), Lnk., Wgt. 1971), freq. with the name of the measure of its capacity prefixed, as chopin-, gill-, mutchkin-, pint-, quart-stowp; hence the measure itself (Sc. 1808 Jam.; Cai. 1939). Obs. or dial. in Eng. Now chiefly hist.
[...]
- Ayr. 1788 Burns Auld Lang Syne ii.:
- And surely ye'll be your pint stowp! And surely I'll be mine!
I would have added the citation then, but, the "Standard English version (singable)" having no citations anyway, I didn't see where would be least awkward to put such a citation and moved on to other things.
Personally, I don't see much of a difference between saying "pint-cup" or "pint-mug", as the size of the cup/mug is fixed by the preceding word "pint". — 2d37 ( talk) 08:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Having a closer look at this - there is actually nothing sacred about our "translation" here - it does not, so far as I can see, literally follow a quoted source. Just a word for keeping the current text - it has evolved as a version that makes the meaning of the Scots lyrics clear, while avoiding multisyllabic "dictionary" equivalents that would be awkward to sing. In this respect there seems to be little to choose between "cup" and "mug" - to this non-drinker a "cup" is what you drink tea from, whereas a "mug" suggests coco. "Pot", on the other hand, sounds more like the implement used for cooking porridge! Although I am told that in some places it is an official "pub" measure (more often a half-pint than a full one). A toast is sometimes called a "loving-cup" (or, indeed "a cup 'o' kindness", as here!) - which might be what whoever put together our original "English" version had in mind. How would people (other than Scots, of course, and non-Scots at least making an attempt to sing in dialect) sing this verse? The short answer is they probably wouldn't sing it all - a very large proportion of the people who will be singing it in context over the next twelve hours or so will not go past the "first verse and chorus", when all is said and done. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 13:49, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
References
This article contains this phrase: The phrase "Auld Lang Syne" is also used in similar poems by Robert Ayton (1570–1638)
Encyclopaedia Brit., 1911 states this: "...and the old version of “Auld Lang Syne” ...certainly not Aytoun's. "( https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclopædia_Britannica/Aytoun,_Sir_Robert)
It appears that Charles Rogers, Aytoun's XIX century publisher, privately printed the poem in 1871 in "The Poems of Sir Robert Aytoun".
Nowhere on the net could I find any reference to the year of creation of the poem by Aytoun.
Thus it might be a literary mystification, stressing the importance of Burns' work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.112.96.51 ( talk) 20:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
This is not the original melody, and by smoe accounts, it's not the one Burns prefered. There are numerous recorded versions of the original available, and the notated melody is also available. Should be at least some mention of this, and perhaps a sample score so the two melodies can be compared.
This is still perfectly good, if rather old-fashioned, English. No need, especially in the lede, to elaborate on the close equivalence with "Auld Lang Syne" more than we already do here, or mention the derivation of both phases from Middle English. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 18:02, 17 June 2021 (UTC)