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Archive 1 |
There is something odd here. The article is about an Augustinian hypothesis but doesn’t explain what Augustine (presumably the famous one) has to do with it. A sentence on that would be valuable. - Ian Spackman 00:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I greatly added to the article. I wrote:
Augustinian Position in Brief
Primary Points of Contention
Strengths of the theory
Modifications to the theory
Historical Sources
Augustinian Analysis of the Sources
Augustinian Position in Detail
Enjoy Lostcaesar 01:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the church fathers, was Matthew originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic? The article is unclear about this. It could have been written in Hebrew (with the Aramaic letters) or in Aramaic. Hebrew adopted the Aramaic alphabet at some point, and the entire Hebrew Bible is written with those letters, however, Aramaic was the lingua franca of the day, so it was more likely in Aramaic.
I am the author of this article and I am very impressed with the additions. ken 02:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
-- Andrew c 02:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Just to add my 2 cents. There's a judgment call here, IMO, between clarity and readability.
Usually I think there's no overwhelming need for numbered lists inside a WP paragraph. Unlike, say, a philosophy paper where you may wany to set up a label for argument "T7", so you (or somebody else) can then refer back to it later, or contrast it to argument "Q5" or whatever, mostly there is no need for that here. And the use of too many numbered lists, endlessly coming at you one after the next, can make a reader feel they are being machine-gunned, rather than talked through the subject in a friendly way. So mostly, it's (IMO) more readable just to make the points one after the next in continuous prose.
On the other hand, if by separating and denumerating the points a numbered list really helps clarity then go for it. But as a rule, they are not used routinely, and any more than pretty sparing use can jar.
One thing wikipedia probably (and IMO rightly) does more than most print encyclopedias is bullet point lists. Again, it's not something to be overdone - the count of separate different "bullet structures" in an article should probably stay very low. But I think a bullet point list (or even a numbered list) can work quite well for say the main summary of key points in favour of, and key points against, a principal hypothesis. (In some cases eg Software patent debate such a structure can get taken to extremes, but very probably even there it really was the only way to cope with such a density of assertions and counter-assertions. Thankfully there shouldn't ever be the need to deal with such a slanging match as that here!)
So: a question of balance, IMO. Probably don't number list unless there's a particular reason to; but on the other hand, don't necessarily be afraid of doing so either, if you feel there is a reason to. Jheald 00:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC).
I made some revisions to this section following the advice of Andrew. The section is still in need of citation. However, I gave the revelant material at the top of the section, and I think this is a great improvement. Furthermore, I made the section more brief. There is still work to be done, and perhaps soon I can add all the necessary citations. Still, I think it is a proper representation of the scholarship, not original research, and it should be both much improved and much easier to improve upon. Lastly, I attempted to explain the need for the position in detail to be included in the article, despite its hypothetical nature and sometime repititon of the summary atop the page. Lostcaesar 21:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The quote from Papias in section 2.2.1 states that Matthew was written in Aramaic. However, a quote in section 4 from John Wenham says that it was written in Hebrew. It is more likely that it was written in Aramaic, but it may be good to cite another of the church fathers. A good source for some of their writings is www.ccel.org/fathers2. If they do agree that it was written in Aramaic, then Wenham's quote should be removed or replaced with one that is accurate. Otherwise, there should be a note in the early section that Papias was wrong about Matthew being written in Aramaic, with sufficient justification for that statement. AUhl 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I cannot possibly see how you think the article is better now considering it has so much less information and presents the position so much less thoroughly. Allow my to address your edits point by point.
You removed every quote from the Church fathers save two. The original article had many more, and a section analyzing these sources. The point of the Augustinian hypothesis, rather than some of the other solutions to the synoptic problem, is that it explains the historical sources. If you remove the sources and their discussion then you removed the point of the hypothesis. It would be like going into the section on Q theory and removing points about textual integrity and their examples. Furthermore, the article hardly gave every quote from the Fathers, and they were in their own section, easily bypassed by any reader browsing the article. In fact, there was a section at the top of the article that gave the Augustinian position in brief, if one did not wish for a more detailed examination.
You will have to explain to me how a numbered list, stating the points of the Augustinian hypothesis (which is an argument, no less) is “biased”, or why its being “argumentative” is inappropriate. This article is not on the synoptic problem. It is on one particular solution to the synoptic problem, a hypothesis. Hypothesis have to be argued, and they are not “biased” if they present one point of view (the point of the hypothesis).
The only thing unencyclopedic is removing information essential to the subject of an article.
As for the section on “The Augustinian Position in Detail”, every single paragraph had multiple facts given to support the claim, and each fact was based on the source of the document itself (i.e. the Gospel of Matthew), which should have been clear to anyone reading the text. The information is indeed contested by scholars – but not scholars of the Augustinian hypothesis! There are other articles on the competing hypotheses. Again, this is not an article on the synoptic problem. Its an article on one solution to it, and in that respect the section you omitted merely articulates the position proposed by scholars who agree with the Augustan hypothesis.
You mentioned there are three paragraphs on Mark’s hypothetical preaching. There were no paragraphs on Marks preaching. There were paragraphs on Peter’s preaching, recoded by Mark (did you read what you deleted?), which was important because it explained why Mark would have poorer Greek than Matthew and yet still have used Matthew as a source (which is the point of contention of the AH). I really don’t want to explain it all here when you could have realized that from actually reading the section.
Whatever the case, your edits strike me as wanton mutilation. I am loath to remove information from articles I edit, usually incorporating those facts and sections into my work. I think you need to provide much more justification as to why you decreased the informative value of this article.
Lostcaesar 15:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
So my edits were fairly controversial because I removed a lot of quotes. However, I have worked with editors on the talk page since then, restored some of the information, and I feel that the edits that both myself and Lostcaesar made reached a compromise, in addition to improving gramatical issues, POV issues, wikify, etc etc. If there is specific information that I removed that you would like to see put back into the article, please discuss that. Also, please discuss what other issues remain in the article due to our edits. However, I cannot see that the version that two editors worked on is worse than what was previously there. Can you please explain your revert in more depth? -- Andrew c 02:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, look at the diff between the first paragraph alone. How can anyone say the current version is superior to the previous version? Ken needs to be MUCH more careful when reverting to avoid overturning positive contributions. -- Andrew c 02:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew, thank you for the input again. I think the moving of the paragraph which followed the quotes from Clement and Papias to the top of the section is a nice change. Some other changes you made were to sections that I don’t remember editing (I don’t remember adding back the “strengths of the theory” section, for instance), but I think you’re well supported in your maneuvers concerning those areas. There are a few minor areas that I would like to hammer on a bit more.
I think the language concerning Marcan priority’s reliance on Q vs. Matthean priority’s reliance on an Aramaic Matthew is misleading. The Aramaic Matthew is not a considered a “source” for the current Gospel, it is considered to be the current Gospel, just before translation. Conversely, Q scholars argue that a collection of saying was used as a source, with some sayings included, some changed, and some dropped, and the scholars go about “reconstructing” this text by redacting the synoptics (and I have not seen two Q scholars ever agree on their reconstructions). I don’t mean to go into that debate here (or in the article), but I think that using the word “source” in both senses is an equivocation.
Furthermore, I am not entirely comfortable with the phrase: “like Q, which some scholars argue are unmentioned in the historical sources.” Whether something is mentioned, at least explicity, ought to be pretty clear, I would think. I don’t want to go into the debate and include a big section on “deconstructing” the little sentence of Papias, but I think perhaps instead the line could just read “like Q, which is not explicitly mentioned in the historical sources”, or perhaps something like that. The scholars who interpret Papias’ statement to say something like Q theory only made such an interpretation after their textual analysis determined two sources and Marcan priority. This is a very significant point, because that is the opposite approach of the Augustinian hypothesis, which interprests textual anaysis in light of history, not vice versa, and the article should be clear on this point I think.
In this sentence: The Augustinian hypothesis address certain fundamental points of contention surrounding…” I used “questions” instead of “points of contention”. I did this because the article also uses the phrase “points of contention” in the opposite sense, discussing the primary points of the Augustinian hypothesis, rather than points against it. I would like a difference of language to distinguish these different senses, although I am not sure how best to achieve this.
Thanks again Andrew. I will mull over these thoughts, and might made some minor changes. If you have other ideas please share them. Lostcaesar 16:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
For analysis, this is how the paragraph in question would read with the omitted comments on Q, and I think it is actually much better:
The Augustinian hypothesis has a number of unique features when compared to other solutions to the synoptic problem. The foundation of evidence for the hypothesis is the writings of the Church Fathers. These historical sources date back to the first half of the 2nd century, and they historically have been held as authoritative by most Christians for nearly 2 millennia. Furthermore, the hypothesis draws upon historical testimony, rather than textual criticism, as the primary line of evidence. Hypothetical conclusions derived from textual criticism have their veracity checked by examining their consistency with the historical witness. The Augustinian hypothesis does not rely on hypothetical source documents, or texts not explicitly mentioned in the historical sources. An Aramaic version of Matthew is hypothetical in the sense that no copy survives in the original language today, however the hypothesis holds that the current Greek Mathew is a complete translation of the original Aramaic Matthew. Additionally, the Aramaic Matthew has strong support in the writings of early Christians. Finally, adherents to the Augustinian hypothesis view it as a simplistic, coherent solution to the synoptic problem. Lostcaesar 18:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I am going to go ahead and make this revision - the more I think on it the better it sounds.
While this section is coming along nicely, I feel there are some issues still present. I think a number of claims still need citations for better verifiablity. Below is a list of things that I feel need citation; I didn't want to bugger up the page with citation needed tags just yet. (note commentary):
I'm not sure if I like the format of the evidence in list form. Perhaps we could list the claims as topic sentences, and have a sentence or two after each claim explaining the evidence Imagine it in outline form:
Instead of the current: I. Claim 1 Claim 2 Claim 3
II. Support 1 Support 2 Support 3
Maybe it is the way I was taught to write, but the fomer method seems more organized and formal instead of listing claims followed by listing evidence. I also feel the way the numbered evidences is presented is poor. Some are straight out of Matthew, and some are interpreations of Matthew. This difference needs to be made clear (and this is purely preference, but I like to see bible references using the template:bibleverse and outside of ref tags.) Also, some of these evidences are still missing citations. Finally, I'm not sure if I liked the previous ending better or not, but I feel that Luke is hardly touched upon. Anyway, just a couple things to consider. -- Andrew c 01:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
In the body of the article there is a sentence stating:
" John MacArthur in his work The MacArthur Study Bible which was well received by conservative Christian scholars, argues a number of lines of evidence favoring the Augustinian hypothesis in his introduction to the Gospel of Mark."
I think MacArthur's analysis is excellent and he cites statistics as well. Perhaps some of his work could be incorporated in the section "Augustinian position in detail". I highly recommend that the Wikipedian LostCaesar look at the MacArthur material. ken 21:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
I think we should keep it simple. Here is the main allusion to Q which I put in the opening:
"This position also does not rely on any hypothetical documents that have not been found or mentioned in history." ken 21:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
Well, as I said, I feel this information is redundent with already existing information. Furthermore, I looked through the "non-overhauled version" and only found a single reference to "hypothetical documents": 3. The coherence and simplicity of the theory. It explains the nature of the texts without needing to invent hypothetical texts utterly unknown to history in order to explain the same facts. Under the "In Brief" section in a number list of strengths (that we have since changed to paragraph form). On the other handk, in the current revision, we mention this idea 3 different times in 3 different sections. I do not see how the earlier version stated how this was one of the 2 strongest points regarding the AH (and do we have a source to back up that claim). My skepticism of what earliesr version you are refering to aside, I think there may well be a way to compromise and still include this information in a more coherent manner in the opening. I'll give a revision a shot and see what you think.-- Andrew c 23:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote some of the first half of the article. I took out the bullet point list, and removed much redundant material. I also managed to add more references, and some more material as well. I think the section is much improved. I tried to play down the "alternative" notions, as they were confusing. Likewise I played down the Aramaic Primacy, since there is a main article on this, and since it is also mentioned in the body text here briefly. Also, I took out some redundant material. Next I will turn my attention to the more difficult second part of the text.
Lastly, I wonder if the Griesbach hypothesis ought to be merged with this one, since it is so tiny, and there is possibly more information on it here than over there, even though it is treated as an ammendment to the Aug. hyp. rather than a main article. Idealy, someone would totaly update that article, but until then maybe it should just point here. Well, its an idea. Lostcaesar 11:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I finally managed to rewrite the second section, long overdue. I restructured it a bit to work the two sections, modern revival and Augustinian position in detail, into a more coherent section. I also focused on secondary, modern literature. Unfortunately, A good bit of primary source material was lost, and I would like to work it back in, but overall I think the section is much better. If someone else has the opportunity to examine the changes and reapply some of the previous material, that would be appreciated. I really wasn't able to work it all back in. But, like I said, this newer revision I think is a great deal better and might be all that we need anyway. Lostcaesar 16:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe the P64 information should be changed. I have been unable to find an online copy of the Times article (it has been removed from the LexisNexis database), however I have found a little more information [1] [2]. Apparently, the scholarly article by Thiede only dates it (still controversially) to 70-100, and it is his non-scholarly writing that arbitrarily pushes it back further, and makes the conclusion that it is an eyewitness document. The media got a few things mixed up, and published an inaccurate representation of the whole situation for a big Christmas Eve story. I think citing the media in this case is not a good idea (WP:RS), and that we may be giving undue weight to Thiede's position. Maybe we could say something like "A few scholars argue for radically redating early MSS" and cite Thiede and maybe Robinson. Also, 7Q5 is not clearly identified as Mark, although, not surprisingly Theide was one of the main players in the claim as well. I think mention this information is helpful for this article, I just think there is a better way to do it. I'd propose rewriting the section thusly:
Andrew c 14:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Most scholars reject both Theide's attempts to date P64 in the first century and his identification of 7Q5 as a portion of Mark. But accuracy is not the only problem. Since neither fragment is from the autographs of Matthew and Mark, their dating (and identification) is irrelevant for the viability of the Augustinian hypothesis. Even though the paragraph has recently been improved, it still should just be removed. Stephen C. Carlson 17:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The only published Augustinian proponent I'm aware of that even mentions 7Q5 is John Wenham, Redating Matthew, Mark & Luke (1992: 177-179), and even then he is only discussing it in connection with the absolute dating of Mark, not with the relative order of the synoptics. I'd say that, unless one can cite an actual Augustinian making an argument based on 7Q5 and/or P64 for the order of composition, that paragraph with 7Q5 and/or P64 is looking like original research and, for that reason, ought to be considered a candidate for non-inclusion in Wikipedia. Stephen C. Carlson 05:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that there's been no objection in a while, I'm moving the whole paragraph to talk here:
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of December 11, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
This article needs significant work, particularly in the reliable sourcing of claims and the removal of original research.
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.— Vassyana ( talk) 13:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
"Unlike some competing hypotheses, this hypothesis does not rely on, nor does it argue for, the existence of any document that is not explicitly mentioned in historical testimony. Instead, the hypothesis draws primarily upon historical testimony, rather than textual criticism,"
Suggests that those hypothetical models are using textual criticism, but they do not, in fact. Textual Criticism is the examination of variants and then weighing the readings for originality. Models such as Q, however, are entirely speculative: they take details from textual criticism and then speculate, which is wholly different (even against) Textual Criticism. I'm proposing that "criticism" be changed to "speculation".
tooMuchData
09:29, 12 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheResearchPersona ( talk • contribs)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
There is something odd here. The article is about an Augustinian hypothesis but doesn’t explain what Augustine (presumably the famous one) has to do with it. A sentence on that would be valuable. - Ian Spackman 00:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I greatly added to the article. I wrote:
Augustinian Position in Brief
Primary Points of Contention
Strengths of the theory
Modifications to the theory
Historical Sources
Augustinian Analysis of the Sources
Augustinian Position in Detail
Enjoy Lostcaesar 01:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the church fathers, was Matthew originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic? The article is unclear about this. It could have been written in Hebrew (with the Aramaic letters) or in Aramaic. Hebrew adopted the Aramaic alphabet at some point, and the entire Hebrew Bible is written with those letters, however, Aramaic was the lingua franca of the day, so it was more likely in Aramaic.
I am the author of this article and I am very impressed with the additions. ken 02:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
-- Andrew c 02:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Just to add my 2 cents. There's a judgment call here, IMO, between clarity and readability.
Usually I think there's no overwhelming need for numbered lists inside a WP paragraph. Unlike, say, a philosophy paper where you may wany to set up a label for argument "T7", so you (or somebody else) can then refer back to it later, or contrast it to argument "Q5" or whatever, mostly there is no need for that here. And the use of too many numbered lists, endlessly coming at you one after the next, can make a reader feel they are being machine-gunned, rather than talked through the subject in a friendly way. So mostly, it's (IMO) more readable just to make the points one after the next in continuous prose.
On the other hand, if by separating and denumerating the points a numbered list really helps clarity then go for it. But as a rule, they are not used routinely, and any more than pretty sparing use can jar.
One thing wikipedia probably (and IMO rightly) does more than most print encyclopedias is bullet point lists. Again, it's not something to be overdone - the count of separate different "bullet structures" in an article should probably stay very low. But I think a bullet point list (or even a numbered list) can work quite well for say the main summary of key points in favour of, and key points against, a principal hypothesis. (In some cases eg Software patent debate such a structure can get taken to extremes, but very probably even there it really was the only way to cope with such a density of assertions and counter-assertions. Thankfully there shouldn't ever be the need to deal with such a slanging match as that here!)
So: a question of balance, IMO. Probably don't number list unless there's a particular reason to; but on the other hand, don't necessarily be afraid of doing so either, if you feel there is a reason to. Jheald 00:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC).
I made some revisions to this section following the advice of Andrew. The section is still in need of citation. However, I gave the revelant material at the top of the section, and I think this is a great improvement. Furthermore, I made the section more brief. There is still work to be done, and perhaps soon I can add all the necessary citations. Still, I think it is a proper representation of the scholarship, not original research, and it should be both much improved and much easier to improve upon. Lastly, I attempted to explain the need for the position in detail to be included in the article, despite its hypothetical nature and sometime repititon of the summary atop the page. Lostcaesar 21:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The quote from Papias in section 2.2.1 states that Matthew was written in Aramaic. However, a quote in section 4 from John Wenham says that it was written in Hebrew. It is more likely that it was written in Aramaic, but it may be good to cite another of the church fathers. A good source for some of their writings is www.ccel.org/fathers2. If they do agree that it was written in Aramaic, then Wenham's quote should be removed or replaced with one that is accurate. Otherwise, there should be a note in the early section that Papias was wrong about Matthew being written in Aramaic, with sufficient justification for that statement. AUhl 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I cannot possibly see how you think the article is better now considering it has so much less information and presents the position so much less thoroughly. Allow my to address your edits point by point.
You removed every quote from the Church fathers save two. The original article had many more, and a section analyzing these sources. The point of the Augustinian hypothesis, rather than some of the other solutions to the synoptic problem, is that it explains the historical sources. If you remove the sources and their discussion then you removed the point of the hypothesis. It would be like going into the section on Q theory and removing points about textual integrity and their examples. Furthermore, the article hardly gave every quote from the Fathers, and they were in their own section, easily bypassed by any reader browsing the article. In fact, there was a section at the top of the article that gave the Augustinian position in brief, if one did not wish for a more detailed examination.
You will have to explain to me how a numbered list, stating the points of the Augustinian hypothesis (which is an argument, no less) is “biased”, or why its being “argumentative” is inappropriate. This article is not on the synoptic problem. It is on one particular solution to the synoptic problem, a hypothesis. Hypothesis have to be argued, and they are not “biased” if they present one point of view (the point of the hypothesis).
The only thing unencyclopedic is removing information essential to the subject of an article.
As for the section on “The Augustinian Position in Detail”, every single paragraph had multiple facts given to support the claim, and each fact was based on the source of the document itself (i.e. the Gospel of Matthew), which should have been clear to anyone reading the text. The information is indeed contested by scholars – but not scholars of the Augustinian hypothesis! There are other articles on the competing hypotheses. Again, this is not an article on the synoptic problem. Its an article on one solution to it, and in that respect the section you omitted merely articulates the position proposed by scholars who agree with the Augustan hypothesis.
You mentioned there are three paragraphs on Mark’s hypothetical preaching. There were no paragraphs on Marks preaching. There were paragraphs on Peter’s preaching, recoded by Mark (did you read what you deleted?), which was important because it explained why Mark would have poorer Greek than Matthew and yet still have used Matthew as a source (which is the point of contention of the AH). I really don’t want to explain it all here when you could have realized that from actually reading the section.
Whatever the case, your edits strike me as wanton mutilation. I am loath to remove information from articles I edit, usually incorporating those facts and sections into my work. I think you need to provide much more justification as to why you decreased the informative value of this article.
Lostcaesar 15:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
So my edits were fairly controversial because I removed a lot of quotes. However, I have worked with editors on the talk page since then, restored some of the information, and I feel that the edits that both myself and Lostcaesar made reached a compromise, in addition to improving gramatical issues, POV issues, wikify, etc etc. If there is specific information that I removed that you would like to see put back into the article, please discuss that. Also, please discuss what other issues remain in the article due to our edits. However, I cannot see that the version that two editors worked on is worse than what was previously there. Can you please explain your revert in more depth? -- Andrew c 02:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, look at the diff between the first paragraph alone. How can anyone say the current version is superior to the previous version? Ken needs to be MUCH more careful when reverting to avoid overturning positive contributions. -- Andrew c 02:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew, thank you for the input again. I think the moving of the paragraph which followed the quotes from Clement and Papias to the top of the section is a nice change. Some other changes you made were to sections that I don’t remember editing (I don’t remember adding back the “strengths of the theory” section, for instance), but I think you’re well supported in your maneuvers concerning those areas. There are a few minor areas that I would like to hammer on a bit more.
I think the language concerning Marcan priority’s reliance on Q vs. Matthean priority’s reliance on an Aramaic Matthew is misleading. The Aramaic Matthew is not a considered a “source” for the current Gospel, it is considered to be the current Gospel, just before translation. Conversely, Q scholars argue that a collection of saying was used as a source, with some sayings included, some changed, and some dropped, and the scholars go about “reconstructing” this text by redacting the synoptics (and I have not seen two Q scholars ever agree on their reconstructions). I don’t mean to go into that debate here (or in the article), but I think that using the word “source” in both senses is an equivocation.
Furthermore, I am not entirely comfortable with the phrase: “like Q, which some scholars argue are unmentioned in the historical sources.” Whether something is mentioned, at least explicity, ought to be pretty clear, I would think. I don’t want to go into the debate and include a big section on “deconstructing” the little sentence of Papias, but I think perhaps instead the line could just read “like Q, which is not explicitly mentioned in the historical sources”, or perhaps something like that. The scholars who interpret Papias’ statement to say something like Q theory only made such an interpretation after their textual analysis determined two sources and Marcan priority. This is a very significant point, because that is the opposite approach of the Augustinian hypothesis, which interprests textual anaysis in light of history, not vice versa, and the article should be clear on this point I think.
In this sentence: The Augustinian hypothesis address certain fundamental points of contention surrounding…” I used “questions” instead of “points of contention”. I did this because the article also uses the phrase “points of contention” in the opposite sense, discussing the primary points of the Augustinian hypothesis, rather than points against it. I would like a difference of language to distinguish these different senses, although I am not sure how best to achieve this.
Thanks again Andrew. I will mull over these thoughts, and might made some minor changes. If you have other ideas please share them. Lostcaesar 16:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
For analysis, this is how the paragraph in question would read with the omitted comments on Q, and I think it is actually much better:
The Augustinian hypothesis has a number of unique features when compared to other solutions to the synoptic problem. The foundation of evidence for the hypothesis is the writings of the Church Fathers. These historical sources date back to the first half of the 2nd century, and they historically have been held as authoritative by most Christians for nearly 2 millennia. Furthermore, the hypothesis draws upon historical testimony, rather than textual criticism, as the primary line of evidence. Hypothetical conclusions derived from textual criticism have their veracity checked by examining their consistency with the historical witness. The Augustinian hypothesis does not rely on hypothetical source documents, or texts not explicitly mentioned in the historical sources. An Aramaic version of Matthew is hypothetical in the sense that no copy survives in the original language today, however the hypothesis holds that the current Greek Mathew is a complete translation of the original Aramaic Matthew. Additionally, the Aramaic Matthew has strong support in the writings of early Christians. Finally, adherents to the Augustinian hypothesis view it as a simplistic, coherent solution to the synoptic problem. Lostcaesar 18:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I am going to go ahead and make this revision - the more I think on it the better it sounds.
While this section is coming along nicely, I feel there are some issues still present. I think a number of claims still need citations for better verifiablity. Below is a list of things that I feel need citation; I didn't want to bugger up the page with citation needed tags just yet. (note commentary):
I'm not sure if I like the format of the evidence in list form. Perhaps we could list the claims as topic sentences, and have a sentence or two after each claim explaining the evidence Imagine it in outline form:
Instead of the current: I. Claim 1 Claim 2 Claim 3
II. Support 1 Support 2 Support 3
Maybe it is the way I was taught to write, but the fomer method seems more organized and formal instead of listing claims followed by listing evidence. I also feel the way the numbered evidences is presented is poor. Some are straight out of Matthew, and some are interpreations of Matthew. This difference needs to be made clear (and this is purely preference, but I like to see bible references using the template:bibleverse and outside of ref tags.) Also, some of these evidences are still missing citations. Finally, I'm not sure if I liked the previous ending better or not, but I feel that Luke is hardly touched upon. Anyway, just a couple things to consider. -- Andrew c 01:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
In the body of the article there is a sentence stating:
" John MacArthur in his work The MacArthur Study Bible which was well received by conservative Christian scholars, argues a number of lines of evidence favoring the Augustinian hypothesis in his introduction to the Gospel of Mark."
I think MacArthur's analysis is excellent and he cites statistics as well. Perhaps some of his work could be incorporated in the section "Augustinian position in detail". I highly recommend that the Wikipedian LostCaesar look at the MacArthur material. ken 21:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
I think we should keep it simple. Here is the main allusion to Q which I put in the opening:
"This position also does not rely on any hypothetical documents that have not been found or mentioned in history." ken 21:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
Well, as I said, I feel this information is redundent with already existing information. Furthermore, I looked through the "non-overhauled version" and only found a single reference to "hypothetical documents": 3. The coherence and simplicity of the theory. It explains the nature of the texts without needing to invent hypothetical texts utterly unknown to history in order to explain the same facts. Under the "In Brief" section in a number list of strengths (that we have since changed to paragraph form). On the other handk, in the current revision, we mention this idea 3 different times in 3 different sections. I do not see how the earlier version stated how this was one of the 2 strongest points regarding the AH (and do we have a source to back up that claim). My skepticism of what earliesr version you are refering to aside, I think there may well be a way to compromise and still include this information in a more coherent manner in the opening. I'll give a revision a shot and see what you think.-- Andrew c 23:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote some of the first half of the article. I took out the bullet point list, and removed much redundant material. I also managed to add more references, and some more material as well. I think the section is much improved. I tried to play down the "alternative" notions, as they were confusing. Likewise I played down the Aramaic Primacy, since there is a main article on this, and since it is also mentioned in the body text here briefly. Also, I took out some redundant material. Next I will turn my attention to the more difficult second part of the text.
Lastly, I wonder if the Griesbach hypothesis ought to be merged with this one, since it is so tiny, and there is possibly more information on it here than over there, even though it is treated as an ammendment to the Aug. hyp. rather than a main article. Idealy, someone would totaly update that article, but until then maybe it should just point here. Well, its an idea. Lostcaesar 11:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I finally managed to rewrite the second section, long overdue. I restructured it a bit to work the two sections, modern revival and Augustinian position in detail, into a more coherent section. I also focused on secondary, modern literature. Unfortunately, A good bit of primary source material was lost, and I would like to work it back in, but overall I think the section is much better. If someone else has the opportunity to examine the changes and reapply some of the previous material, that would be appreciated. I really wasn't able to work it all back in. But, like I said, this newer revision I think is a great deal better and might be all that we need anyway. Lostcaesar 16:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe the P64 information should be changed. I have been unable to find an online copy of the Times article (it has been removed from the LexisNexis database), however I have found a little more information [1] [2]. Apparently, the scholarly article by Thiede only dates it (still controversially) to 70-100, and it is his non-scholarly writing that arbitrarily pushes it back further, and makes the conclusion that it is an eyewitness document. The media got a few things mixed up, and published an inaccurate representation of the whole situation for a big Christmas Eve story. I think citing the media in this case is not a good idea (WP:RS), and that we may be giving undue weight to Thiede's position. Maybe we could say something like "A few scholars argue for radically redating early MSS" and cite Thiede and maybe Robinson. Also, 7Q5 is not clearly identified as Mark, although, not surprisingly Theide was one of the main players in the claim as well. I think mention this information is helpful for this article, I just think there is a better way to do it. I'd propose rewriting the section thusly:
Andrew c 14:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Most scholars reject both Theide's attempts to date P64 in the first century and his identification of 7Q5 as a portion of Mark. But accuracy is not the only problem. Since neither fragment is from the autographs of Matthew and Mark, their dating (and identification) is irrelevant for the viability of the Augustinian hypothesis. Even though the paragraph has recently been improved, it still should just be removed. Stephen C. Carlson 17:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The only published Augustinian proponent I'm aware of that even mentions 7Q5 is John Wenham, Redating Matthew, Mark & Luke (1992: 177-179), and even then he is only discussing it in connection with the absolute dating of Mark, not with the relative order of the synoptics. I'd say that, unless one can cite an actual Augustinian making an argument based on 7Q5 and/or P64 for the order of composition, that paragraph with 7Q5 and/or P64 is looking like original research and, for that reason, ought to be considered a candidate for non-inclusion in Wikipedia. Stephen C. Carlson 05:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that there's been no objection in a while, I'm moving the whole paragraph to talk here:
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of December 11, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
This article needs significant work, particularly in the reliable sourcing of claims and the removal of original research.
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.— Vassyana ( talk) 13:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
"Unlike some competing hypotheses, this hypothesis does not rely on, nor does it argue for, the existence of any document that is not explicitly mentioned in historical testimony. Instead, the hypothesis draws primarily upon historical testimony, rather than textual criticism,"
Suggests that those hypothetical models are using textual criticism, but they do not, in fact. Textual Criticism is the examination of variants and then weighing the readings for originality. Models such as Q, however, are entirely speculative: they take details from textual criticism and then speculate, which is wholly different (even against) Textual Criticism. I'm proposing that "criticism" be changed to "speculation".
tooMuchData
09:29, 12 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheResearchPersona ( talk • contribs)