This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article appears to be an essay. Consider the following sections:
All of this appears to violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view and original research policies. WP:OR says this kind of writing is probably not acceptable: It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source... I'd suggest that someone who knows more about the subject clean it up to make it more balanced. Aplomado talk 22:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't ask whether Wiki could reject things-- I asked whether an article can do so, or whether the principle to follow is pseudosymmetry, the practice of appearing to present a balance of information when no such balance exists.I am a legitimate scholar and can provide a good deal of evidence to that effect, as i believe Mr. Peterson will see if he consults Google, which he should do before dismissing my comments. I would like to inquire of "Aplomado" why it is acceptable for an article to state that a practice has an evidentiary basis, but not acceptable for me to state that it does not? Surely both statements draw conclusions, although they don't stress that that's what they're doing. Jean Mercer
Now, Mr. Peterson, I must say that your arguments are not at all what I expected them to be. You say that there is already a discusssion of Attachment Therapy, but the only treatments discussed as far as I can see are Theraplay and DDP. You also take my comments on the connection between Bowlby's theory and Attachment Therapy and comment on them with respect to DDP. This would seem to indicate that you acknowledge DDP to be a form of Attachment Therapy as I've defined it in this article. If this is the case, I wonder whether you want to continue to defend these forms of treatment. If it is not the case, you will surely have to acknowledge that the topic of Attachment Therapy is not covered elsewhere in Wikipedia and that therefore there is a reason for this article.
Perhaps the best way to proceed here would be for you to state your definition of Attachment Therapy and to say whether you consider DDP to belong to the group of treatments as I have defined them here or as you define them yourself. That should help establish some rationale for inclusion or exclusion of the topic. Jean Mercer 13:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
This article has been largely taken over by Attachment Therapy proponents to whitewash their unvalidated practices. Please refer to the article on Quackwatch, the APSAC Task Force on Attachment Therapy, and childrenintherapy.org for accurate information. Particularly helpful are the latter's quotes pages where Attachment Therapists say more about how abusive AT is than any critic could. -- Health Consumer Advocate 8/31/06
The article is much improved now that a broad range of people have had an opportunity to edit and comment. I disagree with the previous comment. While the APSAC task force has many importnat things to say, it does not support the previous commentor's thesis. Quackwatch and Advocates for Children in Therapy are two closely related fringe groups that lack credibility, unlike APSAC. DPeterson talk 23:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Isn't there a procedure for requesting the deletion of an article? Just blanking it, as "DPeterson" did, is an act of vandalism. (He has, I believe, committed other acts of vandalism, and has been warned.)
Yes, there is a need for a separate article. Attachment Therapy (note the proper name) is a separate phenomenon, especially in the United States. It is the subject of white papers and position statements by professional organizations. In addition to therapy, it encourages certain readily distinguishable child discipline (or parenting, or "teaching") techniques. It has been noticed by the media, prosecutors, and legislatures (including Congress).
Dr Mercer's original attempt at an article may indeed be more of an essay than an encyclopedic article, and consequently needs some work. I, and possibly others, would like to do that, but it should remain up for that purpose. I think the notices placed by Aplomado do more than enough to alert readers to the article's tentative editing state. We should be allowed to work on it.
I also want to protest the personal attacks here by DPeterson, who is possibly a sock puppet of Dr Becker-Weidman (they at least share the same IP address, 68.66.160.228). Attacking anyone's affiliations is specifically mentioned as a personal attack. Attacking anyone's right to comment or edit based on their alleged lack of clinical experience is diametrically opposed to Wiki philosophy. I (and separately, Dr Mercer) have had to put up with such boorishness elsewhere, but I'm going to have zero tolerance for it here, and will protest it immediately to Wiki administrators.
Larry Sarner 03:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
There already exits articles Attachment therapy Attachment disorder etc. This page is irrelevant and is being used as a forum for a fringe group, ACT, of which mercer and sarner are leaders. There was discussion and comment that this article was not Wikipedia appropriate. Larry Sarner continues to pursue personal attacks and is now taking his firght elsewhere since his attacks on the Bowlby page are not having the result he wants. His continued disrespect of Dr. Becker-Weidman and allegations that I am a "sock-puppet" when that has been shown to be false is clearly antagonistic and diametrically opposed to Wikipedia philosophy. It is a fact that neither Larry Sarner nor Mercer are clinicians, licensed mental health professionals, and have no clinical experience. DPeterson 04:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, if the article survives, I suggest that the editors here obtain a copy of the full-text of the PubMed study I included, and simply refute any misinformation with the facts. This article reads like many of its nature: they include all kinds of medical references, which may have nothing to do with the price of beans in China, but make the topic appear to have medical respectability. The way to put out *accurate* information is to get the study, and quote it. Sandy 01:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Most of what was on this page is on other pages. The Also See links can bring readers to those related pages. Also tried to make this article more appropriately neutral in its point of view. DPeterson 20:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
To include the full range of issues on this proposed page would then have to duplicate material on the previously cited Wikipedia articles or duplicate the APSAC report. A better solution would be to include a reference and brief description of the controversy on the previously mentioned page with a link to the APSAC report for details ' DPeterson 02:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)'
I see--- Attachment Therapy, capital A, capital T, is something that doesn't exist any more? But it must have at one time; Hughes said so (and so did Cline, Hage, Levy, Keith Reber, etc.). So I assume there will be no problem about a historical overview of these practices, which is certainly not included in any other topic? And I also assume that everyone contributing here objects to those old adjuvant practices such as withholding food or forcing food or water consumption? Or is there a POV problem, so that you'd all like to see discussion of the bright side of child starvation? (I know at least one of you has read Nancy Thomas, because he used to have a link to her material on his web site.) Jean Mercer 21:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you'd like to tell us when Attachment Therapy ended? Or will you say it never existed because there was no code for it? If we could revert to my statement that this was/is a CAM practice, not in the mainstream, perhaps the intention of my original statements will be made clearer. Every edit and statement made here by certain users makes it appear more likely that they have something to gain by preventing the public from hearing any criticisms of physically intrusive treatments. A number of usernames have associated themselves with the view that there is no AT, maybe even that there never was, and therefore there's no need to discuss it-- what admirable motives could be associated with these actions? This obfuscation will certainly not bring dead children back to life, and it does make it more likely that there will be more deaths and injuries in the future. Why do it? Can you explain it either to me or to yourselves? Jean Mercer 12:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I would be interested in other contributor's and editor's comments about this topic. "Attachment therapy" is a broad name for a difuse range of interventions about which there is little agreement regading definition. For example, the AMA's CPT code book has nothing for this. In addtion, I know of no insurance company that covers "attachment therapy," primarily because it is not a "recognized" form of treatment in the same way that family therapy, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, EMDR, and other forms of treatment are (having a recognized body of literature and practice). DPeterson 02:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Balnced and fair-- yes, please. Will someone kindly add some material that supports the use of physical intrusiveness and denial of ordinary physical needs? That would be most interesting. As for insurance company coverage, generally the billing states a diagnostic category such as 313.89, which is said to be treated-- in psychotherapy without medication, there would usually be no statement of the specifics of the treatment. The insurance covers treatment of reactive attachment disorder, not a specific intervention. Jean Mercer 21:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC) 'Not correct.' If you were a licensed mental health provider you'd be aware that you must state put a procedure code, such as "family therapy" on the form. In addition, the regular periodic reviews for quality and utilization purposes require detailed explainations of the specifics of the treatment and modality being used. Insurance benefits may cover the diagnosis of Reactive Attachment Disorder, or not, and will also only cover certain specific treatments and modalities. RalphLender 21:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The treatment code is extremely general, as you know. "Family therapy", for example, could cover anything from Minuchin to Martha Welch. But this is of course a red herring, aimed at evading the question about a fair and balanced presentation of abusive practices. Jean Mercer 12:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I made these edits today. Most were just some copyediting, but I removed a few statements that were showing the problems of their original author. For example:
-- Aplomado talk 00:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
It's better, but I still have a couple problems with it.
-- Aplomado talk 01:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe one problem here is the distinction between "attachment therapy" and "Attachment Therapy." Certainly most child psychotherapies today are relationship-focused, and therefore may be called "attachment therapies" for short. "Attachment Therapy" (capital A, capital T) is a term that has been used specifically for the practices I described in my draft of this page. Whereas other topics deal with the lc-lc attachment therapies, I don't see any that address the capital A, capital T group. I can't imagine that the other users in this discussion are claiming that the therapies they discuss elsewhere employ coercion and "rage reduction" and that therefore those treatments are covered elsewhere. If they are claiming this, perhaps they'd like to add material to this draft, supporting the use of holding and similar practices.
Would a change of vocabulary cover the objections that are being raised? Suppose the topic were changed to Coercive Restraint Therapies, with Attachment Therapy listed as one of the possible names? I suggest this although there is in fact a "discipline" called Attachment Therapy, with an extensive literature published primarily by small printer-ready publishing houses. It would be a simple matter to add a considerable list of references of that type.
I believe it is a mistake to simply deny the existence of these practices. The state of Georgia, for instance, is offering training to social workers that includes the Attachment Therapy belief system. The useof coercive approaches with children appears to be growing, rather than shrinking, and I believe that professionals-- and Wikipedia itself-- have some obligations to contribute to accurate public knowledge in this area. Jean Mercer 14:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
"Coercive Restrain Therapies" is a term mercer coined, which, again, has no meaning in the professional literature and is not used among licensed mental health professionals. If you make statements you must support them...what is the basis for stating that the use of coercive treatments is growing? Other than what is stated on the Advocates for Children in Therapy page? RalphLender 14:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Strange that you say that about AT, because Daniel Hughes used that term to refer to Foster Cline's methods in his 1998 book, where he spoke of those methods as acceptable if other things didn't work. The constant alteration of terms and definitions made me and others propose CRT as descriptive of the intervention, but AT is fine-- that's why I originally used it. I want this matter to be talked about because I believe the practice is harmful and undesirable. Perhaps you could explain why you don't want this message to be conveyed to the public? Or, if it's simply a matter of language, name a term that you can deal with, that covers the interventions I described in this little article. Jean Mercer 15:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I must say that the distinction between "Attachment Therapy" and "attachment therapy" has me a bit confused. I found an explanation of "attachment therapy" by Arthur Becker-Weidman here: http://www.attachmentdisorder.net/Dr._Art_Treatment.htm. Among other things he says:
"Attachment therapy is the only form of treatment that is effective with trauma-attachment disordered children. It is the only "evidence-based" treatment, meaning that there has been research published in peer-reviewed journals. Attachment therapy is primarily an experiential-based treatment, designed to facilitate experiences of safety and security so that a secure attachment may grow."—The preceding unsigned comment was added by IPaddress ( talk • contribs)..
Is "attachment therapy" something that Becker-Weidman still practices? Or is this an outdated page? How does the "attachment therapy" described by Becker-Weidman differ from "Attachment Therapy"? There does appear to be something called "Attachment Therapy," as this person claims to have studied it: http://www.dianefeinberg.com/; and these people claim to offer an "Intensive Attachment Therapy Program": http://www.attachmenttherapy.com/. At the same time, a U.S. Senate Resolution, while specifically critizing "rebirthing," also notes that several children have died from other forms of "attachment therapy": http://salazar.senate.gov/images/pdf/051018%20Rebirthing%20Resolution%20Res%20276.pdf (see the third "whereas" clause on page 2 of the document.)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by IPaddress ( talk • contribs)..
I'm very confused. Could someone please enlighten me on this issue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.233.237 ( talk • contribs) -- Unsigned comments are not helpful for this disucssion. This person appears to have a somewhat suspect history. In fact most of this person's comments regard mercer and so could be that person or related in some way. This contributor may just be a sock-puppet for ACT, or not, but in any event this is suspect as it mirrors language by ACT and by the leaders of ACT.
The previous discussion elaborates that "Attachment Therapy is not a used term. "Attachment therapy is what the APSAC report refers to. Your quote of the article by Dr. Becker-Weidman is on a site and appears to be many years old, so its currency and value is unclear at this time. Probably a better references are his current articles and the book he co-edited, if you are wanted to cite his current thinking and practice. DPeterson 01:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, the comments are provocative and appear to be a soapbox harrangue. I suggest that such inflamatory comments be edited by an administrator. DPeterson 02:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
So, your remaining hidden does raise the spectre of your merely being a sock-puppet and spokesperson for mercer (or relative of mercer?), ACT, and other leaders of ACT; We just don't know. This practice of continually making accusations and going on and on with the same accusation is quite similiar to the tactic of other leaders of ACT on Wiki pages. DPeterson 02:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
You are now misrepresenting the facts. The senate resolution speaks to "rebirthing." Show me anyting in Dr. Becker-Weidman's article or materials that promotes "rebirthing." I am sure you cannot. Your comments sound strikingly like those of sarner or other leaders of ACT. Using this forum as a soapbox is counter to the intention of Wikipedia and I encourage you to not use this as a platform to promote a provocative or fringe POV as that is not in the spirit of consensus building, which is a corner stone or Wikipedia. DPeterson 02:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
So, your remaining hidden does raise the spectre of your merely being a sock-puppet and spokesperson for mercer (or relative of mercer?), ACT, and other leaders of ACT; We just don't know. DPeterson 02:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
It was pretty clear what was being discussed until someone edited it to make it ambiguous, presumably with the goal of supporting deletion of the whole topic. Jean Mercer 12:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I see that the reference by Jean Mercer was deleted. Self-promotion is not allowed in encyclopedia articles. I agree with this deletion. SamDavidson 13:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This is certainly an interesting approach. By the line of reasoning above, in which one can't cite one's own work, it would appear that only people who have done no work in a field can write for Wikipedia-- if they identify themselves. Those who refuse to identify themselves can of course cite themselves freely. Perhaps I should have imitated Jane Austen and signed "A Lady".
For those who are interested in my expertise, I have provided a link to my c.v. below (in a later part of this discussion). I leave it to you to judge.
In any case, all these issues are simply red herrings to conceal the fact that DPeterson & Co. want to prevent the public from having information about holding therapy,Dyadic Synchronous Bonding, Prolonged Parent-Child Embrace, or any of the flock of names I've categorized as Attachment Therapy, following Foster Cline, and, of course, Daniel Hughes. Jean Mercer 12:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
My first attempt at a clarification failed miserably, so I'm going to try one more time with a slightly altered version of my question. There does appear to be something called "Attachment Therapy," as this person claims to have studied it: http://www.dianefeinberg.com/; and these people claim to offer an "Intensive Attachment Therapy Program": http://www.attachmenttherapy.com/. At the same time, a U.S. Senate Resolution, while specifically critizing "rebirthing," also notes that several children have died from "other forms of attachment therapy": http://salazar.senate.gov/images/pdf/051018%20Rebirthing%20Resolution%20Res%20276.pdf (see the third "whereas" clause on page 2 of the document.) 69.170.233.237 21:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Could anyone offer some thoughts on what the "attachment therapy" and "Attachment Therapy" referred to in these documents are? 69.170.233.237 21:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
"Attachment therapy" also sometimes called "holding therapy" is an 'ambiguous' term which is sometimes used to describe a form of treatment for behavioral difficulties in children suffering from attachment disorder. However, because 'the term has no common meaning', its actual definition is unclear. As such, it has 'little commonly agreed upong meaning' in the professional literature. For example, it is not a term found in the Amereican Medial Association's Physician's Current Procedural Manual. A number of advocacy groups, such as Advocates For Children in Therapy have undertaken to label nearly all treatments for children with disorders of attachment as "attachment therapy" and attempt to discredit those therapies. Some components of "attachment therapy" have been disapproved by a task force of the American Professional Society on Abuse of children (APSAC). (Chaffin et al.,2006, PMID 16382093). Specifically, the task force addressed coercive methods and practices as inappropriate for treatment. So, who knows what those documents mean by this ill-defined and ambiguous term. DPeterson 21:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a citation for the reference, but maybe someone else can provide that. Otherwise, maybe just a link to the other page may suffice. Perhaps Mercer (IP 69.170.233.237) could provide one, or other contributors. DPeterson 23:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, whoever that is who's writing, I'm not in Florida. I'm in New Jersey, where I live and work. I sign my name (although occasionally I seem to have flubbed my sign-in), I'm not afraid to have people identify me-- and if you'd all like to examine my c.v. it's at http://www.jeanmercer.org/jeanmercercv.pdf. You are in NY and your son is in FL. RalphLender 19:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Sir, do you think I don't know where I live? Jean Mercer 14:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
User 74.225...may be mercer's son (Miami Fla again) and she lives in NJ. OK, good to know. DPeterson 17:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Let's leave the material up there for a few days and see what develops. If a citation can be provided that might help. What do other editors think? DPeterson 00:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Pro:
Con:
No Opinion:
DPeterson 00:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe this issue is settled. Citations have been provided to support the material. RalphLender 19:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if the following might be helpful for this topic. First, a page on the "History and Origins" of attachment therapy. Questions such as these could be answered: Who coined the term? What did it mean to that person? What was involved in the practice of attachment therapy at this time? Second, a page on the "Subsequent Development" of attachment therapy, focusing on these questions: How did attachment therapy develop over time? What kinds of practices were involved? At what point did harmful practices such as "rebirthing" enter into it? Who were some of the groups performing it? What does the term mean to those who still practice it now? 69.170.233.237 23:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you write something and post it here and then editors can comment on the value of what you prepare. DPeterson 00:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
'Pro:'I have asked for assistance from WikiProject Medicine on this topic and on Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy, where the nature of evidence-based treatment is an issue. I would like to hold off on any decisions or editing until someone from that group becomes involved. Jean Mercer 12:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
1.
'Con:'
'1' See my points above on why it may not be possible to answer those questions. The subject areas is ill defined, with no clear meaning to the terms and therefore no agreement. May be difficult or impossible to create material with a 'NPOV' DPeterson 01:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
'2' I have agree with the reasoning of DPeterson on this. The term is very vague and has no common body of knowledge or clear defination as a treatment modality in the same way that family therapy does or play therapy, for example.
'No Opinion:'
1. DPeterson 00:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've added some references to work that specifies a set of treaments by using the terms "attachment therapy" in quotation marks or Attachment Therapy with caps. I tried to remove the quotation marks that did not refer to this type of treatment. Much more editing is needed-- the references to Lieberman and so on are really irrelevant -- but the advice of the WikiProject Medicine people should be useful. I would appreciate it if people would not delete the references to my work, which followed other authors in the use of the terms. I have not deleted the previously added references, but someone should.Perhaps in writing this there should be some thought given to the potential reader who would be very confused as things stand. Jean Mercer 20:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The references to Lieberman are quite relevant to make a clear distinction between an ill-defined vague "approach" and other approaches that are clearly defined and unrelated. Your material could lead a naive reader to think that Lieberman and other's are using coercive and unacceptable methods since "attachment therapy" and therapy using attachment principles or based in attachment theory are so similiar. RalphLender 23:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I already responded elsewhere, as well as earlier on this page. Citing is not promoting-- if it were, I would never have cited Monica Krenner or Terry Levy, or Becker-Weidman for that matter. And I have disclosed my entire puny commercial interest. Your turn!
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Attachment therapy/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
Last edited at 19:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:08, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article appears to be an essay. Consider the following sections:
All of this appears to violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view and original research policies. WP:OR says this kind of writing is probably not acceptable: It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source... I'd suggest that someone who knows more about the subject clean it up to make it more balanced. Aplomado talk 22:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't ask whether Wiki could reject things-- I asked whether an article can do so, or whether the principle to follow is pseudosymmetry, the practice of appearing to present a balance of information when no such balance exists.I am a legitimate scholar and can provide a good deal of evidence to that effect, as i believe Mr. Peterson will see if he consults Google, which he should do before dismissing my comments. I would like to inquire of "Aplomado" why it is acceptable for an article to state that a practice has an evidentiary basis, but not acceptable for me to state that it does not? Surely both statements draw conclusions, although they don't stress that that's what they're doing. Jean Mercer
Now, Mr. Peterson, I must say that your arguments are not at all what I expected them to be. You say that there is already a discusssion of Attachment Therapy, but the only treatments discussed as far as I can see are Theraplay and DDP. You also take my comments on the connection between Bowlby's theory and Attachment Therapy and comment on them with respect to DDP. This would seem to indicate that you acknowledge DDP to be a form of Attachment Therapy as I've defined it in this article. If this is the case, I wonder whether you want to continue to defend these forms of treatment. If it is not the case, you will surely have to acknowledge that the topic of Attachment Therapy is not covered elsewhere in Wikipedia and that therefore there is a reason for this article.
Perhaps the best way to proceed here would be for you to state your definition of Attachment Therapy and to say whether you consider DDP to belong to the group of treatments as I have defined them here or as you define them yourself. That should help establish some rationale for inclusion or exclusion of the topic. Jean Mercer 13:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
This article has been largely taken over by Attachment Therapy proponents to whitewash their unvalidated practices. Please refer to the article on Quackwatch, the APSAC Task Force on Attachment Therapy, and childrenintherapy.org for accurate information. Particularly helpful are the latter's quotes pages where Attachment Therapists say more about how abusive AT is than any critic could. -- Health Consumer Advocate 8/31/06
The article is much improved now that a broad range of people have had an opportunity to edit and comment. I disagree with the previous comment. While the APSAC task force has many importnat things to say, it does not support the previous commentor's thesis. Quackwatch and Advocates for Children in Therapy are two closely related fringe groups that lack credibility, unlike APSAC. DPeterson talk 23:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Isn't there a procedure for requesting the deletion of an article? Just blanking it, as "DPeterson" did, is an act of vandalism. (He has, I believe, committed other acts of vandalism, and has been warned.)
Yes, there is a need for a separate article. Attachment Therapy (note the proper name) is a separate phenomenon, especially in the United States. It is the subject of white papers and position statements by professional organizations. In addition to therapy, it encourages certain readily distinguishable child discipline (or parenting, or "teaching") techniques. It has been noticed by the media, prosecutors, and legislatures (including Congress).
Dr Mercer's original attempt at an article may indeed be more of an essay than an encyclopedic article, and consequently needs some work. I, and possibly others, would like to do that, but it should remain up for that purpose. I think the notices placed by Aplomado do more than enough to alert readers to the article's tentative editing state. We should be allowed to work on it.
I also want to protest the personal attacks here by DPeterson, who is possibly a sock puppet of Dr Becker-Weidman (they at least share the same IP address, 68.66.160.228). Attacking anyone's affiliations is specifically mentioned as a personal attack. Attacking anyone's right to comment or edit based on their alleged lack of clinical experience is diametrically opposed to Wiki philosophy. I (and separately, Dr Mercer) have had to put up with such boorishness elsewhere, but I'm going to have zero tolerance for it here, and will protest it immediately to Wiki administrators.
Larry Sarner 03:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
There already exits articles Attachment therapy Attachment disorder etc. This page is irrelevant and is being used as a forum for a fringe group, ACT, of which mercer and sarner are leaders. There was discussion and comment that this article was not Wikipedia appropriate. Larry Sarner continues to pursue personal attacks and is now taking his firght elsewhere since his attacks on the Bowlby page are not having the result he wants. His continued disrespect of Dr. Becker-Weidman and allegations that I am a "sock-puppet" when that has been shown to be false is clearly antagonistic and diametrically opposed to Wikipedia philosophy. It is a fact that neither Larry Sarner nor Mercer are clinicians, licensed mental health professionals, and have no clinical experience. DPeterson 04:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, if the article survives, I suggest that the editors here obtain a copy of the full-text of the PubMed study I included, and simply refute any misinformation with the facts. This article reads like many of its nature: they include all kinds of medical references, which may have nothing to do with the price of beans in China, but make the topic appear to have medical respectability. The way to put out *accurate* information is to get the study, and quote it. Sandy 01:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Most of what was on this page is on other pages. The Also See links can bring readers to those related pages. Also tried to make this article more appropriately neutral in its point of view. DPeterson 20:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
To include the full range of issues on this proposed page would then have to duplicate material on the previously cited Wikipedia articles or duplicate the APSAC report. A better solution would be to include a reference and brief description of the controversy on the previously mentioned page with a link to the APSAC report for details ' DPeterson 02:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)'
I see--- Attachment Therapy, capital A, capital T, is something that doesn't exist any more? But it must have at one time; Hughes said so (and so did Cline, Hage, Levy, Keith Reber, etc.). So I assume there will be no problem about a historical overview of these practices, which is certainly not included in any other topic? And I also assume that everyone contributing here objects to those old adjuvant practices such as withholding food or forcing food or water consumption? Or is there a POV problem, so that you'd all like to see discussion of the bright side of child starvation? (I know at least one of you has read Nancy Thomas, because he used to have a link to her material on his web site.) Jean Mercer 21:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you'd like to tell us when Attachment Therapy ended? Or will you say it never existed because there was no code for it? If we could revert to my statement that this was/is a CAM practice, not in the mainstream, perhaps the intention of my original statements will be made clearer. Every edit and statement made here by certain users makes it appear more likely that they have something to gain by preventing the public from hearing any criticisms of physically intrusive treatments. A number of usernames have associated themselves with the view that there is no AT, maybe even that there never was, and therefore there's no need to discuss it-- what admirable motives could be associated with these actions? This obfuscation will certainly not bring dead children back to life, and it does make it more likely that there will be more deaths and injuries in the future. Why do it? Can you explain it either to me or to yourselves? Jean Mercer 12:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I would be interested in other contributor's and editor's comments about this topic. "Attachment therapy" is a broad name for a difuse range of interventions about which there is little agreement regading definition. For example, the AMA's CPT code book has nothing for this. In addtion, I know of no insurance company that covers "attachment therapy," primarily because it is not a "recognized" form of treatment in the same way that family therapy, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, EMDR, and other forms of treatment are (having a recognized body of literature and practice). DPeterson 02:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Balnced and fair-- yes, please. Will someone kindly add some material that supports the use of physical intrusiveness and denial of ordinary physical needs? That would be most interesting. As for insurance company coverage, generally the billing states a diagnostic category such as 313.89, which is said to be treated-- in psychotherapy without medication, there would usually be no statement of the specifics of the treatment. The insurance covers treatment of reactive attachment disorder, not a specific intervention. Jean Mercer 21:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC) 'Not correct.' If you were a licensed mental health provider you'd be aware that you must state put a procedure code, such as "family therapy" on the form. In addition, the regular periodic reviews for quality and utilization purposes require detailed explainations of the specifics of the treatment and modality being used. Insurance benefits may cover the diagnosis of Reactive Attachment Disorder, or not, and will also only cover certain specific treatments and modalities. RalphLender 21:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The treatment code is extremely general, as you know. "Family therapy", for example, could cover anything from Minuchin to Martha Welch. But this is of course a red herring, aimed at evading the question about a fair and balanced presentation of abusive practices. Jean Mercer 12:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I made these edits today. Most were just some copyediting, but I removed a few statements that were showing the problems of their original author. For example:
-- Aplomado talk 00:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
It's better, but I still have a couple problems with it.
-- Aplomado talk 01:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe one problem here is the distinction between "attachment therapy" and "Attachment Therapy." Certainly most child psychotherapies today are relationship-focused, and therefore may be called "attachment therapies" for short. "Attachment Therapy" (capital A, capital T) is a term that has been used specifically for the practices I described in my draft of this page. Whereas other topics deal with the lc-lc attachment therapies, I don't see any that address the capital A, capital T group. I can't imagine that the other users in this discussion are claiming that the therapies they discuss elsewhere employ coercion and "rage reduction" and that therefore those treatments are covered elsewhere. If they are claiming this, perhaps they'd like to add material to this draft, supporting the use of holding and similar practices.
Would a change of vocabulary cover the objections that are being raised? Suppose the topic were changed to Coercive Restraint Therapies, with Attachment Therapy listed as one of the possible names? I suggest this although there is in fact a "discipline" called Attachment Therapy, with an extensive literature published primarily by small printer-ready publishing houses. It would be a simple matter to add a considerable list of references of that type.
I believe it is a mistake to simply deny the existence of these practices. The state of Georgia, for instance, is offering training to social workers that includes the Attachment Therapy belief system. The useof coercive approaches with children appears to be growing, rather than shrinking, and I believe that professionals-- and Wikipedia itself-- have some obligations to contribute to accurate public knowledge in this area. Jean Mercer 14:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
"Coercive Restrain Therapies" is a term mercer coined, which, again, has no meaning in the professional literature and is not used among licensed mental health professionals. If you make statements you must support them...what is the basis for stating that the use of coercive treatments is growing? Other than what is stated on the Advocates for Children in Therapy page? RalphLender 14:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Strange that you say that about AT, because Daniel Hughes used that term to refer to Foster Cline's methods in his 1998 book, where he spoke of those methods as acceptable if other things didn't work. The constant alteration of terms and definitions made me and others propose CRT as descriptive of the intervention, but AT is fine-- that's why I originally used it. I want this matter to be talked about because I believe the practice is harmful and undesirable. Perhaps you could explain why you don't want this message to be conveyed to the public? Or, if it's simply a matter of language, name a term that you can deal with, that covers the interventions I described in this little article. Jean Mercer 15:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I must say that the distinction between "Attachment Therapy" and "attachment therapy" has me a bit confused. I found an explanation of "attachment therapy" by Arthur Becker-Weidman here: http://www.attachmentdisorder.net/Dr._Art_Treatment.htm. Among other things he says:
"Attachment therapy is the only form of treatment that is effective with trauma-attachment disordered children. It is the only "evidence-based" treatment, meaning that there has been research published in peer-reviewed journals. Attachment therapy is primarily an experiential-based treatment, designed to facilitate experiences of safety and security so that a secure attachment may grow."—The preceding unsigned comment was added by IPaddress ( talk • contribs)..
Is "attachment therapy" something that Becker-Weidman still practices? Or is this an outdated page? How does the "attachment therapy" described by Becker-Weidman differ from "Attachment Therapy"? There does appear to be something called "Attachment Therapy," as this person claims to have studied it: http://www.dianefeinberg.com/; and these people claim to offer an "Intensive Attachment Therapy Program": http://www.attachmenttherapy.com/. At the same time, a U.S. Senate Resolution, while specifically critizing "rebirthing," also notes that several children have died from other forms of "attachment therapy": http://salazar.senate.gov/images/pdf/051018%20Rebirthing%20Resolution%20Res%20276.pdf (see the third "whereas" clause on page 2 of the document.)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by IPaddress ( talk • contribs)..
I'm very confused. Could someone please enlighten me on this issue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.233.237 ( talk • contribs) -- Unsigned comments are not helpful for this disucssion. This person appears to have a somewhat suspect history. In fact most of this person's comments regard mercer and so could be that person or related in some way. This contributor may just be a sock-puppet for ACT, or not, but in any event this is suspect as it mirrors language by ACT and by the leaders of ACT.
The previous discussion elaborates that "Attachment Therapy is not a used term. "Attachment therapy is what the APSAC report refers to. Your quote of the article by Dr. Becker-Weidman is on a site and appears to be many years old, so its currency and value is unclear at this time. Probably a better references are his current articles and the book he co-edited, if you are wanted to cite his current thinking and practice. DPeterson 01:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, the comments are provocative and appear to be a soapbox harrangue. I suggest that such inflamatory comments be edited by an administrator. DPeterson 02:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
So, your remaining hidden does raise the spectre of your merely being a sock-puppet and spokesperson for mercer (or relative of mercer?), ACT, and other leaders of ACT; We just don't know. This practice of continually making accusations and going on and on with the same accusation is quite similiar to the tactic of other leaders of ACT on Wiki pages. DPeterson 02:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
You are now misrepresenting the facts. The senate resolution speaks to "rebirthing." Show me anyting in Dr. Becker-Weidman's article or materials that promotes "rebirthing." I am sure you cannot. Your comments sound strikingly like those of sarner or other leaders of ACT. Using this forum as a soapbox is counter to the intention of Wikipedia and I encourage you to not use this as a platform to promote a provocative or fringe POV as that is not in the spirit of consensus building, which is a corner stone or Wikipedia. DPeterson 02:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
So, your remaining hidden does raise the spectre of your merely being a sock-puppet and spokesperson for mercer (or relative of mercer?), ACT, and other leaders of ACT; We just don't know. DPeterson 02:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
It was pretty clear what was being discussed until someone edited it to make it ambiguous, presumably with the goal of supporting deletion of the whole topic. Jean Mercer 12:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I see that the reference by Jean Mercer was deleted. Self-promotion is not allowed in encyclopedia articles. I agree with this deletion. SamDavidson 13:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This is certainly an interesting approach. By the line of reasoning above, in which one can't cite one's own work, it would appear that only people who have done no work in a field can write for Wikipedia-- if they identify themselves. Those who refuse to identify themselves can of course cite themselves freely. Perhaps I should have imitated Jane Austen and signed "A Lady".
For those who are interested in my expertise, I have provided a link to my c.v. below (in a later part of this discussion). I leave it to you to judge.
In any case, all these issues are simply red herrings to conceal the fact that DPeterson & Co. want to prevent the public from having information about holding therapy,Dyadic Synchronous Bonding, Prolonged Parent-Child Embrace, or any of the flock of names I've categorized as Attachment Therapy, following Foster Cline, and, of course, Daniel Hughes. Jean Mercer 12:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
My first attempt at a clarification failed miserably, so I'm going to try one more time with a slightly altered version of my question. There does appear to be something called "Attachment Therapy," as this person claims to have studied it: http://www.dianefeinberg.com/; and these people claim to offer an "Intensive Attachment Therapy Program": http://www.attachmenttherapy.com/. At the same time, a U.S. Senate Resolution, while specifically critizing "rebirthing," also notes that several children have died from "other forms of attachment therapy": http://salazar.senate.gov/images/pdf/051018%20Rebirthing%20Resolution%20Res%20276.pdf (see the third "whereas" clause on page 2 of the document.) 69.170.233.237 21:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Could anyone offer some thoughts on what the "attachment therapy" and "Attachment Therapy" referred to in these documents are? 69.170.233.237 21:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
"Attachment therapy" also sometimes called "holding therapy" is an 'ambiguous' term which is sometimes used to describe a form of treatment for behavioral difficulties in children suffering from attachment disorder. However, because 'the term has no common meaning', its actual definition is unclear. As such, it has 'little commonly agreed upong meaning' in the professional literature. For example, it is not a term found in the Amereican Medial Association's Physician's Current Procedural Manual. A number of advocacy groups, such as Advocates For Children in Therapy have undertaken to label nearly all treatments for children with disorders of attachment as "attachment therapy" and attempt to discredit those therapies. Some components of "attachment therapy" have been disapproved by a task force of the American Professional Society on Abuse of children (APSAC). (Chaffin et al.,2006, PMID 16382093). Specifically, the task force addressed coercive methods and practices as inappropriate for treatment. So, who knows what those documents mean by this ill-defined and ambiguous term. DPeterson 21:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a citation for the reference, but maybe someone else can provide that. Otherwise, maybe just a link to the other page may suffice. Perhaps Mercer (IP 69.170.233.237) could provide one, or other contributors. DPeterson 23:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, whoever that is who's writing, I'm not in Florida. I'm in New Jersey, where I live and work. I sign my name (although occasionally I seem to have flubbed my sign-in), I'm not afraid to have people identify me-- and if you'd all like to examine my c.v. it's at http://www.jeanmercer.org/jeanmercercv.pdf. You are in NY and your son is in FL. RalphLender 19:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Sir, do you think I don't know where I live? Jean Mercer 14:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
User 74.225...may be mercer's son (Miami Fla again) and she lives in NJ. OK, good to know. DPeterson 17:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Let's leave the material up there for a few days and see what develops. If a citation can be provided that might help. What do other editors think? DPeterson 00:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Pro:
Con:
No Opinion:
DPeterson 00:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe this issue is settled. Citations have been provided to support the material. RalphLender 19:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if the following might be helpful for this topic. First, a page on the "History and Origins" of attachment therapy. Questions such as these could be answered: Who coined the term? What did it mean to that person? What was involved in the practice of attachment therapy at this time? Second, a page on the "Subsequent Development" of attachment therapy, focusing on these questions: How did attachment therapy develop over time? What kinds of practices were involved? At what point did harmful practices such as "rebirthing" enter into it? Who were some of the groups performing it? What does the term mean to those who still practice it now? 69.170.233.237 23:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you write something and post it here and then editors can comment on the value of what you prepare. DPeterson 00:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
'Pro:'I have asked for assistance from WikiProject Medicine on this topic and on Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy, where the nature of evidence-based treatment is an issue. I would like to hold off on any decisions or editing until someone from that group becomes involved. Jean Mercer 12:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
1.
'Con:'
'1' See my points above on why it may not be possible to answer those questions. The subject areas is ill defined, with no clear meaning to the terms and therefore no agreement. May be difficult or impossible to create material with a 'NPOV' DPeterson 01:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
'2' I have agree with the reasoning of DPeterson on this. The term is very vague and has no common body of knowledge or clear defination as a treatment modality in the same way that family therapy does or play therapy, for example.
'No Opinion:'
1. DPeterson 00:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've added some references to work that specifies a set of treaments by using the terms "attachment therapy" in quotation marks or Attachment Therapy with caps. I tried to remove the quotation marks that did not refer to this type of treatment. Much more editing is needed-- the references to Lieberman and so on are really irrelevant -- but the advice of the WikiProject Medicine people should be useful. I would appreciate it if people would not delete the references to my work, which followed other authors in the use of the terms. I have not deleted the previously added references, but someone should.Perhaps in writing this there should be some thought given to the potential reader who would be very confused as things stand. Jean Mercer 20:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The references to Lieberman are quite relevant to make a clear distinction between an ill-defined vague "approach" and other approaches that are clearly defined and unrelated. Your material could lead a naive reader to think that Lieberman and other's are using coercive and unacceptable methods since "attachment therapy" and therapy using attachment principles or based in attachment theory are so similiar. RalphLender 23:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I already responded elsewhere, as well as earlier on this page. Citing is not promoting-- if it were, I would never have cited Monica Krenner or Terry Levy, or Becker-Weidman for that matter. And I have disclosed my entire puny commercial interest. Your turn!
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Attachment therapy/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
Last edited at 19:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:08, 2 May 2016 (UTC)