This is an informal Poll, attempting to clarify community opinion on the contentious spelling of... God or god, particularly as used in this article, but generally as used elsewhere. I will attempt to place the divergent opinions here as clearly as possible. If you don't like how I arrange it, discuss that here:
hey user:snoyes... if your going to place that link to dictionary.com
"Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.", I may have to change my vote ;) Have you reviewed it? IMO it does not accurately express the diverging opinion (removing "God"). If that was the usage on the atheism page, I would have agreed to it long ago.... Sam Spade
I also object to the use of "will" in either proposal (as in will use lower case "g"'s), as it is overly contentious. Sam Spade 05:06, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The only objection that comes to mind at the moment is that "refers" shouldn't be apostrophized in the first option. :) Bryan 05:44, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
What's with this new option suddenly appearing, without any comment or even an indication in the edit summaries? As far as I can tell, it's not really relevant to the issue at hand (whether God should be used here, in the atheism article), and overlaps somewhat with one of the existing options besides. Bryan 17:00, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I agree, and request suggestions for new poll options. All voters from the previous poll can (and will) be contacted once the new poll is designed. Too many changes occured thruout. For example, after snoyes edits to the options, I can't say I entirely disagree with the alternative presented (to simplify, I agree w dictionary.com's wording). If thats really the opposition view, I see no need for a poll, and am rather inclined to take the opportunity to agree on a concensus. Sam Spade 01:54, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"God, as a concept, is more than just one version of it" That sums up my opinion pretty well. What makes you think God refers only to a christian diety? Christains use "Jehova" and "YHWH" among other names. Sam Spade 06:08, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Erm, I haven't voted because I'm a bit confused. The wording on the poll question sort of seems to converge in that I could vote yes for both, and some of the responses seem to suggest the same. How is it different to say that God means the one Christian god and god means any other god or gods?
Who fucked up the poll. There are now more options than last time I looked. Any data obtained is useless now. I think someone is trying to sabatage this poll. mydogategodshat 01:41, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand the difference between the second and third options. The sources cited in the second option seem to be consistent with the principle stated in the third option. I would have thought a capital letter is used wherever the word is grammatically a proper noun. -- Tim Starling 05:42, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)
I don't care whether God or god is used. Which poll question am I supposed to agree too ? -- Derek Ross 06:35, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There are lots of suns, and at the same time the Sun is the center of the the Earth's planetary system (see Sun and its capitalization). This is the usual capitalization system which should be used here as well (as WP does neither assume nor deny the existence of one or several deities). I see no point in voting on this: it is just a grammatical problem. Pfortuny 21:15, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think the main problem Sam's having is based on his assertion "God refers to a monotheistic (not necessarily the abrahamic) deity, who is distinct from, and not included in, the words god and gods." During the month of arguments on talk:atheism he said at several points that he didn't think God was a god. I'm not really sure what he thinks God is if not a god, but I guess it's a bigger issue for him than simply one of grammar. I do agree that this poll is silly considering how clear the consensus is, but such is Wikipedia. :) Bryan 00:25, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I would maybe agree to something like that that didn't involve the definitions above, but rather created 2 new ones, which a concensus could be agreed opon. I get the impression that if we were to honestly portray the options, we might not need the poll, and might find our concensus forthwith. I have said repeatedly that my requests simply involve compatability w basic sources of info, like Dictionary.com. If you use the version they have, and consistantly, I (and I would assume most everybody else, from what I see above) would have concensus. That is of course if this is not a political/personality debate, rather than what is best for the article ;) Clearly I have many doubts after the above circumstances, but I am always ready to do what is best for the article. Sam Spade 19:08, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC) Sam Spade 19:08, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I disagree entirely w your allegation of inconsistancy against dictionary.com, and I would be interested to hear what they have to say about that. I wonder if theres any chance of getting some outside experts involved? I am clearly less than thrilled w our current "expertise" ;) Is there any precedent for such on the wiki? What happens when the majority is wrong, due to their over-riding bias? Wiki needs editors!!! Sam Spade 19:20, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Umm... your count is completely wrong? What gives? Sam Spade 19:21, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I didn't think anybody bought into that bunk tannin put in about the last 2 options being the same, did they? Because they most certainly arn't. Sam Spade 19:22, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I prefer to avoid edit wars, or I would have deleted that a long time ago. But given tannis history w me, I didn't think it was worth the confrontation. Anyways, its a complete joke and fraud to claim the 3rd and fourth catagories somehow agree. Sam Spade 19:24, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Also, my opinion is clearly to reach concensus regarding new options, not to hold a run off. Be careful not to misunderstand, and assume I support a run off election, when I (along w so many others) validly object to the proposals as written. Sam Spade 21:48, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This whole thing is foolish. The term "God" (big g) refers to any conceived monotheistic god such as the Creator. The term "god" is a more general term, which may or may not include the specific Big G fella.
Atheists insist on little g for the Abrahamic God, because they want to ridicule the idea of a Creator. And they have every right to their disdain and desire to ridicule. But this is an encyclopedia, not a debating ground. Moreover, it is an English-language encyclopedia, so we should follow established usage.
Say that Atheists reject the concept of monotheism, including the concept of a monotheistic creator. And avoid mentioning "God" except in quotations attributed to advocates.
If some writer wants to say god does not exists a la e.e. cummings, by all means quote their lowercase usage. If we can find some atheist who says that God does not exists, quote him too.
Why make such a big deal?
Are you hoping that Wikipedia will take a stand endorsing the idea that God does not exist? Or that God does exist? I thought we agreed years ago not to fight over this. Sheesh. -- Uncle Ed 22:00, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Wow, I have to say I am shocked at how much I agree with Ed here. Just goes to show how matters of personal grumpiness have little or nothing to do with factual accuracy. Sam Spade 02:33, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well put, Ed. Banno 10:14, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There are many acceptable names for my God. I will list some of them for educational purposes. Brahman Allah existence Sanatana Dharma Absolute Infinite All, and of course, the Great " I AM". Those who know my God are not few in number. You have a couple of options as I see it. You can define atheism in a way that is essentially meaningless. You can define atheism in a way that is inaccurate. Or, you can define it as the rejection of God, Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin. Sam Spade 03:00, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I upset you, and I hope we have resolved matters. Sam Spade 03:49, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It appears consensus has been achieved, largely in thanks to Eloquence. I am moving this to old polls, and after a week or so, will again move it to closed polls. If this is disagreeable to you, let me know. Sam Spade 20:24, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Look at the article itself. The problem is now resolved. Sam Spade 20:42, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This is an informal Poll, attempting to clarify community opinion on the contentious spelling of... God or god, particularly as used in this article, but generally as used elsewhere. I will attempt to place the divergent opinions here as clearly as possible. If you don't like how I arrange it, discuss that here:
hey user:snoyes... if your going to place that link to dictionary.com
"Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.", I may have to change my vote ;) Have you reviewed it? IMO it does not accurately express the diverging opinion (removing "God"). If that was the usage on the atheism page, I would have agreed to it long ago.... Sam Spade
I also object to the use of "will" in either proposal (as in will use lower case "g"'s), as it is overly contentious. Sam Spade 05:06, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The only objection that comes to mind at the moment is that "refers" shouldn't be apostrophized in the first option. :) Bryan 05:44, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
What's with this new option suddenly appearing, without any comment or even an indication in the edit summaries? As far as I can tell, it's not really relevant to the issue at hand (whether God should be used here, in the atheism article), and overlaps somewhat with one of the existing options besides. Bryan 17:00, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I agree, and request suggestions for new poll options. All voters from the previous poll can (and will) be contacted once the new poll is designed. Too many changes occured thruout. For example, after snoyes edits to the options, I can't say I entirely disagree with the alternative presented (to simplify, I agree w dictionary.com's wording). If thats really the opposition view, I see no need for a poll, and am rather inclined to take the opportunity to agree on a concensus. Sam Spade 01:54, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"God, as a concept, is more than just one version of it" That sums up my opinion pretty well. What makes you think God refers only to a christian diety? Christains use "Jehova" and "YHWH" among other names. Sam Spade 06:08, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Erm, I haven't voted because I'm a bit confused. The wording on the poll question sort of seems to converge in that I could vote yes for both, and some of the responses seem to suggest the same. How is it different to say that God means the one Christian god and god means any other god or gods?
Who fucked up the poll. There are now more options than last time I looked. Any data obtained is useless now. I think someone is trying to sabatage this poll. mydogategodshat 01:41, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand the difference between the second and third options. The sources cited in the second option seem to be consistent with the principle stated in the third option. I would have thought a capital letter is used wherever the word is grammatically a proper noun. -- Tim Starling 05:42, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)
I don't care whether God or god is used. Which poll question am I supposed to agree too ? -- Derek Ross 06:35, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There are lots of suns, and at the same time the Sun is the center of the the Earth's planetary system (see Sun and its capitalization). This is the usual capitalization system which should be used here as well (as WP does neither assume nor deny the existence of one or several deities). I see no point in voting on this: it is just a grammatical problem. Pfortuny 21:15, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think the main problem Sam's having is based on his assertion "God refers to a monotheistic (not necessarily the abrahamic) deity, who is distinct from, and not included in, the words god and gods." During the month of arguments on talk:atheism he said at several points that he didn't think God was a god. I'm not really sure what he thinks God is if not a god, but I guess it's a bigger issue for him than simply one of grammar. I do agree that this poll is silly considering how clear the consensus is, but such is Wikipedia. :) Bryan 00:25, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I would maybe agree to something like that that didn't involve the definitions above, but rather created 2 new ones, which a concensus could be agreed opon. I get the impression that if we were to honestly portray the options, we might not need the poll, and might find our concensus forthwith. I have said repeatedly that my requests simply involve compatability w basic sources of info, like Dictionary.com. If you use the version they have, and consistantly, I (and I would assume most everybody else, from what I see above) would have concensus. That is of course if this is not a political/personality debate, rather than what is best for the article ;) Clearly I have many doubts after the above circumstances, but I am always ready to do what is best for the article. Sam Spade 19:08, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC) Sam Spade 19:08, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I disagree entirely w your allegation of inconsistancy against dictionary.com, and I would be interested to hear what they have to say about that. I wonder if theres any chance of getting some outside experts involved? I am clearly less than thrilled w our current "expertise" ;) Is there any precedent for such on the wiki? What happens when the majority is wrong, due to their over-riding bias? Wiki needs editors!!! Sam Spade 19:20, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Umm... your count is completely wrong? What gives? Sam Spade 19:21, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I didn't think anybody bought into that bunk tannin put in about the last 2 options being the same, did they? Because they most certainly arn't. Sam Spade 19:22, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I prefer to avoid edit wars, or I would have deleted that a long time ago. But given tannis history w me, I didn't think it was worth the confrontation. Anyways, its a complete joke and fraud to claim the 3rd and fourth catagories somehow agree. Sam Spade 19:24, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Also, my opinion is clearly to reach concensus regarding new options, not to hold a run off. Be careful not to misunderstand, and assume I support a run off election, when I (along w so many others) validly object to the proposals as written. Sam Spade 21:48, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This whole thing is foolish. The term "God" (big g) refers to any conceived monotheistic god such as the Creator. The term "god" is a more general term, which may or may not include the specific Big G fella.
Atheists insist on little g for the Abrahamic God, because they want to ridicule the idea of a Creator. And they have every right to their disdain and desire to ridicule. But this is an encyclopedia, not a debating ground. Moreover, it is an English-language encyclopedia, so we should follow established usage.
Say that Atheists reject the concept of monotheism, including the concept of a monotheistic creator. And avoid mentioning "God" except in quotations attributed to advocates.
If some writer wants to say god does not exists a la e.e. cummings, by all means quote their lowercase usage. If we can find some atheist who says that God does not exists, quote him too.
Why make such a big deal?
Are you hoping that Wikipedia will take a stand endorsing the idea that God does not exist? Or that God does exist? I thought we agreed years ago not to fight over this. Sheesh. -- Uncle Ed 22:00, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Wow, I have to say I am shocked at how much I agree with Ed here. Just goes to show how matters of personal grumpiness have little or nothing to do with factual accuracy. Sam Spade 02:33, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well put, Ed. Banno 10:14, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There are many acceptable names for my God. I will list some of them for educational purposes. Brahman Allah existence Sanatana Dharma Absolute Infinite All, and of course, the Great " I AM". Those who know my God are not few in number. You have a couple of options as I see it. You can define atheism in a way that is essentially meaningless. You can define atheism in a way that is inaccurate. Or, you can define it as the rejection of God, Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin. Sam Spade 03:00, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I upset you, and I hope we have resolved matters. Sam Spade 03:49, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It appears consensus has been achieved, largely in thanks to Eloquence. I am moving this to old polls, and after a week or so, will again move it to closed polls. If this is disagreeable to you, let me know. Sam Spade 20:24, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Look at the article itself. The problem is now resolved. Sam Spade 20:42, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)