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I am adding some discussion about objections to this Creed.
-- LeandroGFCDutra 22:43, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Aloysius Patacsil 20:35, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
Does verse 23 have a filioque addition? Or was it always like that? -- Audiovideo 13:45, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
User:172.197.242.40 deleted "descended into hell". I reverted that change based on [1]. There will be multiple english-langauge translations, so we might want to instead call out variations in a discussion section at the bottom. User:172.197.242.40, can you provide a reference to a version that lacks the "descened" clause? (Which would prompt a start of this section?) Johnh 23:13, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
User:172.199.92.250 deteled the "descended into hell" clause, just as the previous anon user did. There's not much use in constantly going back and forth. Since the text is a translation, it seems much more fruitful to simply list alternatives rather than argue (or revert-war) back and forth. I therefore added the ICET text (since that is the only text about which I know the translation history) as one widely used translation. I strongly encourage others with alternate translations to add them in addition (before, after sideways :-) to this text instead of altering it. My hope is that this will give a fair, NPOV view of a wide set of reasonable viewpoints and avoid fruitless reversions.
I'm of course open to alternative, constructive suggestions. Johnh 02:34, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I should add, although I changed the prior translation to the ICET translation, I did so only because I don't know the correct source or citation for the prior translation. If someone can offer it, I'm all for putting that translation back on the page in addition to the ICET version. Johnh 02:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I reverted Cmdrjameson's change capitalizing catholic. While often capitalized when refering to the Roman Catholic Church, my understanding is that in the creed, the word is used in the sense of "universal", in which case it is not capitalized. Johnh 03:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
In the nineteenth century, I think the Athanasian Creed became controversial in some circles in America and Western Europe because of its claims to exclusivity of salvation (I once read that some of the Bronte sisters didn't like it for that reason, but I don't really have any sources at hand now). It would be nice if this could be mentioned on the page and placed in context. AnonMoos 03:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Does the "Western Church" mean the Roman Catholic Church, or does it mean all (Nicene) western churches, including, for instance, Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Methodist, etc.? john k 19:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
It would interesting if an Arabic version of the Athanasian Creed could be found. This way, it could be used to reduce misconceptions about the Holy Trinity among Muslims. ADM ( talk) 19:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
What's the point of having the whole creed in Latin, without an English translation? It seems inappropriate for a quarter of an English article to be unreadible to an Englsih speaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.79.30.55 ( talk) 20:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I am finding a mixture of sources, of authority all over the map, for the first word of the Latin. Some say "Quicunque", while others say "Quicumque". Can we find a definitive source for this? Schaff and the 1979 American BCP opt for "Quicunque", for what that's worth. Mangoe ( talk) 19:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I really don't see that we need equivocations on the word "catholic", or a raw data-dump from Schaff (who was a lot more concerned about producing a scholarly apparatus than an overall readable translation). Note that one feature (the glossing of the word "hell" as "Hades, spirit-world") appears to reflect Schaff's own personal theological positions, not true scholarship, which is why it was excluded from the previous version of the article (as briefly mentioned above)... AnonMoos ( talk) 17:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does anyone else find the translation of the second line very awkwardly worded? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.134.169 ( talk) 22:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
What is meant by "making negative statements about the people's fate: 'They that have done good shall go into life everlasting: and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.'?" does negative mean they are stating something is false, r do they mean negative as in bad? The first sense i don't think applies here. I'm confused. 70.34.80.119 ( talk) 20:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
That edit falls under MOS:ENGVAR, and must follow that policy. AnonMoos ( talk) 21:32, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||
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I am adding some discussion about objections to this Creed.
-- LeandroGFCDutra 22:43, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Aloysius Patacsil 20:35, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
Does verse 23 have a filioque addition? Or was it always like that? -- Audiovideo 13:45, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
User:172.197.242.40 deleted "descended into hell". I reverted that change based on [1]. There will be multiple english-langauge translations, so we might want to instead call out variations in a discussion section at the bottom. User:172.197.242.40, can you provide a reference to a version that lacks the "descened" clause? (Which would prompt a start of this section?) Johnh 23:13, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
User:172.199.92.250 deteled the "descended into hell" clause, just as the previous anon user did. There's not much use in constantly going back and forth. Since the text is a translation, it seems much more fruitful to simply list alternatives rather than argue (or revert-war) back and forth. I therefore added the ICET text (since that is the only text about which I know the translation history) as one widely used translation. I strongly encourage others with alternate translations to add them in addition (before, after sideways :-) to this text instead of altering it. My hope is that this will give a fair, NPOV view of a wide set of reasonable viewpoints and avoid fruitless reversions.
I'm of course open to alternative, constructive suggestions. Johnh 02:34, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I should add, although I changed the prior translation to the ICET translation, I did so only because I don't know the correct source or citation for the prior translation. If someone can offer it, I'm all for putting that translation back on the page in addition to the ICET version. Johnh 02:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I reverted Cmdrjameson's change capitalizing catholic. While often capitalized when refering to the Roman Catholic Church, my understanding is that in the creed, the word is used in the sense of "universal", in which case it is not capitalized. Johnh 03:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
In the nineteenth century, I think the Athanasian Creed became controversial in some circles in America and Western Europe because of its claims to exclusivity of salvation (I once read that some of the Bronte sisters didn't like it for that reason, but I don't really have any sources at hand now). It would be nice if this could be mentioned on the page and placed in context. AnonMoos 03:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Does the "Western Church" mean the Roman Catholic Church, or does it mean all (Nicene) western churches, including, for instance, Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Methodist, etc.? john k 19:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
It would interesting if an Arabic version of the Athanasian Creed could be found. This way, it could be used to reduce misconceptions about the Holy Trinity among Muslims. ADM ( talk) 19:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
What's the point of having the whole creed in Latin, without an English translation? It seems inappropriate for a quarter of an English article to be unreadible to an Englsih speaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.79.30.55 ( talk) 20:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I am finding a mixture of sources, of authority all over the map, for the first word of the Latin. Some say "Quicunque", while others say "Quicumque". Can we find a definitive source for this? Schaff and the 1979 American BCP opt for "Quicunque", for what that's worth. Mangoe ( talk) 19:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I really don't see that we need equivocations on the word "catholic", or a raw data-dump from Schaff (who was a lot more concerned about producing a scholarly apparatus than an overall readable translation). Note that one feature (the glossing of the word "hell" as "Hades, spirit-world") appears to reflect Schaff's own personal theological positions, not true scholarship, which is why it was excluded from the previous version of the article (as briefly mentioned above)... AnonMoos ( talk) 17:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does anyone else find the translation of the second line very awkwardly worded? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.134.169 ( talk) 22:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
What is meant by "making negative statements about the people's fate: 'They that have done good shall go into life everlasting: and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.'?" does negative mean they are stating something is false, r do they mean negative as in bad? The first sense i don't think applies here. I'm confused. 70.34.80.119 ( talk) 20:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
That edit falls under MOS:ENGVAR, and must follow that policy. AnonMoos ( talk) 21:32, 16 May 2022 (UTC)