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I've recently found out that my friend has a brother with Asperger Syndrome. Whats special about them is that they're identical twins. The cause of Asperger Syndrome cant be only hereditary if my friend doesn't have Asperger Syndrome. Whats up with that? 80.178.76.191 15:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
this obscure article is longer than osteoporosis or alzheimers disease.
If it bothers you, go write longer articles on osteoporosis and alzheimer's disease. Or were you wanting to split up the article on Asperger's into some subarticles? If the main aim of your statement is to get us to reduce the size of this article, I don't agree.
Hello,
As an individual with Asperger’s Syndrome, and as an individual who has read several comprehensive books on the subject (including book written by Tony Attwood, world expert on Asperger’s Syndrome), I was surprised to find some ‘facts’ here that had absolutely no references and that I had never, ever read in any book (even autobiographies of those with Asperger’s Syndrome). These comments included:
“Lack of appreciation of humor - although they may grasp jokes at an intellectual level, and rarely even excel at making jokes, they fail to appreciate its emotional worth. Sometimes, their smiles and laughter may appear unnatural.”
What? Tony Attwood even said in his book that some with Asperger’s develop a great sense of humor usually based on their realizing that they take many things literally (I know I definitely fit this category). In addition, many people with Asperger’s, including myself, love and appreciate hearing jokes just as much as any one else.
“Lack of embarrassment - although persons with AS have an intellectual understanding of shame and embarrassment, they are unable to grasp concepts on an emotional level.”
Also untrue, many, if not most, are able to emotionally grasp the concept of embarrassment (even intuitively from feeling the emotion at an early age), though they may not express the emotion in a conventional way.
“Financial imprudence - although some people with AS can manage their own finances, they usually appear to be careless or even reckless, with money. In most cases they require the assistance of others in managing their own finances and making financial decisions. “
I do not have the slightest idea as to were whoever posted this received the idea from. I have never read it in any book or on the web, and people I know with Asperger’s are by far some of the most financially responsible people I have ever met, due to their above average ability to keep emotions and reason separate and their ease with doing what they feel is morally correct.
Willis first hand experience. I deleted all four of those. But I'd like to discuss it. Sykee 07:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is really disgusting. I have an IQ of 140 (that puts me in the top .6% of the human race in intelligence) and I am flabergasted by the negative, condescending tone of this horrible article. "Aspergers" have a capacity for humor (I definitely do) and you can't put them all into one category. Not all Aspergers are literal, scientific thinkers. I am very imaginitive and creative. I write fiction, and have excelled at writing for a newspaper at only age 18. I'm not going to say I'm superior to neurotypicals, but I am equal. Give Aspergers the respect they deserve and change this hideous, disgusting article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JJAC116 ( talk • contribs)
Has there ever been succesful people with AS? C.bonnick 21:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you it really helped, so people with AS can be successful. You have put a smile on my face. C.bonnick 10:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash 00:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a parent in my classroom who is a respected board member and works for the EPA. His daughter is lovely, he's happily married, and he has AS. I also know people with AS who have graduated college and others who are very successful in the field of IT.
Just out of curiosity, wasn't Einstein thought to have AS? What about Bill Gates? I remember reading about him showing signs; unfortunately I can't source this, but it's a suggestion. -=PhotoN=- 15:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Jeopardy champion Ken Jennings has a mild form of AS, and was very successful with that! (Of course, memorizing trivia tends to be a strong suit among many people with AS!) Another success would be Kurt Cobain of the band Nirvana; who has been speculated to have had a form of AS, which was unfortunately misdiagnosed while he was alive. Inventor and electricity/radio pioneer Nicola Tesla definitely had AS, and we benefit from his discoveries and inventions each day! -- Dulcimerist 22:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Archimedes, brilliant mathematician and scientist of antiquity, may have had AS. His later counterpart Sir Isacc Newton may have as well. These might be too speculative to post, however. -- Dulcimerist 23:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
In the spirit of positivity, I propose a new section: Aspergers' traits in fiction.
The section would include Aspergers behaviors and characteristics as plot devices, as well as fictional characters that most people identify as exemplifying Aspergian personality traits -- as long as specific behaviors can be cited as typifying "Aspergers syndrome". This would allow incorporation of both pop and historical fiction that employs Aspergian behavior as a device to move a plot forwards (or is that backwards? <-- har (aspie humor) :> ). Note that Aspergers traits are often used in fiction as a positive form of comic relief.
For example:
Would this be acceptable? (btw, next time you're watching tv, watch for an Aspie character or characteristic and add it on)
--
Renice
13:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
[Hell, if you're going to give me the cake, you ought to let me eat the damned thing! :> ]
I think the big distinction is, while downs syndrome is (i suppose) more-or-less comprehensible to people (at least in outward appearance), it is very difficult to walk away from a discription of Asperger's with any sense of what aspergian thought is *like*.
It is essentially a lack of 'integration functions'. Information is not automatically weaved together and synthesized. For example, NT's have face-recognition algorithms that take a million pixels of data and do an instant face lookup. Aspie's in general don't have that capacity.
Those integrating algorithms make lots of probabilistic *assumptions*, which are usually true, but not always. For instance, a pair of twins could trip up an NT easily, whereas an Aspie is much more likely to notice a small scar on their left cheek has disappeared.
Aspies sort of come at everything with a completely clean slate. I think it is more precise to say they are "context-blind" rather than "mind-blind". This is usually a problem for the aspie, but sometimes creative leaps lie beyond the scope of accustomed context, so it has its advantages. This clean slate - lack of context - can be a) misunderstanding, or b) humorous, or c) revolutionary.
To illustrate, a) Once my girlfriend asked me, "do you like spanish olives with egg salad?"
I said, "Oh yes. Very nice." Later I took a bite of my sandwich, "Eeeeeeeeeeew!"
She said, what's wrong?
I said, "I didn't know you meant IN my egg salad !!" (OK this is a little bit of B) Virtually anyone else would have concluded with 99.99% certainty what she really meant. The aspie brain doesn't make that assumption and has no way of knowing that others would."
b) A classic joke has a historian and a mathematician on a plane. The historian looks out and sees a brown cow, and writes dutifully in his notebook, "There is a brown cow in Nebraska."
The mathematician sees the same thing and says, "there exists at least one cow currently in Nebraska, it is brown on top. Unless I'm dreaming. Or you are."
c) The notions of time and space were unchanged since euclid. They were considered to be undefinable for the most part, they could be described, but thought to be first terms inherent to existence itself. It is very Aspergian for Einstein to say,
"Time is what a clock measures." From first term to the behavior of a machine.
"Space is what a ruler measures." Again, to a simpler machine.
Then he asked the question, "If i have two identical clocks, keep one here, and mail another one to pittsburg and have it returned here, will they read the same?" His genius was not that he thought of a new thing - it was that he UNthought something. He UNthought the implicit context of time and space, threw it out, and asked "what *instruments* are we talking about? And what exactly do we think they do? Are we sure?"
An NT's context-engine is unconscious, so he doesn't know what it is he has assumed. The aspie doesn't have one.
--- This also, perhaps, accounts for the fact we tend to write ... er ... much longer descriptions of things. We can't guess what context is normally understood.
Anyway, I think this can be conveyed best by example, and the examples are often funny.
CeilingCrash 20:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I would support this as well. Well-known examples/metaphors for AS would be quite useful to help illustrate to people what AS is like. Each example would have to be explained, of course. An obvious one would be Rain Man, from the movie "Rain Man," who was character portrayed as having AS. Ted Danson's character from the television series "Becker" might also fit here. --
Dulcimerist
02:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I think rather than AS Raymond Babbitt was portrayed as someone with a deeply autistic life - a true autistic savant. if you look at Kim Peek's page on Wikipedia you will see he has many other problems to face. Kim's father has said he worries about who will look after Kim when he dies. People with AS are generally able to look after themselves. Soarhead77 21:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I support your idea, however I suggest you start the article with a disclaimer of some sort, saying something along the line's of "the traits of the characters below may not be entirely due to AS, and may be the accumulation of other factors and personality traits(etc)" in order that some characteristics may be inadvertently associated with AS TheJackle 00:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
viz http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2988647.stm - I am sorry to hear that Aspies don't have a sense of humour... -- Ndaisley 08:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
the all-too-familiar verifiable source problem :
The referred source, kathy marshak, has a degree from the Fielding Institute, a distance-learning school http://www.fielding.edu/, a PhD in Psychology.
Their PhD in Psychology degrees are not accredited by the American Psychological Association (APA), in contrast to their PhD in Clinical Psychology, which is accredited by the APA.
This seems a grey area I don't really know what to make of.
More to the point, her website makes no reference to anything she's published in an academic source, so the section seems a wash.
Thoughts?
As an aside, she is part of the aston-linehan-singer mutual endorsement ring dedicated to eradicating the scourge of scientific research in our lifetime. She is similarly possessed of the same disturbing fixation on MALES with asperger's.
from her FAQ on Asperger's : http://www.kmarshack.com/therapy/asperger/faq.html
" What kind of parents are people with Asperger Syndrome? We are just learning about this tragedy from adults coming forward to tell about being raised by AS parents"
CeilingCrash 10:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
What do y'all think about a new section concerning the long term development of children on the spectrum?
"One central finding of the study, said Dr. Coplan, is that children in the normal range of intelligence (an IQ of 70 or above) show significant improvement in their ASD symptoms over time. "We can offer the hopeful message to parents that many children with ASD will improve as part of the natural course of the condition," he said. This finding reinforced impressions by Dr. Coplan and many previous researchers about clinical outcomes for children with ASD."
http://stokes.chop.edu/publications/press/?ID=181
This is one of a crop of such studies, serious long-term data collection (in the US anyway) didn't start until about 10 years,and is now coming to fruition.
This information also serves to make people weary of the snake-oil cures which may be taking credit for this natural progression.
CeilingCrash 19:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone mentioned in this section that there have been scientific studies on the causes of autism. None of these seem to be in the article yet, so I did some Googling and came up with these potential sources:
http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/research/CeFAR/default.htm http://www.cmu.edu/PR/releases04/040727_autism.html http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1235486
Could these be useful? Lostvoice 09:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash
In this talk section (above somewhere), Judy Singer claims she coined the term "neurodiversity." The wiki article on Neurodiversity credits her for this in a paper published in 1999.
I discovered her claim is false, that it was coined in 1998 by Harvey Blume. I have corrected the article to give him proper credit. If anyone (especially Ms Singer) wishes to comment, please see Talk:Neurodiversity.
CeilingCrash 22:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to keep the language moderated and avoiding the "getting rid of" kind of conversation. I think talking about removing Asperger's is overly negative. I am not fixed on this. Alex Jackl 12:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
All of this could by BS launched by "Big Pharma". See Jeff Rense's website for more about "diseases". 205.240.144.220 06:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
What do you do when you're an adult and find out that every problem described with AS nails every major problem in your own life? Rhudi 04:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Realize that you've probably figured out how to survive anyway and laugh at people that need all the stuff we don't? I mean honestly, there's not much to do when we're diagnosed early, forget about later on in life. Unless you're incredibly stupid you'll have known for awhile you;re odd and been coping with it. The fact that now we can be diagnosed just means it's easier for NTs to sort out the world.
Get yourself tested. If the test is positive, as Alex mentions, that information can lead to valuable coping skills and explanations. In some cases, medication is also helpful. Getting tested, especially for an adult, takes a bit of doing - I would recommend an expert in autistic disorders, no general practitioner or psychiatrist should moonlight in Asperger's by checking off DSM symptoms - and they may not know that.
Most of all, the test can lead to self-acceptance and self-understanding. And what's better than that?
"Autism rocks." CeilingCrash 23:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I hate to jump ship but early on i was diagnosed with aspergers 3 times. Amazingly i outgrew it. I am no longer diagnosed with anything and i live a completely uneventful life. That someone can be told "you are very special you are slightly autistic" when you were young and put into therapy and special classrooms and everything, ande then those same people who forces you into special treatment say: whoops we screwed up, sorry for depriving you of a normal life" is just wrong. 66.176.172.119 00:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I have just been diagnosed at the age of 48, I know I have always been different but never really knew the reason why. I decided to get diagnosed for the sake of my children, I have decided not to label them yet - but by understanding myself and the condition, I can help them and at last I can start to understand why I have such a fast complex brain, it’s like it’s been feed all the wrong information all its life and now I can set it, me and my family free to be ourselves. Why am I the one everyone remembers for all the wrong reasons – I like my world it’s fun, please try and accept me for who I am because it’s you who excepts me to comfort and fit into your world. AF Bradley NZ 10 May 2007
Earlier I put AS 'advanced species' have changed to Alien Species as do not want to be disrespectful to anyone else. We are all different, that's what makes our world so interesting. I first put advanced to make myself feel better, as over the years for no reason at times, have been put down and felt like an alien to this planet - so Alien is a more appropriate word to use. I have more than just Aspergers Syndrome, but that is apart of what I'am and getting diagnosed was the best thing I have ever done and is really helping me to understand myself, help my children and hopefully others.
Should the article include anything about the "AssBurgers" thing? Mike (Talk)/ (Cont) 00:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
With regard to this:
needing a citation. Should I just upload a scan of one of my payslips? Damburger 00:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please tell me who supplied the following. The quote isnt referenced and I would like s source. MY email is joelbeasant@hotmail.com
In 1982 Becker and Gersten found that ABA techniques were indeed educationally beneficial because they provide "motivational programs based on positive reinforcement such as a token system and a systematic task analysis for developing academic skills". ABA also promotes the foundation for academic and living skills. Once certain skills have been acquired, it is possible through ABA to generalize these skills and add new skills to the "existing repertoire through various techniques of shaping, extinction, backward chaining, and prompting". (Schreibman, 1975, Sulzer & Mayer, 1972, Wolery et al, 1988)
I made some additions based on my own personal experience with AS. I hope it is OK. Sykee 14:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
If making major changes, it's better to propose thos changes here on the discussion page first. That way all of us have better communication in developing this article as a team, and everyone can have some good input. Thanks! :) -- Dulcimerist 19:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This material and these sources have been repeatedly rejected in this discussion as being non credible references. Material from academic/refereed sources is welcome. CeilingCrash 18:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Ceiling Crash. I drafted and placed that (non-offensive, and extremely brief) paragraph, and was not aware of earlier rejections of this subject. I might add that I am not associated with the usual protagonists you have it in for, and am working from my own position as one of the said family members. Also, I do not know the Wikipedia criteria for credible reference, and do not have time to delve into ways this matter can legitimately be presented, BUT find it hard to believe that Maxine Aston's pages (for example) do not qualify as credible reference for a non-clinical issue http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/workshop/HoC_next.shtml. I will say for the record that your not offering an alternative suggestion on how these widely recognized family issues can be included in the entry, and simply deleting it, is suspect. In my mind it amounts to unreasonable censure of negatives as you don't offer a reasonable alternative path. I hope you can at least consider drafting something 'you' feel sits well with your vision of how the syndrome might affect family members. Sincerely. soulgany
I agree with soulgany, JC
Sorry for the bold text, I hadn't noticed there was an objection for a few weeks, so i wished to make it catch the eye of any interested parties. I shall debold it in a few daze.
CeilingCrash
07:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
- the wiki principle "extraordinary claims require extraordinary references." applies
CeilingCrash and Poindexter: I'm a little reluctant to address this topic now after becoming aware of my lack of understanding of Wikipedia standards for comment, but am optimistic that you now see potential and validity for a brief statement. So I reiterate my original proposal that one or both of you draft a short account on how the syndrome "might" affect family members. Your concerns about the topic becoming unwieldy and unreferenced are certainly valid (I totally agree, and for the same reasons!). As you have both shown skill in discriminating what are/not acceptable references I will make the following suggestion: Draw up a few representative sentences you feel happy with, and back them with only the best quality 'credible references' you can find (yes, there are very few, and these are of low reliability. nevertheless...) and draw the quality of these references as this section's baseline standard. Creating that cut-off standard will allow editors to remove all the ongoing dross which will inevitably be added from week to week. The more subjective additions can be regularly spring-cleaned. Tedious I know. What do you think? 124.187.14.93 23:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
In fact there may not be any need to mention these people (Atwood, Aston, etc) at all. Just the key traits identified as responsible for interpersonal empathy deficits might do it- mind-blindless and alexithymia. Over to you 124.187.14.93 08:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh - and this book, http://www.jkp.com/catalogue/book.php/isbn/9781843107347 is excellent and agreeable to people across the spectrum. the author is a wife and mother of aspies (no pun intended!) unlike Aston and others, she is still happily married, and gives lots of good tips for crossing the NT/Aspie gap. 208.49.146.130 15:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)CeilingCrash
The trick is to not preference the happily-married's over the unhappily married's. So your proposal to represent the bad (through a detailing of specific traits) and good is appropriate. So far I think a representation of the positives has succeeded in earlier parts of the page, so this section could include a dual presentation. You are both doing a good job so I'll leave it to you guys, as you know what feels comfortable and what is accurate, and you are better at navigating this job than me. But if I do get seized with a moment of creativity I'll put it up here for appraisal. 124.187.14.93 23:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
In every marriage both people must grow. NT/Aspie marriages are no exception.
PS. I have noted the overriding emphasis in Maxine Aston's work on male-Asies with female NT's. I agree it would be more neutral to de-genderise discussions, and also yes, NT's can be a a problem too (in which case I'd question the 'NT' appelative). In fact I much prefer "non-Aspergers" to NT, as NT simply cannot apply to the varied race of humans, who each have their troubling idiosyncratic pathologies and none of whom is really "typical".
Ok, tear it apart! 124.187.14.93 02:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash 141.149.168.130 03:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Making a seperate article is not such a bad idea, and as you suggest it can be fleshed out with useful suggestions and techniques for families/couples to improve relationships. My only concern is that such a seperate article might be assailed by vandals, but I guess thats no different to what happens on the present page. Of course I wouldn't have the foggiest on how to create a page, but if there's enough interest by others who can, then I'd be willing to contribute to ideas or wording where I can. soulgany 124.187.14.93 03:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Done as much I can for now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_Syndrome_and_Interpersonal_Relationships
Anyone care to have a tinker?? soulgany 124.187.14.93 13:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the above page is completely superfluous, as all the same positivistic slants are presented here. I recommend someone delete it.
Cheers Soulgany101 12:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Good. I put up some legitimate, referenced material about alexithymia and ToM, but Zereaph corrupted or deleted it again without offering discussion. I'm afraid I have not got the time to combat that kind of behaviour. It was worth a try. Soulgany101 21:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I was inspired by the original working spirit of CC, PP and myself toward the new article despite our obvious different positions on the subject. Unfortunately I am cynical about Zereaph's ability to let something balanced stand.
I have one alternative question: is it possible for someone to salvage anything original and referenced from the earier Interpersonal Relationships draft, and to insert it in an appropriate spot on this page? I think there is probably only a paragraph or two so-far on alexithymia/Mind-blindness and empathy, worth salvaging. In my thinking this would provide for a balanced presentation.
Soulgany101
22:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
PP. Your willingness to discuss and make positive contributions is much appreciated as i am an appalling novice in Wikipedia editing skill. Nevertheless, I'm finding the process a little overwhelming at present because of the 'one step forward, twenty steps back' experience. If I feel inspired in the days or weeks ahead I will seek your help with citations. Thanks again. Soulgany101 23:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
In fact, I think I will bow out of that article altogether. Not because I don't think there is a very legitimate subject there to be treated, but more because the forces against are discouraging for a novice. There is a skeleton there for others to work with if they wish (others who are up to speed on the do's and dont's, and will not waste thier time or effort by making mistakes). If there is no interest in alternative view then it really stands as a superfluous page. :-) Soulgany101 00:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This contribution should be deleted. If this contribution is kept, it should have a note appended stating that the author has NO credentials in mental health, and that it is only one man's opinion and has no scientific data to back it up. He admits this on his blog page at blogspot.com. James howard 37 02:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
By deleting this section this article now closes the door to hope for people with AS tendencies. This article is a key 'search the net' place for people being hurt by AS tendencies, and it now presents the 'accepted wisdom' that AS is untreatable and un-escapable from. It is just like a medieval cleric saying "of course the sun orbits the earth", slamming the door on any new thinking. Why not at least mention examples of people who have possibly escaped from AS, even if unproven? - because this could help other searching people to improve their lives and those of their loved ones. JC unlearningasperger.blogspot.com.
I am curious as to why this is up for cleanup. If it was a featured article and is "one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community", then why would it require cleanup? I, personally, see nowhere in the article that cleanup is necessary. If it is, please let me know where and I will glad to cleanup where needed, but I think the article is great as is. Take Care.... NeutralHomer T: C 03:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I just noticed you said you'd work on it, so I'll give you a list:
The article has barely squeaked through FAR twice, and it looks like the people who used to watch over the article are no longer watching it, and it's been trashed pretty well. I hope it can be cleaned up without a third FAR, but a large effort is needed, because I suspect most text will have to be checked against refs. You can see the version that passed FAR by clicking on the oldid in ArticleHistory; that will give you an idea of what has been changed or added. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Why did somebody put back in the "social impact" section? Whoever made the section seems to be pretty biased to people with A.S. like I am. Like I said, I have been told that I am gifted, and I can get a job and get married if I wanted to. As a whole, the section isn't biased, but for the most part it is. Sean90 20:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a few poorly worded sentences I'm going to take a stab at, I won't make any major changes w/o introducing them here first. In fairness to the tireless Wiki tribe; when text gets edited and re-edited sentence structure tends to break down organically.
I can't help thinking the constant idealogical tension regarding Asperger's is a result of colliding terminology. In this discussion and in other places, the word 'Aspergers' can be used to mean : a) a superior configuration of the brain, displaying enhanced memory, unconventional creativity, ability in artistic and verbal expression, in the mathematical sciences and displaying unusual fairness and honesty in their relations to each others. (Attwood, Baron Cohen, and Asperger make these observations ) People in this category use the Asperger term not because they satisfy the DSM criteria, but rather a neuropsychiatric exam reveals the traits that are the *operational* criteria for Asperger's : sensory perception and integration differences (a ticking clock may bother them), extremely precocious verbal ability as early as 5 years old. There is a part of the test for Asperger's called the Embedded Image test, on which the Aspie patient is seen to *outperform* NT's. These people have every right to the term because their doctors use it.
Or it can be B), another group that more closely matches the DSM, and experience - by their doctor's account and their own, difficulties in being productive, in having meaningful relationships, in understanding the emotional state of others, and so on. This group *also* has legitimate claim to the term.
These two groups are not disjoint; each person may identify with parts of each.
Or it can mean C), Amateur-Diagnosis-By-Proxy. Here I am referring to the use of the term Asperger's by fraudulent 'support' groups such as ASPAR, FAAAS and Maxine Aston, where the 'Asperger' person is not present, rather someone close to them *thinks* they have Asperger's, but there is not a proper diagnosis of any kind. This group will complain of *undiagnosed* Asperger's, which - if you think about it - is a contradiction in terms unless the patient later is diagnosed.
It would be *so* much easier to if group A) had one term, group B) had another, and group C stopped using the term altogether.
Ah, wishes and horses ... CeilingCrash 12:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Questions of bias aside, the Social Impact section has non credible sources and is non encyclopedic. I *think* this decision had already been reached here, the section deleted, and somebody put it back in. The sources are no good, and the content declares what an Aspie *needs to do*, which is of dubious veracity and not germaine to what Asperger's IS.
The National Autistic Society is not a peer-reviewed source of academic quality; neither is anything from Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Given all the academic-quality research being done on Asperger's, there is no reason for us to use any sources less credible.
Not to get into dispute over content, but Attwood's "theory of mind" has been universally rejected by later clinicians, and probably wouldn't have published in a peer-reviewed source.
CeilingCrash 15:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Proposed change, "Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the Autistic spectrum. It manifests in various ways and can have both positive and negative effects. It is typically characterized by issues with social and communication skills. Due to the mixed nature of its effects, it remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people who are diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome."
to
"Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the Autistic spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Issues with social communication (verbal and non-verbal) are nearly universal to those with Asperger's. Other characteristics vary greatly from person to person, these include : sensory integration/sensitivity issues, repetitive behavior, and 'stimming' behavior such as rocking [reference]. Positive characteristics have also been observed and vary greatly: enhanced memory, an advanced grasp of languaged as early as age 5 [reference], and mathematical talent [reference] which, in once case at least, is of historic impact [reference to Giorgi Perelman]. Due to the mixed nature of its effects, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people with the diagnosis.
208.49.146.130 17:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The deleted sections mentioned above - family relationships and reversal of symptoms - imply some people would like to read about new and unproven ideas and techniques that may help improve AS tendency lives, even if these are outside the scientific orthodoxy. Maybe Wiki should have an "unproven related ideas page - user beware!" function, on this and perhaps many other topics. AS, June 07
I didn't notice any mention of stemming in this article, even though this is a distinguishing characteristic. Angry Aspie 01:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I got reverted last time; this time i have waited for other folks to chime in, nobody has.
I am removing this section because, and only because : Almost all the sources referenced are non credible or non verifiable. Let me tick them off :
in 21, we have no page number.
In 22, 23, 24, 26, 31, 32, and 33, it comes from Jessica Kingsley publishers. I realize Attwood is a luminary, but when he writes in a non peer reviewed source it becomes non credible.
Jessica Kingsley publishers is not a traditional publishing house with an editing staff and fact-checking capability. I believe they are "subsidized" by the author, essentially self-published. In any case, no peer-review, no fact checking.
25 has no page number.
These don't even come close to academic quality. There is a pervasive and irreperable lapse in quality in this section. Absent any objection, I'm going to zap it.
CeilingCrash 03:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
These are precisely reasons to wipe out the entire section. those footnotes make up the whole section with only 2 credible sources left. Without page numbers, a source cannot be verified. The rule of thumb is, a reader should be able to take our article, and go check the references himself.
Truth does not enter into it. We judge verifiability to credible sources. The best source we can use is one from an academic, peer-reviwed journal. Wikipedia specifically warns against self-published books and websites such as Kingsley publishers.
Do I really need to go on? Further, I cannot rewrite this with better sources because the material has no better sources. In any case the burden of proof is on the original editor who put it there - wikipedia clearly states poorly sourced material should be removed.
This article is up for FAR and I am trying to make improvements. I wonder if I am wasting my time. CeilingCrash 04:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC) CeilingCrash 04:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I appeal to policy, not your convinceability.
There ARE NO BETTER sources because that material is non-credible in the first place. Wiki policy clearly states to remove poorly sourced material, it clearly does NOT state "something is better than nothing." For example, "theory of mind" has been subsequently rejected by virtually every researcher.
I have been the only one working on this article for the FAR, and now I'm going to stop. There are more pleasant ways of wasting my time.
"Screw you guys, I'm goin home!" -- Eric Cartman CeilingCrash 04:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have taken my medication and calmed down, sorry bout that ... Actually, I'm glad to have anybody here to talk to. I'm much less interested in the Social Impact section than the lede paragraph, I proposed a change ( a couple sections above ^ ) ; i don't like making it wordier, but i felt that lede should give the reader some feel for what Asperger's is, from the various schools of thought. Feedback would be welcome, and i promise not to quote eric cartman anymore ... CeilingCrash 05:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I like the first two sentences quite well. The third (difference from other autism is delay in early language development) I'm not as enthused about, because (a) the differences between an aspie and an LFA can be quite extreme, so this might give a wrong impression, and (b) the whole speech development thing is of questionable utility. Gillberg's diagnostic criteria said that you had to have delayed speech to be an aspie, and, pragmatically speaking, the diagnosis of one or the other seems to depend more on what doctor you saw and what sort of impression you made than on the various diagnostic guides. I also find persuasive Ozonoff's argument that it's a meaningless distinction because aspies and HFAs (above age 8 or so) should be treated identically.
Sentence 4: looks good. Sentence 5 (sensitivity issues, stimming) I'm fine with, but would lean towards "these may include" rather than "these include," since like you say, it's highly variable, and many aspies, as they get older, learn to manage their stimming to the point where it's no longer recognizable as such. Positive traits: memory, agreed. Language skills: agreed, I'd say even earlier than age 5 in some cases, but we need to be careful that we're not lumping it together with hyperlexia, which is technically a comorbidity (although how a superpower ever got termed a morbidity at all is beyond me). Math: yes, and I would consider adding sciences and engineering. Last sentence: dandy. So here would be my first attempt at an edit:
Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the Autistic spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. As with all forms of autism, there are general issues with social communication (verbal and non-verbal), but these tend to be less severe than in "low functioning autism."[references] Other characteristics vary greatly from person to person, but often include: sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ("stimming") behavior such as rocking, and intense but narrow areas of interest.[references] Positive characteristics have also been observed and vary greatly, these often include: enhanced memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences or language.[references like mad here, I think... curebies, as you say] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people with the diagnosis.
OK, your turn again -- see some things you don't like in my first draft? Poindexter Propellerhead 20:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Looking over the DSM criteria for autism and AS, there are 3 key differences. A major criterium for an autism diagnosis is impaired communication, which is totally absent from the AS criteria. Aspies are also required to have at least normal intellectual ability in non-social areas. And then there's the delayed speech issue. So here's another try...
Draft 2 -- still rough, but getting closer, I think:
Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the
autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. As with all forms of autism, there are stereotyped behaviors and impairments to social interaction, but an AS diagnosis requires normal intellectual development in non-social areas. A diagnosis of (non-AS) autism also requires deficits in communication skills which are not a part of the AS diagnostic criteria.[references] Most definitions have specified that delayed speech precludes a diagnosis of AS,[references] but agreement on this point has been less than universal; some diagnostic guides have even said the opposite.[references] Characteristics vary greatly from person to person, but often include: sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ("
stimming") behavior such as rocking, and intense but narrow areas of interest.[references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced memory, mental focus, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences or language.[references] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people with the diagnosis.
Draft 3 -- just trying to crunch sentence structure, put sentence object first, and other twiddling. no content changes :
Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes stereotyped behaviors and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' Autism in that speech and (non-social) intellect develop normally (or better). Some clinicians object to these differential criteria and seek other means of distinguishing Asperger's, still others claim the Asperger's category should be eliminated in favor of High Functioning Autism. [1]
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating (" stimming") behavior such as rocking, and intense but narrow areas of interest.[references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced memory, mental focus, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[21] or language[22].[references] Due to the mixed nature of its effects as well as continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
Quite by accident, i ended up swallowing paragraph two; the issue with Aspergers vs HFA flowed naturally when we introduced the differential criteria of speech- and cognitive- development.
This is starting to really feel right. Which is no small deal, since this will be the #1 google hit when a person types in "asperger's" !!
141.149.168.130
04:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Sounds OK to me. Let's let it sit here for a day or two to give any other interested parties a chance to add input (and for us to get our remaining references chosen), then proceed. If you feel like repeating this process with some other sections (yes, including Social Differences, which could probably be condensed into a few gracefully flowing paragraphs), I'd be up for that. Those who went before have done all of the hard work already; but, as well as making work light, many hands also make for an unseemly patchwork of ideas and styles. With some polishing, I think this article can have the best of both worlds, and the added bonus (if anyone cares) of renewed FA status. Poindexter Propellerhead 02:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Should we mention, among the deficits, difficulty interpreting non-verbal social cues? CeilingCrash 02:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Changes in bold. Don't know if 'focussed' rather than 'narrow' is too neuro-optimistic :-b Added a couple of social deficits ...
Version 0.5:
Asperger syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate.
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: intensely focussed areas of interest, sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ("stimming") behavior such as rocking, difficulty interpreting facial expressions and non-verbal social cues.[references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced mental focus, memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[21] or language[22].[other references] Due to the mixed nature of its effects as well as continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
There is significant confusion surrounding the difference between AS and the loosely-defined category of high functioning autism("HFA"). While mildly autistic individuals may be diagnosed as HFA because they fail to meet one or more of the diagnostic criteria for AS, it is common for diagnosis to be influenced by non-technical issues, such as availability of government benefits for one condition but not the other.[ref: Attwood, Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, pp. 150-151] Until a formal definition for HFA is agreed upon, and until practice conforms with theory, the distinction between the two is likely to remain murky. CeilingCrash 17:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, this is more like 0.6 than 0.5.1. Here goes:
Asperger syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate.
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: intensely focused areas of interest, sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ('stimming') behavior such as rocking, difficulty interpreting facial expressions and other social cues. [references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced mental focus, memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[21] or language[22].[other references]
There is significant confusion surrounding the difference between AS and the broader category of high functioning autism (HFA). While neither AS or HFA have single, universally agreed upon definitions, most diagnostic guides draw a division based on whether or not the subject develops speech skills by the usual age, with delayed speech indicating a diagnosis of HFA rather than AS. [references] A minority take the opposite position; that delayed onset of speech is be required for a diagnosis of AS. [17] Diagnostic tests and other tools are naturally as varied as the criteria. [4]
Other clinicians dispute the view that AS is differentiated from other autistic spectrum disorders. Instead they refer to Asperger's as HFA, or treat the diagnoses interchangably. These researchers argue that language delay is a difference in degree and not kind. [1] Even among those who feel that the differences between AS and HFA are significant, it is common for diagnosis to be influenced by non-technical issues, such as availability of government benefits for one condition but not the other. [ref: Attwood, Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, pp. 150-151] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, and continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
(That leaves us with a leftover section on diagnosis, which might be better moved into a later part of the article.)
AS is often not identified in early childhood, and many individuals are not diagnosed until they are adults. Assistance for core symptoms of AS consists of therapies that apply behaviour management strategies and address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness. Many individuals with AS can adopt strategies for coping and do lead fulfilling lives - being gainfully employed, having successful relationships, and having families. In most cases, they are aware of their differences and can recognize if they need any support to maintain an independent life.[4]
I like it. We're going to inadvertently rewrite the whole thing as we keep eating subsequent paragraphs! And why not ?
I just tightened some sentences, and deleted the last sentence of paragraph 3 as it seemed to break the flow and seemed obvious (i may be wrong on this. Otherwise i just tightened a few sentences :
0.6.1.1
Asperger syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive[21] and negative[11] effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate.
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: intensely focused areas of interest, sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ('stimming') behavior such as rocking, difficulty interpreting facial expressions and other social cues. [references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced mental focus, memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[21] or language[22].[other references]
There is significant controversy over the difference between AS and the broader category of high functioning autism (HFA). While neither AS nor HFA have universally accepted definitions, most diagnostic manuals distinguish the two according to speech development. Delayed speech indicates HFA; normal onset of speech indicates Asperger's. [references] However, at least one diagnostic guide takes the opposite position; that delayed onset of speech is required for a diagnosis of AS. [17]
Some clinicians deny that AS is differentiated from other autistic spectrum disorders at all. Instead they refer to Asperger's as HFA, or treat the diagnoses interchangably, arguing that language delay is a difference in degree and not kind. [1] Even among those who feel that the differences between AS and HFA are significant, it is common for diagnoses to be influenced by non-technical issues, such as availability of government benefits for one condition but not the other. [ref: Attwood, Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, pp. 150-151][Here's an even better one, in online PDF form: www.sacramentoasis.com/docs/8-22-03/as_&_hfa.pdf] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, and continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
(That leaves us with a leftover section on diagnosis, which might be better moved into a later part of the article.)
AS is often not identified in early childhood, and many individuals are not diagnosed until they are adults. Assistance for core symptoms of AS consists of therapies that apply behaviour management strategies and address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness. Many individuals with AS can adopt strategies for coping and do lead fulfilling lives - being gainfully employed, having successful relationships, and having families. In most cases, they are aware of their differences and can recognize if they need any support to maintain an independent life.[4]
I think we've got really good balance in each of these paragraphs, and they are in perfect cascading order of importance. CeilingCrash 02:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Adding references in-place to above final draft ... 208.49.146.130 17:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
[1] Tony Attwood, _The Complete Guide to Asperger's_, ??? page number, Jessica Kingsley Publishers, London, UK. 2007
[21] Simon Baron-Cohen, Sally Wheelwright, Richard Skinner, Joanne Martin and Emma Clubley The Autism-Spectrum Quotient (AQ): Evidence from Asperger Syndrome/High-Functioning Autism, Males and Females, Scientists and Mathematicians, _Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, Vol 31-1, February 2001
more to come, i'm going to shore up [21] with another reference to Asperger, as this is likely to be contentious.
CeilingCrash
19:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash 01:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I've forgotten too much of my German to translate at more than a snail's pace. But if you know of a place where the original text is online, I could translate any particular passages that there seemed a pressing need for. Poindexter Propellerhead 02:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, i didn't get to citations this am, but i till tomorrow and perhaps we can post the opening section CeilingCrash 76.19.39.205 03:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
im just asking cuz i am doing a report on it. Can teens get boyfriends or girlfriends? will they eventually get married
Ive been In a few relationships now and my parents think I have aspthingy, but I dont have any symtons but then again my parents dont even know me. TaylorLTD 00:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, seeing as how AS is commonly believed to be passed genetically through parents, it is obvious that it is possible. Also, as a person with AS, I have had enough success.
Just adding citations ...
0.6.1.1
Asperger syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive[n1][n2][n3][1][2] and negative effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate[6]
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: intensely focused areas of interest, sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ('stimming') behavior such as rocking, difficulty interpreting facial expressions and other social cues. [6] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced mental focus, memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[n1][n2][n3] or language[n4].
There is significant controversy over the difference between AS and the broader category of high functioning autism (HFA). While neither AS nor HFA have universally accepted definitions [n5] , most diagnostic manuals distinguish the two according to speech development. Delayed speech indicates HFA; normal onset of speech indicates Asperger's.[6] However, at least one diagnostic guide takes the opposite position; that delayed onset of speech favors a diagnosis of AS. [n8]
Some clinicians deny that AS is differentiated from other autistic spectrum disorders at all[n7]. Instead they refer to Asperger's as HFA, or treat the diagnoses interchangably, arguing that language delay is a difference in degree and not kind. [n7][1]. Even among those who feel that the differences between AS and HFA are significant, it is common for diagnoses to be influenced by non-technical issues, such as availability of government benefits for one condition but not the other. [n6] [Here's an even better one, in online PDF form: www.sacramentoasis.com/docs/8-22-03/as_&_hfa.pdf] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, and continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
(That leaves us with a leftover section on diagnosis, which might be better moved into a later part of the article.)
AS is often not identified in early childhood, and many individuals are not diagnosed until they are adults. Assistance for core symptoms of AS consists of therapies that apply behaviour management strategies and address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness. Many individuals with AS can adopt strategies for coping and do lead fulfilling lives - being gainfully employed, having successful relationships, and having families. In most cases, they are aware of their differences and can recognize if they need any support to maintain an independent life.[4]
new:
[n1] Tony Attwood, _The Complete Guide to Asperger's_, ??? page number, Jessica Kingsley Publishers, London, UK. 2007
[n2] Simon Baron-Cohen, Sally Wheelwright, Richard Skinner, Joanne Martin and Emma Clubley Autism-Spectrum Quotient (AQ): Evidence from Asperger Syndrome/High-Functioning Autism, Males and Females, Scientists and Mathematicians, _Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders_, Vol 31-1, February 2001
[n3] Asperger H. Die ‘autischen Psychopathen’ Kindesalter. Arch Psychiatrie Nervenkrankheiten 1944;17: 76-136. Pertinent quotations translated to english : http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=539373
[n4] Fred Volkmar, M.D., director of the Yale Child Study Center. Psychiatric News October 6, 2006 Volume 41, Number 19, page 21 "These are kids who talk before they can walk." http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/41/19/21
[n5] Patricia Howlin, PhD, Fred Volkmar, M.D, Sadie Dingfelder, A Dilemma of Definition, American Psychology Association Volume 35, No. 11 December 2004, page 48 http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec04/definition.html
[n6] Attwood, Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, pp. 150-151
[n7] Mayes SD, Calhoun SL, Crites DL. "Does DSM-IV Asperger's disorder exist?" J Abnorm Child Psychol. 2001 Jun;29(3):263-71 PMID: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=11411788
[n8] (Gillberg's criteria may be found at Christopher_Gillberg or at http://web.syr.edu/~rjkopp/data/as_diag_list.html if that suits you better.)
pre-existing :
[1] Brasic, JR. Pervasive Developmental Disorder: Asperger Syndrome. eMedicine.com (April 10, 2006). Retrieved 7 July 2006.
[2] Treffert, DA. Asperger's Disorder and Savant Syndrome. Wisconsin Medical Society. Retrieved on 19 July 2006.
[6] BehaveNet® Clinical Capsule™. DSM-IV & DSM-IV-TR: Asperger's Disorder (AD). Retrieved 28 June 2006.
[12] Ozonoff S, Rogers SJ, Pennington BF. "Asperger's syndrome: evidence of an empirical distinction from high-functioning autism." Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry. 1991 Nov;32(7):1107–22. PMID
[26] Attwood, Tony (1997). Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals. Jessica Kingsley Pub., London. ISBN, pp. ?? "At present, the results suggest there seems to be no meaningful difference between [Asperger syndrome and high-functioning autism]. They are more the same than they are different."
more to come ... obviously i am citing the H*LL out of this in anticipation of spurious objections ... CeilingCrash 04:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
http://www.aspergerdefense.com/asp_1944.pdf
http://www.socialanxiety.com/area-aspergers.html appears to be a bit of an ad,no? User:Serprex 15:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
And a non sequitur to boot ... CeilingCrash 05:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
The link for the AQ questionnaire is an online dating site which requires one's e-mail before spitting out a result. 67.49.247.73 18:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Seriously tho' I have been known to have a few of these symptoms. Bassium!
I finally got that put in, sorry for the long delay. CeilingCrash, would you happen to have a page number for citation #1? I don't have that book. Poindexter Propellerhead 07:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Love it, PP !! Let me look up that citation ... OK, I put in the page number (and an exerpt) for reference 1. A winning opening section if ever i saw one! -- CeilingCrash 17:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
This morning the h2g2 template was done away with (for the second time), in the belief that we should not facilitate links to encyclopedias with which we have no established relationship, and which are viewed as competition. [2] It was not related to reliability especially, we continue to have templates for dozens of sources which are not considered reliable, from answers.com to dmoz.org to comixpedia to imdb. [3]
Noticing the newly redlinked template, an attentive editor deleted it. Not wanting to see content disappear over a broken template, I found the article [4] and put in a working link. Another editor then deleted it again, questioning the appropriateness of including an unreliable encyclopedia as even an external link.
I looked over the article, and felt like it had something to contribute; it's written in a non-encyclopedic style, easy to read and non-technical, which seemed like a good counterbalance to our mostly very academic cites. I didn't notice any particular inaccuracies in it, or any strong POV issues.
Anyway, I'd like some feel for what (if any) the community's consensus on this article is. I'm inclined towards keeping it. Other opinions?
Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.
IMO that describes the h2g2 article quite well. I'm now in favour of adding the link. As there seems to be consensus on this page for readding the link, I'll add it back. Graham 87 07:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The average human has atleast one phobia. I don't see why fear of flushing toilets is any less rational than fear of buttons or string. Why is this connected to Asperger Syndrome? 80.178.59.139 22:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, anxiety and depression are well documented to often accompany asperger's; i'm not sure what the original author was trying to say. Certainly an aspie will learn to fear certain situations an NT will not, especially those he is less competent in. On a personal note, NT's scare the bejeezus out of me :-b CeilingCrash 19:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
i'm wondering about this. what are the differences between PDD-NOS and asperger syndrome? the only visible difference i can see is motor function problems - and i know some, diagnosed with asperger syndrome, who dont have motor function problems. is their diagnosis incorrect? 80.178.59.139 08:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
for personal announcements or information. For example, tomorrow is CeilingCrash's birthday. He is going to be 41. Not only would such an announcement on the Talk pages be entirely-out-of-place, but provides us a vivid example of a shameless request for Happy Birthday notices. CeilingCrash 19:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Now, we're not here to determine truth, rather, verifiability. But it's verifiability to credible sources, credible literally meaning "believable", so we get tangled up in truth despite our fervent vow to the contrary.
Attwood has said some things that are ... disturbing ... in the sense of his being a present RS. On the one hand, the man is huge in Asperger's, he is literally over 7,000 feet tall. On the other hand, he is beginning to say stuff that isn't just false (let he without sin ...) but absurd prima face
In fairness to Attwood, excerpts from talks should not be given the same weight as work he has published and submitted to peer review. It is *very* easy to make an incomplete extemporaneous remark, response to a question, or be taken out of context.
We've also got to be careful with Attwood; the book that made him famous was a general survey of the topic, not new research (Attwood, Tony. Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, Jessica Kingseley Publishers). This book was not peer reviewed nor subject to other academic standards. I got curious about kingsley publishers and actually went thru most of the manuscript submission process. If you pay them, they will print anything you want. Editing costs extra. If you want peer review, you provide them names of ppl who vouche for it.
Now, Attwood's fame and the world-recognized quality of his first book well compensate for this oddity, I believe. But Attwood, unlike his classmate Baron-Cohen, has never done any scientific research (please somebody correct me if i'm wrong on this point.) He himself repeatedly warns his conclusions are based on clinical data (experience with patients wandering in). This introduces the now familiar Selection Bias problem that led freud to conclude the psyche could be cured by the application of greek mythology to the genitals.
With this background in mind, here are some things he has said. Above we have the star-trek convention remark. Here Attwood actively discourages partners of Aspies some seeking professional help, and guides them to 'grass root' internet forums :
"With Asperger's, life is a stage," Attwood said. "The curtain goes up while they are in public and down when they are at home. Because other people do not see the problem, they question your sanity - you are on your own. In some families, denial has held the family together for generations, and you want to bring down the scaffolding." ...
"You cannot get this knowledge from professionals. contact with other partners through newsletters, a support group, or an Internet site is vital"
[This is a disgraceful abdication of his own profession. The reason you can't get this information from professionals is that it is unsubstantiated and indefensible. Attwood could write this into his next book, thus making it available from professionals - but he knows that he can't. The implication that only partners of aspies are fit to counsel other partners is troubling as well. A neuropsych disorder is no place for anti-intellectual folk psychology]
[There is another quotation where he says Aspie husband fall into 3 categories, all of which are bad. i'll insert it later.]
Attwood nowhere suggests the NT may be the source of trouble in a relationship. (There are lots more ways to be screwed up than the A. Spectrum!)
What is driving Attwood? Where is the voice of reason, "if you're having trouble in a relationship with an Aspie, get yourself some professional and qualified advice and by the way - don't forget you may be the problem ..."
I can only guess. It is worth noting that, autism began in the domain of psychology but is moving to the realm of neurology, psychopharmacology and genetics. There isn't all that much for a psychologist to do for us. They did enuf damage with the Ice Box mom theory already.
But partners of Aspies - cha-ching! Traumatized by life events ... let's have a ... workshop !!!
Attwood and Aston do business together, along with an organization called FAAAS. They put on workshops here in the US, Attwood speaks, he gets paid, promotes his books as well. Along with Karen Rodman, founder of FAAAS, they form a transnational unholy trinity spanning the US, UK, and Australia.
Aston always - always - references attwood in her essays to get reflected credibility. She likes to put her name and his in the same sentence. Aston publishes through - you guessed it - Jessica Kingseley Publishers, so there are no pesky issues with peer review or even editing.
And worst of all, Attwood's latest book, The Complete Guide to Asperger’s Syndrome , has a very stange last chapter. All about relationships, filled with references to Aston (who has done no scientific research.) But check the bibliography - the last chapter doesn't exist. It appears the last chapter was added late in the publication process, after all his other sources were vetted. For Attwood to expend his credibility on the likes of Aston seems tragic to me.
I should close by saying that I believe Tony is a man of great intellect and great heart who appears to respect and even admire some aspie differences. But I believe there are serious questions as to Attwood's credibility. Remember his publications slipped by peer review, i think he has used up his free 'pass' at this point and we have to look at him more critically. My issue with Attwood is not political. Baron Cohen has said some pretty vile things, but he backs them up with research so i hold my tongue.
I may cross-post this to the main Asp talk page ... </rant> CeilingCrash
This is just SO irresponsible. Attwood is about to get a personal flea in his ear from me on this:
"With Asperger's, life is a stage," Attwood said. "The curtain goes up while they are in public and down when they are at home. Because other people do not see the problem, they question your sanity - you are on your own. In some families, denial has held the family together for generations, and you want to bring down the scaffolding." ...
"You cannot get this knowledge from professionals. contact with other partners through newsletters, a support group, or an Internet site is vital"
Has he ever BEEN to an "internet support forum", does he have a single CLUE how toxic and abusive most of them are right up to Admin/Guru level?
Was he drunk? -- Zeraeph 14:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC) [crosspost by CC CeilingCrash 18:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
I've recently found out that my friend has a brother with Asperger Syndrome. Whats special about them is that they're identical twins. The cause of Asperger Syndrome cant be only hereditary if my friend doesn't have Asperger Syndrome. Whats up with that? 80.178.76.191 15:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
this obscure article is longer than osteoporosis or alzheimers disease.
If it bothers you, go write longer articles on osteoporosis and alzheimer's disease. Or were you wanting to split up the article on Asperger's into some subarticles? If the main aim of your statement is to get us to reduce the size of this article, I don't agree.
Hello,
As an individual with Asperger’s Syndrome, and as an individual who has read several comprehensive books on the subject (including book written by Tony Attwood, world expert on Asperger’s Syndrome), I was surprised to find some ‘facts’ here that had absolutely no references and that I had never, ever read in any book (even autobiographies of those with Asperger’s Syndrome). These comments included:
“Lack of appreciation of humor - although they may grasp jokes at an intellectual level, and rarely even excel at making jokes, they fail to appreciate its emotional worth. Sometimes, their smiles and laughter may appear unnatural.”
What? Tony Attwood even said in his book that some with Asperger’s develop a great sense of humor usually based on their realizing that they take many things literally (I know I definitely fit this category). In addition, many people with Asperger’s, including myself, love and appreciate hearing jokes just as much as any one else.
“Lack of embarrassment - although persons with AS have an intellectual understanding of shame and embarrassment, they are unable to grasp concepts on an emotional level.”
Also untrue, many, if not most, are able to emotionally grasp the concept of embarrassment (even intuitively from feeling the emotion at an early age), though they may not express the emotion in a conventional way.
“Financial imprudence - although some people with AS can manage their own finances, they usually appear to be careless or even reckless, with money. In most cases they require the assistance of others in managing their own finances and making financial decisions. “
I do not have the slightest idea as to were whoever posted this received the idea from. I have never read it in any book or on the web, and people I know with Asperger’s are by far some of the most financially responsible people I have ever met, due to their above average ability to keep emotions and reason separate and their ease with doing what they feel is morally correct.
Willis first hand experience. I deleted all four of those. But I'd like to discuss it. Sykee 07:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is really disgusting. I have an IQ of 140 (that puts me in the top .6% of the human race in intelligence) and I am flabergasted by the negative, condescending tone of this horrible article. "Aspergers" have a capacity for humor (I definitely do) and you can't put them all into one category. Not all Aspergers are literal, scientific thinkers. I am very imaginitive and creative. I write fiction, and have excelled at writing for a newspaper at only age 18. I'm not going to say I'm superior to neurotypicals, but I am equal. Give Aspergers the respect they deserve and change this hideous, disgusting article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JJAC116 ( talk • contribs)
Has there ever been succesful people with AS? C.bonnick 21:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you it really helped, so people with AS can be successful. You have put a smile on my face. C.bonnick 10:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash 00:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a parent in my classroom who is a respected board member and works for the EPA. His daughter is lovely, he's happily married, and he has AS. I also know people with AS who have graduated college and others who are very successful in the field of IT.
Just out of curiosity, wasn't Einstein thought to have AS? What about Bill Gates? I remember reading about him showing signs; unfortunately I can't source this, but it's a suggestion. -=PhotoN=- 15:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Jeopardy champion Ken Jennings has a mild form of AS, and was very successful with that! (Of course, memorizing trivia tends to be a strong suit among many people with AS!) Another success would be Kurt Cobain of the band Nirvana; who has been speculated to have had a form of AS, which was unfortunately misdiagnosed while he was alive. Inventor and electricity/radio pioneer Nicola Tesla definitely had AS, and we benefit from his discoveries and inventions each day! -- Dulcimerist 22:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Archimedes, brilliant mathematician and scientist of antiquity, may have had AS. His later counterpart Sir Isacc Newton may have as well. These might be too speculative to post, however. -- Dulcimerist 23:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
In the spirit of positivity, I propose a new section: Aspergers' traits in fiction.
The section would include Aspergers behaviors and characteristics as plot devices, as well as fictional characters that most people identify as exemplifying Aspergian personality traits -- as long as specific behaviors can be cited as typifying "Aspergers syndrome". This would allow incorporation of both pop and historical fiction that employs Aspergian behavior as a device to move a plot forwards (or is that backwards? <-- har (aspie humor) :> ). Note that Aspergers traits are often used in fiction as a positive form of comic relief.
For example:
Would this be acceptable? (btw, next time you're watching tv, watch for an Aspie character or characteristic and add it on)
--
Renice
13:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
[Hell, if you're going to give me the cake, you ought to let me eat the damned thing! :> ]
I think the big distinction is, while downs syndrome is (i suppose) more-or-less comprehensible to people (at least in outward appearance), it is very difficult to walk away from a discription of Asperger's with any sense of what aspergian thought is *like*.
It is essentially a lack of 'integration functions'. Information is not automatically weaved together and synthesized. For example, NT's have face-recognition algorithms that take a million pixels of data and do an instant face lookup. Aspie's in general don't have that capacity.
Those integrating algorithms make lots of probabilistic *assumptions*, which are usually true, but not always. For instance, a pair of twins could trip up an NT easily, whereas an Aspie is much more likely to notice a small scar on their left cheek has disappeared.
Aspies sort of come at everything with a completely clean slate. I think it is more precise to say they are "context-blind" rather than "mind-blind". This is usually a problem for the aspie, but sometimes creative leaps lie beyond the scope of accustomed context, so it has its advantages. This clean slate - lack of context - can be a) misunderstanding, or b) humorous, or c) revolutionary.
To illustrate, a) Once my girlfriend asked me, "do you like spanish olives with egg salad?"
I said, "Oh yes. Very nice." Later I took a bite of my sandwich, "Eeeeeeeeeeew!"
She said, what's wrong?
I said, "I didn't know you meant IN my egg salad !!" (OK this is a little bit of B) Virtually anyone else would have concluded with 99.99% certainty what she really meant. The aspie brain doesn't make that assumption and has no way of knowing that others would."
b) A classic joke has a historian and a mathematician on a plane. The historian looks out and sees a brown cow, and writes dutifully in his notebook, "There is a brown cow in Nebraska."
The mathematician sees the same thing and says, "there exists at least one cow currently in Nebraska, it is brown on top. Unless I'm dreaming. Or you are."
c) The notions of time and space were unchanged since euclid. They were considered to be undefinable for the most part, they could be described, but thought to be first terms inherent to existence itself. It is very Aspergian for Einstein to say,
"Time is what a clock measures." From first term to the behavior of a machine.
"Space is what a ruler measures." Again, to a simpler machine.
Then he asked the question, "If i have two identical clocks, keep one here, and mail another one to pittsburg and have it returned here, will they read the same?" His genius was not that he thought of a new thing - it was that he UNthought something. He UNthought the implicit context of time and space, threw it out, and asked "what *instruments* are we talking about? And what exactly do we think they do? Are we sure?"
An NT's context-engine is unconscious, so he doesn't know what it is he has assumed. The aspie doesn't have one.
--- This also, perhaps, accounts for the fact we tend to write ... er ... much longer descriptions of things. We can't guess what context is normally understood.
Anyway, I think this can be conveyed best by example, and the examples are often funny.
CeilingCrash 20:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I would support this as well. Well-known examples/metaphors for AS would be quite useful to help illustrate to people what AS is like. Each example would have to be explained, of course. An obvious one would be Rain Man, from the movie "Rain Man," who was character portrayed as having AS. Ted Danson's character from the television series "Becker" might also fit here. --
Dulcimerist
02:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I think rather than AS Raymond Babbitt was portrayed as someone with a deeply autistic life - a true autistic savant. if you look at Kim Peek's page on Wikipedia you will see he has many other problems to face. Kim's father has said he worries about who will look after Kim when he dies. People with AS are generally able to look after themselves. Soarhead77 21:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I support your idea, however I suggest you start the article with a disclaimer of some sort, saying something along the line's of "the traits of the characters below may not be entirely due to AS, and may be the accumulation of other factors and personality traits(etc)" in order that some characteristics may be inadvertently associated with AS TheJackle 00:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
viz http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2988647.stm - I am sorry to hear that Aspies don't have a sense of humour... -- Ndaisley 08:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
the all-too-familiar verifiable source problem :
The referred source, kathy marshak, has a degree from the Fielding Institute, a distance-learning school http://www.fielding.edu/, a PhD in Psychology.
Their PhD in Psychology degrees are not accredited by the American Psychological Association (APA), in contrast to their PhD in Clinical Psychology, which is accredited by the APA.
This seems a grey area I don't really know what to make of.
More to the point, her website makes no reference to anything she's published in an academic source, so the section seems a wash.
Thoughts?
As an aside, she is part of the aston-linehan-singer mutual endorsement ring dedicated to eradicating the scourge of scientific research in our lifetime. She is similarly possessed of the same disturbing fixation on MALES with asperger's.
from her FAQ on Asperger's : http://www.kmarshack.com/therapy/asperger/faq.html
" What kind of parents are people with Asperger Syndrome? We are just learning about this tragedy from adults coming forward to tell about being raised by AS parents"
CeilingCrash 10:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
What do y'all think about a new section concerning the long term development of children on the spectrum?
"One central finding of the study, said Dr. Coplan, is that children in the normal range of intelligence (an IQ of 70 or above) show significant improvement in their ASD symptoms over time. "We can offer the hopeful message to parents that many children with ASD will improve as part of the natural course of the condition," he said. This finding reinforced impressions by Dr. Coplan and many previous researchers about clinical outcomes for children with ASD."
http://stokes.chop.edu/publications/press/?ID=181
This is one of a crop of such studies, serious long-term data collection (in the US anyway) didn't start until about 10 years,and is now coming to fruition.
This information also serves to make people weary of the snake-oil cures which may be taking credit for this natural progression.
CeilingCrash 19:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone mentioned in this section that there have been scientific studies on the causes of autism. None of these seem to be in the article yet, so I did some Googling and came up with these potential sources:
http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/research/CeFAR/default.htm http://www.cmu.edu/PR/releases04/040727_autism.html http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1235486
Could these be useful? Lostvoice 09:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash
In this talk section (above somewhere), Judy Singer claims she coined the term "neurodiversity." The wiki article on Neurodiversity credits her for this in a paper published in 1999.
I discovered her claim is false, that it was coined in 1998 by Harvey Blume. I have corrected the article to give him proper credit. If anyone (especially Ms Singer) wishes to comment, please see Talk:Neurodiversity.
CeilingCrash 22:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to keep the language moderated and avoiding the "getting rid of" kind of conversation. I think talking about removing Asperger's is overly negative. I am not fixed on this. Alex Jackl 12:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
All of this could by BS launched by "Big Pharma". See Jeff Rense's website for more about "diseases". 205.240.144.220 06:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
What do you do when you're an adult and find out that every problem described with AS nails every major problem in your own life? Rhudi 04:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Realize that you've probably figured out how to survive anyway and laugh at people that need all the stuff we don't? I mean honestly, there's not much to do when we're diagnosed early, forget about later on in life. Unless you're incredibly stupid you'll have known for awhile you;re odd and been coping with it. The fact that now we can be diagnosed just means it's easier for NTs to sort out the world.
Get yourself tested. If the test is positive, as Alex mentions, that information can lead to valuable coping skills and explanations. In some cases, medication is also helpful. Getting tested, especially for an adult, takes a bit of doing - I would recommend an expert in autistic disorders, no general practitioner or psychiatrist should moonlight in Asperger's by checking off DSM symptoms - and they may not know that.
Most of all, the test can lead to self-acceptance and self-understanding. And what's better than that?
"Autism rocks." CeilingCrash 23:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I hate to jump ship but early on i was diagnosed with aspergers 3 times. Amazingly i outgrew it. I am no longer diagnosed with anything and i live a completely uneventful life. That someone can be told "you are very special you are slightly autistic" when you were young and put into therapy and special classrooms and everything, ande then those same people who forces you into special treatment say: whoops we screwed up, sorry for depriving you of a normal life" is just wrong. 66.176.172.119 00:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I have just been diagnosed at the age of 48, I know I have always been different but never really knew the reason why. I decided to get diagnosed for the sake of my children, I have decided not to label them yet - but by understanding myself and the condition, I can help them and at last I can start to understand why I have such a fast complex brain, it’s like it’s been feed all the wrong information all its life and now I can set it, me and my family free to be ourselves. Why am I the one everyone remembers for all the wrong reasons – I like my world it’s fun, please try and accept me for who I am because it’s you who excepts me to comfort and fit into your world. AF Bradley NZ 10 May 2007
Earlier I put AS 'advanced species' have changed to Alien Species as do not want to be disrespectful to anyone else. We are all different, that's what makes our world so interesting. I first put advanced to make myself feel better, as over the years for no reason at times, have been put down and felt like an alien to this planet - so Alien is a more appropriate word to use. I have more than just Aspergers Syndrome, but that is apart of what I'am and getting diagnosed was the best thing I have ever done and is really helping me to understand myself, help my children and hopefully others.
Should the article include anything about the "AssBurgers" thing? Mike (Talk)/ (Cont) 00:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
With regard to this:
needing a citation. Should I just upload a scan of one of my payslips? Damburger 00:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please tell me who supplied the following. The quote isnt referenced and I would like s source. MY email is joelbeasant@hotmail.com
In 1982 Becker and Gersten found that ABA techniques were indeed educationally beneficial because they provide "motivational programs based on positive reinforcement such as a token system and a systematic task analysis for developing academic skills". ABA also promotes the foundation for academic and living skills. Once certain skills have been acquired, it is possible through ABA to generalize these skills and add new skills to the "existing repertoire through various techniques of shaping, extinction, backward chaining, and prompting". (Schreibman, 1975, Sulzer & Mayer, 1972, Wolery et al, 1988)
I made some additions based on my own personal experience with AS. I hope it is OK. Sykee 14:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
If making major changes, it's better to propose thos changes here on the discussion page first. That way all of us have better communication in developing this article as a team, and everyone can have some good input. Thanks! :) -- Dulcimerist 19:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This material and these sources have been repeatedly rejected in this discussion as being non credible references. Material from academic/refereed sources is welcome. CeilingCrash 18:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Ceiling Crash. I drafted and placed that (non-offensive, and extremely brief) paragraph, and was not aware of earlier rejections of this subject. I might add that I am not associated with the usual protagonists you have it in for, and am working from my own position as one of the said family members. Also, I do not know the Wikipedia criteria for credible reference, and do not have time to delve into ways this matter can legitimately be presented, BUT find it hard to believe that Maxine Aston's pages (for example) do not qualify as credible reference for a non-clinical issue http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/workshop/HoC_next.shtml. I will say for the record that your not offering an alternative suggestion on how these widely recognized family issues can be included in the entry, and simply deleting it, is suspect. In my mind it amounts to unreasonable censure of negatives as you don't offer a reasonable alternative path. I hope you can at least consider drafting something 'you' feel sits well with your vision of how the syndrome might affect family members. Sincerely. soulgany
I agree with soulgany, JC
Sorry for the bold text, I hadn't noticed there was an objection for a few weeks, so i wished to make it catch the eye of any interested parties. I shall debold it in a few daze.
CeilingCrash
07:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
- the wiki principle "extraordinary claims require extraordinary references." applies
CeilingCrash and Poindexter: I'm a little reluctant to address this topic now after becoming aware of my lack of understanding of Wikipedia standards for comment, but am optimistic that you now see potential and validity for a brief statement. So I reiterate my original proposal that one or both of you draft a short account on how the syndrome "might" affect family members. Your concerns about the topic becoming unwieldy and unreferenced are certainly valid (I totally agree, and for the same reasons!). As you have both shown skill in discriminating what are/not acceptable references I will make the following suggestion: Draw up a few representative sentences you feel happy with, and back them with only the best quality 'credible references' you can find (yes, there are very few, and these are of low reliability. nevertheless...) and draw the quality of these references as this section's baseline standard. Creating that cut-off standard will allow editors to remove all the ongoing dross which will inevitably be added from week to week. The more subjective additions can be regularly spring-cleaned. Tedious I know. What do you think? 124.187.14.93 23:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
In fact there may not be any need to mention these people (Atwood, Aston, etc) at all. Just the key traits identified as responsible for interpersonal empathy deficits might do it- mind-blindless and alexithymia. Over to you 124.187.14.93 08:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh - and this book, http://www.jkp.com/catalogue/book.php/isbn/9781843107347 is excellent and agreeable to people across the spectrum. the author is a wife and mother of aspies (no pun intended!) unlike Aston and others, she is still happily married, and gives lots of good tips for crossing the NT/Aspie gap. 208.49.146.130 15:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)CeilingCrash
The trick is to not preference the happily-married's over the unhappily married's. So your proposal to represent the bad (through a detailing of specific traits) and good is appropriate. So far I think a representation of the positives has succeeded in earlier parts of the page, so this section could include a dual presentation. You are both doing a good job so I'll leave it to you guys, as you know what feels comfortable and what is accurate, and you are better at navigating this job than me. But if I do get seized with a moment of creativity I'll put it up here for appraisal. 124.187.14.93 23:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
In every marriage both people must grow. NT/Aspie marriages are no exception.
PS. I have noted the overriding emphasis in Maxine Aston's work on male-Asies with female NT's. I agree it would be more neutral to de-genderise discussions, and also yes, NT's can be a a problem too (in which case I'd question the 'NT' appelative). In fact I much prefer "non-Aspergers" to NT, as NT simply cannot apply to the varied race of humans, who each have their troubling idiosyncratic pathologies and none of whom is really "typical".
Ok, tear it apart! 124.187.14.93 02:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash 141.149.168.130 03:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Making a seperate article is not such a bad idea, and as you suggest it can be fleshed out with useful suggestions and techniques for families/couples to improve relationships. My only concern is that such a seperate article might be assailed by vandals, but I guess thats no different to what happens on the present page. Of course I wouldn't have the foggiest on how to create a page, but if there's enough interest by others who can, then I'd be willing to contribute to ideas or wording where I can. soulgany 124.187.14.93 03:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Done as much I can for now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_Syndrome_and_Interpersonal_Relationships
Anyone care to have a tinker?? soulgany 124.187.14.93 13:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the above page is completely superfluous, as all the same positivistic slants are presented here. I recommend someone delete it.
Cheers Soulgany101 12:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Good. I put up some legitimate, referenced material about alexithymia and ToM, but Zereaph corrupted or deleted it again without offering discussion. I'm afraid I have not got the time to combat that kind of behaviour. It was worth a try. Soulgany101 21:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I was inspired by the original working spirit of CC, PP and myself toward the new article despite our obvious different positions on the subject. Unfortunately I am cynical about Zereaph's ability to let something balanced stand.
I have one alternative question: is it possible for someone to salvage anything original and referenced from the earier Interpersonal Relationships draft, and to insert it in an appropriate spot on this page? I think there is probably only a paragraph or two so-far on alexithymia/Mind-blindness and empathy, worth salvaging. In my thinking this would provide for a balanced presentation.
Soulgany101
22:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
PP. Your willingness to discuss and make positive contributions is much appreciated as i am an appalling novice in Wikipedia editing skill. Nevertheless, I'm finding the process a little overwhelming at present because of the 'one step forward, twenty steps back' experience. If I feel inspired in the days or weeks ahead I will seek your help with citations. Thanks again. Soulgany101 23:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
In fact, I think I will bow out of that article altogether. Not because I don't think there is a very legitimate subject there to be treated, but more because the forces against are discouraging for a novice. There is a skeleton there for others to work with if they wish (others who are up to speed on the do's and dont's, and will not waste thier time or effort by making mistakes). If there is no interest in alternative view then it really stands as a superfluous page. :-) Soulgany101 00:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This contribution should be deleted. If this contribution is kept, it should have a note appended stating that the author has NO credentials in mental health, and that it is only one man's opinion and has no scientific data to back it up. He admits this on his blog page at blogspot.com. James howard 37 02:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
By deleting this section this article now closes the door to hope for people with AS tendencies. This article is a key 'search the net' place for people being hurt by AS tendencies, and it now presents the 'accepted wisdom' that AS is untreatable and un-escapable from. It is just like a medieval cleric saying "of course the sun orbits the earth", slamming the door on any new thinking. Why not at least mention examples of people who have possibly escaped from AS, even if unproven? - because this could help other searching people to improve their lives and those of their loved ones. JC unlearningasperger.blogspot.com.
I am curious as to why this is up for cleanup. If it was a featured article and is "one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community", then why would it require cleanup? I, personally, see nowhere in the article that cleanup is necessary. If it is, please let me know where and I will glad to cleanup where needed, but I think the article is great as is. Take Care.... NeutralHomer T: C 03:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I just noticed you said you'd work on it, so I'll give you a list:
The article has barely squeaked through FAR twice, and it looks like the people who used to watch over the article are no longer watching it, and it's been trashed pretty well. I hope it can be cleaned up without a third FAR, but a large effort is needed, because I suspect most text will have to be checked against refs. You can see the version that passed FAR by clicking on the oldid in ArticleHistory; that will give you an idea of what has been changed or added. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Why did somebody put back in the "social impact" section? Whoever made the section seems to be pretty biased to people with A.S. like I am. Like I said, I have been told that I am gifted, and I can get a job and get married if I wanted to. As a whole, the section isn't biased, but for the most part it is. Sean90 20:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a few poorly worded sentences I'm going to take a stab at, I won't make any major changes w/o introducing them here first. In fairness to the tireless Wiki tribe; when text gets edited and re-edited sentence structure tends to break down organically.
I can't help thinking the constant idealogical tension regarding Asperger's is a result of colliding terminology. In this discussion and in other places, the word 'Aspergers' can be used to mean : a) a superior configuration of the brain, displaying enhanced memory, unconventional creativity, ability in artistic and verbal expression, in the mathematical sciences and displaying unusual fairness and honesty in their relations to each others. (Attwood, Baron Cohen, and Asperger make these observations ) People in this category use the Asperger term not because they satisfy the DSM criteria, but rather a neuropsychiatric exam reveals the traits that are the *operational* criteria for Asperger's : sensory perception and integration differences (a ticking clock may bother them), extremely precocious verbal ability as early as 5 years old. There is a part of the test for Asperger's called the Embedded Image test, on which the Aspie patient is seen to *outperform* NT's. These people have every right to the term because their doctors use it.
Or it can be B), another group that more closely matches the DSM, and experience - by their doctor's account and their own, difficulties in being productive, in having meaningful relationships, in understanding the emotional state of others, and so on. This group *also* has legitimate claim to the term.
These two groups are not disjoint; each person may identify with parts of each.
Or it can mean C), Amateur-Diagnosis-By-Proxy. Here I am referring to the use of the term Asperger's by fraudulent 'support' groups such as ASPAR, FAAAS and Maxine Aston, where the 'Asperger' person is not present, rather someone close to them *thinks* they have Asperger's, but there is not a proper diagnosis of any kind. This group will complain of *undiagnosed* Asperger's, which - if you think about it - is a contradiction in terms unless the patient later is diagnosed.
It would be *so* much easier to if group A) had one term, group B) had another, and group C stopped using the term altogether.
Ah, wishes and horses ... CeilingCrash 12:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Questions of bias aside, the Social Impact section has non credible sources and is non encyclopedic. I *think* this decision had already been reached here, the section deleted, and somebody put it back in. The sources are no good, and the content declares what an Aspie *needs to do*, which is of dubious veracity and not germaine to what Asperger's IS.
The National Autistic Society is not a peer-reviewed source of academic quality; neither is anything from Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Given all the academic-quality research being done on Asperger's, there is no reason for us to use any sources less credible.
Not to get into dispute over content, but Attwood's "theory of mind" has been universally rejected by later clinicians, and probably wouldn't have published in a peer-reviewed source.
CeilingCrash 15:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Proposed change, "Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the Autistic spectrum. It manifests in various ways and can have both positive and negative effects. It is typically characterized by issues with social and communication skills. Due to the mixed nature of its effects, it remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people who are diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome."
to
"Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the Autistic spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Issues with social communication (verbal and non-verbal) are nearly universal to those with Asperger's. Other characteristics vary greatly from person to person, these include : sensory integration/sensitivity issues, repetitive behavior, and 'stimming' behavior such as rocking [reference]. Positive characteristics have also been observed and vary greatly: enhanced memory, an advanced grasp of languaged as early as age 5 [reference], and mathematical talent [reference] which, in once case at least, is of historic impact [reference to Giorgi Perelman]. Due to the mixed nature of its effects, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people with the diagnosis.
208.49.146.130 17:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The deleted sections mentioned above - family relationships and reversal of symptoms - imply some people would like to read about new and unproven ideas and techniques that may help improve AS tendency lives, even if these are outside the scientific orthodoxy. Maybe Wiki should have an "unproven related ideas page - user beware!" function, on this and perhaps many other topics. AS, June 07
I didn't notice any mention of stemming in this article, even though this is a distinguishing characteristic. Angry Aspie 01:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I got reverted last time; this time i have waited for other folks to chime in, nobody has.
I am removing this section because, and only because : Almost all the sources referenced are non credible or non verifiable. Let me tick them off :
in 21, we have no page number.
In 22, 23, 24, 26, 31, 32, and 33, it comes from Jessica Kingsley publishers. I realize Attwood is a luminary, but when he writes in a non peer reviewed source it becomes non credible.
Jessica Kingsley publishers is not a traditional publishing house with an editing staff and fact-checking capability. I believe they are "subsidized" by the author, essentially self-published. In any case, no peer-review, no fact checking.
25 has no page number.
These don't even come close to academic quality. There is a pervasive and irreperable lapse in quality in this section. Absent any objection, I'm going to zap it.
CeilingCrash 03:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
These are precisely reasons to wipe out the entire section. those footnotes make up the whole section with only 2 credible sources left. Without page numbers, a source cannot be verified. The rule of thumb is, a reader should be able to take our article, and go check the references himself.
Truth does not enter into it. We judge verifiability to credible sources. The best source we can use is one from an academic, peer-reviwed journal. Wikipedia specifically warns against self-published books and websites such as Kingsley publishers.
Do I really need to go on? Further, I cannot rewrite this with better sources because the material has no better sources. In any case the burden of proof is on the original editor who put it there - wikipedia clearly states poorly sourced material should be removed.
This article is up for FAR and I am trying to make improvements. I wonder if I am wasting my time. CeilingCrash 04:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC) CeilingCrash 04:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I appeal to policy, not your convinceability.
There ARE NO BETTER sources because that material is non-credible in the first place. Wiki policy clearly states to remove poorly sourced material, it clearly does NOT state "something is better than nothing." For example, "theory of mind" has been subsequently rejected by virtually every researcher.
I have been the only one working on this article for the FAR, and now I'm going to stop. There are more pleasant ways of wasting my time.
"Screw you guys, I'm goin home!" -- Eric Cartman CeilingCrash 04:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have taken my medication and calmed down, sorry bout that ... Actually, I'm glad to have anybody here to talk to. I'm much less interested in the Social Impact section than the lede paragraph, I proposed a change ( a couple sections above ^ ) ; i don't like making it wordier, but i felt that lede should give the reader some feel for what Asperger's is, from the various schools of thought. Feedback would be welcome, and i promise not to quote eric cartman anymore ... CeilingCrash 05:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I like the first two sentences quite well. The third (difference from other autism is delay in early language development) I'm not as enthused about, because (a) the differences between an aspie and an LFA can be quite extreme, so this might give a wrong impression, and (b) the whole speech development thing is of questionable utility. Gillberg's diagnostic criteria said that you had to have delayed speech to be an aspie, and, pragmatically speaking, the diagnosis of one or the other seems to depend more on what doctor you saw and what sort of impression you made than on the various diagnostic guides. I also find persuasive Ozonoff's argument that it's a meaningless distinction because aspies and HFAs (above age 8 or so) should be treated identically.
Sentence 4: looks good. Sentence 5 (sensitivity issues, stimming) I'm fine with, but would lean towards "these may include" rather than "these include," since like you say, it's highly variable, and many aspies, as they get older, learn to manage their stimming to the point where it's no longer recognizable as such. Positive traits: memory, agreed. Language skills: agreed, I'd say even earlier than age 5 in some cases, but we need to be careful that we're not lumping it together with hyperlexia, which is technically a comorbidity (although how a superpower ever got termed a morbidity at all is beyond me). Math: yes, and I would consider adding sciences and engineering. Last sentence: dandy. So here would be my first attempt at an edit:
Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the Autistic spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. As with all forms of autism, there are general issues with social communication (verbal and non-verbal), but these tend to be less severe than in "low functioning autism."[references] Other characteristics vary greatly from person to person, but often include: sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ("stimming") behavior such as rocking, and intense but narrow areas of interest.[references] Positive characteristics have also been observed and vary greatly, these often include: enhanced memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences or language.[references like mad here, I think... curebies, as you say] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people with the diagnosis.
OK, your turn again -- see some things you don't like in my first draft? Poindexter Propellerhead 20:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Looking over the DSM criteria for autism and AS, there are 3 key differences. A major criterium for an autism diagnosis is impaired communication, which is totally absent from the AS criteria. Aspies are also required to have at least normal intellectual ability in non-social areas. And then there's the delayed speech issue. So here's another try...
Draft 2 -- still rough, but getting closer, I think:
Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the
autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. As with all forms of autism, there are stereotyped behaviors and impairments to social interaction, but an AS diagnosis requires normal intellectual development in non-social areas. A diagnosis of (non-AS) autism also requires deficits in communication skills which are not a part of the AS diagnostic criteria.[references] Most definitions have specified that delayed speech precludes a diagnosis of AS,[references] but agreement on this point has been less than universal; some diagnostic guides have even said the opposite.[references] Characteristics vary greatly from person to person, but often include: sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ("
stimming") behavior such as rocking, and intense but narrow areas of interest.[references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced memory, mental focus, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences or language.[references] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people with the diagnosis.
Draft 3 -- just trying to crunch sentence structure, put sentence object first, and other twiddling. no content changes :
Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes stereotyped behaviors and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' Autism in that speech and (non-social) intellect develop normally (or better). Some clinicians object to these differential criteria and seek other means of distinguishing Asperger's, still others claim the Asperger's category should be eliminated in favor of High Functioning Autism. [1]
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating (" stimming") behavior such as rocking, and intense but narrow areas of interest.[references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced memory, mental focus, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[21] or language[22].[references] Due to the mixed nature of its effects as well as continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
Quite by accident, i ended up swallowing paragraph two; the issue with Aspergers vs HFA flowed naturally when we introduced the differential criteria of speech- and cognitive- development.
This is starting to really feel right. Which is no small deal, since this will be the #1 google hit when a person types in "asperger's" !!
141.149.168.130
04:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Sounds OK to me. Let's let it sit here for a day or two to give any other interested parties a chance to add input (and for us to get our remaining references chosen), then proceed. If you feel like repeating this process with some other sections (yes, including Social Differences, which could probably be condensed into a few gracefully flowing paragraphs), I'd be up for that. Those who went before have done all of the hard work already; but, as well as making work light, many hands also make for an unseemly patchwork of ideas and styles. With some polishing, I think this article can have the best of both worlds, and the added bonus (if anyone cares) of renewed FA status. Poindexter Propellerhead 02:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Should we mention, among the deficits, difficulty interpreting non-verbal social cues? CeilingCrash 02:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Changes in bold. Don't know if 'focussed' rather than 'narrow' is too neuro-optimistic :-b Added a couple of social deficits ...
Version 0.5:
Asperger syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate.
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: intensely focussed areas of interest, sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ("stimming") behavior such as rocking, difficulty interpreting facial expressions and non-verbal social cues.[references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced mental focus, memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[21] or language[22].[other references] Due to the mixed nature of its effects as well as continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
There is significant confusion surrounding the difference between AS and the loosely-defined category of high functioning autism("HFA"). While mildly autistic individuals may be diagnosed as HFA because they fail to meet one or more of the diagnostic criteria for AS, it is common for diagnosis to be influenced by non-technical issues, such as availability of government benefits for one condition but not the other.[ref: Attwood, Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, pp. 150-151] Until a formal definition for HFA is agreed upon, and until practice conforms with theory, the distinction between the two is likely to remain murky. CeilingCrash 17:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, this is more like 0.6 than 0.5.1. Here goes:
Asperger syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate.
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: intensely focused areas of interest, sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ('stimming') behavior such as rocking, difficulty interpreting facial expressions and other social cues. [references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced mental focus, memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[21] or language[22].[other references]
There is significant confusion surrounding the difference between AS and the broader category of high functioning autism (HFA). While neither AS or HFA have single, universally agreed upon definitions, most diagnostic guides draw a division based on whether or not the subject develops speech skills by the usual age, with delayed speech indicating a diagnosis of HFA rather than AS. [references] A minority take the opposite position; that delayed onset of speech is be required for a diagnosis of AS. [17] Diagnostic tests and other tools are naturally as varied as the criteria. [4]
Other clinicians dispute the view that AS is differentiated from other autistic spectrum disorders. Instead they refer to Asperger's as HFA, or treat the diagnoses interchangably. These researchers argue that language delay is a difference in degree and not kind. [1] Even among those who feel that the differences between AS and HFA are significant, it is common for diagnosis to be influenced by non-technical issues, such as availability of government benefits for one condition but not the other. [ref: Attwood, Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, pp. 150-151] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, and continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
(That leaves us with a leftover section on diagnosis, which might be better moved into a later part of the article.)
AS is often not identified in early childhood, and many individuals are not diagnosed until they are adults. Assistance for core symptoms of AS consists of therapies that apply behaviour management strategies and address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness. Many individuals with AS can adopt strategies for coping and do lead fulfilling lives - being gainfully employed, having successful relationships, and having families. In most cases, they are aware of their differences and can recognize if they need any support to maintain an independent life.[4]
I like it. We're going to inadvertently rewrite the whole thing as we keep eating subsequent paragraphs! And why not ?
I just tightened some sentences, and deleted the last sentence of paragraph 3 as it seemed to break the flow and seemed obvious (i may be wrong on this. Otherwise i just tightened a few sentences :
0.6.1.1
Asperger syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive[21] and negative[11] effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate.
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: intensely focused areas of interest, sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ('stimming') behavior such as rocking, difficulty interpreting facial expressions and other social cues. [references] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced mental focus, memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[21] or language[22].[other references]
There is significant controversy over the difference between AS and the broader category of high functioning autism (HFA). While neither AS nor HFA have universally accepted definitions, most diagnostic manuals distinguish the two according to speech development. Delayed speech indicates HFA; normal onset of speech indicates Asperger's. [references] However, at least one diagnostic guide takes the opposite position; that delayed onset of speech is required for a diagnosis of AS. [17]
Some clinicians deny that AS is differentiated from other autistic spectrum disorders at all. Instead they refer to Asperger's as HFA, or treat the diagnoses interchangably, arguing that language delay is a difference in degree and not kind. [1] Even among those who feel that the differences between AS and HFA are significant, it is common for diagnoses to be influenced by non-technical issues, such as availability of government benefits for one condition but not the other. [ref: Attwood, Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, pp. 150-151][Here's an even better one, in online PDF form: www.sacramentoasis.com/docs/8-22-03/as_&_hfa.pdf] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, and continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
(That leaves us with a leftover section on diagnosis, which might be better moved into a later part of the article.)
AS is often not identified in early childhood, and many individuals are not diagnosed until they are adults. Assistance for core symptoms of AS consists of therapies that apply behaviour management strategies and address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness. Many individuals with AS can adopt strategies for coping and do lead fulfilling lives - being gainfully employed, having successful relationships, and having families. In most cases, they are aware of their differences and can recognize if they need any support to maintain an independent life.[4]
I think we've got really good balance in each of these paragraphs, and they are in perfect cascading order of importance. CeilingCrash 02:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Adding references in-place to above final draft ... 208.49.146.130 17:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
[1] Tony Attwood, _The Complete Guide to Asperger's_, ??? page number, Jessica Kingsley Publishers, London, UK. 2007
[21] Simon Baron-Cohen, Sally Wheelwright, Richard Skinner, Joanne Martin and Emma Clubley The Autism-Spectrum Quotient (AQ): Evidence from Asperger Syndrome/High-Functioning Autism, Males and Females, Scientists and Mathematicians, _Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, Vol 31-1, February 2001
more to come, i'm going to shore up [21] with another reference to Asperger, as this is likely to be contentious.
CeilingCrash
19:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
CeilingCrash 01:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I've forgotten too much of my German to translate at more than a snail's pace. But if you know of a place where the original text is online, I could translate any particular passages that there seemed a pressing need for. Poindexter Propellerhead 02:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, i didn't get to citations this am, but i till tomorrow and perhaps we can post the opening section CeilingCrash 76.19.39.205 03:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
im just asking cuz i am doing a report on it. Can teens get boyfriends or girlfriends? will they eventually get married
Ive been In a few relationships now and my parents think I have aspthingy, but I dont have any symtons but then again my parents dont even know me. TaylorLTD 00:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, seeing as how AS is commonly believed to be passed genetically through parents, it is obvious that it is possible. Also, as a person with AS, I have had enough success.
Just adding citations ...
0.6.1.1
Asperger syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the autism spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive[n1][n2][n3][1][2] and negative effects on a person's life. Like other forms of autism, Asperger's includes repetitive behavior patterns and impairment in social interaction. However, Asperger's differs from 'classic' autism in that non-social aspects of intellectual development generally proceed at a normal or accelerated rate[6]
Characteristics of Asperger's vary greatly from person to person but often include: intensely focused areas of interest, sensory integration/sensitivity issues, self-stimulating ('stimming') behavior such as rocking, difficulty interpreting facial expressions and other social cues. [6] Positive characteristics have also been observed, these often include: enhanced mental focus, memory, and an intuitive understanding of logical systems, which may manifest itself as talent in mathematics, engineering, sciences[n1][n2][n3] or language[n4].
There is significant controversy over the difference between AS and the broader category of high functioning autism (HFA). While neither AS nor HFA have universally accepted definitions [n5] , most diagnostic manuals distinguish the two according to speech development. Delayed speech indicates HFA; normal onset of speech indicates Asperger's.[6] However, at least one diagnostic guide takes the opposite position; that delayed onset of speech favors a diagnosis of AS. [n8]
Some clinicians deny that AS is differentiated from other autistic spectrum disorders at all[n7]. Instead they refer to Asperger's as HFA, or treat the diagnoses interchangably, arguing that language delay is a difference in degree and not kind. [n7][1]. Even among those who feel that the differences between AS and HFA are significant, it is common for diagnoses to be influenced by non-technical issues, such as availability of government benefits for one condition but not the other. [n6] [Here's an even better one, in online PDF form: www.sacramentoasis.com/docs/8-22-03/as_&_hfa.pdf] Due to the mixed nature of its effects, and continued debate over its definition, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, clinicians, and people with the diagnosis.
(That leaves us with a leftover section on diagnosis, which might be better moved into a later part of the article.)
AS is often not identified in early childhood, and many individuals are not diagnosed until they are adults. Assistance for core symptoms of AS consists of therapies that apply behaviour management strategies and address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness. Many individuals with AS can adopt strategies for coping and do lead fulfilling lives - being gainfully employed, having successful relationships, and having families. In most cases, they are aware of their differences and can recognize if they need any support to maintain an independent life.[4]
new:
[n1] Tony Attwood, _The Complete Guide to Asperger's_, ??? page number, Jessica Kingsley Publishers, London, UK. 2007
[n2] Simon Baron-Cohen, Sally Wheelwright, Richard Skinner, Joanne Martin and Emma Clubley Autism-Spectrum Quotient (AQ): Evidence from Asperger Syndrome/High-Functioning Autism, Males and Females, Scientists and Mathematicians, _Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders_, Vol 31-1, February 2001
[n3] Asperger H. Die ‘autischen Psychopathen’ Kindesalter. Arch Psychiatrie Nervenkrankheiten 1944;17: 76-136. Pertinent quotations translated to english : http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=539373
[n4] Fred Volkmar, M.D., director of the Yale Child Study Center. Psychiatric News October 6, 2006 Volume 41, Number 19, page 21 "These are kids who talk before they can walk." http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/41/19/21
[n5] Patricia Howlin, PhD, Fred Volkmar, M.D, Sadie Dingfelder, A Dilemma of Definition, American Psychology Association Volume 35, No. 11 December 2004, page 48 http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec04/definition.html
[n6] Attwood, Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, pp. 150-151
[n7] Mayes SD, Calhoun SL, Crites DL. "Does DSM-IV Asperger's disorder exist?" J Abnorm Child Psychol. 2001 Jun;29(3):263-71 PMID: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=11411788
[n8] (Gillberg's criteria may be found at Christopher_Gillberg or at http://web.syr.edu/~rjkopp/data/as_diag_list.html if that suits you better.)
pre-existing :
[1] Brasic, JR. Pervasive Developmental Disorder: Asperger Syndrome. eMedicine.com (April 10, 2006). Retrieved 7 July 2006.
[2] Treffert, DA. Asperger's Disorder and Savant Syndrome. Wisconsin Medical Society. Retrieved on 19 July 2006.
[6] BehaveNet® Clinical Capsule™. DSM-IV & DSM-IV-TR: Asperger's Disorder (AD). Retrieved 28 June 2006.
[12] Ozonoff S, Rogers SJ, Pennington BF. "Asperger's syndrome: evidence of an empirical distinction from high-functioning autism." Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry. 1991 Nov;32(7):1107–22. PMID
[26] Attwood, Tony (1997). Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals. Jessica Kingsley Pub., London. ISBN, pp. ?? "At present, the results suggest there seems to be no meaningful difference between [Asperger syndrome and high-functioning autism]. They are more the same than they are different."
more to come ... obviously i am citing the H*LL out of this in anticipation of spurious objections ... CeilingCrash 04:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
http://www.aspergerdefense.com/asp_1944.pdf
http://www.socialanxiety.com/area-aspergers.html appears to be a bit of an ad,no? User:Serprex 15:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
And a non sequitur to boot ... CeilingCrash 05:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
The link for the AQ questionnaire is an online dating site which requires one's e-mail before spitting out a result. 67.49.247.73 18:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Seriously tho' I have been known to have a few of these symptoms. Bassium!
I finally got that put in, sorry for the long delay. CeilingCrash, would you happen to have a page number for citation #1? I don't have that book. Poindexter Propellerhead 07:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Love it, PP !! Let me look up that citation ... OK, I put in the page number (and an exerpt) for reference 1. A winning opening section if ever i saw one! -- CeilingCrash 17:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
This morning the h2g2 template was done away with (for the second time), in the belief that we should not facilitate links to encyclopedias with which we have no established relationship, and which are viewed as competition. [2] It was not related to reliability especially, we continue to have templates for dozens of sources which are not considered reliable, from answers.com to dmoz.org to comixpedia to imdb. [3]
Noticing the newly redlinked template, an attentive editor deleted it. Not wanting to see content disappear over a broken template, I found the article [4] and put in a working link. Another editor then deleted it again, questioning the appropriateness of including an unreliable encyclopedia as even an external link.
I looked over the article, and felt like it had something to contribute; it's written in a non-encyclopedic style, easy to read and non-technical, which seemed like a good counterbalance to our mostly very academic cites. I didn't notice any particular inaccuracies in it, or any strong POV issues.
Anyway, I'd like some feel for what (if any) the community's consensus on this article is. I'm inclined towards keeping it. Other opinions?
Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.
IMO that describes the h2g2 article quite well. I'm now in favour of adding the link. As there seems to be consensus on this page for readding the link, I'll add it back. Graham 87 07:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The average human has atleast one phobia. I don't see why fear of flushing toilets is any less rational than fear of buttons or string. Why is this connected to Asperger Syndrome? 80.178.59.139 22:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, anxiety and depression are well documented to often accompany asperger's; i'm not sure what the original author was trying to say. Certainly an aspie will learn to fear certain situations an NT will not, especially those he is less competent in. On a personal note, NT's scare the bejeezus out of me :-b CeilingCrash 19:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
i'm wondering about this. what are the differences between PDD-NOS and asperger syndrome? the only visible difference i can see is motor function problems - and i know some, diagnosed with asperger syndrome, who dont have motor function problems. is their diagnosis incorrect? 80.178.59.139 08:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
for personal announcements or information. For example, tomorrow is CeilingCrash's birthday. He is going to be 41. Not only would such an announcement on the Talk pages be entirely-out-of-place, but provides us a vivid example of a shameless request for Happy Birthday notices. CeilingCrash 19:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Now, we're not here to determine truth, rather, verifiability. But it's verifiability to credible sources, credible literally meaning "believable", so we get tangled up in truth despite our fervent vow to the contrary.
Attwood has said some things that are ... disturbing ... in the sense of his being a present RS. On the one hand, the man is huge in Asperger's, he is literally over 7,000 feet tall. On the other hand, he is beginning to say stuff that isn't just false (let he without sin ...) but absurd prima face
In fairness to Attwood, excerpts from talks should not be given the same weight as work he has published and submitted to peer review. It is *very* easy to make an incomplete extemporaneous remark, response to a question, or be taken out of context.
We've also got to be careful with Attwood; the book that made him famous was a general survey of the topic, not new research (Attwood, Tony. Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, Jessica Kingseley Publishers). This book was not peer reviewed nor subject to other academic standards. I got curious about kingsley publishers and actually went thru most of the manuscript submission process. If you pay them, they will print anything you want. Editing costs extra. If you want peer review, you provide them names of ppl who vouche for it.
Now, Attwood's fame and the world-recognized quality of his first book well compensate for this oddity, I believe. But Attwood, unlike his classmate Baron-Cohen, has never done any scientific research (please somebody correct me if i'm wrong on this point.) He himself repeatedly warns his conclusions are based on clinical data (experience with patients wandering in). This introduces the now familiar Selection Bias problem that led freud to conclude the psyche could be cured by the application of greek mythology to the genitals.
With this background in mind, here are some things he has said. Above we have the star-trek convention remark. Here Attwood actively discourages partners of Aspies some seeking professional help, and guides them to 'grass root' internet forums :
"With Asperger's, life is a stage," Attwood said. "The curtain goes up while they are in public and down when they are at home. Because other people do not see the problem, they question your sanity - you are on your own. In some families, denial has held the family together for generations, and you want to bring down the scaffolding." ...
"You cannot get this knowledge from professionals. contact with other partners through newsletters, a support group, or an Internet site is vital"
[This is a disgraceful abdication of his own profession. The reason you can't get this information from professionals is that it is unsubstantiated and indefensible. Attwood could write this into his next book, thus making it available from professionals - but he knows that he can't. The implication that only partners of aspies are fit to counsel other partners is troubling as well. A neuropsych disorder is no place for anti-intellectual folk psychology]
[There is another quotation where he says Aspie husband fall into 3 categories, all of which are bad. i'll insert it later.]
Attwood nowhere suggests the NT may be the source of trouble in a relationship. (There are lots more ways to be screwed up than the A. Spectrum!)
What is driving Attwood? Where is the voice of reason, "if you're having trouble in a relationship with an Aspie, get yourself some professional and qualified advice and by the way - don't forget you may be the problem ..."
I can only guess. It is worth noting that, autism began in the domain of psychology but is moving to the realm of neurology, psychopharmacology and genetics. There isn't all that much for a psychologist to do for us. They did enuf damage with the Ice Box mom theory already.
But partners of Aspies - cha-ching! Traumatized by life events ... let's have a ... workshop !!!
Attwood and Aston do business together, along with an organization called FAAAS. They put on workshops here in the US, Attwood speaks, he gets paid, promotes his books as well. Along with Karen Rodman, founder of FAAAS, they form a transnational unholy trinity spanning the US, UK, and Australia.
Aston always - always - references attwood in her essays to get reflected credibility. She likes to put her name and his in the same sentence. Aston publishes through - you guessed it - Jessica Kingseley Publishers, so there are no pesky issues with peer review or even editing.
And worst of all, Attwood's latest book, The Complete Guide to Asperger’s Syndrome , has a very stange last chapter. All about relationships, filled with references to Aston (who has done no scientific research.) But check the bibliography - the last chapter doesn't exist. It appears the last chapter was added late in the publication process, after all his other sources were vetted. For Attwood to expend his credibility on the likes of Aston seems tragic to me.
I should close by saying that I believe Tony is a man of great intellect and great heart who appears to respect and even admire some aspie differences. But I believe there are serious questions as to Attwood's credibility. Remember his publications slipped by peer review, i think he has used up his free 'pass' at this point and we have to look at him more critically. My issue with Attwood is not political. Baron Cohen has said some pretty vile things, but he backs them up with research so i hold my tongue.
I may cross-post this to the main Asp talk page ... </rant> CeilingCrash
This is just SO irresponsible. Attwood is about to get a personal flea in his ear from me on this:
"With Asperger's, life is a stage," Attwood said. "The curtain goes up while they are in public and down when they are at home. Because other people do not see the problem, they question your sanity - you are on your own. In some families, denial has held the family together for generations, and you want to bring down the scaffolding." ...
"You cannot get this knowledge from professionals. contact with other partners through newsletters, a support group, or an Internet site is vital"
Has he ever BEEN to an "internet support forum", does he have a single CLUE how toxic and abusive most of them are right up to Admin/Guru level?
Was he drunk? -- Zeraeph 14:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC) [crosspost by CC CeilingCrash 18:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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