Moved to talk, needs some explanation and NPOV. — siro χ o
In Plato's dialogue Menexenus, Socrates says "That I should be able to make the speech would be nothing wonderful, Menexenus; for she who is my instructor is by no means weak in the art of rhetoric; on the contrary, she has turned out many fine orators, and amongst them one who surpassed all other Greeks, Pericles, the son of Xanthippus." So, she was apparently one of his teachers, at least. Adam Bishop 15:03, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I wonder what is the source for the claim "...but closer to the Japanese geisha"??
Then the courtesan article needs work; courtesan and prositute have different (if overlapping) meanings. Septentrionalis 05:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Why has this article been made a Featured article and kept unprotected? -- Kerowren ( talk • contribs • count) 19:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
If the source for Aspasia's marriage to Lysicles is Plutarch, it fails verificaiion. The translation cited says:
The Greek word in synonta, which is as broad as the English. Both can mean "live together as man and wife", but need not do so. A secondary source would be necessary for this interpretation and I don't see one cited; I consulted the the OCD and they say "took up with".
(added in edit conflict)We should not, in any case, use "allegedly" married; the worst possible weasel-word is one that doesn't weasel.
It is also unconventional, when ancient source A cites B, and B's text cannot be verified, to mention B in text. We know that ancient authors have misquoted and misunderstood other ancient authors; but this one is easy to fix. Septentrionalis 05:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Two quotations for the Perseus encyclopedia are worth bearing in mind. On the one hand, "Modern scholars agree that the basic facts of Aspasia's life as recorded by Diodoros the Athenian (FGrHist 372 F 40 ), Plutarch (Plut. Per. 24.3 ) and the lexicographers are correct." This may in context be a quite limited statement; but as far as it goes, we can put the sources for citizenship, birthdate, and so forth in the notes.
On the other hand, "Plutarch relates more information about Aspasia than any other ancient author. Unfortunately, Plutarch's Lives are full of distortions and historical inaccuracies. His purpose in the Lives was to exemplify the virtues and vices of great men, not to write history." And, as they add, much of what he does say is from Athenian comedies. Septentrionalis 05:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Stadter's comment about Aspasia's "involvement" with Lysicles (Stadter has written the most detailed commentary on Plutarch):
"Lysicles was mocked for his connection with trade, as was Cleon "the tan- ner," though both were wealthy men. He may be identical with the general who died in action in Caria in 428/27 (Thuc. 3.19.1; cf. Gomme, HCT ad loc.; PA 9417). If so, it raises the question when Aspasia began to associate with him, as Pericles had died only shortly before. Was it while Pericles was still alive? Aspasia's rela- tion to Lysicles, like that to Pericles, furnished material for the comic poets and philosophers. The name of his son, Poristes ("Supplier"), is extraordinary and may be a comedian's joke. As- pasia could not have been his legal wife any more than Pericles'."
So I think "involved with" is indeed better than "married". I just want to explain why I still regrad "allegedly" necessary. Because we are not even sure if Aspasia hat any involvement with Lysicle. I repeat what Khan says:
"According to Kahn, stories, such as Socrates' visits to Aspasia along with his friends' wives and Lysicles' connection with Aspasia, are not likely to be historical. He believes that Aeschines was indifferent to the historicity of his Athenian stories and that these stories must have been invented at a time, when the date of Lysicles' death had been forgotten, but his occupation still remembered."
I've noted that in the article. So we have two ananswered questions:
So, that is way the best phrasing for the lead in: "she was allegedly involved with Pericles". That is what I edited, but I'm open to any proposals.-- Yannismarou 15:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
While I think it a nice touch that the notes section is ordered alpha, beta, gamma, etc., is that just a clever tie-in to the relation of the subject of the article to Greece, or is that how a Notes section is typically done? Just curious, it's cute but is it within the WP:MOS guidelines? -- Fbv 65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 00:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi This is clearly an excellent article, but is also original research, that's what makes it so good. How come, then, that some wikipedians insist on dleting material that has been assembled from different sorces as OR? Tony 13:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Tony
Bootch is my favorite person ever
This phrase in the intro has to be cancelled, but i cannot find it in the edit page! can anyone delete it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.48.126.28 ( talk) 15:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
I just wanted to bring this to the attention of the moderators. When I saw this article featured, I clicked 'more' to read the rest. I found that the page had been vandalized (there were incongruous references to 'penis', 'vagina', and 'ball sack', which clearly had nothing to do with the article). When I logged in, I found the vandalism was gone. While I suppose it may have been corrected in the brief time span between my noticing it and logging in, I wonder if the vandalism only displays on the non-logged in version of the page? Arijaal 18:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)arijaal
There are no ancient sources given for the claim that she was not a prostitute, which is an opinion I think the ancient authors were actually unanimous on, weren't they? The only sources cited presently on the issue are modern sources. The ancient authors who claimed that she was a whore certainly weren't all "comic poets." It's obvious that there is some feminist revisionism going on here. The view of the contributors here needs to address the tradition that she was a prostitute, rather than simply burying them under modern feminist interpretations. Sources, ladies. Ocanter 00:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I can easily prove your blatant POV based on the (reverted fortunately) edits of yours in the first paragraph of the lead. The current NPOV wording is this:
Per Merriam-Webster Dictionary "renowned" means "known far and wide". I strive to understand where is the POV here, but I fail to achieve that. "Renowned" is obviously NPOV and neutral and it stays. OK for the removal of "romantic".--
Yannismarou
20:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Ocanter 20:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Without agreeing with much of what Ocanter says above, I do think the intro is a bit strange. Aspasia is usually described in classical scholarship as Pericles' mistress or as a hetaira, e.g. "Aspasia, Milesian-born mistress of *Percles (1) from c.445 BC when he divorced his wife." (Oxford Classical Dictionary, s.v. "Aspasia"). Or "The most famous woman in classical Athens, the only one who rates an entry in the Oxford Classical Dictionary and could be the subject of a full-length biography, is the hetaira Aspasia." (Sarah B. Pomeroy, review of Prisoner of History: Aspasia of Miletus and Her Biographical Tradition, American Journal of Philology 117 (1996) p. 648. The phrasing "was famous for her involvement with the Athenian statesman Pericles" isn't good, in my opinion; "involvement" is non-specific, and not helpful for the reader--it could mean she was a friend, a political ally, a girlfriend, who knows?
Further, I have to agree that "widely known woman of ancient Greece who was famous" is awkward because it repeats the concept of "famous". Aspasia may well be "widely known" but the main reason she is famous is because she was Pericles' mistress. Her appearances in Attic comedy, the Menexenus, and Plutarch all depend on her connection with Pericles.
By the way, Ocanter, if you're urging people to read something, it would be nice to provide a citation. Is the Gale article you're talking about Gale, “Historical Studies and Postmodernism: Rereading Aspasia of Miletus.” College English. 62:3 (Jan. 2000): 361-86? --Akhilleus ( talk) 21:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution
Ocanter, I agree it would be nice if Aldux joined the discussion, but your tone is more combative than necessary, and has been since you started contributing to the page. It's pretty easy to conclude that someone who starts out by saying "this article sucks!" isn't interested in being helpful, and people who repeatedly complain about "admin abuse" tend to be dismissed as trolls. So I advise you to be less combative, and then I think you'll find that Yannis and Aldux are quite reasonable people--I've certainly found them so in the past. --Akhilleus ( talk) 05:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
tags in a paragraph which is cited. I repeat: first we discuss changes here; then we implement them. After all, I am the main editor of this article, whether you like it or not. I'm happy Akhilleus and Aldux are contributing to this discussion and have commented on your unfortunate intervention. I'm also thinking about asking Robth to have a look at the article. I'll do whatever it takes for protecting the article's quality from your ioffensive. Unfortunately, what stinks is your attitude; not the article. Cheers!--
Yannismarou
07:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)There would seen to be a couple of statements that need sources:
she may have influenced Pericles and Athenian politics
She is believed to have become the courtesan of Lysicles
Tony 19:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Tony
She is believed to have become the courtesan of Lysicles,
According to Aeschines Socraticus, Lysicles married Aspasia after Pericles's death.
Yannis, Aldux, and ffm have insisted I discuss any changes I should like to make here before making them, and Aldux has threatened to use his admin power to block me from editing the article. Yet none of them has addressed any of the issues I've raised. Let's stick to the simplest issue. The first statement in the main body needs a citation. I think you can all see that. You've insisted that I clear all my changes by Yannis, the "main editor," and you've claimed that you can prevent me from making these changes unless Yannis approves them. You've all insisted that I discuss any changes here. Yet you have not engaged in the discussion I began yesterday on this topic. That statement needs a citation. I made a citation, and ffm reverted it immediately, without discussion. If you are not willing to discuss anything, how can you insist I "discuss changes" here? With whom shall I discuss them? Akhilleus is the only one who is discussing anything. You can't insist I "discuss" something, and then remain mute, simply reverting and making no attempt at discussion, and threatening to use admin power to win an edit war. Ocanter 14:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Looking back over the above discussion, I realize that my initial language, though blunt, was nowhere near as combative as that of Yannismarou. I also see that my initial violation of 3RR was not as severe or as early as Yannismarou's. I also see that although I posted my ideas for discussion every time before I made any edits, Aldux simply reverted without discussion, and in fact he has yet to comment on any of the content at all, except to threaten to ban me in the change logs. ffm has also not said anything about the actual content. Akhilleus' advice is generally good, and I am trying to follow it, but I cannot see that I should have to discuss it for 48 hours and obtain Yannis' permission before adding a citation to an unsourced fact.
I also see that if you look at the change logs, there was some real progress made during the time Yannis and I were working on the article, whereas progress halted as soon as Aldux threatened to ban me. In fact, the new lead, which I think everyone can see is more concise and more neutral, is due not only to my attempts at obtaining a NPOV, but also to Yannis' attempts at making it more neutral still. I believe that is how wikipedia is supposed to work.
I do not see that Aldux is helping anything by reverting my work without comment and threatening to block me. If he will step out of the way, I think progress can continue. I think Yannis' edits of my edits were generally better and more neutral than what we started with. That is the only way progress is going to happen here. I am not getting any discussion out of you guys on the content. I cannot wait 48 hours for you guys to reach "concensus" on whether we should add a citation to an unsourced claim. WP guidelines require a citation. I don't need Yannis' permission to add one.
I do not say this to start another conflict but to avoid one: tomorrow I will begin again, making careful, precise edits, introducing the material I have already attempted to discuss here on the talk page. If I do not get any discussion on the content issues I raised (48 hours ago), I am going to begin work again by introducing the necessary citations for Aspasia's birthplace, under "Origin." If I am unable to add a necessary citation for an unsourced fact, I will have to seek help through mediation.
Respectfully, Ocanter 22:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking of putting links from the Citations to the primary and secondary sources, as at Che Guevara and as described/discussed here. Comments? ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 20:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure I understand this statement:
"Aspasia would have to have been quite young, if she were able to bear a child to Lysicles c. 428 BC."
If Aspasia is born c. 470, she is 42 in 428 B.C. Cdg1072 ( talk) 17:25, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
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Moved to talk, needs some explanation and NPOV. — siro χ o
In Plato's dialogue Menexenus, Socrates says "That I should be able to make the speech would be nothing wonderful, Menexenus; for she who is my instructor is by no means weak in the art of rhetoric; on the contrary, she has turned out many fine orators, and amongst them one who surpassed all other Greeks, Pericles, the son of Xanthippus." So, she was apparently one of his teachers, at least. Adam Bishop 15:03, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I wonder what is the source for the claim "...but closer to the Japanese geisha"??
Then the courtesan article needs work; courtesan and prositute have different (if overlapping) meanings. Septentrionalis 05:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Why has this article been made a Featured article and kept unprotected? -- Kerowren ( talk • contribs • count) 19:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
If the source for Aspasia's marriage to Lysicles is Plutarch, it fails verificaiion. The translation cited says:
The Greek word in synonta, which is as broad as the English. Both can mean "live together as man and wife", but need not do so. A secondary source would be necessary for this interpretation and I don't see one cited; I consulted the the OCD and they say "took up with".
(added in edit conflict)We should not, in any case, use "allegedly" married; the worst possible weasel-word is one that doesn't weasel.
It is also unconventional, when ancient source A cites B, and B's text cannot be verified, to mention B in text. We know that ancient authors have misquoted and misunderstood other ancient authors; but this one is easy to fix. Septentrionalis 05:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Two quotations for the Perseus encyclopedia are worth bearing in mind. On the one hand, "Modern scholars agree that the basic facts of Aspasia's life as recorded by Diodoros the Athenian (FGrHist 372 F 40 ), Plutarch (Plut. Per. 24.3 ) and the lexicographers are correct." This may in context be a quite limited statement; but as far as it goes, we can put the sources for citizenship, birthdate, and so forth in the notes.
On the other hand, "Plutarch relates more information about Aspasia than any other ancient author. Unfortunately, Plutarch's Lives are full of distortions and historical inaccuracies. His purpose in the Lives was to exemplify the virtues and vices of great men, not to write history." And, as they add, much of what he does say is from Athenian comedies. Septentrionalis 05:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Stadter's comment about Aspasia's "involvement" with Lysicles (Stadter has written the most detailed commentary on Plutarch):
"Lysicles was mocked for his connection with trade, as was Cleon "the tan- ner," though both were wealthy men. He may be identical with the general who died in action in Caria in 428/27 (Thuc. 3.19.1; cf. Gomme, HCT ad loc.; PA 9417). If so, it raises the question when Aspasia began to associate with him, as Pericles had died only shortly before. Was it while Pericles was still alive? Aspasia's rela- tion to Lysicles, like that to Pericles, furnished material for the comic poets and philosophers. The name of his son, Poristes ("Supplier"), is extraordinary and may be a comedian's joke. As- pasia could not have been his legal wife any more than Pericles'."
So I think "involved with" is indeed better than "married". I just want to explain why I still regrad "allegedly" necessary. Because we are not even sure if Aspasia hat any involvement with Lysicle. I repeat what Khan says:
"According to Kahn, stories, such as Socrates' visits to Aspasia along with his friends' wives and Lysicles' connection with Aspasia, are not likely to be historical. He believes that Aeschines was indifferent to the historicity of his Athenian stories and that these stories must have been invented at a time, when the date of Lysicles' death had been forgotten, but his occupation still remembered."
I've noted that in the article. So we have two ananswered questions:
So, that is way the best phrasing for the lead in: "she was allegedly involved with Pericles". That is what I edited, but I'm open to any proposals.-- Yannismarou 15:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
While I think it a nice touch that the notes section is ordered alpha, beta, gamma, etc., is that just a clever tie-in to the relation of the subject of the article to Greece, or is that how a Notes section is typically done? Just curious, it's cute but is it within the WP:MOS guidelines? -- Fbv 65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 00:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi This is clearly an excellent article, but is also original research, that's what makes it so good. How come, then, that some wikipedians insist on dleting material that has been assembled from different sorces as OR? Tony 13:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Tony
Bootch is my favorite person ever
This phrase in the intro has to be cancelled, but i cannot find it in the edit page! can anyone delete it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.48.126.28 ( talk) 15:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
I just wanted to bring this to the attention of the moderators. When I saw this article featured, I clicked 'more' to read the rest. I found that the page had been vandalized (there were incongruous references to 'penis', 'vagina', and 'ball sack', which clearly had nothing to do with the article). When I logged in, I found the vandalism was gone. While I suppose it may have been corrected in the brief time span between my noticing it and logging in, I wonder if the vandalism only displays on the non-logged in version of the page? Arijaal 18:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)arijaal
There are no ancient sources given for the claim that she was not a prostitute, which is an opinion I think the ancient authors were actually unanimous on, weren't they? The only sources cited presently on the issue are modern sources. The ancient authors who claimed that she was a whore certainly weren't all "comic poets." It's obvious that there is some feminist revisionism going on here. The view of the contributors here needs to address the tradition that she was a prostitute, rather than simply burying them under modern feminist interpretations. Sources, ladies. Ocanter 00:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I can easily prove your blatant POV based on the (reverted fortunately) edits of yours in the first paragraph of the lead. The current NPOV wording is this:
Per Merriam-Webster Dictionary "renowned" means "known far and wide". I strive to understand where is the POV here, but I fail to achieve that. "Renowned" is obviously NPOV and neutral and it stays. OK for the removal of "romantic".--
Yannismarou
20:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Ocanter 20:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Without agreeing with much of what Ocanter says above, I do think the intro is a bit strange. Aspasia is usually described in classical scholarship as Pericles' mistress or as a hetaira, e.g. "Aspasia, Milesian-born mistress of *Percles (1) from c.445 BC when he divorced his wife." (Oxford Classical Dictionary, s.v. "Aspasia"). Or "The most famous woman in classical Athens, the only one who rates an entry in the Oxford Classical Dictionary and could be the subject of a full-length biography, is the hetaira Aspasia." (Sarah B. Pomeroy, review of Prisoner of History: Aspasia of Miletus and Her Biographical Tradition, American Journal of Philology 117 (1996) p. 648. The phrasing "was famous for her involvement with the Athenian statesman Pericles" isn't good, in my opinion; "involvement" is non-specific, and not helpful for the reader--it could mean she was a friend, a political ally, a girlfriend, who knows?
Further, I have to agree that "widely known woman of ancient Greece who was famous" is awkward because it repeats the concept of "famous". Aspasia may well be "widely known" but the main reason she is famous is because she was Pericles' mistress. Her appearances in Attic comedy, the Menexenus, and Plutarch all depend on her connection with Pericles.
By the way, Ocanter, if you're urging people to read something, it would be nice to provide a citation. Is the Gale article you're talking about Gale, “Historical Studies and Postmodernism: Rereading Aspasia of Miletus.” College English. 62:3 (Jan. 2000): 361-86? --Akhilleus ( talk) 21:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution
Ocanter, I agree it would be nice if Aldux joined the discussion, but your tone is more combative than necessary, and has been since you started contributing to the page. It's pretty easy to conclude that someone who starts out by saying "this article sucks!" isn't interested in being helpful, and people who repeatedly complain about "admin abuse" tend to be dismissed as trolls. So I advise you to be less combative, and then I think you'll find that Yannis and Aldux are quite reasonable people--I've certainly found them so in the past. --Akhilleus ( talk) 05:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
tags in a paragraph which is cited. I repeat: first we discuss changes here; then we implement them. After all, I am the main editor of this article, whether you like it or not. I'm happy Akhilleus and Aldux are contributing to this discussion and have commented on your unfortunate intervention. I'm also thinking about asking Robth to have a look at the article. I'll do whatever it takes for protecting the article's quality from your ioffensive. Unfortunately, what stinks is your attitude; not the article. Cheers!--
Yannismarou
07:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)There would seen to be a couple of statements that need sources:
she may have influenced Pericles and Athenian politics
She is believed to have become the courtesan of Lysicles
Tony 19:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Tony
She is believed to have become the courtesan of Lysicles,
According to Aeschines Socraticus, Lysicles married Aspasia after Pericles's death.
Yannis, Aldux, and ffm have insisted I discuss any changes I should like to make here before making them, and Aldux has threatened to use his admin power to block me from editing the article. Yet none of them has addressed any of the issues I've raised. Let's stick to the simplest issue. The first statement in the main body needs a citation. I think you can all see that. You've insisted that I clear all my changes by Yannis, the "main editor," and you've claimed that you can prevent me from making these changes unless Yannis approves them. You've all insisted that I discuss any changes here. Yet you have not engaged in the discussion I began yesterday on this topic. That statement needs a citation. I made a citation, and ffm reverted it immediately, without discussion. If you are not willing to discuss anything, how can you insist I "discuss changes" here? With whom shall I discuss them? Akhilleus is the only one who is discussing anything. You can't insist I "discuss" something, and then remain mute, simply reverting and making no attempt at discussion, and threatening to use admin power to win an edit war. Ocanter 14:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Looking back over the above discussion, I realize that my initial language, though blunt, was nowhere near as combative as that of Yannismarou. I also see that my initial violation of 3RR was not as severe or as early as Yannismarou's. I also see that although I posted my ideas for discussion every time before I made any edits, Aldux simply reverted without discussion, and in fact he has yet to comment on any of the content at all, except to threaten to ban me in the change logs. ffm has also not said anything about the actual content. Akhilleus' advice is generally good, and I am trying to follow it, but I cannot see that I should have to discuss it for 48 hours and obtain Yannis' permission before adding a citation to an unsourced fact.
I also see that if you look at the change logs, there was some real progress made during the time Yannis and I were working on the article, whereas progress halted as soon as Aldux threatened to ban me. In fact, the new lead, which I think everyone can see is more concise and more neutral, is due not only to my attempts at obtaining a NPOV, but also to Yannis' attempts at making it more neutral still. I believe that is how wikipedia is supposed to work.
I do not see that Aldux is helping anything by reverting my work without comment and threatening to block me. If he will step out of the way, I think progress can continue. I think Yannis' edits of my edits were generally better and more neutral than what we started with. That is the only way progress is going to happen here. I am not getting any discussion out of you guys on the content. I cannot wait 48 hours for you guys to reach "concensus" on whether we should add a citation to an unsourced claim. WP guidelines require a citation. I don't need Yannis' permission to add one.
I do not say this to start another conflict but to avoid one: tomorrow I will begin again, making careful, precise edits, introducing the material I have already attempted to discuss here on the talk page. If I do not get any discussion on the content issues I raised (48 hours ago), I am going to begin work again by introducing the necessary citations for Aspasia's birthplace, under "Origin." If I am unable to add a necessary citation for an unsourced fact, I will have to seek help through mediation.
Respectfully, Ocanter 22:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking of putting links from the Citations to the primary and secondary sources, as at Che Guevara and as described/discussed here. Comments? ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 20:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure I understand this statement:
"Aspasia would have to have been quite young, if she were able to bear a child to Lysicles c. 428 BC."
If Aspasia is born c. 470, she is 42 in 428 B.C. Cdg1072 ( talk) 17:25, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
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