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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
The following text was refactored from the main Talk page on 02:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
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Now listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, law, and sex. -- Wzhao553 05:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The entire previous talk page has been archived. Since this talk page was getting both long and ridiculous, it is obviously in the benefit of all parties involved to start from scratch. What I wanted to do now was to do a AfD style voting system for both the Physical anthropology section and the Testosterone section. If you don't know how this works, please see the archive for the AfD for Asian fetish located here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Asian_fetish. Since the article will likely not be unlocked until this dispute is settled, I think the only way to handle this situation is democratically.
Also, everyone should remember to be civil and stay on topic. Please stick to voting, and do not let the discussion go out of control. I also hope that those of us who know how this works can help out those who do not. -- Wzhao553 05:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
As I said, there is to be no more arguing over the sections, and definitely no more personal attacks. All the relevant points for all sides have already been made in the fifth archive. Please restrict your comments to straightforward voting. -- Wzhao553 04:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Note: The groundrules for this vote are set out in WP:Consensus and Current surveys. I've registered this as a poll on the latter page. Not all the rules for AfD apply to this sort of poll. For example, it doesn't have to be closed by an administrator but can be closed by the initiator ( Wzhao553). I propose that the closing date be one week from when this poll was started. Since it was initiated February 3 at 21:08, that would mean closing on February 10 at 21:08 {UTC). Sunray 18:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Several notes. First, it is unnecessary and counterproductive to point out what a voter's contributions have been or to conjecture what that voter may or may not be; anybody could arrive at such a conclusion anyway. Second, this is not an AfD for the article itself; if you believe that the article should be deleted, please read through the original AfD beforehand. Third, we'll continue to remove anything that either has been said before in an archive or does not directly relate to the material that is being discussed; simple comments about someone's vote are okay, but lengthy arguments over how a user voted is not okay. -- Wzhao553 00:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
*comment: Thank you very much for supporting us on the Asian racial / hormonal paedomorphosis.Please support us explicitly in the anthropology section, too, as it is logically connected because the positive selection for paedomorphosis in the Mongolids even led to the low testosterone, it is not its precondition.It is very important to keep the hormone section, tooAs the initiator of the whole process here now ,I will give further references when the anthropology section is accepted after this poll. 80.138.190.9 01:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC) 80.138.190.9 01:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
*I am not Mr. Phil I am not Mr Phil. That Mr Phil and I have an "entente cordiale" concerning our Weltanschauung does not change this fact.Your only hypothesis is that there cannot be two anti-Boasians in one German region.Any good detective would assume in contrast that the wikipedia in general is one hotspot of serious critics on numerous subjects.First, we are not in the same region, and second there are thousands of "stealth scientists" in Germany sharing our views while not publicly announcing them due to the suppression of free thought.My campaign will never stop, all of my scientific contributions are first class independent from your acknowledging them. The brazen ignorance of my vote or the brazen deletion of the section on "Asian fetish"will further escalate the conflict.Numerous others also without my group support me due to the quality and usefulness of my contributions (e.g. my introducing the biggest critical work ever on Einsteinian relativity to the web within a global player like Wikipedia).It will be a very hard task for you to suppress free speech from now on.Either this article will be without bias, or it will be deleted and blocked completely as "virago" after my introducing serious anthropology.And this will go on endlessly this way. 80.138.190.9 20:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This section was moved to
Talk:Asian fetish/Archive 5 by
Wzhao553 --
Gnetwerker
01:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
To me, the main problem with this article is that it lacks a proper foundation. The question should not, at bottom, be whether something is good or bad, or whether one writer likes it and another writer does not. An objective article should endeavor to explain what is really going on.
John Money has an interesting and useful concept that applies here. It is a concept based on research into sexual preferences. One view of sexual preferences is that all men are attracted to all women. Some men assert that they are, indeed, sexually attracted to all women. Even in those cases, I think that most people who make that claim would also claim to have a discriminating sense of the relative desirability of various possible sexual objects. Money explores the kinds of discriminations that humans make in their choice of sexual objects, from the ordinary and expected range of likely choices to the extreme range of odd choices that are called paraphilias. He maintains that the formation of an individual's love map is a highly contingent process. In the unproblematical cases an individual learns to evaluate potential mates on the basis of factors that can be objectively tied to future reproductive success and accompanying social success. As they mature, humans learn to determine who among their cohorts behave in ways that promote both their own success and the success of other, and also determine who among their cohorts are likely to get themselves and/or others into trouble. They then presumably ought to tend to pick mates with whom they will be compatible and with whom the rest of the community will be compatible. But sometimes the normal course of development is wrenched violently from its normal course by some (usually singular) event, and the individual learns to be highly attracted by certain unsual sexual objects. One of Money's most interesting examples is the case of a man he describes as suffering from "formicophilia." To make a long story short, a young man was violently interrupted by his father's hickory stick while having his first intercourse in a situation in which insects happened to be crawling over his body. He had been oblivious to the insects while involved with the young lady, but ever after he could only achieve sexual arousal if he allowed many insects to crawl over him.
Nothing so dramatic as a thrashing being administered during the time of initial orgasm to establish a life-long preference for a kind of lover that people whose lives had taken other turns might consider odd. The main thing that appears to be involved is what something means to the individual. What has one learned to expect when one meets a person exhibiting certain characteristics? If a white face means yet another member of a group that has systematically sought to trample one down, a member of the opposite sex belonging to that group may not be the obvious first choice as a potential sexual partner. If a member of a group that is "alien" and therefore not associated with prior abuse, or a member of a group that is friendly and openly accepting of one's sexual nature, comes on the scene at a time when one is sexually needy, that could conceivably be enough to establish an initial lowering of the mating threshold. Success in intercouse after a perhaps lifelong period of lack of any social success would surely be an enormous positive reinforcement, a clear path to learning that the "alien" sexual parter was a desirable one.
I am not suggesting that the article be written on the basis of my memories of Money's books (and one on love maps in particular), but that sources of information on what makes one person sexually/romantically/erotically attractive to another be researched and that they provide the foundation for the article. 金 (Kim) 06:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC) (金)
I made this admittedly arbitrary decision because we already decided (see Archive 4) that the article will only take a sociological (specifically postcolonialist) viewpoint, and would not discuss any psychological literature. The reason given was that the term "Asian fetish" is only used in sociological terms in published literature, and not in psychological terms, hence making any discussion of psychological literature inherently original research. -- Wzhao553 19:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
One of the apparent problems here is that there seem to be not only one, but two warring POV factions on this page. I have no vested interest (or special knowledge) of this subject, but I took a stab at a page that I humbly believe has less POV, NOR, and other problems. Here it is: Asian fetish/rewrite. See what you think. -- Gnetwerker 06:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If we're going for an NPOV article that makes absolutely no sense, then this will do. Apparently people don't realize that taking out sections that other sections depend upon makes the entire article fall apart. -- Wzhao553 07:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'm going to assume that you're trying your best, but the problems start at the very beginning:
I dispute this definition. If Asian fetish were an "unusual or extreme" sexual attraction, then it would be considered deviant behavior, which it is not. On the other hand, you might think that removing the phrase is sufficient, but then Asian fetish is not just any sexual attraction. At any rate, if it were that easy to define Asian fetish correctly, then we wouldn't be having lengthy debates on the rest of the article. My personal viewpoint is that it is pointless to write an article on a term that is not defined correctly at the very beginning. -- Wzhao553 08:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
My best and honest recommendation to you is that you read this article before thinking about Asian fetish per se any further. As the author explains, the term fetish can be used in three different contexts. This problem extends to Asian fetish, which is an odd conflation of all three contexts into one term that I personally have yet to fully understand. When I do understand the interplay between the three, then I will put it into the article, but until then I am hesitant to do so. -- Wzhao553 08:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it is interesting to note that in all the talk pages, not one contributor has been an Asian woman -- the target of Asian fetishism. A bunch of men are arguing over it and leaving out the voices of the actual alleged victims, despite there being plenty of available articles written by them. [6] [7] [8] And I think this guy sums up the most common presentation of the theory. [9] All of this physical anthropology stuff is interesting but since it never appears in literature about Asian fetish I don't see any justification for including it other than exhaustive comprehensiveness, which isn't a goal of Wikipedia.-- ThreeAnswers 08:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If you'd like something a general reader can digest, try David Henry Hwang's introduction to his play, M. Butterfly. It's somewhat intertextual with Puccini. The comparison is spot-on for this article. Edward Said might fit into the discussion also, but somewhat less directly. Durova 08:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Let me suggest alternatively that Wikipedia cannot (and should not) "assume the reader has mastered (insert your text here)". WP is not a philosophical monograph, it is an encyclopedia. I consider myself to be a (better than average) educated individual/generalist, and these arguments are at the edge of my ability, and very far past my interest. WP should not be cutting-edge philosophical research, but basic and widespread knowledge. Thus I suggest we find a simpler paradigm to explain. This is not meant to diminish the value or validity of the underlying research and theory -- just to constrain the domain for the generalist. Perhaps we need a Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia is not a post-graduate seminar. -- Gnetwerker 08:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
While rewriting the page, I was shocked at how much latent POV is in there. I don't mean facts -- I am not qualified to judge their per se accuracy. The article is laden with phrases like "huge disparity" (vs. simply "disparity"), "activists allege", U.S. media "constantly portrayed" (vs. "portrayed"), a danger to "innocent white women" (vs. guilty ones?), "critics contend", "the irony is" (in an encyclopedia article!), "today the biggest critics ... are generally Asians", while "others adopt a more egalitarian view". It is astonishing, and this is leaving out the giant sections identified above (anthropolicy, sex crimes, etc) which appear to be someone's POV, but certainly NOR.
A bigger problem is that virtually none of the bald-faced statements in the article have real citations. "The Joy Luck Club ... is strongly disliked by many Asian organizations" Is this actually true? If so, there should be a citation. "asian fetish is suggested as an explanation for the (census) disparity" -- by whom? You would think that, in the course of gathering 5 full archive pages of talk, there would have been some actual citations stuck in there.
I don't want to get in between the warring factions here (probably too late), but if the page must exist, it needs to be a short, succinct page of widely-agreed upon facts, with the incipient social research carried on somewhere else. -- Gnetwerker 08:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Ugur Basak censored my free speech only citing here a leftist pamphlet against the Asiaphiles. 80.138.193.152 12:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I dont censore anything, that is the link you have blanked a part of the page, may be you did it mistakely http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3AAsian_fetish&diff=39060975&oldid=39043980
As you can see from 2 differences, you've vandalized the page by removing others comment.-- Ugur Basak 12:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If my comment is censored again , it will enhance the conflict furthermore. The article on "virago"will be re-established as soon as possible as it is necessary to inform people about the racially very masculine Western women compared to the Mongolids (e.g. Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual).80.138.193.152 22:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC) The universal history of the virago comes back to you.From the Babylonians to the Jewish trash comic industry and its virago icon "Wonderwoman", "the subconscious, elaborately disguised desire of (gayish ;addition by author) males to be mastered by a woman who loves them". As 20th century's leftism and feminism have essentially Jewish key players (cf. Kevin MacDonald and www.jwa.org), of course the Osteuropid "Wonderwoman" fighting against the evil Nazis (Remake 2007 (!)) is effective,too, in weakenening male European society. As a curiosity , the Christian legend of the collaboration between the "Red Jews" and the "amazons" has foreseen this unholy collaboration of a hostile elite and Europid manlike viragos.God bless them.80.138.193.152 22:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If you call someone who sees massive evidence in the literature for the inequality of the races on average , then I am a racist. How to deny Baker , MacDonald , Harpending , Rushton , Martin-Saller -Knußmann evidence ? The world is deep to the core a world of materialistic phenomena. Man is an animal biologically. Why not apply science with the highests possible rigour to him? Was v. Eickstedt big optimism concerning psychometry overexaggerated ? And why not criticize the asocial behaviour of a tiny minority within a minority ? What I wrote was descriptive. And If-Then possibilities. If the West wants to survive , then it should do this and that according to scienctific evidence.It is hard for you to believe,but I am not anti-Semitic. I am not interested in Nordic racial preservation.The influx of feminine elements is the best thing what could happen. Neo-Nazi Kevin B. MacDonald's funny Nordic virago preservation is shit and 100% impossible. In 2100, the yellow race will dominate the world I am happy with that very much as you certainly can imagine by now. I praise the day when 60% of the American population is Asian , 30% Black and 10% White. Come in, Africans, come in ,Asians, and make the viragos die out . I wish for that no virago exists any more by the peaceful lack of reproduction of them which is 100% sure.And if gene technology creates them again, I will create real females in the laboratory, two keels for one. 80.138.142.102 03:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Result of Vote -- The Virago page envisioned by the poster above has been deleted, and is prevented from re-creation. This position has been rejected from Wikipedia. I would suggest that discussion of it take place elsewhere. -- Gnetwerker 09:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Voting for the two disputed sections has closed. There seems to be an overwhelming majority of users who want the Testosterone section closed. So that passes. As for the physical anthropology section, it looks like (ignoring strength) 8 votes for keep and 11 for delete. However, two of those votes are by users who cannot be considered regular users. If we discount those two votes ( User:Heaven's Knight and User:Lycheng) then it looks like we have a clear majority for delete.
Given that I wrote the physical anthropology section and given that I do know who the two voters are outside of Wikipedia, I will pass the final decision on the section to User:Pathoschild, since he is an impartial administrator, as that would be in the best interest of all parties. -- Wzhao553 04:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The results of the vote are clear. In both cases a Supermajority of editors have indicated a preference for deletion of these sections. Referring to WP:Consensus, such a vote is not taken as an absolute. However, "Surveys and the Request for comment process are designed to assist consensus-building when normal talk page communication fails." Usually on talk pages a two thirds majority is considered decisive in determining the content of an article. Sunray 17:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
The entire article is based on a string ignorant racist stereotypes presented without being logically examined. The article is the work of people working hard, but barely managing to conceal their own ignorance, jealousy and hatred. An article as baseless in fact, and as obviously purely opinion-based as this one has no place in a site pretending to be any sort of serious encyclopedia.
If Wikipedia allows this garbage to stand, neo-Nazis should be allowed to post articles on how Jews destroy societies, and how to identify them through skull-measurement; Japanese right-wingers should be allowed to post justification for the actions of their military during the '30s and '40s, flat-earthers should be allowed to present their view as a valid opinion. All of this idiocy can be "supported" by "evidence" written by quacks with as much authority in their fields as the ones cited in this article.
WIKIPEDIA-- DELETE THIS ENTIRE SACK OF GARBAGE IF YOU WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AT ALL
67.92.214.246 02:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC) A Disgusted Wikipedian
As you are obviously prone to aggression (see wikipedia anti-aggression principles), you are obviously prone to any aggressive ideology if it serves your interests.You are obviously a sock puppet of model minority,too, as you are a new user.For you , the world is black-white : the bad Japanese , the bad Nazis and the good Jews.Many users appreciate the anthropology section which I initiated and which was first class on the net after my giving the refereces.Do you think that the writers of it are garbage humans , too ? Your aggression only shows your total helplessness towards real science by world authorities. Here is the old version for you to rethink it, there is nothing prescriptive or offensice in it:
(Text snipped by Will Beback 22:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)) 80.138.166.174 17:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This article presents biased, racist opinions, and then pretends to "balance" them by presenting opposing views. The purpose is to thereby lend credence to the patently absurd, racist opinions stated in the first place, as if both sides of the issue were equally valid.
"Some people hold that blacks are genetically inferior to whites. [carefully cite crackpot sources here]. Other people, however disagree. [token citations of sources who wasted their time responding to racist garbage here]..."
Yeah, yeah, now purposely miss my point, and pretend I'm saying ALL blacks are good, and ALL whites are bad, while YOU are presenting the opinion that ALL Asians are child-like (couching it in the intellectual-sounding term "paedomorphosis"), and that people attracted to them are pedophiles.
This kind of intellectually dishonest clown act does not belong in an encyclopedia. This kind of pseudo-intellectual, patently absurd garbage is more suitable to a heavily-trolled Yahoo message board than in anything purporting to be a valid encyclopedia.
I know how pointless it is to argue with racists such as yourself, so I'm not going to waste any more of MY time with this piece of trash article. But I'll continue to call garbage GARBAGE when I see it.
WIKIPEDIA-- DELETE THIS ENTIRE SACK OF GARBAGE IF YOU WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AT ALL
Wzho533, could you please judge now as you have the right to do so. Thank you very much in advance.
80.138.166.174
17:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This was our very good version, please let us write another section about the criticism (Prasso). 80.138.166.174 17:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
80.138.166.174 22:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the section as discussed above, in line with consensus; I've also softened the level of protection to semi, in the hope that more normal editing can continue. I must say that this article needs a thorough clean-up at the least. If it were up for AfD I'd probably vote against at the moment. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 18:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I will revert Mel Etitis deletion of the anthro-sec because of the following, agreeing to Sunray's previous comment on wiki standards:User Mel Etitis's deletion of the anthropology section did not respect that there was no 2/3 majority for deletion (in neither of the two proposed ways of counting the votes ):surveys and the Request for comment process are designed to assist consensus-building when normal talk page communication fails." Usually on talk pages a two thirds majority is considered decisive in determining the content of an article. 80.138.194.229 23:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a democracy. Consensus of real distinct users was clear. Also, we all have the rights to delete that section, not just Wzhao533, since all content here is under the GFDL. Infinity0 talk 00:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
And I have the right to add it again. You have to respect the will of 40% of the people.This is a fact, anything else are your assumptions. 80.138.194.83 22:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
And you have to prove that you are not part of the manipulation described in Kevin B. MacDonald's "Culture of Critique".40% is nearly a supermajority and should be respected. 80.138.168.39 11:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC) 80.138.168.39 11:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
As there are US legal supermajorities of 55% and 60% not too funny, hm ? 80.138.168.39 00:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
{{ cleanup}} and {{ NPOV}} are enough; adding {{ weasel}} etc. only over-eggs the pudding. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Censoring will fail and the power of the censors. 80.138.193.77 02:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
80.138.168.55 17:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Tell me again how you think "Jews are controlling Wikipedia"? Your silence on that topic is.....deafening. OneViewHere 20:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Read in the archives of this page my views on Judaism and the Negrids, I will not repeat them again, but I know , you like it so much to hear it again live.- You don't respect the will of 40% of the voters ,this could be labeled a dictatorship as the wikipedia should be open to all views if they are scientifically well-grounded.And their is no higher authority than the Matin-Saller-Knußmann manual settin ght eworld standard since 1914 (4th rev. ed. 1996). Furthermore you spread anti-multicultural propaganda.If there would be no Prasso hate campaign, then one could say, okay, the leftists nonsense does not do any short-term harm , but here a major group of at least ten million people worldwide is attacked due to all too obvious reasons for nothing.On some web threads , you can read about young Eurasian women who are suffering obviously from this leftist-inspired discrimination against them as pervert Caucasians' bastards .Now you will answer of course , MacDonald attacks the Jews,too,but no ,he doesn't , he only states scientifically that some Jews had a major negative impact on the West which is obviously essential in its failure.The virago Prasso and hundreds of millions of other viragos have an envy and hatred of the Europid universal civilization and its achievements. However, viragos have not directly contributed essentially to civilization , but have been idealized in the Jewish controlled media (Wonderwoman remake 2007).And in addition to Kevin B. MacDonald's essentially right conclusions, Jewesses were essential in the success of the second and third wave feminists.And it is a scandal that Steve Rubenstein denies the existence of the anthropological concept of the virago and the existence of several hundred millions of viragines worldwide abusing his academic position. Simply put , one cannot understand womanhood without the notion of the anthropological virago and its racial implications, neither Goddess Kali, Mother Mary , queen Neithhotep nor Abu Graibh's torture Harman.At the moment , I'm calculating how many American and Vietnamese lives could have been saved if the will of the Vietnamese people had not been underestimated by Boasian war anthropologists.Furthermore,it is estimated that 20% of all sexual abuses are committed by viragines,e.g.But as the judges see them as "women", they often -enough get mild sentences.Or look at the porn industry: 95% virago actresses.Viragos often-enough act as aggressive she-wolves, yes "she-wolves " without any compassion for anything.Harman's and Lynndie England's pics show this reality of the Nordic virago which is the uncrowned "queen" of viragodom.Of course , of course , the Boasians will show that Lynndie England has been a product of Texas's special acceptance of violence being one of the five cultural sectors in the US according to Geoffrey Gorer's "Americans".Or, let's say, google the women delinquents' pics on the net in different US counties. All viragos.You leftists are a deadly threat to the West in my opinion which will be clearly seen one day in retrospect as t h e biggest destruction in human history.Then hundred millions of people will begin to think about the MacDonald stuff and how it could be possible that such a fantastic flourishing civilization of Beethoven , Mozart ,Goethe and Aristotle could be destroyed by a minority. 80.138.168.55 23:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Now wash your thinking. 80.138.128.87 13:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
You really think that the billionaires, politicis, states ,armies, races are benign to one another ? You don't think you are naive ("the 2003 textbooks say there are no races" etc. etc. ) ? As long as you not accept the truth , you can be compared to children thinking the elders will care for them , but they do not.The media are so free and not controlled by minorities! Hahaha. The world is ruled by pseudo-intelligent,feminine, choleric-sanguine,sick and egotistic people not fit for any deeper scientific and ethic reasoning totally brain-washed by their own propaganda. The leaders of the West e.g. will be made responsible for their weakness and stupidity not stopping the West's death struggle.There is no free speech in Europe, the old concepts as the virago concept and the Hartmann laws are ridiculed by androgynous leftists worldwide.But you can take for granted that maybe the patient "The West" dies, but some of its leftist malign "doctors" will perish, too.You are and stay herd people mainly maladapted to your natural interests , this is your providence according to the Laplace laws.For infinity0 , one could suggest that instead of tuning in the leftist song it would be better if he would enter Chinese politics and appreciate the strenght of sinocentrism instead of multiculturalism which does not serve his interests. For Mr. Rubenstein , one could suggest that the Boasian manipulations should be a bit more sophisticated not denying the existence of the virago concept itself.Whenever someone like me would establish in Harvard or Athens, it would be difficult for him to maintain these lies about biology. Rushton, MacDonald and Harpending are only the vanguard, others will follow, greater thinkers. Whenever an elite gets parasitic (and not all eltites were parasitic) , the suppressed and exploited majority and its leaders will overthrow the system surely. The coming 50 years of Zbigniew Brezinzky's "technotronic" suppression will not alter this fate, either. 80.138.128.87 00:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
The following text was refactored from the main Talk page on 02:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}} ; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
canvassed|username}} ; accounts blocked for
sockpuppetry: {{subst:
csm|username}} or {{subst:
csp|username}} . |
Now listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, law, and sex. -- Wzhao553 05:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The entire previous talk page has been archived. Since this talk page was getting both long and ridiculous, it is obviously in the benefit of all parties involved to start from scratch. What I wanted to do now was to do a AfD style voting system for both the Physical anthropology section and the Testosterone section. If you don't know how this works, please see the archive for the AfD for Asian fetish located here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Asian_fetish. Since the article will likely not be unlocked until this dispute is settled, I think the only way to handle this situation is democratically.
Also, everyone should remember to be civil and stay on topic. Please stick to voting, and do not let the discussion go out of control. I also hope that those of us who know how this works can help out those who do not. -- Wzhao553 05:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
As I said, there is to be no more arguing over the sections, and definitely no more personal attacks. All the relevant points for all sides have already been made in the fifth archive. Please restrict your comments to straightforward voting. -- Wzhao553 04:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Note: The groundrules for this vote are set out in WP:Consensus and Current surveys. I've registered this as a poll on the latter page. Not all the rules for AfD apply to this sort of poll. For example, it doesn't have to be closed by an administrator but can be closed by the initiator ( Wzhao553). I propose that the closing date be one week from when this poll was started. Since it was initiated February 3 at 21:08, that would mean closing on February 10 at 21:08 {UTC). Sunray 18:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Several notes. First, it is unnecessary and counterproductive to point out what a voter's contributions have been or to conjecture what that voter may or may not be; anybody could arrive at such a conclusion anyway. Second, this is not an AfD for the article itself; if you believe that the article should be deleted, please read through the original AfD beforehand. Third, we'll continue to remove anything that either has been said before in an archive or does not directly relate to the material that is being discussed; simple comments about someone's vote are okay, but lengthy arguments over how a user voted is not okay. -- Wzhao553 00:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
*comment: Thank you very much for supporting us on the Asian racial / hormonal paedomorphosis.Please support us explicitly in the anthropology section, too, as it is logically connected because the positive selection for paedomorphosis in the Mongolids even led to the low testosterone, it is not its precondition.It is very important to keep the hormone section, tooAs the initiator of the whole process here now ,I will give further references when the anthropology section is accepted after this poll. 80.138.190.9 01:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC) 80.138.190.9 01:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
*I am not Mr. Phil I am not Mr Phil. That Mr Phil and I have an "entente cordiale" concerning our Weltanschauung does not change this fact.Your only hypothesis is that there cannot be two anti-Boasians in one German region.Any good detective would assume in contrast that the wikipedia in general is one hotspot of serious critics on numerous subjects.First, we are not in the same region, and second there are thousands of "stealth scientists" in Germany sharing our views while not publicly announcing them due to the suppression of free thought.My campaign will never stop, all of my scientific contributions are first class independent from your acknowledging them. The brazen ignorance of my vote or the brazen deletion of the section on "Asian fetish"will further escalate the conflict.Numerous others also without my group support me due to the quality and usefulness of my contributions (e.g. my introducing the biggest critical work ever on Einsteinian relativity to the web within a global player like Wikipedia).It will be a very hard task for you to suppress free speech from now on.Either this article will be without bias, or it will be deleted and blocked completely as "virago" after my introducing serious anthropology.And this will go on endlessly this way. 80.138.190.9 20:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This section was moved to
Talk:Asian fetish/Archive 5 by
Wzhao553 --
Gnetwerker
01:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
To me, the main problem with this article is that it lacks a proper foundation. The question should not, at bottom, be whether something is good or bad, or whether one writer likes it and another writer does not. An objective article should endeavor to explain what is really going on.
John Money has an interesting and useful concept that applies here. It is a concept based on research into sexual preferences. One view of sexual preferences is that all men are attracted to all women. Some men assert that they are, indeed, sexually attracted to all women. Even in those cases, I think that most people who make that claim would also claim to have a discriminating sense of the relative desirability of various possible sexual objects. Money explores the kinds of discriminations that humans make in their choice of sexual objects, from the ordinary and expected range of likely choices to the extreme range of odd choices that are called paraphilias. He maintains that the formation of an individual's love map is a highly contingent process. In the unproblematical cases an individual learns to evaluate potential mates on the basis of factors that can be objectively tied to future reproductive success and accompanying social success. As they mature, humans learn to determine who among their cohorts behave in ways that promote both their own success and the success of other, and also determine who among their cohorts are likely to get themselves and/or others into trouble. They then presumably ought to tend to pick mates with whom they will be compatible and with whom the rest of the community will be compatible. But sometimes the normal course of development is wrenched violently from its normal course by some (usually singular) event, and the individual learns to be highly attracted by certain unsual sexual objects. One of Money's most interesting examples is the case of a man he describes as suffering from "formicophilia." To make a long story short, a young man was violently interrupted by his father's hickory stick while having his first intercourse in a situation in which insects happened to be crawling over his body. He had been oblivious to the insects while involved with the young lady, but ever after he could only achieve sexual arousal if he allowed many insects to crawl over him.
Nothing so dramatic as a thrashing being administered during the time of initial orgasm to establish a life-long preference for a kind of lover that people whose lives had taken other turns might consider odd. The main thing that appears to be involved is what something means to the individual. What has one learned to expect when one meets a person exhibiting certain characteristics? If a white face means yet another member of a group that has systematically sought to trample one down, a member of the opposite sex belonging to that group may not be the obvious first choice as a potential sexual partner. If a member of a group that is "alien" and therefore not associated with prior abuse, or a member of a group that is friendly and openly accepting of one's sexual nature, comes on the scene at a time when one is sexually needy, that could conceivably be enough to establish an initial lowering of the mating threshold. Success in intercouse after a perhaps lifelong period of lack of any social success would surely be an enormous positive reinforcement, a clear path to learning that the "alien" sexual parter was a desirable one.
I am not suggesting that the article be written on the basis of my memories of Money's books (and one on love maps in particular), but that sources of information on what makes one person sexually/romantically/erotically attractive to another be researched and that they provide the foundation for the article. 金 (Kim) 06:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC) (金)
I made this admittedly arbitrary decision because we already decided (see Archive 4) that the article will only take a sociological (specifically postcolonialist) viewpoint, and would not discuss any psychological literature. The reason given was that the term "Asian fetish" is only used in sociological terms in published literature, and not in psychological terms, hence making any discussion of psychological literature inherently original research. -- Wzhao553 19:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
One of the apparent problems here is that there seem to be not only one, but two warring POV factions on this page. I have no vested interest (or special knowledge) of this subject, but I took a stab at a page that I humbly believe has less POV, NOR, and other problems. Here it is: Asian fetish/rewrite. See what you think. -- Gnetwerker 06:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If we're going for an NPOV article that makes absolutely no sense, then this will do. Apparently people don't realize that taking out sections that other sections depend upon makes the entire article fall apart. -- Wzhao553 07:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'm going to assume that you're trying your best, but the problems start at the very beginning:
I dispute this definition. If Asian fetish were an "unusual or extreme" sexual attraction, then it would be considered deviant behavior, which it is not. On the other hand, you might think that removing the phrase is sufficient, but then Asian fetish is not just any sexual attraction. At any rate, if it were that easy to define Asian fetish correctly, then we wouldn't be having lengthy debates on the rest of the article. My personal viewpoint is that it is pointless to write an article on a term that is not defined correctly at the very beginning. -- Wzhao553 08:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
My best and honest recommendation to you is that you read this article before thinking about Asian fetish per se any further. As the author explains, the term fetish can be used in three different contexts. This problem extends to Asian fetish, which is an odd conflation of all three contexts into one term that I personally have yet to fully understand. When I do understand the interplay between the three, then I will put it into the article, but until then I am hesitant to do so. -- Wzhao553 08:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it is interesting to note that in all the talk pages, not one contributor has been an Asian woman -- the target of Asian fetishism. A bunch of men are arguing over it and leaving out the voices of the actual alleged victims, despite there being plenty of available articles written by them. [6] [7] [8] And I think this guy sums up the most common presentation of the theory. [9] All of this physical anthropology stuff is interesting but since it never appears in literature about Asian fetish I don't see any justification for including it other than exhaustive comprehensiveness, which isn't a goal of Wikipedia.-- ThreeAnswers 08:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If you'd like something a general reader can digest, try David Henry Hwang's introduction to his play, M. Butterfly. It's somewhat intertextual with Puccini. The comparison is spot-on for this article. Edward Said might fit into the discussion also, but somewhat less directly. Durova 08:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Let me suggest alternatively that Wikipedia cannot (and should not) "assume the reader has mastered (insert your text here)". WP is not a philosophical monograph, it is an encyclopedia. I consider myself to be a (better than average) educated individual/generalist, and these arguments are at the edge of my ability, and very far past my interest. WP should not be cutting-edge philosophical research, but basic and widespread knowledge. Thus I suggest we find a simpler paradigm to explain. This is not meant to diminish the value or validity of the underlying research and theory -- just to constrain the domain for the generalist. Perhaps we need a Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia is not a post-graduate seminar. -- Gnetwerker 08:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
While rewriting the page, I was shocked at how much latent POV is in there. I don't mean facts -- I am not qualified to judge their per se accuracy. The article is laden with phrases like "huge disparity" (vs. simply "disparity"), "activists allege", U.S. media "constantly portrayed" (vs. "portrayed"), a danger to "innocent white women" (vs. guilty ones?), "critics contend", "the irony is" (in an encyclopedia article!), "today the biggest critics ... are generally Asians", while "others adopt a more egalitarian view". It is astonishing, and this is leaving out the giant sections identified above (anthropolicy, sex crimes, etc) which appear to be someone's POV, but certainly NOR.
A bigger problem is that virtually none of the bald-faced statements in the article have real citations. "The Joy Luck Club ... is strongly disliked by many Asian organizations" Is this actually true? If so, there should be a citation. "asian fetish is suggested as an explanation for the (census) disparity" -- by whom? You would think that, in the course of gathering 5 full archive pages of talk, there would have been some actual citations stuck in there.
I don't want to get in between the warring factions here (probably too late), but if the page must exist, it needs to be a short, succinct page of widely-agreed upon facts, with the incipient social research carried on somewhere else. -- Gnetwerker 08:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Ugur Basak censored my free speech only citing here a leftist pamphlet against the Asiaphiles. 80.138.193.152 12:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I dont censore anything, that is the link you have blanked a part of the page, may be you did it mistakely http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3AAsian_fetish&diff=39060975&oldid=39043980
As you can see from 2 differences, you've vandalized the page by removing others comment.-- Ugur Basak 12:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If my comment is censored again , it will enhance the conflict furthermore. The article on "virago"will be re-established as soon as possible as it is necessary to inform people about the racially very masculine Western women compared to the Mongolids (e.g. Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual).80.138.193.152 22:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC) The universal history of the virago comes back to you.From the Babylonians to the Jewish trash comic industry and its virago icon "Wonderwoman", "the subconscious, elaborately disguised desire of (gayish ;addition by author) males to be mastered by a woman who loves them". As 20th century's leftism and feminism have essentially Jewish key players (cf. Kevin MacDonald and www.jwa.org), of course the Osteuropid "Wonderwoman" fighting against the evil Nazis (Remake 2007 (!)) is effective,too, in weakenening male European society. As a curiosity , the Christian legend of the collaboration between the "Red Jews" and the "amazons" has foreseen this unholy collaboration of a hostile elite and Europid manlike viragos.God bless them.80.138.193.152 22:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If you call someone who sees massive evidence in the literature for the inequality of the races on average , then I am a racist. How to deny Baker , MacDonald , Harpending , Rushton , Martin-Saller -Knußmann evidence ? The world is deep to the core a world of materialistic phenomena. Man is an animal biologically. Why not apply science with the highests possible rigour to him? Was v. Eickstedt big optimism concerning psychometry overexaggerated ? And why not criticize the asocial behaviour of a tiny minority within a minority ? What I wrote was descriptive. And If-Then possibilities. If the West wants to survive , then it should do this and that according to scienctific evidence.It is hard for you to believe,but I am not anti-Semitic. I am not interested in Nordic racial preservation.The influx of feminine elements is the best thing what could happen. Neo-Nazi Kevin B. MacDonald's funny Nordic virago preservation is shit and 100% impossible. In 2100, the yellow race will dominate the world I am happy with that very much as you certainly can imagine by now. I praise the day when 60% of the American population is Asian , 30% Black and 10% White. Come in, Africans, come in ,Asians, and make the viragos die out . I wish for that no virago exists any more by the peaceful lack of reproduction of them which is 100% sure.And if gene technology creates them again, I will create real females in the laboratory, two keels for one. 80.138.142.102 03:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Result of Vote -- The Virago page envisioned by the poster above has been deleted, and is prevented from re-creation. This position has been rejected from Wikipedia. I would suggest that discussion of it take place elsewhere. -- Gnetwerker 09:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Voting for the two disputed sections has closed. There seems to be an overwhelming majority of users who want the Testosterone section closed. So that passes. As for the physical anthropology section, it looks like (ignoring strength) 8 votes for keep and 11 for delete. However, two of those votes are by users who cannot be considered regular users. If we discount those two votes ( User:Heaven's Knight and User:Lycheng) then it looks like we have a clear majority for delete.
Given that I wrote the physical anthropology section and given that I do know who the two voters are outside of Wikipedia, I will pass the final decision on the section to User:Pathoschild, since he is an impartial administrator, as that would be in the best interest of all parties. -- Wzhao553 04:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The results of the vote are clear. In both cases a Supermajority of editors have indicated a preference for deletion of these sections. Referring to WP:Consensus, such a vote is not taken as an absolute. However, "Surveys and the Request for comment process are designed to assist consensus-building when normal talk page communication fails." Usually on talk pages a two thirds majority is considered decisive in determining the content of an article. Sunray 17:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
The entire article is based on a string ignorant racist stereotypes presented without being logically examined. The article is the work of people working hard, but barely managing to conceal their own ignorance, jealousy and hatred. An article as baseless in fact, and as obviously purely opinion-based as this one has no place in a site pretending to be any sort of serious encyclopedia.
If Wikipedia allows this garbage to stand, neo-Nazis should be allowed to post articles on how Jews destroy societies, and how to identify them through skull-measurement; Japanese right-wingers should be allowed to post justification for the actions of their military during the '30s and '40s, flat-earthers should be allowed to present their view as a valid opinion. All of this idiocy can be "supported" by "evidence" written by quacks with as much authority in their fields as the ones cited in this article.
WIKIPEDIA-- DELETE THIS ENTIRE SACK OF GARBAGE IF YOU WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AT ALL
67.92.214.246 02:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC) A Disgusted Wikipedian
As you are obviously prone to aggression (see wikipedia anti-aggression principles), you are obviously prone to any aggressive ideology if it serves your interests.You are obviously a sock puppet of model minority,too, as you are a new user.For you , the world is black-white : the bad Japanese , the bad Nazis and the good Jews.Many users appreciate the anthropology section which I initiated and which was first class on the net after my giving the refereces.Do you think that the writers of it are garbage humans , too ? Your aggression only shows your total helplessness towards real science by world authorities. Here is the old version for you to rethink it, there is nothing prescriptive or offensice in it:
(Text snipped by Will Beback 22:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)) 80.138.166.174 17:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This article presents biased, racist opinions, and then pretends to "balance" them by presenting opposing views. The purpose is to thereby lend credence to the patently absurd, racist opinions stated in the first place, as if both sides of the issue were equally valid.
"Some people hold that blacks are genetically inferior to whites. [carefully cite crackpot sources here]. Other people, however disagree. [token citations of sources who wasted their time responding to racist garbage here]..."
Yeah, yeah, now purposely miss my point, and pretend I'm saying ALL blacks are good, and ALL whites are bad, while YOU are presenting the opinion that ALL Asians are child-like (couching it in the intellectual-sounding term "paedomorphosis"), and that people attracted to them are pedophiles.
This kind of intellectually dishonest clown act does not belong in an encyclopedia. This kind of pseudo-intellectual, patently absurd garbage is more suitable to a heavily-trolled Yahoo message board than in anything purporting to be a valid encyclopedia.
I know how pointless it is to argue with racists such as yourself, so I'm not going to waste any more of MY time with this piece of trash article. But I'll continue to call garbage GARBAGE when I see it.
WIKIPEDIA-- DELETE THIS ENTIRE SACK OF GARBAGE IF YOU WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AT ALL
Wzho533, could you please judge now as you have the right to do so. Thank you very much in advance.
80.138.166.174
17:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This was our very good version, please let us write another section about the criticism (Prasso). 80.138.166.174 17:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
80.138.166.174 22:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the section as discussed above, in line with consensus; I've also softened the level of protection to semi, in the hope that more normal editing can continue. I must say that this article needs a thorough clean-up at the least. If it were up for AfD I'd probably vote against at the moment. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 18:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I will revert Mel Etitis deletion of the anthro-sec because of the following, agreeing to Sunray's previous comment on wiki standards:User Mel Etitis's deletion of the anthropology section did not respect that there was no 2/3 majority for deletion (in neither of the two proposed ways of counting the votes ):surveys and the Request for comment process are designed to assist consensus-building when normal talk page communication fails." Usually on talk pages a two thirds majority is considered decisive in determining the content of an article. 80.138.194.229 23:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a democracy. Consensus of real distinct users was clear. Also, we all have the rights to delete that section, not just Wzhao533, since all content here is under the GFDL. Infinity0 talk 00:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
And I have the right to add it again. You have to respect the will of 40% of the people.This is a fact, anything else are your assumptions. 80.138.194.83 22:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
And you have to prove that you are not part of the manipulation described in Kevin B. MacDonald's "Culture of Critique".40% is nearly a supermajority and should be respected. 80.138.168.39 11:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC) 80.138.168.39 11:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
As there are US legal supermajorities of 55% and 60% not too funny, hm ? 80.138.168.39 00:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
{{ cleanup}} and {{ NPOV}} are enough; adding {{ weasel}} etc. only over-eggs the pudding. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Censoring will fail and the power of the censors. 80.138.193.77 02:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
80.138.168.55 17:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Tell me again how you think "Jews are controlling Wikipedia"? Your silence on that topic is.....deafening. OneViewHere 20:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Read in the archives of this page my views on Judaism and the Negrids, I will not repeat them again, but I know , you like it so much to hear it again live.- You don't respect the will of 40% of the voters ,this could be labeled a dictatorship as the wikipedia should be open to all views if they are scientifically well-grounded.And their is no higher authority than the Matin-Saller-Knußmann manual settin ght eworld standard since 1914 (4th rev. ed. 1996). Furthermore you spread anti-multicultural propaganda.If there would be no Prasso hate campaign, then one could say, okay, the leftists nonsense does not do any short-term harm , but here a major group of at least ten million people worldwide is attacked due to all too obvious reasons for nothing.On some web threads , you can read about young Eurasian women who are suffering obviously from this leftist-inspired discrimination against them as pervert Caucasians' bastards .Now you will answer of course , MacDonald attacks the Jews,too,but no ,he doesn't , he only states scientifically that some Jews had a major negative impact on the West which is obviously essential in its failure.The virago Prasso and hundreds of millions of other viragos have an envy and hatred of the Europid universal civilization and its achievements. However, viragos have not directly contributed essentially to civilization , but have been idealized in the Jewish controlled media (Wonderwoman remake 2007).And in addition to Kevin B. MacDonald's essentially right conclusions, Jewesses were essential in the success of the second and third wave feminists.And it is a scandal that Steve Rubenstein denies the existence of the anthropological concept of the virago and the existence of several hundred millions of viragines worldwide abusing his academic position. Simply put , one cannot understand womanhood without the notion of the anthropological virago and its racial implications, neither Goddess Kali, Mother Mary , queen Neithhotep nor Abu Graibh's torture Harman.At the moment , I'm calculating how many American and Vietnamese lives could have been saved if the will of the Vietnamese people had not been underestimated by Boasian war anthropologists.Furthermore,it is estimated that 20% of all sexual abuses are committed by viragines,e.g.But as the judges see them as "women", they often -enough get mild sentences.Or look at the porn industry: 95% virago actresses.Viragos often-enough act as aggressive she-wolves, yes "she-wolves " without any compassion for anything.Harman's and Lynndie England's pics show this reality of the Nordic virago which is the uncrowned "queen" of viragodom.Of course , of course , the Boasians will show that Lynndie England has been a product of Texas's special acceptance of violence being one of the five cultural sectors in the US according to Geoffrey Gorer's "Americans".Or, let's say, google the women delinquents' pics on the net in different US counties. All viragos.You leftists are a deadly threat to the West in my opinion which will be clearly seen one day in retrospect as t h e biggest destruction in human history.Then hundred millions of people will begin to think about the MacDonald stuff and how it could be possible that such a fantastic flourishing civilization of Beethoven , Mozart ,Goethe and Aristotle could be destroyed by a minority. 80.138.168.55 23:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Now wash your thinking. 80.138.128.87 13:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
You really think that the billionaires, politicis, states ,armies, races are benign to one another ? You don't think you are naive ("the 2003 textbooks say there are no races" etc. etc. ) ? As long as you not accept the truth , you can be compared to children thinking the elders will care for them , but they do not.The media are so free and not controlled by minorities! Hahaha. The world is ruled by pseudo-intelligent,feminine, choleric-sanguine,sick and egotistic people not fit for any deeper scientific and ethic reasoning totally brain-washed by their own propaganda. The leaders of the West e.g. will be made responsible for their weakness and stupidity not stopping the West's death struggle.There is no free speech in Europe, the old concepts as the virago concept and the Hartmann laws are ridiculed by androgynous leftists worldwide.But you can take for granted that maybe the patient "The West" dies, but some of its leftist malign "doctors" will perish, too.You are and stay herd people mainly maladapted to your natural interests , this is your providence according to the Laplace laws.For infinity0 , one could suggest that instead of tuning in the leftist song it would be better if he would enter Chinese politics and appreciate the strenght of sinocentrism instead of multiculturalism which does not serve his interests. For Mr. Rubenstein , one could suggest that the Boasian manipulations should be a bit more sophisticated not denying the existence of the virago concept itself.Whenever someone like me would establish in Harvard or Athens, it would be difficult for him to maintain these lies about biology. Rushton, MacDonald and Harpending are only the vanguard, others will follow, greater thinkers. Whenever an elite gets parasitic (and not all eltites were parasitic) , the suppressed and exploited majority and its leaders will overthrow the system surely. The coming 50 years of Zbigniew Brezinzky's "technotronic" suppression will not alter this fate, either. 80.138.128.87 00:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)