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This whole section needs to be removed, and I did so. "while the Nordic race is a typical masculine one": what is this supposed to mean? I am new to editing here and sorry if I broke any rules deleting this whole section, but nothing was worth keeping.
As I suggested that I would earlier, I tried to take a stab at a new definition for Asian fetish according to the discussion so far. Key points:
Those are all the notes that I have. Let's see some comments. -- Wzhao553 07:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, there have been repeated calls from many, many users -- of all POV's -- for a sharp distinction made between "Asian attraction" and "Asian fetish" at the very beginning of the article. It seems that most people don't want "fetishism" to cover "innocuous attraction," but instead to be defined as something "bad." (Of course, as I said earlier, Asian fetish shouldn't be considered deviant behavior, so how "bad" is the real matter of controversy.) So it seems "fetishism" should stay closer to a qualified form of "obsession" than to "attraction."
Actually, for the record, the most radical POV would be that Asian fetish refers to a situation where a white male can obtain sexual gratification from all and only Asian females, i.e., any Asian will do, but only Asians will do. A little less radical would be to say that Asian fetish means that any Asian will do, but not necessarily only Asians. Another step down is what I've suggested, only Asians will do, but not necessarily any Asian.
Also, it's a valid point that the term is often used humorously and not seriously, but that's probably better placed in the discussion section. As an analogue, "nigger" can also often used humorously, but one wouldn't dream of including that in its definition. Given the number of comparisons that have been made between "Asian fetish" and "nigger," it's important to keep that in mind. -- Wzhao553 22:13, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Another bit of expansion on terminology for the top of the article. -- Wzhao553 23:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to embed a couple of pictures into the article. Is this possible? Can I use standard html code to do this? For example, on the Asian Manhood section of the article, I'd like to have this cartoon displayed right beneath it that I think humorously demonstrates the point that section is trying to make:
http://www.imdiversity.com/Villages/Asian/Secret_Asian_Man/strips/SAMHollywoodThanks2.asp
I'm sure the other sections could be visually improved with some appropriate pictures as well that would serve as a visual confirmation of the concepts discussed in the article. OneViewHere 21:20, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
That's a really good idea. I moved "Model minority myth" to its own article, because after thinking about it for quite a while, I could not for the life of me figure out how it was related to Asian fetish. -- Wzhao553 05:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/09/MNGM2GKMFT43.DTL
Sounds to me like another prime example that should be included under the "social consequences" section. OneViewHere 22:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Ahh, nevermind, I see that the original article already references this incident. It is an updated account of the sentencing though.... OneViewHere 22:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Done. Also removed text of article to save some space. -- Wzhao553 04:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
"There are serious claims that Asian women (e.g. belonging to the Nesid race from the Philippines)are the most pedomorphous of the about 40 races, i.e. more childlike both in physique and in character (e.g. stated in the Knußmann anthropological manual, 4. rev.ed. 1996,Fischer Verlag, Stuttgart).As very masculine men are said to be attracted by very feminine women this could explain some Caucasian men's asiaphilia."
This is actually very interesting material. However, I don't understand why this would explain some Caucasian men's Asiaphilia. If anything, it would seem to provide a possible link between Asian fetish and pedophilia, and an explanation for the popularity of the Phillipines as a sex tourism destination. -- Wzhao553 04:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Once again in easy English: there are more masculine and more feminine races (e.g. Knußmann- manual 1996);Asian Palaemongolids are the most pedomorphous :Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual since 1914, setting the world standard ,John Randal Baker , "Race",Oxford University Press 1974, for racial pedomorphosis including brain morphology of the Mongoliform Sanids, Egon Freiherr v. Eickstedt Rassenkunde 1934 etc. , all the major works, take what you want, I am preparing a comprehensive bibliography for the Mongolids' racial pedomorphosis comprising several hundreds of titles then you have thousands of pages to read only dealing with the Mongolids' racial pedomorphosis .That these works are not on the net or in controlled bibliographies does niot mean anything. Denying the obvious is ridiculous. Masculine men are attracted to feminine women, feminine men are attracted to masculine women (Knußmann manual, e.g. www.femininebeauty.info.com):The homosexual dominance in the model business e.g. additionally supported the virago ideal being the ideal in general in the West now having malign consequences. Asian Mongolid women in contrast are the most feminine because there is a scale from hard to weak or from feminine-pedomorphous to masculine concerning the facial features which are the most important:the most extreme viragos looking nearly like men are unattracive to masculine Nordids , but the most extreme Asian women with small breasts are 1000 times more appealing to masculine Nordids and vice versa. The indeed existing racial schedule that members of one race favour the looks of his kin is secondary. The future will show that femininity - masculinity is the key in marriage and its balance of power. One even has to say it is a universal important law of history , too.This is the dilemma of the White suprematists nitwits who have the deadly ideal of the Nordid women.Deadly because these viragos are unappropriate to them , Europe will perish , Asia will live. But why on earth did nature do these things ? Because nature is only interested in the survival of the race /species , not in harmonious masculine men - feminine women relationships. In a historic context one has to state that Europe failed because Hitler didn't develop the atomic bomb and the masculine racial virago character of Nordid/Europid women making them extremely prone to the feminist biolgical suicide. I have seen the European tragedy for more than 70 years now with my own eyes.Please don't call me Nazi as I have never been a party member or had affiliation to the regime's racism, a racism which I criticized in 1938 in a personal 48 pages-long sophisticated letter to Heinrich Himmler who was like me very much interested in Asian affairs and peoples.Maybe you know his enthusiasm for Shamballah , a mysterious legendary ancient kingdom in Asia. Probably partly due to my belonging to the Prussian aristocracy with exceptional merits for German science for centuries, obviously partly due to my exceptional knowledge he wrote a acknowledging 10 pages letter back to me. These letters have never been published, but will be. I informed Himmler about the inconsistencies of the National Socialist racialist worldview concerning the Jewish people and the Asians in particular. I think n o other anthropologist or man has dared this in such a direct and scientifically elaborate way during this terror regime.I consider this a maximum effort of a single person in opposing the holocaust others would have been probably killed for, but not me. I can clearly prove that Himmler used four historic details which he only could have got to know through this letter in later writings. When I wrote my nearly deadly letter to Himmler, the Allies did appeasement and later on , they let Auschwitz happen. As I have said before I dislike Hitler,I dislike Himmler, I dislike Egon von Eickstedt , I dislike Kevin MacDonald, I dislike Richard Lynn, I dislike Jean Philippe Rushton and especially David Irving, the idiot.They are no philanthropists.But their works are essentially right (except Irving, the idiot)and partly even unique despite of their faults.And what unique new scientific knowledge could you get from me if you only would listen without prejudice. Yes, you can flush everything down the data toilet, but could you wait a bit and think about it properly. Have you ever wondered why there are no German geniuses after 1950 but hundreds before due to their talent and genes as even Steven Jay Gould admits ? Because what they write or do is flushed down the toilet after World War II being an incredible loss to science.The secret of the universe has been detected by a German genius. Thomas Balwin and "Oxford Bede Rundle"have not detected it. A German man I know personally know has discovered it. Is it arrogant to say that I know someone who is not known to the public having the genius of Aristotle ? Do you want to know why there is something rather than nothing , the most difficult question in the world? You certainly will not hear it from someone else in your lifetime , because a l l others since 1000 B. C. could not cope with the dilemma of the "prima causa" and the "nihil privativum". You want really to know t h e secret of the world American scientists are drooling after ?Incredible stuff ? Why do you know ?
Okay, Martin-Saller-Knußmann is available in all major American libraries (www.worldcatlibraries.org).There are the crucial statements e.g. in the 1996 edition that there are more masculine and more feminine (Palaemongolids ) races.If you don't understand German start with Baker on racial pedomorphosis of the Mongoliform Sanids whose pedomorphosis is due to their Mongoliformness because their are a distinct group from the Negrids.Baker chose them because of their Mongoliformness, pedomorphosis and their extreme primitive culture. Recent studies confirm the childlikeness of them who can be diverted easily having a permanent sanguine happiness (see works of e.g. Knußmann pupils). Unfortunately , Boasianism denies these findings due to multiculturalists ideology. But I have some hope that you ,Wzhao 553, will agree to me after reading Baker and some google translation supported German sentences from Martin-Saller-Knußmann, setting the world standard since 1914.There you can find, too , that according to numerous studies masculine men are attracted to feminine women and the line from childlike-feminine humans to masculine humans according to e.g.Max Hartmann's three laws of sexuality. This manual was one of the highest authorities in the English-speaking world, too. I know Canadian professors personally who taught biology according to this handbook complaining that it was marginalized by Jewish Boasian anthropologists.The relative lack of information on the net is due to this marginalization, too. Classical anthropology deciphering Asiaphilia ?
There have been anthropolgical claims since the beginnings of anthropology that the Asian races and especially the Nesid race from the Philippines and Indonesia are the most pedomorphous of the about 40 races, i.e. more childlike both in physique and in character (e.g. stated in the Martin-Saller-Knußmann anthropological manual,setting the world standard since 1914,unparalleled in the Anglo-American world, 4. rev.ed. 1996,Fischer Verlag, Stuttgart).As very masculine men are attracted by very feminine women (cf. Max Hartmann's world-famous and widely accepted three laws of sexuality concerning e.g. the attraction of feminine men by masculine women),this could explain Caucasian men's potential Asiaphilia. Caucasians or Europids have relatively masculine features and are prone to Asiaphilia according to this explanation. It can be assumed that the misandrous feminism in the West and the masculine physical and psychical character of Western viragos will surely fuel Asiaphilia in the foreseeable future.
Thank you, Wzhao553.Correct.Additionally, "goldsea.com" for Asian female beauty superior to European women, "www.femininebeauty.info" for racial masculinity of Western virago idols and their affiliation to homosexual men
It is me being a German professor of anthropology who introduced this.And I want to thank Wzhao533 again that he supports my valuable contributions. He wrote down the latest editions of the works I mean correctly. So please stop to label my contribution "vandalism". "Vandals" are people who destroy, and not ones contributing valuable material. Remember that my four valuable contributions to the article "anthropology" made it the unbiased first-class article that it is now.
The at least 3500 years old concept of the anthropological virago is notoriously ignored by due to leftist political reasons obviously. From the masculine "salzikrum" women in the Babylonian Codex Hammurapi (1700 B.C.(!))up to Knußmann's "Lehrbuch der vergleichenden Anthropologie und Humangenetik" (1996)it has been an important concept as written above. An anthropological virago is a woman with both a physical and psychical masculine disposition (cf. Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual, 1996,the only recent manual for biological anthropology).The about 40 human races are more or less masculine (cf. cited manual). The feminine Mongolids (especially the Nesid race of Indonesia and the Philippines) and the masculine Europids (especially Nordid race) are the extremes. The high percentage of viragines in the West has been a critical factor for the success of feminists movements.It is doubtful whether feminism would have ever developed outside the West where it is nearly invisible because there is no orthogenesis (cf.wikipedia article "orthogenesis").It has been suggested by J.Ph. Rushton and others that Negrids have less pedomorphous traits being more masculine than e.g. Europids. This view is in contrast to Count de Gobineau's view of Negrids as a feminine race. In spite of several characteristics of the Negrids which can be classified as masculine (e.g. widespread athleticism due to selection for physical combat fitness, masculine skull traits), there are others which are clearly feminine (energetically lower choleric character in contrast to energetically higher melancholic character; this extraversion makes Negrids statistically more unfit for intellectual work in comparison to introverts (cf. cited manual for the extroverts' failing in intellectual occupation).Additionally, there is a lower Negrid average IQ of 70 (cf.Richard Lynn, "IQ and the Wealth of Nations").
Response to One(leftist)ViewHere: The worst sort of leftist fashism is to destroy the West as described by Kevin MacDonald.This is your leftist masterpiece of the 20th and the 21th century!You can be proud of it. No normal East Asian and no normal Chinese would doubt the peculiarities of the Chinese Sinid Han race e.g.The page "Goldsea.com"is written by Asians, they are proud of the superior feminine racial traits of their women.Watch it!Wake up!The highest anthropological authorities claimed it!I gave you enough information to verify the correctness of it all(Martin-Saller-Knußmann, John Randal Baker, Freiherr Egon v. Eickstedt,Ashley-Montagu(even this Jewish Boasian) and hundred else .Learn German and get rid of your false destructive leftist bias! You can manipulate the world, but not the truth!Give up!
"Vergleichende Biologie des Menschen: Lehrbuch der Anthropologie und Humangenetik,1996,Gustav-Fischer-Verlag,Stuttgart." Please don't take Mr. Osborne's (a musician !)criticism page as he is an anthropological lay and cites from different books from Knußmann.The quote about frustration and pelvis width cannot be found in this manual !and doesn't recognize that Knußmann hasn't created new "evil" knowledge, but has analyzed the recent literature and again has drawn the same conclusion as Rudolf Martin and Karl Saller setting the world standard since 1914.
Hartmann has been explicitly applied to humans, too (see Knußmann 1996). 1.law: there are two sexes (bipolarity) 2.law: there is a continuum between the two sexes 3.law: every individual human has a special (e.g.hormone induced) position on this continuum Statistically "feminity" seeks "masculinity" to mate, less masculine men seek less feminine women (viragos).The male instinct is to intrude the female, the female one is to be intruded; the more e.g. masculine a woman is (including racial feminity-pedomorphosis) the less she is feeling pleasure to be intruded or dominated by a male (e.g. statistically less heterosexual Nordid Western viragos supporting feminism as an ideology of virago masculinization).
Hello, this is the German anthropology professor.Wzhao553,I did some minor corrections so that the section is now 100% scientifically correct. Now we should eliminate the bias presenting the European partners as "sickos" in this leftist propaganda article.
No, you have only general unsupported stuff.You have the burden to prove it. I deleted it, because the whole anthropology section shows scientifically clearly that it is anti-interracial propaganda.The gettoization of unloved information to new articles is no solution.There are articles which are much longer, your wish to gettoize unloved information is a matter of taste, but not necessary.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.138.181.226 ( talk • contribs) 20:17, 22 January 2006.
I've made some more changes to streamline the rhetoric, trying my best to simplify but not alter the underlying meaning. In general I would agree with you, however, I believe that once we replace the uncited information with cited material, we can then begin removing all the irrelevant and anecdotal information from the article, only keeping what is most important. -- Wzhao553 20:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
And I will produce some scholarly and anthropological well-supported articles by the highest authorities that this is leftist.One could label you a Nazi because you state that a majority of those interracial couples have sick relationships while anthropology and sociology says the contrary. As the West does not use eugenics the southeastern women are e.g. much less genetically sick and neurotic as Western viragos not to say anything about their masculine leftist feminist terror.Have a short look at the polemic, but essentially right page www.nomarriage.com.The Western viragos are the "sickos".For you, the modern "Jews" are the interracial couples.You perpetuate the "yellow peril" panic.You are nothing but a modern Dr. Mengele which I had the unwanted "honour" to meet during my time in the Ahnenerbe.This was a statement by the German anthropology professor. 80.138.189.79 12:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Strong POV in this article and apparently very much a vehicle for disseminating the POV missions of AsianGuy.com and ModelMinority.com. Does this article really feel encyclopedic to anyone here? Strange. -- AStanhope 04:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Ashley Montagu obviously means Mongoloid in the Eickstedtian sense which is the most precise: Mongolid : Asian races; Mongoloid : similar to the Asian races ; Mongoliform : having some characteristic traits of the Asian races
Yes, it is true that there is a lot of superfluous and unverified information in this article that does not make it encyclopedic. The Model Minority and Yellow Peril sections don't actually have anything to do with Asian fetish, except in the broader context of both being Asian American related issues. The negative stereotypes section is loosely associated with Asian fetish, in the sense that (negative) sexual stereotypes may be considered the alleged source of fetishism, but the section itself does not implicitly state this. Plus, while the Platonist division of stereotypes into physical, emotional and cultural levels seemed very cute at the time, I was really just making up stuff then, and I think that after several protracted edit wars, the Negative stereotypes section really serves no purpose anymore.
In my personal informed opinion, the best way to fix this is to remove the yellow peril and model minority sections, and then merge the Asian American manhood and Physical stereotypes section into a subsection, which, along with the Asian American womanhood subsection, would belong under a section entitled Sexuality and stereotypes. The Yellow peril and Model Minority stereotypes would then be mentioned in passing in the introduction to this section, which would then move on to the stereotypes that are of importance to Asian fetish.
ThreeAnswers, let me know what you think of this. I'll go ahead and make the changes if other people agree. -- Wzhao553 04:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I've made the first round of revisions, and condensed whatever I thought possible. I've also moved the references up to the section. I'd rather not combine references to different sections as they're coming into place, since that will easily lead to confusion.
I think we're making good progress on this. It's now a matter of supplementing the material here with some additional sources. -- Wzhao553 15:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
If I were writing this article from scratch, it would have come out something like this --
That's a bit rough but I think you can see what I'm getting at. "The Yellow Peril" would discuss changing perceptions of Asian-Americans through history and mention that even the term 'Asian-American' itself is of recent vintage. "Contemporary media portrayal" would be the place to talk about stereotypes and the disparity in portrayals of AM/WF and WM/AF. In "Controversy" I would discuss accusation of reverse racism and double standards.-- ThreeAnswers 01:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The fetish of Asian women as little petite submissive cuties ("Nadeshiko Yamato"being the term for the submissive Asian (Japanese)woman ideal ) has its basic origin in the Asian women's anthropological feminine pedomorphous traits. In contrast to that it is not possible feature Nordic virago valkyries (1,9 m,athletic)as little petite submissive cuties.
Of course it was coined during the war, but it is giving a name to the much older woman ideal which is differing from Europe significantly. It is usual in history that a much older concept is labeled relatively late (here in a time when the behaviour of the women became problematic and should be redirected to tradition).While the social position of women in Europe was relatively high, the position in Islam, Jewry and Eastern Asia was very low. Women have been thought to be "unclean" in many Asian countries and are not allowed to touch Buddhist monks e.g.Undoubtedly the Asian "Nadeshiko Yamato" signifies a femininity and submissiveness which is unique in the world.As it is a metaphorical name for the fetishized women it should be included here ( Nadeshikos are e.g. shown in "The last samurai" or "You only live twice").
Over the past few weeks, this article has developed some serious problems. An anon editor (IP 80.138.xxx.xxx) has systematically been adding highly questionable material to it. At first his stuff was reverted by ThreeAnswers and OneViewHere and there was discussion (above) about including the material. It was noted that this anon has made problem edits on the subject of Virago in both the English and German Wikipedias. The anon has described himself as both a German soldier who "lost two fingers at Stalingrad" and an "anthropology professor." If you think about it for a minute, he cannot be both. An examination of his sources reveals that the material he keeps adding to the articles is about equally valid. Sources he regularly uses, such as R. Knussmann and v. Eickstedt are not acceptable references. They both present theories of race that have not gained acceptance in anthropology. While widely adopted by white supremacists, they are not suitable for an encyclopedia.
The article is in need of major repairs. It now has two reference sections in the middle and several questionable sections. I will proceed to edit it and hope to get some cooperation from the regular editors. Oh, yes, and please, lets all try to keep in mind the dictum: Don't feed the trolls! Sunray 18:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
You are a Jew and a helper of "Steve" as you call Mr.Rubenstein. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.138.174.234 ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC).
Martin, Saller and Knußmann are all listed as
Berühmte Anthropologen in the Anthropologie article. There is a 1990 biography entitled Der Anthropologe Rudolf Martin. John Baker Randal was a professor at Oxford. To dismiss these authors as questionable would be akin to claiming that Aristotle is a fraud because parts of his Physics have been invalidated. It would be incorrect to say that the sources present theories of race which have not gained acceptance in anthropology; rather, they are theories which have either been discredited as pseudoscience or have otherwise fallen out of favor among modern anthropologists. Nevertheless, since they are relevant to the historical context of the article, they should be included in their proper context, and so long as sufficient counterarguments from modern anthropologists are provided afterwards.
So long as the article both accurately reflects and does not assert the truth of Knußmann's work, it should be an acceptable reference for the section. However, I do agree that the anthropological material should be constrained to the anthropology section, and should not appear in any sections after that, as this material is not relevant outside of so-called classical anthropology. -- Wzhao553 23:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, Knußmann was the institute director for human biology at the University of Hamburg. He was an editor of the Journal of Comparative Human Biology from 1990 to 1998. Those fall well within the realm of anthropology. As you must be well aware, I have already said at least three times in this very talk page that the article should include counterarguments from modern anthropologists in order to maintain NPOV. It's possible, however, that you may be misunderstanding the idea of original research. The 1914 manual by Martin and Saller was considered authoritative in their day. Knußmann used his 1996 book as teaching material at the University of Hamburg (which caused a student protest, in fact). There is no dispute that the manual contains a wealth of valid physical anthropological information. Simply put, the POV nature of the section at present is itself quite correctable and is not grounds for deletion.
Moreover, those of us familiar with postcolonial studies will understand the importance of including late 19th and early 20th century anthropological research within the historical context of the fetishism of the Other in Western Europe. If you wish to invite an actual anthropologist like Rubenstein to revise any inaccuracies and to help provide NPOV, then I would of course be happy; however, if you wish to dispute the fact that anthropological studies played a role in the construction of stereotypes of Asians, then you would need to provide references to back that claim. -- Wzhao553 01:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Why do we talk about "Asian Americans" when we really seem to be referring to "Asians"? In particular, the sections "Asian American womanhood" and "Asian American manhood" seem mislabeled. Or should we just rename the article "Asian American fetish"? - Will Beback 21:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
actually i have read a book in Chinese (you know, like women talk over like marriage and man and so on),when talking about one of her Taiwanese friend at the ending edge of marriable age, said she married those non-Asian ambassador in Beijing within a month. She said that all of those ambassador's wife have auite a lot of Chinese, from like Asia or North America, are usually really catty and so on..... And those ambassadir is easily fooled by them -_-'||| I am full Asian, so basically I dont know wut to say...
All detailed references for the "Biological anthropology" section have just been edited. Any questions left ?
Sunray, you sound like a very reasonable person so far. However, I'm not exactly sure what it is that you want. If you were to read through, say, this article harshly summarizing Knußmann's Lehrbuch, you will find that the anonymous editor has done a fairly good job at presenting what Knußmann has to say accurately enough. You wanted direct quotations, you have been provided with direct quotations. Furthermore, we have agreed that there is a lack of alternate points of view, but I expected that you must be aware that according to the deletion policy, POV issues are not problems that require deletion.
Now, I can cite sources on cultural relativism that present a different point of view and ignore Knußmann's type of research and I can cite sources like Wissenschaftlicher Rassismus which directly criticizes Knußmann; or I can sit here and argue with you over whether or not we should delete this section; but I simply do not have the time or effort to do both. If your goal is to get this material off the internet at all costs, then I can't say that I would agree with you, but if you do want to help improve this article by expanding on the section and helping to provide a more balanced POV, then you must know that I have already given you my support in that endeavor. -- Wzhao553 18:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree to Wzhoa553 completely.Additionally, there are many mistakes in this article which I will present here in detail. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.138.134.141 ( talk • contribs) 18:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC) I will never stop to resist this Boasian manipulation of science. 80.138.134.141 19:06, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
It is all too obvious why the Rubenstein group does that censoring.They want to finish the work of their "scientific" forefathers. 80.138.134.141 00:43, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
As much as this is a contentious issue about what many believe to be a racist phenomenon personal attacks are proscribed by Wikipedia policy. The history of this talk page shows a lot of people making personal attacks rather and debating the issue rather than assuming good faith and debating how to make it a better article. Let's avoid accusations of racism or anything else.-- ThreeAnswers 20:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Wzhao533. For our pertinent and excellent anthropology section, I am now called a "wackjob" and a "racist" by the Rubenstein group again. Those about 20 people described on silsor's page see now that they cannot control the wikipedia any more because more and more people stop to tolerate their censorship.To put it in a greater context, some "groups" have a vital interest in the manipulation of the media which is c r u c i a l for their own survival. 80.138.193.187 21:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I have decided today (on 30th of January 2006) to take over the about 50 most important strategic articles in the wikipedia and to break the censorship on my own. Others are heartly welcomed to join me if their time allows it. From now on will dedicate 14 hours a day to reach this goal. Among the strategic articles is e.g. "relativity theory" where I will contribute unique critical material."Atonal music" and "Ludwig van Beethoven" have just been edited by me. It will take the Rubenstein group now many experts in many fields including some translators for German, French and numerous other languages to cope with this new situation. 80.138.193.187 21:44, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Wzhoa533.Now they blame it on the "silly algae".They don't want to read about Hartmann's world famous laws or read at least a Cheng abstract. What was just the name of the bird ignoring everything by putting his head in the sand ? 80.138.193.187 22:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Push the search button for "silsor" then you can see on administrator Mr.Bonham's page from Toronto (who has nothing to do with the allegations personally) the quotes from others about the "cabal" which Bonham wants to present as ridiculous obviously. I can confirm these allegations essentially by my own experiences and observations. 80.138.193.187 23:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
That's it. And if you google "jews control wikipedia" you find certainly a wiki talk page (deleted in the meantime but not on google?) of a certain user:silsor where you can read the allegations about Rubenstein and 15 others. Strangely enough there were some impostors (!) of silsor as I have seen. 80.138.193.187 23:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Very briefly and without lengthy justifications. The Neomarxist, postcolonialist view of "Asian fetishism" is that it is the process by which Asians are invested with stereotypes such as submissiveness, innocence, femininity, etc. In short, to fetishize is to trivialize and stereotype. To understand Asian fetishism is to understand (sexual) stereotypes of Asians. So we need to understand where the stereotypes come from. One proposal is as follows:
We include work such as Knußmann's because it reflects folk anthropology. For example, if we were to go out and ask the first 100 people we meet whether they think that
then we would see that Knußmann's theory resonates well with folk anthropology. There exists convincing evidence (which I will not provide here) that people do think like this.
Thus, according to this view, a discussion of folk and physical anthropology necessarily precedes discussion of stereotypes, which themselves are at the core of fetishism. This is why I placed the anthropology section above the stereotypes section. Also, note that I'm assuming here that the article has a terminology section which reflects postcolonialist definitions. Nevertheless, it is correct to state that the Stereotypes section should be the centerpiece of this entry. -- Wzhao553 23:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
However, in the past there were very very violent episodes in Asian history. What has resulted in the present day is simply a society that is built for such. Heaven's knight 05:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The real explanation is simple. It is indeed racism. Racism operating, even here (wink, wink). One should use the truest information and the best minds, not merely the wank of lonely dorky racists. Heaven's knight 05:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ironically,Tookie shot some Asians. 80.138.193.187 00:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Hallo, HerrPhilipp,danke für das große Lob. Ich habe mich auf deiner Page gerade gemeldet.
80.138.193.187
00:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but we can't assert the truth or falsity of biological differences contributing to marriage disparity, since that's just one (some might say, unabashedly racist) view among many. As we all know, according to the cultural relativists (aka mainstream anthropology), biological differences don't matter. As for me, I'm just puzzled as to why people here think that this line of research has no followers; and as for Sailer, he's no anthropologist, but it wouldn't hurt to include his now-infamous article in the external links. -- Wzhao553 00:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if Steve Sailor's article is appropriate, considering it is mere wank. The contributions of certain suspect Germans shall be left out as well; this is not a showcase for racist theories. - Heaven's knight 01:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
There are many mediocre and low self esteem people to be found in mainstream white american society. there are an obvious even greater many who, although they may be nice and good people, are confused as to the functioning of the world and their place in society. what do men/women want, etc. The truth of things shall be left to the best and hopefully the objective too, hehe, not to whoever can string together a bunch of fancy words, spin up a nice fancy web of theory, especially not those who are admittedly mediocre and obviously ill intentioned.
Why trust nerds and rejects with explaining social phenomena? - Heaven's knight 01:26, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Let's be honest, people truly in the know are not watching with angst from the sidelines, they are not biding all their time trying to construct a fairytale of how wonderful people of their skin color supposedly are so that they themselves can try to ride coattails, live vicariously through these magical gods they have created. To deny the operation of racism in American society is foolish. There are a great many good and decent people, there are a few cool and badass people, and there are the obvious dorky newb racists, of course not only in America. We do not need to give them a voice; after all, it obviously does them no good, and they only seek to do harm. Perhaps more later - Heaven's knight 01:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmm.. it is not so much attacking interracial couples as it is against racism. I should know, I myself experienced racism growing up, and it affected me tremendously. No doubt this would bring joy to some racists. I am also an extremely sexy individual, among other things, so it gives me an appropriate perspective, beyond that of a good heart, lol, (which many people to their credit have but not enough people)to see the truth. Dorky white racists say I am ugly, but sadly, it is only they. Heaven's knight 05:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Wzhao553 said: "We include work such as Knußmann's because it reflects folk anthropology." This sort of generalization is problematic. Knaussman's work is marginal because it is not supported by folk anthropology (which, by the way is a branch of social anthropology, not physical anthropology). While there are many studies on racial prejudice between cultures, Asian fetishism goes against the very strong tendency in human societies to fear and mistrust people from other cultures That is why Knussman's work must be handled with caution. It is very hard to bring it into the article without doing original research. Sunray 16:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The mate seeking according to the 36 races' "Rassenschablonen" (prefering mates from own race) is not as biologically powerful as the female -male heteroracial attraction (Knußmann).Everything has been criticized by now, but nothing scientifically pertinent. 80.138.168.54 20:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
As biological explanation -- Mr Phil 16:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The things which disturbed the moderators on the German site was some weird stuff the other German user who only uses his IP address posted on my discussion page yesterday evening, so talk to him if you have a problem with what he wrote. I have already asked him not to post any more controversial stuff on my user page, if you look at my discussion page.
--
Mr Phil
19:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Higher levels of testosterone in men produce more masculine physiques and more aggressive personalities, which in turn lead to higher sexual attractiveness for women.
[4]
The source given does not match the claim. Infinity0 talk 20:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Black men, do you have more Asian men having sex with Black women or Black men with Asian women? Fits right into the picture. Most of the research articles directly compare Whites with Asians, not Whites to other Whites. -- Mr Phil 22:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Let's be honest, being supported by Steve Sailor means that it is nothing but bunk. Now as for testosterone levels, they are highly variable with environmental conditioning. To deny environmental conditioning is the mark of the mediocre person, one who believes themself capable of just this much and no more no matter what circumstances would be thrust upon them, one who has proscribed themselves from being the apple of the eye of mainstream society, and perhaps also one who does not wish to see others succeed. Heaven's knight 05:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I want to get back to this Karl fellow who never signs his messages. Please explain why you think that "Jews Control Wikipedia". Also, if you are trying to make an argument that Asian's are "passive" due to their "lower testosterone" and natural tendancies, then do you think other groups....say Blacks, are more violent and aggressive due to their natural tendancies? That is the logical extension of your argument. And if that is the case, please explain how that is not utterly and completely racist. I don't want to see lengthy anthropology dissertation psycho-babble. I want a direct yes or no answer to my questions. OneViewHere 21:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The anthropology section stands for itself. Are there any scientific well-supported objections to it ?Mr Phil, Wzhao533 and me are respectable scholars of medicine, humanities and anthropology and we have given very,very detailed information to you.By the way, the anthropology section is unique on the net as e.g. Mr.Phil's warm comment is a hint for ("fascinating").I will now go on eliminating the bias in the about 50 strategic articles in the English wikipedia on my own. Others are heartly welcome to join me.I have just improved "Ludwig van Beethoven ", "atonal music" and "relativity theory".And it will take the opposing group a lot of experts in different fields including translators to cope with it.I look back on more than 60 years of scientific experience being a member of the Ahnenerbe,too.As I have said above, my intents were always benign to humanity. My opposing the oversimplifying Anti-Asian Nazi racialism in the very dangerous letter to Himmler in 1938 is more than any indivual could have achieved.Given the fact it had changed the plans of Himmler it could have saved the lifes of millions of people. Not too unlikely as Himmler was totally irrational.It was clear to me from the beginning that there is something as individualty. Race is only one constituent of the human, sex and individualty are the two others. Nevertheless, all constituents are very significant.As I share Beethoven's ideals, my vision is a community of all people. But as many scientists and artists have shown us, this is a utopia with only a small chance to be realized. War, fight, rape and greed and average humans determine the human existence.The expeditions to Tibet in 1934,1935 and 1937 in which I took part showed me the attractiveness of the central Sinid women in the Himalaya. Of course, if you google for "Nazi Tibet expedition" you will find that the scientists don't know anything about those mentioned expeditions. Furthermore , I have many files in my archive the NARA would be keen to get. Now, I am a fit, but a very old man. And as the racial model doesn't determine everything, the model that members of the SS or the Ahnenerbe were all gangsters, is not correct. I was called Nazi by you, but I have never been a party member nor did I belong to the Ahnenerbe when it was integrated in the SS. There is never a collective guilt or a simple yes or no, good or bad. As the German Nikolaus von Kues has put it, there is a "coincidentia oppositorum" in everything, one of the deepest thoughts of man. This article is only a preliminary for further edits on the "Holy Grail" and other fascinating topics which could be of much, much value for you. "In diesen heil'gen Hallen kennt man die Rache nicht". As I know that you are young people who have not found their way in life yet, I will see your hostilities as a kind of misunderstanding due to a knowledge gap.Good afternoon, gentlemen. 80.138.168.54 23:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to be rude but I rather doubt you are who you say you are, mr. ww2 dinosaur. Moving on, the fascinations of an individual are not able to be extended to the world, otherwise they would not be treated as fantastical escapes from the regular world. After all, everyone has their own wishes, and there are some that seem mighty strange to others. When explaining the world the truth is the only admissible, not wishful thinking. Not everything can be known right away, how could we presume to explain the entire universe already? we must be comfortable with ambiguity.
Heaven's knight
05:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
All the provided sources were of no relevance to these claims. See history for details. Moved to talk page for further discussion. Infinity0 talk 22:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
This is nothing but bunk. For the truth, one needs a real brain, and one who is objective. There are interpretations here that are not supported by the evidence; instead, everything is setup into a nice fantasy story for racists. The whiny insistence on fact is a nice touch :P. Musculature is hardly a fact, lol, penile size is unknown and imo impossible, testicular volume is unknown and imo impossible, baldness is unknown, life expectancy and perhaps to a lesser extent chronic disease are extremely dependent upon environmental factors. The assumption of negative things, insistence on making it true, willful overlooking of environmental factors, all speak to a troubled mind and wishful thinking. For a white person to fail in white society, that person is a failure indeed. Heaven's knight 05:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
PS I personally have very high testosterone, gigantic balls indeed, however like other asians my facial chest and body hair is not especially pronounced. I can grow goatee like those Qin terracotta statues and burns but not a santa claus beard.. although there are east asians who do, of course they are rare. However, this has not prevent me from and naturally, many East Asians from assuming a masculine body type with well developed musculature, and furthermore, I am supersexy. Racists are fools indeed. Heaven's knight 05:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Every statement is sourced, but I will add more sources over time to further back up every single point. Instead of vandalizing the article, you could rather add more sources for many of the other spurious claims made in this article by previous authors which aren't backed up to a similar degree. -- Mr Phil 23:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, then add some sections at the bottom showing that Asians average the same testosterone levels as other groups or that testosterone has no effects on masculinity, muscularity etc.
All the material IS sourced much more extensively than the rest of the article! If you see specific errors, write a critique at the bottom like is done with other points of criticism as well. -- Mr Phil 01:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
This is unnecessary; testosterone has many variables affecting it. One of true capability will recognize this. Furthermore assuming testosterone is so observable in the population there is no reason to assume that Asians have any less testosterone. This is nothing but mud slinging of a racist from the majority population. From a mediocre person who couldn't make it in their own mainstream society. Heaven's knight 05:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
As the German quotes were explicitly requested by my critics, I edit them again. 80.138.168.54 01:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Today (31st January2006) I have decided to build a new Shangri-La in the English Wikipedia. 80.138.193.56 02:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Having grown up as an Asian American, I have a unique perspective upon both populations and considering that I am unbiased, I will take my observations. White people have no advantage over the Chinese. Remember that when we categorize so broadly, we are dealing with very large diverse populations with great geographical spread Heaven's knight 05:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Testosterone is the male sex hormone, higher levels make you more masculine, more muscular, more aggressive etc. -- Mr Phil 08:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Mr Phil, the sources you give in that section have NO RELEVANCE WHATSOEVER to the claims being made. Stop inserting lies in the article! Infinity0 talk 16:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Try the Steve Sailer article "Is love Colorblind?". Basically higher testosterone levels of Whites leads to an enhanced sex dimorphism of wm-af couples compared to am-wf couples regarding muscularity, aggression etc. For the same reasons you practically don't have any Asian men with Black women.
http://www.isteve.com/IsLoveColorblind.htm
If you consider this to be "original research", which it is not, since all the sources are research done by others, you need to delete the rest of the article as well. Where are your sources that any of the other things claimed in this article contribute to an "Asian fetish" on the part of White males, except for anecdotal evidence? My impression is rather, that you personally don't like the conclusions and you only want this Wikipedia article to feature aspects of the issue you support. Sorry, but Wikipedia is not your personal platform, if that is what you want you need to post at modelminority. -- Mr Phil 19:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
LOL tell that to the white racists. It is not surprising that they would show up here since they are, to a man, mediocre or otherwise feeling that they are not far from failures in life. Heaven's knight 05:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The word "testosterone" does not even appear in that source, you fucking phoney. Infinity0 talk 19:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
From the article:
"Muscularity may most sharply differentiate the races in terms of sexual attractiveness. Women like men who are stronger than they; men like women who are rounder and softer. The ending of segregation in sports has made racial differences in muscularity harder to ignore."
Muscularity is largely determined by testosterone levels. -- Mr Phil 20:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually it's even more determined by culture. Do you work out?? lol Heaven's knight 05:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
And why do you assume that? And what about ALL THE OTHER CLAIMS WHICH YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED SOURCES FOR?? Infinity0 talk 20:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Where are your sources, I'm talking about any kind of systematic studies, not anecdotal evidence, of the other claims made in the article?
--
Mr Phil
20:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I didn't write the rest of the article; check up the provided sources yourself. I checked up all the sources you provided for those claims, and they were completely irrelevant. Also, the crappiness of the rest of an article doesn't justify keeping an even crappier section. Infinity0 talk 20:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Your claims are NOT backed up by your provided sources. If you can find a section that is not backed up by a source, then you can delete it. Infinity0 talk 20:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Instead of always talking in generalizations, why don't you tell me which specific claim is not backed up by a source? -- Mr Phil 20:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Please don't insult Mr Phil.He is totally right according e.g. to the Knußmann manual where it is stated that there are more feminine races (see the anthropology section)and feminity and masculinity are hormone-driven and even influencing the prenatal brain development (see Knußmann,1996,pp.221-335 "Geschlechtertypologie" and remember e.g. Baker's Sanid brain morphology statements).Please excuse for the "fucking phoney" insult,Infinity0.This "German bashing" shows your helplessness. Furthermore,it is not by chance that some Germans oppose some "Americans" here. 80.138.193.56 20:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Like I told you the first time I removed the section, see the page history for the specific reasons on why I removed each source. Infinity0 talk 20:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
All of the claims in your section. I give specific reasons in the edits of their removal - see the history of this page. Infinity0 talk 20:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
You just didn't want to bother searching through history, exposing you as a vandal. Here are all the sources and reaons for removal.
So, Mr Phil, stop bullshitting, and making sockpuppet accounts through anonymous users. Infinity0 talk 21:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I rest my case. Infinity0 talk 20:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Mr Phil, you seem to have nothing constructive to contribute to Wikipedia. Stop wasting people's time. You're pathetic. Infinity0 talk 21:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I have not criticised anything, only pointed out the FACT that all the sources are of NO RELEVANCE. Improve the section on your own computer, then upload it when it's done. We do NOT give readers complete bullshit. Infinity0 talk 21:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Meld dich bitte mal, Herr Phillip auf deiner Seite.Danke. 80.138.193.56 21:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
What's with the section on Pheromones? If, as the poster admits, that pheromones haven't even proved to exist yet, then why mention it in the article? You might as well talk about "Mojo". ie, Hey, black dudes just have more MOJO and rhythm, therefore they get more action!" This article is going in a ridiculous direction and is straying too far from the core topic. OneViewHere 22:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh and also, for Dr Phil or whoever posted a article that appeared in "American Rennaisance" Magazine. That magazine is a white-supremacist magazine. Their readers are anti-immigration, deny the Jewish Holocause ever happened, and believe that Black men have low IQ's. The mere fact that you are reading that magazine pretty much indicts you as a racist. OneViewHere 22:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Your criticism is scientifically impertinent.There are three groups of your "strategies " up to now:
1.insults ( "fucking phooney " (!)to Mr.Phil)2.diversion to other even more controversial matters impertinent to the discussion 3. impertinent connections of holocaust denial etc. to us to present us as impersonified Nazi satans (me)or neo-Nazis (Mr.Phil)("Totschlagsargument",Martin Walser).As I said before, I did more against the holocaust than any single person else (Himmler letter 1938).
80.138.193.56
23:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
There are three groups of your "strategies " up to now: 1.insults ( "fucking phooney " (!)to Mr.Phil)2.diversion to other even more controversial matters impertinent to the discussion 3. impertinent connections of holocaust denial etc. to us to present us as impersonified Nazi satans (me)or neo-Nazis (Mr.Phil)("German bashing","Totschlagsargument",Martin Walser).As I said before, I did more against the holocaust than any single person else (Himmler letter 1938). 80.138.193.56 23:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC).Is this not enough proof of benevolence ? My building a new Shangri-La in the wikipedia is totally independent from your actions ("Don't feed the trolls", a giant underestimation of the progress to come in the next weeks and months. You cannot block free speech.One exceptional person can dominate the whole English wikipedia for the sake of the welfare of all sincere people. 80.138.193.56 23:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Sir, I hope you know that it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to be dominated by one person, no matter how exceptional he may be.-- ThreeAnswers 23:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
If someone's edits are scientifically valuable, for the benefit of all sincere people and if there is an unscientific group manipulating the wikipedia including self-deception, then it would be good if someone benign dominated the wikipedia. Of course, you sit somewhere out there having the best intentions,but is your editing really benign to humanity or does it reflect leftist anti-European and anti-German bias?Some of you will agrree to me when they are older and see the horrible catastrophe the leftists and their sub-groups have brought to the West.You have asked what algae have to do with femininity and viragos (fascinating, isn't it ?). Can you imagine why "right"-chirality is predominant in the cosmos ? Can you imagine why whiny femininity and androgyny is wrong concerning ruling continents ? The anthropolgy section is first class now. The rest is anecdotal common place and should be replaced by better stuff. 80.138.193.56 00:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
For the Himmler letter, see above. 80.138.193.56 00:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)"To punish is easy, to prevent is difficult." (Latin saying).
Willbe back,you have a rather Bolshewist motto on your user page: "All edits not done in goodwill or which are incorrect will be cleaned and liquidated". Do you additionally think, that the editors of such material should be liquidated, too ?Or do you prefer behaviorist correcting methods as the GULAG ? 80.138.193.56 00:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I see a lot of spurrious transitive reasoning going on here. ie, if A = B and C = D, then A must equal D. This is false. example. Dr. Phil is claiming that Asian American's lower crime rate is "proof" of their passiveness. This is faulty logic. There are many reasons why Asian crime rate may be lower:
1. Immigration is self-selective. Only industrious and educated people have the financial means to emmigrate to another country. Income and educational levels directly correspond with crime rates. But as Blacks have according to some authorities a mean IQ of 70 (lynn,IQ and the wealth of nations), race and wealth are corresponding relatively well at the moment. 80.138.192.206 02:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
2. Many Asian criminals prey on their own communities. ie, their victims are Asian. Asian immigrants often do not trust the police and often have a language barrier. Therefore much Asian crime goes unreported. But environmentalists say, too, that the extreme cohesiveness of , e.g. the Sinocentrism, prevents a lot of intra-cultural aggression. 80.138.192.206 02:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
3. The term "Asian" encompasses numerous racial groups, languages, and cultures. This segmentation means that oftentimes Asians are "the only Asian in the area". Being segmented by race, language, and geography is a disincentive for crime. And unlike other European immigrant groups whose language is based on the Latin Romance language and whose apparence can essentially pass for "white", Asian immigrants stand out.
"Mongolid", "Mongoloid " , "Mongoliform "are sufficient Eickstedtian "Trivialnamen" as numerously explained by me before (and in the anthro-section, see Knußmann 1996, too).
80.138.192.206
02:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
So quoting Asian crime statistics really doesn't prove what Dr. Phil is trying to claim. Simplying a complex topic such as crime rates and using it to apply to "Asian Fetishism" is clearly inappropriate. OneViewHere 00:57, 2 February 2006 (UTC). Really ?
But also, let's say the Black crime rates are lower as there is a general uncertainty in crime stats. 80.138.192.206 02:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen, a small suggestion to my critics: relax,get calm and be astonished due to my edits to come.Good evening. 80.138.192.206 02:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
To back up claims of differing average testosterone levels. -- Mr Phil 03:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Added some more sources to physical anthropology too, and some criticisms. -- Wzhao553 03:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Everybody, please do not attempt to delete the Testosterone section anymore. I'll try to write some criticisms by tomorrow evening. -- Wzhao553 06:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Sheridan Prasso is a dolichocranious leptomorph virago, obviously of mainly Jewish descent (Armenoid). She herself is a good example of the correctness of my edits on race and the virago. She competes with males in a male world. She is envious of the Asian femininity,but not for the femininity itself , only for the attention it is paid to by Westerners.She obviously tries to play the woman teacher for the "deviant" European males in revenge, as she only presents them as "sick".Of course, she also has only the best intentions.It is time to re-establish the virago article.The virago article is a logical necessity out of this article (the "antipodes" to the Asian women on the F-M-line)).All others are heartly welcome to help me in building the new Shangri-La in the wikipedia. 80.138.192.206 12:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
There are hundreds of millions of viragines,too, like the virago Jewess Prasso who is envious of the Asian women's impact on many Western males (the basic envy is the penis envy of the virago, not of the woman as Freud misinterpreted that).It is time to re-establish the virago article as a direct consequence of this article.Everybody is invited to join me .
80.138.192.206
20:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Who has created and improved civilization ? Western Europid men.Of the 1000 greatest inventions, ca. 990 were made by Europids.And the leftists deny the comparability of culture at all and the uniqueness of their creators and improvers. But why don't they all go back to the Savannah and dismiss computers and mobile phones and TVs? My improving this article is such a cultural improving in a hostile environment.Of course,the article can get much better , but it is scientifically seen the best stuff on the whole net in the moment. 80.138.192.206 20:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
-- 80.77.243.36 21:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
No, of course not, only interlinear commenting, I forgot to sign. We all know that you have not such an opinion. 80.138.192.206 20:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
This statement is patently false:
"The higher average life expectancies of women and East Asians, fewer incidences of prostate cancer and coronary heart disease among East Asians"
Asian heart disease ranges from 20-27% in the article that Dr. Phil linked to. This range mirrors the rate of heart disease among whites. It's ridiculous to point to this as an indication of testosterone levels anways, because the single biggest factor in heart disease is DIET. The American white diet is much higher in fat than a typical Asian diet. And there have been studies that have shown that as 2nd and 3rd generation Asians assimilate into American culture, their rates of heart disease have risen as they eat more and more American food. Also, heart disease rates can be directly correlated with income levels. For example: Poor black americans who have a poor diet and can only afford to eat cheap fast food are naturally going to have higher rates of heart disease. Dr. Phil's link doesn't support his contentions and should be removed. OneViewHere 20:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
It is obvious Mr_Phil is pushing his own agenda to have his own opinions place on this wikipedia article. None of the sources he provides have any relevance whatsoever to the claims being made; neither are the claims linked logically to the main theory. He has only edited this article, leading me to believe he has a special interest in vandalising it. Furthermore, he refuses to even attempt to defend himself, yet repeatedly adds these erroneous claims and irrelevant sources into the article, without discussion.
Infinity0 talk 23:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
They are not critiques. They are statements of fact that these sources, and therefore the WHOLE SECTION is bogus. Also, wikipedia does not endorse use of proxies. Infinity0 talk 00:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
See Baker for Negrid flesh penis (big when flaccid, smaller when erect compared to Europeans). See J. Ph. Rushton for the testosterone theory support.The testosterone is even the consequence of the pedomorphosis ,not the cause:positive selection for paedomorphosis (e.g.small body and epicanthic fold as adaptations to cold climate) 80.138.192.206 00:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC) Mr. Phil is totally right in insisting on the hormones, he has my full support. 80.138.192.206 00:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Has no relevance to this article. Also, Mr_Phil, stop logging on through anonymous IPs and pretending it's someone else. Infinity0 talk 00:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
My argument is against the entire section, not its content. The section is unsourced and original research. Infinity0 talk 00:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This article has been protected to stop a reversion war. Please see the dispute resolution process; if you disagree with the protection of this article, please contact me or see Requests for page protection. Note that disagreement amongst editors is the reason the article is protected, and should not be used as an argument for unprotection. // Pathoschild ( admin / talk) 00:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Google search gives 705 results. This person is not significant enough for an encyclopedia. I suggest all references to him are removed. Infinity0 talk 00:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC) Ah, you only count matches, but don't read them. 80.138.192.206 01:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)The google search for e.g. "sex" has millions of matches , but you will soon notice that there are less than 1000 real matches (!). So what about counting matches ? Is 706 enough - or 720 ? Your arguments get more and more silly showing your helplessness. 80.138.192.206 01:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Good idea. 80.138.192.206 01:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The testosterone and anthropology parts are the only parts written by the user Dr. Phil and you, the German professor who has stated in this discussion forum that "Jews control Wikipedia", that women fighting for equal rights are "whiny feminists", and that "White men are responsible for most of the important inventions in the world". Dr. Phil refuses to addresses the obvious claim that his links have absolutely nothing to do with testosterone, and the issue of testosterone itself has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this article. I think it's pretty clear what your motivations are.
143.127.3.10
01:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Phil. and me created a respectable anthropology section. I have not heard any pertinent counter-arguments yet.
Did the world-famous Jewish Boasian Ashley Montagu (author of the UN declaration on race !)err when he called Mongoloids neotenous making them "delicately beautiful "? Were Max Hartmann's world-famous laws wrong ? Why does Knußmann, the former president (!)of the German Scientific Society (Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft,internationally respected no.1 organization in Germany, expert in the John F. Kennedy murder (!))and doyen of the German anthropology , repeat these claims in his unique manual 1996 ? Do you not think that Knußmann has mentally suffered enough from the unsubstantiated attacks on him by leftists ? Don't you think it is incredible that juvenile leftists can block a whole branch of science (e.g. Asta- Hamburg ) and now justice must be done to him by us all? 80.138.192.206 01:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
For four years, you could wipe away any criticism, but now as some top-class scientists have entered the stage, it's getting quite hard for you.Dr. Phil is an exceptional specialist in his field, me being a former member of the Ahnenerbe with unique knowledge and experience. I know you have really good intentions. And as Immanuel Kant said the intentions are important, too.But you must read much, much more and much , much more experience. Infinity0, I can understand you, you feel offended as a 16 year old Chinese boy. But please take into consideration that I have a high esteem of Mongolids in general (see above).I invite everybody to help us in building a new Shangri-La in the wikipedia. 80.138.192.206 01:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The direct consequence of Knußmann's theory, as is proven in the section itself, is that Asian fetish is a social substitute for pedophilia in Western society. If you take the reasoning one more step, if people are attracted to Asians because they look like children, then those same people are attracted to childlike features. But the point is that they only look like children. Children are the real thing, Asians are just the simulacra. However, there are laws against pedophilia, but not against Asian fetish. Hence, Asian fetish must be a social substitute for pedophilia in Western society; and according to Knußmann's logic, all Caucasians who are intensely attracted to Asian women must be racist pedophiles. -- Wzhao553 02:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Simulacrum ? 70% of the Mongolid women (Nesid subrace) aged 30 look younger concerning anthro- pometric traits than 98% of the Nordic women (e.g.Dalofalid subrace) at the age of 12 (!).The paedomorphosis of a majority of Mongolid female adults is greater that than of Western children (!). So one could conclude that paedomorphosis is a substitute for Asiaphilia.Please do not call Asiaphiles racists, as the belief in the Mongolid women's superiority concerning femininity (i.e. this case paedomorphosis) is e.g. supported by Ashley Montagu and"goldsea.com", which photo-anaylzes Asian beauty in detail. 80.138.172.139 11:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yesterday , a vandal with the IP 193... number destroyed the whole talk page shortly after a comment of mine. I think it was infinity0 getting angry due to my comment. Please excuse for your behaviour, because it should not be a web admin's behaviour to do technical sabotage as vandalism in its purest sense.. 80.138.172.139 12:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
You all forget the major point which I will introduce: Millions of Western males have been rejected and kicked in the ass by racially Europid virago females due to their "uglyness","poverty" or Weltanschauung after years of struggle. Then the men turned to the Mongolid women with statistically overwhelming mutual satisfaction.Pedophilia does not play a major part in it.Western viragos behavior is a hubris which must be eliminated.One way is their self-exclusion from reproduction via the Asian fetish racially softening future females.So , the Asian fetish is very healthy race politics which must be supported by all means.When America has to withdraw from Europe in 30 years, there will be a Northern Europid-Mongolid master race dominating the world as in Harvard even today. I invite again everybody to join me in building a new Shangri-La in the wikipedia. 80.138.172.139 12:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence to back these claims up? Stop trying to force your personal opinions into wikipedia. Infinity0 talk 13:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This whole article is nothing more than an anonymous contributor's attempt to use wikipedia to propogate a pet theory of his. He cites published sources, some by people who are considered at best marginal minorities in their field, usually drawing on out-dated research and clinging to theories and models long rejected by their colleagues. Moreover, the anonymous user strings together these references to create his own argument, which is a violation of NOR. He originally created an article dedicated to his pet theory. It was eventually proposed for deletion and was then deleted. Now he is using this article to un-do a very recent deletion of his crank theory, see [33] Slrubenstein | Talk 14:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Assistance professor Steve Rubenstein (Athens,Ohio), author of the previous comment, has been alleged to be the leader of a leftist cabal in the "wikipedia" of at least 10 people , see e.g. webadmin's "user:silsor"'s (Mr.Bonham's) page who has himself nothing to do with those allegations, but considered them to be worth reporting.Mr.Rubenstein, as numerous others can testify, is trying to ban the virago/Asian fetish concept totally.As a Boasian scientist (see his publications and statements) he is part of a quite doubtful scientific tradition (see e.g. Kevin MacDonald,The Culture of Critique,2002).Now, Mr. Rubenstein has escalated the manipulation as he even refuses to tolerate to report the virago /Asian fetish concept as a major concept which has been contained in the world-famous Martin-Saller -Knußmann manual since 1914.No other Boasian dared to deny this concept. E.g. the very influential Meyer's Konversationslexikon 1888 under the name "Mannweib" featured it (digitalized online ).There is an overwhelming amount of evidence.- That denial is comparable to denying other concepts or events , such as the Holocaust or the Nazi racialist concepts, and is aiming at similar goals as Sheridan Prasso does (being herself a virago) : to undermine the respectability of decent Europeans. 80.138.172.139 19:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Get intelligent. 80.138.158.108 03:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I have informed several conform admins (or do you think we have no sleepers in the wikipedia ?) about the insult calling me a "loser" by infinity0 on the "anti-relativity" talk page. 80.138.172.139 23:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
"...However, it remains undisputed that differences between races exist, even beyond simple appearences. Interestingly enough, there appears to be a sub-population of non-Asian, typically Caucasian, women with a fetish for Asian men. However, this is more pronounced in Central and Eastern Europe, and less so in North America. In Canada and the UK, there seems to have been a shift over the last decade for Caucasian men to fetishize South Asian women as opposed to East Asian women. This is prevalent in the Canadian media, where East Asian women are no longer the dominant "non-white" females portrayed in the Canadian media. In the UK, the presence of South Asian female anchors has been the norm for decades. In Canadian television news stations, virtually all of the female anchors of East Asian descent, who were somewhat numerous a decade ago, have been completely replaced by female anchors of South Asian descent."
Maybe even the masculine men are getting more feminine (worked on by feminism) and get more interested in the somewhat harder Indid women according to Hartmann's theory.Or those people who own the media want to divert from the Eastern Asian women due to political reasons as part of an east-west shift back to the Nordid walkyries. 80.138.158.108 01:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
This whole section needs to be removed, and I did so. "while the Nordic race is a typical masculine one": what is this supposed to mean? I am new to editing here and sorry if I broke any rules deleting this whole section, but nothing was worth keeping.
As I suggested that I would earlier, I tried to take a stab at a new definition for Asian fetish according to the discussion so far. Key points:
Those are all the notes that I have. Let's see some comments. -- Wzhao553 07:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, there have been repeated calls from many, many users -- of all POV's -- for a sharp distinction made between "Asian attraction" and "Asian fetish" at the very beginning of the article. It seems that most people don't want "fetishism" to cover "innocuous attraction," but instead to be defined as something "bad." (Of course, as I said earlier, Asian fetish shouldn't be considered deviant behavior, so how "bad" is the real matter of controversy.) So it seems "fetishism" should stay closer to a qualified form of "obsession" than to "attraction."
Actually, for the record, the most radical POV would be that Asian fetish refers to a situation where a white male can obtain sexual gratification from all and only Asian females, i.e., any Asian will do, but only Asians will do. A little less radical would be to say that Asian fetish means that any Asian will do, but not necessarily only Asians. Another step down is what I've suggested, only Asians will do, but not necessarily any Asian.
Also, it's a valid point that the term is often used humorously and not seriously, but that's probably better placed in the discussion section. As an analogue, "nigger" can also often used humorously, but one wouldn't dream of including that in its definition. Given the number of comparisons that have been made between "Asian fetish" and "nigger," it's important to keep that in mind. -- Wzhao553 22:13, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Another bit of expansion on terminology for the top of the article. -- Wzhao553 23:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to embed a couple of pictures into the article. Is this possible? Can I use standard html code to do this? For example, on the Asian Manhood section of the article, I'd like to have this cartoon displayed right beneath it that I think humorously demonstrates the point that section is trying to make:
http://www.imdiversity.com/Villages/Asian/Secret_Asian_Man/strips/SAMHollywoodThanks2.asp
I'm sure the other sections could be visually improved with some appropriate pictures as well that would serve as a visual confirmation of the concepts discussed in the article. OneViewHere 21:20, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
That's a really good idea. I moved "Model minority myth" to its own article, because after thinking about it for quite a while, I could not for the life of me figure out how it was related to Asian fetish. -- Wzhao553 05:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/09/MNGM2GKMFT43.DTL
Sounds to me like another prime example that should be included under the "social consequences" section. OneViewHere 22:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Ahh, nevermind, I see that the original article already references this incident. It is an updated account of the sentencing though.... OneViewHere 22:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Done. Also removed text of article to save some space. -- Wzhao553 04:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
"There are serious claims that Asian women (e.g. belonging to the Nesid race from the Philippines)are the most pedomorphous of the about 40 races, i.e. more childlike both in physique and in character (e.g. stated in the Knußmann anthropological manual, 4. rev.ed. 1996,Fischer Verlag, Stuttgart).As very masculine men are said to be attracted by very feminine women this could explain some Caucasian men's asiaphilia."
This is actually very interesting material. However, I don't understand why this would explain some Caucasian men's Asiaphilia. If anything, it would seem to provide a possible link between Asian fetish and pedophilia, and an explanation for the popularity of the Phillipines as a sex tourism destination. -- Wzhao553 04:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Once again in easy English: there are more masculine and more feminine races (e.g. Knußmann- manual 1996);Asian Palaemongolids are the most pedomorphous :Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual since 1914, setting the world standard ,John Randal Baker , "Race",Oxford University Press 1974, for racial pedomorphosis including brain morphology of the Mongoliform Sanids, Egon Freiherr v. Eickstedt Rassenkunde 1934 etc. , all the major works, take what you want, I am preparing a comprehensive bibliography for the Mongolids' racial pedomorphosis comprising several hundreds of titles then you have thousands of pages to read only dealing with the Mongolids' racial pedomorphosis .That these works are not on the net or in controlled bibliographies does niot mean anything. Denying the obvious is ridiculous. Masculine men are attracted to feminine women, feminine men are attracted to masculine women (Knußmann manual, e.g. www.femininebeauty.info.com):The homosexual dominance in the model business e.g. additionally supported the virago ideal being the ideal in general in the West now having malign consequences. Asian Mongolid women in contrast are the most feminine because there is a scale from hard to weak or from feminine-pedomorphous to masculine concerning the facial features which are the most important:the most extreme viragos looking nearly like men are unattracive to masculine Nordids , but the most extreme Asian women with small breasts are 1000 times more appealing to masculine Nordids and vice versa. The indeed existing racial schedule that members of one race favour the looks of his kin is secondary. The future will show that femininity - masculinity is the key in marriage and its balance of power. One even has to say it is a universal important law of history , too.This is the dilemma of the White suprematists nitwits who have the deadly ideal of the Nordid women.Deadly because these viragos are unappropriate to them , Europe will perish , Asia will live. But why on earth did nature do these things ? Because nature is only interested in the survival of the race /species , not in harmonious masculine men - feminine women relationships. In a historic context one has to state that Europe failed because Hitler didn't develop the atomic bomb and the masculine racial virago character of Nordid/Europid women making them extremely prone to the feminist biolgical suicide. I have seen the European tragedy for more than 70 years now with my own eyes.Please don't call me Nazi as I have never been a party member or had affiliation to the regime's racism, a racism which I criticized in 1938 in a personal 48 pages-long sophisticated letter to Heinrich Himmler who was like me very much interested in Asian affairs and peoples.Maybe you know his enthusiasm for Shamballah , a mysterious legendary ancient kingdom in Asia. Probably partly due to my belonging to the Prussian aristocracy with exceptional merits for German science for centuries, obviously partly due to my exceptional knowledge he wrote a acknowledging 10 pages letter back to me. These letters have never been published, but will be. I informed Himmler about the inconsistencies of the National Socialist racialist worldview concerning the Jewish people and the Asians in particular. I think n o other anthropologist or man has dared this in such a direct and scientifically elaborate way during this terror regime.I consider this a maximum effort of a single person in opposing the holocaust others would have been probably killed for, but not me. I can clearly prove that Himmler used four historic details which he only could have got to know through this letter in later writings. When I wrote my nearly deadly letter to Himmler, the Allies did appeasement and later on , they let Auschwitz happen. As I have said before I dislike Hitler,I dislike Himmler, I dislike Egon von Eickstedt , I dislike Kevin MacDonald, I dislike Richard Lynn, I dislike Jean Philippe Rushton and especially David Irving, the idiot.They are no philanthropists.But their works are essentially right (except Irving, the idiot)and partly even unique despite of their faults.And what unique new scientific knowledge could you get from me if you only would listen without prejudice. Yes, you can flush everything down the data toilet, but could you wait a bit and think about it properly. Have you ever wondered why there are no German geniuses after 1950 but hundreds before due to their talent and genes as even Steven Jay Gould admits ? Because what they write or do is flushed down the toilet after World War II being an incredible loss to science.The secret of the universe has been detected by a German genius. Thomas Balwin and "Oxford Bede Rundle"have not detected it. A German man I know personally know has discovered it. Is it arrogant to say that I know someone who is not known to the public having the genius of Aristotle ? Do you want to know why there is something rather than nothing , the most difficult question in the world? You certainly will not hear it from someone else in your lifetime , because a l l others since 1000 B. C. could not cope with the dilemma of the "prima causa" and the "nihil privativum". You want really to know t h e secret of the world American scientists are drooling after ?Incredible stuff ? Why do you know ?
Okay, Martin-Saller-Knußmann is available in all major American libraries (www.worldcatlibraries.org).There are the crucial statements e.g. in the 1996 edition that there are more masculine and more feminine (Palaemongolids ) races.If you don't understand German start with Baker on racial pedomorphosis of the Mongoliform Sanids whose pedomorphosis is due to their Mongoliformness because their are a distinct group from the Negrids.Baker chose them because of their Mongoliformness, pedomorphosis and their extreme primitive culture. Recent studies confirm the childlikeness of them who can be diverted easily having a permanent sanguine happiness (see works of e.g. Knußmann pupils). Unfortunately , Boasianism denies these findings due to multiculturalists ideology. But I have some hope that you ,Wzhao 553, will agree to me after reading Baker and some google translation supported German sentences from Martin-Saller-Knußmann, setting the world standard since 1914.There you can find, too , that according to numerous studies masculine men are attracted to feminine women and the line from childlike-feminine humans to masculine humans according to e.g.Max Hartmann's three laws of sexuality. This manual was one of the highest authorities in the English-speaking world, too. I know Canadian professors personally who taught biology according to this handbook complaining that it was marginalized by Jewish Boasian anthropologists.The relative lack of information on the net is due to this marginalization, too. Classical anthropology deciphering Asiaphilia ?
There have been anthropolgical claims since the beginnings of anthropology that the Asian races and especially the Nesid race from the Philippines and Indonesia are the most pedomorphous of the about 40 races, i.e. more childlike both in physique and in character (e.g. stated in the Martin-Saller-Knußmann anthropological manual,setting the world standard since 1914,unparalleled in the Anglo-American world, 4. rev.ed. 1996,Fischer Verlag, Stuttgart).As very masculine men are attracted by very feminine women (cf. Max Hartmann's world-famous and widely accepted three laws of sexuality concerning e.g. the attraction of feminine men by masculine women),this could explain Caucasian men's potential Asiaphilia. Caucasians or Europids have relatively masculine features and are prone to Asiaphilia according to this explanation. It can be assumed that the misandrous feminism in the West and the masculine physical and psychical character of Western viragos will surely fuel Asiaphilia in the foreseeable future.
Thank you, Wzhao553.Correct.Additionally, "goldsea.com" for Asian female beauty superior to European women, "www.femininebeauty.info" for racial masculinity of Western virago idols and their affiliation to homosexual men
It is me being a German professor of anthropology who introduced this.And I want to thank Wzhao533 again that he supports my valuable contributions. He wrote down the latest editions of the works I mean correctly. So please stop to label my contribution "vandalism". "Vandals" are people who destroy, and not ones contributing valuable material. Remember that my four valuable contributions to the article "anthropology" made it the unbiased first-class article that it is now.
The at least 3500 years old concept of the anthropological virago is notoriously ignored by due to leftist political reasons obviously. From the masculine "salzikrum" women in the Babylonian Codex Hammurapi (1700 B.C.(!))up to Knußmann's "Lehrbuch der vergleichenden Anthropologie und Humangenetik" (1996)it has been an important concept as written above. An anthropological virago is a woman with both a physical and psychical masculine disposition (cf. Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual, 1996,the only recent manual for biological anthropology).The about 40 human races are more or less masculine (cf. cited manual). The feminine Mongolids (especially the Nesid race of Indonesia and the Philippines) and the masculine Europids (especially Nordid race) are the extremes. The high percentage of viragines in the West has been a critical factor for the success of feminists movements.It is doubtful whether feminism would have ever developed outside the West where it is nearly invisible because there is no orthogenesis (cf.wikipedia article "orthogenesis").It has been suggested by J.Ph. Rushton and others that Negrids have less pedomorphous traits being more masculine than e.g. Europids. This view is in contrast to Count de Gobineau's view of Negrids as a feminine race. In spite of several characteristics of the Negrids which can be classified as masculine (e.g. widespread athleticism due to selection for physical combat fitness, masculine skull traits), there are others which are clearly feminine (energetically lower choleric character in contrast to energetically higher melancholic character; this extraversion makes Negrids statistically more unfit for intellectual work in comparison to introverts (cf. cited manual for the extroverts' failing in intellectual occupation).Additionally, there is a lower Negrid average IQ of 70 (cf.Richard Lynn, "IQ and the Wealth of Nations").
Response to One(leftist)ViewHere: The worst sort of leftist fashism is to destroy the West as described by Kevin MacDonald.This is your leftist masterpiece of the 20th and the 21th century!You can be proud of it. No normal East Asian and no normal Chinese would doubt the peculiarities of the Chinese Sinid Han race e.g.The page "Goldsea.com"is written by Asians, they are proud of the superior feminine racial traits of their women.Watch it!Wake up!The highest anthropological authorities claimed it!I gave you enough information to verify the correctness of it all(Martin-Saller-Knußmann, John Randal Baker, Freiherr Egon v. Eickstedt,Ashley-Montagu(even this Jewish Boasian) and hundred else .Learn German and get rid of your false destructive leftist bias! You can manipulate the world, but not the truth!Give up!
"Vergleichende Biologie des Menschen: Lehrbuch der Anthropologie und Humangenetik,1996,Gustav-Fischer-Verlag,Stuttgart." Please don't take Mr. Osborne's (a musician !)criticism page as he is an anthropological lay and cites from different books from Knußmann.The quote about frustration and pelvis width cannot be found in this manual !and doesn't recognize that Knußmann hasn't created new "evil" knowledge, but has analyzed the recent literature and again has drawn the same conclusion as Rudolf Martin and Karl Saller setting the world standard since 1914.
Hartmann has been explicitly applied to humans, too (see Knußmann 1996). 1.law: there are two sexes (bipolarity) 2.law: there is a continuum between the two sexes 3.law: every individual human has a special (e.g.hormone induced) position on this continuum Statistically "feminity" seeks "masculinity" to mate, less masculine men seek less feminine women (viragos).The male instinct is to intrude the female, the female one is to be intruded; the more e.g. masculine a woman is (including racial feminity-pedomorphosis) the less she is feeling pleasure to be intruded or dominated by a male (e.g. statistically less heterosexual Nordid Western viragos supporting feminism as an ideology of virago masculinization).
Hello, this is the German anthropology professor.Wzhao553,I did some minor corrections so that the section is now 100% scientifically correct. Now we should eliminate the bias presenting the European partners as "sickos" in this leftist propaganda article.
No, you have only general unsupported stuff.You have the burden to prove it. I deleted it, because the whole anthropology section shows scientifically clearly that it is anti-interracial propaganda.The gettoization of unloved information to new articles is no solution.There are articles which are much longer, your wish to gettoize unloved information is a matter of taste, but not necessary.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.138.181.226 ( talk • contribs) 20:17, 22 January 2006.
I've made some more changes to streamline the rhetoric, trying my best to simplify but not alter the underlying meaning. In general I would agree with you, however, I believe that once we replace the uncited information with cited material, we can then begin removing all the irrelevant and anecdotal information from the article, only keeping what is most important. -- Wzhao553 20:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
And I will produce some scholarly and anthropological well-supported articles by the highest authorities that this is leftist.One could label you a Nazi because you state that a majority of those interracial couples have sick relationships while anthropology and sociology says the contrary. As the West does not use eugenics the southeastern women are e.g. much less genetically sick and neurotic as Western viragos not to say anything about their masculine leftist feminist terror.Have a short look at the polemic, but essentially right page www.nomarriage.com.The Western viragos are the "sickos".For you, the modern "Jews" are the interracial couples.You perpetuate the "yellow peril" panic.You are nothing but a modern Dr. Mengele which I had the unwanted "honour" to meet during my time in the Ahnenerbe.This was a statement by the German anthropology professor. 80.138.189.79 12:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Strong POV in this article and apparently very much a vehicle for disseminating the POV missions of AsianGuy.com and ModelMinority.com. Does this article really feel encyclopedic to anyone here? Strange. -- AStanhope 04:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Ashley Montagu obviously means Mongoloid in the Eickstedtian sense which is the most precise: Mongolid : Asian races; Mongoloid : similar to the Asian races ; Mongoliform : having some characteristic traits of the Asian races
Yes, it is true that there is a lot of superfluous and unverified information in this article that does not make it encyclopedic. The Model Minority and Yellow Peril sections don't actually have anything to do with Asian fetish, except in the broader context of both being Asian American related issues. The negative stereotypes section is loosely associated with Asian fetish, in the sense that (negative) sexual stereotypes may be considered the alleged source of fetishism, but the section itself does not implicitly state this. Plus, while the Platonist division of stereotypes into physical, emotional and cultural levels seemed very cute at the time, I was really just making up stuff then, and I think that after several protracted edit wars, the Negative stereotypes section really serves no purpose anymore.
In my personal informed opinion, the best way to fix this is to remove the yellow peril and model minority sections, and then merge the Asian American manhood and Physical stereotypes section into a subsection, which, along with the Asian American womanhood subsection, would belong under a section entitled Sexuality and stereotypes. The Yellow peril and Model Minority stereotypes would then be mentioned in passing in the introduction to this section, which would then move on to the stereotypes that are of importance to Asian fetish.
ThreeAnswers, let me know what you think of this. I'll go ahead and make the changes if other people agree. -- Wzhao553 04:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I've made the first round of revisions, and condensed whatever I thought possible. I've also moved the references up to the section. I'd rather not combine references to different sections as they're coming into place, since that will easily lead to confusion.
I think we're making good progress on this. It's now a matter of supplementing the material here with some additional sources. -- Wzhao553 15:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
If I were writing this article from scratch, it would have come out something like this --
That's a bit rough but I think you can see what I'm getting at. "The Yellow Peril" would discuss changing perceptions of Asian-Americans through history and mention that even the term 'Asian-American' itself is of recent vintage. "Contemporary media portrayal" would be the place to talk about stereotypes and the disparity in portrayals of AM/WF and WM/AF. In "Controversy" I would discuss accusation of reverse racism and double standards.-- ThreeAnswers 01:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The fetish of Asian women as little petite submissive cuties ("Nadeshiko Yamato"being the term for the submissive Asian (Japanese)woman ideal ) has its basic origin in the Asian women's anthropological feminine pedomorphous traits. In contrast to that it is not possible feature Nordic virago valkyries (1,9 m,athletic)as little petite submissive cuties.
Of course it was coined during the war, but it is giving a name to the much older woman ideal which is differing from Europe significantly. It is usual in history that a much older concept is labeled relatively late (here in a time when the behaviour of the women became problematic and should be redirected to tradition).While the social position of women in Europe was relatively high, the position in Islam, Jewry and Eastern Asia was very low. Women have been thought to be "unclean" in many Asian countries and are not allowed to touch Buddhist monks e.g.Undoubtedly the Asian "Nadeshiko Yamato" signifies a femininity and submissiveness which is unique in the world.As it is a metaphorical name for the fetishized women it should be included here ( Nadeshikos are e.g. shown in "The last samurai" or "You only live twice").
Over the past few weeks, this article has developed some serious problems. An anon editor (IP 80.138.xxx.xxx) has systematically been adding highly questionable material to it. At first his stuff was reverted by ThreeAnswers and OneViewHere and there was discussion (above) about including the material. It was noted that this anon has made problem edits on the subject of Virago in both the English and German Wikipedias. The anon has described himself as both a German soldier who "lost two fingers at Stalingrad" and an "anthropology professor." If you think about it for a minute, he cannot be both. An examination of his sources reveals that the material he keeps adding to the articles is about equally valid. Sources he regularly uses, such as R. Knussmann and v. Eickstedt are not acceptable references. They both present theories of race that have not gained acceptance in anthropology. While widely adopted by white supremacists, they are not suitable for an encyclopedia.
The article is in need of major repairs. It now has two reference sections in the middle and several questionable sections. I will proceed to edit it and hope to get some cooperation from the regular editors. Oh, yes, and please, lets all try to keep in mind the dictum: Don't feed the trolls! Sunray 18:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
You are a Jew and a helper of "Steve" as you call Mr.Rubenstein. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.138.174.234 ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC).
Martin, Saller and Knußmann are all listed as
Berühmte Anthropologen in the Anthropologie article. There is a 1990 biography entitled Der Anthropologe Rudolf Martin. John Baker Randal was a professor at Oxford. To dismiss these authors as questionable would be akin to claiming that Aristotle is a fraud because parts of his Physics have been invalidated. It would be incorrect to say that the sources present theories of race which have not gained acceptance in anthropology; rather, they are theories which have either been discredited as pseudoscience or have otherwise fallen out of favor among modern anthropologists. Nevertheless, since they are relevant to the historical context of the article, they should be included in their proper context, and so long as sufficient counterarguments from modern anthropologists are provided afterwards.
So long as the article both accurately reflects and does not assert the truth of Knußmann's work, it should be an acceptable reference for the section. However, I do agree that the anthropological material should be constrained to the anthropology section, and should not appear in any sections after that, as this material is not relevant outside of so-called classical anthropology. -- Wzhao553 23:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, Knußmann was the institute director for human biology at the University of Hamburg. He was an editor of the Journal of Comparative Human Biology from 1990 to 1998. Those fall well within the realm of anthropology. As you must be well aware, I have already said at least three times in this very talk page that the article should include counterarguments from modern anthropologists in order to maintain NPOV. It's possible, however, that you may be misunderstanding the idea of original research. The 1914 manual by Martin and Saller was considered authoritative in their day. Knußmann used his 1996 book as teaching material at the University of Hamburg (which caused a student protest, in fact). There is no dispute that the manual contains a wealth of valid physical anthropological information. Simply put, the POV nature of the section at present is itself quite correctable and is not grounds for deletion.
Moreover, those of us familiar with postcolonial studies will understand the importance of including late 19th and early 20th century anthropological research within the historical context of the fetishism of the Other in Western Europe. If you wish to invite an actual anthropologist like Rubenstein to revise any inaccuracies and to help provide NPOV, then I would of course be happy; however, if you wish to dispute the fact that anthropological studies played a role in the construction of stereotypes of Asians, then you would need to provide references to back that claim. -- Wzhao553 01:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Why do we talk about "Asian Americans" when we really seem to be referring to "Asians"? In particular, the sections "Asian American womanhood" and "Asian American manhood" seem mislabeled. Or should we just rename the article "Asian American fetish"? - Will Beback 21:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
actually i have read a book in Chinese (you know, like women talk over like marriage and man and so on),when talking about one of her Taiwanese friend at the ending edge of marriable age, said she married those non-Asian ambassador in Beijing within a month. She said that all of those ambassador's wife have auite a lot of Chinese, from like Asia or North America, are usually really catty and so on..... And those ambassadir is easily fooled by them -_-'||| I am full Asian, so basically I dont know wut to say...
All detailed references for the "Biological anthropology" section have just been edited. Any questions left ?
Sunray, you sound like a very reasonable person so far. However, I'm not exactly sure what it is that you want. If you were to read through, say, this article harshly summarizing Knußmann's Lehrbuch, you will find that the anonymous editor has done a fairly good job at presenting what Knußmann has to say accurately enough. You wanted direct quotations, you have been provided with direct quotations. Furthermore, we have agreed that there is a lack of alternate points of view, but I expected that you must be aware that according to the deletion policy, POV issues are not problems that require deletion.
Now, I can cite sources on cultural relativism that present a different point of view and ignore Knußmann's type of research and I can cite sources like Wissenschaftlicher Rassismus which directly criticizes Knußmann; or I can sit here and argue with you over whether or not we should delete this section; but I simply do not have the time or effort to do both. If your goal is to get this material off the internet at all costs, then I can't say that I would agree with you, but if you do want to help improve this article by expanding on the section and helping to provide a more balanced POV, then you must know that I have already given you my support in that endeavor. -- Wzhao553 18:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree to Wzhoa553 completely.Additionally, there are many mistakes in this article which I will present here in detail. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.138.134.141 ( talk • contribs) 18:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC) I will never stop to resist this Boasian manipulation of science. 80.138.134.141 19:06, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
It is all too obvious why the Rubenstein group does that censoring.They want to finish the work of their "scientific" forefathers. 80.138.134.141 00:43, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
As much as this is a contentious issue about what many believe to be a racist phenomenon personal attacks are proscribed by Wikipedia policy. The history of this talk page shows a lot of people making personal attacks rather and debating the issue rather than assuming good faith and debating how to make it a better article. Let's avoid accusations of racism or anything else.-- ThreeAnswers 20:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Wzhao533. For our pertinent and excellent anthropology section, I am now called a "wackjob" and a "racist" by the Rubenstein group again. Those about 20 people described on silsor's page see now that they cannot control the wikipedia any more because more and more people stop to tolerate their censorship.To put it in a greater context, some "groups" have a vital interest in the manipulation of the media which is c r u c i a l for their own survival. 80.138.193.187 21:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I have decided today (on 30th of January 2006) to take over the about 50 most important strategic articles in the wikipedia and to break the censorship on my own. Others are heartly welcomed to join me if their time allows it. From now on will dedicate 14 hours a day to reach this goal. Among the strategic articles is e.g. "relativity theory" where I will contribute unique critical material."Atonal music" and "Ludwig van Beethoven" have just been edited by me. It will take the Rubenstein group now many experts in many fields including some translators for German, French and numerous other languages to cope with this new situation. 80.138.193.187 21:44, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Wzhoa533.Now they blame it on the "silly algae".They don't want to read about Hartmann's world famous laws or read at least a Cheng abstract. What was just the name of the bird ignoring everything by putting his head in the sand ? 80.138.193.187 22:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Push the search button for "silsor" then you can see on administrator Mr.Bonham's page from Toronto (who has nothing to do with the allegations personally) the quotes from others about the "cabal" which Bonham wants to present as ridiculous obviously. I can confirm these allegations essentially by my own experiences and observations. 80.138.193.187 23:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
That's it. And if you google "jews control wikipedia" you find certainly a wiki talk page (deleted in the meantime but not on google?) of a certain user:silsor where you can read the allegations about Rubenstein and 15 others. Strangely enough there were some impostors (!) of silsor as I have seen. 80.138.193.187 23:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Very briefly and without lengthy justifications. The Neomarxist, postcolonialist view of "Asian fetishism" is that it is the process by which Asians are invested with stereotypes such as submissiveness, innocence, femininity, etc. In short, to fetishize is to trivialize and stereotype. To understand Asian fetishism is to understand (sexual) stereotypes of Asians. So we need to understand where the stereotypes come from. One proposal is as follows:
We include work such as Knußmann's because it reflects folk anthropology. For example, if we were to go out and ask the first 100 people we meet whether they think that
then we would see that Knußmann's theory resonates well with folk anthropology. There exists convincing evidence (which I will not provide here) that people do think like this.
Thus, according to this view, a discussion of folk and physical anthropology necessarily precedes discussion of stereotypes, which themselves are at the core of fetishism. This is why I placed the anthropology section above the stereotypes section. Also, note that I'm assuming here that the article has a terminology section which reflects postcolonialist definitions. Nevertheless, it is correct to state that the Stereotypes section should be the centerpiece of this entry. -- Wzhao553 23:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
However, in the past there were very very violent episodes in Asian history. What has resulted in the present day is simply a society that is built for such. Heaven's knight 05:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The real explanation is simple. It is indeed racism. Racism operating, even here (wink, wink). One should use the truest information and the best minds, not merely the wank of lonely dorky racists. Heaven's knight 05:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ironically,Tookie shot some Asians. 80.138.193.187 00:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Hallo, HerrPhilipp,danke für das große Lob. Ich habe mich auf deiner Page gerade gemeldet.
80.138.193.187
00:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but we can't assert the truth or falsity of biological differences contributing to marriage disparity, since that's just one (some might say, unabashedly racist) view among many. As we all know, according to the cultural relativists (aka mainstream anthropology), biological differences don't matter. As for me, I'm just puzzled as to why people here think that this line of research has no followers; and as for Sailer, he's no anthropologist, but it wouldn't hurt to include his now-infamous article in the external links. -- Wzhao553 00:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if Steve Sailor's article is appropriate, considering it is mere wank. The contributions of certain suspect Germans shall be left out as well; this is not a showcase for racist theories. - Heaven's knight 01:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
There are many mediocre and low self esteem people to be found in mainstream white american society. there are an obvious even greater many who, although they may be nice and good people, are confused as to the functioning of the world and their place in society. what do men/women want, etc. The truth of things shall be left to the best and hopefully the objective too, hehe, not to whoever can string together a bunch of fancy words, spin up a nice fancy web of theory, especially not those who are admittedly mediocre and obviously ill intentioned.
Why trust nerds and rejects with explaining social phenomena? - Heaven's knight 01:26, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Let's be honest, people truly in the know are not watching with angst from the sidelines, they are not biding all their time trying to construct a fairytale of how wonderful people of their skin color supposedly are so that they themselves can try to ride coattails, live vicariously through these magical gods they have created. To deny the operation of racism in American society is foolish. There are a great many good and decent people, there are a few cool and badass people, and there are the obvious dorky newb racists, of course not only in America. We do not need to give them a voice; after all, it obviously does them no good, and they only seek to do harm. Perhaps more later - Heaven's knight 01:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmm.. it is not so much attacking interracial couples as it is against racism. I should know, I myself experienced racism growing up, and it affected me tremendously. No doubt this would bring joy to some racists. I am also an extremely sexy individual, among other things, so it gives me an appropriate perspective, beyond that of a good heart, lol, (which many people to their credit have but not enough people)to see the truth. Dorky white racists say I am ugly, but sadly, it is only they. Heaven's knight 05:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Wzhao553 said: "We include work such as Knußmann's because it reflects folk anthropology." This sort of generalization is problematic. Knaussman's work is marginal because it is not supported by folk anthropology (which, by the way is a branch of social anthropology, not physical anthropology). While there are many studies on racial prejudice between cultures, Asian fetishism goes against the very strong tendency in human societies to fear and mistrust people from other cultures That is why Knussman's work must be handled with caution. It is very hard to bring it into the article without doing original research. Sunray 16:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The mate seeking according to the 36 races' "Rassenschablonen" (prefering mates from own race) is not as biologically powerful as the female -male heteroracial attraction (Knußmann).Everything has been criticized by now, but nothing scientifically pertinent. 80.138.168.54 20:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
As biological explanation -- Mr Phil 16:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The things which disturbed the moderators on the German site was some weird stuff the other German user who only uses his IP address posted on my discussion page yesterday evening, so talk to him if you have a problem with what he wrote. I have already asked him not to post any more controversial stuff on my user page, if you look at my discussion page.
--
Mr Phil
19:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Higher levels of testosterone in men produce more masculine physiques and more aggressive personalities, which in turn lead to higher sexual attractiveness for women.
[4]
The source given does not match the claim. Infinity0 talk 20:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Black men, do you have more Asian men having sex with Black women or Black men with Asian women? Fits right into the picture. Most of the research articles directly compare Whites with Asians, not Whites to other Whites. -- Mr Phil 22:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Let's be honest, being supported by Steve Sailor means that it is nothing but bunk. Now as for testosterone levels, they are highly variable with environmental conditioning. To deny environmental conditioning is the mark of the mediocre person, one who believes themself capable of just this much and no more no matter what circumstances would be thrust upon them, one who has proscribed themselves from being the apple of the eye of mainstream society, and perhaps also one who does not wish to see others succeed. Heaven's knight 05:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I want to get back to this Karl fellow who never signs his messages. Please explain why you think that "Jews Control Wikipedia". Also, if you are trying to make an argument that Asian's are "passive" due to their "lower testosterone" and natural tendancies, then do you think other groups....say Blacks, are more violent and aggressive due to their natural tendancies? That is the logical extension of your argument. And if that is the case, please explain how that is not utterly and completely racist. I don't want to see lengthy anthropology dissertation psycho-babble. I want a direct yes or no answer to my questions. OneViewHere 21:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The anthropology section stands for itself. Are there any scientific well-supported objections to it ?Mr Phil, Wzhao533 and me are respectable scholars of medicine, humanities and anthropology and we have given very,very detailed information to you.By the way, the anthropology section is unique on the net as e.g. Mr.Phil's warm comment is a hint for ("fascinating").I will now go on eliminating the bias in the about 50 strategic articles in the English wikipedia on my own. Others are heartly welcome to join me.I have just improved "Ludwig van Beethoven ", "atonal music" and "relativity theory".And it will take the opposing group a lot of experts in different fields including translators to cope with it.I look back on more than 60 years of scientific experience being a member of the Ahnenerbe,too.As I have said above, my intents were always benign to humanity. My opposing the oversimplifying Anti-Asian Nazi racialism in the very dangerous letter to Himmler in 1938 is more than any indivual could have achieved.Given the fact it had changed the plans of Himmler it could have saved the lifes of millions of people. Not too unlikely as Himmler was totally irrational.It was clear to me from the beginning that there is something as individualty. Race is only one constituent of the human, sex and individualty are the two others. Nevertheless, all constituents are very significant.As I share Beethoven's ideals, my vision is a community of all people. But as many scientists and artists have shown us, this is a utopia with only a small chance to be realized. War, fight, rape and greed and average humans determine the human existence.The expeditions to Tibet in 1934,1935 and 1937 in which I took part showed me the attractiveness of the central Sinid women in the Himalaya. Of course, if you google for "Nazi Tibet expedition" you will find that the scientists don't know anything about those mentioned expeditions. Furthermore , I have many files in my archive the NARA would be keen to get. Now, I am a fit, but a very old man. And as the racial model doesn't determine everything, the model that members of the SS or the Ahnenerbe were all gangsters, is not correct. I was called Nazi by you, but I have never been a party member nor did I belong to the Ahnenerbe when it was integrated in the SS. There is never a collective guilt or a simple yes or no, good or bad. As the German Nikolaus von Kues has put it, there is a "coincidentia oppositorum" in everything, one of the deepest thoughts of man. This article is only a preliminary for further edits on the "Holy Grail" and other fascinating topics which could be of much, much value for you. "In diesen heil'gen Hallen kennt man die Rache nicht". As I know that you are young people who have not found their way in life yet, I will see your hostilities as a kind of misunderstanding due to a knowledge gap.Good afternoon, gentlemen. 80.138.168.54 23:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to be rude but I rather doubt you are who you say you are, mr. ww2 dinosaur. Moving on, the fascinations of an individual are not able to be extended to the world, otherwise they would not be treated as fantastical escapes from the regular world. After all, everyone has their own wishes, and there are some that seem mighty strange to others. When explaining the world the truth is the only admissible, not wishful thinking. Not everything can be known right away, how could we presume to explain the entire universe already? we must be comfortable with ambiguity.
Heaven's knight
05:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
All the provided sources were of no relevance to these claims. See history for details. Moved to talk page for further discussion. Infinity0 talk 22:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
This is nothing but bunk. For the truth, one needs a real brain, and one who is objective. There are interpretations here that are not supported by the evidence; instead, everything is setup into a nice fantasy story for racists. The whiny insistence on fact is a nice touch :P. Musculature is hardly a fact, lol, penile size is unknown and imo impossible, testicular volume is unknown and imo impossible, baldness is unknown, life expectancy and perhaps to a lesser extent chronic disease are extremely dependent upon environmental factors. The assumption of negative things, insistence on making it true, willful overlooking of environmental factors, all speak to a troubled mind and wishful thinking. For a white person to fail in white society, that person is a failure indeed. Heaven's knight 05:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
PS I personally have very high testosterone, gigantic balls indeed, however like other asians my facial chest and body hair is not especially pronounced. I can grow goatee like those Qin terracotta statues and burns but not a santa claus beard.. although there are east asians who do, of course they are rare. However, this has not prevent me from and naturally, many East Asians from assuming a masculine body type with well developed musculature, and furthermore, I am supersexy. Racists are fools indeed. Heaven's knight 05:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Every statement is sourced, but I will add more sources over time to further back up every single point. Instead of vandalizing the article, you could rather add more sources for many of the other spurious claims made in this article by previous authors which aren't backed up to a similar degree. -- Mr Phil 23:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, then add some sections at the bottom showing that Asians average the same testosterone levels as other groups or that testosterone has no effects on masculinity, muscularity etc.
All the material IS sourced much more extensively than the rest of the article! If you see specific errors, write a critique at the bottom like is done with other points of criticism as well. -- Mr Phil 01:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
This is unnecessary; testosterone has many variables affecting it. One of true capability will recognize this. Furthermore assuming testosterone is so observable in the population there is no reason to assume that Asians have any less testosterone. This is nothing but mud slinging of a racist from the majority population. From a mediocre person who couldn't make it in their own mainstream society. Heaven's knight 05:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
As the German quotes were explicitly requested by my critics, I edit them again. 80.138.168.54 01:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Today (31st January2006) I have decided to build a new Shangri-La in the English Wikipedia. 80.138.193.56 02:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Having grown up as an Asian American, I have a unique perspective upon both populations and considering that I am unbiased, I will take my observations. White people have no advantage over the Chinese. Remember that when we categorize so broadly, we are dealing with very large diverse populations with great geographical spread Heaven's knight 05:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Testosterone is the male sex hormone, higher levels make you more masculine, more muscular, more aggressive etc. -- Mr Phil 08:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Mr Phil, the sources you give in that section have NO RELEVANCE WHATSOEVER to the claims being made. Stop inserting lies in the article! Infinity0 talk 16:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Try the Steve Sailer article "Is love Colorblind?". Basically higher testosterone levels of Whites leads to an enhanced sex dimorphism of wm-af couples compared to am-wf couples regarding muscularity, aggression etc. For the same reasons you practically don't have any Asian men with Black women.
http://www.isteve.com/IsLoveColorblind.htm
If you consider this to be "original research", which it is not, since all the sources are research done by others, you need to delete the rest of the article as well. Where are your sources that any of the other things claimed in this article contribute to an "Asian fetish" on the part of White males, except for anecdotal evidence? My impression is rather, that you personally don't like the conclusions and you only want this Wikipedia article to feature aspects of the issue you support. Sorry, but Wikipedia is not your personal platform, if that is what you want you need to post at modelminority. -- Mr Phil 19:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
LOL tell that to the white racists. It is not surprising that they would show up here since they are, to a man, mediocre or otherwise feeling that they are not far from failures in life. Heaven's knight 05:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The word "testosterone" does not even appear in that source, you fucking phoney. Infinity0 talk 19:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
From the article:
"Muscularity may most sharply differentiate the races in terms of sexual attractiveness. Women like men who are stronger than they; men like women who are rounder and softer. The ending of segregation in sports has made racial differences in muscularity harder to ignore."
Muscularity is largely determined by testosterone levels. -- Mr Phil 20:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually it's even more determined by culture. Do you work out?? lol Heaven's knight 05:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
And why do you assume that? And what about ALL THE OTHER CLAIMS WHICH YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED SOURCES FOR?? Infinity0 talk 20:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Where are your sources, I'm talking about any kind of systematic studies, not anecdotal evidence, of the other claims made in the article?
--
Mr Phil
20:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I didn't write the rest of the article; check up the provided sources yourself. I checked up all the sources you provided for those claims, and they were completely irrelevant. Also, the crappiness of the rest of an article doesn't justify keeping an even crappier section. Infinity0 talk 20:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Your claims are NOT backed up by your provided sources. If you can find a section that is not backed up by a source, then you can delete it. Infinity0 talk 20:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Instead of always talking in generalizations, why don't you tell me which specific claim is not backed up by a source? -- Mr Phil 20:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Please don't insult Mr Phil.He is totally right according e.g. to the Knußmann manual where it is stated that there are more feminine races (see the anthropology section)and feminity and masculinity are hormone-driven and even influencing the prenatal brain development (see Knußmann,1996,pp.221-335 "Geschlechtertypologie" and remember e.g. Baker's Sanid brain morphology statements).Please excuse for the "fucking phoney" insult,Infinity0.This "German bashing" shows your helplessness. Furthermore,it is not by chance that some Germans oppose some "Americans" here. 80.138.193.56 20:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Like I told you the first time I removed the section, see the page history for the specific reasons on why I removed each source. Infinity0 talk 20:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
All of the claims in your section. I give specific reasons in the edits of their removal - see the history of this page. Infinity0 talk 20:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
You just didn't want to bother searching through history, exposing you as a vandal. Here are all the sources and reaons for removal.
So, Mr Phil, stop bullshitting, and making sockpuppet accounts through anonymous users. Infinity0 talk 21:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I rest my case. Infinity0 talk 20:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Mr Phil, you seem to have nothing constructive to contribute to Wikipedia. Stop wasting people's time. You're pathetic. Infinity0 talk 21:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I have not criticised anything, only pointed out the FACT that all the sources are of NO RELEVANCE. Improve the section on your own computer, then upload it when it's done. We do NOT give readers complete bullshit. Infinity0 talk 21:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Meld dich bitte mal, Herr Phillip auf deiner Seite.Danke. 80.138.193.56 21:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
What's with the section on Pheromones? If, as the poster admits, that pheromones haven't even proved to exist yet, then why mention it in the article? You might as well talk about "Mojo". ie, Hey, black dudes just have more MOJO and rhythm, therefore they get more action!" This article is going in a ridiculous direction and is straying too far from the core topic. OneViewHere 22:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh and also, for Dr Phil or whoever posted a article that appeared in "American Rennaisance" Magazine. That magazine is a white-supremacist magazine. Their readers are anti-immigration, deny the Jewish Holocause ever happened, and believe that Black men have low IQ's. The mere fact that you are reading that magazine pretty much indicts you as a racist. OneViewHere 22:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Your criticism is scientifically impertinent.There are three groups of your "strategies " up to now:
1.insults ( "fucking phooney " (!)to Mr.Phil)2.diversion to other even more controversial matters impertinent to the discussion 3. impertinent connections of holocaust denial etc. to us to present us as impersonified Nazi satans (me)or neo-Nazis (Mr.Phil)("Totschlagsargument",Martin Walser).As I said before, I did more against the holocaust than any single person else (Himmler letter 1938).
80.138.193.56
23:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
There are three groups of your "strategies " up to now: 1.insults ( "fucking phooney " (!)to Mr.Phil)2.diversion to other even more controversial matters impertinent to the discussion 3. impertinent connections of holocaust denial etc. to us to present us as impersonified Nazi satans (me)or neo-Nazis (Mr.Phil)("German bashing","Totschlagsargument",Martin Walser).As I said before, I did more against the holocaust than any single person else (Himmler letter 1938). 80.138.193.56 23:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC).Is this not enough proof of benevolence ? My building a new Shangri-La in the wikipedia is totally independent from your actions ("Don't feed the trolls", a giant underestimation of the progress to come in the next weeks and months. You cannot block free speech.One exceptional person can dominate the whole English wikipedia for the sake of the welfare of all sincere people. 80.138.193.56 23:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Sir, I hope you know that it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to be dominated by one person, no matter how exceptional he may be.-- ThreeAnswers 23:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
If someone's edits are scientifically valuable, for the benefit of all sincere people and if there is an unscientific group manipulating the wikipedia including self-deception, then it would be good if someone benign dominated the wikipedia. Of course, you sit somewhere out there having the best intentions,but is your editing really benign to humanity or does it reflect leftist anti-European and anti-German bias?Some of you will agrree to me when they are older and see the horrible catastrophe the leftists and their sub-groups have brought to the West.You have asked what algae have to do with femininity and viragos (fascinating, isn't it ?). Can you imagine why "right"-chirality is predominant in the cosmos ? Can you imagine why whiny femininity and androgyny is wrong concerning ruling continents ? The anthropolgy section is first class now. The rest is anecdotal common place and should be replaced by better stuff. 80.138.193.56 00:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
For the Himmler letter, see above. 80.138.193.56 00:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)"To punish is easy, to prevent is difficult." (Latin saying).
Willbe back,you have a rather Bolshewist motto on your user page: "All edits not done in goodwill or which are incorrect will be cleaned and liquidated". Do you additionally think, that the editors of such material should be liquidated, too ?Or do you prefer behaviorist correcting methods as the GULAG ? 80.138.193.56 00:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I see a lot of spurrious transitive reasoning going on here. ie, if A = B and C = D, then A must equal D. This is false. example. Dr. Phil is claiming that Asian American's lower crime rate is "proof" of their passiveness. This is faulty logic. There are many reasons why Asian crime rate may be lower:
1. Immigration is self-selective. Only industrious and educated people have the financial means to emmigrate to another country. Income and educational levels directly correspond with crime rates. But as Blacks have according to some authorities a mean IQ of 70 (lynn,IQ and the wealth of nations), race and wealth are corresponding relatively well at the moment. 80.138.192.206 02:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
2. Many Asian criminals prey on their own communities. ie, their victims are Asian. Asian immigrants often do not trust the police and often have a language barrier. Therefore much Asian crime goes unreported. But environmentalists say, too, that the extreme cohesiveness of , e.g. the Sinocentrism, prevents a lot of intra-cultural aggression. 80.138.192.206 02:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
3. The term "Asian" encompasses numerous racial groups, languages, and cultures. This segmentation means that oftentimes Asians are "the only Asian in the area". Being segmented by race, language, and geography is a disincentive for crime. And unlike other European immigrant groups whose language is based on the Latin Romance language and whose apparence can essentially pass for "white", Asian immigrants stand out.
"Mongolid", "Mongoloid " , "Mongoliform "are sufficient Eickstedtian "Trivialnamen" as numerously explained by me before (and in the anthro-section, see Knußmann 1996, too).
80.138.192.206
02:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
So quoting Asian crime statistics really doesn't prove what Dr. Phil is trying to claim. Simplying a complex topic such as crime rates and using it to apply to "Asian Fetishism" is clearly inappropriate. OneViewHere 00:57, 2 February 2006 (UTC). Really ?
But also, let's say the Black crime rates are lower as there is a general uncertainty in crime stats. 80.138.192.206 02:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen, a small suggestion to my critics: relax,get calm and be astonished due to my edits to come.Good evening. 80.138.192.206 02:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
To back up claims of differing average testosterone levels. -- Mr Phil 03:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Added some more sources to physical anthropology too, and some criticisms. -- Wzhao553 03:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Everybody, please do not attempt to delete the Testosterone section anymore. I'll try to write some criticisms by tomorrow evening. -- Wzhao553 06:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Sheridan Prasso is a dolichocranious leptomorph virago, obviously of mainly Jewish descent (Armenoid). She herself is a good example of the correctness of my edits on race and the virago. She competes with males in a male world. She is envious of the Asian femininity,but not for the femininity itself , only for the attention it is paid to by Westerners.She obviously tries to play the woman teacher for the "deviant" European males in revenge, as she only presents them as "sick".Of course, she also has only the best intentions.It is time to re-establish the virago article.The virago article is a logical necessity out of this article (the "antipodes" to the Asian women on the F-M-line)).All others are heartly welcome to help me in building the new Shangri-La in the wikipedia. 80.138.192.206 12:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
There are hundreds of millions of viragines,too, like the virago Jewess Prasso who is envious of the Asian women's impact on many Western males (the basic envy is the penis envy of the virago, not of the woman as Freud misinterpreted that).It is time to re-establish the virago article as a direct consequence of this article.Everybody is invited to join me .
80.138.192.206
20:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Who has created and improved civilization ? Western Europid men.Of the 1000 greatest inventions, ca. 990 were made by Europids.And the leftists deny the comparability of culture at all and the uniqueness of their creators and improvers. But why don't they all go back to the Savannah and dismiss computers and mobile phones and TVs? My improving this article is such a cultural improving in a hostile environment.Of course,the article can get much better , but it is scientifically seen the best stuff on the whole net in the moment. 80.138.192.206 20:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
-- 80.77.243.36 21:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
No, of course not, only interlinear commenting, I forgot to sign. We all know that you have not such an opinion. 80.138.192.206 20:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
This statement is patently false:
"The higher average life expectancies of women and East Asians, fewer incidences of prostate cancer and coronary heart disease among East Asians"
Asian heart disease ranges from 20-27% in the article that Dr. Phil linked to. This range mirrors the rate of heart disease among whites. It's ridiculous to point to this as an indication of testosterone levels anways, because the single biggest factor in heart disease is DIET. The American white diet is much higher in fat than a typical Asian diet. And there have been studies that have shown that as 2nd and 3rd generation Asians assimilate into American culture, their rates of heart disease have risen as they eat more and more American food. Also, heart disease rates can be directly correlated with income levels. For example: Poor black americans who have a poor diet and can only afford to eat cheap fast food are naturally going to have higher rates of heart disease. Dr. Phil's link doesn't support his contentions and should be removed. OneViewHere 20:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
It is obvious Mr_Phil is pushing his own agenda to have his own opinions place on this wikipedia article. None of the sources he provides have any relevance whatsoever to the claims being made; neither are the claims linked logically to the main theory. He has only edited this article, leading me to believe he has a special interest in vandalising it. Furthermore, he refuses to even attempt to defend himself, yet repeatedly adds these erroneous claims and irrelevant sources into the article, without discussion.
Infinity0 talk 23:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
They are not critiques. They are statements of fact that these sources, and therefore the WHOLE SECTION is bogus. Also, wikipedia does not endorse use of proxies. Infinity0 talk 00:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
See Baker for Negrid flesh penis (big when flaccid, smaller when erect compared to Europeans). See J. Ph. Rushton for the testosterone theory support.The testosterone is even the consequence of the pedomorphosis ,not the cause:positive selection for paedomorphosis (e.g.small body and epicanthic fold as adaptations to cold climate) 80.138.192.206 00:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC) Mr. Phil is totally right in insisting on the hormones, he has my full support. 80.138.192.206 00:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Has no relevance to this article. Also, Mr_Phil, stop logging on through anonymous IPs and pretending it's someone else. Infinity0 talk 00:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
My argument is against the entire section, not its content. The section is unsourced and original research. Infinity0 talk 00:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This article has been protected to stop a reversion war. Please see the dispute resolution process; if you disagree with the protection of this article, please contact me or see Requests for page protection. Note that disagreement amongst editors is the reason the article is protected, and should not be used as an argument for unprotection. // Pathoschild ( admin / talk) 00:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Google search gives 705 results. This person is not significant enough for an encyclopedia. I suggest all references to him are removed. Infinity0 talk 00:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC) Ah, you only count matches, but don't read them. 80.138.192.206 01:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)The google search for e.g. "sex" has millions of matches , but you will soon notice that there are less than 1000 real matches (!). So what about counting matches ? Is 706 enough - or 720 ? Your arguments get more and more silly showing your helplessness. 80.138.192.206 01:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Good idea. 80.138.192.206 01:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The testosterone and anthropology parts are the only parts written by the user Dr. Phil and you, the German professor who has stated in this discussion forum that "Jews control Wikipedia", that women fighting for equal rights are "whiny feminists", and that "White men are responsible for most of the important inventions in the world". Dr. Phil refuses to addresses the obvious claim that his links have absolutely nothing to do with testosterone, and the issue of testosterone itself has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this article. I think it's pretty clear what your motivations are.
143.127.3.10
01:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Phil. and me created a respectable anthropology section. I have not heard any pertinent counter-arguments yet.
Did the world-famous Jewish Boasian Ashley Montagu (author of the UN declaration on race !)err when he called Mongoloids neotenous making them "delicately beautiful "? Were Max Hartmann's world-famous laws wrong ? Why does Knußmann, the former president (!)of the German Scientific Society (Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft,internationally respected no.1 organization in Germany, expert in the John F. Kennedy murder (!))and doyen of the German anthropology , repeat these claims in his unique manual 1996 ? Do you not think that Knußmann has mentally suffered enough from the unsubstantiated attacks on him by leftists ? Don't you think it is incredible that juvenile leftists can block a whole branch of science (e.g. Asta- Hamburg ) and now justice must be done to him by us all? 80.138.192.206 01:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
For four years, you could wipe away any criticism, but now as some top-class scientists have entered the stage, it's getting quite hard for you.Dr. Phil is an exceptional specialist in his field, me being a former member of the Ahnenerbe with unique knowledge and experience. I know you have really good intentions. And as Immanuel Kant said the intentions are important, too.But you must read much, much more and much , much more experience. Infinity0, I can understand you, you feel offended as a 16 year old Chinese boy. But please take into consideration that I have a high esteem of Mongolids in general (see above).I invite everybody to help us in building a new Shangri-La in the wikipedia. 80.138.192.206 01:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The direct consequence of Knußmann's theory, as is proven in the section itself, is that Asian fetish is a social substitute for pedophilia in Western society. If you take the reasoning one more step, if people are attracted to Asians because they look like children, then those same people are attracted to childlike features. But the point is that they only look like children. Children are the real thing, Asians are just the simulacra. However, there are laws against pedophilia, but not against Asian fetish. Hence, Asian fetish must be a social substitute for pedophilia in Western society; and according to Knußmann's logic, all Caucasians who are intensely attracted to Asian women must be racist pedophiles. -- Wzhao553 02:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Simulacrum ? 70% of the Mongolid women (Nesid subrace) aged 30 look younger concerning anthro- pometric traits than 98% of the Nordic women (e.g.Dalofalid subrace) at the age of 12 (!).The paedomorphosis of a majority of Mongolid female adults is greater that than of Western children (!). So one could conclude that paedomorphosis is a substitute for Asiaphilia.Please do not call Asiaphiles racists, as the belief in the Mongolid women's superiority concerning femininity (i.e. this case paedomorphosis) is e.g. supported by Ashley Montagu and"goldsea.com", which photo-anaylzes Asian beauty in detail. 80.138.172.139 11:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yesterday , a vandal with the IP 193... number destroyed the whole talk page shortly after a comment of mine. I think it was infinity0 getting angry due to my comment. Please excuse for your behaviour, because it should not be a web admin's behaviour to do technical sabotage as vandalism in its purest sense.. 80.138.172.139 12:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
You all forget the major point which I will introduce: Millions of Western males have been rejected and kicked in the ass by racially Europid virago females due to their "uglyness","poverty" or Weltanschauung after years of struggle. Then the men turned to the Mongolid women with statistically overwhelming mutual satisfaction.Pedophilia does not play a major part in it.Western viragos behavior is a hubris which must be eliminated.One way is their self-exclusion from reproduction via the Asian fetish racially softening future females.So , the Asian fetish is very healthy race politics which must be supported by all means.When America has to withdraw from Europe in 30 years, there will be a Northern Europid-Mongolid master race dominating the world as in Harvard even today. I invite again everybody to join me in building a new Shangri-La in the wikipedia. 80.138.172.139 12:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence to back these claims up? Stop trying to force your personal opinions into wikipedia. Infinity0 talk 13:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This whole article is nothing more than an anonymous contributor's attempt to use wikipedia to propogate a pet theory of his. He cites published sources, some by people who are considered at best marginal minorities in their field, usually drawing on out-dated research and clinging to theories and models long rejected by their colleagues. Moreover, the anonymous user strings together these references to create his own argument, which is a violation of NOR. He originally created an article dedicated to his pet theory. It was eventually proposed for deletion and was then deleted. Now he is using this article to un-do a very recent deletion of his crank theory, see [33] Slrubenstein | Talk 14:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Assistance professor Steve Rubenstein (Athens,Ohio), author of the previous comment, has been alleged to be the leader of a leftist cabal in the "wikipedia" of at least 10 people , see e.g. webadmin's "user:silsor"'s (Mr.Bonham's) page who has himself nothing to do with those allegations, but considered them to be worth reporting.Mr.Rubenstein, as numerous others can testify, is trying to ban the virago/Asian fetish concept totally.As a Boasian scientist (see his publications and statements) he is part of a quite doubtful scientific tradition (see e.g. Kevin MacDonald,The Culture of Critique,2002).Now, Mr. Rubenstein has escalated the manipulation as he even refuses to tolerate to report the virago /Asian fetish concept as a major concept which has been contained in the world-famous Martin-Saller -Knußmann manual since 1914.No other Boasian dared to deny this concept. E.g. the very influential Meyer's Konversationslexikon 1888 under the name "Mannweib" featured it (digitalized online ).There is an overwhelming amount of evidence.- That denial is comparable to denying other concepts or events , such as the Holocaust or the Nazi racialist concepts, and is aiming at similar goals as Sheridan Prasso does (being herself a virago) : to undermine the respectability of decent Europeans. 80.138.172.139 19:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Get intelligent. 80.138.158.108 03:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I have informed several conform admins (or do you think we have no sleepers in the wikipedia ?) about the insult calling me a "loser" by infinity0 on the "anti-relativity" talk page. 80.138.172.139 23:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
"...However, it remains undisputed that differences between races exist, even beyond simple appearences. Interestingly enough, there appears to be a sub-population of non-Asian, typically Caucasian, women with a fetish for Asian men. However, this is more pronounced in Central and Eastern Europe, and less so in North America. In Canada and the UK, there seems to have been a shift over the last decade for Caucasian men to fetishize South Asian women as opposed to East Asian women. This is prevalent in the Canadian media, where East Asian women are no longer the dominant "non-white" females portrayed in the Canadian media. In the UK, the presence of South Asian female anchors has been the norm for decades. In Canadian television news stations, virtually all of the female anchors of East Asian descent, who were somewhat numerous a decade ago, have been completely replaced by female anchors of South Asian descent."
Maybe even the masculine men are getting more feminine (worked on by feminism) and get more interested in the somewhat harder Indid women according to Hartmann's theory.Or those people who own the media want to divert from the Eastern Asian women due to political reasons as part of an east-west shift back to the Nordid walkyries. 80.138.158.108 01:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)