This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
In his violent revert of everything I had added to this page, Tritomex deleted Wexler on the origins of Yiddish. There are several theories about the origin of Yiddish, not one, as the page asserts, in violation of WP:NPOV. There was the degraded Hebrew theory, the jargonized High German theory, the Bavarian theory, the Sorbian theory etc. They are all surveyed in Neil G. Jacobs Yiddish: A Linguistic Introduction,Cambridge University Press,2005 in the long introduction to this vexed topic (pop.6ff.) All these are theories and remain such, and no one theory can be allowed to pass as a fact, which is how this article pretends is the case. -- Nishidani ( talk) 13:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
See WP:SOAP. This isn't the place to complain about editors or that an article doesn't fit your standards -- Jethro B 15:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
This from the hatnote is pertinent to the problem. It explains why Tritomex's 4 sources are inadequate for encyclopedic work,
This has nothing to do with content. Seriously, let EVERYONE focus on the content and stop questioning each other's faith and "testing" each other. Please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
. This article under the history section, has the following sentence.
'There is a genetic and historic(al) evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East.'
This generalization on the genetic evidence, as opposed to historical evidence, is well supported in much of the scholarly literature. No dispute. There is, however, recent evidence which challenges this.
A major authority in the field, Avshalom Zoosmann-Diskin, is on record as disagreeing with our article's statement of one theory as a fact. In a 2010 paper he writes:-
(a) The origin of Eastern European Jews, (EEJ) by far the largest and most important Ashkenazi population, and their affinities to other Jewish and European populations are still not resolved.'
His paper then compares
(b)two competing theories regarding the origin of EEJ,
His conclusion is:-
(c) The autosomal genetic distance analysis presented here clearly demonstrates that the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin. The resemblance of EEJ to Italians and other European populations portrays them as an autochthonous European population.p.4
In short, in the technical literature there appear to be two positions. Can neutral third parties clarify what WP:NPOV requires here, and whether or not it is legitimate to exclude mentioning the other scholarly position which contests the generalization we have? Nishidani ( talk) 12:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
(1)'Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.'( WP:NPOV)
Leaving aside for the moment the outstanding issue, which consists of Tritomex's refusal, in contravention of WP:NPOV: to allow me to register Zoossmann-Diskin's explicit note, as a geneticist, that there are two competing theories':
('In order to compare two competing theories regarding the origin of EEJ, their geographic distances were computed as if they originated from Italy or Israel, i.e. the great circle distances for EEJ were calculated not between Warsaw and other capitals, but between Rome or Jerusalem and other capitals.')
There are some things we can surely agree on:
Considering the section "European Jews before the Ashkenazi" I am not sure what your intention and proposal is right now:
-- Tritomex ( talk) 16:48, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
[1] Dr King believes that huge Jewish community originating from Middle East migrated from Middle East since biblical times and established itself in territories of nowadays Germany very early. According to Dr King, This Hebrew and Aramaic speaking community developed Yiddish language. Also, Bernard Beck in the same book: page 78 propose that Polish, Lithuanian, Russian Jews may have lived on that territory since the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem in 586 BCE. Although this is alternative position,if we decide to include other alternative positions I would propose the inclusion of this one too.-- Tritomex ( talk) 20:19, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Also we should include the view of Sorbian specialist Heinz-Schuster-Sewc of the University of Leipzig, who is of he opinion that a Slavic ancestor of Yiddish “never existed” and is a pure “product of [Mr. Wexler’s] imagination.”-- Tritomex ( talk) 20:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
(::As to Yiddish, it is not our purpose here to adjudicate who is right. The minimal requirement is to register as per Jacobs and others, the four theories proposed, succinctly. This is no place (the Yiddish language article is the place) to cram the section with rebuttals of each. -- Nishidani ( talk) 21:12, 22 October 2012 (UTC))
Therefore I propose Wexler to the artickle about Yiddish language. The scope of this article will be drastically enlarged if we include all linguistic theories and population genetic studies. Also, I do not understand the reason why we should remove from historic section, important historic facts about the Jewish history predating the formation of Ashkenazi community while we are close to consensus to include ALL genetic studies to the same section. Your argument that " I have suggested this be removed, since it is amply covered in multiple pages", is unfounded and at least controversial as you had previously proposed linguistic theories and single non-mainstream genetic study insertion in the same section regarding Jewish history. While the linguistic theories are already covered in the article relating to Yiddish,this genetic study is "covered in multiple pages" and it has already a place in this article genetic section. My proposal is to include all genetic studies, special tables regarding the findings of each study in relation to the Middle Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Jews (to avoid eventual POV)(although per source we would have 20 Middle Eastern references and 1 undecided) and to leave Yiddish linguistic theories for the article about Yiddish language. -- Tritomex ( talk) 23:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC) I think we cant put equality sign between the mainstream opinion and alternative opinion. There is no equality between those who deny the Holocaust, or the existence of Palestinian people and those who reject this view in the same way as there is no equality between those who are stating that Yiddish is Germanic language and Wexler.. That does not mean that we should avoid alternative opinion, but it do not goes in to lead, it should be in part of articles dealing specifically with this issues, or mentioned in separate sections without promoting minority claims to the equal importance with mainstream opinion.Considering Atzmon and Behar their fidomgs are supported by 20 another genetic studies, while Zoosman Disskin is not supported by any other genetic study, therefore its by logical definition of the meaning of mainstream (the prevailing current of thought) [2] do not represent mainstream opinion and has it place only with other studies in genetic section. ( WP:UNDUE) "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views." -- Tritomex ( talk) 00:30, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
given the findings of a common genetic origin plus a complex history of admixture, geneticist David Goldstein of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that neither of the "extreme models"—those that see Jewishness as entirely cultural or entirely genetic—"are correct." Rather, Goldstein says, "Jewish genetic history is a complicated mixture of both genetic continuity from an ancestral population and extensive admixture." Michael Balter Tracing the Roots of Jewishness, Science Now, 3 June 2010,
What you write is repetitious and ignores the simple requests for clarification I am making.
I do not see "extensive material on Mesopotamia Jewish academies " in this article this is your subjective view. The long standing form explains in very short way the historic circumstances which led to the establishment of European Jewish population. Show exactly what you want to remove. This sentences is maybe not needed here,"The influential, sophisticated, and well organized Jewish community of Mesopotamia, now centered in Baghdad, became the center of the Jewish world. In the Caliphate of Baghdad, Jews took on many of the financial occupations that they would later hold in the cities of Ashkenaz." Also I cant find in the source this claim " Over this period of several hundred years, some have suggested, Jewish economic activity was focused on trade, business management, and financial services, due to several presumed factors: Christian European prohibitions restricting certain activities by Jews, preventing certain financial activities (such as "usurious" loans" this also maybe be better to be removed, the rest is from my point of view related material. Tritomex ( talk) 19:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Not related to subject-This can be removed
Not related to subject-can be removed -- Tritomex ( talk) 21:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
After the Roman empire had overpowered the Jewish resistance in the First Jewish–Roman War in Judea and destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, the complete Roman takeover of Judea followed the Bar Kochba rebellion of 132–135 CE. Though their numbers were greatly reduced, Jews continued to populate large parts of Judaea province (renamed to Palaestina), remaining a majority in Galilee for several hundred years. However, the Romans no longer recognized the authority of the Sanhedrin or any other Jewish body, and Jews were prohibited from living in Jerusalem.
'In Syria-Palaestina and Mesopotamia, where Jewish religious scholarship was centered, the majority of Jews were still engaged in farming, as demonstrated by the preoccupation of early Talmudic writings with agriculture. In diaspora communities, trade was a common occupation, facilitated by the easy mobility of traders through the dispersed Jewish communities.'
Scientifically Population genetics is much more accurate science than historic interpretation which can not provide direct proves and in many cases is based on secondary and indirect sources
this is becoming the prevailing view in historic science of last decade and has been the prevailing view in population genetic science its beginnings few decades ago
. Two edicts of Constantine (Cod. Theod. 16:8, 3–4) of 321 and 331 respectively imposed the onerous Curia duties on the Jews of Cologne and exempted the officials of their community from the obligations incumbent on the lower class of citizens . Acording to the Jewish encyclopedia There are indications that a Jewish community existed here long before Christianity had become dominant. The first official document, however, concerning the Jews of Cologne dates from the time of Constantine, who issued a decree (Dec. 11, 321) abolishing their privilege of exemption from onerous municipal offices ("Codex Theodosianus," iii. 16, 8). His successors, especially Theodosius II., did not content themselves with the withdrawal of old privileges, but curtailed the civic rights of the Jews. Happily for the Jews of Cologne, it fell, in 462, into the hands of the Franks; and a long period of freedom and prosperity for the Jews of that city followed, though many attempts were made by the fanatical clergy to disturb the harmony and interrupt the friendship existing between the Jews and the Christians.In 881 the Jewish community of Cologne ceased to exist, the city having been reduced to ashes by the Norman invaders. It was, however, soon rebuilt, and under the wise rule of the archbishops, which made the city a great industrial and commercial center, a prosperous and numerous Jewish community came into existence during the tenth century, accumulating material wealth and learning in an eminent degree. As in the old city, the Jews occupied a special quarter, situated between the city hall and the Church of St. Laurentius, although they were allowed to reside wherever they chose." From 341 an official document is existing about the establishment of Synagogue (Carl Dietmar, Die Chronik Kölns, p. 34)"Jews lived in Lower Germania since 1th century, but since 4th century they constituted a large and significant community" [8] Currently excavations reviled a synagogue from 8th century(mentioned by Toch on P 297) There are of course more additional materials related to historicity of Cologne Jewish community, therefore I propose the removal of dubious templates from clearly non dubious facts and sources related to the history of Jewish community in Germany from 4th century, especially from Cologne Jewish community itself.-- Tritomex ( talk) 23:21, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello,
Due to the fact the article had a lot of images in different sizes it looked messy. I made a new selection and put:
My selection was based on giving representation to as much fields as possible Ashkenazi Jews made an impact in!
In order to avoid controversy, I decided not to put political figures into it like Karl Marx, Ben Gurion or Herzel, again, due to the fact I assume there are Jews who support them and oppose to them. Due to the fact the article is about Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group I didn't put religious figures in it in order not to create confusion!
I hope the selection is OK :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danton's Jacobin ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The new image I created was reverted by Avaya1 with the argument: "infobox will not be changed, as arrived at after months of discussion on talk to reach consensus". Can we please get a link to that discussion? How come it was normal to add and remove things in the past and suddently someone decided: "Now it's locked and new people can't do anything?" I don't think anything can be "final" on Wikipedia, and if people feel there is a topic you can discuss than it will be discussed and might be changed.
The biggest Jewish writer, Sholem Aleichem, is not included which is as absurd as the English not including Shakespear in theirs. Chagall is one of the greatest artists ever, and the greatest Jewish, and not including him is like the Italians not including Da Vinci in theirs.
From the other hand, their are definitely too much politicians. Herzl, Ben Gurion and Golda Meir. I understand Herzl, but do they really need two prime ministers?
There are two musicians, Gershwin and Mahler, but the greatest Jewish musicion ever which is Mendelssohn is not included. Wouldn't it make more sense to include him?
I don't think the discussion is closed, on Wikipedia changes can be made as long as they are not based on false information or as long as they are not done by revert wars. Danton's Jacobin ( talk) 23:02, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
I have to say, the new picture is really nice. I didn't like the old one at all. The only thing is, I think more people could have been added. For example Chaim Weizmann (I understand why you don't want politicians there, but the guy is not so much a politician as an activist and a scientist). Bob Dylan is also not a bad idea. Do you know any Jewish modern performer with more influence then him? I don't think so. Mark Spitz would be good as just to break the stereotype Jews are not good in sport. Barbra Streisand would be good because she's awesome. It's important to give enough representation to American Jews, simply because that's where most of them live. Mensch with Shteig ( talk) 22:40, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
I added 4 more people, based on the suggestion of User:Mensch with Shteig. The people are:
I would like to make a change of the first line, to: "Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz"), are the Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north, who trace their origins to the Fertile Crescent." 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 12:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
The term likely and probably I would propose to be included not because there is a lack of RS from population genetics for this claim, as with my knowledge of population genetics I have no doubts regarding this question but because I would like to avoid any long-term dispute.-- Tritomex ( talk) 17:03, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with the idea that concessions should be made to those who want to raise a big stink over it, because it usually just comes from people with a political axe to grind. For instance, the article on Gypsies is rather explicit in placing their origins in South Asia, and it's known with about as much certainty that Ashkenazi Jews ultimately hail from the Levant. Ashkenazi origins, more than any other, are highly politicized so I'm trying to avoid caving into the demands of fanatics. This is an encyclopedia, after all. 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 07:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
So can we have agreement about this wording: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are ethnoreligious group which originated in Middle East, during the Bronze Age (from 2000 BC to 700 BC) and was likely formed as separate Jewish group in the region along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the Middle Ages- -- Tritomex ( talk) 15:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Getting closer, but still a little too muddled in my opinion. I would go with this: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are an ethnic group who trace their origins to the Middle East, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the Middle Ages.
Thoughts? 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 21:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Also, does anyone know how to request an article change in semi-protected articles like this one? 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 21:42, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
The word "settled" needs to be included. The current version of the article says that they descend from the medieval Jewish communities in that part of Europe, hence the addendum "settled during the Middle Ages". That source you have there would work.
How do I request a change to this article? 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 08:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Let's try this: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are an ethnic group who trace their origins to the Levant, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the early Middle Ages. 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 08:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
I think there should be an additional section to the article titled "conspiracy theories", primarily because Ashkenazi Jews were the principle subject of most if not all of them. These include the Rothschilds, blood libels, the murder of Christ, control of the banks and government institutions, Zionist collaboration with the Nazis, etc etc etc. There's also a paper here about how the Jews who settled in Europe were frequently victims of "Orientalism", and were considered the "Asiatics of Europe", because of their origins in the Middle East. http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~ikalmar/illustex/orijed.intro.htm Evildoer187 ( talk) 09:25, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
I have 8 more celebrities/famous figures I want to add to the image box, but I don't know how to implement them. Evildoer187 ( talk) 23:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
So here is what we see on Ashkenazo Jews:
|image = <table border=0 align="center"> <tr> <td>[[File:Einstein 1921 portrait2.jpg|95x95px|Einstein]]</td> <td>[[File:Sholem Aleichem 1907.jpg|95x95px|Aleichem]]</td> <td>[[File:Chagall France 1921.jpg|95x95px|Chagall]]</td> <td>[[File:Noether.jpg|95x95px|Noether]]</td> </tr> <tr> <td>[[File:Mendelssohn Bartholdy.jpg|95x95px|Mendelssohn]]</td> <td>[[File:Sigmund Freud LIFE.jpg|95x95px|Freud]]</td> <td>[[File:Natalie Portman - TIFF2010 01.jpg|95x95px|Portman]]</td> <td>[[File:Kafka portrait.jpg|95x95px|Kafka]]</td> </tr> </table> |caption= 1st row: [[Albert Einstein]] {{·}} [[Sholem Aleichem]] {{·}} [[Marc Chagall]] {{·}} [[Emmy Noether]] 2nd row: [[Felix Mendelssohn]] {{·}} [[Sigmund Freud]] {{·}} [[Natalie Portman]] {{·}} [[Franz Kafka]]
You can see there is a pattern, right? Like its
<td>[[picturename.jpg|95x95px|Name of person]]</td>
Do you get what I mean? So in each line we have a different picture, and in order o separate between the lines you add:
</tr> <tr> What I do is I simple look at the patern, I copy a part of it: <tr> <td>[[File:Mendelssohn Bartholdy.jpg|95x95px|Mendelssohn]]</td> <td>[[File:Sigmund Freud LIFE.jpg|95x95px|Freud]]</td> <td>[[File:Natalie Portman - TIFF2010 01.jpg|95x95px|Portman]]</td> <td>[[File:Kafka portrait.jpg|95x95px|Kafka]]</td> </tr> I add it to the pattern we already have, so we getL <tr> <td>[[File:Einstein 1921 portrait2.jpg|95x95px|Einstein]]</td> <td>[[File:Sholem Aleichem 1907.jpg|95x95px|Aleichem]]</td> <td>[[File:Chagall France 1921.jpg|95x95px|Chagall]]</td> <td>[[File:Noether.jpg|95x95px|Noether]]</td> </tr> <tr> <td>[[File:Mendelssohn Bartholdy.jpg|95x95px|Mendelssohn]]</td> <td>[[File:Sigmund Freud LIFE.jpg|95x95px|Freud]]</td> <td>[[File:Natalie Portman - TIFF2010 01.jpg|95x95px|Portman]]</td> <td>[[File:Kafka portrait.jpg|95x95px|Kafka]]</td> </tr>
And then in the new line I created I just put new pictures and new names. Did you understand what I explained? Feel free to ask questions! But it's important for you to know: Don't add lines on your own, you might have great ideas, but you will be reverted if you do something people don't like, and if you revert them back you might be blocked. The best thing to do is go to the discussion page and join the existing discussion, saying who you want to add:
[13]
You said you want to add 8 more people, and I'm sure you thought of great people, but it's too much because then we will have 4 lines of 8 people, when it looks better if you have 2 or 3 lines, so it's better if you suggest 4 people and not 8 people. Also, before doing the edit, as said before, say on the discussion page why you want to add them, wait a bit for the comments, and then do the edit (or ask me to do the edit for you). Danton's Jacobin ( talk) 18:27, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I was trying to ask how you upload images from the internet and format them for the image box. Usually, I just find an image and Copy Image Location, and then insert it wherever the image needs to go. That's what I'm having trouble with. Evildoer187 ( talk) 00:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I took a section from the Jews page, entitled Orientalism, and added it to this article because I thought it was relevant. I feel it also has an educational value to those who wish to understand antisemitism, and how it works, better. Evildoer187 ( talk) 10:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I have implemented my own additions to the photo box in the article. Admittedly, it looks a little messy because I took the photos from their respective Wiki pages, and re-formatted them for the photo template on here, since I cannot upload the photos manually. I would have preferred using a different photo of Ben Stein, for instance. The people I've added are Ben Stein, Anne Frank, Theodor Herzl, Steven Spielberg, Cliff Simon, Brad Garrett, Ben Bernanke, and Eugene Levy. All 8 of these celebrities are of full Ashkenazi Jewish descent.
Evildoer187 (
talk) 22:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
:Hi :-) I support the inclusion of Anne Frank, Herzl, Spielberg. Really nice! I do have problems with some inclusions:
Don't change the photobox - it took many many months of long discussion between many users for each figure, to come up with present selection. Also, because of WP:BLP concerns, it has been agreed that no living people will be added to the box Avaya1 ( talk) 03:33, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
We are not having living people because of WP:BLP, as decided by adminstrators here, and also we have to have sources that the people listed are Ashkenazi. We also have a consensus selection. If you want to new photobox, you have to get a new consensus for each swap. Avaya1 ( talk) 23:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Why was my name crossed out? I'm not a sock puppet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evildoer187 ( talk • contribs) 05:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I put Sholem Aleichem instead of van Neumann. Sholem Aleichem is the greatest Yiddish writer ever and it's just weird not to have him in the image.
I put Botvinnik intead of Gershvin for two reasons. First of all, Botvinnik represents the Jewish achievments in chess. Second, Gershvin is not known outside America and there are too much Americans in the image already anyway. Guitar hero on the roof ( talk) 09:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
With [14] Gilisa has "low-level" as a description of gene flow which Nebel et al (2005) describe [15]. But there is no such qualification in Nebel et al (2005). Why should this not be reverted? -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 08:47, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I did not remove the content because I disagreed with the wording, I removed it because the claims were false, as I wrote in the edit summary.
Included still are falsehoods. Dziebel does not claim "the Ashkenazim community only formed in Europe by Jews who emigrated from the Middle East at relatively late stage of European history." Dziebel does not claim "However, admixture with European population is not needed to explain the results of Bray et al. study if not assuming Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians to represent the source origin of Ashkenazim in the Levant or Ashkenazim to be subset of these groups. It's only with this assumption that one would expect Ashkenazim to show lower genetic diversity since then they should be newer population. However, assuming Arabs as the source of world Jewry or more antique population have no historical ground."
Why should these claims not be removed? -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 22:19, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Seeing as Ashkenazi Jews are a Semitic group with origins in the Levant, it goes without saying that they share a good number of similarities with other Levantine groups, hence their inclusion. Although it is true that some of these identities did not emerge until later, the relationship is still there. Evildoer187 ( talk) 23:40, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Moreover, how do these edits constitute vandalism in any way? Evildoer187 ( talk) 23:59, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
It's an obvious political POV edit related to the Israeli-Arab conflict and doesn't belong here. The history, identity etc of the Ashkenazi don't have much to do with these nations. It makes more sense to maybe add these groups to Israelis, which may also seem political but at least won't seem out of place because Israel is in the Middle East while Ashk. history was formed in European lands. Yuvn86 ( talk) 19:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I suggest to use the formulation used in the Jews article:
other Levantines [1] [2] [3] [4], Samaritans [5], Arabs [6] [7], Assyrians [8] [9]
I think that one is neutral and literally no one could have any problem with that one! Though I don't see a problem with the current one. Guitar hero on the roof ( talk) 09:41, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
I edited it to be:
Other
Jews,
Sephardi Jews,
Mizrahi Jews, etc.
Other
Levantines
[10]
[11]
[12]
[13],
Samaritans
[14],
Arabs
[15]
[16],
Assyrians
[17]
[18]
I think Levantines makes it clear that who we are refering to are those who live in the Levant region. I tried to make a formulation similar to the Jews article, with reference to other Jewish groups. Guitar hero on the roof ( talk) 09:02, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
In his violent revert of everything I had added to this page, Tritomex deleted Wexler on the origins of Yiddish. There are several theories about the origin of Yiddish, not one, as the page asserts, in violation of WP:NPOV. There was the degraded Hebrew theory, the jargonized High German theory, the Bavarian theory, the Sorbian theory etc. They are all surveyed in Neil G. Jacobs Yiddish: A Linguistic Introduction,Cambridge University Press,2005 in the long introduction to this vexed topic (pop.6ff.) All these are theories and remain such, and no one theory can be allowed to pass as a fact, which is how this article pretends is the case. -- Nishidani ( talk) 13:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
See WP:SOAP. This isn't the place to complain about editors or that an article doesn't fit your standards -- Jethro B 15:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
This from the hatnote is pertinent to the problem. It explains why Tritomex's 4 sources are inadequate for encyclopedic work,
This has nothing to do with content. Seriously, let EVERYONE focus on the content and stop questioning each other's faith and "testing" each other. Please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
. This article under the history section, has the following sentence.
'There is a genetic and historic(al) evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East.'
This generalization on the genetic evidence, as opposed to historical evidence, is well supported in much of the scholarly literature. No dispute. There is, however, recent evidence which challenges this.
A major authority in the field, Avshalom Zoosmann-Diskin, is on record as disagreeing with our article's statement of one theory as a fact. In a 2010 paper he writes:-
(a) The origin of Eastern European Jews, (EEJ) by far the largest and most important Ashkenazi population, and their affinities to other Jewish and European populations are still not resolved.'
His paper then compares
(b)two competing theories regarding the origin of EEJ,
His conclusion is:-
(c) The autosomal genetic distance analysis presented here clearly demonstrates that the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin. The resemblance of EEJ to Italians and other European populations portrays them as an autochthonous European population.p.4
In short, in the technical literature there appear to be two positions. Can neutral third parties clarify what WP:NPOV requires here, and whether or not it is legitimate to exclude mentioning the other scholarly position which contests the generalization we have? Nishidani ( talk) 12:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
(1)'Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.'( WP:NPOV)
Leaving aside for the moment the outstanding issue, which consists of Tritomex's refusal, in contravention of WP:NPOV: to allow me to register Zoossmann-Diskin's explicit note, as a geneticist, that there are two competing theories':
('In order to compare two competing theories regarding the origin of EEJ, their geographic distances were computed as if they originated from Italy or Israel, i.e. the great circle distances for EEJ were calculated not between Warsaw and other capitals, but between Rome or Jerusalem and other capitals.')
There are some things we can surely agree on:
Considering the section "European Jews before the Ashkenazi" I am not sure what your intention and proposal is right now:
-- Tritomex ( talk) 16:48, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
[1] Dr King believes that huge Jewish community originating from Middle East migrated from Middle East since biblical times and established itself in territories of nowadays Germany very early. According to Dr King, This Hebrew and Aramaic speaking community developed Yiddish language. Also, Bernard Beck in the same book: page 78 propose that Polish, Lithuanian, Russian Jews may have lived on that territory since the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem in 586 BCE. Although this is alternative position,if we decide to include other alternative positions I would propose the inclusion of this one too.-- Tritomex ( talk) 20:19, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Also we should include the view of Sorbian specialist Heinz-Schuster-Sewc of the University of Leipzig, who is of he opinion that a Slavic ancestor of Yiddish “never existed” and is a pure “product of [Mr. Wexler’s] imagination.”-- Tritomex ( talk) 20:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
(::As to Yiddish, it is not our purpose here to adjudicate who is right. The minimal requirement is to register as per Jacobs and others, the four theories proposed, succinctly. This is no place (the Yiddish language article is the place) to cram the section with rebuttals of each. -- Nishidani ( talk) 21:12, 22 October 2012 (UTC))
Therefore I propose Wexler to the artickle about Yiddish language. The scope of this article will be drastically enlarged if we include all linguistic theories and population genetic studies. Also, I do not understand the reason why we should remove from historic section, important historic facts about the Jewish history predating the formation of Ashkenazi community while we are close to consensus to include ALL genetic studies to the same section. Your argument that " I have suggested this be removed, since it is amply covered in multiple pages", is unfounded and at least controversial as you had previously proposed linguistic theories and single non-mainstream genetic study insertion in the same section regarding Jewish history. While the linguistic theories are already covered in the article relating to Yiddish,this genetic study is "covered in multiple pages" and it has already a place in this article genetic section. My proposal is to include all genetic studies, special tables regarding the findings of each study in relation to the Middle Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Jews (to avoid eventual POV)(although per source we would have 20 Middle Eastern references and 1 undecided) and to leave Yiddish linguistic theories for the article about Yiddish language. -- Tritomex ( talk) 23:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC) I think we cant put equality sign between the mainstream opinion and alternative opinion. There is no equality between those who deny the Holocaust, or the existence of Palestinian people and those who reject this view in the same way as there is no equality between those who are stating that Yiddish is Germanic language and Wexler.. That does not mean that we should avoid alternative opinion, but it do not goes in to lead, it should be in part of articles dealing specifically with this issues, or mentioned in separate sections without promoting minority claims to the equal importance with mainstream opinion.Considering Atzmon and Behar their fidomgs are supported by 20 another genetic studies, while Zoosman Disskin is not supported by any other genetic study, therefore its by logical definition of the meaning of mainstream (the prevailing current of thought) [2] do not represent mainstream opinion and has it place only with other studies in genetic section. ( WP:UNDUE) "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views." -- Tritomex ( talk) 00:30, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
given the findings of a common genetic origin plus a complex history of admixture, geneticist David Goldstein of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that neither of the "extreme models"—those that see Jewishness as entirely cultural or entirely genetic—"are correct." Rather, Goldstein says, "Jewish genetic history is a complicated mixture of both genetic continuity from an ancestral population and extensive admixture." Michael Balter Tracing the Roots of Jewishness, Science Now, 3 June 2010,
What you write is repetitious and ignores the simple requests for clarification I am making.
I do not see "extensive material on Mesopotamia Jewish academies " in this article this is your subjective view. The long standing form explains in very short way the historic circumstances which led to the establishment of European Jewish population. Show exactly what you want to remove. This sentences is maybe not needed here,"The influential, sophisticated, and well organized Jewish community of Mesopotamia, now centered in Baghdad, became the center of the Jewish world. In the Caliphate of Baghdad, Jews took on many of the financial occupations that they would later hold in the cities of Ashkenaz." Also I cant find in the source this claim " Over this period of several hundred years, some have suggested, Jewish economic activity was focused on trade, business management, and financial services, due to several presumed factors: Christian European prohibitions restricting certain activities by Jews, preventing certain financial activities (such as "usurious" loans" this also maybe be better to be removed, the rest is from my point of view related material. Tritomex ( talk) 19:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Not related to subject-This can be removed
Not related to subject-can be removed -- Tritomex ( talk) 21:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
After the Roman empire had overpowered the Jewish resistance in the First Jewish–Roman War in Judea and destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, the complete Roman takeover of Judea followed the Bar Kochba rebellion of 132–135 CE. Though their numbers were greatly reduced, Jews continued to populate large parts of Judaea province (renamed to Palaestina), remaining a majority in Galilee for several hundred years. However, the Romans no longer recognized the authority of the Sanhedrin or any other Jewish body, and Jews were prohibited from living in Jerusalem.
'In Syria-Palaestina and Mesopotamia, where Jewish religious scholarship was centered, the majority of Jews were still engaged in farming, as demonstrated by the preoccupation of early Talmudic writings with agriculture. In diaspora communities, trade was a common occupation, facilitated by the easy mobility of traders through the dispersed Jewish communities.'
Scientifically Population genetics is much more accurate science than historic interpretation which can not provide direct proves and in many cases is based on secondary and indirect sources
this is becoming the prevailing view in historic science of last decade and has been the prevailing view in population genetic science its beginnings few decades ago
. Two edicts of Constantine (Cod. Theod. 16:8, 3–4) of 321 and 331 respectively imposed the onerous Curia duties on the Jews of Cologne and exempted the officials of their community from the obligations incumbent on the lower class of citizens . Acording to the Jewish encyclopedia There are indications that a Jewish community existed here long before Christianity had become dominant. The first official document, however, concerning the Jews of Cologne dates from the time of Constantine, who issued a decree (Dec. 11, 321) abolishing their privilege of exemption from onerous municipal offices ("Codex Theodosianus," iii. 16, 8). His successors, especially Theodosius II., did not content themselves with the withdrawal of old privileges, but curtailed the civic rights of the Jews. Happily for the Jews of Cologne, it fell, in 462, into the hands of the Franks; and a long period of freedom and prosperity for the Jews of that city followed, though many attempts were made by the fanatical clergy to disturb the harmony and interrupt the friendship existing between the Jews and the Christians.In 881 the Jewish community of Cologne ceased to exist, the city having been reduced to ashes by the Norman invaders. It was, however, soon rebuilt, and under the wise rule of the archbishops, which made the city a great industrial and commercial center, a prosperous and numerous Jewish community came into existence during the tenth century, accumulating material wealth and learning in an eminent degree. As in the old city, the Jews occupied a special quarter, situated between the city hall and the Church of St. Laurentius, although they were allowed to reside wherever they chose." From 341 an official document is existing about the establishment of Synagogue (Carl Dietmar, Die Chronik Kölns, p. 34)"Jews lived in Lower Germania since 1th century, but since 4th century they constituted a large and significant community" [8] Currently excavations reviled a synagogue from 8th century(mentioned by Toch on P 297) There are of course more additional materials related to historicity of Cologne Jewish community, therefore I propose the removal of dubious templates from clearly non dubious facts and sources related to the history of Jewish community in Germany from 4th century, especially from Cologne Jewish community itself.-- Tritomex ( talk) 23:21, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello,
Due to the fact the article had a lot of images in different sizes it looked messy. I made a new selection and put:
My selection was based on giving representation to as much fields as possible Ashkenazi Jews made an impact in!
In order to avoid controversy, I decided not to put political figures into it like Karl Marx, Ben Gurion or Herzel, again, due to the fact I assume there are Jews who support them and oppose to them. Due to the fact the article is about Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group I didn't put religious figures in it in order not to create confusion!
I hope the selection is OK :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danton's Jacobin ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The new image I created was reverted by Avaya1 with the argument: "infobox will not be changed, as arrived at after months of discussion on talk to reach consensus". Can we please get a link to that discussion? How come it was normal to add and remove things in the past and suddently someone decided: "Now it's locked and new people can't do anything?" I don't think anything can be "final" on Wikipedia, and if people feel there is a topic you can discuss than it will be discussed and might be changed.
The biggest Jewish writer, Sholem Aleichem, is not included which is as absurd as the English not including Shakespear in theirs. Chagall is one of the greatest artists ever, and the greatest Jewish, and not including him is like the Italians not including Da Vinci in theirs.
From the other hand, their are definitely too much politicians. Herzl, Ben Gurion and Golda Meir. I understand Herzl, but do they really need two prime ministers?
There are two musicians, Gershwin and Mahler, but the greatest Jewish musicion ever which is Mendelssohn is not included. Wouldn't it make more sense to include him?
I don't think the discussion is closed, on Wikipedia changes can be made as long as they are not based on false information or as long as they are not done by revert wars. Danton's Jacobin ( talk) 23:02, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
I have to say, the new picture is really nice. I didn't like the old one at all. The only thing is, I think more people could have been added. For example Chaim Weizmann (I understand why you don't want politicians there, but the guy is not so much a politician as an activist and a scientist). Bob Dylan is also not a bad idea. Do you know any Jewish modern performer with more influence then him? I don't think so. Mark Spitz would be good as just to break the stereotype Jews are not good in sport. Barbra Streisand would be good because she's awesome. It's important to give enough representation to American Jews, simply because that's where most of them live. Mensch with Shteig ( talk) 22:40, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
I added 4 more people, based on the suggestion of User:Mensch with Shteig. The people are:
I would like to make a change of the first line, to: "Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz"), are the Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north, who trace their origins to the Fertile Crescent." 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 12:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
The term likely and probably I would propose to be included not because there is a lack of RS from population genetics for this claim, as with my knowledge of population genetics I have no doubts regarding this question but because I would like to avoid any long-term dispute.-- Tritomex ( talk) 17:03, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with the idea that concessions should be made to those who want to raise a big stink over it, because it usually just comes from people with a political axe to grind. For instance, the article on Gypsies is rather explicit in placing their origins in South Asia, and it's known with about as much certainty that Ashkenazi Jews ultimately hail from the Levant. Ashkenazi origins, more than any other, are highly politicized so I'm trying to avoid caving into the demands of fanatics. This is an encyclopedia, after all. 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 07:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
So can we have agreement about this wording: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are ethnoreligious group which originated in Middle East, during the Bronze Age (from 2000 BC to 700 BC) and was likely formed as separate Jewish group in the region along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the Middle Ages- -- Tritomex ( talk) 15:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Getting closer, but still a little too muddled in my opinion. I would go with this: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are an ethnic group who trace their origins to the Middle East, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the Middle Ages.
Thoughts? 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 21:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Also, does anyone know how to request an article change in semi-protected articles like this one? 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 21:42, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
The word "settled" needs to be included. The current version of the article says that they descend from the medieval Jewish communities in that part of Europe, hence the addendum "settled during the Middle Ages". That source you have there would work.
How do I request a change to this article? 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 08:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Let's try this: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are an ethnic group who trace their origins to the Levant, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the early Middle Ages. 69.248.98.23 ( talk) 08:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
I think there should be an additional section to the article titled "conspiracy theories", primarily because Ashkenazi Jews were the principle subject of most if not all of them. These include the Rothschilds, blood libels, the murder of Christ, control of the banks and government institutions, Zionist collaboration with the Nazis, etc etc etc. There's also a paper here about how the Jews who settled in Europe were frequently victims of "Orientalism", and were considered the "Asiatics of Europe", because of their origins in the Middle East. http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~ikalmar/illustex/orijed.intro.htm Evildoer187 ( talk) 09:25, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
I have 8 more celebrities/famous figures I want to add to the image box, but I don't know how to implement them. Evildoer187 ( talk) 23:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
So here is what we see on Ashkenazo Jews:
|image = <table border=0 align="center"> <tr> <td>[[File:Einstein 1921 portrait2.jpg|95x95px|Einstein]]</td> <td>[[File:Sholem Aleichem 1907.jpg|95x95px|Aleichem]]</td> <td>[[File:Chagall France 1921.jpg|95x95px|Chagall]]</td> <td>[[File:Noether.jpg|95x95px|Noether]]</td> </tr> <tr> <td>[[File:Mendelssohn Bartholdy.jpg|95x95px|Mendelssohn]]</td> <td>[[File:Sigmund Freud LIFE.jpg|95x95px|Freud]]</td> <td>[[File:Natalie Portman - TIFF2010 01.jpg|95x95px|Portman]]</td> <td>[[File:Kafka portrait.jpg|95x95px|Kafka]]</td> </tr> </table> |caption= 1st row: [[Albert Einstein]] {{·}} [[Sholem Aleichem]] {{·}} [[Marc Chagall]] {{·}} [[Emmy Noether]] 2nd row: [[Felix Mendelssohn]] {{·}} [[Sigmund Freud]] {{·}} [[Natalie Portman]] {{·}} [[Franz Kafka]]
You can see there is a pattern, right? Like its
<td>[[picturename.jpg|95x95px|Name of person]]</td>
Do you get what I mean? So in each line we have a different picture, and in order o separate between the lines you add:
</tr> <tr> What I do is I simple look at the patern, I copy a part of it: <tr> <td>[[File:Mendelssohn Bartholdy.jpg|95x95px|Mendelssohn]]</td> <td>[[File:Sigmund Freud LIFE.jpg|95x95px|Freud]]</td> <td>[[File:Natalie Portman - TIFF2010 01.jpg|95x95px|Portman]]</td> <td>[[File:Kafka portrait.jpg|95x95px|Kafka]]</td> </tr> I add it to the pattern we already have, so we getL <tr> <td>[[File:Einstein 1921 portrait2.jpg|95x95px|Einstein]]</td> <td>[[File:Sholem Aleichem 1907.jpg|95x95px|Aleichem]]</td> <td>[[File:Chagall France 1921.jpg|95x95px|Chagall]]</td> <td>[[File:Noether.jpg|95x95px|Noether]]</td> </tr> <tr> <td>[[File:Mendelssohn Bartholdy.jpg|95x95px|Mendelssohn]]</td> <td>[[File:Sigmund Freud LIFE.jpg|95x95px|Freud]]</td> <td>[[File:Natalie Portman - TIFF2010 01.jpg|95x95px|Portman]]</td> <td>[[File:Kafka portrait.jpg|95x95px|Kafka]]</td> </tr>
And then in the new line I created I just put new pictures and new names. Did you understand what I explained? Feel free to ask questions! But it's important for you to know: Don't add lines on your own, you might have great ideas, but you will be reverted if you do something people don't like, and if you revert them back you might be blocked. The best thing to do is go to the discussion page and join the existing discussion, saying who you want to add:
[13]
You said you want to add 8 more people, and I'm sure you thought of great people, but it's too much because then we will have 4 lines of 8 people, when it looks better if you have 2 or 3 lines, so it's better if you suggest 4 people and not 8 people. Also, before doing the edit, as said before, say on the discussion page why you want to add them, wait a bit for the comments, and then do the edit (or ask me to do the edit for you). Danton's Jacobin ( talk) 18:27, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I was trying to ask how you upload images from the internet and format them for the image box. Usually, I just find an image and Copy Image Location, and then insert it wherever the image needs to go. That's what I'm having trouble with. Evildoer187 ( talk) 00:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I took a section from the Jews page, entitled Orientalism, and added it to this article because I thought it was relevant. I feel it also has an educational value to those who wish to understand antisemitism, and how it works, better. Evildoer187 ( talk) 10:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I have implemented my own additions to the photo box in the article. Admittedly, it looks a little messy because I took the photos from their respective Wiki pages, and re-formatted them for the photo template on here, since I cannot upload the photos manually. I would have preferred using a different photo of Ben Stein, for instance. The people I've added are Ben Stein, Anne Frank, Theodor Herzl, Steven Spielberg, Cliff Simon, Brad Garrett, Ben Bernanke, and Eugene Levy. All 8 of these celebrities are of full Ashkenazi Jewish descent.
Evildoer187 (
talk) 22:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
:Hi :-) I support the inclusion of Anne Frank, Herzl, Spielberg. Really nice! I do have problems with some inclusions:
Don't change the photobox - it took many many months of long discussion between many users for each figure, to come up with present selection. Also, because of WP:BLP concerns, it has been agreed that no living people will be added to the box Avaya1 ( talk) 03:33, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
We are not having living people because of WP:BLP, as decided by adminstrators here, and also we have to have sources that the people listed are Ashkenazi. We also have a consensus selection. If you want to new photobox, you have to get a new consensus for each swap. Avaya1 ( talk) 23:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Why was my name crossed out? I'm not a sock puppet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evildoer187 ( talk • contribs) 05:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I put Sholem Aleichem instead of van Neumann. Sholem Aleichem is the greatest Yiddish writer ever and it's just weird not to have him in the image.
I put Botvinnik intead of Gershvin for two reasons. First of all, Botvinnik represents the Jewish achievments in chess. Second, Gershvin is not known outside America and there are too much Americans in the image already anyway. Guitar hero on the roof ( talk) 09:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
With [14] Gilisa has "low-level" as a description of gene flow which Nebel et al (2005) describe [15]. But there is no such qualification in Nebel et al (2005). Why should this not be reverted? -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 08:47, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I did not remove the content because I disagreed with the wording, I removed it because the claims were false, as I wrote in the edit summary.
Included still are falsehoods. Dziebel does not claim "the Ashkenazim community only formed in Europe by Jews who emigrated from the Middle East at relatively late stage of European history." Dziebel does not claim "However, admixture with European population is not needed to explain the results of Bray et al. study if not assuming Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians to represent the source origin of Ashkenazim in the Levant or Ashkenazim to be subset of these groups. It's only with this assumption that one would expect Ashkenazim to show lower genetic diversity since then they should be newer population. However, assuming Arabs as the source of world Jewry or more antique population have no historical ground."
Why should these claims not be removed? -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 22:19, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Seeing as Ashkenazi Jews are a Semitic group with origins in the Levant, it goes without saying that they share a good number of similarities with other Levantine groups, hence their inclusion. Although it is true that some of these identities did not emerge until later, the relationship is still there. Evildoer187 ( talk) 23:40, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Moreover, how do these edits constitute vandalism in any way? Evildoer187 ( talk) 23:59, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
It's an obvious political POV edit related to the Israeli-Arab conflict and doesn't belong here. The history, identity etc of the Ashkenazi don't have much to do with these nations. It makes more sense to maybe add these groups to Israelis, which may also seem political but at least won't seem out of place because Israel is in the Middle East while Ashk. history was formed in European lands. Yuvn86 ( talk) 19:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I suggest to use the formulation used in the Jews article:
other Levantines [1] [2] [3] [4], Samaritans [5], Arabs [6] [7], Assyrians [8] [9]
I think that one is neutral and literally no one could have any problem with that one! Though I don't see a problem with the current one. Guitar hero on the roof ( talk) 09:41, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
I edited it to be:
Other
Jews,
Sephardi Jews,
Mizrahi Jews, etc.
Other
Levantines
[10]
[11]
[12]
[13],
Samaritans
[14],
Arabs
[15]
[16],
Assyrians
[17]
[18]
I think Levantines makes it clear that who we are refering to are those who live in the Levant region. I tried to make a formulation similar to the Jews article, with reference to other Jewish groups. Guitar hero on the roof ( talk) 09:02, 6 January 2013 (UTC)