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The following passage in the lead paragraph ("Some DNA tests suggest that Ashkenazi Jews are mainly of European origin") is highly problematic. First off, the citations provided for it only include one DNA study, with the rest consisting of secondary news articles and journals reporting on the study. Therefore, the words "Some DNA tests" are misleading since there is, in fact, only one DNA test cited. Take, in contrast, this passage which precedes it ("some DNA tests suggesting an origin in the Israelite tribes of the Middle East"). The sources used here are much more varied, with more than one DNA study cited, along with a couple of historical sources. This by itself raises red flags for WP:UNDUE and WP:MINORITY.
And now for the heart of the matter. The genetic study used in support of the former passage (i.e. "Some DNA tests suggest that Ashkenazi Jews are mainly of European origin") does not arrive at this conclusion. Rather, it suggests that Ashkenazi maternal/mtDNA origins are mainly traceable to Europe. It does not say that Ashkenazim are mainly European in origin. The passage I quoted omits any mention of mtDNA, which was the main focus of the study. So whoever posted this is either manipulating the source material, or simply did not read the study. I hope I'm not the only one who is concerned about this.
As for the related ethnic groups template, what is the criteria for inclusion? My initial impression was that it entailed sharing common geographic origins, culture, linguistic similarities, etc in addition to genetics. Some extra sources should be provided for all ethnic groups included, because the only citations are genetic studies. But overall, we need to establish some solid criteria for this, so that we may avert future disputes. Evildoer187 ( talk) 17:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I have slightly rewritten the introduction to reflect the fact which all seem to agree upon that it was only 1 test. Debresser ( talk) 22:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree that saying that "Ashkenazi Jews are of European origin" is not the same as saying "Ashkenazi maternal/mtDNA origins are mainly traceable to Europe". I would like some expert opinion on the meaning of that sentence.
I would suggest to split the statement in two: one part bringing the test and its conclusion ("Ashkenazi maternal/mtDNA origins are mainly traceable to Europe"), and another bringing the more popular sources' interpretation ("Ashkenazi Jews are of European origin").
In addition, to avoid cluttering the lead with all of this, I would remove this from the lead completely and keep it restricted to the Genetics section of the article. Debresser ( talk)
Agreed 100% with Evildoer and Debresser. This is blatant POV pushing, and none of this should be in the LEDE in the first place. It should be moved to the Genetics section forthwith. Ankh. Morpork 18:26, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
This conversation seems to be some kind of statement on maternal vs. paternal genetic lineage, as if maternal lineage is somehow less pure, more muddy. Please do not rank one above the other, individuals carry genes from both parents and there should be no implication of hierarchy or judgment about father vs. mothers. There seems to be a subtle bashing of maternal lineage results because they don't say what some editors want them to say. Liz Read! Talk! 22:52, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Is there consensus for removing this from the lead and keep this restricted to the genetics section? If so, would all agree if I did this, or do we want to invite some other editor? Debresser ( talk) 20:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
The Ashkenazim therefore resemble Jewish communities in Eastern Africa and India, and possibly also others across the Near East, Caucasus and Central Asia, which also carry a substantial fraction of maternal lineages from their ‘host’ communities11, 25. Despite widely differing interpretations of autosomal data, these results in fact fit well with genome-wide studies, which imply a significant European component, with particularly close relationships to Italians3, 4, 6, 7. As might be expected from the autosomal picture, Y-chromosome studies generally show the opposite trend to mtDNA (with a predominantly Near Eastern source) with the exception of the large fraction of European ancestry seen in Ashkenazi Levites22. . . .There is surprisingly little evidence for any significant founder event from the Near East. Fewer than 10% of the Ashkenazi mtDNAs can be assigned to a Near Eastern source with any confidence, and these are found at very low frequencies (Fig. 2).'
The idea is not to remove the genetic study in question. It is to edit the corresponding passage so that it better reflects its conclusions. As it stands, the article does not fulfill this requirement. That's what we're concerned about. Ankh. Morpork 17:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Scientific studies differ on their origins, with some DNA tests suggesting an origin in the Israelite tribes of the Middle East,[12][13][14][15][16][17][18] while another DNA test suggests that Ashkenazi Jews are mainly of European origin.[10][11][19][20][21][22] The forefathers of Ashkenazi Jews are thought to have begun settling along the Rhine in Germany in the year 321[23][23][24][25][26] and in Rome in 139 B.C.
(a) 'scientific studies'. Why mention scientific studies and ignore historical studies. Why does science have a privilege here in the lead? (b) Note 12-18. Jared Diamond's link is to somebody's typescript, not the journal. Most of the notes, for the pro and contra, are dubious (the Jewish expulsion in CE 135 is not widely endorsed by modern scholarship, since it is a canted spin on the fact Jews were disallowed in Jerusalem, not expelled in a diaspora that, for centuries had spread all over the Middle East and the Mediterranean. Much of the notes, in short, show signs of nervousness. But I must have dinner. Nishidani ( talk) 18:06, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I have to agree with the author above me. All of the laws that were made against Jews by emperor Hadrian in 135 C.E were repealed when Hadrian died three years later by successor, all laws except the law which Forbade Jews to enter Jerusalem except on the 9th of Ab. hundreds of years prior to both rebellions Jews were already living in southern Europe. Guy355 ( talk) 19:05, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Here is the list of genetic studies done from 2000-2012 with some quotes:
List of studies
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Hammer and all [3]
flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non- Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.
"It is believed that the majority of contemporary Jews descended from the ancient Israelites that had lived in the historic land of Israel until ∼2000 years ago. Many of the Jewish diaspora communities were separated from each other for hundreds of years. Therefore, some divergence due to genetic drift and/or admixture could be expected. However, although Ashkenazi Jews were found to differ slightly from Sephardic and Kurdish Jews, it is noteworthy that there is, overall, a high degree of genetic affinity among the three Jewish communities. Moreover, neither Ashkenazi nor Sephardic Jews cluster adjacent to their former host populations, a finding that argues against substantial admixture.In our sample, this low-level gene flow may be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes, which are found at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews.. " [6]
"Here we show that within Americans of European ancestry there is a perfect genetic corollary of Jewish ancestry which, in principle, would permit near perfect genetic inference of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. In fact, even subjects with a single Jewish grandparent can be statistically distinguished from those without Jewish ancestry. We also found that subjects with Jewish ancestry were slightly more heterozygous than the subjects with no Jewish ancestry, suggesting that the genetic distinction between Jews and non-Jews may be more attributable to a Near-Eastern origin for Jewish populations than to population bottlenecks."
"A 2004 study by Shen et al. compared the Y-DNA and DNA-mt Samaritans of 12 men with those of 158 men who were not Samaritans, divided between 6 Jewish populations (Ashkenazi origin, Moroccan, Libyan, Ethiopian, Iraqi and Yemeni) and 2 non-Jewish populations from Israel (Druze and Arab). The study concludes that significant similarities exist between paternal lines of Jews and Samaritans, but the maternal lines differ between the two populations. The pair-wise genetic distances (Fst) between 11 populations from AMOVA applied to the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial data. For the Y-chromosome, all Jewish groups, except for the Ethiopians, are closely related to each other. They do not differ significantly from Samaritans (0.041) and Druze (0.033), but are different from Palestinians (0.163), Africans (0.219), and Europeans (0.111). Nevertheless, the data in this study indicated that the Samaritan and Jewish Y-chromosomes have a greater affinity than do those of the Samaritans and their geographical neighbors, the Palestinians."
"We perform a genome-wide population-genetic study of Jewish populations, analyzing 678 autosomal microsatellite loci in 78 individuals from four Jewish groups together with similar data on 321 individuals from 12 non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations. ... We find that the Jewish populations show a high level of genetic similarity to each other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population structure. Further, Bayesian clustering, neighbor-joining trees, and multidimensional scaling place the Jewish populations as intermediate between the non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations. ... These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry...Jewish populations show somewhat greater similarity" to Palestinians, Druze and Bedouins than to the European populations, the most similar to the Jewish populations is the Palestinian population".
"Ashkenazi Jews represent the largest Jewish community and traditionally trace their origin to the ancient Hebrews who lived in the Holy Land over 3000 years ago. Ashkenazi Jews are among the groups most intensively studied by population geneticists. Here, main genetic findings and their implications to the history of Ashkenazim are presented reflecting in a way major developments in population genetics as a discipline. Altogether, Ashkenazi Jews appear as a relatively homogenous population which has retained its identity despite nearly 2000 years of isolation and is closely related to other Jewish communities tracing their common origin to the Middle East."
In conclusion, we demonstrate that 46.1% (95% CI = 39–53%) of Cohanim carry Y chromosomes belonging to a single paternal lineage (J-P58*) that likely originated in the Near East well before the dispersal of Jewish groups in the Diaspora. Support for a Near Eastern origin of this lineage comes from its high frequency in our sample of Bedouins, Yemenis (67%), and Jordanians (55%) and its precipitous drop in frequency as one moves away from Saudi Arabia and the Near East (Fig. 4). Moreover, there is a striking contrast between the relatively high frequency of J-58* in Jewish populations (~20%) and Cohanim (~46%) and its vanishingly low frequency in our sample of non-Jewish populations that hosted Jewish diaspora communities outside of the Near East. An extended Cohen Modal Haplotype accounts for 64.6% of chromosomes with the J-P58* background, and 29.8% (95% CI = 23–36%) of Cohanim Y chromosomes surveyed here. These results also confirm that lineages characterized by the 6 Y-STRs used to define the original CMH are associated with two divergent sub-clades within haplogroup J and, thus, cannot be assumed to represent a single recently expanding paternal lineage. By combining information from a sufficient number of SNPs and STRs in a large sample of Jewish and non-Jewish populations we are able to resolve the phylogenetic position of the CMH, and pinpoint its geographic distribution. Our estimates of the coalescence time also lend support to the hypothesis that the extended CMH represents a unique founding lineage of the ancient Hebrews that has been paternally inherited along with the Jewish priesthood"
Lucotte G, David F, Berriche S. Source International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France. Abstract DNA samples from Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews were studied with the Y-chromosome-specific DNA probes p49f and p49a to screen for restriction fragment length polymorphisms and haplotypes. Two haplotypes (VII and VIII) are the most widespread, representing about 50% of the total number of haplotypes in Jews. The major haplotype in Oriental Jews is haplotype VIII (85.1%); haplotype VIII is also the major haplotype in the Djerban Jews (77.5%) (Djerban Jews represent probably one of the oldest Jewish communities). Together these results confirm that haplotype VIII is the ancestral haplotype in Jews."
"Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only 4 women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry"
"...The results also reveal a finer population substructure in which each of 7 Jewish populations studied here form distinctive clusters - in each instance within group Fst was smaller than between group, although some groups (Iranian, Iraqi) demonstrated greater within group diversity and even sub-clusters, based on village of origin. By pairwise Fst analysis, the Jewish groups are closest to Southern Europeans (i.e. Tuscan Italians) and to Druze, Bedouins, Palestinians. Interestingly, the distance to the closest Southern European population follows the order from proximal to distal: Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Syrian, Iraqi, and Iranian, which reflects historical admixture with local communities. STRUCTURE results show that the Jewish Diaspora groups all demonstrated Middle Eastern ancestry" The study examines genetic markers spread across the entire genome — the complete set of genetic instructions for making a human — and shows that the Jewish groups share large swaths of DNA, indicating close relationships. Comparison with genetic data from non-Jewish groups indicates that all the Jewish groups originated in the Middle East. From there, groups of Jews moved to other parts of the world in migrations collectively known as the Diaspora.
A striking finding from our study is the consistent detection of 3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups we studied, Ashkenazis (from northern Europe), Sephardis (from Italy, Turkey and Greece), and Mizrahis (from Syria, Iran and Iraq). This pattern has not been detected in previous analyses of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome data [7], and although it can be seen when re-examining published results of STRUCTURE-like analyses of autosomal data, it was not highlighted in those studies, or shown to unambiguously reflect sub-Saharan African admixture [15], [38]. We estimate that the average date of the mixture of 72 generations (~2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation [30]) is older than that in Southern Europeans or other Levantines. The point estimates over all 8 populations are between 1,600–3,400 years ago, but with largely overlapping confidence intervals. It is intriguing that the Mizrahi Irani and Iraqi Jews—who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago [39], [40]—share the signal of African admixture. (An important caveat is that there is significant heterogeneity in the dates of African mixture in various Jewish populations.) A parsimonious explanation for these observations is that they reflect a history in which many of the Jewish groups descend from a common ancestral population which was itself admixed with Africans, prior to the beginning of the Jewish diaspora that occurred in 8th to 6th century BC
"North African Jews are more closely related to Jews from other parts of the world than they are to most of their non-Jewish neighbors in North Africa, a study has found. North African Jewish Populations Form Distinctive Clusters with Genetic Proximity to Each Other and to European and Middle Eastern Jewish Groups. SNP data were generated for 509 unrelated individuals (60.5% female) from the 15 Jewish populations (Table 1). These SNP data were merged with selected datasets from the Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) to examine the genetic structure of Jewish populations in both global and regional contexts (Fig. 1 and SI Appendix, Fig. S1). The first two principal components of worldwide populations showed that the North African Jewish populations clustered with the European and Middle Eastern Jewish groups and European non-Jewish groups, but not with the North African non-Jewish groups, suggesting origins distinctive from the latter... The relationships of the Jewish communities were outlined further by the IBD sharing across populations [Fig. 3B and SI Appendix, Tables S1 (lower triangle) and S4], because the Jewish groups generally demonstrated closer relatedness with other Jewish communities than with geographically near non- Jewish populations." |
I mentioned now all genetic studies carried out so far. When I said Middle Eastern origin, I did not mean that AJ are genetically pure. Origin does not exclude admixture, as in the case of all other people. Also, there are few academic books from population genetics which do summarize this question like: Shriver, Tony N. Frudakis D. (2008). Molecular photofitting : predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA P:383-390 which was used as one of sources. [10]-- Tritomex ( talk) 21:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, the LEDE you have proposed still has two problems. 1) the DNA test concludes that maternal origins are mainly Western European, and that's what the LEDE should say but it doesn't. 2) The number of secondary sources used, especially in relation to the previous passage concerning Israelitic origins which contain a variety of different studies and historical sources. This gives the appearance of padding and violates WP:UNDUE. Ankh. Morpork 14:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
[[User:Jeppiz|Jeppiz] Thank you for your comments. Although I agree with most you have said, I must state that based on my knowledge most of the X chromosome studies carried out on AJ females did not suggest European female lineage. In fact, this hypothesis was first proposed by well respected geneticist David B. Goldstein from the Duke University and based on his analysis the only genetic study which supports this hypothesis is the one carried out by Richards. Goldstein on other hand claimed that regarding Richards study "estimate that 80% of Ashkenazi Jewish Mt-DNA is European was not statistically justified given the random rise and fall of mitochondrial DNA lineages". Two identical studies which used the same techniques namely that of Behar and Feder did not found support for European maternal origin of AJ females. So in my view, while the standing of population genetics on Middle Eastern origin of Y chromosome and autusomes of AJ is pretty clear, this is not yet the case regarding mtDNA, whose origin remains uncertain. I have also to agree fully with AnkhMorpork, there are WP:UNDUE problems with current wording and even maybe WP:OR problems as well. 1 ) The Israelite origin is supported (as I presented above also) with: 1) historic sources 2) academic books from population genetics 3) Y chromosome studies 4) autosome chromosome studies and 5) X chromosomes (mtDNA) studies as well. On the other hand the European origin is sourced with only one mt DNA study carried out by Richards. Actually Richards study can only be used as source of maternal and not general origin. Also Richards (as all mt DNA) studies found also a minoritarian Middle Eastern origin among AJ too.The current wording also missed to say that the majority of genetic studies are in support of ME origin of AJ Tritomex ( talk) 20:19, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to sound rude, but is there an agreement on anything concerning this subject? Guy355 ( talk) 16:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
@Debresser, if there's only one study that supports a mainly European origin for Ashkenazim, and dozens in support of a Middle Eastern origin, that means the former is a minority view and the article should naturally give emphasis to the consensus view. The cited study doesn't even support that. It says maternal origins are mainly European. Ankh. Morpork 18:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
@Nishidani, Ashkenazim are a subgroup of Jews, who originate in the Fertile Crescent. The majority of genetic studies and historical sources support this conclusion, so it makes perfect sense to include that in the LEDE. In terms of genetics, the consensus view indicates that Ashkenazim are genetically Middle Eastern (specifically Levantine) with varying degrees of admixture from Europeans, especially Southern Europeans. Ashkenazi is Hebrew for Germany, just as Sephardi is Hebrew for Spain and Mizrahi for Eastern. Yiddish is a high Germanic language with Hebrew, Aramaic, and Slavic elements, written in the Hebrew alphabet. Ankh. Morpork 18:33, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
@Nishidani, nobody has said anything about Ashkenazim being pure. The LEDE indicated, until the passage was removed, that there was a study which concluded Ashkenazim were mainly European. A cursory look at the study would show this is not the case, and some editors took issue with this, and rightly so. Lastly, genetic studies qualify as WP:RS, so we are not in a position to dismiss them as "garbage". Ankh. Morpork 18:41, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
The LEDE section looks fine, for now. I would revise the wording a bit ie "Consensus among geneticists place Ashkenazi Jewish origins in the Levant, although details vary". Something to that effect. Ankh. Morpork 18:56, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Morpork this recent study which suggests that the Maternal roots of Ashkenazis can be traced mainly to Europe studied much more than previous studies. On science magazine the title was "did Ashkenazis originate in Italy?", I heard they have a reputation of knowing a thing or two about this subject. Besides, this study was not the only one, another study published by NYT suggests a varying amount of European ancestry on the Ashkenazi maternal side, from about 30% to 60%, with north Italians showing the greatest genetic proximity to Ashkenazis and Sepharadis. Also, a 2010 autosomal study concluded about 85% European ancestry in the autosomal of Ashkenazis and Sepharadis. Guy355 ( talk) 20:15, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh yeah, and speaking of historical records, Josephus Flavius claims there have been about 6 million Jews throughout the Roman empire, with only 500,000 in Judea, and he also mentions a very large community in the Italian peninsula. Also, there was a large population of so called "god fearers", people who partially practiced Judaism, but have not went through a full conversion, if male they were not circumcised yet, and in general the god fearers did not keep the Kosher dietary law. It was rumored that emperor Vaspian's wife was a god fearer. Guy355 ( talk) 21:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
"A 2006 study by Seldin et al. used over five thousand autosomal SNPs to demonstrate European genetic substructure. The results showed "a consistent and reproducible distinction between ‘northern’ and ‘southern’ European population groups". Most northern, central, and eastern Europeans (Finns, Swedes, English, Irish, Germans, and Ukrainians) showed >90% in the ‘northern’ population group, while most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Spaniards) showed >85% in the 'southern' group. Both Ashkenazi Jews as well as Sephardic Jews showed >85% membership in the "southern" group. Referring to the Jews clustering with southern Europeans, the authors state the results were "consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups".[127]". Guy355 ( talk) 06:35, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
before the Middle Ages from the river Loire in the center of France to the Rhineland in the north - thus the term also includes the original Jews of France from the medieval period.[17][18]
I apologize for my error. This subject is still debated, therefore I reckon we should keep an open mind, science and technology get better everyday. Guy355 ( talk) 08:39, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
There is way too much genetic technical detail in the main Ashkenazi article. This should all go into a sub-article, with a summary in the main article. Keith McClary ( talk) 03:44, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
It was made clear in the discussion above that that section was to be deleted due to gross misinterpretation of the citations. But it seems that he/she got butthurt and found a refugee location for it. I've at least tried to rid the sentence that indicates "Ashkenazi" Jews living in Germany as early as 321 BC. But neither Galassi nor Debresser will allow this to happen. The latter even said: "Stop telling us to consult the talkpage for your POV edits. There are 3 sources there!" in this edit here here. So why am I being accused of creating POV edits when those who revert me refuse to co-operate? In fact, it seems that neither Galassi nor Debresser edit. All they do is just wait and revert edits that doesn't fit into their liking. Khazar ( talk) 05:01, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
In the section "Female lineages: Mitochondrial DNA," I notice that some of the text in the last paragraph, beginning "Variation in Ashkenazi mtDNA is highly distinctive," seems to have been lifted and slightly modified. but without attribution, from the 2013 study mentioned in the paragraph above it http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html.
I have only casually read this page--there may be other instances that I haven't seen.
Dcb2 ( talk) 05:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC) Dcb2
That is true, but the changes seems to be legitimate paraphrasing, which is not a problem and rather encouraged. Nevertheless, it would be a good idea to see if the source supports the current flow of argument. Debresser ( talk) 16:54, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
There appear to be contributors who read discussions on this talk page, are 'citing' them in order to make POV changes to the article, yet have not actually engaged with anyone on the talk page.
Rather than having to deal with an edit war, perhaps some form communique could be left here. In the meantime, please do not change the content of the article before the fact. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:08, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
The lead's fine, thanks to some intelligent compromises with Debresser. In my view, most of the section on pre-Ashkenazi Jews, being either false (first line to cite just one example), poorly sourced, or irrelevant (Baghdad!!? etc.,) or unnecessary (compare Shira Schoenberg's Ashkenazim for the Jewish Virtual Library which is exemplary in this regard). The function of this section is to insinuate genetic continuity of the blood-stock. One could start with Charlemagne with a short para, always, however, using academic works which link these to the Ashkenazim emerging in sources ca.1000 CE. I've tried to do this several times, but have been systematically reverted by one POV-pusher in particular. Some people cannot help wishing to prove that the Ashkenazi descended lineally from the 12 tribes of Israel. This is a dead meme in all but the shoddiest hasbara. Jews everywhere, throughout history, have traditionally had a deep sense of connection with the world of the Bible, which mixes legend and history, mostly composed in Babylon, about the past, but to convert this into race theories of direct continuous blood descent from a few tribes around 900BC. is not only jejune but ideologically obtuse. The Ashkenazim embrace two wings, the Western and Eastern, and n the 19th century, the former disowned the idea that Jews were a 'nation' )(Volkstamm), and insisted that a Jew was defined by common adherence to a religion. The latter insisted on a ghettoized sense of tradition, intermarriage, non-assimilation and religious traditionalism, and ancestry was crucial for them. What we have in this section is the residue of the POV of the latter, abetted by a concern to justify Israel post 1948. Israel needs no justification along blood lines, or theories of descent, and such ideological interests in the descent meme should not disturb our encyclopedic ambitions, which do well to follow Schoenberg's example. Nishidani ( talk) 13:41, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Nishidani, Jews were defined as a nation or ethnic group long before the establishment of the State of Israel. Jews are not merely practitioners of Judaism, but a people that share ancestry, a culture, a language and an ancestral homeland in which Jews have maintained a continuous presence for three-thousand plus years. What you call hasbara is, in reality, anthropological and archeological fact. Gilad55 ( talk) 00:57, 23 February 2014 (UTC)Gilad55
Gilad55 Ashkenazi's Sepharadics and Mizrahis (excluding Yemenite Jews) share a close genetic proximity and they all have middle eastern ancestry, but their culture is very different, the way they pray, the way they look and the languages that they developed (Yiddish, Ladino, Judeo Arabic etc)are completely different, that being said, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Chinese Jews, Indian Jews (from India) share a closer genetic proximity to their non Jewish countrymen than they do to Ashkenazis, Sepharadics and Mizrahis. Also, it should be noted, that Ashkenazis and Sepharadics have a large European component, and a close genetic proximity to Tuscans, Greeks and north Italians, my DNA results, on Gedmatch, Admixture, with link to Oracle, by proportions, Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 puts me closest to Ashkenazis, then Sepharadics, and then Tuscans, then Greeks, and then North Italians (rather than Arabs or the Druze), my largest component at 48.55 percent is native European (with the Western European and Southern European components being the largest), the following largest component at 34 percent is near eastern (with the largest component being Eastern Mediterranean followed by Red sea i.e south west Asian) and the last largest component at 16% is west Asian i.e west Caucasian. The native European component being the dominant, is confirmed by a 2013 study published by NYT concluding the European component at 30-60 percent (I fit in the ratio) among Ashkenazi and Sepharadic populations with a close genetic proximity to Italians (as you may see after Ashkenazis and Sepharadics I share a close genetic proximity to modern Tuscans i.e central Italians, followed by modern Greeks, followed by modern North Italians). And lastly, according to the Torah, the "mothers" of Israel were not born Jewish (Rachel, Leah etc), instead,, they were converted, and to this day, non Jews converted to Judaism are considered equally Jewish to people born to a Jewish mum, therefore I doubt converting local women would in any way harm the Jew's claim to the land of Israel according to the eyes of Jews to 2,000 years ago at least, it also should be noted that the term "Jews" and the following of the full Torah exist only since the Babylonian captivity, before that the Israelites worshiped many gods besides "Elohim", they were, Canaanite, Elohim is a Canaanite god, and they worshiped another Canaanite god, Asherah, Hebrew is a Canaanite language, it's very close to Phoenician, another Canaanite language. And finally, according to the Roman Jewish historian Josephus Flavius, there were large conversions in the Roman empire, and most Jews seemed to live in southern Europe. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 11:30, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
The idea of race exists only since the late 18th century, Jews were considered a nation since forever, but not a race.
84.111.196.56 (
talk)
12:30, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Apparently the need to use the talk mode in order to edit controversial subjects is gone, and apparently users may now cherry pick what they want in the first part of an article. -_- 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 14:44, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
There are some users here who seem to completely ignore consensus and additional articles. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 12:32, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
It appears like the need to use the talk part of the article is gone.
84.111.196.56 (
talk)
14:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy Thank you very much for clearing my doubts up. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 05:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome.
84.111.196.56 (
talk)
14:35, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
The subject of this article is 'Ashkenazi Jews'. It is not 'DNA profiling the Ashkenazi Jews', although to a reader it would certainly seem to be a major concern as that particular subject accounts for virtually half the article. I will remind everyone (again) that there is an article explicitly dealing with DNA profiling already in existence on Wikipedia, and is appropriately called Genetic studies on Jews. Judging by the numerous interpretations of what is significant and what is not significant, as well as the lack of participation in expanding the Ashkenazi Jewish section of the relevant article by those developing it here, IMHO it looks very much as if this is an attempt by autodidacts to fly under the radar by usurping the subject of this article.
WP:OFFTOPIC - There have been ample arguments by other contributors as to why tracts of DNA parsing is inappropriate when considering what Jewishness is or isn't, as well as it being made clear that self-identification (as well as hundreds of years of intermarriage/interbreeding with other haplogroups) should be considered as you appear to be rewriting the concept of ethnicity and belief systems according to the readings of a science which has yet to gather data from a significant sample group. Sheesh! If science is of such great significance to Jewishness, please provide scientific proof of God, the fact that the world is only several thousand years old (ad infinitum) and explain why empirical sciences seem to bear no significance anywhere other than where it suits you. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 23:45, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Iryana Harpy, You labor under the delusion that Jews are nothing but co-religionists when we are, in fact, an ethno-religious group. Judaism is a feature of, but not the determinator of Jewish ethnic identity and the ME descent of Jews. DNA evidence affirms that most Jews are related in the order of third and fifth cousins and therefore admissible in a discussion of ethnicity and descent. Raising Judaism as a topic in this discussion is a distraction, not genetic studies. Gilad55 ( talk) 05:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)Gilad55
Iryana, It's just that you seem to know so much about my ethnicity, I thought it proper to bone up on yours. You strike me as Polish Catholic, but I could be wrong. Gilad55 ( talk) 22:01, 12 March 2014 (UTC)Gilad55
The lede passage is not contingent on genetics. I'm baffled as to why all of the other factors (such as self-identity, culture, language) are being omitted in this discussion. The source I used was not a genetic one. Evildoer187 ( talk) 10:34, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Ashkenazim trace their origins to the ancient Israelites. No serious scholar disputes this. The cultural, linguistic etc differences between them and other Jews in the diaspora are not relevant to their origins. Evildoer187 ( talk) 10:39, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Evildoer, you're not talking of genetics are you? I'm sorry, there's been a misunderstanding... You were talking of identity and cultural heritage, and the fact that the Ashkenazis (and the proto Ashkenazis) throughout the last 2,000 years, have held the Torah in high regard, and in their Israelite cultural and linguistic heritage, I'm deeply sorry, I have misinterpreted your argument, yes, it's true that the cultural and linguistic heritage among Ashkenazis is with the Israelites, I'm again deeply sorry of the misunderstanding, yes I agree that the stuff about the genetic origins needs to be put in the "genetic studies on Jews" article. Again, I'm deeply sorry. :-( 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 14:05, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay, cool. :-) 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 18:16, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
The source I used was from Jewish Virtual Library, and had nothing to do with genetics. DNA studies are good secondary sources, but they shouldn't even be necessary. No other people in history have had so many people in so many places try to rewrite or deny their origins. Evildoer187 ( talk) 20:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
There's another problem with the "Notable Ashkenazim" section. It simply mentions their disportionately high record of achievements in relation to their small population size. What's the point of mentioning Nobel prizes and Fields medals if the reader doesn't know what they were for? Only the iconic Einstien is mentioned and there should be more mentions of important Ashkenazi Jewish contributions/inventions/discoveries as well those who contributed in other fields like literature. It's a shame Lev Ladau, Dennis Gabor, and Sergei Brin are left unmentioned. Khazar ( talk) 00:36, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Evildoer I completely agree, culture and linguistics should be the first source, and these prove a line going back to the Israelites of antiquity, with genetic sources, proving a near eastern and European source, being secondary, again, it was a misunderstanding, I didn't know you weren't talking on genetics, I thought you were. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 05:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps we may now discuss the possibility of re-inclusion of that main passage. Evildoer187 ( talk) 06:51, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I think we do have a consensus. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 11:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Whatever you kids are arguing about, Jews are a complicated thing. You have people who wear black hats and all and they think you are not Jewish if you eat pork, even if both your parents speak freakin' Yiddish, those are the dudes who see it as a religious thing. There are also dudes who it pork and shrimps and will enjoy a good milkshake after a burger, and they also consider themselves Jewish, because onee or both of their parents are Jewish, those dudes see it as an ethnicity DNA thing.
My point is, the majority of Ashkenazi Jews today belong to the second group, and that means information about DNA is very important to the article. Jews can be a religious identity, or a DNA ethnicity or whatever identity, and you can't delete information just because it doesn't suit you. I mean, what are you, the freakin' inquisition? When someone tells a story ( talk) 23:39, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
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The following passage in the lead paragraph ("Some DNA tests suggest that Ashkenazi Jews are mainly of European origin") is highly problematic. First off, the citations provided for it only include one DNA study, with the rest consisting of secondary news articles and journals reporting on the study. Therefore, the words "Some DNA tests" are misleading since there is, in fact, only one DNA test cited. Take, in contrast, this passage which precedes it ("some DNA tests suggesting an origin in the Israelite tribes of the Middle East"). The sources used here are much more varied, with more than one DNA study cited, along with a couple of historical sources. This by itself raises red flags for WP:UNDUE and WP:MINORITY.
And now for the heart of the matter. The genetic study used in support of the former passage (i.e. "Some DNA tests suggest that Ashkenazi Jews are mainly of European origin") does not arrive at this conclusion. Rather, it suggests that Ashkenazi maternal/mtDNA origins are mainly traceable to Europe. It does not say that Ashkenazim are mainly European in origin. The passage I quoted omits any mention of mtDNA, which was the main focus of the study. So whoever posted this is either manipulating the source material, or simply did not read the study. I hope I'm not the only one who is concerned about this.
As for the related ethnic groups template, what is the criteria for inclusion? My initial impression was that it entailed sharing common geographic origins, culture, linguistic similarities, etc in addition to genetics. Some extra sources should be provided for all ethnic groups included, because the only citations are genetic studies. But overall, we need to establish some solid criteria for this, so that we may avert future disputes. Evildoer187 ( talk) 17:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I have slightly rewritten the introduction to reflect the fact which all seem to agree upon that it was only 1 test. Debresser ( talk) 22:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree that saying that "Ashkenazi Jews are of European origin" is not the same as saying "Ashkenazi maternal/mtDNA origins are mainly traceable to Europe". I would like some expert opinion on the meaning of that sentence.
I would suggest to split the statement in two: one part bringing the test and its conclusion ("Ashkenazi maternal/mtDNA origins are mainly traceable to Europe"), and another bringing the more popular sources' interpretation ("Ashkenazi Jews are of European origin").
In addition, to avoid cluttering the lead with all of this, I would remove this from the lead completely and keep it restricted to the Genetics section of the article. Debresser ( talk)
Agreed 100% with Evildoer and Debresser. This is blatant POV pushing, and none of this should be in the LEDE in the first place. It should be moved to the Genetics section forthwith. Ankh. Morpork 18:26, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
This conversation seems to be some kind of statement on maternal vs. paternal genetic lineage, as if maternal lineage is somehow less pure, more muddy. Please do not rank one above the other, individuals carry genes from both parents and there should be no implication of hierarchy or judgment about father vs. mothers. There seems to be a subtle bashing of maternal lineage results because they don't say what some editors want them to say. Liz Read! Talk! 22:52, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Is there consensus for removing this from the lead and keep this restricted to the genetics section? If so, would all agree if I did this, or do we want to invite some other editor? Debresser ( talk) 20:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
The Ashkenazim therefore resemble Jewish communities in Eastern Africa and India, and possibly also others across the Near East, Caucasus and Central Asia, which also carry a substantial fraction of maternal lineages from their ‘host’ communities11, 25. Despite widely differing interpretations of autosomal data, these results in fact fit well with genome-wide studies, which imply a significant European component, with particularly close relationships to Italians3, 4, 6, 7. As might be expected from the autosomal picture, Y-chromosome studies generally show the opposite trend to mtDNA (with a predominantly Near Eastern source) with the exception of the large fraction of European ancestry seen in Ashkenazi Levites22. . . .There is surprisingly little evidence for any significant founder event from the Near East. Fewer than 10% of the Ashkenazi mtDNAs can be assigned to a Near Eastern source with any confidence, and these are found at very low frequencies (Fig. 2).'
The idea is not to remove the genetic study in question. It is to edit the corresponding passage so that it better reflects its conclusions. As it stands, the article does not fulfill this requirement. That's what we're concerned about. Ankh. Morpork 17:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Scientific studies differ on their origins, with some DNA tests suggesting an origin in the Israelite tribes of the Middle East,[12][13][14][15][16][17][18] while another DNA test suggests that Ashkenazi Jews are mainly of European origin.[10][11][19][20][21][22] The forefathers of Ashkenazi Jews are thought to have begun settling along the Rhine in Germany in the year 321[23][23][24][25][26] and in Rome in 139 B.C.
(a) 'scientific studies'. Why mention scientific studies and ignore historical studies. Why does science have a privilege here in the lead? (b) Note 12-18. Jared Diamond's link is to somebody's typescript, not the journal. Most of the notes, for the pro and contra, are dubious (the Jewish expulsion in CE 135 is not widely endorsed by modern scholarship, since it is a canted spin on the fact Jews were disallowed in Jerusalem, not expelled in a diaspora that, for centuries had spread all over the Middle East and the Mediterranean. Much of the notes, in short, show signs of nervousness. But I must have dinner. Nishidani ( talk) 18:06, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I have to agree with the author above me. All of the laws that were made against Jews by emperor Hadrian in 135 C.E were repealed when Hadrian died three years later by successor, all laws except the law which Forbade Jews to enter Jerusalem except on the 9th of Ab. hundreds of years prior to both rebellions Jews were already living in southern Europe. Guy355 ( talk) 19:05, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Here is the list of genetic studies done from 2000-2012 with some quotes:
List of studies
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Hammer and all [3]
flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non- Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.
"It is believed that the majority of contemporary Jews descended from the ancient Israelites that had lived in the historic land of Israel until ∼2000 years ago. Many of the Jewish diaspora communities were separated from each other for hundreds of years. Therefore, some divergence due to genetic drift and/or admixture could be expected. However, although Ashkenazi Jews were found to differ slightly from Sephardic and Kurdish Jews, it is noteworthy that there is, overall, a high degree of genetic affinity among the three Jewish communities. Moreover, neither Ashkenazi nor Sephardic Jews cluster adjacent to their former host populations, a finding that argues against substantial admixture.In our sample, this low-level gene flow may be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes, which are found at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews.. " [6]
"Here we show that within Americans of European ancestry there is a perfect genetic corollary of Jewish ancestry which, in principle, would permit near perfect genetic inference of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. In fact, even subjects with a single Jewish grandparent can be statistically distinguished from those without Jewish ancestry. We also found that subjects with Jewish ancestry were slightly more heterozygous than the subjects with no Jewish ancestry, suggesting that the genetic distinction between Jews and non-Jews may be more attributable to a Near-Eastern origin for Jewish populations than to population bottlenecks."
"A 2004 study by Shen et al. compared the Y-DNA and DNA-mt Samaritans of 12 men with those of 158 men who were not Samaritans, divided between 6 Jewish populations (Ashkenazi origin, Moroccan, Libyan, Ethiopian, Iraqi and Yemeni) and 2 non-Jewish populations from Israel (Druze and Arab). The study concludes that significant similarities exist between paternal lines of Jews and Samaritans, but the maternal lines differ between the two populations. The pair-wise genetic distances (Fst) between 11 populations from AMOVA applied to the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial data. For the Y-chromosome, all Jewish groups, except for the Ethiopians, are closely related to each other. They do not differ significantly from Samaritans (0.041) and Druze (0.033), but are different from Palestinians (0.163), Africans (0.219), and Europeans (0.111). Nevertheless, the data in this study indicated that the Samaritan and Jewish Y-chromosomes have a greater affinity than do those of the Samaritans and their geographical neighbors, the Palestinians."
"We perform a genome-wide population-genetic study of Jewish populations, analyzing 678 autosomal microsatellite loci in 78 individuals from four Jewish groups together with similar data on 321 individuals from 12 non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations. ... We find that the Jewish populations show a high level of genetic similarity to each other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population structure. Further, Bayesian clustering, neighbor-joining trees, and multidimensional scaling place the Jewish populations as intermediate between the non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations. ... These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry...Jewish populations show somewhat greater similarity" to Palestinians, Druze and Bedouins than to the European populations, the most similar to the Jewish populations is the Palestinian population".
"Ashkenazi Jews represent the largest Jewish community and traditionally trace their origin to the ancient Hebrews who lived in the Holy Land over 3000 years ago. Ashkenazi Jews are among the groups most intensively studied by population geneticists. Here, main genetic findings and their implications to the history of Ashkenazim are presented reflecting in a way major developments in population genetics as a discipline. Altogether, Ashkenazi Jews appear as a relatively homogenous population which has retained its identity despite nearly 2000 years of isolation and is closely related to other Jewish communities tracing their common origin to the Middle East."
In conclusion, we demonstrate that 46.1% (95% CI = 39–53%) of Cohanim carry Y chromosomes belonging to a single paternal lineage (J-P58*) that likely originated in the Near East well before the dispersal of Jewish groups in the Diaspora. Support for a Near Eastern origin of this lineage comes from its high frequency in our sample of Bedouins, Yemenis (67%), and Jordanians (55%) and its precipitous drop in frequency as one moves away from Saudi Arabia and the Near East (Fig. 4). Moreover, there is a striking contrast between the relatively high frequency of J-58* in Jewish populations (~20%) and Cohanim (~46%) and its vanishingly low frequency in our sample of non-Jewish populations that hosted Jewish diaspora communities outside of the Near East. An extended Cohen Modal Haplotype accounts for 64.6% of chromosomes with the J-P58* background, and 29.8% (95% CI = 23–36%) of Cohanim Y chromosomes surveyed here. These results also confirm that lineages characterized by the 6 Y-STRs used to define the original CMH are associated with two divergent sub-clades within haplogroup J and, thus, cannot be assumed to represent a single recently expanding paternal lineage. By combining information from a sufficient number of SNPs and STRs in a large sample of Jewish and non-Jewish populations we are able to resolve the phylogenetic position of the CMH, and pinpoint its geographic distribution. Our estimates of the coalescence time also lend support to the hypothesis that the extended CMH represents a unique founding lineage of the ancient Hebrews that has been paternally inherited along with the Jewish priesthood"
Lucotte G, David F, Berriche S. Source International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France. Abstract DNA samples from Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews were studied with the Y-chromosome-specific DNA probes p49f and p49a to screen for restriction fragment length polymorphisms and haplotypes. Two haplotypes (VII and VIII) are the most widespread, representing about 50% of the total number of haplotypes in Jews. The major haplotype in Oriental Jews is haplotype VIII (85.1%); haplotype VIII is also the major haplotype in the Djerban Jews (77.5%) (Djerban Jews represent probably one of the oldest Jewish communities). Together these results confirm that haplotype VIII is the ancestral haplotype in Jews."
"Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only 4 women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry"
"...The results also reveal a finer population substructure in which each of 7 Jewish populations studied here form distinctive clusters - in each instance within group Fst was smaller than between group, although some groups (Iranian, Iraqi) demonstrated greater within group diversity and even sub-clusters, based on village of origin. By pairwise Fst analysis, the Jewish groups are closest to Southern Europeans (i.e. Tuscan Italians) and to Druze, Bedouins, Palestinians. Interestingly, the distance to the closest Southern European population follows the order from proximal to distal: Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Syrian, Iraqi, and Iranian, which reflects historical admixture with local communities. STRUCTURE results show that the Jewish Diaspora groups all demonstrated Middle Eastern ancestry" The study examines genetic markers spread across the entire genome — the complete set of genetic instructions for making a human — and shows that the Jewish groups share large swaths of DNA, indicating close relationships. Comparison with genetic data from non-Jewish groups indicates that all the Jewish groups originated in the Middle East. From there, groups of Jews moved to other parts of the world in migrations collectively known as the Diaspora.
A striking finding from our study is the consistent detection of 3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups we studied, Ashkenazis (from northern Europe), Sephardis (from Italy, Turkey and Greece), and Mizrahis (from Syria, Iran and Iraq). This pattern has not been detected in previous analyses of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome data [7], and although it can be seen when re-examining published results of STRUCTURE-like analyses of autosomal data, it was not highlighted in those studies, or shown to unambiguously reflect sub-Saharan African admixture [15], [38]. We estimate that the average date of the mixture of 72 generations (~2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation [30]) is older than that in Southern Europeans or other Levantines. The point estimates over all 8 populations are between 1,600–3,400 years ago, but with largely overlapping confidence intervals. It is intriguing that the Mizrahi Irani and Iraqi Jews—who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago [39], [40]—share the signal of African admixture. (An important caveat is that there is significant heterogeneity in the dates of African mixture in various Jewish populations.) A parsimonious explanation for these observations is that they reflect a history in which many of the Jewish groups descend from a common ancestral population which was itself admixed with Africans, prior to the beginning of the Jewish diaspora that occurred in 8th to 6th century BC
"North African Jews are more closely related to Jews from other parts of the world than they are to most of their non-Jewish neighbors in North Africa, a study has found. North African Jewish Populations Form Distinctive Clusters with Genetic Proximity to Each Other and to European and Middle Eastern Jewish Groups. SNP data were generated for 509 unrelated individuals (60.5% female) from the 15 Jewish populations (Table 1). These SNP data were merged with selected datasets from the Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) to examine the genetic structure of Jewish populations in both global and regional contexts (Fig. 1 and SI Appendix, Fig. S1). The first two principal components of worldwide populations showed that the North African Jewish populations clustered with the European and Middle Eastern Jewish groups and European non-Jewish groups, but not with the North African non-Jewish groups, suggesting origins distinctive from the latter... The relationships of the Jewish communities were outlined further by the IBD sharing across populations [Fig. 3B and SI Appendix, Tables S1 (lower triangle) and S4], because the Jewish groups generally demonstrated closer relatedness with other Jewish communities than with geographically near non- Jewish populations." |
I mentioned now all genetic studies carried out so far. When I said Middle Eastern origin, I did not mean that AJ are genetically pure. Origin does not exclude admixture, as in the case of all other people. Also, there are few academic books from population genetics which do summarize this question like: Shriver, Tony N. Frudakis D. (2008). Molecular photofitting : predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA P:383-390 which was used as one of sources. [10]-- Tritomex ( talk) 21:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, the LEDE you have proposed still has two problems. 1) the DNA test concludes that maternal origins are mainly Western European, and that's what the LEDE should say but it doesn't. 2) The number of secondary sources used, especially in relation to the previous passage concerning Israelitic origins which contain a variety of different studies and historical sources. This gives the appearance of padding and violates WP:UNDUE. Ankh. Morpork 14:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
[[User:Jeppiz|Jeppiz] Thank you for your comments. Although I agree with most you have said, I must state that based on my knowledge most of the X chromosome studies carried out on AJ females did not suggest European female lineage. In fact, this hypothesis was first proposed by well respected geneticist David B. Goldstein from the Duke University and based on his analysis the only genetic study which supports this hypothesis is the one carried out by Richards. Goldstein on other hand claimed that regarding Richards study "estimate that 80% of Ashkenazi Jewish Mt-DNA is European was not statistically justified given the random rise and fall of mitochondrial DNA lineages". Two identical studies which used the same techniques namely that of Behar and Feder did not found support for European maternal origin of AJ females. So in my view, while the standing of population genetics on Middle Eastern origin of Y chromosome and autusomes of AJ is pretty clear, this is not yet the case regarding mtDNA, whose origin remains uncertain. I have also to agree fully with AnkhMorpork, there are WP:UNDUE problems with current wording and even maybe WP:OR problems as well. 1 ) The Israelite origin is supported (as I presented above also) with: 1) historic sources 2) academic books from population genetics 3) Y chromosome studies 4) autosome chromosome studies and 5) X chromosomes (mtDNA) studies as well. On the other hand the European origin is sourced with only one mt DNA study carried out by Richards. Actually Richards study can only be used as source of maternal and not general origin. Also Richards (as all mt DNA) studies found also a minoritarian Middle Eastern origin among AJ too.The current wording also missed to say that the majority of genetic studies are in support of ME origin of AJ Tritomex ( talk) 20:19, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to sound rude, but is there an agreement on anything concerning this subject? Guy355 ( talk) 16:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
@Debresser, if there's only one study that supports a mainly European origin for Ashkenazim, and dozens in support of a Middle Eastern origin, that means the former is a minority view and the article should naturally give emphasis to the consensus view. The cited study doesn't even support that. It says maternal origins are mainly European. Ankh. Morpork 18:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
@Nishidani, Ashkenazim are a subgroup of Jews, who originate in the Fertile Crescent. The majority of genetic studies and historical sources support this conclusion, so it makes perfect sense to include that in the LEDE. In terms of genetics, the consensus view indicates that Ashkenazim are genetically Middle Eastern (specifically Levantine) with varying degrees of admixture from Europeans, especially Southern Europeans. Ashkenazi is Hebrew for Germany, just as Sephardi is Hebrew for Spain and Mizrahi for Eastern. Yiddish is a high Germanic language with Hebrew, Aramaic, and Slavic elements, written in the Hebrew alphabet. Ankh. Morpork 18:33, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
@Nishidani, nobody has said anything about Ashkenazim being pure. The LEDE indicated, until the passage was removed, that there was a study which concluded Ashkenazim were mainly European. A cursory look at the study would show this is not the case, and some editors took issue with this, and rightly so. Lastly, genetic studies qualify as WP:RS, so we are not in a position to dismiss them as "garbage". Ankh. Morpork 18:41, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
The LEDE section looks fine, for now. I would revise the wording a bit ie "Consensus among geneticists place Ashkenazi Jewish origins in the Levant, although details vary". Something to that effect. Ankh. Morpork 18:56, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Morpork this recent study which suggests that the Maternal roots of Ashkenazis can be traced mainly to Europe studied much more than previous studies. On science magazine the title was "did Ashkenazis originate in Italy?", I heard they have a reputation of knowing a thing or two about this subject. Besides, this study was not the only one, another study published by NYT suggests a varying amount of European ancestry on the Ashkenazi maternal side, from about 30% to 60%, with north Italians showing the greatest genetic proximity to Ashkenazis and Sepharadis. Also, a 2010 autosomal study concluded about 85% European ancestry in the autosomal of Ashkenazis and Sepharadis. Guy355 ( talk) 20:15, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh yeah, and speaking of historical records, Josephus Flavius claims there have been about 6 million Jews throughout the Roman empire, with only 500,000 in Judea, and he also mentions a very large community in the Italian peninsula. Also, there was a large population of so called "god fearers", people who partially practiced Judaism, but have not went through a full conversion, if male they were not circumcised yet, and in general the god fearers did not keep the Kosher dietary law. It was rumored that emperor Vaspian's wife was a god fearer. Guy355 ( talk) 21:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
"A 2006 study by Seldin et al. used over five thousand autosomal SNPs to demonstrate European genetic substructure. The results showed "a consistent and reproducible distinction between ‘northern’ and ‘southern’ European population groups". Most northern, central, and eastern Europeans (Finns, Swedes, English, Irish, Germans, and Ukrainians) showed >90% in the ‘northern’ population group, while most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Spaniards) showed >85% in the 'southern' group. Both Ashkenazi Jews as well as Sephardic Jews showed >85% membership in the "southern" group. Referring to the Jews clustering with southern Europeans, the authors state the results were "consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups".[127]". Guy355 ( talk) 06:35, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
before the Middle Ages from the river Loire in the center of France to the Rhineland in the north - thus the term also includes the original Jews of France from the medieval period.[17][18]
I apologize for my error. This subject is still debated, therefore I reckon we should keep an open mind, science and technology get better everyday. Guy355 ( talk) 08:39, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
There is way too much genetic technical detail in the main Ashkenazi article. This should all go into a sub-article, with a summary in the main article. Keith McClary ( talk) 03:44, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
It was made clear in the discussion above that that section was to be deleted due to gross misinterpretation of the citations. But it seems that he/she got butthurt and found a refugee location for it. I've at least tried to rid the sentence that indicates "Ashkenazi" Jews living in Germany as early as 321 BC. But neither Galassi nor Debresser will allow this to happen. The latter even said: "Stop telling us to consult the talkpage for your POV edits. There are 3 sources there!" in this edit here here. So why am I being accused of creating POV edits when those who revert me refuse to co-operate? In fact, it seems that neither Galassi nor Debresser edit. All they do is just wait and revert edits that doesn't fit into their liking. Khazar ( talk) 05:01, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
In the section "Female lineages: Mitochondrial DNA," I notice that some of the text in the last paragraph, beginning "Variation in Ashkenazi mtDNA is highly distinctive," seems to have been lifted and slightly modified. but without attribution, from the 2013 study mentioned in the paragraph above it http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html.
I have only casually read this page--there may be other instances that I haven't seen.
Dcb2 ( talk) 05:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC) Dcb2
That is true, but the changes seems to be legitimate paraphrasing, which is not a problem and rather encouraged. Nevertheless, it would be a good idea to see if the source supports the current flow of argument. Debresser ( talk) 16:54, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
There appear to be contributors who read discussions on this talk page, are 'citing' them in order to make POV changes to the article, yet have not actually engaged with anyone on the talk page.
Rather than having to deal with an edit war, perhaps some form communique could be left here. In the meantime, please do not change the content of the article before the fact. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:08, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
The lead's fine, thanks to some intelligent compromises with Debresser. In my view, most of the section on pre-Ashkenazi Jews, being either false (first line to cite just one example), poorly sourced, or irrelevant (Baghdad!!? etc.,) or unnecessary (compare Shira Schoenberg's Ashkenazim for the Jewish Virtual Library which is exemplary in this regard). The function of this section is to insinuate genetic continuity of the blood-stock. One could start with Charlemagne with a short para, always, however, using academic works which link these to the Ashkenazim emerging in sources ca.1000 CE. I've tried to do this several times, but have been systematically reverted by one POV-pusher in particular. Some people cannot help wishing to prove that the Ashkenazi descended lineally from the 12 tribes of Israel. This is a dead meme in all but the shoddiest hasbara. Jews everywhere, throughout history, have traditionally had a deep sense of connection with the world of the Bible, which mixes legend and history, mostly composed in Babylon, about the past, but to convert this into race theories of direct continuous blood descent from a few tribes around 900BC. is not only jejune but ideologically obtuse. The Ashkenazim embrace two wings, the Western and Eastern, and n the 19th century, the former disowned the idea that Jews were a 'nation' )(Volkstamm), and insisted that a Jew was defined by common adherence to a religion. The latter insisted on a ghettoized sense of tradition, intermarriage, non-assimilation and religious traditionalism, and ancestry was crucial for them. What we have in this section is the residue of the POV of the latter, abetted by a concern to justify Israel post 1948. Israel needs no justification along blood lines, or theories of descent, and such ideological interests in the descent meme should not disturb our encyclopedic ambitions, which do well to follow Schoenberg's example. Nishidani ( talk) 13:41, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Nishidani, Jews were defined as a nation or ethnic group long before the establishment of the State of Israel. Jews are not merely practitioners of Judaism, but a people that share ancestry, a culture, a language and an ancestral homeland in which Jews have maintained a continuous presence for three-thousand plus years. What you call hasbara is, in reality, anthropological and archeological fact. Gilad55 ( talk) 00:57, 23 February 2014 (UTC)Gilad55
Gilad55 Ashkenazi's Sepharadics and Mizrahis (excluding Yemenite Jews) share a close genetic proximity and they all have middle eastern ancestry, but their culture is very different, the way they pray, the way they look and the languages that they developed (Yiddish, Ladino, Judeo Arabic etc)are completely different, that being said, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Chinese Jews, Indian Jews (from India) share a closer genetic proximity to their non Jewish countrymen than they do to Ashkenazis, Sepharadics and Mizrahis. Also, it should be noted, that Ashkenazis and Sepharadics have a large European component, and a close genetic proximity to Tuscans, Greeks and north Italians, my DNA results, on Gedmatch, Admixture, with link to Oracle, by proportions, Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 puts me closest to Ashkenazis, then Sepharadics, and then Tuscans, then Greeks, and then North Italians (rather than Arabs or the Druze), my largest component at 48.55 percent is native European (with the Western European and Southern European components being the largest), the following largest component at 34 percent is near eastern (with the largest component being Eastern Mediterranean followed by Red sea i.e south west Asian) and the last largest component at 16% is west Asian i.e west Caucasian. The native European component being the dominant, is confirmed by a 2013 study published by NYT concluding the European component at 30-60 percent (I fit in the ratio) among Ashkenazi and Sepharadic populations with a close genetic proximity to Italians (as you may see after Ashkenazis and Sepharadics I share a close genetic proximity to modern Tuscans i.e central Italians, followed by modern Greeks, followed by modern North Italians). And lastly, according to the Torah, the "mothers" of Israel were not born Jewish (Rachel, Leah etc), instead,, they were converted, and to this day, non Jews converted to Judaism are considered equally Jewish to people born to a Jewish mum, therefore I doubt converting local women would in any way harm the Jew's claim to the land of Israel according to the eyes of Jews to 2,000 years ago at least, it also should be noted that the term "Jews" and the following of the full Torah exist only since the Babylonian captivity, before that the Israelites worshiped many gods besides "Elohim", they were, Canaanite, Elohim is a Canaanite god, and they worshiped another Canaanite god, Asherah, Hebrew is a Canaanite language, it's very close to Phoenician, another Canaanite language. And finally, according to the Roman Jewish historian Josephus Flavius, there were large conversions in the Roman empire, and most Jews seemed to live in southern Europe. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 11:30, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
The idea of race exists only since the late 18th century, Jews were considered a nation since forever, but not a race.
84.111.196.56 (
talk)
12:30, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Apparently the need to use the talk mode in order to edit controversial subjects is gone, and apparently users may now cherry pick what they want in the first part of an article. -_- 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 14:44, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
There are some users here who seem to completely ignore consensus and additional articles. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 12:32, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
It appears like the need to use the talk part of the article is gone.
84.111.196.56 (
talk)
14:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy Thank you very much for clearing my doubts up. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 05:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome.
84.111.196.56 (
talk)
14:35, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
The subject of this article is 'Ashkenazi Jews'. It is not 'DNA profiling the Ashkenazi Jews', although to a reader it would certainly seem to be a major concern as that particular subject accounts for virtually half the article. I will remind everyone (again) that there is an article explicitly dealing with DNA profiling already in existence on Wikipedia, and is appropriately called Genetic studies on Jews. Judging by the numerous interpretations of what is significant and what is not significant, as well as the lack of participation in expanding the Ashkenazi Jewish section of the relevant article by those developing it here, IMHO it looks very much as if this is an attempt by autodidacts to fly under the radar by usurping the subject of this article.
WP:OFFTOPIC - There have been ample arguments by other contributors as to why tracts of DNA parsing is inappropriate when considering what Jewishness is or isn't, as well as it being made clear that self-identification (as well as hundreds of years of intermarriage/interbreeding with other haplogroups) should be considered as you appear to be rewriting the concept of ethnicity and belief systems according to the readings of a science which has yet to gather data from a significant sample group. Sheesh! If science is of such great significance to Jewishness, please provide scientific proof of God, the fact that the world is only several thousand years old (ad infinitum) and explain why empirical sciences seem to bear no significance anywhere other than where it suits you. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 23:45, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Iryana Harpy, You labor under the delusion that Jews are nothing but co-religionists when we are, in fact, an ethno-religious group. Judaism is a feature of, but not the determinator of Jewish ethnic identity and the ME descent of Jews. DNA evidence affirms that most Jews are related in the order of third and fifth cousins and therefore admissible in a discussion of ethnicity and descent. Raising Judaism as a topic in this discussion is a distraction, not genetic studies. Gilad55 ( talk) 05:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)Gilad55
Iryana, It's just that you seem to know so much about my ethnicity, I thought it proper to bone up on yours. You strike me as Polish Catholic, but I could be wrong. Gilad55 ( talk) 22:01, 12 March 2014 (UTC)Gilad55
The lede passage is not contingent on genetics. I'm baffled as to why all of the other factors (such as self-identity, culture, language) are being omitted in this discussion. The source I used was not a genetic one. Evildoer187 ( talk) 10:34, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Ashkenazim trace their origins to the ancient Israelites. No serious scholar disputes this. The cultural, linguistic etc differences between them and other Jews in the diaspora are not relevant to their origins. Evildoer187 ( talk) 10:39, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Evildoer, you're not talking of genetics are you? I'm sorry, there's been a misunderstanding... You were talking of identity and cultural heritage, and the fact that the Ashkenazis (and the proto Ashkenazis) throughout the last 2,000 years, have held the Torah in high regard, and in their Israelite cultural and linguistic heritage, I'm deeply sorry, I have misinterpreted your argument, yes, it's true that the cultural and linguistic heritage among Ashkenazis is with the Israelites, I'm again deeply sorry of the misunderstanding, yes I agree that the stuff about the genetic origins needs to be put in the "genetic studies on Jews" article. Again, I'm deeply sorry. :-( 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 14:05, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay, cool. :-) 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 18:16, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
The source I used was from Jewish Virtual Library, and had nothing to do with genetics. DNA studies are good secondary sources, but they shouldn't even be necessary. No other people in history have had so many people in so many places try to rewrite or deny their origins. Evildoer187 ( talk) 20:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
There's another problem with the "Notable Ashkenazim" section. It simply mentions their disportionately high record of achievements in relation to their small population size. What's the point of mentioning Nobel prizes and Fields medals if the reader doesn't know what they were for? Only the iconic Einstien is mentioned and there should be more mentions of important Ashkenazi Jewish contributions/inventions/discoveries as well those who contributed in other fields like literature. It's a shame Lev Ladau, Dennis Gabor, and Sergei Brin are left unmentioned. Khazar ( talk) 00:36, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Evildoer I completely agree, culture and linguistics should be the first source, and these prove a line going back to the Israelites of antiquity, with genetic sources, proving a near eastern and European source, being secondary, again, it was a misunderstanding, I didn't know you weren't talking on genetics, I thought you were. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 05:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps we may now discuss the possibility of re-inclusion of that main passage. Evildoer187 ( talk) 06:51, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I think we do have a consensus. 84.111.196.56 ( talk) 11:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Whatever you kids are arguing about, Jews are a complicated thing. You have people who wear black hats and all and they think you are not Jewish if you eat pork, even if both your parents speak freakin' Yiddish, those are the dudes who see it as a religious thing. There are also dudes who it pork and shrimps and will enjoy a good milkshake after a burger, and they also consider themselves Jewish, because onee or both of their parents are Jewish, those dudes see it as an ethnicity DNA thing.
My point is, the majority of Ashkenazi Jews today belong to the second group, and that means information about DNA is very important to the article. Jews can be a religious identity, or a DNA ethnicity or whatever identity, and you can't delete information just because it doesn't suit you. I mean, what are you, the freakin' inquisition? When someone tells a story ( talk) 23:39, 17 March 2014 (UTC)