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There are plenty of Hittite dictionaries and Lexicons online, I'd like to request someone add an etymology for Apasa after adding some of the sources that have researched the name, as Apasa and the later Greek word for the city seem closely related.
Hittite Etymological Dictionary Jaan Puhvel 1984 has appa- as uniformly related to "after" in a temporal sense', but Greek authors sometimes take it related to Ephor like Sparton's overseers.
As this is a harbor town, "looking after" may make more sense then "over seeing" and "see-er you see in landlocked capitals where the large hill is used as the name generator.
fyi - http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/hittite/en_lexique_hittite.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.179.151 ( talk) 19:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
- "Arzawa may be the origin for the name of the continent Asia."
- Not Arzawa, you're thinking of the other Luwian kingdom, Assuwa. It was Assuwa that gave its name to Asia.
- I agree. I have left the original quote in place for now, but have added Assuwa reference with original source.
- There is no indication Arzawa and Assuwa were separate kingdoms. Assuwa was the name of a coalition, and Arzawa may have been a successor state. Read Bryce (2005), Kelder (2010) and Cline (2013) for background on this. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:70BE:C450:3FF6:69B1 ( talk) 22:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- Was Argos that gave its name to Arzawa?
Note: The word "wa' means "land" in Hittite language.
- Was
Bellerophon, the Corinthian prince of Greek Mythology, the same person with
Uhhaziti, king of Arzawa?
- Was Arza-wa the "Argive land" (i.e. Achaean or Mycenean colonies), in Asia Minor (or else, Anatolia), in 16, 15, 14 centuries B.C. ?
- Was
Madduwatta or Maddywattes, the
Lukkan king of Arzawa (1360? B.C.) the same person with
Jobates, the king of
Lycia according to Greek Mythology?
- - Is exact the etymology, below ? :
Madduwatta < Maddu-watta < (Madd)u-watta < Uwatta < Ιοβάτα < Ιοβάτης (Jobates or Iobates)
- Was
Piyama-Kurunta, Arzawean general and son of Uhhaziti, the king of Arzawa, the same person with
Hippolochus (= he who is leader of cavalry, in Greek), the first son of
Bellerophon or with ("
Pegasus (the Corinthian)", the mythical horse of Bellerophon?
Note:
Hippolochus = Hippus ( = horse, in Greek) + lochus ( = group of soldiers, in Greek).
-- Ionn-Korr 11:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Altough English isn't my mother tongue, I have to make some corrections here:
-Argos and Arzawa are surely to be differentiated, not only are their names quite different, but also their locations are surely not identical. Altough the geography of the Arzawa-lands is difficult, it is sure that Arzawa must have been in West-Anatolia, and so cannot be identical with Argos.
It is also wrong that -wa means land in Hittite. utne or udne means land in Hittite. There is no meaning of -wa as a substantive in Hittite. I don't know where you got that idea from.
-Why should Bellerophon be identical with Uhha-Ziti?????
-The Madduwatta - Iobates etymology is surely incorrect, Madduwatta in Greek should be, as you said Mad(d)ya(t)tes
-The other identifications are all to be discarded. The Arzawan rulers cannot be identified with persons from Greek myths. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
130.60.63.76 (
talk)
09:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Does this mean anything other than "Arzawa's predominant language was Luwian"? If not, I'd change it to the more transparent wording. — Tamfang ( talk) 20:53, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
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The list of Arzawan kings is widely inaccurate (like many things that appear in Wiki's history articles). It could be fixed by resorting to few decent references, but until then, it's better just to delete it. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:70BE:C450:3FF6:69B1 ( talk) 22:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I posted a short summary of Gander (2014). [1] He's sort of offering a different picture of location. Y-barton ( talk) 00:32, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
References
[ [1]] It's weird to remove scholarship with the excuse that it's outdated. In fact there is not contradictory view on this one as such this can stay. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Georgiev (1981) provides a specific possibility and there I see no problem if this one is mentioned here. By the way there is no scholarship that contradicts Georgiev's claim and as such claiming that this should be removed at any cost can be easilty considered disruptive editting.
In terms of linguistics there is indeed strong linguistic evidence that Greek speech was present in the LBA-era of western Anatolia as such the existence of a possible Mycenaean Greek equivalent term is a valid information and good to have. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
"During the second half of the 2nd millennium B.C. the Argeians, the Achaeans, and the Danaans colonized several parts of the southwestern and southern coast of Asia Minor, as well as the island of Cyprus. At that time the Hittites knew of them by the names Ahhiyawa=(ἈχαιϜοί or) *Ἀχαί(ι)Ϝᾱ from *ἈχαιϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the country of the ἈχαιϜοί, and Arzawa (Arzauwa). Hidden in the name Arzawa is probably the late Mycenaean (= Cyprian) form of the name *ἈρζειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)ēϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the land of the Argeians’, a derivative of the ethnicon *Ἀργεεύς ‘inhabitant of Argos’ or of the ethni-con itself *ἈρζεϜēς from *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-ες ‘inhabitants of Argos’.15 The same form was preserved in Latin: Argīvī originates from *ἈργειϜοι ‘inhabitants of Ἀργεια, a derivative of *Ἀργ-ειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the country of the *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-ες. The towns of Ἄργος in Caria and Ἄργειόπολις in Cilicia are the traces of the Argeian colonies (= Arzawa) in Asia Minor."
We need to rely on scholarship not simply claiming that a scholar falls into WP:EXTRAORDINARY without presenting any bibliography that contradicts this view. Our personal opinion isn't enough to turn sholarship (Georgiev in this case) into WP:EXTRAORDINARY in order to have him removed. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
1. there is no reason to remove the possibility of a Mycenaean equivalent term.
2. Bato needs to present scholarship that questions the *ἈρζειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)ēϜ-i̯ᾱ connection.
Alexikoua (
talk)
17:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Plenty of scholarship has emphasized on the connection between Arzawa and Ahhiyawa (diplomacy and forming anti-Hittite alliances) nevertheless for an unexplained reason this has vanished from the article recently (both prose and citations as redundant). I can name at least 20 modern mainstream scholars who are clear on the equation Ahhijawa - Mycenaean Greece (Beckman, Gary; Bryce, Trevor; Cline, Eric, Jorrit Kelder etc.). On the other hand I can't see any scholars pointing to the opposite.
Removing cited information on the Mycenaean-Arzawan connection warrants some explanation and since the cited version that refers was already present -per wp:BRD- any removal should receive concensus in tp. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
1..This text mentions that the local noble Maduwatta who sought a marriage alliance with the Arzawan king
Kupanta-Kurunta in 15th century BC. He then allied with a certain
Attarsiya, the man of
Ahhiyawa; the latter country being widely accepted as
Mycenaean Greece or part of it.
[1] In general during the period 1400-1190 BC Hittite records mention that the populations of Arzawa and Ahhiyawa were in close contact.
[2]
Alexikoua (
talk)
20:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
2.As a result, most of the local (Arzawan) population fled. A large number of the population was deported out of Arzawa, while 6,200 comprised the royal share of deportees to serve the Hittite king.
[3]
3.In the wake of these events,
Miletus suffered a setback, and was probably burnt by the Hittite King in reprisal of Mycenaean support to the Arzawan cause. Miletus nevertheless stayed under Mycenaean control.
[4]
4.Hittite records also mention
Piyama-Radu a local warlord who was active in Arzawa and fled to Mycenaean controlled territory that time.
[5] It is not clear if the Arzawan pockets of resistance were overcome by Hittite forces.
[6]
Removing all the above with the explanation that this can be briefly summarized [ [4]] as 'expansion' appears really problematic. Another problematic issue is that the equation Ahhijawa-Mycenaean is removed from the main text. Since Ahhijawa is widely mentioned in contemporary records in Arzawan politics we 'need' to specify the relation between the two entities in detail (the same way we specify the role of the Hittites in the area). Removing the above parts leaves the reader without any knowledge about what was happening in Arzawa (wars, alliances etc everything that 's directly related to the main subject). Alexikoua ( talk) 20:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm frustrated by the above discussion. I would like to request that @ Alexikoua: retitle this section and retract his earlier accusations. I was (and I remain) totally happy to discuss these issues in good faith, but I want assurances that I will be treated as a colleague and not as an enemy. Botterweg14 (talk) 23:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Arzawa ancient greek from proto-hellenic, helleno-pelasgian root SYR SAR ARS ARZ for high and bright shining, related to the root KOR POR SOR for stone, high and connection/passage, Like in Syros, Syria, Sardon, Sardinia, Sardelles anchovies. And ISBE iswe isp asp asw dialectical exchange of the labial and bilabial p/b/w/ph consonants. The Sigma S transforms to a Digamma F, aFp, the Digamma F affects the P and doubles it to Hippo horse. Hippo = Kappa like in Kappadokia δεχομαι dekhomai receive, accept δοχη doche receptacle, reception, feast, acception, service for horses = awa City of the brigthshining horses. Anatolias, Asian minors topo- and ethnonyms are ancient greek!!!! Instead of delivering us with scientific proven evidence and truth, we have to refute with scientific proven evidence: pseudo-theories, fallacies and wrong terminologies, based not on science, but on everything else like political or religious, propagandistic, dogmatic intentions.
2A01:C23:65D4:D000:540C:4056:72FA:E56F ( talk) 23:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | It is requested that a map or maps be
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There are plenty of Hittite dictionaries and Lexicons online, I'd like to request someone add an etymology for Apasa after adding some of the sources that have researched the name, as Apasa and the later Greek word for the city seem closely related.
Hittite Etymological Dictionary Jaan Puhvel 1984 has appa- as uniformly related to "after" in a temporal sense', but Greek authors sometimes take it related to Ephor like Sparton's overseers.
As this is a harbor town, "looking after" may make more sense then "over seeing" and "see-er you see in landlocked capitals where the large hill is used as the name generator.
fyi - http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/hittite/en_lexique_hittite.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.179.151 ( talk) 19:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
- "Arzawa may be the origin for the name of the continent Asia."
- Not Arzawa, you're thinking of the other Luwian kingdom, Assuwa. It was Assuwa that gave its name to Asia.
- I agree. I have left the original quote in place for now, but have added Assuwa reference with original source.
- There is no indication Arzawa and Assuwa were separate kingdoms. Assuwa was the name of a coalition, and Arzawa may have been a successor state. Read Bryce (2005), Kelder (2010) and Cline (2013) for background on this. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:70BE:C450:3FF6:69B1 ( talk) 22:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- Was Argos that gave its name to Arzawa?
Note: The word "wa' means "land" in Hittite language.
- Was
Bellerophon, the Corinthian prince of Greek Mythology, the same person with
Uhhaziti, king of Arzawa?
- Was Arza-wa the "Argive land" (i.e. Achaean or Mycenean colonies), in Asia Minor (or else, Anatolia), in 16, 15, 14 centuries B.C. ?
- Was
Madduwatta or Maddywattes, the
Lukkan king of Arzawa (1360? B.C.) the same person with
Jobates, the king of
Lycia according to Greek Mythology?
- - Is exact the etymology, below ? :
Madduwatta < Maddu-watta < (Madd)u-watta < Uwatta < Ιοβάτα < Ιοβάτης (Jobates or Iobates)
- Was
Piyama-Kurunta, Arzawean general and son of Uhhaziti, the king of Arzawa, the same person with
Hippolochus (= he who is leader of cavalry, in Greek), the first son of
Bellerophon or with ("
Pegasus (the Corinthian)", the mythical horse of Bellerophon?
Note:
Hippolochus = Hippus ( = horse, in Greek) + lochus ( = group of soldiers, in Greek).
-- Ionn-Korr 11:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Altough English isn't my mother tongue, I have to make some corrections here:
-Argos and Arzawa are surely to be differentiated, not only are their names quite different, but also their locations are surely not identical. Altough the geography of the Arzawa-lands is difficult, it is sure that Arzawa must have been in West-Anatolia, and so cannot be identical with Argos.
It is also wrong that -wa means land in Hittite. utne or udne means land in Hittite. There is no meaning of -wa as a substantive in Hittite. I don't know where you got that idea from.
-Why should Bellerophon be identical with Uhha-Ziti?????
-The Madduwatta - Iobates etymology is surely incorrect, Madduwatta in Greek should be, as you said Mad(d)ya(t)tes
-The other identifications are all to be discarded. The Arzawan rulers cannot be identified with persons from Greek myths. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
130.60.63.76 (
talk)
09:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Does this mean anything other than "Arzawa's predominant language was Luwian"? If not, I'd change it to the more transparent wording. — Tamfang ( talk) 20:53, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:45, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
The list of Arzawan kings is widely inaccurate (like many things that appear in Wiki's history articles). It could be fixed by resorting to few decent references, but until then, it's better just to delete it. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:70BE:C450:3FF6:69B1 ( talk) 22:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I posted a short summary of Gander (2014). [1] He's sort of offering a different picture of location. Y-barton ( talk) 00:32, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
References
[ [1]] It's weird to remove scholarship with the excuse that it's outdated. In fact there is not contradictory view on this one as such this can stay. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Georgiev (1981) provides a specific possibility and there I see no problem if this one is mentioned here. By the way there is no scholarship that contradicts Georgiev's claim and as such claiming that this should be removed at any cost can be easilty considered disruptive editting.
In terms of linguistics there is indeed strong linguistic evidence that Greek speech was present in the LBA-era of western Anatolia as such the existence of a possible Mycenaean Greek equivalent term is a valid information and good to have. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
"During the second half of the 2nd millennium B.C. the Argeians, the Achaeans, and the Danaans colonized several parts of the southwestern and southern coast of Asia Minor, as well as the island of Cyprus. At that time the Hittites knew of them by the names Ahhiyawa=(ἈχαιϜοί or) *Ἀχαί(ι)Ϝᾱ from *ἈχαιϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the country of the ἈχαιϜοί, and Arzawa (Arzauwa). Hidden in the name Arzawa is probably the late Mycenaean (= Cyprian) form of the name *ἈρζειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)ēϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the land of the Argeians’, a derivative of the ethnicon *Ἀργεεύς ‘inhabitant of Argos’ or of the ethni-con itself *ἈρζεϜēς from *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-ες ‘inhabitants of Argos’.15 The same form was preserved in Latin: Argīvī originates from *ἈργειϜοι ‘inhabitants of Ἀργεια, a derivative of *Ἀργ-ειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the country of the *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-ες. The towns of Ἄργος in Caria and Ἄργειόπολις in Cilicia are the traces of the Argeian colonies (= Arzawa) in Asia Minor."
We need to rely on scholarship not simply claiming that a scholar falls into WP:EXTRAORDINARY without presenting any bibliography that contradicts this view. Our personal opinion isn't enough to turn sholarship (Georgiev in this case) into WP:EXTRAORDINARY in order to have him removed. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
1. there is no reason to remove the possibility of a Mycenaean equivalent term.
2. Bato needs to present scholarship that questions the *ἈρζειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)ēϜ-i̯ᾱ connection.
Alexikoua (
talk)
17:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Plenty of scholarship has emphasized on the connection between Arzawa and Ahhiyawa (diplomacy and forming anti-Hittite alliances) nevertheless for an unexplained reason this has vanished from the article recently (both prose and citations as redundant). I can name at least 20 modern mainstream scholars who are clear on the equation Ahhijawa - Mycenaean Greece (Beckman, Gary; Bryce, Trevor; Cline, Eric, Jorrit Kelder etc.). On the other hand I can't see any scholars pointing to the opposite.
Removing cited information on the Mycenaean-Arzawan connection warrants some explanation and since the cited version that refers was already present -per wp:BRD- any removal should receive concensus in tp. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
1..This text mentions that the local noble Maduwatta who sought a marriage alliance with the Arzawan king
Kupanta-Kurunta in 15th century BC. He then allied with a certain
Attarsiya, the man of
Ahhiyawa; the latter country being widely accepted as
Mycenaean Greece or part of it.
[1] In general during the period 1400-1190 BC Hittite records mention that the populations of Arzawa and Ahhiyawa were in close contact.
[2]
Alexikoua (
talk)
20:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
2.As a result, most of the local (Arzawan) population fled. A large number of the population was deported out of Arzawa, while 6,200 comprised the royal share of deportees to serve the Hittite king.
[3]
3.In the wake of these events,
Miletus suffered a setback, and was probably burnt by the Hittite King in reprisal of Mycenaean support to the Arzawan cause. Miletus nevertheless stayed under Mycenaean control.
[4]
4.Hittite records also mention
Piyama-Radu a local warlord who was active in Arzawa and fled to Mycenaean controlled territory that time.
[5] It is not clear if the Arzawan pockets of resistance were overcome by Hittite forces.
[6]
Removing all the above with the explanation that this can be briefly summarized [ [4]] as 'expansion' appears really problematic. Another problematic issue is that the equation Ahhijawa-Mycenaean is removed from the main text. Since Ahhijawa is widely mentioned in contemporary records in Arzawan politics we 'need' to specify the relation between the two entities in detail (the same way we specify the role of the Hittites in the area). Removing the above parts leaves the reader without any knowledge about what was happening in Arzawa (wars, alliances etc everything that 's directly related to the main subject). Alexikoua ( talk) 20:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm frustrated by the above discussion. I would like to request that @ Alexikoua: retitle this section and retract his earlier accusations. I was (and I remain) totally happy to discuss these issues in good faith, but I want assurances that I will be treated as a colleague and not as an enemy. Botterweg14 (talk) 23:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Arzawa ancient greek from proto-hellenic, helleno-pelasgian root SYR SAR ARS ARZ for high and bright shining, related to the root KOR POR SOR for stone, high and connection/passage, Like in Syros, Syria, Sardon, Sardinia, Sardelles anchovies. And ISBE iswe isp asp asw dialectical exchange of the labial and bilabial p/b/w/ph consonants. The Sigma S transforms to a Digamma F, aFp, the Digamma F affects the P and doubles it to Hippo horse. Hippo = Kappa like in Kappadokia δεχομαι dekhomai receive, accept δοχη doche receptacle, reception, feast, acception, service for horses = awa City of the brigthshining horses. Anatolias, Asian minors topo- and ethnonyms are ancient greek!!!! Instead of delivering us with scientific proven evidence and truth, we have to refute with scientific proven evidence: pseudo-theories, fallacies and wrong terminologies, based not on science, but on everything else like political or religious, propagandistic, dogmatic intentions.
2A01:C23:65D4:D000:540C:4056:72FA:E56F ( talk) 23:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)