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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 14:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move debate was: moved by User:Aldux, 17:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Move Arvanitic language to Arvanitika. This was discussed and didn't find consensus earlier (see Archive page), but that discussion was deeply flawed both procedurally and in terms of content. It took place in the context of an insanely disruptive POV-pushing edit war, in a climate of totally irrational combativeness, and with no contact to the actual literature. As several of the parties involved back then are no longer active, I hope we can now settle this in a more constructive way.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Arvanitika Are very much the same people as Albanians. Physical traits of Arvanitika correspondents with Albanian one, notice that Dinaric race (wich is dominant in Albanians) also dominate north western Greece=Arvanitas native land. Trojani 10:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Aigest 07:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC) I can not see how it can be called Graeco-Albanian language?! If you go to the sample in the end of the article you can see it that is pure Albanian language. I think this term (Graeco-Albanian) should be removed. Even if there are loanwords from Greek language it is purely an Albanian dialect.
Aigest 14:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC) I don't think this comparison is acceptable. What about the language spoken by albanian emigrants that live in Greece? Yes they speak Greek but their language can not be called Albanian-Greek language!!! When you compare or decscribe languages, it has nothing to do with the etnicity of the people who speak that language. Yes there are a lot of people in all the world who can speak English but this doesn't make that Bulgarian-English or Japanese-English. There is another method for the classification of languages and it's not based on the ethnicity of the people who speaks it. And that's why I wrote that comment.
Aigest 06:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC) Then it should not be used in the space dedicated to language. 1. It's not a Greek dialect 2. It's an Albanian dialect. I think this term should be moved toward the ethnicity of the people who speaks that language and not to the language itself. Anyway even the ethnicity of the people who speaks it is disputed. As per the Albanian side the Arvanit are the descendants of Albanian migrants to Greece, migration which happened from 12th to 15th century and which also can be seen in Arbëresh who live in Italy. As per Arvanits some declared themselves as Greek descendants some as Abanian-Greek descendants and some as Albanian descendants. It should be mentioned also, that there is not a single school in Greece in Arvanit language (although there are more than 300.000 speakers) and this is one of the reasons of its propable future extinction
Where did you get the rubbish "Arvanites are insulted by being called Albanians", never in my life I heard such a thing. Why should a minority be offended by being called what it really is? I think that part should be removed for 2 simple reasons: 1) there is no way for the author to possibly know what all Arvanites think about their ethnicity, and cannot give a judgement only on the sample interviewed by him (if he actually did) 2) consideration of this kind are totally irrelevant and possibly dangerous for the good relationship between the two countries Etimo ( talk) 19:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
In recent times, linguists have observed signs of accelerated structural convergence towards Greek and structural simplification of the language, which have been interpreted as signs of language attrition, i.e. effects of impoverishment leading towards language death (Trudgill 1976/77; Thomason 2001, quoting Sasse 1992).
What does this mean? How can simplification in itself really be a sign of possible future language death? NetProfit 17:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Arvanitika and epirotic language are synonyms and is nothing to dispute here , this is well sourced , in case that you want not to mention certain things is OK with me , but we are her to write the history as it is and not to write as we like.
‘’ Marin Barleti The story of life and deeds of Skanderbeg, the prince of Epirotes. Rome 1506-1510’’
‘’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’
‘’Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Correspondence on the Albanian Language1705-1715 [1]’’. -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 13:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Can Arvanitika been seen as the remains of an ancient Greek dialect?
Reference:In a sense, Tsakonian is both an endangered language and an endangered dialect, 7 just like Arvanitika, and its loss will be a loss for the Greek language and for Greece as a nation. [2]Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Reference: Given that Ancient Greek had both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage and that there are numerous uncertainties about the prehistory of Albanian, it is tempting to think of these Greek-Albanian parallels as innovations that spread from Greek to Albanian, but such a spread would have occurred, if at all, in an early, pre-Balkanizing, period of contact between the languages. Alternatively, the occurrence of both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage in Ancient Greek and Albanian could be taken to warrant positing these as inheritances from Proto-Indo-European, even if they are not found elsewhere in the Indo- European family. Source : Author Brian D Joseph : Is Balkan Comparative Syntax Possible? [Version of August 28, 1998] [3] Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Further reference from : Κωνσταντίνος Μπίρης. Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του σύγχρονου ελληνισμού. Αθήνα. 1981.Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 11:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Well you are right but now it is another status because it is accepted that Arvantika is a form of Albanian.Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 14:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Epirotik language/Arvanitika/Tosk Albanian is a dialect of ancient Greek language
Reference:"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the 'northwest' Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes." "[...]a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians." "The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus)." Borza, Eugene N. (1992). In the Shadow of Olympus: the Emergence of Macedon (Revised Edition). Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press.Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
You are so fast , unbelievable, yes it is a dialect of Ancient Greek,Epirotika .Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Epirotic Greek, it's the same Epirotic as the later Epirotic Albanian, it is not a misname, but currently it is and also a misunderstanding, I would like to mention these modern sources that after all are comparable .
1.Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark. [4]
2.Reference Albania Synonims (Shqipëria) Arbania/Arbanon, Epirus The Republic of Albania (Republika e Shqipërisë) since 1991. Previously the People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1976); the People's Republic of Albania (1946); the Kingdom of Albania (1928); and the Republic of Albania (1925). Although its independence was recognized in principle in 1912, it was made a protectorate of the Great Powers. Source :"Albania" Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names. John Everett-Heath. Oxford University Press 2005
3.Reference : “The fate of Albanian people and territories during Roman rule was that , they lived as free people but in social hierarchy they had a place between Romans civil right and slaves who had not right at all , the first mention with the name Albanoi or Arber was by Ptolemy of Alexandri 2nd c. A.D one of the free Illyrian tribes. The Illyrian military began to play important role in Roman life ,seven of Roman Emperors were Illyrians and they ruled in succession, the Illyrian Emperor Dioclean administrative reorganization Albanian territory in three provinces : Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. “ Source : Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanians identities .. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA 1999 [5]
4.Reference : The political situation in Albania prior to the Ottoman invasion had been very complicated because of the high level of feudal partitioning of the country. There were several independent principalities ruled by the most powerful Albanian feudal lords: of Durrës in Central Albania, ruled by Carlo Thopia; of despot Spat in Epirus; of the Balsha family in Northern Albania; of Theodore Muzaka of Berat, comprising the lands around Berat…….By the beginning of 1386 the lord of Yanina, the Florentine Esau Buondelmonti declared his vassalage to the Ottomans and confirmed it appearing in person in the town of Edirne. In the same period, his southern neighbour and rival Albanian despot Gjin Bua Spata, had to do the same. Until his death in 1400 despot Gjin Bua Spata more than once resorted to Ottomans help in the wars he waged against the Rhodes Knights Hospitallers, who at that time made efforts to gain a firm foothold in Lepanto and Corinth. Individual members of the Albanian clan of Muzaka also became Ottoman vassals” Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanian identities 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA1999 [6]
5.Arvanitia was synonym of Albania called by Greeks (Arvanites ) , Arvanites came partly from Epirus spoke a form of Albanian language and consider themselves as real Greek. Oxford English Dictionary 2007
6.According to the anthropological studies of Theodoros K. Pitsios, Arvanites in the Peloponnese in the 1970s were physically indistinguishable from other Greek inhabitants of the same region. This may indicate that either the Arvanites shared extant physical similarities with other Greek populations or that early Arvanite groups extensively incorporated parts of the autochthonous Greek population. [1] [2]Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 10:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Megistias ( talk) 10:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The bias you show is very clear,please do not offend, as you see this is a combination of sources of course relevent, i suggest you not to complain about me around because is nothing to complain for, the references are considered most of them worth by my Mentor and i respect him,very much better then you i am affraid, sorry ee..and for the news if you do not like it,P.S Mixed with the Greeks ??.Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 15:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
References
Anybody interested in reading something in Arvanitika, can do so by clicking here: [7] (p. 39) It is a folk-tale, from Salamina (Koulouri); in Italian its title can be roughly translated as "La Bella del' Mondo". Original source: Πέτρου Φουρίκη, Η εν Αττική ελληνοαλβανική διάλεκτος, περιοδικό Αθηνά, τεύχος 45 (1933). Guildenrich 23:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Die Nutzpflanzen Griechenlands by Theodor von Heldreich, gives names of cultivated trees and plants in Arbërishte, using the alphabet devised by Karl Reinhold. [ [8]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guildenrich ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Not moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 20:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Arvanitika → Arbërishte — Native equivalent Arbërishte [9]. -- Guildenrich ( talk) 14:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Before anyone reverts consider what Fourikis in association with Koumaris wrote in 1932(published after his death about a decade later)
So if you do revert me on grounds of rs or any other policy consider that if another user cites Fourikis in a relevant to the sentence article you will have absolutely no reason to revert him since you would have supported Fourikis as a source.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:26, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
'The Athena article written also by Fourikis has many theories of how she was an old Albanian god inherited from the Pelasgians' care to share...? 87.202.35.131 ( talk) 03:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Removed this [10] as OR. Do we have a source for this, or does it come from nothing more than Zjarri's imagination? This is precisely the type of claim that needs to be sourced. The process of assimilation could have begun at any time, even from the moment the Arvanites settled down. After all, in the Ottoman Empire, only religion mattered, and the Arvanites were of the same religion as their neighbors. Anybody Orthodox Chrisitans who received and education received it in Greek. Athenean ( talk) 07:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
its worded oddly for a number of reasons and you mention one already...also be careful editors not to make your source (even if it has its fair share of inaccuracies) say something it doesnt do especially if it says almost the opposite ie be careful where you insert your text if theres a citation floating around 87.202.63.131 ( talk) 12:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
There was no "process of assimilation" because most of Arvanitais were bilinguals since the late Byzantine period, Christian Orthodox and self-identified as Greeks (citations ready). The Albanian dialect was usefull to Greeks and other nations of the Balkans during the Ottoman occupation, when Turc-Albanians were high rank officials and landlords. Similarly, the Greeks in Turkey were bilingual in Turkish and Greek, in Egypt in Arabic and Greek and so on. After liberation the Arvanitika had not much use and was gradually abandoned, the same way that Greeks originating from Turkey do not speak Turkish after one generation. After all there was not much to read and study in that language.
--
Euzen (
talk) 17:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
According to the ISO documentation of the dialect it's official name is Arvanitika Albanian [11].-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)I started the RfC so people who actually know what the ISO naming is will respond.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:06, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
I added on several language articles the ISO 639 macrolanguage but on Arvanitika it has already been reverted twice by a Greek user. I don't understand why the standard ISO name should be deleted from the lead, when it is the official ISO standard name.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:05, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Athenean in your latest edit you were arguing the many similar to ISO sources that exist, but they don't and ISO is the only official source about standard names.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Athenean ISO codes are the official standard names. The state of France is commonly known as...France but it's official name is the French Republic. Languages have official ISO codes and documentations, which are their international, official and standard names. Btw by reverting me twice you didn't actually remove the official name since like all language articles the infobox links to ISO 639-3. The international standard name of Arvanitika is Arvanitika Albanian regardless of wikipedia and commmon names as the name of Bahrani Arabic is Baharna Arabic [13]-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:29, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)I would expect you to understand that |extinct isn't language codes. Btw ISO 639-3 is the only international standard, so don't make or deductions.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:41, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Ok, how about this:
Thoughts? Orange Suede Sofa ( talk) 07:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I find user:Orange Suede Sofa proposal very logical and appropriate. Use the ISO name in the infobox as it is used in similar articles and don't use it in the lead unless there's a WP:RS indicating that this is used as an alternate name. Aigest ( talk) 12:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
References
The map is of XXth century not of 19th century. As I've mentioned in the edit summaries an eg would be the Albanians in Ioannina or Albanians in Nish area which were expelled in 1878 by the Serbian army. You can see that they are not represented as Albanian speaking pockets or areas in this map. I invite users not to make OR deductions which will lead to useless disputes. Aigest ( talk) 15:12, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
You are making or deductions. In your initial revert you said that this is about a present situation because the work the map is based is written in 2000 (?). What's simple to understand is that today or at least from early 20th century Albanian has become extinct in several painted placed (for example Trudgil's map doesn't mention Arvanitika in Athens, Megara, Egina in 1900) Alexikoua ( talk) 17:08, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems that this is just one of Balkanian's or deductions. Can you plz verify the source you base your argument? Alexikoua ( talk) 17:11, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
"The outer boundaries of the Albanian-speaking area, for this purpose, can legitimately be shown in an approximated fashion, and for a map of this coarse resolution this is hardly avoidable." - sure but the map is quite inaccurate for Epirus too...some non albanian speaking areas are shown as albanian speaking and vice versa...i mean really now do we need maps that badly no matter their quality? and Trudgills(?) *map* is quite bad as well..the vlachs are moved eastwards, greek is spoken in the place of albanian in some areas, it disappears from macedonia and thrace...i know i know but i still had to vent since maps in border areas are the source of much friction.. 87.202.140.28 ( talk) 05:25, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
We had 30–150k, citing Trudgill and Ethnologue. But I can't tell what the Trudgill is, and Ethn. actually says 50k. Anyone have a datable citation? — kwami ( talk) 08:08, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
The map "File:Griechisch Isoglossen 1900.png" ( here) seems completely inaccurate to me concerning the distribution of Arvanitika. First of all, it is well known that in Euboea there are Arvanitic communities in the southern part of the island, in the villages of Karystia. Even in this region the larger towns, Karystos and Marmari - and their surrounding areas - weren't Arvanite communities. This map not only presents this region as purely Arvanitic, but - interestingly - this "white area" is expanded in more than half Euboea. Maybe it's the first map that shows Arvanitika as the prevailing language even in central Euboea and the fringes of its northern part, including the area from Chalkis (!) to Aliveri (!) and Kymi (not including the latter though), a region that was never Arvanitika-speaking.
Secondly, only a small part of Boeotia is white, and Argolis isn't white at all, both with many arvanitic villages, while Attica is almost totally white (!). Additionally, colouring whole areas to show that a language was spoken in a number of their communes, implying that there aren't other languages spoken in these areas and nearby communes, is misleading. To me, the whole map (and the original map) is completely false, inaccurate and misleading concerning language distribution, not the isoglosses, and shouldn't be used for this purpose.-- Ymaea ( talk) 12:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
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The addition of languages without historical attestation does not provide any serious information in infobox especially when they are placed in a wrong field. Reconstructed languages have been reconstructed for a specific purpose by linguistic community and should not be presented as 'older forms' in lede. Alexikoua ( talk) 00:12, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 14:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move debate was: moved by User:Aldux, 17:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Move Arvanitic language to Arvanitika. This was discussed and didn't find consensus earlier (see Archive page), but that discussion was deeply flawed both procedurally and in terms of content. It took place in the context of an insanely disruptive POV-pushing edit war, in a climate of totally irrational combativeness, and with no contact to the actual literature. As several of the parties involved back then are no longer active, I hope we can now settle this in a more constructive way.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Arvanitika Are very much the same people as Albanians. Physical traits of Arvanitika correspondents with Albanian one, notice that Dinaric race (wich is dominant in Albanians) also dominate north western Greece=Arvanitas native land. Trojani 10:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Aigest 07:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC) I can not see how it can be called Graeco-Albanian language?! If you go to the sample in the end of the article you can see it that is pure Albanian language. I think this term (Graeco-Albanian) should be removed. Even if there are loanwords from Greek language it is purely an Albanian dialect.
Aigest 14:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC) I don't think this comparison is acceptable. What about the language spoken by albanian emigrants that live in Greece? Yes they speak Greek but their language can not be called Albanian-Greek language!!! When you compare or decscribe languages, it has nothing to do with the etnicity of the people who speak that language. Yes there are a lot of people in all the world who can speak English but this doesn't make that Bulgarian-English or Japanese-English. There is another method for the classification of languages and it's not based on the ethnicity of the people who speaks it. And that's why I wrote that comment.
Aigest 06:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC) Then it should not be used in the space dedicated to language. 1. It's not a Greek dialect 2. It's an Albanian dialect. I think this term should be moved toward the ethnicity of the people who speaks that language and not to the language itself. Anyway even the ethnicity of the people who speaks it is disputed. As per the Albanian side the Arvanit are the descendants of Albanian migrants to Greece, migration which happened from 12th to 15th century and which also can be seen in Arbëresh who live in Italy. As per Arvanits some declared themselves as Greek descendants some as Abanian-Greek descendants and some as Albanian descendants. It should be mentioned also, that there is not a single school in Greece in Arvanit language (although there are more than 300.000 speakers) and this is one of the reasons of its propable future extinction
Where did you get the rubbish "Arvanites are insulted by being called Albanians", never in my life I heard such a thing. Why should a minority be offended by being called what it really is? I think that part should be removed for 2 simple reasons: 1) there is no way for the author to possibly know what all Arvanites think about their ethnicity, and cannot give a judgement only on the sample interviewed by him (if he actually did) 2) consideration of this kind are totally irrelevant and possibly dangerous for the good relationship between the two countries Etimo ( talk) 19:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
In recent times, linguists have observed signs of accelerated structural convergence towards Greek and structural simplification of the language, which have been interpreted as signs of language attrition, i.e. effects of impoverishment leading towards language death (Trudgill 1976/77; Thomason 2001, quoting Sasse 1992).
What does this mean? How can simplification in itself really be a sign of possible future language death? NetProfit 17:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Arvanitika and epirotic language are synonyms and is nothing to dispute here , this is well sourced , in case that you want not to mention certain things is OK with me , but we are her to write the history as it is and not to write as we like.
‘’ Marin Barleti The story of life and deeds of Skanderbeg, the prince of Epirotes. Rome 1506-1510’’
‘’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’
‘’Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Correspondence on the Albanian Language1705-1715 [1]’’. -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 13:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Can Arvanitika been seen as the remains of an ancient Greek dialect?
Reference:In a sense, Tsakonian is both an endangered language and an endangered dialect, 7 just like Arvanitika, and its loss will be a loss for the Greek language and for Greece as a nation. [2]Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Reference: Given that Ancient Greek had both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage and that there are numerous uncertainties about the prehistory of Albanian, it is tempting to think of these Greek-Albanian parallels as innovations that spread from Greek to Albanian, but such a spread would have occurred, if at all, in an early, pre-Balkanizing, period of contact between the languages. Alternatively, the occurrence of both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage in Ancient Greek and Albanian could be taken to warrant positing these as inheritances from Proto-Indo-European, even if they are not found elsewhere in the Indo- European family. Source : Author Brian D Joseph : Is Balkan Comparative Syntax Possible? [Version of August 28, 1998] [3] Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Further reference from : Κωνσταντίνος Μπίρης. Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του σύγχρονου ελληνισμού. Αθήνα. 1981.Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 11:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Well you are right but now it is another status because it is accepted that Arvantika is a form of Albanian.Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 14:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Epirotik language/Arvanitika/Tosk Albanian is a dialect of ancient Greek language
Reference:"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the 'northwest' Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes." "[...]a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians." "The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus)." Borza, Eugene N. (1992). In the Shadow of Olympus: the Emergence of Macedon (Revised Edition). Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press.Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
You are so fast , unbelievable, yes it is a dialect of Ancient Greek,Epirotika .Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Epirotic Greek, it's the same Epirotic as the later Epirotic Albanian, it is not a misname, but currently it is and also a misunderstanding, I would like to mention these modern sources that after all are comparable .
1.Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark. [4]
2.Reference Albania Synonims (Shqipëria) Arbania/Arbanon, Epirus The Republic of Albania (Republika e Shqipërisë) since 1991. Previously the People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1976); the People's Republic of Albania (1946); the Kingdom of Albania (1928); and the Republic of Albania (1925). Although its independence was recognized in principle in 1912, it was made a protectorate of the Great Powers. Source :"Albania" Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names. John Everett-Heath. Oxford University Press 2005
3.Reference : “The fate of Albanian people and territories during Roman rule was that , they lived as free people but in social hierarchy they had a place between Romans civil right and slaves who had not right at all , the first mention with the name Albanoi or Arber was by Ptolemy of Alexandri 2nd c. A.D one of the free Illyrian tribes. The Illyrian military began to play important role in Roman life ,seven of Roman Emperors were Illyrians and they ruled in succession, the Illyrian Emperor Dioclean administrative reorganization Albanian territory in three provinces : Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. “ Source : Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanians identities .. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA 1999 [5]
4.Reference : The political situation in Albania prior to the Ottoman invasion had been very complicated because of the high level of feudal partitioning of the country. There were several independent principalities ruled by the most powerful Albanian feudal lords: of Durrës in Central Albania, ruled by Carlo Thopia; of despot Spat in Epirus; of the Balsha family in Northern Albania; of Theodore Muzaka of Berat, comprising the lands around Berat…….By the beginning of 1386 the lord of Yanina, the Florentine Esau Buondelmonti declared his vassalage to the Ottomans and confirmed it appearing in person in the town of Edirne. In the same period, his southern neighbour and rival Albanian despot Gjin Bua Spata, had to do the same. Until his death in 1400 despot Gjin Bua Spata more than once resorted to Ottomans help in the wars he waged against the Rhodes Knights Hospitallers, who at that time made efforts to gain a firm foothold in Lepanto and Corinth. Individual members of the Albanian clan of Muzaka also became Ottoman vassals” Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanian identities 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA1999 [6]
5.Arvanitia was synonym of Albania called by Greeks (Arvanites ) , Arvanites came partly from Epirus spoke a form of Albanian language and consider themselves as real Greek. Oxford English Dictionary 2007
6.According to the anthropological studies of Theodoros K. Pitsios, Arvanites in the Peloponnese in the 1970s were physically indistinguishable from other Greek inhabitants of the same region. This may indicate that either the Arvanites shared extant physical similarities with other Greek populations or that early Arvanite groups extensively incorporated parts of the autochthonous Greek population. [1] [2]Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 10:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Megistias ( talk) 10:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The bias you show is very clear,please do not offend, as you see this is a combination of sources of course relevent, i suggest you not to complain about me around because is nothing to complain for, the references are considered most of them worth by my Mentor and i respect him,very much better then you i am affraid, sorry ee..and for the news if you do not like it,P.S Mixed with the Greeks ??.Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 15:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
References
Anybody interested in reading something in Arvanitika, can do so by clicking here: [7] (p. 39) It is a folk-tale, from Salamina (Koulouri); in Italian its title can be roughly translated as "La Bella del' Mondo". Original source: Πέτρου Φουρίκη, Η εν Αττική ελληνοαλβανική διάλεκτος, περιοδικό Αθηνά, τεύχος 45 (1933). Guildenrich 23:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Die Nutzpflanzen Griechenlands by Theodor von Heldreich, gives names of cultivated trees and plants in Arbërishte, using the alphabet devised by Karl Reinhold. [ [8]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guildenrich ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Not moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 20:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Arvanitika → Arbërishte — Native equivalent Arbërishte [9]. -- Guildenrich ( talk) 14:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Before anyone reverts consider what Fourikis in association with Koumaris wrote in 1932(published after his death about a decade later)
So if you do revert me on grounds of rs or any other policy consider that if another user cites Fourikis in a relevant to the sentence article you will have absolutely no reason to revert him since you would have supported Fourikis as a source.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:26, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
'The Athena article written also by Fourikis has many theories of how she was an old Albanian god inherited from the Pelasgians' care to share...? 87.202.35.131 ( talk) 03:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Removed this [10] as OR. Do we have a source for this, or does it come from nothing more than Zjarri's imagination? This is precisely the type of claim that needs to be sourced. The process of assimilation could have begun at any time, even from the moment the Arvanites settled down. After all, in the Ottoman Empire, only religion mattered, and the Arvanites were of the same religion as their neighbors. Anybody Orthodox Chrisitans who received and education received it in Greek. Athenean ( talk) 07:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
its worded oddly for a number of reasons and you mention one already...also be careful editors not to make your source (even if it has its fair share of inaccuracies) say something it doesnt do especially if it says almost the opposite ie be careful where you insert your text if theres a citation floating around 87.202.63.131 ( talk) 12:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
There was no "process of assimilation" because most of Arvanitais were bilinguals since the late Byzantine period, Christian Orthodox and self-identified as Greeks (citations ready). The Albanian dialect was usefull to Greeks and other nations of the Balkans during the Ottoman occupation, when Turc-Albanians were high rank officials and landlords. Similarly, the Greeks in Turkey were bilingual in Turkish and Greek, in Egypt in Arabic and Greek and so on. After liberation the Arvanitika had not much use and was gradually abandoned, the same way that Greeks originating from Turkey do not speak Turkish after one generation. After all there was not much to read and study in that language.
--
Euzen (
talk) 17:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
According to the ISO documentation of the dialect it's official name is Arvanitika Albanian [11].-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)I started the RfC so people who actually know what the ISO naming is will respond.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:06, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
I added on several language articles the ISO 639 macrolanguage but on Arvanitika it has already been reverted twice by a Greek user. I don't understand why the standard ISO name should be deleted from the lead, when it is the official ISO standard name.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:05, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Athenean in your latest edit you were arguing the many similar to ISO sources that exist, but they don't and ISO is the only official source about standard names.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Athenean ISO codes are the official standard names. The state of France is commonly known as...France but it's official name is the French Republic. Languages have official ISO codes and documentations, which are their international, official and standard names. Btw by reverting me twice you didn't actually remove the official name since like all language articles the infobox links to ISO 639-3. The international standard name of Arvanitika is Arvanitika Albanian regardless of wikipedia and commmon names as the name of Bahrani Arabic is Baharna Arabic [13]-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:29, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)I would expect you to understand that |extinct isn't language codes. Btw ISO 639-3 is the only international standard, so don't make or deductions.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:41, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Ok, how about this:
Thoughts? Orange Suede Sofa ( talk) 07:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I find user:Orange Suede Sofa proposal very logical and appropriate. Use the ISO name in the infobox as it is used in similar articles and don't use it in the lead unless there's a WP:RS indicating that this is used as an alternate name. Aigest ( talk) 12:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
References
The map is of XXth century not of 19th century. As I've mentioned in the edit summaries an eg would be the Albanians in Ioannina or Albanians in Nish area which were expelled in 1878 by the Serbian army. You can see that they are not represented as Albanian speaking pockets or areas in this map. I invite users not to make OR deductions which will lead to useless disputes. Aigest ( talk) 15:12, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
You are making or deductions. In your initial revert you said that this is about a present situation because the work the map is based is written in 2000 (?). What's simple to understand is that today or at least from early 20th century Albanian has become extinct in several painted placed (for example Trudgil's map doesn't mention Arvanitika in Athens, Megara, Egina in 1900) Alexikoua ( talk) 17:08, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems that this is just one of Balkanian's or deductions. Can you plz verify the source you base your argument? Alexikoua ( talk) 17:11, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
"The outer boundaries of the Albanian-speaking area, for this purpose, can legitimately be shown in an approximated fashion, and for a map of this coarse resolution this is hardly avoidable." - sure but the map is quite inaccurate for Epirus too...some non albanian speaking areas are shown as albanian speaking and vice versa...i mean really now do we need maps that badly no matter their quality? and Trudgills(?) *map* is quite bad as well..the vlachs are moved eastwards, greek is spoken in the place of albanian in some areas, it disappears from macedonia and thrace...i know i know but i still had to vent since maps in border areas are the source of much friction.. 87.202.140.28 ( talk) 05:25, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
We had 30–150k, citing Trudgill and Ethnologue. But I can't tell what the Trudgill is, and Ethn. actually says 50k. Anyone have a datable citation? — kwami ( talk) 08:08, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
The map "File:Griechisch Isoglossen 1900.png" ( here) seems completely inaccurate to me concerning the distribution of Arvanitika. First of all, it is well known that in Euboea there are Arvanitic communities in the southern part of the island, in the villages of Karystia. Even in this region the larger towns, Karystos and Marmari - and their surrounding areas - weren't Arvanite communities. This map not only presents this region as purely Arvanitic, but - interestingly - this "white area" is expanded in more than half Euboea. Maybe it's the first map that shows Arvanitika as the prevailing language even in central Euboea and the fringes of its northern part, including the area from Chalkis (!) to Aliveri (!) and Kymi (not including the latter though), a region that was never Arvanitika-speaking.
Secondly, only a small part of Boeotia is white, and Argolis isn't white at all, both with many arvanitic villages, while Attica is almost totally white (!). Additionally, colouring whole areas to show that a language was spoken in a number of their communes, implying that there aren't other languages spoken in these areas and nearby communes, is misleading. To me, the whole map (and the original map) is completely false, inaccurate and misleading concerning language distribution, not the isoglosses, and shouldn't be used for this purpose.-- Ymaea ( talk) 12:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
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The addition of languages without historical attestation does not provide any serious information in infobox especially when they are placed in a wrong field. Reconstructed languages have been reconstructed for a specific purpose by linguistic community and should not be presented as 'older forms' in lede. Alexikoua ( talk) 00:12, 19 February 2024 (UTC)