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Archive 1 |
Arthur Phleps war ein Volkdeutscher. Er wurde am 29.11. 1881 in Brithälm geboren, was im damaligen Siebenbürgen lag. Im Frühjahr 1942 betraute man ihn mit der Aufstellung einer Freiwilligen Division aus Volksdeutschen des Südostraums, deren Ergebnis die später in allen Einsätzen am Balkan so bekannte 7. SS Freiwilligen-Gebirgsdivison Prinz Eugen war. Er fiel auf einer Erkundungsfahrt am 21.9. 1944. Phleps wurde post-mortem am 24.11.1944 für die Leistungen als SS Obergruppenführer ausgezeichnet.
Tagged as {{notenglish}} and translated by me.
Tonywalton |
Talk
11:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
He must have been an imposing figure within the SS -- he even looked much like Adolf Hitler himself even to the mustache! Pbrower2a ( talk) 15:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: MisterBee1966 ( talk · contribs) 11:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I will start the review shortly MisterBee1966 ( talk) 11:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I am asking for a second opinion on this article. I have knowledge about, but not access to, German sources about Phleps including the research by the German Armed Forces Military History Research Office. The German Wiki article gives indication what could be obtained from these sources. This includes Phleps' attitude towards the concentration camps, the fact that he had at first joined the German military under his mother's maiden name, that his son received the Oak Leaves on behalf of his father, that Himmler at first thought that he had deserted and wanted him arrested, and especially the war crimes committed by his division. I would like to see these elements addressed before I would promote the article.
This needs clarifying in the lede its called a panzergrenadier division, then there is a section heading which uses 5th PD and SS Motorised Division Wiking is used in the section itself. I know all names were used a one time or another but a note or other clarification is needed. Jim Sweeney ( talk) 22:55, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I suggest replacing Siebenburgen with Transylvania, standard form in English. At least in the repetitions, if not in the whole text. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
101.119.15.214 (
talk)
14:09, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
I removed the source Glaise-Hortenau from the passage regarding the circumstances of Phleps' death as they are not mentioned there (cf. [2]). Williamson is correct (cf. [3] unfortunately he neglects to mention his source. ÄDA - DÄP VA ( talk) 11:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Why is this a featured article? He was just one of numerous Nazis guilty of war crimes. This seems to be a randomly selected article. Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 16:43, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
How is the death of a nazi a war crime? Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 23:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
So the execution of Mussolini was a war crime? Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 05:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I understand his legal position..he got exactly what he deserved..there is no such thing a just war...war is the absence of morality and ethics..so the people who start it write laws governing it and expect everyone else to abide by their rules which they routinely break..this person was less than an animal...you may not have a problem with killing an animal..i do..I still don`t understand why this article was ever posted to the front page of Wikipedia in the first place..the article itself is not particularly interesting or informative and the decision to place it out front was in bad taste..people like this are best forgotten...don`t tell me this has anything to do with justice or the law. Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 06:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
you are defending this person..he never deserved a trial..its not like he gave any to his victims. Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 07:01, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I don`t see how it can be improved...what is it you want to know about this person? Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 07:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
After this latest comment came out of nowhere I have moved the conversation to Lonepilgrims talk page User_talk:Lonepilgrim007#Your_Behavior_On_Talk_Pages where I have warned him of his increasingly disruptive behavior on talk pages. I think it is time this discussion ends here and either takes place on his talk page or at one of the administrators notice boards. 67.8.42.4 ( talk) 03:10, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
How do I do that? How do I suggest to the powers that be that maybe putting the picture of a Nazi on the front page of Wikipedia is perhaps not a great idea? Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 02:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
@ Gorran: the page ranges for the ref to war crimes are way too wide. Could you narrow it down to the page of the judgement? Also, we don't cite in the lead unless absolutely necessary, and that is not the case here. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 04:44, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Awards cannot be reliably sourced by an editor identifying them from a photograph and matching them to a source that shows the medals. They need to be sourced to a book which states that Phleps was awarded them. Reverting. Please discuss here. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 00:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
This is article is FA, and uses sfn citations. If you make additions to it, please use sfn citations and provide full details of the source in the References section. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 07:02, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
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Artur Phleps. Please take a moment to review
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
This featured article uses Otto Kumm's history of the 7th SS-Mountain Division and Roland Kaltenegger's Totenkopf und Edelweiss (2008) as references. Both are well known apologists of Nazi war crimes. While I assume that SS-Brigadeführer Kumm's role as commander of the "Prinz Eugen" and his later involvement with the HIAG is well known, I may quote how Michael Wedekind, in his study of Nazi occupation of Northern Italy (Nationalsozialistische Besatzungs- und Annexionspolitik in Norditalien 1943-1945, Munich 2003), characterized a Kaltenegger book of 1993: "The explosiveness of this work with its striking proximity to National Socialism lies with the intended downplaying-apologetic defibration of historical events up to a sometimes redundant-episodic degree, thereby overriding central and characteristic aspects of not only the national socialist policy of occupation and annexation, but also of the fight against partisans, which is the central topic. (Die Brisanz der Arbeit mit ihrer auffälligen Nähe zum Nationalsozialismus liegt in der verharmlosend-apologetischen intentionierten Zerfaserung historischer Vorgänge ins bisweilen Redundant-Episodenhafte und damit in der Überspielung zentraler und wesenhafter Aspekte der nationalsozialistischen Okkupations- und Annexionspolitik ebenso wie der thematisch in den Mittelpunkt gerückten Partisanenbekämpfung. (p. 8))
The article does not make use, however, of Thomas Casagrande's PhD thesis: Die volksdeutsche SS-Division "Prinz Eugen". Campus, Frankfurt/M. 2003, or of Paul Milata's: Zwischen Hitler, Stalin und Antonescu: Rumäniendeutsche in der Waffen-SS. Böhlau, Cologne 2007, 2nd ed. 2009. I consider that a serious shortcoming, because Phleps' guidelines and orders and therefore his imminent responsibility for the ruthless warfare his division waged against civillians remain unexplored. Instead, it is claimed, according to no one other than Kumm, that the division killed 2,000 "Partisans" during Case White and another 250 during Case Black, while it is by now a well established fact that the Germans counted civilian victims as partisans. (see, e.g., Casagrande, op. cit., p. 255)-- Assayer ( talk) 16:31, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the use of WP:QS sources mentioned above, some of the statements they are supporting are controversial, including:
References
I also believe that WP:FRINGE applies, i.e. statements from fringe sources should be reported only if they are noticed by independent reliable sources. In Kumm's case, I consider his account to be a primary, non-independent source.
Some of the material cited to these sources is (in my definition) "intricate detail", such as:
References
In this case, I would argue that inclusion of this detail amounts to indiscriminate collection of information -- if a particular development was important, then surely reliable sources would have taken note of that, and questionable publications would not be needed. If no reliable source report these developments, then they could be omitted as not adding much to the article: i.e. is it necessary to include which secondary school and where the subject graduated from?
I thus suggest that such sources be minimized or replaced wherever possible. K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:25, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
The article claims that Phleps was transferred to the reserves in 1940 and "forcibly retired from the service in 1941", after he had criticized King Carol. That's according to Hans Bergel's piece in the ÖBL. Bergel writes, however, "wegen Kritik an Bukarester Verhältnissen wurde er 1940 i. d. Res. versetzt und 1941 auf eigenes Ansuchen aus rumän. Diensten entlassen." The latter means, that he requested to be dismissed from the Romanian service. If there's no further concern I would clear that up.-- Assayer ( talk) 20:32, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Arthur Phleps war ein Volkdeutscher. Er wurde am 29.11. 1881 in Brithälm geboren, was im damaligen Siebenbürgen lag. Im Frühjahr 1942 betraute man ihn mit der Aufstellung einer Freiwilligen Division aus Volksdeutschen des Südostraums, deren Ergebnis die später in allen Einsätzen am Balkan so bekannte 7. SS Freiwilligen-Gebirgsdivison Prinz Eugen war. Er fiel auf einer Erkundungsfahrt am 21.9. 1944. Phleps wurde post-mortem am 24.11.1944 für die Leistungen als SS Obergruppenführer ausgezeichnet.
Tagged as {{notenglish}} and translated by me.
Tonywalton |
Talk
11:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
He must have been an imposing figure within the SS -- he even looked much like Adolf Hitler himself even to the mustache! Pbrower2a ( talk) 15:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: MisterBee1966 ( talk · contribs) 11:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I will start the review shortly MisterBee1966 ( talk) 11:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I am asking for a second opinion on this article. I have knowledge about, but not access to, German sources about Phleps including the research by the German Armed Forces Military History Research Office. The German Wiki article gives indication what could be obtained from these sources. This includes Phleps' attitude towards the concentration camps, the fact that he had at first joined the German military under his mother's maiden name, that his son received the Oak Leaves on behalf of his father, that Himmler at first thought that he had deserted and wanted him arrested, and especially the war crimes committed by his division. I would like to see these elements addressed before I would promote the article.
This needs clarifying in the lede its called a panzergrenadier division, then there is a section heading which uses 5th PD and SS Motorised Division Wiking is used in the section itself. I know all names were used a one time or another but a note or other clarification is needed. Jim Sweeney ( talk) 22:55, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I suggest replacing Siebenburgen with Transylvania, standard form in English. At least in the repetitions, if not in the whole text. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
101.119.15.214 (
talk)
14:09, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
I removed the source Glaise-Hortenau from the passage regarding the circumstances of Phleps' death as they are not mentioned there (cf. [2]). Williamson is correct (cf. [3] unfortunately he neglects to mention his source. ÄDA - DÄP VA ( talk) 11:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Why is this a featured article? He was just one of numerous Nazis guilty of war crimes. This seems to be a randomly selected article. Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 16:43, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
How is the death of a nazi a war crime? Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 23:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
So the execution of Mussolini was a war crime? Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 05:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I understand his legal position..he got exactly what he deserved..there is no such thing a just war...war is the absence of morality and ethics..so the people who start it write laws governing it and expect everyone else to abide by their rules which they routinely break..this person was less than an animal...you may not have a problem with killing an animal..i do..I still don`t understand why this article was ever posted to the front page of Wikipedia in the first place..the article itself is not particularly interesting or informative and the decision to place it out front was in bad taste..people like this are best forgotten...don`t tell me this has anything to do with justice or the law. Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 06:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
you are defending this person..he never deserved a trial..its not like he gave any to his victims. Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 07:01, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I don`t see how it can be improved...what is it you want to know about this person? Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 07:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
After this latest comment came out of nowhere I have moved the conversation to Lonepilgrims talk page User_talk:Lonepilgrim007#Your_Behavior_On_Talk_Pages where I have warned him of his increasingly disruptive behavior on talk pages. I think it is time this discussion ends here and either takes place on his talk page or at one of the administrators notice boards. 67.8.42.4 ( talk) 03:10, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
How do I do that? How do I suggest to the powers that be that maybe putting the picture of a Nazi on the front page of Wikipedia is perhaps not a great idea? Lonepilgrim007 ( talk) 02:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
@ Gorran: the page ranges for the ref to war crimes are way too wide. Could you narrow it down to the page of the judgement? Also, we don't cite in the lead unless absolutely necessary, and that is not the case here. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 04:44, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Awards cannot be reliably sourced by an editor identifying them from a photograph and matching them to a source that shows the medals. They need to be sourced to a book which states that Phleps was awarded them. Reverting. Please discuss here. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 00:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
This is article is FA, and uses sfn citations. If you make additions to it, please use sfn citations and provide full details of the source in the References section. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 07:02, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Artur Phleps. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
This featured article uses Otto Kumm's history of the 7th SS-Mountain Division and Roland Kaltenegger's Totenkopf und Edelweiss (2008) as references. Both are well known apologists of Nazi war crimes. While I assume that SS-Brigadeführer Kumm's role as commander of the "Prinz Eugen" and his later involvement with the HIAG is well known, I may quote how Michael Wedekind, in his study of Nazi occupation of Northern Italy (Nationalsozialistische Besatzungs- und Annexionspolitik in Norditalien 1943-1945, Munich 2003), characterized a Kaltenegger book of 1993: "The explosiveness of this work with its striking proximity to National Socialism lies with the intended downplaying-apologetic defibration of historical events up to a sometimes redundant-episodic degree, thereby overriding central and characteristic aspects of not only the national socialist policy of occupation and annexation, but also of the fight against partisans, which is the central topic. (Die Brisanz der Arbeit mit ihrer auffälligen Nähe zum Nationalsozialismus liegt in der verharmlosend-apologetischen intentionierten Zerfaserung historischer Vorgänge ins bisweilen Redundant-Episodenhafte und damit in der Überspielung zentraler und wesenhafter Aspekte der nationalsozialistischen Okkupations- und Annexionspolitik ebenso wie der thematisch in den Mittelpunkt gerückten Partisanenbekämpfung. (p. 8))
The article does not make use, however, of Thomas Casagrande's PhD thesis: Die volksdeutsche SS-Division "Prinz Eugen". Campus, Frankfurt/M. 2003, or of Paul Milata's: Zwischen Hitler, Stalin und Antonescu: Rumäniendeutsche in der Waffen-SS. Böhlau, Cologne 2007, 2nd ed. 2009. I consider that a serious shortcoming, because Phleps' guidelines and orders and therefore his imminent responsibility for the ruthless warfare his division waged against civillians remain unexplored. Instead, it is claimed, according to no one other than Kumm, that the division killed 2,000 "Partisans" during Case White and another 250 during Case Black, while it is by now a well established fact that the Germans counted civilian victims as partisans. (see, e.g., Casagrande, op. cit., p. 255)-- Assayer ( talk) 16:31, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the use of WP:QS sources mentioned above, some of the statements they are supporting are controversial, including:
References
I also believe that WP:FRINGE applies, i.e. statements from fringe sources should be reported only if they are noticed by independent reliable sources. In Kumm's case, I consider his account to be a primary, non-independent source.
Some of the material cited to these sources is (in my definition) "intricate detail", such as:
References
In this case, I would argue that inclusion of this detail amounts to indiscriminate collection of information -- if a particular development was important, then surely reliable sources would have taken note of that, and questionable publications would not be needed. If no reliable source report these developments, then they could be omitted as not adding much to the article: i.e. is it necessary to include which secondary school and where the subject graduated from?
I thus suggest that such sources be minimized or replaced wherever possible. K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:25, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
The article claims that Phleps was transferred to the reserves in 1940 and "forcibly retired from the service in 1941", after he had criticized King Carol. That's according to Hans Bergel's piece in the ÖBL. Bergel writes, however, "wegen Kritik an Bukarester Verhältnissen wurde er 1940 i. d. Res. versetzt und 1941 auf eigenes Ansuchen aus rumän. Diensten entlassen." The latter means, that he requested to be dismissed from the Romanian service. If there's no further concern I would clear that up.-- Assayer ( talk) 20:32, 11 November 2016 (UTC)