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We need to disaggregate the historical elements from a contemporary profile of the arts in the city. I suggest three pages: "History of the fine arts in Birmingham" / "History of Music in Birmingham" / and "Arts in Birmingham" (strictly for a profile of the city now). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.182.168 ( talk) 11:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Of Steve Winwood and Dave Mason, the article said "the last two being close friends of Jimi Hendrix. Winwood played on 5 Hendrix LP's and Hendrix first heard "All Along The Watchtower" by Bob Dylan at a party he was invited to by Mason, he decided to record his own version the same night with Mason playing acoustic guitar." I can find no evidence that Hendrix ever came to Birmingham so I have deleted this passage. The information about Hendrix is not relevant here. -- Theo (Talk) 23:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Parkes reference deleted. It's reasonable to restrict arts topics to the institutions and the artists themselves rather than the peripheral technological roots. You won't see a description of the elephant or ivory on the Glenn Gould page just because of their historical contribution to piano keys! Parkes is well covered anyway under Science and invention in Birmingham. RayGirvan 20:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Let's go to source. Go to the site of Luminar plc, and search for "Jools". A quick skim finds that "in April 2000 we acquired the Jam House, a branded going concern concept, in conjunction with Jools Holland based in Birmingham", and that he's "on board as the venue’s musical and creative advisor" (which isn't a managerial post - the guy has a career). So he's probably a co-owner, but certainly doesn't "run" it in the general admin sense. RayGirvan 21:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
See Literary connections with Birmingham for many more examples of Birmingham and related authors. RayGirvan 22:56, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Birdland were actually from Kingsbury, south of Tamworth. Their record label was in Coventry. Still not Brummies, either way. -- Brumburger 21:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Before we get into an argument over the inclusion of comparisons to other cities, can we please discuss the phrasing here? The fundamental question seems to be: is it necessary to compare the musical contribution of Birmingham to that of other cities?
In my opinion, the comparison is not essential but it does enhance the reader's understanding of the city's place in England's musical landscape. I propose:
:Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been a "Birmingham sound" comparable to
Merseybeat or
Madchester but the city is described as the birthplace of
Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}.
—
Theo
(Talk) 08:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Revised version adopting Ray's lovely word:
— Theo (Talk) 13:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[resetting indents] The site that Nick cites says Norrie Paramore apparently came up with "Brum Beat" as part of an advertising campaign to promote national interest in the bands he had signed up from Birmingham, but the term Brum Beat would later become known more for the geographical location that certain groups and performers came from, rather than for a single unifying "sound". As Ray says, it is worth mentioning but I do not see how to do so without diminishing the "birthplace of heavy metal". How about:
The associated reference is: [http://www.brumbeat.net/oview.htm Woodhouse, John R. 'Welcome to Brum Beat', ''Brum Beat'' (2005)]. Retrieved [[June 20]] [[2005]]. — Theo (Talk) 20:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[Resetting indents]Ray: Your proposal is not helpful. Nick: I would still like to see your proposed rewrite.— Theo (Talk) 08:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I have taken into account the fact that Brum has never had a particular music scene as famous as the Merseysound or Madchester scene although the city has contributed to both scenes (charlatans - Manc & Fortunes - Mersey), I am in the process of elaborating on the music article so as to highlight the intro, to reach a compromise I will be addressing the facts that Birmingham has appreciated many "supergroups" who have received much acclaim and notoriety and whilst the city has experienced micro music scenes there has never been a city-wide scene that could be labeled as such, I have come up with this as the initial intro:
"Whilst cities such as Liverpool and Manchester have enjoyed famous music scenes that have been easily labeled by the British media Birmingham's music styles have often proved difficult to "box" with many smaller scenes evolving (possibly due to its sprawling size) or individual supergroups taking the limelight rather than the city itself. Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century with many famous Birmingham musicians contributing to a wider British music scene in general."
I was going to mention heavy metal in there but it is not 100% a Birmingham sound, like most scenes the city has contributed rather than created the sound although heavy metal obviously has more longevity than either the merseybeat or madchester scene, which incidentally incorporated the indie and baggy scene as well with bands from all over the country, anyway... is this a fair compromise? Thanks Nick Boulevard 1 July 2005 18:02 (UTC)
Is the following an acceptable form?
Andy: Please explain why the two pieces of information and the two typos that you reintroduced to the aricle are enhancements. Your assertion that "their music bore no resemblance to Led Zepeplin" is not even supported by the written and musical sources. Members of Band Of Joy have commented that Plant used some of the band's pieces for early Zeppelin numbers; have you ever heard anything by Band Of Joy or do you have a source stating the dissimilarity? And why is the legality of graffiti pertinent to this article? In my opinion the place for comments on the legality of graffiti is in the Graffiti article. — Theo (Talk) 11:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
1) Of course typos are no t enhancements, Please feel free to correct any you find. 2) It's ages since I heard any Band of Joy, but since Wikipedia is not for "original research", I don't see how that is pertinent, anyway 3) "using the pieces" (which could simply mean lyrics, or songs whcih were "covered" by Led Zep) does not sit with the Led Zep articles' claims as to their originality. Please cite your claim. 4) The legality of graffiti is of relevance, because of the context. Andy Mabbett 13:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
1) I apologise for the typos gibe. It was a snide response to your having reverted corrected typos back into the article.
2) I think you may be misunderstanding
No Original Research. It is about not introducing new ideas. It is not about not checking assertions. The reason I wondered whether you had heard any Band of Joy is that you may have recognised some of the songs that they covered as the bases for some Zeppelin songs. You might then have read the Led Zep material here on Wikipedia with a different eye and noticed the references to plagiarism and rearrangement.
3) [Led Zeppelin]],
Led Zepellin (album), and
Led Zeppelin II all mention areas in which the band were not original. This is not to detract from Led Zep. As far as I can tell (and I know from experience that using such a modifier opens the way for you to say that I must therefore be wrong; please resist that) Led Zep played covers and rearrangements of the blues numbers (that they had covered as Band of Joy and in other bands) in a heavy metal style. Using the technique that you have demonstrated earlier: please do not make assertions that you cannot support with explicit references. I have been unable to find a reference that states that Led Zeppelin's "music bore no resemblance" to that of the bands in which its members previously played. Band of Joy played the numbers from which Led Zepelin numbers were derived. Led Zep covered songs that were covered by Band of Joy. I agree that Heavy Metal is a very different sound to the Blues, but it is not entirely without resemblance to the blues and to maintain that two covers of the same song bear no resemblance is inappropriate exaggeration in an encyclopedia article.
4) Please explain why it is necessary in this context to explain that graffiti "is illegal, and regarded by some as vandalism", particularly when graffiti is only illegal when applied without consent (is all Birmingham graffiti illegal?).
—
Theo
(Talk)
15:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Sources: http://www.skillset.org/uk/westmids/article_1831_1.asp
http://www.publications.bham.ac.uk/annual-review-03/june.htm
http://www.transdiffusion.org/pmc/studio1/circles.htm
Nick Boulevard 16:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think everything from Music of Birmingham which isn't already here (if there is anything, which I doubt) should be put in this article and MoB turned into a redirect. But I'm not that bothered which way it goes, as long as we end up with one article containing all the information. -- Brumburger 09:14, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
While I opposed this merge to begin with, it was not really done very well. Even if you wanted to make classical and popular music separate, why put the music festivals and venues in between? And its not really neutral to put obscure, underground house and hip hop music under "popular" since many would dispute that classification. And why are some festivals covered under "classical music" and some under a separate heading? This article now looks very unbalanced. Tuf-Kat 04:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
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This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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We need to disaggregate the historical elements from a contemporary profile of the arts in the city. I suggest three pages: "History of the fine arts in Birmingham" / "History of Music in Birmingham" / and "Arts in Birmingham" (strictly for a profile of the city now). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.182.168 ( talk) 11:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Of Steve Winwood and Dave Mason, the article said "the last two being close friends of Jimi Hendrix. Winwood played on 5 Hendrix LP's and Hendrix first heard "All Along The Watchtower" by Bob Dylan at a party he was invited to by Mason, he decided to record his own version the same night with Mason playing acoustic guitar." I can find no evidence that Hendrix ever came to Birmingham so I have deleted this passage. The information about Hendrix is not relevant here. -- Theo (Talk) 23:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Parkes reference deleted. It's reasonable to restrict arts topics to the institutions and the artists themselves rather than the peripheral technological roots. You won't see a description of the elephant or ivory on the Glenn Gould page just because of their historical contribution to piano keys! Parkes is well covered anyway under Science and invention in Birmingham. RayGirvan 20:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Let's go to source. Go to the site of Luminar plc, and search for "Jools". A quick skim finds that "in April 2000 we acquired the Jam House, a branded going concern concept, in conjunction with Jools Holland based in Birmingham", and that he's "on board as the venue’s musical and creative advisor" (which isn't a managerial post - the guy has a career). So he's probably a co-owner, but certainly doesn't "run" it in the general admin sense. RayGirvan 21:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
See Literary connections with Birmingham for many more examples of Birmingham and related authors. RayGirvan 22:56, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Birdland were actually from Kingsbury, south of Tamworth. Their record label was in Coventry. Still not Brummies, either way. -- Brumburger 21:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Before we get into an argument over the inclusion of comparisons to other cities, can we please discuss the phrasing here? The fundamental question seems to be: is it necessary to compare the musical contribution of Birmingham to that of other cities?
In my opinion, the comparison is not essential but it does enhance the reader's understanding of the city's place in England's musical landscape. I propose:
:Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been a "Birmingham sound" comparable to
Merseybeat or
Madchester but the city is described as the birthplace of
Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}.
—
Theo
(Talk) 08:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Revised version adopting Ray's lovely word:
— Theo (Talk) 13:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[resetting indents] The site that Nick cites says Norrie Paramore apparently came up with "Brum Beat" as part of an advertising campaign to promote national interest in the bands he had signed up from Birmingham, but the term Brum Beat would later become known more for the geographical location that certain groups and performers came from, rather than for a single unifying "sound". As Ray says, it is worth mentioning but I do not see how to do so without diminishing the "birthplace of heavy metal". How about:
The associated reference is: [http://www.brumbeat.net/oview.htm Woodhouse, John R. 'Welcome to Brum Beat', ''Brum Beat'' (2005)]. Retrieved [[June 20]] [[2005]]. — Theo (Talk) 20:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[Resetting indents]Ray: Your proposal is not helpful. Nick: I would still like to see your proposed rewrite.— Theo (Talk) 08:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I have taken into account the fact that Brum has never had a particular music scene as famous as the Merseysound or Madchester scene although the city has contributed to both scenes (charlatans - Manc & Fortunes - Mersey), I am in the process of elaborating on the music article so as to highlight the intro, to reach a compromise I will be addressing the facts that Birmingham has appreciated many "supergroups" who have received much acclaim and notoriety and whilst the city has experienced micro music scenes there has never been a city-wide scene that could be labeled as such, I have come up with this as the initial intro:
"Whilst cities such as Liverpool and Manchester have enjoyed famous music scenes that have been easily labeled by the British media Birmingham's music styles have often proved difficult to "box" with many smaller scenes evolving (possibly due to its sprawling size) or individual supergroups taking the limelight rather than the city itself. Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century with many famous Birmingham musicians contributing to a wider British music scene in general."
I was going to mention heavy metal in there but it is not 100% a Birmingham sound, like most scenes the city has contributed rather than created the sound although heavy metal obviously has more longevity than either the merseybeat or madchester scene, which incidentally incorporated the indie and baggy scene as well with bands from all over the country, anyway... is this a fair compromise? Thanks Nick Boulevard 1 July 2005 18:02 (UTC)
Is the following an acceptable form?
Andy: Please explain why the two pieces of information and the two typos that you reintroduced to the aricle are enhancements. Your assertion that "their music bore no resemblance to Led Zepeplin" is not even supported by the written and musical sources. Members of Band Of Joy have commented that Plant used some of the band's pieces for early Zeppelin numbers; have you ever heard anything by Band Of Joy or do you have a source stating the dissimilarity? And why is the legality of graffiti pertinent to this article? In my opinion the place for comments on the legality of graffiti is in the Graffiti article. — Theo (Talk) 11:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
1) Of course typos are no t enhancements, Please feel free to correct any you find. 2) It's ages since I heard any Band of Joy, but since Wikipedia is not for "original research", I don't see how that is pertinent, anyway 3) "using the pieces" (which could simply mean lyrics, or songs whcih were "covered" by Led Zep) does not sit with the Led Zep articles' claims as to their originality. Please cite your claim. 4) The legality of graffiti is of relevance, because of the context. Andy Mabbett 13:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
1) I apologise for the typos gibe. It was a snide response to your having reverted corrected typos back into the article.
2) I think you may be misunderstanding
No Original Research. It is about not introducing new ideas. It is not about not checking assertions. The reason I wondered whether you had heard any Band of Joy is that you may have recognised some of the songs that they covered as the bases for some Zeppelin songs. You might then have read the Led Zep material here on Wikipedia with a different eye and noticed the references to plagiarism and rearrangement.
3) [Led Zeppelin]],
Led Zepellin (album), and
Led Zeppelin II all mention areas in which the band were not original. This is not to detract from Led Zep. As far as I can tell (and I know from experience that using such a modifier opens the way for you to say that I must therefore be wrong; please resist that) Led Zep played covers and rearrangements of the blues numbers (that they had covered as Band of Joy and in other bands) in a heavy metal style. Using the technique that you have demonstrated earlier: please do not make assertions that you cannot support with explicit references. I have been unable to find a reference that states that Led Zeppelin's "music bore no resemblance" to that of the bands in which its members previously played. Band of Joy played the numbers from which Led Zepelin numbers were derived. Led Zep covered songs that were covered by Band of Joy. I agree that Heavy Metal is a very different sound to the Blues, but it is not entirely without resemblance to the blues and to maintain that two covers of the same song bear no resemblance is inappropriate exaggeration in an encyclopedia article.
4) Please explain why it is necessary in this context to explain that graffiti "is illegal, and regarded by some as vandalism", particularly when graffiti is only illegal when applied without consent (is all Birmingham graffiti illegal?).
—
Theo
(Talk)
15:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Sources: http://www.skillset.org/uk/westmids/article_1831_1.asp
http://www.publications.bham.ac.uk/annual-review-03/june.htm
http://www.transdiffusion.org/pmc/studio1/circles.htm
Nick Boulevard 16:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think everything from Music of Birmingham which isn't already here (if there is anything, which I doubt) should be put in this article and MoB turned into a redirect. But I'm not that bothered which way it goes, as long as we end up with one article containing all the information. -- Brumburger 09:14, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
While I opposed this merge to begin with, it was not really done very well. Even if you wanted to make classical and popular music separate, why put the music festivals and venues in between? And its not really neutral to put obscure, underground house and hip hop music under "popular" since many would dispute that classification. And why are some festivals covered under "classical music" and some under a separate heading? This article now looks very unbalanced. Tuf-Kat 04:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
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