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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Hello, Steverci. Firuz Kazimzadeh was born in Russia, his father is Iranian and his mother is Russian. In addition, his work is one of the main sources recommended for this period in prestigious universities. We should not be rooted in the ethnic origin of the people. There is also a reference to an Armenian source. This is not a problem for me, if the source is from a reliable university and a publishing house, it should not be a problem. See also: Wikipedia:Reliable sources-- Qızılbaş ( talk) 13:57, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
- It is one of the most cited works on the history of the South Caucasus (1917-1920), perhaps the first. So it is not outdated or biased. You can see and reah theese articles and books from this link - https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:vN_KzV1uMCYJ:scholar.google.com/&scioq=&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 - Michael Karpovich noted that Armenian and Georgian authors wrote mainly in Russian, French and German. So he was used Armenian authors' books from Western languages. For example, Devderiani, Press Bureauo Armenian National Union of America, Ishkhanian, Minakhorian, Tchalkhouchian, Turabian, Khachapuridze, Suren and Stepan Shaumuian, Avalov, Borian and others. Let me note that these sources are only part of the general Armenian sources. On the contrary, Azerbaijani resources were rarely used. But this does not affect the academic quality of the book. - Most importantly, the reference to my attachments is neither, as you say, Salahi Sonyel (he was only 19 at the time :)), nor an Azerbaijani source. It is the report of the person who was the successor of the Caucasus at that time. This report is still kept in St. Petersburg. I also mentioned the location, you can go and buy and check.-- Qızılbaş ( talk) 10:37, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Qızılbaş you're edit-warring and using WP:UNDUE book, and quotes from genocide denier, clear conflict of interest. You failed to address talk points previously and now when the user you had disagreement with is tbanned for a completely different article, you're here again disrupting the page with no consensus additions. One more disruption from you and failure to discuss, and you'll be reported. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 16:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
The TCA, formed in 2007 with $30 million from Turkish-American businessman Yalcin Ayasli has made the“academic controversy”project a major focus, funding publications that attempt to undermine the historicity of the Armenian Genocide, supporting a major project at the University of Utah (the Turkish Studies Project), and re-peating the existence of a scholarly debate. A section of its website is headlined,“The Ottoman Armenian Tragedy Is a Genuine Historic Controversy / Many Reputable Scholars Challenge the Conventional, One-Sided Anti-Turkish Narrative and/or Refrainfrom Alleging the Crime of Genocide.” and that “The notion that the one-sided Armenian narrative is settled history does not reflect the truth and must be utterly rejected.” Excerpts from the writings of some 34 scholars meant to illustrate this point are provided.
The citations for this excerpt are
Not surprising for a genocide denier to use “The Slaughter" instead of "Genocide" --Armatura ( talk) 20:37, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
How can it be considered outdated, ZaniGiovanni?– sources making occasional undue claims are not good enough to include the claims, hence me calling it WP:UNDUE. Moreover, outdated means the source is 70yr old, and WP:AGEMATTERS applies here. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 20:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
It is not his fault that Kazimzade's works are used in the works of genocide denialists. He wrote his work with academic sources and methods, and this is an issue that should interest us. Whoever speculates is not the problem here. Armenian Genocide is not discussed here, Armatura. -- Qızılbaş ( talk) 22:43, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
I think there are some mistakes in your thinking about the methodology of history. If a historian writes a scientific work about the beginning of the twentieth century, he must refer to the sources of that period. Otherwise, how are thoughts about history formed, ZaniGiovanni ?-- Qızılbaş ( talk) 22:42, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
Here is another source that confirm the violent role of Dashnaks in the events of 1905. Dashnaks were the main terrorist organization in the Caucasus before the Russian revolution of 1917:
While in the Russian capitals and large provincial centers the PSR was the party most actively involved in terrorist practices, in the Caucasus the Armenian Revolutionary Party "Dashnaktsutiun" (Union), was responsible for the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks. This organization, founded in the region in 1890, and operating under the motto "Freedom or death," had acquired significant strength and sympathy among the local population by 1903, largely because of its nationalist orientation. Initially, its primary efforts were directed toward liberation of the Armenians living under Turkish rule. The party enjoyed the support of the central Russian administration in this goal, which was fully in accord with tsarist foreign policy directed against Turkey. But following St. Petersburg's 12 June 1903 edict bringing Armenian church property under imperial control, and thus undermining the economic foundation of the Armenian nationalist forces led by the Dashnaktsutiun, the party leadership assumed a militantly anti-Russian stand.
The party's position as a unifying force for the oppressed and divided nation was responsible for its enormous popularity among various patriotic elements across the entire territory of Russian Armenia. The Dashnaktsutiun was able to organize numerous well-armed combat forces composed primarily of thousands of Armenian refugees from Turkey - young, homeless, propertyless vagabonds with no family ties-who had been permitted in 1901 to settle in various cities of Russian Transcaucasia. Most of them were not trained in any trade and knew only how to use their knives. At the same time, the organization acquired enormous funds as a result of voluntary and forced donations from the Armenian population for its war against the Muslims - contributions that became particularly generous after the beginning of virtual civil war between the Armenians and the Tatars in the Caucasus in 1905.
The outbreak of the revolutionary upheaval in the same year led to a split in the Dashnkatsutiun movement. While many rightist elements in the party still emphasized the old goals of combating the Turks and unifying the Armenians under the protection of the Russian government, the leftists, influenced by Russian Socialist-Revolutionary ideology and tactics, joined other radical forces in their war against the autocracy. Their primary socioeconomic and political demands included self-determination for the entire Armenian nation. It was these Dashnaki revolutionaries, hardened by their bloody struggles with the Turks and the Tatars, who for the time being dominated the decisionmaking process in the party, simultaneously using relentless violence to establish control over various localities in the Caucasus.
Anna Geifman, Thou Shalt Kill: Revolutionary Terrorism in Russia, 1894–1917. Princeton University Press, 1993
Grand master 10:44, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
Viceroy Vorontsov-Dashkov was not Azerbaijani|Turkish|Turkic and even Muslim. He was a Russian Empire's viceory in Caucasus during massacres. And Tadeusz Swietochowski wrote (soruce - Russian Azerbaijan, 1905–1920. The Shaping of a National Identity in a Muslim Community. Cambridge University Press. pp. 43. ISBN 978-0-521-52245-8.) that He was closer to the Armenians and logically would not have lied in this report.-- Qızılbaş ( talk) 17:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
ZaniGiovanni, You do not accept what historians say\write. At least, accept the official state sources of that time.– These kinds of mini rants are entertaining, but I have low tolerance to them. Consider this a last warning of WP:NPA. Regarding Voronstsov, you also don't seem to comprehend what WP:PRIMARY and WP:AGEMATTERS mean. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 08:42, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
For example, is it possible not to use official archival documents when writing an academic book on Russia's policy in the Caucasus? I think that an article written by a professor who has a PhD at Harvard and worked as a historian at Yale University should be included, citing an official government document. I think some third party will say the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qızılbaş ( talk • contribs)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Hello, Steverci. Firuz Kazimzadeh was born in Russia, his father is Iranian and his mother is Russian. In addition, his work is one of the main sources recommended for this period in prestigious universities. We should not be rooted in the ethnic origin of the people. There is also a reference to an Armenian source. This is not a problem for me, if the source is from a reliable university and a publishing house, it should not be a problem. See also: Wikipedia:Reliable sources-- Qızılbaş ( talk) 13:57, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
- It is one of the most cited works on the history of the South Caucasus (1917-1920), perhaps the first. So it is not outdated or biased. You can see and reah theese articles and books from this link - https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:vN_KzV1uMCYJ:scholar.google.com/&scioq=&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 - Michael Karpovich noted that Armenian and Georgian authors wrote mainly in Russian, French and German. So he was used Armenian authors' books from Western languages. For example, Devderiani, Press Bureauo Armenian National Union of America, Ishkhanian, Minakhorian, Tchalkhouchian, Turabian, Khachapuridze, Suren and Stepan Shaumuian, Avalov, Borian and others. Let me note that these sources are only part of the general Armenian sources. On the contrary, Azerbaijani resources were rarely used. But this does not affect the academic quality of the book. - Most importantly, the reference to my attachments is neither, as you say, Salahi Sonyel (he was only 19 at the time :)), nor an Azerbaijani source. It is the report of the person who was the successor of the Caucasus at that time. This report is still kept in St. Petersburg. I also mentioned the location, you can go and buy and check.-- Qızılbaş ( talk) 10:37, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Qızılbaş you're edit-warring and using WP:UNDUE book, and quotes from genocide denier, clear conflict of interest. You failed to address talk points previously and now when the user you had disagreement with is tbanned for a completely different article, you're here again disrupting the page with no consensus additions. One more disruption from you and failure to discuss, and you'll be reported. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 16:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
The TCA, formed in 2007 with $30 million from Turkish-American businessman Yalcin Ayasli has made the“academic controversy”project a major focus, funding publications that attempt to undermine the historicity of the Armenian Genocide, supporting a major project at the University of Utah (the Turkish Studies Project), and re-peating the existence of a scholarly debate. A section of its website is headlined,“The Ottoman Armenian Tragedy Is a Genuine Historic Controversy / Many Reputable Scholars Challenge the Conventional, One-Sided Anti-Turkish Narrative and/or Refrainfrom Alleging the Crime of Genocide.” and that “The notion that the one-sided Armenian narrative is settled history does not reflect the truth and must be utterly rejected.” Excerpts from the writings of some 34 scholars meant to illustrate this point are provided.
The citations for this excerpt are
Not surprising for a genocide denier to use “The Slaughter" instead of "Genocide" --Armatura ( talk) 20:37, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
How can it be considered outdated, ZaniGiovanni?– sources making occasional undue claims are not good enough to include the claims, hence me calling it WP:UNDUE. Moreover, outdated means the source is 70yr old, and WP:AGEMATTERS applies here. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 20:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
It is not his fault that Kazimzade's works are used in the works of genocide denialists. He wrote his work with academic sources and methods, and this is an issue that should interest us. Whoever speculates is not the problem here. Armenian Genocide is not discussed here, Armatura. -- Qızılbaş ( talk) 22:43, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
I think there are some mistakes in your thinking about the methodology of history. If a historian writes a scientific work about the beginning of the twentieth century, he must refer to the sources of that period. Otherwise, how are thoughts about history formed, ZaniGiovanni ?-- Qızılbaş ( talk) 22:42, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
Here is another source that confirm the violent role of Dashnaks in the events of 1905. Dashnaks were the main terrorist organization in the Caucasus before the Russian revolution of 1917:
While in the Russian capitals and large provincial centers the PSR was the party most actively involved in terrorist practices, in the Caucasus the Armenian Revolutionary Party "Dashnaktsutiun" (Union), was responsible for the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks. This organization, founded in the region in 1890, and operating under the motto "Freedom or death," had acquired significant strength and sympathy among the local population by 1903, largely because of its nationalist orientation. Initially, its primary efforts were directed toward liberation of the Armenians living under Turkish rule. The party enjoyed the support of the central Russian administration in this goal, which was fully in accord with tsarist foreign policy directed against Turkey. But following St. Petersburg's 12 June 1903 edict bringing Armenian church property under imperial control, and thus undermining the economic foundation of the Armenian nationalist forces led by the Dashnaktsutiun, the party leadership assumed a militantly anti-Russian stand.
The party's position as a unifying force for the oppressed and divided nation was responsible for its enormous popularity among various patriotic elements across the entire territory of Russian Armenia. The Dashnaktsutiun was able to organize numerous well-armed combat forces composed primarily of thousands of Armenian refugees from Turkey - young, homeless, propertyless vagabonds with no family ties-who had been permitted in 1901 to settle in various cities of Russian Transcaucasia. Most of them were not trained in any trade and knew only how to use their knives. At the same time, the organization acquired enormous funds as a result of voluntary and forced donations from the Armenian population for its war against the Muslims - contributions that became particularly generous after the beginning of virtual civil war between the Armenians and the Tatars in the Caucasus in 1905.
The outbreak of the revolutionary upheaval in the same year led to a split in the Dashnkatsutiun movement. While many rightist elements in the party still emphasized the old goals of combating the Turks and unifying the Armenians under the protection of the Russian government, the leftists, influenced by Russian Socialist-Revolutionary ideology and tactics, joined other radical forces in their war against the autocracy. Their primary socioeconomic and political demands included self-determination for the entire Armenian nation. It was these Dashnaki revolutionaries, hardened by their bloody struggles with the Turks and the Tatars, who for the time being dominated the decisionmaking process in the party, simultaneously using relentless violence to establish control over various localities in the Caucasus.
Anna Geifman, Thou Shalt Kill: Revolutionary Terrorism in Russia, 1894–1917. Princeton University Press, 1993
Grand master 10:44, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
Viceroy Vorontsov-Dashkov was not Azerbaijani|Turkish|Turkic and even Muslim. He was a Russian Empire's viceory in Caucasus during massacres. And Tadeusz Swietochowski wrote (soruce - Russian Azerbaijan, 1905–1920. The Shaping of a National Identity in a Muslim Community. Cambridge University Press. pp. 43. ISBN 978-0-521-52245-8.) that He was closer to the Armenians and logically would not have lied in this report.-- Qızılbaş ( talk) 17:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
ZaniGiovanni, You do not accept what historians say\write. At least, accept the official state sources of that time.– These kinds of mini rants are entertaining, but I have low tolerance to them. Consider this a last warning of WP:NPA. Regarding Voronstsov, you also don't seem to comprehend what WP:PRIMARY and WP:AGEMATTERS mean. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 08:42, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
For example, is it possible not to use official archival documents when writing an academic book on Russia's policy in the Caucasus? I think that an article written by a professor who has a PhD at Harvard and worked as a historian at Yale University should be included, citing an official government document. I think some third party will say the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qızılbaş ( talk • contribs)