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It is not possible to claim that Azerbaijan invaded territory of Armenia, because there's no established border at the moment, and no investigation has been conducted. Macron and EU parliament only express their opinion, but an opinion is not a fact, in the absence of a fact finding mission. So any opinion should be attributed, and not presented as a fact. Grand master 16:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Hello Grandmaster, can you please explain your edit here [ 1]聽? You changed from "establish it through the use of force" to "compel Armenia", claiming "Inaccurate translation from Russian. Added link to original speech". While Aliev clearly said 鈥淭he creation of the Zangezur corridor fully meets our national, historical and future interests. We are implementing the Zangezur Corridor, whether Armenia wants it or not. If she wants, we will solve this issue easier, if she does not want, we will solve it by force" on his April interview [ 2]. You also linked an unrelated to his April quotes article from March 6. Kindly explain your rationale here, as this just seems like a whitewash attempt (and a bad one I might add). Regards, ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 10:00, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Hello. Someone is deliberately adding false information to the infobox. First, they used multiple reports of the same incident to raise the number of injured Azeri servicemen to 5, then they used Armenian claim that Azerbaijan denied ( https://publika.az/news/nida_xeber/364261.html) as Per Azerbaijan. Can someone intervene in this? 185.81.80.130 ( talk) 07:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
You are using a source that does not even match. Next time learn the rules before trying to make a report and read the sources. Azerbaijan did not deny the one drone shot down over an hour ago with picture evidence. It denied a separate incident.
User:ZaniGiovanni, you've done the same exact thing. Please read above. That's not Per Azerbaijan. 185.81.80.200 ( talk) 23:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
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Put {{ pp-dispute}} at the top lomrjyo( talk鈥 contrib) 11:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
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Armenian Ministry of Defence claims that Azerbaijani forces fired upon a a logistic support vehicle delivering food to the Armenian military positions in Yeraskh. As a result, this vehicle was seriously damaged (source: Armenia Today). This information should be added to the timeline section, and the text "1 military truck damaged" should be added to the infobox. 185.81.82.110 ( talk) 19:57, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
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Grammar fixes:
"in Armenia鈥揘akhchivan border." to "on the Armenia鈥揘akhchivan border."
"The clashes then spread to Gegharkunik鈥揔albajar area." to "The clashes then spread to the Gegharkunik鈥揔albajar area." AntonSamuel ( talk) 18:36, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
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"On 11 October 2021, an Armenian civilian named Aram Tepnants was shot dead by Azerbaijani snipers in the village of Martakert."
"On 15 October 2021, Azerbaijani MoD reported that an Azerbaijani soldier was killed by an Armenian sniper fire."
These are not related to the Armenian-Azerbaijani border crisis, but the Artsakh conflict. Also, "On 15 and 16 October 2021, Azerbaijani forces undertook shelling measures against the village of Yeraskh, causing fires which damaged crops belonging to the Armenian villagers." Change this to a neutral tone, all sources are Armenian and Azerbaijani denied this [1].
{{
edit protected}}
template. This is clearly a controversial request. As for "Azerbaijan denied this", well, duh,
of course they did, and so long we clearly attribute the statements to the Azerbaijani MoD, readers get all the information they need to be able to judge the validity of this.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
19:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)The source "Armenpress" is being owned directly by Armenians. The source is not Trustable. Please try to consolidate your claims about civilian injuries with objective media. BerkBerk68 ( talk) 15:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
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Update casualties on infobox. Today, 15 soldiers were killed, and 12 more were captured on Armenia's side. This means that overall 23 soldiers were killed and 18 were captured. Source.
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Update casualties on infobox. Armenian government reports that one of their soldiers were killed, 13 became POWs and 24 are missing source.
After the 44-day war in Karabakh, the irretrievable losses of the defense and security sector of Azerbaijan from November 10, 2020 to January 31, 2021 amounted to 110 people, Turan reports citing the Caspian Institute of Military Research.
According to the institute, 15 soldiers died in combat conditions, 10 were blown up by mines, the rest died in non-combat conditions.
Most of the deaths of the military were confirmed by the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan and other law enforcement agencies.
In addition to 15 soldiers who died in combat and 10 who were blown up by mines, another 14 people died as a result of a helicopter crash, 12 in car accidents, 12 as a result of accidents, 10 died of diseases, 9 died unknown reasons, 9 - from war injuries, 5 - as a result of hazing, 2 - during special operations, 12 - committed suicide.
Of the total losses, 84, including 11 combat and 73 non-combat, occurred in 2021.
At the same time, in the pre-war 2019, according to the Institute, irretrievable losses amounted to 47 people, including 9 of them who died in combat conditions, 38 - non-combat.
In January 2022, the losses already amounted to 11 people, including 1 military man died in combat conditions, 3 died as a result of hazing, 2 - for unknown reasons, 3 - due to illness, 1 - as a result of an accident, 1 - committed suicide.
The Caspian Institute of Military Research notes a trend of increasing losses, and especially non-combat ones.
https://caspiandefense.wordpress.com/2022/01/31/v蓹t蓹n-muharib蓹sind蓹n-sonra-az蓹rbaycan-azi-110-h蓹rbcisini-itirib/ 鈥斅燩receding
unsigned comment added by
SoadCore1 (
talk 鈥
contribs)
15:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
What is the impact of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine on this crisis? Is it getting worse due to it, or is a distraction of Russia making it less bad? MaitreyaVaruna ( talk) 20:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
These attacks happened several hours ago and I鈥檓 surprised nothing has been written about it. 159.250.110.3 ( talk) 00:13, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
I recently reverted some unsourced changes to the causalities numbers. I didn't really check the sources, but their multitude sugggest a WP:OR effort to sum them up, which makes already usually untrustworthy figures even more problematic. I think the numbers should be rechecked, updated and if possible supported by a single source. 109.119.205.238 ( talk) 01:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Was there any discussion on the article move to include 2023? Last timeline update seems to be October 2022, there is no mention in the article for 2023 currently. - Indefensible ( talk) 04:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
For this article (and also in related articles), a map that actually shows Armenian territory that is ocupied, should be created and added. It would be useful, because it would show the precise location.
The map in the article only shows the border battles of 2021. More battles have taken place since then, including this year and this month.
For instance a map released by Armenia, showing its territories that have been occupied during this border conflict, could be useful:
https://oc-media.org/armenia-releases-map-of-territories-seized-by-azerbaijan-since-2020/
I sent a request in Wikimedia Commons to the original uploader of File:2021 Armenia-Azerbaijan Border Clashes.svg which is inside the information box of this article. Hopefully the user agrees and creates a map.
Multituberculata ( talk) 09:34, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
I notice the article has included military incursions by Azerbaijan into both Armenia and Artsakh.
However, the bulk of the article and its title suggest the crisis is specific to Republic of Armenia and not Artsakh.
These are different territories with different governments and different recognition from international bodies.
I will be moving the reports of territorial incursions by Azerbaijan into Artsakh into a subsection, that is distinct from the main article. Once this is done, it might be worth renaming the article or moving that section to its own article (depending on how much content there is).
any feedback?
Humanatbest (
talk)
16:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
You have implemented the following change:
Original:
"Various countries, supranational organizations, and human rights organizations have called for an end to the hostilities: advocating for bilateral border demarcation, respect for the 2020 ceasefire conditions, and for Azerbaijan to pull back its forces."
Your version:
"Various countries, supranational organizations, and human rights organizations have called for an end to the hostilities and supporting bilateral border demarcation, respecting the terms of the 2020 ceasefire agreement, and for Azerbaijan to pull back its forces from Armenian territory."
Most English style guidelines (
including the Wikipedia article on colons) state that colons are used before a list, a description, or an explanation.
"What follows the colon may or may not be a complete sentence, and it may be a mere list or even a single word." [2]
You cited "run-on sentence" in the edit summary, but a quick comparison of the original and your version of these sentence suggests that the original version is, in fact, more concise. You also have confusingly inter-mixed the list with commas and/or "and" conjunctions.
Also, it is common for a semi-colon to precede the word however.
[3] Using 鈥渉owever鈥 as a conjunctive adverb: 鈥淗owever鈥 can be used to join two simple sentences to make a compound sentence. 鈥淗owever鈥 indicates the relationship between the two independent clauses is one of contrast or opposition. Use a semicolon before and a comma after 鈥渉owever鈥 when you are using it to write a compound sentence: "The engineers claimed that the bridge was safe; however, they were still not prepared to risk crossing."
You are correct, however, that I should have put however in lowercase here.
This is mostly stylistic but I thought I would bring this to your attention given that you have a penchant for grammar聽:) I hope you have a great day! Humanatbest ( talk) 21:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
The lead and article go on about Azerbaijan鈥檚 violations, but from this article and related ones I can鈥檛 find any information about whether Armenian forces withdrew from Nagorno-Karabakh as agreed in the November 2020 ceasefire. If so, this should be mentioned for information. If not, Armenia would also be in violation, and this should be mentioned for NPOV. 聽鈥 Michael聽 Z. 16:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Ecrusized, regarding this edit: [4]. Azerbaijan does not control any villages on Armenia's territory. Azerbaijan only controls Armenia's exclave of Artsvashen within Azerbaijan since 1990s, while Armenia controls 8 Azerbaijani villages (4 border villages within Azerbaijan, and 4 Azerbaijani exclaves within Armenia, including Karki, Yukhari Askipara, Ba臒anis Ayrum, Barxudarl谋 and others). Armenia says that Azerbaijan controls agricultural lands in Armenia that belong to 31 villages, but not the actual villages. This is a better source:
Azerbaijani leaders regularly accuse Armenia of occupying 鈥渆ight Azerbaijani villages.鈥 They refer to border areas, most of them enclaves inside Armenia, which were controlled by Azerbaijan in Soviet times and occupied by the Armenian army in the early 1990s.
For its part, the Azerbaijani side seized at the time a bigger Armenian enclave as well as large swathes of agricultural land belonging to this and other border communities of Armenia. It occupied more Armenian territory during border clashes in 2021 and 2022.
The Armenian government says that a total of 200 square kilometers of Armenia鈥檚 internationally recognized territory adjacent to 31 communities is now controlled by Azerbaijan. It says that it is ready, in principle, to consider swapping the formerly Azerbaijani enclaves for those lands or seek other compromise solutions. [5]
Here's another source on those border villages: [6] I believe the background to the present tensions at the border with occupied villages and territories on both sides needs to be properly explained in the lead as well. Grand master 10:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster: I see, thanks for the clarification. Ecrusized ( talk) 13:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
This article was written when there was an active conflict after a specific incident and war at the border. But things seems to have changed, the crisis itself is not a crisis, I feel like crisis refers to something that happens in a limited timeframe, as the border is being demarcated, and Armenia has returned 4 villages and there is an agreement to demarcate the border based on Alma Ata Declaration, I feel like crisis is the wrong word, its not like there are emergency talks in Brussels and Washington about a full scale war or something like that. outside of sporadic crossfire(which we see on many borders around the world), things are relatively quiet.
I feel like changing the article name and restructuring the article makes sense, Call it border dispute, give the background, mention the demarcation commission, the alma ata agreement that was agreed to recently as cited by Pashinyan in returning 4 villages. And then have subsections that mention the sporadic incidents that do happen from time to time.
It doesn't make sense for a crisis to have the timeframe of 30+ years. I feel like Crisis is something more immediate like something that happens, then it dies down or is resolved. On and off things, which have some resolution and some agreements here and there, where the leaderships meet sometimes in tense situations, other times in less tense situations over the span of several years, doesn't seem like a real "crisis".
What do you guys think? Midgetman433 ( talk) 15:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
"Crisis" is the accurate word given it has included the killing of hundreds of people, the September 2022 attacks, which many observers interpreted as Azerbaijan trying to split Armenia in two, the fact that multiple observers consider the crisis as Azerbaijan + Turkey trying to turn Armenia into a rump state by seizing Syunik, that multiple Armenians in border villages have fled fearing their safety, that Azerbaijan effectively split Armenia in two when it seized the north-south route, that both Russia and the EU and Iran have increased their presence on borders in Armenia to deter an Azeri invasion and give "psychological reassurance" to Armenians. Vanezi ( talk) 09:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
This article is bloated with excessive and sometimes irrelevant information. For example, the information on Nagorno-Karabakh is duplicated from a number of articles we have on the conflict, including the ones on recent developments, such as 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh. The Karabakh conflict is distinct from the border disputes between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and I see no point in duplicating information in multiple articles. Also, that section has NPOV issues too. Like, the title Territorial incursions into the Republic of Artsakh does not make much sense, because a country cannot make territorial incursions into its own sovereign territory. Subsection Current situation is not current all. I suggest we remove this section completely and keep the article focused on the border dispute, which is the actual topic of this article. Grand master 13:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border crisis be
renamed and moved to
Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border dispute.
result: Move logs:
source title聽路
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border crisis 鈫 Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border dispute 鈥 Armenia-Azerbaijan border dispute has a long history that started in 1990s, when both countries became independent from the USSR. It is not a single crisis, but rather a continuous over 3 decades long border dispute that sometimes escalated to hostilities. In addition, there are currently border delimitation talks with parties agreeing on delimiting certain sections of the border. I believe the proposed name better reflects all those aspects of the situation. Grand master 10:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
The information that was removed from the lead is actually the most important recent development on the border. And it is not just news, but a real change of the situation. There has been no active conflict and no shooting at the border for months now. And the fact that the two countries agreed on principles of delimitation and installed over 40 border markers is very important to mention not just in the body of the article, but also in the lead, because the reader now only gets the impression of some ongoing conflict, while there is a practical work underway to resolve the border disputes. Grand master 14:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Also, this information is appropriate to the background, otherwise it is not clear why Armenia is returning these villages in 2024. Since they were occupied in 1990s, this should be mentioned in the background section, as the events preceding the present stage of the border dispute. Grand master 10:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the lead section mention the border delimitation agreement reached between Armenia and Azerbaijan in April 2024? Please see this section: [33] Grand master 09:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Please enter Option 1 or Option 2, followed by a brief statement, in the Survey. Do not reply to other users in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion may be conducted in the Discussion section. Grand master 09:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
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It is not possible to claim that Azerbaijan invaded territory of Armenia, because there's no established border at the moment, and no investigation has been conducted. Macron and EU parliament only express their opinion, but an opinion is not a fact, in the absence of a fact finding mission. So any opinion should be attributed, and not presented as a fact. Grand master 16:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Hello Grandmaster, can you please explain your edit here [ 1]聽? You changed from "establish it through the use of force" to "compel Armenia", claiming "Inaccurate translation from Russian. Added link to original speech". While Aliev clearly said 鈥淭he creation of the Zangezur corridor fully meets our national, historical and future interests. We are implementing the Zangezur Corridor, whether Armenia wants it or not. If she wants, we will solve this issue easier, if she does not want, we will solve it by force" on his April interview [ 2]. You also linked an unrelated to his April quotes article from March 6. Kindly explain your rationale here, as this just seems like a whitewash attempt (and a bad one I might add). Regards, ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 10:00, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Hello. Someone is deliberately adding false information to the infobox. First, they used multiple reports of the same incident to raise the number of injured Azeri servicemen to 5, then they used Armenian claim that Azerbaijan denied ( https://publika.az/news/nida_xeber/364261.html) as Per Azerbaijan. Can someone intervene in this? 185.81.80.130 ( talk) 07:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
You are using a source that does not even match. Next time learn the rules before trying to make a report and read the sources. Azerbaijan did not deny the one drone shot down over an hour ago with picture evidence. It denied a separate incident.
User:ZaniGiovanni, you've done the same exact thing. Please read above. That's not Per Azerbaijan. 185.81.80.200 ( talk) 23:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
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Put {{ pp-dispute}} at the top lomrjyo( talk鈥 contrib) 11:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
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Armenian Ministry of Defence claims that Azerbaijani forces fired upon a a logistic support vehicle delivering food to the Armenian military positions in Yeraskh. As a result, this vehicle was seriously damaged (source: Armenia Today). This information should be added to the timeline section, and the text "1 military truck damaged" should be added to the infobox. 185.81.82.110 ( talk) 19:57, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
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Grammar fixes:
"in Armenia鈥揘akhchivan border." to "on the Armenia鈥揘akhchivan border."
"The clashes then spread to Gegharkunik鈥揔albajar area." to "The clashes then spread to the Gegharkunik鈥揔albajar area." AntonSamuel ( talk) 18:36, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
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"On 11 October 2021, an Armenian civilian named Aram Tepnants was shot dead by Azerbaijani snipers in the village of Martakert."
"On 15 October 2021, Azerbaijani MoD reported that an Azerbaijani soldier was killed by an Armenian sniper fire."
These are not related to the Armenian-Azerbaijani border crisis, but the Artsakh conflict. Also, "On 15 and 16 October 2021, Azerbaijani forces undertook shelling measures against the village of Yeraskh, causing fires which damaged crops belonging to the Armenian villagers." Change this to a neutral tone, all sources are Armenian and Azerbaijani denied this [1].
{{
edit protected}}
template. This is clearly a controversial request. As for "Azerbaijan denied this", well, duh,
of course they did, and so long we clearly attribute the statements to the Azerbaijani MoD, readers get all the information they need to be able to judge the validity of this.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
19:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)The source "Armenpress" is being owned directly by Armenians. The source is not Trustable. Please try to consolidate your claims about civilian injuries with objective media. BerkBerk68 ( talk) 15:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
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2021 Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border crisis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Update casualties on infobox. Today, 15 soldiers were killed, and 12 more were captured on Armenia's side. This means that overall 23 soldiers were killed and 18 were captured. Source.
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Update casualties on infobox. Armenian government reports that one of their soldiers were killed, 13 became POWs and 24 are missing source.
After the 44-day war in Karabakh, the irretrievable losses of the defense and security sector of Azerbaijan from November 10, 2020 to January 31, 2021 amounted to 110 people, Turan reports citing the Caspian Institute of Military Research.
According to the institute, 15 soldiers died in combat conditions, 10 were blown up by mines, the rest died in non-combat conditions.
Most of the deaths of the military were confirmed by the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan and other law enforcement agencies.
In addition to 15 soldiers who died in combat and 10 who were blown up by mines, another 14 people died as a result of a helicopter crash, 12 in car accidents, 12 as a result of accidents, 10 died of diseases, 9 died unknown reasons, 9 - from war injuries, 5 - as a result of hazing, 2 - during special operations, 12 - committed suicide.
Of the total losses, 84, including 11 combat and 73 non-combat, occurred in 2021.
At the same time, in the pre-war 2019, according to the Institute, irretrievable losses amounted to 47 people, including 9 of them who died in combat conditions, 38 - non-combat.
In January 2022, the losses already amounted to 11 people, including 1 military man died in combat conditions, 3 died as a result of hazing, 2 - for unknown reasons, 3 - due to illness, 1 - as a result of an accident, 1 - committed suicide.
The Caspian Institute of Military Research notes a trend of increasing losses, and especially non-combat ones.
https://caspiandefense.wordpress.com/2022/01/31/v蓹t蓹n-muharib蓹sind蓹n-sonra-az蓹rbaycan-azi-110-h蓹rbcisini-itirib/ 鈥斅燩receding
unsigned comment added by
SoadCore1 (
talk 鈥
contribs)
15:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
What is the impact of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine on this crisis? Is it getting worse due to it, or is a distraction of Russia making it less bad? MaitreyaVaruna ( talk) 20:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
These attacks happened several hours ago and I鈥檓 surprised nothing has been written about it. 159.250.110.3 ( talk) 00:13, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
I recently reverted some unsourced changes to the causalities numbers. I didn't really check the sources, but their multitude sugggest a WP:OR effort to sum them up, which makes already usually untrustworthy figures even more problematic. I think the numbers should be rechecked, updated and if possible supported by a single source. 109.119.205.238 ( talk) 01:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Was there any discussion on the article move to include 2023? Last timeline update seems to be October 2022, there is no mention in the article for 2023 currently. - Indefensible ( talk) 04:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
For this article (and also in related articles), a map that actually shows Armenian territory that is ocupied, should be created and added. It would be useful, because it would show the precise location.
The map in the article only shows the border battles of 2021. More battles have taken place since then, including this year and this month.
For instance a map released by Armenia, showing its territories that have been occupied during this border conflict, could be useful:
https://oc-media.org/armenia-releases-map-of-territories-seized-by-azerbaijan-since-2020/
I sent a request in Wikimedia Commons to the original uploader of File:2021 Armenia-Azerbaijan Border Clashes.svg which is inside the information box of this article. Hopefully the user agrees and creates a map.
Multituberculata ( talk) 09:34, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
I notice the article has included military incursions by Azerbaijan into both Armenia and Artsakh.
However, the bulk of the article and its title suggest the crisis is specific to Republic of Armenia and not Artsakh.
These are different territories with different governments and different recognition from international bodies.
I will be moving the reports of territorial incursions by Azerbaijan into Artsakh into a subsection, that is distinct from the main article. Once this is done, it might be worth renaming the article or moving that section to its own article (depending on how much content there is).
any feedback?
Humanatbest (
talk)
16:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
You have implemented the following change:
Original:
"Various countries, supranational organizations, and human rights organizations have called for an end to the hostilities: advocating for bilateral border demarcation, respect for the 2020 ceasefire conditions, and for Azerbaijan to pull back its forces."
Your version:
"Various countries, supranational organizations, and human rights organizations have called for an end to the hostilities and supporting bilateral border demarcation, respecting the terms of the 2020 ceasefire agreement, and for Azerbaijan to pull back its forces from Armenian territory."
Most English style guidelines (
including the Wikipedia article on colons) state that colons are used before a list, a description, or an explanation.
"What follows the colon may or may not be a complete sentence, and it may be a mere list or even a single word." [2]
You cited "run-on sentence" in the edit summary, but a quick comparison of the original and your version of these sentence suggests that the original version is, in fact, more concise. You also have confusingly inter-mixed the list with commas and/or "and" conjunctions.
Also, it is common for a semi-colon to precede the word however.
[3] Using 鈥渉owever鈥 as a conjunctive adverb: 鈥淗owever鈥 can be used to join two simple sentences to make a compound sentence. 鈥淗owever鈥 indicates the relationship between the two independent clauses is one of contrast or opposition. Use a semicolon before and a comma after 鈥渉owever鈥 when you are using it to write a compound sentence: "The engineers claimed that the bridge was safe; however, they were still not prepared to risk crossing."
You are correct, however, that I should have put however in lowercase here.
This is mostly stylistic but I thought I would bring this to your attention given that you have a penchant for grammar聽:) I hope you have a great day! Humanatbest ( talk) 21:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
The lead and article go on about Azerbaijan鈥檚 violations, but from this article and related ones I can鈥檛 find any information about whether Armenian forces withdrew from Nagorno-Karabakh as agreed in the November 2020 ceasefire. If so, this should be mentioned for information. If not, Armenia would also be in violation, and this should be mentioned for NPOV. 聽鈥 Michael聽 Z. 16:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Ecrusized, regarding this edit: [4]. Azerbaijan does not control any villages on Armenia's territory. Azerbaijan only controls Armenia's exclave of Artsvashen within Azerbaijan since 1990s, while Armenia controls 8 Azerbaijani villages (4 border villages within Azerbaijan, and 4 Azerbaijani exclaves within Armenia, including Karki, Yukhari Askipara, Ba臒anis Ayrum, Barxudarl谋 and others). Armenia says that Azerbaijan controls agricultural lands in Armenia that belong to 31 villages, but not the actual villages. This is a better source:
Azerbaijani leaders regularly accuse Armenia of occupying 鈥渆ight Azerbaijani villages.鈥 They refer to border areas, most of them enclaves inside Armenia, which were controlled by Azerbaijan in Soviet times and occupied by the Armenian army in the early 1990s.
For its part, the Azerbaijani side seized at the time a bigger Armenian enclave as well as large swathes of agricultural land belonging to this and other border communities of Armenia. It occupied more Armenian territory during border clashes in 2021 and 2022.
The Armenian government says that a total of 200 square kilometers of Armenia鈥檚 internationally recognized territory adjacent to 31 communities is now controlled by Azerbaijan. It says that it is ready, in principle, to consider swapping the formerly Azerbaijani enclaves for those lands or seek other compromise solutions. [5]
Here's another source on those border villages: [6] I believe the background to the present tensions at the border with occupied villages and territories on both sides needs to be properly explained in the lead as well. Grand master 10:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster: I see, thanks for the clarification. Ecrusized ( talk) 13:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
This article was written when there was an active conflict after a specific incident and war at the border. But things seems to have changed, the crisis itself is not a crisis, I feel like crisis refers to something that happens in a limited timeframe, as the border is being demarcated, and Armenia has returned 4 villages and there is an agreement to demarcate the border based on Alma Ata Declaration, I feel like crisis is the wrong word, its not like there are emergency talks in Brussels and Washington about a full scale war or something like that. outside of sporadic crossfire(which we see on many borders around the world), things are relatively quiet.
I feel like changing the article name and restructuring the article makes sense, Call it border dispute, give the background, mention the demarcation commission, the alma ata agreement that was agreed to recently as cited by Pashinyan in returning 4 villages. And then have subsections that mention the sporadic incidents that do happen from time to time.
It doesn't make sense for a crisis to have the timeframe of 30+ years. I feel like Crisis is something more immediate like something that happens, then it dies down or is resolved. On and off things, which have some resolution and some agreements here and there, where the leaderships meet sometimes in tense situations, other times in less tense situations over the span of several years, doesn't seem like a real "crisis".
What do you guys think? Midgetman433 ( talk) 15:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
"Crisis" is the accurate word given it has included the killing of hundreds of people, the September 2022 attacks, which many observers interpreted as Azerbaijan trying to split Armenia in two, the fact that multiple observers consider the crisis as Azerbaijan + Turkey trying to turn Armenia into a rump state by seizing Syunik, that multiple Armenians in border villages have fled fearing their safety, that Azerbaijan effectively split Armenia in two when it seized the north-south route, that both Russia and the EU and Iran have increased their presence on borders in Armenia to deter an Azeri invasion and give "psychological reassurance" to Armenians. Vanezi ( talk) 09:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
This article is bloated with excessive and sometimes irrelevant information. For example, the information on Nagorno-Karabakh is duplicated from a number of articles we have on the conflict, including the ones on recent developments, such as 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh. The Karabakh conflict is distinct from the border disputes between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and I see no point in duplicating information in multiple articles. Also, that section has NPOV issues too. Like, the title Territorial incursions into the Republic of Artsakh does not make much sense, because a country cannot make territorial incursions into its own sovereign territory. Subsection Current situation is not current all. I suggest we remove this section completely and keep the article focused on the border dispute, which is the actual topic of this article. Grand master 13:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border crisis be
renamed and moved to
Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border dispute.
result: Move logs:
source title聽路
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border crisis 鈫 Armenia鈥揂zerbaijan border dispute 鈥 Armenia-Azerbaijan border dispute has a long history that started in 1990s, when both countries became independent from the USSR. It is not a single crisis, but rather a continuous over 3 decades long border dispute that sometimes escalated to hostilities. In addition, there are currently border delimitation talks with parties agreeing on delimiting certain sections of the border. I believe the proposed name better reflects all those aspects of the situation. Grand master 10:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
The information that was removed from the lead is actually the most important recent development on the border. And it is not just news, but a real change of the situation. There has been no active conflict and no shooting at the border for months now. And the fact that the two countries agreed on principles of delimitation and installed over 40 border markers is very important to mention not just in the body of the article, but also in the lead, because the reader now only gets the impression of some ongoing conflict, while there is a practical work underway to resolve the border disputes. Grand master 14:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Also, this information is appropriate to the background, otherwise it is not clear why Armenia is returning these villages in 2024. Since they were occupied in 1990s, this should be mentioned in the background section, as the events preceding the present stage of the border dispute. Grand master 10:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the lead section mention the border delimitation agreement reached between Armenia and Azerbaijan in April 2024? Please see this section: [33] Grand master 09:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Please enter Option 1 or Option 2, followed by a brief statement, in the Survey. Do not reply to other users in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion may be conducted in the Discussion section. Grand master 09:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)