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Ariel Sharon, as an acting representative of a foreign government, is protected by international law. Therefore he could not be arrested in Belgium, or any other country that upholds the Vienna Convention of 1815. His visit was canceled as a sign of diplomatic protest, which is certainly in place. Also, Belgium is no "courthouse for the world", since most legal conventions disallow persecution by a country over crimes that happened in a foreign nation (and that did not involve any citizens of that country). Also, is not having a disco bombed with 21 murdered children a bad cause? I delete this. -- Uriyan
The Vienna Convention of 1815 is superceded by the Nuremberg Protocols which hold that being a head of state or head of government does not give one immunity from being charged and convicted with war crimes. 130.15.183.129 00:24, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Ariel Sharon, as an acting representative of a foreign government, is protected by international law." That is a question of some dispute -- Belgium argues that while government representatives can't be arrested for ordinary crimes, they can be arrested for war crimes, genocide, crimes against humanity, etc. The Vienna Convention of 1815? Don't you mean the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which dates from some time in the 60s I think. War crimes are crimes of universal jurisdiction under international law, thus any state in the world has the right to try war crimes cases, not just cases involving its own citizens or territory. (Also, legal jurisdiction is determined by customary international law, not by conventional international law.) Most states don't take advantage of this right they have, but Belgium does. Israel also does, that is how they tried Eichmann (the Holocaust did not occur on Israeli territory, and none of its victims here Israeli citizens at the time it occured, since Israel did not then exist.) And the last sentence is completely true: he cancelled the visit, many people said it was because he feared being arrested, but the official Israeli government reason was the bombing of a disco. Everything in that sentence is true, and I don't see what your problem is with it. -- SJK
Well, Belgium can claim whatever it wants, but it is Belgian law, not international. Also, again, while I am not thoroughly familiar with the current legalities, all the cases of war crimes that I know of were ever put on trial, were put on trial in an international court, not a Belgian court. The only contrary case happened in Belgium several years ago, but again, that's Belgium and its view on the problem.
As to the Eichmann trial, please note the following difference: Sharon's action took place Israel, which is a souverign country recognized by Belgium, and which exists now. Eichmann was an official of Nazi Germany, which was dissolved, and therefore unable to try him (he could be tried in Western Germany, but it was only the heir of Nazi Germany). Sharon could, theoretically, be taken to an Israeli court. I'm sure that much more significant differences exist, but unfortunately I'm not yet familiar enough with the international law to put up a better answer. I meant the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961, which was based on practice that originated in the Vienna Congress of 1815 (I apologize for my ignorance).
In addition to the above: although I hate to go ad hominem, I must say that you eagerness to mention Sabra and Shatila without doing any further research on the problem (like reading Kahan's report, which is freely available on the Internet) is regrettable and indicates that your bias is stronger than your desire to be objective. It is you and your decisions; however wouldn't you feel better if you didn't omit details another side in this conflict might consider important? -- Uriyan
I don't think international law protects anybody. Each state, being sovereign, does whatever it wants. It is customary to grant diplomatic immunity to individuals or classes of individuals.
The question Uriyan and SJK are discussing, needs clarification as to how Belgium would regard Sharon during a visit:
Its more than Belgian law, its what Belgian claims the international law on the matter is (whether or not Belgian is right ultimately depends on future state practice, court decisions, etc.).
As to jurisdiction: there are about five different basises for jurisdiction recognized under international law: territorial jurisdiction (crimes committed on territory of the state), nationality jurisdiction (crime committed by a national of the state), jurisdiction based on the vital interests of the state (forget what this one is called), jurisdiction based on the nationality of the victim (once widely rejected, but increasingly accepted for terrorist offences), and universal jurisdiction (any state in the world can try the crime, no matter where it was committed and by who). Universal jurisdiction however only applies to certain offenses (e.g. piracy, genocide), so the question would be whether or not universal jurisdiction applies to whatever they would might indict Sharon for. And the primary jurisdiction under international criminal law rests with national courts, not international courts; international courts can only exercise criminal jurisdiction over individuals when a state has delegated its own jurisdiction to that court, and an international court can have no more criminal jurisdiction than the states that made the delegation did.
This is all well established customary international law, and is accepted by just about everybody. Just because the law on this matter may only be rarely applied doesn't mean it does not exist. (If you want a nice summary of all this, get a textbook on international law.)
Secondly, the distinction you make between the Eichmann case and what Belgium claims the right to do is irrelevant. The exercise of universal jursidiction under international law is not dependent on whether or not it is possible for the territorial state or the state of nationality to try it. Of course, if the territorial or nationality state (i.e. either Lebanon or Israel) is willing and able to try Sharon, then it has the right to do so instead of Belgium. But if either is unwilling or unable to do so for whatever reason, then (presuming universal jurisdiction applies to what Belgium indicts Sharon for), Belgium has the right to try him. The only possible difference is the question of whether or not what they seek to charge Sharon with is subject to universal jurisdiction. (Genocide, with which Israel charged Eichmann,
I was not aware that Kahan's report was available on the Internet (I knew there was an Israeli government inquiry, but I didn't know Kahan chaired it). Most of the information was what I remembered from news reports. I hope I was not overly biased. I will openly admit I really don't like Sharon, but I'm trying to be as neutral and unbiased as I can. (Look, I even went to the trouble of including a summary of his political career from gleaned the Israeli government; if all I wanted to do was attack him, why should have I bothered?) -- SJK
Okay, I admit I was trying to stir people a little bit with the article on Begin, by calling him a terrorist. If I was biased with my original account of Sabra and Shetila, thats probably because a lot of the sources I use for news are probably biased from your point of view. And why didn't I mention the Nobel prize? because I'd forgotten it, thats why. -- SJK
Ed: "Each state, being sovereign, does whatever it wants" is not correct. State soverignity is subject to international law, most importantly the principle of pacta sunt servanda (i.e. states must abide by treaties they freely enter into) to, and the jus cogens/erga omnes rules of customary international law (i.e. rules like the prohibition of genocide, which no state is permitted to violate.) Since most states have signed lots of treaties, and they are bound by customary international law anyway, their soverignity is limited in quite a few ways. Also, be careful about your use of the word "custom" -- you seem to be using it to imply that its not legally required that they grant diplomatic immunity, its merely a custom -- but customs are legally binding under international law, provided they meet certain conditions (states in following the custom must feel a sense of legal obligation; newly established customs may not apply to persistent objectors to them). -- SJK
Simon,
Article said:
Some may claim that, but no international lawyer would claim that. They might claim it was illegal, but if they did it would be because what Sharon did was not an offense subject to universal jurisdiction, or because of head of government immunity during office, or something like that. Universal jurisdiction for at least some offences is accepted by everybody. I've got no problem with admitting this is a subject of legal dispute, I'm just asking that the dispute be framed correctly. -- SJK
SJK, do you think you could include some of what you have written on this page in the page on international law? I'd do it myself if i weren't certain to bungle it :-) --Anders Törlind
removed Palestinian propaganda
Ariel Sharon has always been an evil, evil man...
He has been known (variously) as "the butcher" in Gaza, Lebanon, and other locals...
Joseph, I appreciate the moderation that you've done, but this is still not NPOV! As the Wikipedia editor, you don't have a narrator. Unless you talk about very, very obvious facts, the statements that you make must be explicitly associated with the side that makes them. I'll post below the way I think the statements should be made:
URI: with all due respect, please, lets try and not mince words here, it is Ariel Sharon's policy. He is the one that will not negotiate under fire, he said so... Furthermore, he has forbidden specific members of the Government from pursuing dialogue with Palestinians (personally a method I feel will result in lowering the violence). He is the Prime Minister now, whether we (Palestinians) like it or not. Feel free to reword this how you see fit as long as the main point remains it is this that:
1) Mr Sharon's policy is one of extreme military responses to any attack, by any Palestinian group. That essentialy means that any extreme person can derail any peace talk. Imagine if that was how it was with extreme Jewsih settler groups doing the same, and the Palestinians refusing to negotiate. At least try to see my point here.
2) The European Union wants to change this policy, and it asks that Mr Sharon and his government stop this policy, as it is unrealistic.
(Sharon is not Israeli government - Sharon himself is a private individual while the government is an official body. Also note that both the government and the majority of the Israeli public support these policies, as recent polls indicate)
Uri, again, I feel that this point above is important, as these policies, started by Barak, continued to an even greater extent by Mr Sharon and his government, only lead to more violence and destruction. I hate it when there is a Palestinian attack on civillians or innocents, I feel that if these extremist groups want to go at it with the Israeli Army, then go one for one against the military only. It pains me, and I am truly sorry for the agony, grief, and loss of life of innocent civillians. Truly, the situation is such that more and more ordinary Palestinians are getting drawn into an ever more destructive spiral of violence.
No change here, settlements like it or not are the main reasons for this problem, every expansion and building of new settlements create more 'Facts on the ground' to quote an already overused term.
(Actually, one of Arafat's advisors claim otherwise, see here)
I know that the link you provided is hardly unbiased, I have never heard of this man, most news stories from that time, indicate otherwise, here is a link:
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/12/08/mideast.03/index.html
here is a quote from that article: ..."The Jerusalem clash was one of the most intense since fighting began on September 28, when Palestinians leaving al-Aqsa after prayers began throwing stones at Israeli security forces. Four Palestinians were killed in the ensuing fighting." ...
( That's a personal opinion, I'd leave it out as well)
If you really insist, altough I liked the paragraph the way it was...
That's a gross generalization, the letter has been signed by 50 soldiers and officers, out of the several hundred thousand reservists.
Sorry Uri, I mean to say that the way it is, my accounts showed over 100 and something have refused ,but perhaps you know better being there in Israel.
Here are my links: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-020202army.story
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/mideast020208_reservists.html
Here is one of the quotes: ... "The petition started with 50 reserve officers and soldiers. Since it appeared in Israeli newspapers two weeks ago, about another 150 have signed it." ...
Please leave this here, or expand on it: This represents a small number compared to the Thousands serving ... (or something like that).
Repeat of your previous points, I'd leave this out
Please address/update these points in the main article (or tell me if I can update it myself). -- Uriyan
Uri, I am not sure what you want to change here, however, my sources indicate this feeling.
Here is the link:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,201552,00.html
Here is the quote: "Sharon's impressive diplomatic achievements haven't erased the basic fact haunting Israelis: His first year in office has failed to produce the security promised in his election campaign. A poll published by the newspaper Maariv a week ago showed that Sharon's domestic approval rating had fallen below 50 percent for the first time since his landslide victory. Clearly, Israel's grinding economic recession and the absence of any signs of progress towards resolving its conflict with the Palestinians are taking its toll on domestic politics."
Uri, I am willing to have you change my comments to an NPOV, I am not sure how to do it, however, please do not change my meaning or content. I have provided comments above, I hope that this clarifies my points... I only want to point out that the awy Mr Sharon wants Peace to be, it will never happen. He may have Mr Bush on side, he may even win over the Israelis in an another election, however, Peace has to be made with us the Palestinians, not Mr Bush, or the Israelis themselves...
Hoping I have not offended, or made unreasonable requests.
Joseph
Hi,
I edited your comments on the main page a bit, most of the changes being confined to adding "Palestinians think that...". The comments that I made in italics are not editorial, but my personal comments as an Israeli. Anyway, if you don't like something (if you think that I left out something important etc.) - feel free to restore it (either from this page or from history).
I deleted the line about four Palestinians being killed, because it happened after Sharon's visit, and during very heavy riots that these Palestinians were taking part in. So if we wanted to present the full picture we'd then have to discuss whether the violence that the protesters applied was extreme (e.g. they burnt a police station about the same time) and branch into a whole new discussion which is not directly related to Ariel Sharon.
Finally, I'd been thinking to write an opposing Israeli opinion about this (and perhaps even add one to Yasser Arafat). Of course, you (or any other Wikipedian) would be able to edit my comments in a similar way. -- Uriyan
Sorry I guess we were editing at the same time, here were my roiginal comments:
No problem Uri,
After your edits I added a title because Commentary did not seem to cover what I was after, mainly to make it relevant to current events. This is the title I chose:
a bit long perhaps, feel free to edit, however the main point should be recent events and the Peace process (what is left of it, the fault of Yasser and his cronies as well as Sharons).
I looked it over, seems better, more balanced, I hope you do as well. I also added some new info. about the newest news that over one thousand have now joined in this protest. I am sure you have heard the news, that they incresed their support for this protest, and pullout of the territories... If not I will provide a link to my news story. I thought the important point was that this will force the Palestinian leadership to re-establish law and order, something that is sorely lacking, or something that they are not able to do.
I hope that the edits are ok.
Joseph
I wonder where you've heard that, since I didn't. Of course several officials claimed that leaving the territories would be optimal, but none that I know of called to do it now, and none called to do it on a personal basis - they were rather calling for a general political solution like Shimon Peres (or unilateral separation). Anyway, they do not belong to the same category as the 50 reservists, since they didn't call for military disobedience, but rather point at a political course that they like more. And also, their number is not bigger than 10 (although they include one retired Head of Shin Bet).
Here is the link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1827000/1827328.stm
Also I made a small mistake, this is following on the heels of the protests, Saturday night. It is now 250 reservists that have signed the petition.
Sorry I will correct it.
Joseph
Well, I looked at the BBC article. It isn't really precise, to say the least. The whole Israeli army has less than 1000 senior officers. I don't think there is any more than 20 of them at the Council, the rest being "regular" officers and soldiers. From what has been reported on the local media, they're talking mostly about a unilateral withdrawal, since they don't give too much weight to PA's commitments. They emphasize the enhancement of Israeli security caused by the introduction of a border fence.
I updated the article to reflect these points. Feel free to change it, if you feel I'd left something important out. -- Uriyan
"The absence of a peace camp in Israel" plays in Sharon's favor. Get real! 400,000 Israelis demonstrated on behalf of a Commission of Inquiry following Sabra and Shatilla. In a country that then had 5 million people, that is close to ten percent of the population that attended the demonstration. Peace Now has been a major player in Israeli politics, while today, Sharon is contending with a large group of army reservists who refuse to serve in the West Bank or Gaza. True, the events of the past year have whittled away at the peace camp, but there is a vibrant peace camp nonetheless, perhaps one of the most vibrant in the entire Middle East. Danny
Once again I removed the following:
See my note above as to why. Actually, it contradicts the article itself, which says that 1,000 reserve officers refuse to serve in the West Bank.
Secondly, I removed:
Of course they do. What is the point of that statement.
Finally, I don't really think that the two sections: "The Israeli Point of View" and "The Palestinian Point of View" have a place in this article. Unless someone can justify them, I will remove them to talk.
Hi, I removed (and modified) several statements on the Israeli and Arab positions. Regarding the former, they were simply not true (no Israeli Jews consider suicide bombings justified). As to the latter, many of them did not bother to remind that this is the Arab opinion (and not concrete fact), while others were simply repeating the points already mentioned (in particular the fact that Arabs dislike Sharon), or not saying anything at all (the opinion of individual, anonymous Israeli analysts is quite meaningless) -- Uriyan
"the opinion of individual, anonymous Israeli analysts is quite meaningless", unless what they say is true, accurate or offers a particular insight. Being individual and anonymous has no effect on the value of their opinions.
Nevertheless, as minister of housing in the 90s, Sharon increased the speed of settlment considerably and he is also against dismantling any settlements at all out of principle. This is widely seen by his opponents as hampering peace efforts.
Reasons for NPOV: The Israeli position is much larger and detailed than the Palestinian position. Furthermore, whilst the Palestinian position includes lots of criticisms and counter-arguments, along the lines of Israelis-would-say-this, the Israeli argument includes no such thing, and reads just as a propaganda diatribe. This is not acceptable in a neutral encyclopedia, which should give equal weight to each argument. Jonesy 19:55, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I am removing the claim "an official Israeli judiciary enquiry found him partly responsible and banned him from ever again acting as Defence Minister." The Kahan Commission did not have the authority to ban him for life, nor did they try to. They didn't even have the authority to sack him from his present position, but only to make recommendations about it. The recommendation they made was that Sharon should "draw the appropriate personal conclusions; i.e., resign, and if necessary, the Prime Minister should consider whether he should exercise his authority ... to remove a minister from office. He refused to resign as Defense Minister but Begin forced him to, while allowing him to stay in the cabinet. After the next election he was appointed Minister of Industry and Trade. -- Zero 10:02, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The Vienna Convention of 1815 is superceded by the
Nuremberg Protocols which hold that being a head of state or head of government does not give one immunity from being charged and convicted with war crimes.
130.15.183.129 00:25, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
--Belgium--
Re Belgium's claims of jurisdiction: Belgium can claim the moon turns blue too, but they have no power to enforce it. Berrik
(and yes, I realize this is probably the wrong place to stand on a soapbox, but it's not like I'm the only person around here who does it
Please do not remove quotes...it's his quotes, no need to remove them.
???????? what do you mean neutral? Is http://www.freeman.org/m_online/dec00/sharon.htm a neutral site?
If you remove the quotes from islamonline, then you should remove that one.
I just saw something that is either wrong English or I don't really understand it, namely - the Israeli precursor to the Israeli Defense Force I know we have an article on the IDF, but were there other precursors to it? Someone mind explaining? Thx - Muhamedmesic 21:36, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Laughable that anyone would think this is unsubstantiated.. [2]
Jayjg's tactic for diluting criticism of Ariel Sharon was to insert a long list of silly names that were subsequently deleted by another editor, deleting all critics' perceptions of Sharon. That's not how the NPOV process is supposed to work. Ariel Sharon is considered a terrorist by many Palestinians and Israelis and others around the world because of his numerous massacres of civilians over the years. He was elected by the facts Israelis so that he would employ an iron-fist against the Intifada that he himself was central in inciting. He was a member of a terrorist organization prior to the formation of Israel. He was Minister of Defense during the invasion of Lebanon and Sabra and Shatila massacres, he was commanding units in Sinai that executed Egyptian POWs, he has authorized the assassinations of numerous Palestinian leaders and militants while blithely slaughtering hundreds of innocent Palestinian men, women and children since becoming PM. That he is known as a mass murdering terrorist thug is an important and widespread POV that should be included in his bio despite the bad faith edits and duplicitous efforts at censorship engaged in by his extremist fans.-- Alberuni 19:56, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Jayjg, I trust you will edit the articles of The Butcher of Kurdistan and The Butcher of Lyons at once, to avoid the perception of double standards. - pir 22:00, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I still don't agree with the "terrorist" name-calling in the opening section. Again, Googling "Bush is a terrorist" and "terrorist Bush" yields over 3,500 hits. Googling "Sharon is a terrorist" and "terrorist Sharon" yields around 1,100 hits. +Bush +terrorist yields 2.1 million hits whereas +Sharon +terrorist yields 350K hits. Now, I know this second set of searches is not particularly good; yet if you look at the links provided, at least on the first few pages, they are highly relevant. While a name like "The Butcher of Beirut" is at least reasonably unique, "terrorist" is just a term thrown around to indicate a political leader you disagree with who has been involved in wars. As for "the left", I'm not aware of the left in Israel calling him "the Butcher of Beirut", which is an English phrase in any event; Israelis speak Hebrew. For it to be a "left" phrase, it must be commonly used by the left, and not just some writer on the left mentioning that Arabs refer to him that way in English. The links I brought made no mention of the left referring to him that way either. Jayjg 02:48, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let's go section by section and NPOV every claim with references and attributions. -- Alberuni 02:22, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You are now claiming that 35,000 Palestinians were killed in Sabra and Shatila by Pahalangists. You need a vacation. -- Alberuni 05:08, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's time to polish Sharon's biography. What a repulsive POV pushing Zionist hack. -- Alberuni 06:20, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Which parts of the article do you want to change, and why? Jayjg 22:53, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why don't the Arabs just accept the fact that everybody knows: that the so-called "palestinian", the Egyptian terrorist and racist massmurderer, Arafat, died of AIDS? The "mysterious" symptoms are rather obvious - and it was a public secret, that he liked little boys...
It is pretty safe to say that the Sabra and Shatila death toll was between 460 to 800, as those numbers were reported by the Lebanese police and Shin Bet, respectively.
Please add:
Anybody remember the "Cola War". The wit was that if Coca Cola didn't have Pepsi as an enemy and as a scapegoat, they'd had to invent it.
The same goes for Israel and the arabs. The Arabs - in a bizarre way - love Israel. They need that country as a scapegoat and to remove focus from their own failed societies.
Let's take one eksample:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre
So? Syrian Arabs kill 30.000 Arabs - who cares?
Lets take another: Syrian secret polices place a bomb in Beirut, killing Gemayel - democratically elected leader of liberated Libanon and scores of other Christians. Figthing naturally erupts and some Christians and terrorists (socalled "palestinians") supporting Syria's illegal occupation get killed when the terrorist retreate to there heavely protected military camps at shatila. Suddenly THAT'S big news!!!
I should add, that I don't like revenge, but I DO understand the Christians - afterall the so-called "palestinians" had a legacy of massacres of scores of thousands of innocent Lebanese civillians. They should have killed all those "palestinian" pigs!!!
And that's the only reason why I blame the statsman Ariel Sharon: he should't have intervened to protect the palestinians. He should just have let the Lebanese kill them all.
Daily Dvar and authour Amos Oz have given unlimited rights for the interview to be published as long as its attributed correctly
After a rant against liberal non Israli Jews Shorn has this to say...
"Leibowitz is right, we are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? Listen, a people that gave itself up to be slaughtered, a people that let soap to be made of its children and lamp shades from the skin of its women is a worse criminal than its murderers. Worse than the Nazis...If your nice civilised parents had come here in time instead of writing books about the love for humanity and singing Hear O Israel on the way to the gas chambers, now don't be shocked, if they instead had killed six million Arabs here or even one million, what would have happened? Sure, two or three nasty pages would have been written in the history books, we would have been called all sorts of names, but we could be here today as a people of 25 million!
"Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care. And I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. Then you can spruce up your Jewish conscience and enter the respectable club of civilised nations, nations that are large and healthy. What you lot don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it. True, it could have been finished in 1948, but you interfered, you stopped it. And all this because of the Jewishness in your souls, because of your Diaspora mentality. For the Jews don't grasp things quickly. If you open your eyes and look around the world you will see that darkness is falling again. And we know what happens to a Jew who stays out in the dark. So I am glad that this small war in Lebanon frightened the Yids. Let them be afraid, let them suffer. They should hurry home before it gets really dark. So I am an anti-Semite ? Fine. So don't quote me, quote Lilienblum instead [an early Russian Zionist - ed.]. There is no need to quote an anti-Semite. Quote Lilienblum, and he is definitely not an anti-Semite, there is even a street in Tel Aviv named after him. (C. quotes from a small notebook that was lying on his table when I arrived:) 'Is all that is happening not a clear sign that our forefathers and ourselves...wanted and still want to be disgraced? That we enjoy living like gypsies.' That's Lilienblum. Not me. Believe me. I went through the Zionist literature, I can prove what I say"
Amos Oz never met nor interviewed Sharon. In fact, the so-called “interview” was a literary device taken from Oz's book “In the Land of Israel.” In the English version, the interviewee's identity is not revealed, and is referred to as Z (Flamingo/Fontana 1983).
Apparently, Palestinian propagandists substituted Sharon's name for Z in the Davar interview. The description of Z does not fit Sharon, and at one point Z refers to Sharon, Begin and General Eitan.
In a telephone conversation with journalist Holger Jensen, who had misattributed these quotes to Sharon, Amos Oz confirmed that he had never met nor interviewed Sharon. [32]
I have done a bit of googling around for his wives maiden names and boy, that is hard. Nothing turn up. I think it is a disservice to refer to them with a single name. What if someone wanted to trace back their family tree. Yeah, they say something to do with Romanian girls, but is there anybody who have more substance. Three names would be unique enough.
I've made some changes and some gramatical fixes just recently. I did Google searches for many checking that there are sources for what is being said, and I don't entirely understand the recent edit war - argueing over whether to have the word "a" before "car bomb" seemed a tad silly. Anyway, from what I can tell, it's looking fairly NPOV at the moment. Are we aiming to have this tag removed soon? Please raise your hand (type a comment) if you think any part of the article is still not NPOV please! -- Rebroad 21:52, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
During this period, Sharon supported the Gush Emunim settlements movement and was viewed as the patron of the messianic settlers movement. He used his position to encourage the establishment of a network of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories to prevent the possibility of the return of these territories to Palestinian Arabs. Sharon doubled the number of Jewish settlements on the West Bank and Gaza Strip during his tenure.
This sentence was changed from:
"According to the Palestinians, Ariel Sharon has followed an aggressive policy of non-negotiation. Palestinians allege that the al-Aqsa Intifada started because of a visit by Sharon and an escort of several hundred policemen to the Haram al-Sharif/ Temple Mount complex, site of the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque. Sharon's visit came after archeologists claimed that extensive building operations at the site were destroying priceless antiquities. While visiting the site, Sharon declared that the complex would remain under perpetual Israeli control. Palestinian commentators accused Sharon of purposely inflaming emotions with the event to provoke a violent response and obstruct success of delicate ongoing peace talks. "
to
"Ariel Sharon has followed an aggressive policy of non-negotiation with Palestinians and use of violence to force Palestinians into submission. Most observers agree that the second Palestinian uprising started because of the provocative visit by Sharon with an escort of several hundred policemen to the Haram al-Sharif/ Temple Mount complex, site of the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque. During the visit, Sharon declared that the complex would remain under Israel's control "forever". Many observers blamed Sharon for purposely inflaming emotions to provoke a violent response and obstruct success of delicate ongoing peace talks."
OK, both versions need qualifying IMO. The first version (that is current at the time of writing) needs to state which Palestinians of note say that "Ariel Sharon has followed an aggressive policy of non-negotiation" and that "allege that the al-Aqsa Intifada started because of a visit by Sharon and an escort of several hundred policemen to the Haram al-Sharif/ Temple Mount complex".
The second version needs to state who the observers are that are in agreement that the "second Palestinian uprising started because of the provocative visit by Sharon with an escort of several hundred policemen to the Haram al-Sharif/ Temple Mount complex"! Not only this, but "Many observers blamed Sharon for purposely inflaming emotions to provoke a violent response and obstruct success of delicate ongoing peace talks." needs to be qualified similarly. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:54, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The following sentence was changed from:
"After being dismissed from the Defense Minister post for indirect responsibility in the Sabra and Shatila massacre"
to
"After being dismissed from the Defense Minister post for his personal responsibility in the Sabra and Shatila massacre"
OK, the quotation that we have in the article is as follows:
for "indirect responsibility" in the massacre, stating that the "The Kahan Commission investigating these massacres recommended in early 1983 the removal of Sharon from his post as Defense Minister of Defense [Sharon] bears personal responsibility".
This was changed to:
The Israeli Kahan Commission investigating these massacres recommended in early 1983 the removal of Sharon from his post as Defense Minister, stating that Sharon bears "personal responsibility" for the masacres.
Which is more correct? If the second is more correct, then the sentence should be "After being dismissed from the Defense Minister post for his personal responsibility in the Sabra and Shatila massacre", however if it not then the sentence should be "After being dismissed from the Defense Minister post for indirect responsibility in the Sabra and Shatila massacre"
Perhaps the source of the original quotations would shed some light on this?
Ta bu shi da yu 02:00, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Kahan commission stated that Israel and Israelis in general had indirect responsibility. Regarding that indirect responsibility, Sharon himself bore personal responsibility. Jayjg 01:55, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"possibly to testify against Sharon" - doesn't the phrase seem speculative and POV? I actually wrote it myself, as an attempt to compromise with HistoryBuffEr, but it still doesn't seem to belong. See this article: [35] Jayjg 02:01, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article mention the Phalange were sent in to clear out PLO fighters? Jayjg 02:07, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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Ariel Sharon, as an acting representative of a foreign government, is protected by international law. Therefore he could not be arrested in Belgium, or any other country that upholds the Vienna Convention of 1815. His visit was canceled as a sign of diplomatic protest, which is certainly in place. Also, Belgium is no "courthouse for the world", since most legal conventions disallow persecution by a country over crimes that happened in a foreign nation (and that did not involve any citizens of that country). Also, is not having a disco bombed with 21 murdered children a bad cause? I delete this. -- Uriyan
The Vienna Convention of 1815 is superceded by the Nuremberg Protocols which hold that being a head of state or head of government does not give one immunity from being charged and convicted with war crimes. 130.15.183.129 00:24, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Ariel Sharon, as an acting representative of a foreign government, is protected by international law." That is a question of some dispute -- Belgium argues that while government representatives can't be arrested for ordinary crimes, they can be arrested for war crimes, genocide, crimes against humanity, etc. The Vienna Convention of 1815? Don't you mean the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which dates from some time in the 60s I think. War crimes are crimes of universal jurisdiction under international law, thus any state in the world has the right to try war crimes cases, not just cases involving its own citizens or territory. (Also, legal jurisdiction is determined by customary international law, not by conventional international law.) Most states don't take advantage of this right they have, but Belgium does. Israel also does, that is how they tried Eichmann (the Holocaust did not occur on Israeli territory, and none of its victims here Israeli citizens at the time it occured, since Israel did not then exist.) And the last sentence is completely true: he cancelled the visit, many people said it was because he feared being arrested, but the official Israeli government reason was the bombing of a disco. Everything in that sentence is true, and I don't see what your problem is with it. -- SJK
Well, Belgium can claim whatever it wants, but it is Belgian law, not international. Also, again, while I am not thoroughly familiar with the current legalities, all the cases of war crimes that I know of were ever put on trial, were put on trial in an international court, not a Belgian court. The only contrary case happened in Belgium several years ago, but again, that's Belgium and its view on the problem.
As to the Eichmann trial, please note the following difference: Sharon's action took place Israel, which is a souverign country recognized by Belgium, and which exists now. Eichmann was an official of Nazi Germany, which was dissolved, and therefore unable to try him (he could be tried in Western Germany, but it was only the heir of Nazi Germany). Sharon could, theoretically, be taken to an Israeli court. I'm sure that much more significant differences exist, but unfortunately I'm not yet familiar enough with the international law to put up a better answer. I meant the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961, which was based on practice that originated in the Vienna Congress of 1815 (I apologize for my ignorance).
In addition to the above: although I hate to go ad hominem, I must say that you eagerness to mention Sabra and Shatila without doing any further research on the problem (like reading Kahan's report, which is freely available on the Internet) is regrettable and indicates that your bias is stronger than your desire to be objective. It is you and your decisions; however wouldn't you feel better if you didn't omit details another side in this conflict might consider important? -- Uriyan
I don't think international law protects anybody. Each state, being sovereign, does whatever it wants. It is customary to grant diplomatic immunity to individuals or classes of individuals.
The question Uriyan and SJK are discussing, needs clarification as to how Belgium would regard Sharon during a visit:
Its more than Belgian law, its what Belgian claims the international law on the matter is (whether or not Belgian is right ultimately depends on future state practice, court decisions, etc.).
As to jurisdiction: there are about five different basises for jurisdiction recognized under international law: territorial jurisdiction (crimes committed on territory of the state), nationality jurisdiction (crime committed by a national of the state), jurisdiction based on the vital interests of the state (forget what this one is called), jurisdiction based on the nationality of the victim (once widely rejected, but increasingly accepted for terrorist offences), and universal jurisdiction (any state in the world can try the crime, no matter where it was committed and by who). Universal jurisdiction however only applies to certain offenses (e.g. piracy, genocide), so the question would be whether or not universal jurisdiction applies to whatever they would might indict Sharon for. And the primary jurisdiction under international criminal law rests with national courts, not international courts; international courts can only exercise criminal jurisdiction over individuals when a state has delegated its own jurisdiction to that court, and an international court can have no more criminal jurisdiction than the states that made the delegation did.
This is all well established customary international law, and is accepted by just about everybody. Just because the law on this matter may only be rarely applied doesn't mean it does not exist. (If you want a nice summary of all this, get a textbook on international law.)
Secondly, the distinction you make between the Eichmann case and what Belgium claims the right to do is irrelevant. The exercise of universal jursidiction under international law is not dependent on whether or not it is possible for the territorial state or the state of nationality to try it. Of course, if the territorial or nationality state (i.e. either Lebanon or Israel) is willing and able to try Sharon, then it has the right to do so instead of Belgium. But if either is unwilling or unable to do so for whatever reason, then (presuming universal jurisdiction applies to what Belgium indicts Sharon for), Belgium has the right to try him. The only possible difference is the question of whether or not what they seek to charge Sharon with is subject to universal jurisdiction. (Genocide, with which Israel charged Eichmann,
I was not aware that Kahan's report was available on the Internet (I knew there was an Israeli government inquiry, but I didn't know Kahan chaired it). Most of the information was what I remembered from news reports. I hope I was not overly biased. I will openly admit I really don't like Sharon, but I'm trying to be as neutral and unbiased as I can. (Look, I even went to the trouble of including a summary of his political career from gleaned the Israeli government; if all I wanted to do was attack him, why should have I bothered?) -- SJK
Okay, I admit I was trying to stir people a little bit with the article on Begin, by calling him a terrorist. If I was biased with my original account of Sabra and Shetila, thats probably because a lot of the sources I use for news are probably biased from your point of view. And why didn't I mention the Nobel prize? because I'd forgotten it, thats why. -- SJK
Ed: "Each state, being sovereign, does whatever it wants" is not correct. State soverignity is subject to international law, most importantly the principle of pacta sunt servanda (i.e. states must abide by treaties they freely enter into) to, and the jus cogens/erga omnes rules of customary international law (i.e. rules like the prohibition of genocide, which no state is permitted to violate.) Since most states have signed lots of treaties, and they are bound by customary international law anyway, their soverignity is limited in quite a few ways. Also, be careful about your use of the word "custom" -- you seem to be using it to imply that its not legally required that they grant diplomatic immunity, its merely a custom -- but customs are legally binding under international law, provided they meet certain conditions (states in following the custom must feel a sense of legal obligation; newly established customs may not apply to persistent objectors to them). -- SJK
Simon,
Article said:
Some may claim that, but no international lawyer would claim that. They might claim it was illegal, but if they did it would be because what Sharon did was not an offense subject to universal jurisdiction, or because of head of government immunity during office, or something like that. Universal jurisdiction for at least some offences is accepted by everybody. I've got no problem with admitting this is a subject of legal dispute, I'm just asking that the dispute be framed correctly. -- SJK
SJK, do you think you could include some of what you have written on this page in the page on international law? I'd do it myself if i weren't certain to bungle it :-) --Anders Törlind
removed Palestinian propaganda
Ariel Sharon has always been an evil, evil man...
He has been known (variously) as "the butcher" in Gaza, Lebanon, and other locals...
Joseph, I appreciate the moderation that you've done, but this is still not NPOV! As the Wikipedia editor, you don't have a narrator. Unless you talk about very, very obvious facts, the statements that you make must be explicitly associated with the side that makes them. I'll post below the way I think the statements should be made:
URI: with all due respect, please, lets try and not mince words here, it is Ariel Sharon's policy. He is the one that will not negotiate under fire, he said so... Furthermore, he has forbidden specific members of the Government from pursuing dialogue with Palestinians (personally a method I feel will result in lowering the violence). He is the Prime Minister now, whether we (Palestinians) like it or not. Feel free to reword this how you see fit as long as the main point remains it is this that:
1) Mr Sharon's policy is one of extreme military responses to any attack, by any Palestinian group. That essentialy means that any extreme person can derail any peace talk. Imagine if that was how it was with extreme Jewsih settler groups doing the same, and the Palestinians refusing to negotiate. At least try to see my point here.
2) The European Union wants to change this policy, and it asks that Mr Sharon and his government stop this policy, as it is unrealistic.
(Sharon is not Israeli government - Sharon himself is a private individual while the government is an official body. Also note that both the government and the majority of the Israeli public support these policies, as recent polls indicate)
Uri, again, I feel that this point above is important, as these policies, started by Barak, continued to an even greater extent by Mr Sharon and his government, only lead to more violence and destruction. I hate it when there is a Palestinian attack on civillians or innocents, I feel that if these extremist groups want to go at it with the Israeli Army, then go one for one against the military only. It pains me, and I am truly sorry for the agony, grief, and loss of life of innocent civillians. Truly, the situation is such that more and more ordinary Palestinians are getting drawn into an ever more destructive spiral of violence.
No change here, settlements like it or not are the main reasons for this problem, every expansion and building of new settlements create more 'Facts on the ground' to quote an already overused term.
(Actually, one of Arafat's advisors claim otherwise, see here)
I know that the link you provided is hardly unbiased, I have never heard of this man, most news stories from that time, indicate otherwise, here is a link:
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/12/08/mideast.03/index.html
here is a quote from that article: ..."The Jerusalem clash was one of the most intense since fighting began on September 28, when Palestinians leaving al-Aqsa after prayers began throwing stones at Israeli security forces. Four Palestinians were killed in the ensuing fighting." ...
( That's a personal opinion, I'd leave it out as well)
If you really insist, altough I liked the paragraph the way it was...
That's a gross generalization, the letter has been signed by 50 soldiers and officers, out of the several hundred thousand reservists.
Sorry Uri, I mean to say that the way it is, my accounts showed over 100 and something have refused ,but perhaps you know better being there in Israel.
Here are my links: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-020202army.story
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/mideast020208_reservists.html
Here is one of the quotes: ... "The petition started with 50 reserve officers and soldiers. Since it appeared in Israeli newspapers two weeks ago, about another 150 have signed it." ...
Please leave this here, or expand on it: This represents a small number compared to the Thousands serving ... (or something like that).
Repeat of your previous points, I'd leave this out
Please address/update these points in the main article (or tell me if I can update it myself). -- Uriyan
Uri, I am not sure what you want to change here, however, my sources indicate this feeling.
Here is the link:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,201552,00.html
Here is the quote: "Sharon's impressive diplomatic achievements haven't erased the basic fact haunting Israelis: His first year in office has failed to produce the security promised in his election campaign. A poll published by the newspaper Maariv a week ago showed that Sharon's domestic approval rating had fallen below 50 percent for the first time since his landslide victory. Clearly, Israel's grinding economic recession and the absence of any signs of progress towards resolving its conflict with the Palestinians are taking its toll on domestic politics."
Uri, I am willing to have you change my comments to an NPOV, I am not sure how to do it, however, please do not change my meaning or content. I have provided comments above, I hope that this clarifies my points... I only want to point out that the awy Mr Sharon wants Peace to be, it will never happen. He may have Mr Bush on side, he may even win over the Israelis in an another election, however, Peace has to be made with us the Palestinians, not Mr Bush, or the Israelis themselves...
Hoping I have not offended, or made unreasonable requests.
Joseph
Hi,
I edited your comments on the main page a bit, most of the changes being confined to adding "Palestinians think that...". The comments that I made in italics are not editorial, but my personal comments as an Israeli. Anyway, if you don't like something (if you think that I left out something important etc.) - feel free to restore it (either from this page or from history).
I deleted the line about four Palestinians being killed, because it happened after Sharon's visit, and during very heavy riots that these Palestinians were taking part in. So if we wanted to present the full picture we'd then have to discuss whether the violence that the protesters applied was extreme (e.g. they burnt a police station about the same time) and branch into a whole new discussion which is not directly related to Ariel Sharon.
Finally, I'd been thinking to write an opposing Israeli opinion about this (and perhaps even add one to Yasser Arafat). Of course, you (or any other Wikipedian) would be able to edit my comments in a similar way. -- Uriyan
Sorry I guess we were editing at the same time, here were my roiginal comments:
No problem Uri,
After your edits I added a title because Commentary did not seem to cover what I was after, mainly to make it relevant to current events. This is the title I chose:
a bit long perhaps, feel free to edit, however the main point should be recent events and the Peace process (what is left of it, the fault of Yasser and his cronies as well as Sharons).
I looked it over, seems better, more balanced, I hope you do as well. I also added some new info. about the newest news that over one thousand have now joined in this protest. I am sure you have heard the news, that they incresed their support for this protest, and pullout of the territories... If not I will provide a link to my news story. I thought the important point was that this will force the Palestinian leadership to re-establish law and order, something that is sorely lacking, or something that they are not able to do.
I hope that the edits are ok.
Joseph
I wonder where you've heard that, since I didn't. Of course several officials claimed that leaving the territories would be optimal, but none that I know of called to do it now, and none called to do it on a personal basis - they were rather calling for a general political solution like Shimon Peres (or unilateral separation). Anyway, they do not belong to the same category as the 50 reservists, since they didn't call for military disobedience, but rather point at a political course that they like more. And also, their number is not bigger than 10 (although they include one retired Head of Shin Bet).
Here is the link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1827000/1827328.stm
Also I made a small mistake, this is following on the heels of the protests, Saturday night. It is now 250 reservists that have signed the petition.
Sorry I will correct it.
Joseph
Well, I looked at the BBC article. It isn't really precise, to say the least. The whole Israeli army has less than 1000 senior officers. I don't think there is any more than 20 of them at the Council, the rest being "regular" officers and soldiers. From what has been reported on the local media, they're talking mostly about a unilateral withdrawal, since they don't give too much weight to PA's commitments. They emphasize the enhancement of Israeli security caused by the introduction of a border fence.
I updated the article to reflect these points. Feel free to change it, if you feel I'd left something important out. -- Uriyan
"The absence of a peace camp in Israel" plays in Sharon's favor. Get real! 400,000 Israelis demonstrated on behalf of a Commission of Inquiry following Sabra and Shatilla. In a country that then had 5 million people, that is close to ten percent of the population that attended the demonstration. Peace Now has been a major player in Israeli politics, while today, Sharon is contending with a large group of army reservists who refuse to serve in the West Bank or Gaza. True, the events of the past year have whittled away at the peace camp, but there is a vibrant peace camp nonetheless, perhaps one of the most vibrant in the entire Middle East. Danny
Once again I removed the following:
See my note above as to why. Actually, it contradicts the article itself, which says that 1,000 reserve officers refuse to serve in the West Bank.
Secondly, I removed:
Of course they do. What is the point of that statement.
Finally, I don't really think that the two sections: "The Israeli Point of View" and "The Palestinian Point of View" have a place in this article. Unless someone can justify them, I will remove them to talk.
Hi, I removed (and modified) several statements on the Israeli and Arab positions. Regarding the former, they were simply not true (no Israeli Jews consider suicide bombings justified). As to the latter, many of them did not bother to remind that this is the Arab opinion (and not concrete fact), while others were simply repeating the points already mentioned (in particular the fact that Arabs dislike Sharon), or not saying anything at all (the opinion of individual, anonymous Israeli analysts is quite meaningless) -- Uriyan
"the opinion of individual, anonymous Israeli analysts is quite meaningless", unless what they say is true, accurate or offers a particular insight. Being individual and anonymous has no effect on the value of their opinions.
Nevertheless, as minister of housing in the 90s, Sharon increased the speed of settlment considerably and he is also against dismantling any settlements at all out of principle. This is widely seen by his opponents as hampering peace efforts.
Reasons for NPOV: The Israeli position is much larger and detailed than the Palestinian position. Furthermore, whilst the Palestinian position includes lots of criticisms and counter-arguments, along the lines of Israelis-would-say-this, the Israeli argument includes no such thing, and reads just as a propaganda diatribe. This is not acceptable in a neutral encyclopedia, which should give equal weight to each argument. Jonesy 19:55, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I am removing the claim "an official Israeli judiciary enquiry found him partly responsible and banned him from ever again acting as Defence Minister." The Kahan Commission did not have the authority to ban him for life, nor did they try to. They didn't even have the authority to sack him from his present position, but only to make recommendations about it. The recommendation they made was that Sharon should "draw the appropriate personal conclusions; i.e., resign, and if necessary, the Prime Minister should consider whether he should exercise his authority ... to remove a minister from office. He refused to resign as Defense Minister but Begin forced him to, while allowing him to stay in the cabinet. After the next election he was appointed Minister of Industry and Trade. -- Zero 10:02, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The Vienna Convention of 1815 is superceded by the
Nuremberg Protocols which hold that being a head of state or head of government does not give one immunity from being charged and convicted with war crimes.
130.15.183.129 00:25, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
--Belgium--
Re Belgium's claims of jurisdiction: Belgium can claim the moon turns blue too, but they have no power to enforce it. Berrik
(and yes, I realize this is probably the wrong place to stand on a soapbox, but it's not like I'm the only person around here who does it
Please do not remove quotes...it's his quotes, no need to remove them.
???????? what do you mean neutral? Is http://www.freeman.org/m_online/dec00/sharon.htm a neutral site?
If you remove the quotes from islamonline, then you should remove that one.
I just saw something that is either wrong English or I don't really understand it, namely - the Israeli precursor to the Israeli Defense Force I know we have an article on the IDF, but were there other precursors to it? Someone mind explaining? Thx - Muhamedmesic 21:36, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Laughable that anyone would think this is unsubstantiated.. [2]
Jayjg's tactic for diluting criticism of Ariel Sharon was to insert a long list of silly names that were subsequently deleted by another editor, deleting all critics' perceptions of Sharon. That's not how the NPOV process is supposed to work. Ariel Sharon is considered a terrorist by many Palestinians and Israelis and others around the world because of his numerous massacres of civilians over the years. He was elected by the facts Israelis so that he would employ an iron-fist against the Intifada that he himself was central in inciting. He was a member of a terrorist organization prior to the formation of Israel. He was Minister of Defense during the invasion of Lebanon and Sabra and Shatila massacres, he was commanding units in Sinai that executed Egyptian POWs, he has authorized the assassinations of numerous Palestinian leaders and militants while blithely slaughtering hundreds of innocent Palestinian men, women and children since becoming PM. That he is known as a mass murdering terrorist thug is an important and widespread POV that should be included in his bio despite the bad faith edits and duplicitous efforts at censorship engaged in by his extremist fans.-- Alberuni 19:56, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Jayjg, I trust you will edit the articles of The Butcher of Kurdistan and The Butcher of Lyons at once, to avoid the perception of double standards. - pir 22:00, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I still don't agree with the "terrorist" name-calling in the opening section. Again, Googling "Bush is a terrorist" and "terrorist Bush" yields over 3,500 hits. Googling "Sharon is a terrorist" and "terrorist Sharon" yields around 1,100 hits. +Bush +terrorist yields 2.1 million hits whereas +Sharon +terrorist yields 350K hits. Now, I know this second set of searches is not particularly good; yet if you look at the links provided, at least on the first few pages, they are highly relevant. While a name like "The Butcher of Beirut" is at least reasonably unique, "terrorist" is just a term thrown around to indicate a political leader you disagree with who has been involved in wars. As for "the left", I'm not aware of the left in Israel calling him "the Butcher of Beirut", which is an English phrase in any event; Israelis speak Hebrew. For it to be a "left" phrase, it must be commonly used by the left, and not just some writer on the left mentioning that Arabs refer to him that way in English. The links I brought made no mention of the left referring to him that way either. Jayjg 02:48, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let's go section by section and NPOV every claim with references and attributions. -- Alberuni 02:22, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You are now claiming that 35,000 Palestinians were killed in Sabra and Shatila by Pahalangists. You need a vacation. -- Alberuni 05:08, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's time to polish Sharon's biography. What a repulsive POV pushing Zionist hack. -- Alberuni 06:20, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Which parts of the article do you want to change, and why? Jayjg 22:53, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why don't the Arabs just accept the fact that everybody knows: that the so-called "palestinian", the Egyptian terrorist and racist massmurderer, Arafat, died of AIDS? The "mysterious" symptoms are rather obvious - and it was a public secret, that he liked little boys...
It is pretty safe to say that the Sabra and Shatila death toll was between 460 to 800, as those numbers were reported by the Lebanese police and Shin Bet, respectively.
Please add:
Anybody remember the "Cola War". The wit was that if Coca Cola didn't have Pepsi as an enemy and as a scapegoat, they'd had to invent it.
The same goes for Israel and the arabs. The Arabs - in a bizarre way - love Israel. They need that country as a scapegoat and to remove focus from their own failed societies.
Let's take one eksample:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre
So? Syrian Arabs kill 30.000 Arabs - who cares?
Lets take another: Syrian secret polices place a bomb in Beirut, killing Gemayel - democratically elected leader of liberated Libanon and scores of other Christians. Figthing naturally erupts and some Christians and terrorists (socalled "palestinians") supporting Syria's illegal occupation get killed when the terrorist retreate to there heavely protected military camps at shatila. Suddenly THAT'S big news!!!
I should add, that I don't like revenge, but I DO understand the Christians - afterall the so-called "palestinians" had a legacy of massacres of scores of thousands of innocent Lebanese civillians. They should have killed all those "palestinian" pigs!!!
And that's the only reason why I blame the statsman Ariel Sharon: he should't have intervened to protect the palestinians. He should just have let the Lebanese kill them all.
Daily Dvar and authour Amos Oz have given unlimited rights for the interview to be published as long as its attributed correctly
After a rant against liberal non Israli Jews Shorn has this to say...
"Leibowitz is right, we are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? Listen, a people that gave itself up to be slaughtered, a people that let soap to be made of its children and lamp shades from the skin of its women is a worse criminal than its murderers. Worse than the Nazis...If your nice civilised parents had come here in time instead of writing books about the love for humanity and singing Hear O Israel on the way to the gas chambers, now don't be shocked, if they instead had killed six million Arabs here or even one million, what would have happened? Sure, two or three nasty pages would have been written in the history books, we would have been called all sorts of names, but we could be here today as a people of 25 million!
"Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care. And I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. Then you can spruce up your Jewish conscience and enter the respectable club of civilised nations, nations that are large and healthy. What you lot don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it. True, it could have been finished in 1948, but you interfered, you stopped it. And all this because of the Jewishness in your souls, because of your Diaspora mentality. For the Jews don't grasp things quickly. If you open your eyes and look around the world you will see that darkness is falling again. And we know what happens to a Jew who stays out in the dark. So I am glad that this small war in Lebanon frightened the Yids. Let them be afraid, let them suffer. They should hurry home before it gets really dark. So I am an anti-Semite ? Fine. So don't quote me, quote Lilienblum instead [an early Russian Zionist - ed.]. There is no need to quote an anti-Semite. Quote Lilienblum, and he is definitely not an anti-Semite, there is even a street in Tel Aviv named after him. (C. quotes from a small notebook that was lying on his table when I arrived:) 'Is all that is happening not a clear sign that our forefathers and ourselves...wanted and still want to be disgraced? That we enjoy living like gypsies.' That's Lilienblum. Not me. Believe me. I went through the Zionist literature, I can prove what I say"
Amos Oz never met nor interviewed Sharon. In fact, the so-called “interview” was a literary device taken from Oz's book “In the Land of Israel.” In the English version, the interviewee's identity is not revealed, and is referred to as Z (Flamingo/Fontana 1983).
Apparently, Palestinian propagandists substituted Sharon's name for Z in the Davar interview. The description of Z does not fit Sharon, and at one point Z refers to Sharon, Begin and General Eitan.
In a telephone conversation with journalist Holger Jensen, who had misattributed these quotes to Sharon, Amos Oz confirmed that he had never met nor interviewed Sharon. [32]
I have done a bit of googling around for his wives maiden names and boy, that is hard. Nothing turn up. I think it is a disservice to refer to them with a single name. What if someone wanted to trace back their family tree. Yeah, they say something to do with Romanian girls, but is there anybody who have more substance. Three names would be unique enough.
I've made some changes and some gramatical fixes just recently. I did Google searches for many checking that there are sources for what is being said, and I don't entirely understand the recent edit war - argueing over whether to have the word "a" before "car bomb" seemed a tad silly. Anyway, from what I can tell, it's looking fairly NPOV at the moment. Are we aiming to have this tag removed soon? Please raise your hand (type a comment) if you think any part of the article is still not NPOV please! -- Rebroad 21:52, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
During this period, Sharon supported the Gush Emunim settlements movement and was viewed as the patron of the messianic settlers movement. He used his position to encourage the establishment of a network of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories to prevent the possibility of the return of these territories to Palestinian Arabs. Sharon doubled the number of Jewish settlements on the West Bank and Gaza Strip during his tenure.
This sentence was changed from:
"According to the Palestinians, Ariel Sharon has followed an aggressive policy of non-negotiation. Palestinians allege that the al-Aqsa Intifada started because of a visit by Sharon and an escort of several hundred policemen to the Haram al-Sharif/ Temple Mount complex, site of the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque. Sharon's visit came after archeologists claimed that extensive building operations at the site were destroying priceless antiquities. While visiting the site, Sharon declared that the complex would remain under perpetual Israeli control. Palestinian commentators accused Sharon of purposely inflaming emotions with the event to provoke a violent response and obstruct success of delicate ongoing peace talks. "
to
"Ariel Sharon has followed an aggressive policy of non-negotiation with Palestinians and use of violence to force Palestinians into submission. Most observers agree that the second Palestinian uprising started because of the provocative visit by Sharon with an escort of several hundred policemen to the Haram al-Sharif/ Temple Mount complex, site of the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque. During the visit, Sharon declared that the complex would remain under Israel's control "forever". Many observers blamed Sharon for purposely inflaming emotions to provoke a violent response and obstruct success of delicate ongoing peace talks."
OK, both versions need qualifying IMO. The first version (that is current at the time of writing) needs to state which Palestinians of note say that "Ariel Sharon has followed an aggressive policy of non-negotiation" and that "allege that the al-Aqsa Intifada started because of a visit by Sharon and an escort of several hundred policemen to the Haram al-Sharif/ Temple Mount complex".
The second version needs to state who the observers are that are in agreement that the "second Palestinian uprising started because of the provocative visit by Sharon with an escort of several hundred policemen to the Haram al-Sharif/ Temple Mount complex"! Not only this, but "Many observers blamed Sharon for purposely inflaming emotions to provoke a violent response and obstruct success of delicate ongoing peace talks." needs to be qualified similarly. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:54, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The following sentence was changed from:
"After being dismissed from the Defense Minister post for indirect responsibility in the Sabra and Shatila massacre"
to
"After being dismissed from the Defense Minister post for his personal responsibility in the Sabra and Shatila massacre"
OK, the quotation that we have in the article is as follows:
for "indirect responsibility" in the massacre, stating that the "The Kahan Commission investigating these massacres recommended in early 1983 the removal of Sharon from his post as Defense Minister of Defense [Sharon] bears personal responsibility".
This was changed to:
The Israeli Kahan Commission investigating these massacres recommended in early 1983 the removal of Sharon from his post as Defense Minister, stating that Sharon bears "personal responsibility" for the masacres.
Which is more correct? If the second is more correct, then the sentence should be "After being dismissed from the Defense Minister post for his personal responsibility in the Sabra and Shatila massacre", however if it not then the sentence should be "After being dismissed from the Defense Minister post for indirect responsibility in the Sabra and Shatila massacre"
Perhaps the source of the original quotations would shed some light on this?
Ta bu shi da yu 02:00, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Kahan commission stated that Israel and Israelis in general had indirect responsibility. Regarding that indirect responsibility, Sharon himself bore personal responsibility. Jayjg 01:55, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"possibly to testify against Sharon" - doesn't the phrase seem speculative and POV? I actually wrote it myself, as an attempt to compromise with HistoryBuffEr, but it still doesn't seem to belong. See this article: [35] Jayjg 02:01, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article mention the Phalange were sent in to clear out PLO fighters? Jayjg 02:07, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)