![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I was wondering if situation of the dog in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Silver Blaze would be a good example of argument from silence in fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.234.222.130 ( talk) 10:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the old claim that the Virgin Birth being an argument from silence was put in back. Sigh, people it is not an argument from silence but rather a syllogistic logic:
This logical conclusion (as well as a at least one challenges to the logical steps) can be found at Jesus Police, Telling the Lutheran Story--Do Lutherans believe Jesus was born of a virgin?, The Virgin Birth - Separating Myth from Fact!, The Mystery of Paul's Ignorance by Louis W. Cable, and New Testament Contradictions (1995) by Paul Carlson to name a few locations. In fact, Paul Carlson expressly states "The apostle Paul says that Jesus "was born of the seed of David" (Romans 1:3). Here the word "seed" is literally in the Greek "sperma." This same Greek word is translated in other verses as "descendant(s)" or "offspring." The point is that the Messiah had to be a physical descendant of King David through the male line." This is not novel research, people so stop claiming it is and stop claiming something that can be demonstrated as to be untrue. Herod's slaughter of the Innocents is a far better example of an argument from silence.-- 216.31.15.35 ( talk) 00:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Side note it is not disruptive to post referenced facts. It IS disruptive to post things have have been show through references and quotes to be false. This is NOT the place for agendas. Unless people can shows that current skeptics actually use the argument from silence for the virgin it has no place in this article (claims by apologetics is NOT proof).-- 216.234.222.130 ( talk) 07:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
If the a.f.s. is used as a proof of certain ignorance, it's fallacious. If it's used a proof of possible ignorance, it isn't. You can't dismiss it out of hand as fallacious, as I've tried to explain in the article. Jacquerie27 22:04 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
I agree that the article flirts with tedium,
especially when it makes the sophistic point that the argument from silence "proves" that Paul "may not have known" about the Virgin Birth. Geez -- to prove that something may have been the case doesn't sound like much of a proof!
I do however take strong issue with the claim that the argument has "famously" been used against Paul. The use of the passive voice and the word "famously" sound like the kind of rhetorical dodges that people use to excuse ignorance. Tell us which famous scholars have famously used this argument! If you do not, I will interpret your silence to mean you do not klnow, and I will delete the paragraph! Slrubenstein
By the way, Mkmcconn, I would not at all take Paul's use of "son og God" to refer to the Virgin Birth. In the Hebrew Bible, "son of God" is used to refer to Kings of Israel (who most definitely had biological genitors), see Psalm 2:7 and 89: 26-27. The Apocryphal book Ecclesiasticus uses the phrase to refer to "just" or "righteous" men, which echoes Psalm 17. I grant that the phrase has other meanings (e.g. angelic beings); other sources use the phrase as synonymous with "Children of Israel," so it had an ethnic connotation as well as a moral connotation. My point is that it is an idiomatic phrase that was not used in a way consistent with its literal sense, and that it is pretty likely that Paul and other early Christians "may have" used it just like other people at the time. Slrubenstein
Sorry, Mkmcconn -- although I do appreciate the effort, the above links do not cut it. Let me lay my cards on the table: I do not believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, and I do not believe he was the messiah. My people have been rejecting these claims for 2,000 years, so you will understand why we are a little non-plussed when "skeptics" get passionate about disproving something we never believed. Slrubenstein
Be that as it may, I want to be crystal clear: my point has nothing to do with skeptics versus Christians, or with the question of whether or not Jesus was "really" born of a virgin. My only concern is what makes for a good encyclopedia article -- obviously the main pont of an encyclopedia is to be informative, and I think that all of us here pay at least lip-service to NPOV and accuracy as crucial to this objective. In this article, I have problems with the vague claim about "the famous" use of the argument of silence concerning the Virgin Birth. I am not questioning whether it is a good argument or a bad argument. I am questioning who has made this argument and how famous it is. Slrubenstein
In general, I am dubious about relying on other websites to answer such questions -- that seems to me to be a rather weak form of research that undermines the credibility of our project. After all, we are a web-based encyclopedia. If we rely on other web-based encyclopedias or other web-based material for information, what real value are we adding to the web? How do we evaluate the information on other websites? I checked out the four websites, and did see that a couple of them invoked the argument of silence. But I do not know who made these websites and they do not seem to be original or authoritative; moreover, they did not provide any evidence as to who first employed this argument, or what its status is among Bible critics, theologians, and historians. You see, there really is a real world outside of the web and websites. There really are theologians and Bible critics who teach courses and write books and articles about these issues. Slrubenstein
I think this article needs to report on what they are doing, and provide an account of debates over the virgin birth (and the argument of silence) in the context of these real debates amoung real people. This would take "real research" -- reading books, searching journals, etc. But the result -- a paragraph that said "The argument from silence was first raised by A in (year). Today scholars are divided into two camps: one (including B, C, and D) accept this argument for the following reasons... The other (including E, F, and G) reject the argument for the following reasons." THIS would make for an informative encyclopedia entry, rather than BS. Slrubenstein
Chris, I don't doubt the truth of your addition of "Legal" issues, but the credibility is lacking without some reference. Can you trace down som examples of which legal systems or legal decisions limit the use of the argument of silence, so that reporting it here doesn't sound so much like hearsay? Mkmcconn 17:35 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
The article's use of the words "legitimate" and "reasonably" are somewhat POVs. While personally I mildly agree with them, I'll remove these adjectives for now. Shawnc 22:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
This article is literally comprised ENTIRELY of original research, without which it would just be a dicdef.-- Dmz5 *Edits* *Talk* 08:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
As someone who is familiar with the Christian tradition and, to a lesser extent, with the Jewish tradition, I find these examples confusing. I am merely noting that these examples are somewhat esoteric, and if I find the time I will try to find more generally understandable references to add to (not replace) these examples. -- Ante lan talk 00:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
My Latin isnt great, but isnt ad-to (i.e. ah hominem) should the fallacy not be argumentum ex silentio.I.e. Deus ex machina. 86.156.52.67 ( talk) 15:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
It would seem that historians, etymologists, and paleontologists consistently use a form of argument from silence when reasoning about when in the past a particular new development occurred.
For instance, imagine that we are historians in the year 3000 trying to establish the date that Wikipedia was created, given only fragmentary writings of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. If no writings prior to 2001 refer to Wikipedia but many writings after 2001 refer to Wikipedia, the silence of earlier writings taken together with the volume of later ones would tend to indicate that Wikipedia was created around that time.
Use of the fossil record by paleontologists and evolutionary biologists, and of the written record of word usage by etymologists and lexicographers, is similar: when an entity is not attested ("silence") prior to a particular period, but widely attested after that period, we take this as evidence that it developed in that period. -- FOo ( talk) 04:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I have posted an RfC at policy discussion section/query regarding Argumentum ex silentio over on WP:NPOV talk. I am mentioning it here because certain aspects of the argument may interest the editors here ( 20040302 ( talk) 14:15, 3 March 2010 (UTC))
I find it quite strange for an argument to be made that the authors of the Yerushlami did not know of the Bavli. I find it strange because the former was written before the latter; how could they have a copy of something not written? And as far as the other way in concerend, shouldn't it include a study of whether other writings are mentioned? How often does the Talmud quote other books (as opposed to people) by name, except when discussing their authorship? Not very often, I believe.
Yes, I know that the quote is within the rules. But shouldn't an example make sense? Mzk1 ( talk) 11:57, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
The German Legal System does in fact not make use of juries at all. Judgements, be it in criminal, civil or public cases are reached by judges or the occasional lay magistrates ("Schöffen" would be the German expression). I think the "for example" part in brackets is misleading and should be deleted. Schnief ( talk) 22:21, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
The argument from silence is not an argument based on an absence of evidence. It is based on an absence of commentary--thus, silence. Obviously, it is valid not to believe in unicorns, and the reason is an absence of evidence. That's not an argument from silence.
I added a source from the history dept. at the U. Mass, replacing a dictionary of foreign terms. A university history department is a better source than a dictionary. History2007, who added the dictionary without quoting it, reverted that.
The source Errietta Bissa is a text on trade in ancient Greece. It is not a reliable source for the philosophical validity of a type of argument. I also see no evidence that the source supports the claim. Again, this was added by History2007.
The text from Yifa may be relevant, but it is impossible to say because, again, History2007 refuses to meet the burden of proof of showing that the citation is valid. He has a tendency to cite books he hasn't read. Humanpublic ( talk) 23:18, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Please don't pile on cherry-picked criticisms, to the point of violating undue weight. Thank you. Humanpublic ( talk) 17:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
For the fourth time, my objection is not based on WP:RS. It is based on undue weight. Humanpublic ( talk) 13:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I will note that I left a message for user:Minorview who also reverted without substantiating his action with sources. Minorview either needs to provide sources, or his edit which removed WP:RS sources will have to be viewed as disruptive, and reverted. History2007 ( talk) 16:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
By the way, in case you may be thinking of WP:Burden in your statement, note that it states:
Note that it talks about reliability of sources in the context of verifiability conditions, and is part of the WP:V page, mentioned above. It states that the burden "is satisfied by providing a reliable source", and sources here are fully acknowledged to be reliable. That was why I told you to read WP:V carefully. This issue is over really. History2007 ( talk) 19:45, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Minorview, did you even read the content you just removed? Did you even notice that the material you just removed included Lange's "3 stage framework for the characterization of arguments from silence" which does not even take sides, but is the classic presentation in the field? Did you notice that I specifically added the item you had asked about, namely that in the few cases of formal analysis these arguments have been considered fallacies? That is the overview of the situation. Do you read before delete? Or do you just hit the revert button by invoking Wikipedia:I just don't like it?
And again, you have zero sources of your own. Zero. You are again long on reverts, short on sources. You have zero sources. Zero. This is WP:Disruptive editing by you.
You have again removed fully sourced WP:RS material that describes the key structure for these arguments. You have removed the key scholarly discussion. What do you want? A medal? History2007 ( talk) 21:35, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Nice job of edit-warring, as you complain about edit-warring. The objection is not based on sourcing. It is based on NPOV. Between Humanpublic and myself, this has been pointed out to you 6 times. You are stacking the article with criticism of the concept. You are changing the conensus version. It is your job to show that your edits improve the article. Show why stacking the article doesn't violate NPOV. Minorview ( talk) 23:15, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Minorview and HP have both raised concerns over the NPOV of this article. This is already enough to add a POV-tag, as it is clear that the neutrality of the article is disputed. I would tend to agree with them to a certain point. There is an unusually large number of sources that are Judeo-Christian and concern religion, and most experts mentioned in the article favor a certain POV. I don't agree with Minorview and HP that the best option is to delete those views (they are well sourced) but I do believe that for the article to be NPOV, we need a better balance between different views. Unless, of course, there is a source that would lend support to the current imbalance as being representative of the academic community. Jeppiz ( talk) 00:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
I might be wrong as I haven't had time to look into all sources in detail. I don't think Judeo-Christian sources is a problem, but I do find it a bit problematic that almost all people cited in the article are in favor of it, very few opposed. As I already said, if there is a good neutral source saying that most academics do support it, then it's another story. This is in no way a criticism of your efforts to find several good sources and including them. That is why I reverted the deletion of your additions and also criticized it. In my view, you've done a good and thorough job. Jeppiz ( talk) 00:23, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
You are absolutely incorrect, for I used Duncan per WP:RS/AC where he "surveys the field", not as his own opinion. You have caught nothing. Zero. Zero. Duncan states exactly that, then has a long discussion on Holmes and Paul of Tarsus. Your statement is totally incorrect. And I have of course, of course read the sources. Here is what Duncan concludes himself, as his on opinion:
The next sentence where he states that arguments from silence are not mentioned in Aristotle's Sophistical Refutations or Hamblin's book Fallacies is already included in the article (the section on structure) - it was there before you typed this. What he says in the footnote is that interpreting the "silence of by Aristotle and Hamblin" would be an arg from silence itself. So what Duncan holds himself is that AFS are a "dialogical topos" to be evaluated based on the assignment of authority to the arguer. That is all. His overview of the field is represented as is, and the next item is already in the body of the article. History2007 ( talk) 00:38, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I think in view of the discussions, I should just go ahead and cite policies and guidelines. In Wikipedia articles, weight is assigned to a specific scholarly view as the "majority view" and "minority view" by using the WP:Due policy. This was summarized by Jimmy Wales as follows:
The WP:Due policy thus states:
So to determine the "majority view", we "consider prevalence in reliable sources" and not "prevalence among Wikipedia editors". So it does not matter if HumanPublic, Minorview or 12 other people Wiki-editors assume that scholarly opinion is divided 50/50 on this issue and they need equal weight. That matters not. The determination is made via "prevalence in reliable sources". Is there such a prevalence - I hold that there is not, and I have provided sources in the article to that effect. Am I right? Try to prove I am not by showing prevalence in reliable sources for a 50/50 split, or a source that says "most scholars hold that arguments from silence include no hazards". Just show me source, not source free statements on talk pages. Have I "cherry picked" sources? If so, show it not just hypothesize it, imagine it and then state it; do not just state it without a basis in WP:RS prevalence sourcing.
Now, do we need a source that says "most scholars hold that arguments from silence involve hazards"? Only if we are going to say "most scholars hold that arguments from silence involve hazards". That is where the WP:RS/AC guideline comes in. That is not part of the WP:Due policy, but part of the "Identifying reliable sources" guideline. It states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view."
So here is how it works:
Now, is there a 50/50 prevalence in reliable sources regarding the hazards of arguments from silence? I am categorically stating that not to be the case, and that the prevalence in reliable sources is that they involve hazards, risks and dangers. And I can even provide further references that indicate the prevalence towards the existence of hazards. Note that per WP:Due I do not need a statement that states the prevalence; but we need to make an assessment of the prevalence by providing reliable sources on either side of the issue. Are there many more sources on the other side of the issue? I hold that there are not. Let me say that again: I hold that there are not. If there are, let us see them. Let us see the sources. In Wikipedia, sources rule. This is a straightforward application of policy to determine weight via the determination of the majority and minority views. Policy is clear on this. History2007 ( talk) 10:29, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Just a note here that user:Humanpublic was topic banned and then indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia. History2007 ( talk) 21:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
I also added a section on author's interest now, and included Barnes' analysis. With all these other examples, I can not see why a single reference to Christianity can not appear in the article. There are plenty of other examples anyway. And I do not see any reason for the POV tag, now that there are diverse examples. History2007 ( talk) 04:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I was wondering if situation of the dog in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Silver Blaze would be a good example of argument from silence in fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.234.222.130 ( talk) 10:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the old claim that the Virgin Birth being an argument from silence was put in back. Sigh, people it is not an argument from silence but rather a syllogistic logic:
This logical conclusion (as well as a at least one challenges to the logical steps) can be found at Jesus Police, Telling the Lutheran Story--Do Lutherans believe Jesus was born of a virgin?, The Virgin Birth - Separating Myth from Fact!, The Mystery of Paul's Ignorance by Louis W. Cable, and New Testament Contradictions (1995) by Paul Carlson to name a few locations. In fact, Paul Carlson expressly states "The apostle Paul says that Jesus "was born of the seed of David" (Romans 1:3). Here the word "seed" is literally in the Greek "sperma." This same Greek word is translated in other verses as "descendant(s)" or "offspring." The point is that the Messiah had to be a physical descendant of King David through the male line." This is not novel research, people so stop claiming it is and stop claiming something that can be demonstrated as to be untrue. Herod's slaughter of the Innocents is a far better example of an argument from silence.-- 216.31.15.35 ( talk) 00:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Side note it is not disruptive to post referenced facts. It IS disruptive to post things have have been show through references and quotes to be false. This is NOT the place for agendas. Unless people can shows that current skeptics actually use the argument from silence for the virgin it has no place in this article (claims by apologetics is NOT proof).-- 216.234.222.130 ( talk) 07:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
If the a.f.s. is used as a proof of certain ignorance, it's fallacious. If it's used a proof of possible ignorance, it isn't. You can't dismiss it out of hand as fallacious, as I've tried to explain in the article. Jacquerie27 22:04 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
I agree that the article flirts with tedium,
especially when it makes the sophistic point that the argument from silence "proves" that Paul "may not have known" about the Virgin Birth. Geez -- to prove that something may have been the case doesn't sound like much of a proof!
I do however take strong issue with the claim that the argument has "famously" been used against Paul. The use of the passive voice and the word "famously" sound like the kind of rhetorical dodges that people use to excuse ignorance. Tell us which famous scholars have famously used this argument! If you do not, I will interpret your silence to mean you do not klnow, and I will delete the paragraph! Slrubenstein
By the way, Mkmcconn, I would not at all take Paul's use of "son og God" to refer to the Virgin Birth. In the Hebrew Bible, "son of God" is used to refer to Kings of Israel (who most definitely had biological genitors), see Psalm 2:7 and 89: 26-27. The Apocryphal book Ecclesiasticus uses the phrase to refer to "just" or "righteous" men, which echoes Psalm 17. I grant that the phrase has other meanings (e.g. angelic beings); other sources use the phrase as synonymous with "Children of Israel," so it had an ethnic connotation as well as a moral connotation. My point is that it is an idiomatic phrase that was not used in a way consistent with its literal sense, and that it is pretty likely that Paul and other early Christians "may have" used it just like other people at the time. Slrubenstein
Sorry, Mkmcconn -- although I do appreciate the effort, the above links do not cut it. Let me lay my cards on the table: I do not believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, and I do not believe he was the messiah. My people have been rejecting these claims for 2,000 years, so you will understand why we are a little non-plussed when "skeptics" get passionate about disproving something we never believed. Slrubenstein
Be that as it may, I want to be crystal clear: my point has nothing to do with skeptics versus Christians, or with the question of whether or not Jesus was "really" born of a virgin. My only concern is what makes for a good encyclopedia article -- obviously the main pont of an encyclopedia is to be informative, and I think that all of us here pay at least lip-service to NPOV and accuracy as crucial to this objective. In this article, I have problems with the vague claim about "the famous" use of the argument of silence concerning the Virgin Birth. I am not questioning whether it is a good argument or a bad argument. I am questioning who has made this argument and how famous it is. Slrubenstein
In general, I am dubious about relying on other websites to answer such questions -- that seems to me to be a rather weak form of research that undermines the credibility of our project. After all, we are a web-based encyclopedia. If we rely on other web-based encyclopedias or other web-based material for information, what real value are we adding to the web? How do we evaluate the information on other websites? I checked out the four websites, and did see that a couple of them invoked the argument of silence. But I do not know who made these websites and they do not seem to be original or authoritative; moreover, they did not provide any evidence as to who first employed this argument, or what its status is among Bible critics, theologians, and historians. You see, there really is a real world outside of the web and websites. There really are theologians and Bible critics who teach courses and write books and articles about these issues. Slrubenstein
I think this article needs to report on what they are doing, and provide an account of debates over the virgin birth (and the argument of silence) in the context of these real debates amoung real people. This would take "real research" -- reading books, searching journals, etc. But the result -- a paragraph that said "The argument from silence was first raised by A in (year). Today scholars are divided into two camps: one (including B, C, and D) accept this argument for the following reasons... The other (including E, F, and G) reject the argument for the following reasons." THIS would make for an informative encyclopedia entry, rather than BS. Slrubenstein
Chris, I don't doubt the truth of your addition of "Legal" issues, but the credibility is lacking without some reference. Can you trace down som examples of which legal systems or legal decisions limit the use of the argument of silence, so that reporting it here doesn't sound so much like hearsay? Mkmcconn 17:35 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
The article's use of the words "legitimate" and "reasonably" are somewhat POVs. While personally I mildly agree with them, I'll remove these adjectives for now. Shawnc 22:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
This article is literally comprised ENTIRELY of original research, without which it would just be a dicdef.-- Dmz5 *Edits* *Talk* 08:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
As someone who is familiar with the Christian tradition and, to a lesser extent, with the Jewish tradition, I find these examples confusing. I am merely noting that these examples are somewhat esoteric, and if I find the time I will try to find more generally understandable references to add to (not replace) these examples. -- Ante lan talk 00:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
My Latin isnt great, but isnt ad-to (i.e. ah hominem) should the fallacy not be argumentum ex silentio.I.e. Deus ex machina. 86.156.52.67 ( talk) 15:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
It would seem that historians, etymologists, and paleontologists consistently use a form of argument from silence when reasoning about when in the past a particular new development occurred.
For instance, imagine that we are historians in the year 3000 trying to establish the date that Wikipedia was created, given only fragmentary writings of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. If no writings prior to 2001 refer to Wikipedia but many writings after 2001 refer to Wikipedia, the silence of earlier writings taken together with the volume of later ones would tend to indicate that Wikipedia was created around that time.
Use of the fossil record by paleontologists and evolutionary biologists, and of the written record of word usage by etymologists and lexicographers, is similar: when an entity is not attested ("silence") prior to a particular period, but widely attested after that period, we take this as evidence that it developed in that period. -- FOo ( talk) 04:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I have posted an RfC at policy discussion section/query regarding Argumentum ex silentio over on WP:NPOV talk. I am mentioning it here because certain aspects of the argument may interest the editors here ( 20040302 ( talk) 14:15, 3 March 2010 (UTC))
I find it quite strange for an argument to be made that the authors of the Yerushlami did not know of the Bavli. I find it strange because the former was written before the latter; how could they have a copy of something not written? And as far as the other way in concerend, shouldn't it include a study of whether other writings are mentioned? How often does the Talmud quote other books (as opposed to people) by name, except when discussing their authorship? Not very often, I believe.
Yes, I know that the quote is within the rules. But shouldn't an example make sense? Mzk1 ( talk) 11:57, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
The German Legal System does in fact not make use of juries at all. Judgements, be it in criminal, civil or public cases are reached by judges or the occasional lay magistrates ("Schöffen" would be the German expression). I think the "for example" part in brackets is misleading and should be deleted. Schnief ( talk) 22:21, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
The argument from silence is not an argument based on an absence of evidence. It is based on an absence of commentary--thus, silence. Obviously, it is valid not to believe in unicorns, and the reason is an absence of evidence. That's not an argument from silence.
I added a source from the history dept. at the U. Mass, replacing a dictionary of foreign terms. A university history department is a better source than a dictionary. History2007, who added the dictionary without quoting it, reverted that.
The source Errietta Bissa is a text on trade in ancient Greece. It is not a reliable source for the philosophical validity of a type of argument. I also see no evidence that the source supports the claim. Again, this was added by History2007.
The text from Yifa may be relevant, but it is impossible to say because, again, History2007 refuses to meet the burden of proof of showing that the citation is valid. He has a tendency to cite books he hasn't read. Humanpublic ( talk) 23:18, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Please don't pile on cherry-picked criticisms, to the point of violating undue weight. Thank you. Humanpublic ( talk) 17:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
For the fourth time, my objection is not based on WP:RS. It is based on undue weight. Humanpublic ( talk) 13:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I will note that I left a message for user:Minorview who also reverted without substantiating his action with sources. Minorview either needs to provide sources, or his edit which removed WP:RS sources will have to be viewed as disruptive, and reverted. History2007 ( talk) 16:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
By the way, in case you may be thinking of WP:Burden in your statement, note that it states:
Note that it talks about reliability of sources in the context of verifiability conditions, and is part of the WP:V page, mentioned above. It states that the burden "is satisfied by providing a reliable source", and sources here are fully acknowledged to be reliable. That was why I told you to read WP:V carefully. This issue is over really. History2007 ( talk) 19:45, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Minorview, did you even read the content you just removed? Did you even notice that the material you just removed included Lange's "3 stage framework for the characterization of arguments from silence" which does not even take sides, but is the classic presentation in the field? Did you notice that I specifically added the item you had asked about, namely that in the few cases of formal analysis these arguments have been considered fallacies? That is the overview of the situation. Do you read before delete? Or do you just hit the revert button by invoking Wikipedia:I just don't like it?
And again, you have zero sources of your own. Zero. You are again long on reverts, short on sources. You have zero sources. Zero. This is WP:Disruptive editing by you.
You have again removed fully sourced WP:RS material that describes the key structure for these arguments. You have removed the key scholarly discussion. What do you want? A medal? History2007 ( talk) 21:35, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Nice job of edit-warring, as you complain about edit-warring. The objection is not based on sourcing. It is based on NPOV. Between Humanpublic and myself, this has been pointed out to you 6 times. You are stacking the article with criticism of the concept. You are changing the conensus version. It is your job to show that your edits improve the article. Show why stacking the article doesn't violate NPOV. Minorview ( talk) 23:15, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Minorview and HP have both raised concerns over the NPOV of this article. This is already enough to add a POV-tag, as it is clear that the neutrality of the article is disputed. I would tend to agree with them to a certain point. There is an unusually large number of sources that are Judeo-Christian and concern religion, and most experts mentioned in the article favor a certain POV. I don't agree with Minorview and HP that the best option is to delete those views (they are well sourced) but I do believe that for the article to be NPOV, we need a better balance between different views. Unless, of course, there is a source that would lend support to the current imbalance as being representative of the academic community. Jeppiz ( talk) 00:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
I might be wrong as I haven't had time to look into all sources in detail. I don't think Judeo-Christian sources is a problem, but I do find it a bit problematic that almost all people cited in the article are in favor of it, very few opposed. As I already said, if there is a good neutral source saying that most academics do support it, then it's another story. This is in no way a criticism of your efforts to find several good sources and including them. That is why I reverted the deletion of your additions and also criticized it. In my view, you've done a good and thorough job. Jeppiz ( talk) 00:23, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
You are absolutely incorrect, for I used Duncan per WP:RS/AC where he "surveys the field", not as his own opinion. You have caught nothing. Zero. Zero. Duncan states exactly that, then has a long discussion on Holmes and Paul of Tarsus. Your statement is totally incorrect. And I have of course, of course read the sources. Here is what Duncan concludes himself, as his on opinion:
The next sentence where he states that arguments from silence are not mentioned in Aristotle's Sophistical Refutations or Hamblin's book Fallacies is already included in the article (the section on structure) - it was there before you typed this. What he says in the footnote is that interpreting the "silence of by Aristotle and Hamblin" would be an arg from silence itself. So what Duncan holds himself is that AFS are a "dialogical topos" to be evaluated based on the assignment of authority to the arguer. That is all. His overview of the field is represented as is, and the next item is already in the body of the article. History2007 ( talk) 00:38, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I think in view of the discussions, I should just go ahead and cite policies and guidelines. In Wikipedia articles, weight is assigned to a specific scholarly view as the "majority view" and "minority view" by using the WP:Due policy. This was summarized by Jimmy Wales as follows:
The WP:Due policy thus states:
So to determine the "majority view", we "consider prevalence in reliable sources" and not "prevalence among Wikipedia editors". So it does not matter if HumanPublic, Minorview or 12 other people Wiki-editors assume that scholarly opinion is divided 50/50 on this issue and they need equal weight. That matters not. The determination is made via "prevalence in reliable sources". Is there such a prevalence - I hold that there is not, and I have provided sources in the article to that effect. Am I right? Try to prove I am not by showing prevalence in reliable sources for a 50/50 split, or a source that says "most scholars hold that arguments from silence include no hazards". Just show me source, not source free statements on talk pages. Have I "cherry picked" sources? If so, show it not just hypothesize it, imagine it and then state it; do not just state it without a basis in WP:RS prevalence sourcing.
Now, do we need a source that says "most scholars hold that arguments from silence involve hazards"? Only if we are going to say "most scholars hold that arguments from silence involve hazards". That is where the WP:RS/AC guideline comes in. That is not part of the WP:Due policy, but part of the "Identifying reliable sources" guideline. It states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view."
So here is how it works:
Now, is there a 50/50 prevalence in reliable sources regarding the hazards of arguments from silence? I am categorically stating that not to be the case, and that the prevalence in reliable sources is that they involve hazards, risks and dangers. And I can even provide further references that indicate the prevalence towards the existence of hazards. Note that per WP:Due I do not need a statement that states the prevalence; but we need to make an assessment of the prevalence by providing reliable sources on either side of the issue. Are there many more sources on the other side of the issue? I hold that there are not. Let me say that again: I hold that there are not. If there are, let us see them. Let us see the sources. In Wikipedia, sources rule. This is a straightforward application of policy to determine weight via the determination of the majority and minority views. Policy is clear on this. History2007 ( talk) 10:29, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Just a note here that user:Humanpublic was topic banned and then indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia. History2007 ( talk) 21:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
I also added a section on author's interest now, and included Barnes' analysis. With all these other examples, I can not see why a single reference to Christianity can not appear in the article. There are plenty of other examples anyway. And I do not see any reason for the POV tag, now that there are diverse examples. History2007 ( talk) 04:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)