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While tragic, it don't see where this event is uncommon or unique enough to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia. Things like this happen all the time worldwide. Please state a relevant historical significance -- (unsigned by) Outlanderssc, Dec 16, 2004
Even in the United States this doesn't exactly "happen all the time." We're not quite that crazy. It would be significant in the US. In a less trigger-happy place, it would absolutely be noteworthy. 71.63.119.49 22:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
A massacre is a massacre, no matter where it takes place or how many people they kill. David Gray's actions remain the worst mass murder in New Zealand. And nobody has the right to belittle it by claiming it insignificant.
This sort of thing might be common in America but it is not common in New Zealand. Events like this do not happen here and removing it is a blatant disrespect to those who lost their lives that day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.123.128.117 ( talk) 21:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
What anti Americanism? Stating a plain fact is in no way "anti" anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.100.130.213 ( talk) 10:03, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the link to kurtsaxon.com, because I can't see what it has to do with Aramoana, let alone the massacre. This search on google returns no results. Somehow it's been there since very early in the article's life, though, so if anyone knows what that link has to do with it, I'd be interested to know. Izogi 07:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
This case reminds me of a character named David Greenwood whose seemingly absurd running amok is a start key in J.G. Ballard's Super-Cannes (2000).
The Muttonbirds refer to "some oilskins and a .303 for a hunter over in Westland" which is a reference to Stanley Graham, who went on a shooting spree in the 1940s. I think its same to assume the off-handed "and oh yeah, one of those AK47s for some collector down the line" is a reference to Aramoana.
I removed "Sarkies believes that the subject matter makes for a very powerful film subject." Not encylcopedic. Richard75 22:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The entire "Timeline of events" section reads like it was written by someone who found the whole killing spree thing rather exciting. Douglas Adams would be proud of the last sentence: Gray had claimed 13 victims, leaving the town of Aramoana devastated and with a significantly smaller population than it had had a mere 34 hours before.
I've just taken a look at the suicide by cop article, and I'm not really convinced that Aramoana is really an instance of it, as the article claims. I'd be interested to see what other people think, though.
If David Gray was really intent on committing suicide, there were numerous occasions when he could have made himself known to the police and provoked them. He probably could have let Sergeant Guthrie shoot him quite easily, but instead he distracted and proceeded to kill him. When Gray finally did get shot, he'd been asleep in the house, and was only forced out after the tear gas was thrown in. I guess that Gray probably realised he'd be dead by the end of it, and it might just be that he was accepting the inevitable when he ran out of the house, but I can't really see any evidence that this is anything he'd planned. Add to this that even if he had had suicidal thoughts in the past, this incident started as an argument with his neighbour when he supposedly just lost control, and probably wasn't thinking about suicide. If some people regard this as an instance of suicide by cop, then the article should state who the people are. Otherwise I think it should be removed, and the See also link should probably also be removed from the suicide by cop article. Thoughts? Izogi 21:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Any reason why the article doesn't start off with the date this incident occured? Usually an important feature of a historical event... -- Yeppoon
I have noticed that some parts of the narrative in this article seem to be taken straight from the film, Out of the Blue. Do I really need to point out that the film is a fictional interpretation of the real events, not necessarily identical with the events themselves?! There are aspects of the film which do not completely agree with the events, or where artistic licence has been taken — in particular, the depiction of David Gray's last moments.
My message is that an encyclopaedic narrative of events should come from primary sources where possible, not from a film based on the event. -- 125.238.205.80 07:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Is this the best term to use? It seems like he was the nutty type of survivalist- however, owning several firearms including a cheap Chinese semi-auto AK knockoff doesn't make you a collector. John Nevard 01:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Just from reading a bit about the movie "Out of the Blue" the article states "Jim Dickson's mother Eva" but according to many other sources her name is Helen, I'm a bit confused, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10353715 calls her Eva but many of the movie reviews call her Helen, "Perhaps the most poignant is Helen Dickson (Lois Lawn), an elderly resident who crawls across a street to place a duvet on another of the wounded." is from http://www.lumiere.net.nz/reader/item/1255. Apologies for the formatting (lack thereof) contributing to wikipedia isn't my thing I'm just wondering.( 222.154.110.95 10:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC))
We need a citation for the statement that a scope makes you a more accurate shot? What the fuck people, that's what scopes are made for. Christ, bloody townies.-- 61.30.11.130 ( talk) 07:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Somewhere along the line there seems to have been a 12 hour error introduced to this article. Was the whole incident 22 hours long (8pm to 5.50pm) or 34 hours long (8pm 13th to 5.50am 16th?). I suspect we will have to resort to offline references to resolve this.
Most of the online material now relates to the film, so should be treated with caution.
Two other points: 1) I don't think "standoff" is the correct term. Gray evaded police for 20 hours - they weren't sure which crib he was holed up in.
2) Since David Gray is notable ONLY for this incident, should David Gray (murderer) be merged and redirected here? That would be the policy for a living person. dramatic ( talk) 00:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
What's a "crib"? If it's a term specific to NZ for "house" then the more widely used term should be used. If it's something else, perhaps a link to an article or reference describing it. Maybe treat it like an acronym, put the definition in brackets with the first usage.
Also - what's with the change of the one lady's name from Eva to Helen by this one anon IP? http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aramoana_massacre&diff=208293897&oldid=202544097 I haven't been able to find a reference that indicates what her name actually was, only that it was Jim's mother... CraigWyllie ( talk) 03:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Dudes, I'm a New Zealander and I know what a crib is. But anyone reading this page who's not a Kiwi or a Scot won't know what the hell it refers to. I suggest changing it to "hut" or something like that.
The reason I say this is that I really get annoyed when I read articles written by Americans that use lots of US-centric terms, or that assume outsiders know a bunch of stuff about the US. So if I'm going to grumble about how the Yanks write their articles, then it's only fair that us Kiwis make our stories understandable to most English speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.249.62.29 ( talk) 13:04, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
If readers do not know what a crib is, that is no reason to use an alternative word. Give a definition instead. Royalcourtier ( talk) 07:31, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Following the principle that we cover the events people are notable for and not the people if that is their only notability, I am proceding to merge the article on David Gray with this one. The infobox is the only material which isn't a recap of material already present here, but the bio section on Gray needs some additional background on Gray. None of the online sources have much, but I'm guessing the books will. If anyone already has them avaialble, please add something, otherwise I will try and get hold of a copy. dramatic ( talk) 05:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I changed the number of deaths from thirteen to twelve as reported here on their website. .`^) Paine diss`cuss (^`. 06:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
No worries, the more checking the better :-). I agree the there's room for improvement in the NZ Police description. XLerate ( talk) 14:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I think it may meet
WP:GA?, and could be promoted as a result.
Thanks, Adabow ( talk) 10:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Brianboulton comments: I believe the article needs a lot of work to bring it towards GA standard. I have not carried out a line-by-line study of the text, but here are some issues requiring attention.
Please note that I am not watching peer reviews at the moment, so if you need to contact me about this review please use my talkpage. Brianboulton ( talk) 12:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
According to Zero-Alpha: The NZ Police Armed Offenders Squad official history by Ray Van Beynen, p. 209: "After some discussion it was decided by the Police Administration in 1992 that the name should be changed from the ATS to the STG". The QCBC citation for the 4 personnel who confronted Gray (NZ Gazette 1991/4061) describes them as being "members, of an Anti-Terrorist Squad". Media reports state that the Police Commissioner gave approval for the ATS to be used.
As a result of this - I've changed STG to ATS on this page - and since it is the official history will add the Zero Alpha ref to the STG page to indicate when the squad name was changed. Clarke43 ( talk) 20:54, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone have a citation for: "The situation was considered dangerous as Gray had a scoped rifle, making him potentially accurate at long range. By now the police had ordered that Gray was to be shot on sight - without a warning shot."
Since Police use of firearms regs "don't encourage" the use of warning shots this is regular practice. Shooting without challenge however is another kettle of fish... Clarke43 ( talk) 09:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Warning shots are not standard or logical practice for police anywhere, I would suggest. Shooting without a verbal warning is however contrary to regulations, and murder. Royalcourtier ( talk) 07:41, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Hello!, this is a little late, but the comment above is referring to a message sent to police over their radios (paraphrase) "He is to be warned once and then shot if he does not immediately comply" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.100.130.213 ( talk) 10:08, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
A first reading of the article shows a few gaps, that need filing in. For instance it is implied that the first attempt to contact the police failed, and that only the second call got through. If that is true it should be stated clearly. When the police arrived they surrounded (as well as two men could do!) Grey's crib. But the last we heard of him he was out shooting neighbours. When did he return home, and how did the police know that he was home? And there is a reference to an armoured car. The police do not have armoured cars. What was the vehicle? Royalcourtier ( talk) 07:35, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I put a dubious-tag by the following text:
Helen, who had recently had a hip replacement and was unable to walk without assistance, pulled herself along on her stomach using her arms and feet in a ditch to get inside and phone for help. She then crawled back to Cole to tell him help was coming. After waiting for some time, Helen again crawled back to her house and phoned 1-1-1 (emergency telephone number). |
It seems strange that she would crawl back and forth multiple times. Also, if she called 1-1-1 no sooner than after having crawled the Cole-to-house distance for the third time, who did she call for help the first time she reached inside her house? Mikael Häggström ( talk) 18:25, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
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Aramoana massacre received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 13, 2012 and November 13, 2015. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
While tragic, it don't see where this event is uncommon or unique enough to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia. Things like this happen all the time worldwide. Please state a relevant historical significance -- (unsigned by) Outlanderssc, Dec 16, 2004
Even in the United States this doesn't exactly "happen all the time." We're not quite that crazy. It would be significant in the US. In a less trigger-happy place, it would absolutely be noteworthy. 71.63.119.49 22:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
A massacre is a massacre, no matter where it takes place or how many people they kill. David Gray's actions remain the worst mass murder in New Zealand. And nobody has the right to belittle it by claiming it insignificant.
This sort of thing might be common in America but it is not common in New Zealand. Events like this do not happen here and removing it is a blatant disrespect to those who lost their lives that day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.123.128.117 ( talk) 21:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
What anti Americanism? Stating a plain fact is in no way "anti" anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.100.130.213 ( talk) 10:03, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the link to kurtsaxon.com, because I can't see what it has to do with Aramoana, let alone the massacre. This search on google returns no results. Somehow it's been there since very early in the article's life, though, so if anyone knows what that link has to do with it, I'd be interested to know. Izogi 07:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
This case reminds me of a character named David Greenwood whose seemingly absurd running amok is a start key in J.G. Ballard's Super-Cannes (2000).
The Muttonbirds refer to "some oilskins and a .303 for a hunter over in Westland" which is a reference to Stanley Graham, who went on a shooting spree in the 1940s. I think its same to assume the off-handed "and oh yeah, one of those AK47s for some collector down the line" is a reference to Aramoana.
I removed "Sarkies believes that the subject matter makes for a very powerful film subject." Not encylcopedic. Richard75 22:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The entire "Timeline of events" section reads like it was written by someone who found the whole killing spree thing rather exciting. Douglas Adams would be proud of the last sentence: Gray had claimed 13 victims, leaving the town of Aramoana devastated and with a significantly smaller population than it had had a mere 34 hours before.
I've just taken a look at the suicide by cop article, and I'm not really convinced that Aramoana is really an instance of it, as the article claims. I'd be interested to see what other people think, though.
If David Gray was really intent on committing suicide, there were numerous occasions when he could have made himself known to the police and provoked them. He probably could have let Sergeant Guthrie shoot him quite easily, but instead he distracted and proceeded to kill him. When Gray finally did get shot, he'd been asleep in the house, and was only forced out after the tear gas was thrown in. I guess that Gray probably realised he'd be dead by the end of it, and it might just be that he was accepting the inevitable when he ran out of the house, but I can't really see any evidence that this is anything he'd planned. Add to this that even if he had had suicidal thoughts in the past, this incident started as an argument with his neighbour when he supposedly just lost control, and probably wasn't thinking about suicide. If some people regard this as an instance of suicide by cop, then the article should state who the people are. Otherwise I think it should be removed, and the See also link should probably also be removed from the suicide by cop article. Thoughts? Izogi 21:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Any reason why the article doesn't start off with the date this incident occured? Usually an important feature of a historical event... -- Yeppoon
I have noticed that some parts of the narrative in this article seem to be taken straight from the film, Out of the Blue. Do I really need to point out that the film is a fictional interpretation of the real events, not necessarily identical with the events themselves?! There are aspects of the film which do not completely agree with the events, or where artistic licence has been taken — in particular, the depiction of David Gray's last moments.
My message is that an encyclopaedic narrative of events should come from primary sources where possible, not from a film based on the event. -- 125.238.205.80 07:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Is this the best term to use? It seems like he was the nutty type of survivalist- however, owning several firearms including a cheap Chinese semi-auto AK knockoff doesn't make you a collector. John Nevard 01:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Just from reading a bit about the movie "Out of the Blue" the article states "Jim Dickson's mother Eva" but according to many other sources her name is Helen, I'm a bit confused, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10353715 calls her Eva but many of the movie reviews call her Helen, "Perhaps the most poignant is Helen Dickson (Lois Lawn), an elderly resident who crawls across a street to place a duvet on another of the wounded." is from http://www.lumiere.net.nz/reader/item/1255. Apologies for the formatting (lack thereof) contributing to wikipedia isn't my thing I'm just wondering.( 222.154.110.95 10:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC))
We need a citation for the statement that a scope makes you a more accurate shot? What the fuck people, that's what scopes are made for. Christ, bloody townies.-- 61.30.11.130 ( talk) 07:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Somewhere along the line there seems to have been a 12 hour error introduced to this article. Was the whole incident 22 hours long (8pm to 5.50pm) or 34 hours long (8pm 13th to 5.50am 16th?). I suspect we will have to resort to offline references to resolve this.
Most of the online material now relates to the film, so should be treated with caution.
Two other points: 1) I don't think "standoff" is the correct term. Gray evaded police for 20 hours - they weren't sure which crib he was holed up in.
2) Since David Gray is notable ONLY for this incident, should David Gray (murderer) be merged and redirected here? That would be the policy for a living person. dramatic ( talk) 00:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
What's a "crib"? If it's a term specific to NZ for "house" then the more widely used term should be used. If it's something else, perhaps a link to an article or reference describing it. Maybe treat it like an acronym, put the definition in brackets with the first usage.
Also - what's with the change of the one lady's name from Eva to Helen by this one anon IP? http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aramoana_massacre&diff=208293897&oldid=202544097 I haven't been able to find a reference that indicates what her name actually was, only that it was Jim's mother... CraigWyllie ( talk) 03:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Dudes, I'm a New Zealander and I know what a crib is. But anyone reading this page who's not a Kiwi or a Scot won't know what the hell it refers to. I suggest changing it to "hut" or something like that.
The reason I say this is that I really get annoyed when I read articles written by Americans that use lots of US-centric terms, or that assume outsiders know a bunch of stuff about the US. So if I'm going to grumble about how the Yanks write their articles, then it's only fair that us Kiwis make our stories understandable to most English speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.249.62.29 ( talk) 13:04, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
If readers do not know what a crib is, that is no reason to use an alternative word. Give a definition instead. Royalcourtier ( talk) 07:31, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Following the principle that we cover the events people are notable for and not the people if that is their only notability, I am proceding to merge the article on David Gray with this one. The infobox is the only material which isn't a recap of material already present here, but the bio section on Gray needs some additional background on Gray. None of the online sources have much, but I'm guessing the books will. If anyone already has them avaialble, please add something, otherwise I will try and get hold of a copy. dramatic ( talk) 05:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I changed the number of deaths from thirteen to twelve as reported here on their website. .`^) Paine diss`cuss (^`. 06:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
No worries, the more checking the better :-). I agree the there's room for improvement in the NZ Police description. XLerate ( talk) 14:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I think it may meet
WP:GA?, and could be promoted as a result.
Thanks, Adabow ( talk) 10:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Brianboulton comments: I believe the article needs a lot of work to bring it towards GA standard. I have not carried out a line-by-line study of the text, but here are some issues requiring attention.
Please note that I am not watching peer reviews at the moment, so if you need to contact me about this review please use my talkpage. Brianboulton ( talk) 12:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
According to Zero-Alpha: The NZ Police Armed Offenders Squad official history by Ray Van Beynen, p. 209: "After some discussion it was decided by the Police Administration in 1992 that the name should be changed from the ATS to the STG". The QCBC citation for the 4 personnel who confronted Gray (NZ Gazette 1991/4061) describes them as being "members, of an Anti-Terrorist Squad". Media reports state that the Police Commissioner gave approval for the ATS to be used.
As a result of this - I've changed STG to ATS on this page - and since it is the official history will add the Zero Alpha ref to the STG page to indicate when the squad name was changed. Clarke43 ( talk) 20:54, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone have a citation for: "The situation was considered dangerous as Gray had a scoped rifle, making him potentially accurate at long range. By now the police had ordered that Gray was to be shot on sight - without a warning shot."
Since Police use of firearms regs "don't encourage" the use of warning shots this is regular practice. Shooting without challenge however is another kettle of fish... Clarke43 ( talk) 09:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Warning shots are not standard or logical practice for police anywhere, I would suggest. Shooting without a verbal warning is however contrary to regulations, and murder. Royalcourtier ( talk) 07:41, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Hello!, this is a little late, but the comment above is referring to a message sent to police over their radios (paraphrase) "He is to be warned once and then shot if he does not immediately comply" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.100.130.213 ( talk) 10:08, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
A first reading of the article shows a few gaps, that need filing in. For instance it is implied that the first attempt to contact the police failed, and that only the second call got through. If that is true it should be stated clearly. When the police arrived they surrounded (as well as two men could do!) Grey's crib. But the last we heard of him he was out shooting neighbours. When did he return home, and how did the police know that he was home? And there is a reference to an armoured car. The police do not have armoured cars. What was the vehicle? Royalcourtier ( talk) 07:35, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I put a dubious-tag by the following text:
Helen, who had recently had a hip replacement and was unable to walk without assistance, pulled herself along on her stomach using her arms and feet in a ditch to get inside and phone for help. She then crawled back to Cole to tell him help was coming. After waiting for some time, Helen again crawled back to her house and phoned 1-1-1 (emergency telephone number). |
It seems strange that she would crawl back and forth multiple times. Also, if she called 1-1-1 no sooner than after having crawled the Cole-to-house distance for the third time, who did she call for help the first time she reached inside her house? Mikael Häggström ( talk) 18:25, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
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