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There is already an open discussion about moving Syria from "Governmental Changes" to "Major Protests". Actually, the status of "Governmental Changes" is meant to be one step higher than "Major Protests", but the problem is that countries such as Syria and Yemen, with big events and hundreds deaths, are now mixed with lower activity level countries such as Jordan, Oman and Kuwait where the death toll is between 0-6 people in total.
I recommend that we create a new status / new color for Syria and Yemen to give them credibility without misguidance. The new status will be a step below "Revolution". In this way, we can clearly see the difference between the countries with status "Governmental Changes" in which hardly anything happens and countries where dozens die every day as Syria and Yemen.
Do you agree or are you against this suggestion? -- Tonemgub2010 ( talk) 17:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Someone constantly changes the map of Middle East countries where Turkey is included! Please add the map where Turkey is included as part of major middle East protests! This page was supposed to be protected but many make changes constantly without discussing them first. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.228.183.50 (
talk)
18:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I believe that Syria deserves to have its own section, above "Other countries affected," since it has escalated to the point that it can be compared to the beginning of Libya's civil war. They did deploy tanks after all. All other countries in that section are still "Protests," but Syria has escalated to "Uprising." If no one objects, I would like to make that change. Unflavoured ( talk) 01:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Syria is showing great signs of revolutionary activity and therefore, as stated above, should have it's own section in "Other countries affected." 60'smusic ( talk) 22:44, 27, April 2011 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.101.22 ( talk)
What happened in Djibouti to change the color? There is no evidence of major protests listed anywhere in Wikipedia. Ericl ( talk) 12:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
i think u must move yemen from governmental change to civil uprising because the situation in yemen more close to syria then jordan and kuwait and oman. great article Lebanese journalist
I'm honored to be part of the editing community on this page. But I've noticed some of the other articles this page links to, including 2011 Yemeni protests, 2011 Syrian uprising, Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests, 2011 Armenian protests, 2011 Moroccan protests, and 2011 Azerbaijani protests, as well as the arguably related but unlinked 2011 Kurdish protests in Turkey, have been fairly neglected despite covering ongoing events. If you are able, I think the Wikipedia community would definitely benefit from our crop of good editors here keeping an eye out both for news updates (and adding that information, with citation, to the relevant page) and for unconstructive edits to those pages. Cheers. - Kudzu1 ( talk) 01:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Reuters:
[1]
Fox News:
[2]
CBS:
[3]
BBC:
[4]
Wall Street Journal:
[5]
CNN:
[6]
New York Times:
[7]
Aljazeera:
[8]
Huffington Post:
[9]
Guardian:
[10]
The Nation:
[11]
Time:
[12]
Christian Science Monitor:
[13]
They are all calling it the Arab Spring. In the article, it is made very clear: "several affected countries are not strictly part of the Arab world," so this is not an issue. Try Googling "Arab Spring" and "Middle East and North Africa protests," and exclude Wikipedia. I believe it is time for the article to be called what everyone else is calling it.
Unflavoured (
talk)
01:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
There's a small enclave ( Musandam) of Oman at the tip of the United Arab Emirates that's not colored blue on the map like the rest of the country. — Salmar ( talk) 03:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
All Wikipedia users please listen to the demand of Turkish people for demonstrations. Create and expand the section to add the latest anti-goverment demonstrations which have taken place in Turkish biggest cities Istanbul and Ankara. It is amazing of how many people have participated in these demonstrations condemning the current goverment and demanding a change in this dictatorial style goverment! The harsh and barbaric treatment of Turkish police forces with the arrest of Turkish journalists who wrote against the goverment actions has led to a massive chain reaction. Also many political analysts and journalists all over the globle are describing Turkish democracy as fake and only benefiting those close to the military or goverment organisations. Please expand the article on Turkish recent minor demonstrations which are continously becoming more and more serious.
Turkish protests in Turkey is clearly not related to Kurdish Protests in Turkey. Kavas ( talk) 11:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Since it looks like its not going to be changed to either name, these countries should be removed or put into the Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests. I have never heard of Armenia and Azerbaijan being in the Middle East. Greater, yes but just Middle East, no. I have tried to propose a minor name change to expand the area and accommodate these countries, but I keep hearing the same excuses that look like WP:IDONTLIKEIT, such as "Its euro-centric", or "Not widely used", instead of real reasons. The more countries we add to the page, the harder it will be to put them under one geographic area, so expand the area or don't add them at all. TL565 ( talk) 16:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Agree. Armenia is neither geography wise or politically in the Middle East, and thus putting Armenia here is very inappropriate. Armenia is part of the South Caucasus and is politically part of Europe. Georgian, Armenia, and Azerbaijan all fall in the same category. There is a sharp difference between the Caucasus and the Middle East, cultural, political, history, and obviously geography. This is common knowledge that educated people should know. MosMusy ( talk) 16:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
As we appear to be at loggerheads as to whether the 2011 Kurdish protests in Turkey are properly part of this wave of demonstrations - with some arguing that they are the continuance of a long series of protests that have recently flared up not because of the "Arab Spring", but because of approaching elections, and others arguing that commentators and organizers of protests have drawn explicit parallels and cited inspiration from the protests elsewhere in the Middle East (and in North Africa) - I think a compromise may be in order. This page makes no mention of these ongoing demonstrations in Turkey at all, which makes no sense, because the impact has clearly been felt there. So, my proposal is to include Turkey in the "other regional incidents" while using language that makes it clear that there are other things going on in Turkey, but the success of the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions and the protests among Kurds in Syria and Iraq have been cited as an influence on the turn protests have taken this year.
That would bring the Turkey protests roughly in line with the protests in Western Sahara, which we do mention on this page while making it explicit that the Sahrawis have caught a wave rather than actually starting fresh protests because unrest is in the neighborhood and the regime is unpopular (which seems to be the situation in all of the other countries currently on the map; a few of these countries were already unstable, but they weren't accustomed to anything like major protests just starting up spontaneously). - Kudzu1 ( talk) 02:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
I ordered the table by the "result" column, and as I expected, it was ordered by alphabetically by the name of the outcome. It would, I think, be much better if we could get it to sort by the "severity" of the result, eg: Revolution, Armed conflict, Governmental changes, Civil uprising, Major protests, Minor protests. I was considering adding in invisible unicode characters at the start of the names, but I didn't know if there are enough, and it would be easily broken by an unwitting editor. Is there any way we can make this happen? maybe a template of some kind? Quantum Burrito ( talk) 19:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Why not have a flag for western sahara when we have one for the palestinian territories? Fipplet أهلا و سهلا 00:03, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Maybe it would be best to use both flags for Western Sahara. Also, same should be done for Libya. -- 93.139.0.116 ( talk) 06:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
This was discussed before here. Basically - Western Sahara doesn't have a flag. Morocco and SADR have flags, but neither of those seems appropriate to use in this case. Alinor ( talk) 12:47, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
As the flag of Libya is presently disputed between two governments that enjoy partial international recognition, I believe it would be best not to endorse either view and to remove the flag next to the link to the 2011 Libyan civil war in our table. Thoughts? - Kudzu1 ( talk) 22:15, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
If Armenia and Azerbaijan moved here as "middle eastern" (from Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests), then Northern Cyprus should be included too. Alinor ( talk) 12:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
There are currently a couple of redirects pointing here suggesting there's a section on Somalia ( 2011 Somali protests and 2011 Somalian protests). Just wondering if the mention of Somalia will be reinstated at some point or whether it's better to delete the redirects. Thanks. -- Closedmouth ( talk) 15:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I just don't understand why someone replaced a perfectly good map with this thing.The choice of colors if terrible.Use warm colors.The current map is an eyesore,seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.47.11.31 ( talk) 22:13, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
The color for protests should be dark,this way it looks like spilled milk.Dark Yellow was way better,the rest is good as it is.-- 31.47.11.31 ( talk) 22:31, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
In the summary of protests by country, for Morocco, it says: Death toll: 7 (including 2 beaten to death). With all respect to those two individuals and their families and relatives, is there any extraordinary circumstance that motivates more attention to those two compared to everyone else that has been beaten to death in, for example, Libya and Egypt? Mikael Häggström ( talk) 06:06, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
What ever happened to the clickable feature of the map? It was much more useful when you could click on an area and it would bring you to the article about that country.-- Found5dollar ( talk) 14:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
As the situation is constantly developing, I think its worth thinking about how we are representing it. I have come up with a draft new map (right) to combat several things that I don't think work with the current one, including:
I think it is worth getting more input on this, even if this isn't this plan isn't used directly on the main page. My main question is - do you think this system of categorisation works better than the existing? Twelvechairs ( talk) 01:42, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
The map is excellent but Turkey should belong to major protests —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.228.183.50 ( talk) 16:29, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Okay. I have updated this on the main page (I have a feeling there will be more input now it is visible). I don't want to put down anyones comments (eg. whether 'Sustained Civil Disorder' is the right categorisation name, or right for Bahrain) by not including them yet, just think it might be worth seeing what some more people think. A couple of comments from my side - I think Bahrain does belong in this group because (even though it is now much calmer) there was strong civil unrest there for weeks, also the numbers of dead per head of population is almost double that of any other country except Libya. As for the the distinction of 'minor' and 'major' protests, I think this is a little spurious too (note that I have removed the term 'minor'), but didnt want to be _too_ overwhelmingly different with this map (its nice to have some continuity after all), so haven't done anything with that here. Twelvechairs ( talk) 01:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Support???OK,I'm not going to comment that,but I will comment the use of colors.Replace the color for protests with something better or something darker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.47.11.31 ( talk) 22:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps the best way is separating the protests from the government reaction. Have one colour with several shades for the uprising, and another colour with several shades for the response. For instance, you might have:
For countries where both protests and changes have occurred you'd have stripes. So Egypt and Tunisia would probably be major protests with revolution, Bahrain major protests with government changes, Kuwait minor protests with government changes, Saudi Arabia minor protests only etc. I think getting too tied up about adding new degrees of conflict for border-line countries like Syria, or a civil war category for Libya is over-complicating what is supposed to be a simple visual guide. How much protest has there been and what is the result of that so far? For Libya it would probably be major conflict with government changes - two bodies competing for power. This would show very simply that Libya has had more bloodshed for less result than a country like Egypt. The details are in the article. Inny Binny ( talk) 10:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
What about small coloured dots within the countries? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.148.191.237 (
talk)
19:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Again, neither Armenia or the other South Caucasian countries don't belong in this article. They are politically not part of Middle East (Council of Europe) and are geographically not considered part of Middle East (some considered part of "Greater Middle East"). That being said, it is grossly inaccurate to put Armenia in this article as part of Middle East. The political climate of Armenia also does not reflected the political climates of other Middle Eastern countries given it's a politically European nation. MosMusy ( talk) 03:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Agree: There was already a discussion on this, [15] TL565 ( talk) 04:30, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Africa in order to count protests in Mauritania and Djibouti (interesting side thought: what do we do if these protests are ongoing when South Sudan formally secedes?). - Kudzu1 ( talk) 05:31, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
http://europa.eu/abc/european_countries/others/index_en.htm http://www.armradio.am/news/?part=pol&id=18723 http://www.gov.am/en/news/item/5418/ http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=armenia8217s-european-perpectives-2010-09-23 http://www.yerevanreport.com/5012/armenia-step-up-european-integration/
Here are some selected quotes:
"On May 27, President Serzh Sargsyan met in Brussels with Herman Van Rompuy, President of the European Council.
The President of Armenia reiterated the readiness of the Armenian authorities to cooperate closely with the European structures and stressed that due to her values and aspirations Armenia is an indivisible part of Europe. "
"Hovhannes Hovhannisyan said there is a quite strong opinion in Armenia that the country’s future lies with Europe. “There is no talk about Asia,” he said, adding that Armenian society considers itself European and celebrates its European origins and values. "
This is from Armenia's Former Foreign Minister
"If it used to be religion that bound Europe together a millennium ago, it certainly isn't any longer. Nor is it the economic advancement that was specific to Europe two centuries ago. It isn't ideology either, which was both adhesive and encumbrance for decades in the last century.
Europe is more than its common history, more than geography, more than a club for members. All those who've said Europe is an idea are right. It is the idea of a Europe that is the common, if unattainable ideal.
Even those living outside this space have imagined and desired a Europe which can be addressed collectively, a partner which can be enlisted conveniently, a Europe to which they yearn to belong.
Armenia is Europe. This is a fact, it's not a response to a question.
The collapse of the USSR brought us to a point of economic and political crisis. I remember our discussions in Armenia, before our entry into the Council of Europe. There were many questions about the choice of path to take.
Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality. I'm happy to say I won't be going there because I was among the loudest advocates of the European path.
The choice was clear. Armenians believe in the values of the European enlightenment, of European civilization. The moral, ethical and existential choices that bring individuals and societies to select democracy over other forms of government, rule of law over rule of man, human rights over selective rights those choices have been made.
A people who have lived under subjugation, have seen ethnic cleansing and genocide even before the terms existed, have lived as a minority without rights, now belong to a world where warring neighbors have found that they can accept new borders based on realities on the ground and move on. Europe's nation-states have found that they can transcend borders, without diminishing or ignoring cultural spaces, without expecting historical identities to vanish.
The European Neighborhood Policy brings Armenia back home since Armenia's foreign policy priority is the gradual integration of Armenia into European institutions.
In his presentation, my good friend, Senator Demetro Volcic described in ponderous detail my country's foreign policy priorities. I must admit that he is well aware of them not as a common bystander, but as a caring and thoughtful professional, who has proven to be instrumental in helping to integrate Armenia into the modern European architecture.
The double digit GDP growth, which Armenia achieved each of the last five years, the successful admission into the WTO, the spirit of the free enterprise, the changing political system and society are promising signs that we are on the right track. However, it is too early to say that the European standard is round the corner. It is not as close yet as Europe itself, as Venice, as Verona, as the shared cultural and religious values of the past and present.
To highlight and share those values, we will be launching a two-month long Days of Italy in Armenia, beginning in early October. This project has received the blessing and patronage of President Ciampi, President Kocharian and Governor Galan. The centerpiece of these important events will be an exhibition of the riches from the Isla Armena.
In light of all this, then, the Fondazione Masi has, in bestowing upon me this award, put a great stamp of approval on Armenia, its foreign policy directions, its European orientation, its future.
I thank you
"
This is also essential, from Official Governmental Standpoint on Foreign Policy:
"In the framework of European integration Armenia continues to consistently implement reforms aimed at building democratic institutions and civil society in line with European standards and principles.
Armenia’s inclusion in European Neighbourhood Policy, signing and the beginning of the implementation of the Action Plan in 2006 was a significant progress on the path of European integration. These processes will make it possible for Armenia in the nearest future to move in some areas from the cooperation stage to integration stage with the EU.
European integration for Armenia is not an aim in itself. It will positively influence the social fabric, will help to strengthen democracy, civil society and rule of law. Eventually it will ascertain in Armenian and European perceptions that Armenia is an inalienable part of Europe.
EU has initiated a number of important regional programs (TRACECA, TACIS, INOGATE, Regional Environmental Centre) and their successful implementation will not only serve as a serious impetus for economic development, but will contribute to the atmosphere of mutual trust, stability and cooperation.
European integration includes also a security component and is viewed by Armenia in the context of Euro-Atlantic partnership."
There are many more quotes and backings of this, but I think you get the point. Armenia has also had significant historical contact with Europe during its times of independence (which wasn't many unfortunately) for example the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia.
In order to not include Armenia as a part of Europe you are refuting clear Armenian governmental and EU governmental policy.
And one more thing, why isn't Georgia included? Are they part of Europe but Armenia part of Middle East? It's a really laughable notion and people here should really be consistent and stop contorting facts and history. MosMusy ( talk) 06:59, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
note - Armenia is a part of Europe culturally. Armenia is located in Asia geographically. Armenia should be included in this article. I don't believe there is any contradiction between those statements. The protests/rebellions/revolutions initially started in a Arab and Muslim country, but spread subsequently to countries with more diverse demographics, the best example being Iran, a Muslim but not Arab country. It is my understanding that the protests/rebellions/revolutions in all adjacent countries are interconnected by many concurrent factors, quote "economic decline, unemployment, extreme poverty, and a number of demographic structural factors, such as a large percentage of educated but dissatisfied youth within the population", and also by the boldness one acquires on observing oppressed citizens of another country rise to challenge their government/dictatorship. These events also started in a country located in Africa, but they have spread outside of it, in the region where Africa, Asia, and Europe meet. This article is about all these protests/rebellions/revolutions, and although I feel it could be possibly splitted to the initial events that have a conclusion (Tunisia, Egypt) and the ongoing events, I don't think that it would be wise to do so in an a priori way. Schwarz Ente ( talk) 11:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
CommentRather than fight over a nation's geopolitical association, how about a compromise? Focus the article on events directly attributed to the Tunisian revolution and anything else to a concurrent incidents section. This will make it easier to split later on. -- Blackmane ( talk) 11:15, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
The protests also spread to China, Croatia, and even US why not include them? They were also citing the Arab protests as inspiration for theirs. Look the main problem here is portraying Armenia has a "Middle Eastern" country as the title of the article is clearly "Middle Eastern and North African protests". What this article does thus is put Armenia only under a "Middle Eastern" light and ignore all the other facts regarding Armenia's legitimate association with Europe. It portrays Armenia as being part of the region in all aspects that include countries such as Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, or Syria. This is again, blatantly false and is the wrong connotation for Armenia. Why is Armenia being portrayed in such a biased light? Why is there no mention of Armenia's real association? Let me remind you that many of the protests in Armenia are inspired by EU democracy as EU democratic ideals are often mentioned by the protesters. Heck, they even blast the EU national anthem during each of the protests. So don't tell me they only take their inspiration from the Arab protests. They have cited the Arab protests to advance their cause, but in the end their real inspiration is from Europe as it has always been, which of course is expected. I will ask once again, stop portraying Armenia in this biased light of being only a Middle Eastern country and make some changes, as it is skewing the factual integrity of these events, and skewing the factual evidence of the events in Armenia. And finally, Geography wise Armenia is part of South Caucasus not Middle East. I have said this many, many time but Middle East and South Caucasus are two different entities!! Some times S. Caucasus may be included in "greater Middle East" however the legitimacy of that term is very dubious. I hope people here can see the dishonour this article is doing to the truth. MosMusy ( talk) 16:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country and whoever considers it is wrong. Are you just going to sustain clear falsity throughout Wikipedia? Neither Geographically, culturally, or politically. Stop repeating an inaccuracy that many people that don't know about the region hold. And Let me Guess while Armenia belong with the Arab countries, Georgia belongs with Europe? That a whole load of garbage right there - and is evident of a clear anti-Armenian agenda here.
First off here is another article regarding Armenia's president's views on Armenia and Europe when meeting with top European politicians:
President Serzh Sarkisian asserted Armenia’s European vocation on Wednesday at a meeting with the visiting head of an alliance of Europe’s leading conservative parties. Sarkisian and Wilfried Martens, a former Belgian prime minister leading the European People’s Party (EPP), met in Yerevan to discuss the country’s growing links with the European Union. “We consider ourselves to be Europeans,” Sarkisian was quoted by his press office as telling Martens. “We are seeking to live by the rules of that [European] family, the value system espoused by it, and in this regard, our orientation is very obvious.” According to a statement by the presidential office, Martens agreed that Armenia is “a European country,” pointing to its membership in the Council of Europe and inclusion in the EU’s Eastern Partnership program. Sarkisian assured him that his administration regards the scheme as a “window of opportunity” to bring Armenia closer to Europe and implement “large-scale reforms in various areas” in the process. The Armenian leader’s stated commitment to “European values” is bound to be challenged by his domestic political opponents. They have long accused him of rigging elections and illegally enriching himself. ”
The opposition (ANC) naturally looks to the European structures.
Here's a testimony to the ode to joy, I've seen it on video also.
"Without a doubt Levon is one of the most charismatic, eloquent Armenian speakers I have heard, and in that sense I can see how he can still be able to muster a following. But what ensued after the chorus from Beethoven’s “Ode to Joy”--the last movement of his ninth symphony and apparently Levon’s theme song--died down was nothing I was expecting to hear." MosMusy ( talk) 02:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I propose that a separate article be made for countries that have had protests but are not in the region. Maybe something like "Protests elsewhere during the Arab Spring" where countries like Armenia, Croatia, China, US, etc would be included. Again putting in this article wrongly ties Armenia to the Middle East, especially politically, which is blatantly false. MosMusy ( talk) 02:41, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Armenia should be transferred to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_2010%E2%80%932011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests. I can begin the process if the editors here don't do it. MosMusy ( talk) 03:23, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Something I wrote to Kudzu earlier that should be stressed here: So you are ready to establish the term 'Greater Middle East' which was coined by the Bush Administration has a official Geographical term now? That term has many flaws and the authorities on this subject have never coined that as an official term. So, really it is inappropriate in all cases. The thing is, that the South Caucasus is a unique part of Southwest Asia/Eastern Europe. That is why Armenia is often considered to be part of just the Caucasus as the Caucasus merits its separate Geographical term. There's even a clear geographical divide between the South Caucasus and the Middle East, if you look at the elevations and mountain ranges. So putting Armenia in this article that is clearly titled "Middle East protests" is highly insensitive and is inaccurate. If the title was more broader, not limiting to Middle East, I would not have problem, but since it limits, I have problem, thus I believe Armenia should be placed in the "Impact page" which is a rather developed article. MosMusy (talk) 04:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Can we move Armenia to ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_2010%E2%80%932011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests) already? I have proved here beyond a doubt to what region Armenia is connected to. Given these are political protests, it's even more important to heed the fact that Armenia is 100% politically part of Europe. As I have repeated over and over, the South Caucasus merit their own entity, that is why Armenia is often depicted as a country in the Caucasus. And even geography wise there is a clear difference between S. Caucasus and Middle East. So the connections to Middle East are only present in the fact that Armenia is located in a border region between Western Asia and Eastern Europe (aka Transcaucasus!!) MosMusy ( talk) 04:36, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Why would Armenian protesters compare themselves to Croatia? They don't compare themselves to any country and they pressure the European political structures to put pressure on the current government for more reforms. The quotes that I have shown show clearly with what region Armenian state is connected to and what direction we are moving towards. I have shown you the proof of EU stating that Armenia is a European country by their standards, and honestly that's all we need really. That EU decision is a critical factor here and you cannot deny that. China can become "pro-EU" and do all this and that - but EU will never consider them a part of Europe and nor will their state make the statements regarding historic and cultural connections to Europe, which Armenia has. Do I really need to put evidence that Armenia is firmly part of the Caucasus? The notion that the Caucasus is separate from the Middle East is established fact - you should know that. Read this article about Caucasus if you want to be more clear on it : http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/100270/Caucasus MosMusy ( talk) 05:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I have proven to you several things here:
MosMusy ( talk) 05:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I responded to your source already, and said it doesn't refute the points I've made, and noted to you the nature of that source.
You have to be careful on your distinctions between ME and Caucasus. You seem not to get the sensitive difference between the two. Maybe because you are not from the region. I don't know. But it is crucial for you the understand this difference before talking about where Armenia belongs. (We could have a section in the Impact article regarding the Caucasus countries) MosMusy ( talk) 06:44, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Wow, just wow. Iran is Armenia's largest backer on international stage? Look, we have good relations with Iran, especially economical. So given Europe gets gas and other economic goods from Asia, and is connected to it economically, makes it Asian? That argument is rather weak. Again, you cannot refute the fact that Armenia is politically part of Europe. We do have contacts with rest of the world including middle east, and our strategic partner is Russia, but again having contacts does not equal being politically part of. MosMusy ( talk) 07:07, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Please, everyone, calm down! Schwarz Ente ( talk) 07:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Please read Talk:2010–2011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests#On_the_article's_name,_the_universe,_and_everything Schwarz Ente ( talk) 09:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
As per [18]. It seems he's being forced out by an internal feud with Ayatollah Khamenei rather than bowing to pressure from the streets, so I think it would be improper to attribute this to the protests directly, if at all. How should we handle this, assuming it actually happens (we should be ready)? Suggestions? - Kudzu1 ( talk) 05:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I myself try sometimes to foresee how the future might unfold, but this shouldn't be our guide for editing Wikipedia. I believe, in other words, that we must wait and see. Regards, and take care. Schwarz Ente ( talk) 07:49, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
The map includes the Greek island of Rhodes under Turkey's color, implying it is under their sovereignty, it is not. -- Smart ( talk) 03:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm finding it quite concerning from a content perspective that this article fails to really mention anything of the immigration crisis on the Italian island of Lampedusa. Frankly, this has become a huge humanitarian issue in which hundreds have died, and governments in North Africa and Europe have been scrambling to deal with. Does anyone think we should start an article like 2011 Lampedusa crisis, Lampedusa in the Arab Spring or something to that effect? -- Kuzwa ( talk) 03:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
History is happening.
The problem, as I see it, is that this article does not include in a comprehensive, precise way revolutions that are happening outside the Arab countries and revolutions that are happening outside the Middle East. On the other hand, the article Impact_of_2010–2011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests is talking about a lot of things, but certainly doesn't have the scope of an article about those revolutions, as it includes minor protests and marches in relatively stable countries, censorship in countries that there aren't even minor protests and even resignations of a politician and a businessman/academic. Those are certainly the "impact" of the initial events of the 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests, but the ongoing revolutions are not the impact of the "2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests", they are these "protests". What I feel is causing the problem is that an article like 2011 Global Revolutionary Wave, or 2011 Revolutions, or Second Renaissance, or 2011 The Oppressed Strike Back! is missing. Well, the events started in a few Arab countries and christened "Arab Spring", which I believe should have it's own article, although what exactly will be included is unclear to me. This mass uprising is presently happening in a lot of countries, several of which are not Arab and I see them as part of the same, organic, phenomenon that is spreading. Certainly, all of them should thank the Arab people for the balls they had to say "enough is enough" to their dictators, initiating the whole thing, but it's not as if a hyppothetical US revolution happening as a consequence of this could be called part of the Arab Spring! On the other hand, clamping everything up in a generic "Impact" article makes it seem that, while the Arabs are revolting, in the other countries there are just a couple of guys throwing tomatoes to a policeman, which is certainly not the case right now.
I would like input on this from everyone! Schwarz Ente ( talk) 09:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Per the outcome of the discussion above there is no sense in adding to confusion by keeping these two countries on a map in an article that does not talk about them. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 21:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Take a look at the current sections in the article. Most of them read like so:
On [date x1], [event y1] happened.
On [date x2], [event y2] happened.
On [date x3], [event y3] happened.
This is not what an encyclopaedic article should read like. These are just bullet points. I propose we start re-writing the articles sections, but add guidelines so that it does not become too long ( and it HAS become too long ) or too bullet-pointy.
This is my proposal:
1- A single short ( 2-4 sentences ) paragraph introducing the background/motives: "The protests in [country Z] started in [date x1], fuelled by many years of government corruption and [other reasons]. Protesters demanded [demands 1, 2 and 3]." The reason is that many section dive directly in the events without giving a suitable introductory paragraph.
2- One or two paragraphs detailing the MAIN EVENTS of the protests. The dates of MAJOR protests and their locations, perhaps, or when significant events occurred. All other minor details should left out, since interested readers can simply click on the full articles for that. The reason for this becomes readily apparent when you compare the current section for Egypt with that of Syria.
3- A short final paragraph detailing the outcome/current status of the protests for that region.
If we follow the above, and avoid bullet-points from becoming 75% of the content, then we can have a much more presentable article, shorter in length and more informative than what it is now.
If no one objects, perhaps we can tackle this one section at a time ?! Unflavoured ( talk) 06:59, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
The map in the overview section shows a part internationally recognized as part of Syria (Golan) as if it was part of Israel. If this non neutral pov is not corrected, Im going to remove the map. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 11:28, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
First of I would like everyone to read this article here [24]. And than consider the possible need to include todays' protests by the Palestinians as part of the Arab spring. What does everyone think? EkoGraf ( talk) 02:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Supreme Deliciousness, with whom we had a fruitless discussion about the status of the Golan Heights moved information about that protest to Syria. Which very definitely violates WP:NPOV, but it it's really not worth my time to get embroiled in an argument with someone with such a strong opinion on the Arab-Israeli conflict. But I thought I should put that out there. Let others deal with the issue if they have the energy or the time. -- Quintucket ( talk) 04:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 14 |
There is already an open discussion about moving Syria from "Governmental Changes" to "Major Protests". Actually, the status of "Governmental Changes" is meant to be one step higher than "Major Protests", but the problem is that countries such as Syria and Yemen, with big events and hundreds deaths, are now mixed with lower activity level countries such as Jordan, Oman and Kuwait where the death toll is between 0-6 people in total.
I recommend that we create a new status / new color for Syria and Yemen to give them credibility without misguidance. The new status will be a step below "Revolution". In this way, we can clearly see the difference between the countries with status "Governmental Changes" in which hardly anything happens and countries where dozens die every day as Syria and Yemen.
Do you agree or are you against this suggestion? -- Tonemgub2010 ( talk) 17:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Someone constantly changes the map of Middle East countries where Turkey is included! Please add the map where Turkey is included as part of major middle East protests! This page was supposed to be protected but many make changes constantly without discussing them first. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.228.183.50 (
talk)
18:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I believe that Syria deserves to have its own section, above "Other countries affected," since it has escalated to the point that it can be compared to the beginning of Libya's civil war. They did deploy tanks after all. All other countries in that section are still "Protests," but Syria has escalated to "Uprising." If no one objects, I would like to make that change. Unflavoured ( talk) 01:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Syria is showing great signs of revolutionary activity and therefore, as stated above, should have it's own section in "Other countries affected." 60'smusic ( talk) 22:44, 27, April 2011 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.101.22 ( talk)
What happened in Djibouti to change the color? There is no evidence of major protests listed anywhere in Wikipedia. Ericl ( talk) 12:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
i think u must move yemen from governmental change to civil uprising because the situation in yemen more close to syria then jordan and kuwait and oman. great article Lebanese journalist
I'm honored to be part of the editing community on this page. But I've noticed some of the other articles this page links to, including 2011 Yemeni protests, 2011 Syrian uprising, Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests, 2011 Armenian protests, 2011 Moroccan protests, and 2011 Azerbaijani protests, as well as the arguably related but unlinked 2011 Kurdish protests in Turkey, have been fairly neglected despite covering ongoing events. If you are able, I think the Wikipedia community would definitely benefit from our crop of good editors here keeping an eye out both for news updates (and adding that information, with citation, to the relevant page) and for unconstructive edits to those pages. Cheers. - Kudzu1 ( talk) 01:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Reuters:
[1]
Fox News:
[2]
CBS:
[3]
BBC:
[4]
Wall Street Journal:
[5]
CNN:
[6]
New York Times:
[7]
Aljazeera:
[8]
Huffington Post:
[9]
Guardian:
[10]
The Nation:
[11]
Time:
[12]
Christian Science Monitor:
[13]
They are all calling it the Arab Spring. In the article, it is made very clear: "several affected countries are not strictly part of the Arab world," so this is not an issue. Try Googling "Arab Spring" and "Middle East and North Africa protests," and exclude Wikipedia. I believe it is time for the article to be called what everyone else is calling it.
Unflavoured (
talk)
01:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
There's a small enclave ( Musandam) of Oman at the tip of the United Arab Emirates that's not colored blue on the map like the rest of the country. — Salmar ( talk) 03:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
All Wikipedia users please listen to the demand of Turkish people for demonstrations. Create and expand the section to add the latest anti-goverment demonstrations which have taken place in Turkish biggest cities Istanbul and Ankara. It is amazing of how many people have participated in these demonstrations condemning the current goverment and demanding a change in this dictatorial style goverment! The harsh and barbaric treatment of Turkish police forces with the arrest of Turkish journalists who wrote against the goverment actions has led to a massive chain reaction. Also many political analysts and journalists all over the globle are describing Turkish democracy as fake and only benefiting those close to the military or goverment organisations. Please expand the article on Turkish recent minor demonstrations which are continously becoming more and more serious.
Turkish protests in Turkey is clearly not related to Kurdish Protests in Turkey. Kavas ( talk) 11:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Since it looks like its not going to be changed to either name, these countries should be removed or put into the Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests. I have never heard of Armenia and Azerbaijan being in the Middle East. Greater, yes but just Middle East, no. I have tried to propose a minor name change to expand the area and accommodate these countries, but I keep hearing the same excuses that look like WP:IDONTLIKEIT, such as "Its euro-centric", or "Not widely used", instead of real reasons. The more countries we add to the page, the harder it will be to put them under one geographic area, so expand the area or don't add them at all. TL565 ( talk) 16:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Agree. Armenia is neither geography wise or politically in the Middle East, and thus putting Armenia here is very inappropriate. Armenia is part of the South Caucasus and is politically part of Europe. Georgian, Armenia, and Azerbaijan all fall in the same category. There is a sharp difference between the Caucasus and the Middle East, cultural, political, history, and obviously geography. This is common knowledge that educated people should know. MosMusy ( talk) 16:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
As we appear to be at loggerheads as to whether the 2011 Kurdish protests in Turkey are properly part of this wave of demonstrations - with some arguing that they are the continuance of a long series of protests that have recently flared up not because of the "Arab Spring", but because of approaching elections, and others arguing that commentators and organizers of protests have drawn explicit parallels and cited inspiration from the protests elsewhere in the Middle East (and in North Africa) - I think a compromise may be in order. This page makes no mention of these ongoing demonstrations in Turkey at all, which makes no sense, because the impact has clearly been felt there. So, my proposal is to include Turkey in the "other regional incidents" while using language that makes it clear that there are other things going on in Turkey, but the success of the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions and the protests among Kurds in Syria and Iraq have been cited as an influence on the turn protests have taken this year.
That would bring the Turkey protests roughly in line with the protests in Western Sahara, which we do mention on this page while making it explicit that the Sahrawis have caught a wave rather than actually starting fresh protests because unrest is in the neighborhood and the regime is unpopular (which seems to be the situation in all of the other countries currently on the map; a few of these countries were already unstable, but they weren't accustomed to anything like major protests just starting up spontaneously). - Kudzu1 ( talk) 02:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
I ordered the table by the "result" column, and as I expected, it was ordered by alphabetically by the name of the outcome. It would, I think, be much better if we could get it to sort by the "severity" of the result, eg: Revolution, Armed conflict, Governmental changes, Civil uprising, Major protests, Minor protests. I was considering adding in invisible unicode characters at the start of the names, but I didn't know if there are enough, and it would be easily broken by an unwitting editor. Is there any way we can make this happen? maybe a template of some kind? Quantum Burrito ( talk) 19:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Why not have a flag for western sahara when we have one for the palestinian territories? Fipplet أهلا و سهلا 00:03, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Maybe it would be best to use both flags for Western Sahara. Also, same should be done for Libya. -- 93.139.0.116 ( talk) 06:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
This was discussed before here. Basically - Western Sahara doesn't have a flag. Morocco and SADR have flags, but neither of those seems appropriate to use in this case. Alinor ( talk) 12:47, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
As the flag of Libya is presently disputed between two governments that enjoy partial international recognition, I believe it would be best not to endorse either view and to remove the flag next to the link to the 2011 Libyan civil war in our table. Thoughts? - Kudzu1 ( talk) 22:15, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
If Armenia and Azerbaijan moved here as "middle eastern" (from Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests), then Northern Cyprus should be included too. Alinor ( talk) 12:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
There are currently a couple of redirects pointing here suggesting there's a section on Somalia ( 2011 Somali protests and 2011 Somalian protests). Just wondering if the mention of Somalia will be reinstated at some point or whether it's better to delete the redirects. Thanks. -- Closedmouth ( talk) 15:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I just don't understand why someone replaced a perfectly good map with this thing.The choice of colors if terrible.Use warm colors.The current map is an eyesore,seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.47.11.31 ( talk) 22:13, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
The color for protests should be dark,this way it looks like spilled milk.Dark Yellow was way better,the rest is good as it is.-- 31.47.11.31 ( talk) 22:31, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
In the summary of protests by country, for Morocco, it says: Death toll: 7 (including 2 beaten to death). With all respect to those two individuals and their families and relatives, is there any extraordinary circumstance that motivates more attention to those two compared to everyone else that has been beaten to death in, for example, Libya and Egypt? Mikael Häggström ( talk) 06:06, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
What ever happened to the clickable feature of the map? It was much more useful when you could click on an area and it would bring you to the article about that country.-- Found5dollar ( talk) 14:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
As the situation is constantly developing, I think its worth thinking about how we are representing it. I have come up with a draft new map (right) to combat several things that I don't think work with the current one, including:
I think it is worth getting more input on this, even if this isn't this plan isn't used directly on the main page. My main question is - do you think this system of categorisation works better than the existing? Twelvechairs ( talk) 01:42, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
The map is excellent but Turkey should belong to major protests —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.228.183.50 ( talk) 16:29, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Okay. I have updated this on the main page (I have a feeling there will be more input now it is visible). I don't want to put down anyones comments (eg. whether 'Sustained Civil Disorder' is the right categorisation name, or right for Bahrain) by not including them yet, just think it might be worth seeing what some more people think. A couple of comments from my side - I think Bahrain does belong in this group because (even though it is now much calmer) there was strong civil unrest there for weeks, also the numbers of dead per head of population is almost double that of any other country except Libya. As for the the distinction of 'minor' and 'major' protests, I think this is a little spurious too (note that I have removed the term 'minor'), but didnt want to be _too_ overwhelmingly different with this map (its nice to have some continuity after all), so haven't done anything with that here. Twelvechairs ( talk) 01:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Support???OK,I'm not going to comment that,but I will comment the use of colors.Replace the color for protests with something better or something darker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.47.11.31 ( talk) 22:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps the best way is separating the protests from the government reaction. Have one colour with several shades for the uprising, and another colour with several shades for the response. For instance, you might have:
For countries where both protests and changes have occurred you'd have stripes. So Egypt and Tunisia would probably be major protests with revolution, Bahrain major protests with government changes, Kuwait minor protests with government changes, Saudi Arabia minor protests only etc. I think getting too tied up about adding new degrees of conflict for border-line countries like Syria, or a civil war category for Libya is over-complicating what is supposed to be a simple visual guide. How much protest has there been and what is the result of that so far? For Libya it would probably be major conflict with government changes - two bodies competing for power. This would show very simply that Libya has had more bloodshed for less result than a country like Egypt. The details are in the article. Inny Binny ( talk) 10:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
What about small coloured dots within the countries? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.148.191.237 (
talk)
19:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Again, neither Armenia or the other South Caucasian countries don't belong in this article. They are politically not part of Middle East (Council of Europe) and are geographically not considered part of Middle East (some considered part of "Greater Middle East"). That being said, it is grossly inaccurate to put Armenia in this article as part of Middle East. The political climate of Armenia also does not reflected the political climates of other Middle Eastern countries given it's a politically European nation. MosMusy ( talk) 03:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Agree: There was already a discussion on this, [15] TL565 ( talk) 04:30, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Africa in order to count protests in Mauritania and Djibouti (interesting side thought: what do we do if these protests are ongoing when South Sudan formally secedes?). - Kudzu1 ( talk) 05:31, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
http://europa.eu/abc/european_countries/others/index_en.htm http://www.armradio.am/news/?part=pol&id=18723 http://www.gov.am/en/news/item/5418/ http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=armenia8217s-european-perpectives-2010-09-23 http://www.yerevanreport.com/5012/armenia-step-up-european-integration/
Here are some selected quotes:
"On May 27, President Serzh Sargsyan met in Brussels with Herman Van Rompuy, President of the European Council.
The President of Armenia reiterated the readiness of the Armenian authorities to cooperate closely with the European structures and stressed that due to her values and aspirations Armenia is an indivisible part of Europe. "
"Hovhannes Hovhannisyan said there is a quite strong opinion in Armenia that the country’s future lies with Europe. “There is no talk about Asia,” he said, adding that Armenian society considers itself European and celebrates its European origins and values. "
This is from Armenia's Former Foreign Minister
"If it used to be religion that bound Europe together a millennium ago, it certainly isn't any longer. Nor is it the economic advancement that was specific to Europe two centuries ago. It isn't ideology either, which was both adhesive and encumbrance for decades in the last century.
Europe is more than its common history, more than geography, more than a club for members. All those who've said Europe is an idea are right. It is the idea of a Europe that is the common, if unattainable ideal.
Even those living outside this space have imagined and desired a Europe which can be addressed collectively, a partner which can be enlisted conveniently, a Europe to which they yearn to belong.
Armenia is Europe. This is a fact, it's not a response to a question.
The collapse of the USSR brought us to a point of economic and political crisis. I remember our discussions in Armenia, before our entry into the Council of Europe. There were many questions about the choice of path to take.
Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality. I'm happy to say I won't be going there because I was among the loudest advocates of the European path.
The choice was clear. Armenians believe in the values of the European enlightenment, of European civilization. The moral, ethical and existential choices that bring individuals and societies to select democracy over other forms of government, rule of law over rule of man, human rights over selective rights those choices have been made.
A people who have lived under subjugation, have seen ethnic cleansing and genocide even before the terms existed, have lived as a minority without rights, now belong to a world where warring neighbors have found that they can accept new borders based on realities on the ground and move on. Europe's nation-states have found that they can transcend borders, without diminishing or ignoring cultural spaces, without expecting historical identities to vanish.
The European Neighborhood Policy brings Armenia back home since Armenia's foreign policy priority is the gradual integration of Armenia into European institutions.
In his presentation, my good friend, Senator Demetro Volcic described in ponderous detail my country's foreign policy priorities. I must admit that he is well aware of them not as a common bystander, but as a caring and thoughtful professional, who has proven to be instrumental in helping to integrate Armenia into the modern European architecture.
The double digit GDP growth, which Armenia achieved each of the last five years, the successful admission into the WTO, the spirit of the free enterprise, the changing political system and society are promising signs that we are on the right track. However, it is too early to say that the European standard is round the corner. It is not as close yet as Europe itself, as Venice, as Verona, as the shared cultural and religious values of the past and present.
To highlight and share those values, we will be launching a two-month long Days of Italy in Armenia, beginning in early October. This project has received the blessing and patronage of President Ciampi, President Kocharian and Governor Galan. The centerpiece of these important events will be an exhibition of the riches from the Isla Armena.
In light of all this, then, the Fondazione Masi has, in bestowing upon me this award, put a great stamp of approval on Armenia, its foreign policy directions, its European orientation, its future.
I thank you
"
This is also essential, from Official Governmental Standpoint on Foreign Policy:
"In the framework of European integration Armenia continues to consistently implement reforms aimed at building democratic institutions and civil society in line with European standards and principles.
Armenia’s inclusion in European Neighbourhood Policy, signing and the beginning of the implementation of the Action Plan in 2006 was a significant progress on the path of European integration. These processes will make it possible for Armenia in the nearest future to move in some areas from the cooperation stage to integration stage with the EU.
European integration for Armenia is not an aim in itself. It will positively influence the social fabric, will help to strengthen democracy, civil society and rule of law. Eventually it will ascertain in Armenian and European perceptions that Armenia is an inalienable part of Europe.
EU has initiated a number of important regional programs (TRACECA, TACIS, INOGATE, Regional Environmental Centre) and their successful implementation will not only serve as a serious impetus for economic development, but will contribute to the atmosphere of mutual trust, stability and cooperation.
European integration includes also a security component and is viewed by Armenia in the context of Euro-Atlantic partnership."
There are many more quotes and backings of this, but I think you get the point. Armenia has also had significant historical contact with Europe during its times of independence (which wasn't many unfortunately) for example the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia.
In order to not include Armenia as a part of Europe you are refuting clear Armenian governmental and EU governmental policy.
And one more thing, why isn't Georgia included? Are they part of Europe but Armenia part of Middle East? It's a really laughable notion and people here should really be consistent and stop contorting facts and history. MosMusy ( talk) 06:59, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
note - Armenia is a part of Europe culturally. Armenia is located in Asia geographically. Armenia should be included in this article. I don't believe there is any contradiction between those statements. The protests/rebellions/revolutions initially started in a Arab and Muslim country, but spread subsequently to countries with more diverse demographics, the best example being Iran, a Muslim but not Arab country. It is my understanding that the protests/rebellions/revolutions in all adjacent countries are interconnected by many concurrent factors, quote "economic decline, unemployment, extreme poverty, and a number of demographic structural factors, such as a large percentage of educated but dissatisfied youth within the population", and also by the boldness one acquires on observing oppressed citizens of another country rise to challenge their government/dictatorship. These events also started in a country located in Africa, but they have spread outside of it, in the region where Africa, Asia, and Europe meet. This article is about all these protests/rebellions/revolutions, and although I feel it could be possibly splitted to the initial events that have a conclusion (Tunisia, Egypt) and the ongoing events, I don't think that it would be wise to do so in an a priori way. Schwarz Ente ( talk) 11:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
CommentRather than fight over a nation's geopolitical association, how about a compromise? Focus the article on events directly attributed to the Tunisian revolution and anything else to a concurrent incidents section. This will make it easier to split later on. -- Blackmane ( talk) 11:15, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
The protests also spread to China, Croatia, and even US why not include them? They were also citing the Arab protests as inspiration for theirs. Look the main problem here is portraying Armenia has a "Middle Eastern" country as the title of the article is clearly "Middle Eastern and North African protests". What this article does thus is put Armenia only under a "Middle Eastern" light and ignore all the other facts regarding Armenia's legitimate association with Europe. It portrays Armenia as being part of the region in all aspects that include countries such as Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, or Syria. This is again, blatantly false and is the wrong connotation for Armenia. Why is Armenia being portrayed in such a biased light? Why is there no mention of Armenia's real association? Let me remind you that many of the protests in Armenia are inspired by EU democracy as EU democratic ideals are often mentioned by the protesters. Heck, they even blast the EU national anthem during each of the protests. So don't tell me they only take their inspiration from the Arab protests. They have cited the Arab protests to advance their cause, but in the end their real inspiration is from Europe as it has always been, which of course is expected. I will ask once again, stop portraying Armenia in this biased light of being only a Middle Eastern country and make some changes, as it is skewing the factual integrity of these events, and skewing the factual evidence of the events in Armenia. And finally, Geography wise Armenia is part of South Caucasus not Middle East. I have said this many, many time but Middle East and South Caucasus are two different entities!! Some times S. Caucasus may be included in "greater Middle East" however the legitimacy of that term is very dubious. I hope people here can see the dishonour this article is doing to the truth. MosMusy ( talk) 16:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country and whoever considers it is wrong. Are you just going to sustain clear falsity throughout Wikipedia? Neither Geographically, culturally, or politically. Stop repeating an inaccuracy that many people that don't know about the region hold. And Let me Guess while Armenia belong with the Arab countries, Georgia belongs with Europe? That a whole load of garbage right there - and is evident of a clear anti-Armenian agenda here.
First off here is another article regarding Armenia's president's views on Armenia and Europe when meeting with top European politicians:
President Serzh Sarkisian asserted Armenia’s European vocation on Wednesday at a meeting with the visiting head of an alliance of Europe’s leading conservative parties. Sarkisian and Wilfried Martens, a former Belgian prime minister leading the European People’s Party (EPP), met in Yerevan to discuss the country’s growing links with the European Union. “We consider ourselves to be Europeans,” Sarkisian was quoted by his press office as telling Martens. “We are seeking to live by the rules of that [European] family, the value system espoused by it, and in this regard, our orientation is very obvious.” According to a statement by the presidential office, Martens agreed that Armenia is “a European country,” pointing to its membership in the Council of Europe and inclusion in the EU’s Eastern Partnership program. Sarkisian assured him that his administration regards the scheme as a “window of opportunity” to bring Armenia closer to Europe and implement “large-scale reforms in various areas” in the process. The Armenian leader’s stated commitment to “European values” is bound to be challenged by his domestic political opponents. They have long accused him of rigging elections and illegally enriching himself. ”
The opposition (ANC) naturally looks to the European structures.
Here's a testimony to the ode to joy, I've seen it on video also.
"Without a doubt Levon is one of the most charismatic, eloquent Armenian speakers I have heard, and in that sense I can see how he can still be able to muster a following. But what ensued after the chorus from Beethoven’s “Ode to Joy”--the last movement of his ninth symphony and apparently Levon’s theme song--died down was nothing I was expecting to hear." MosMusy ( talk) 02:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I propose that a separate article be made for countries that have had protests but are not in the region. Maybe something like "Protests elsewhere during the Arab Spring" where countries like Armenia, Croatia, China, US, etc would be included. Again putting in this article wrongly ties Armenia to the Middle East, especially politically, which is blatantly false. MosMusy ( talk) 02:41, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Armenia should be transferred to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_2010%E2%80%932011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests. I can begin the process if the editors here don't do it. MosMusy ( talk) 03:23, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Something I wrote to Kudzu earlier that should be stressed here: So you are ready to establish the term 'Greater Middle East' which was coined by the Bush Administration has a official Geographical term now? That term has many flaws and the authorities on this subject have never coined that as an official term. So, really it is inappropriate in all cases. The thing is, that the South Caucasus is a unique part of Southwest Asia/Eastern Europe. That is why Armenia is often considered to be part of just the Caucasus as the Caucasus merits its separate Geographical term. There's even a clear geographical divide between the South Caucasus and the Middle East, if you look at the elevations and mountain ranges. So putting Armenia in this article that is clearly titled "Middle East protests" is highly insensitive and is inaccurate. If the title was more broader, not limiting to Middle East, I would not have problem, but since it limits, I have problem, thus I believe Armenia should be placed in the "Impact page" which is a rather developed article. MosMusy (talk) 04:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Can we move Armenia to ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_2010%E2%80%932011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests) already? I have proved here beyond a doubt to what region Armenia is connected to. Given these are political protests, it's even more important to heed the fact that Armenia is 100% politically part of Europe. As I have repeated over and over, the South Caucasus merit their own entity, that is why Armenia is often depicted as a country in the Caucasus. And even geography wise there is a clear difference between S. Caucasus and Middle East. So the connections to Middle East are only present in the fact that Armenia is located in a border region between Western Asia and Eastern Europe (aka Transcaucasus!!) MosMusy ( talk) 04:36, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Why would Armenian protesters compare themselves to Croatia? They don't compare themselves to any country and they pressure the European political structures to put pressure on the current government for more reforms. The quotes that I have shown show clearly with what region Armenian state is connected to and what direction we are moving towards. I have shown you the proof of EU stating that Armenia is a European country by their standards, and honestly that's all we need really. That EU decision is a critical factor here and you cannot deny that. China can become "pro-EU" and do all this and that - but EU will never consider them a part of Europe and nor will their state make the statements regarding historic and cultural connections to Europe, which Armenia has. Do I really need to put evidence that Armenia is firmly part of the Caucasus? The notion that the Caucasus is separate from the Middle East is established fact - you should know that. Read this article about Caucasus if you want to be more clear on it : http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/100270/Caucasus MosMusy ( talk) 05:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I have proven to you several things here:
MosMusy ( talk) 05:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I responded to your source already, and said it doesn't refute the points I've made, and noted to you the nature of that source.
You have to be careful on your distinctions between ME and Caucasus. You seem not to get the sensitive difference between the two. Maybe because you are not from the region. I don't know. But it is crucial for you the understand this difference before talking about where Armenia belongs. (We could have a section in the Impact article regarding the Caucasus countries) MosMusy ( talk) 06:44, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Wow, just wow. Iran is Armenia's largest backer on international stage? Look, we have good relations with Iran, especially economical. So given Europe gets gas and other economic goods from Asia, and is connected to it economically, makes it Asian? That argument is rather weak. Again, you cannot refute the fact that Armenia is politically part of Europe. We do have contacts with rest of the world including middle east, and our strategic partner is Russia, but again having contacts does not equal being politically part of. MosMusy ( talk) 07:07, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Please, everyone, calm down! Schwarz Ente ( talk) 07:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Please read Talk:2010–2011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests#On_the_article's_name,_the_universe,_and_everything Schwarz Ente ( talk) 09:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
As per [18]. It seems he's being forced out by an internal feud with Ayatollah Khamenei rather than bowing to pressure from the streets, so I think it would be improper to attribute this to the protests directly, if at all. How should we handle this, assuming it actually happens (we should be ready)? Suggestions? - Kudzu1 ( talk) 05:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I myself try sometimes to foresee how the future might unfold, but this shouldn't be our guide for editing Wikipedia. I believe, in other words, that we must wait and see. Regards, and take care. Schwarz Ente ( talk) 07:49, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
The map includes the Greek island of Rhodes under Turkey's color, implying it is under their sovereignty, it is not. -- Smart ( talk) 03:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm finding it quite concerning from a content perspective that this article fails to really mention anything of the immigration crisis on the Italian island of Lampedusa. Frankly, this has become a huge humanitarian issue in which hundreds have died, and governments in North Africa and Europe have been scrambling to deal with. Does anyone think we should start an article like 2011 Lampedusa crisis, Lampedusa in the Arab Spring or something to that effect? -- Kuzwa ( talk) 03:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
History is happening.
The problem, as I see it, is that this article does not include in a comprehensive, precise way revolutions that are happening outside the Arab countries and revolutions that are happening outside the Middle East. On the other hand, the article Impact_of_2010–2011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests is talking about a lot of things, but certainly doesn't have the scope of an article about those revolutions, as it includes minor protests and marches in relatively stable countries, censorship in countries that there aren't even minor protests and even resignations of a politician and a businessman/academic. Those are certainly the "impact" of the initial events of the 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests, but the ongoing revolutions are not the impact of the "2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests", they are these "protests". What I feel is causing the problem is that an article like 2011 Global Revolutionary Wave, or 2011 Revolutions, or Second Renaissance, or 2011 The Oppressed Strike Back! is missing. Well, the events started in a few Arab countries and christened "Arab Spring", which I believe should have it's own article, although what exactly will be included is unclear to me. This mass uprising is presently happening in a lot of countries, several of which are not Arab and I see them as part of the same, organic, phenomenon that is spreading. Certainly, all of them should thank the Arab people for the balls they had to say "enough is enough" to their dictators, initiating the whole thing, but it's not as if a hyppothetical US revolution happening as a consequence of this could be called part of the Arab Spring! On the other hand, clamping everything up in a generic "Impact" article makes it seem that, while the Arabs are revolting, in the other countries there are just a couple of guys throwing tomatoes to a policeman, which is certainly not the case right now.
I would like input on this from everyone! Schwarz Ente ( talk) 09:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Per the outcome of the discussion above there is no sense in adding to confusion by keeping these two countries on a map in an article that does not talk about them. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 21:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Take a look at the current sections in the article. Most of them read like so:
On [date x1], [event y1] happened.
On [date x2], [event y2] happened.
On [date x3], [event y3] happened.
This is not what an encyclopaedic article should read like. These are just bullet points. I propose we start re-writing the articles sections, but add guidelines so that it does not become too long ( and it HAS become too long ) or too bullet-pointy.
This is my proposal:
1- A single short ( 2-4 sentences ) paragraph introducing the background/motives: "The protests in [country Z] started in [date x1], fuelled by many years of government corruption and [other reasons]. Protesters demanded [demands 1, 2 and 3]." The reason is that many section dive directly in the events without giving a suitable introductory paragraph.
2- One or two paragraphs detailing the MAIN EVENTS of the protests. The dates of MAJOR protests and their locations, perhaps, or when significant events occurred. All other minor details should left out, since interested readers can simply click on the full articles for that. The reason for this becomes readily apparent when you compare the current section for Egypt with that of Syria.
3- A short final paragraph detailing the outcome/current status of the protests for that region.
If we follow the above, and avoid bullet-points from becoming 75% of the content, then we can have a much more presentable article, shorter in length and more informative than what it is now.
If no one objects, perhaps we can tackle this one section at a time ?! Unflavoured ( talk) 06:59, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
The map in the overview section shows a part internationally recognized as part of Syria (Golan) as if it was part of Israel. If this non neutral pov is not corrected, Im going to remove the map. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 11:28, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
First of I would like everyone to read this article here [24]. And than consider the possible need to include todays' protests by the Palestinians as part of the Arab spring. What does everyone think? EkoGraf ( talk) 02:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Supreme Deliciousness, with whom we had a fruitless discussion about the status of the Golan Heights moved information about that protest to Syria. Which very definitely violates WP:NPOV, but it it's really not worth my time to get embroiled in an argument with someone with such a strong opinion on the Arab-Israeli conflict. But I thought I should put that out there. Let others deal with the issue if they have the energy or the time. -- Quintucket ( talk) 04:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)