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@ Kalu Dada from Thathri Kutty: our source, Rubin 2009 in Encyclopaedia of Islam 3, writes the following:
Later on he [sc., Aqil] lived in Basra and then moved on to Kufa, and eventually to Syria. He arrived there after abandoning his brother ʿAlī, and joined Muʿāwiya b. Abī Sufyān's (r. 41–60/661–80) court in Damascus. He reportedly declared that while ʿAlī was valuable to him for the next world, Muʿāwiya was valuable to him in this world. More specifically, it is related that Muʿāwiya paid his debts for him, which ʿAlī was reluctant to do. Nevertheless, he did not hesitate to defend ʿAlī in the caliph's presence and to criticise the caliph whenever he denounced his brother. The reported debates between ʿAqīl and the caliph revolve around the well-known rivalry between Hāshimīs and Umayyads. Some claim that he joined Muʿāwiya only after ʿAlī's death.
Rubin, Uri (2009). "ʿAqīl b. Abī Ṭālib". In Fleet, Kate; Krämer, Gudrun; Matringe, Denis; Nawas, John; Rowson, Everett (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam, Three. doi: 10.1163/1573-3912_ei3_COM_23073.
This is paraphrased in our article as follows (all sourced to Rubin 2009):
After the victory of the Muslims and the death of Muhammad in 632, Aqil lived in the military encampments of Kufa and Basra for a while, supporting his brother Ali (who ruled from Medina as the fourth caliph, 656 – 661). However, later he abandoned Ali and moved to Syria, joining the court of the first Umayyad caliph Mu'awiya I ( r. 661–680). According to later tradition, Aqil's change of heart was motivated by the fact that Mu'awiya was more willing than Ali to pay his debts. Whereas he did give up to the Hashimite claims to the caliphate and politically supported the rival claim by the Umayyads, he always defended his brother Ali against any criticism leveled against him at Mu'awiya's court.
This in turn was summarized in the lead as follows:
During the rivalry between his brother Ali (who reigned as the fourth caliph from 656 until his death in 661) and Mu'awiya (the first Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680), he chose the side of the latter.
You removed the summary in the lead, though you did not remove the paragraph in the body of the article, saying that there is difference between how it is inscribed in lead and in the biography section.
Since the lead is supposed to summarize the body of the article, the summary should be changed rather than outright removed. How do you suggest we summarize this paragraph in the lead? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 15:23, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
Ali refused to give him money from the fay revenue but is said to have offered him money from his personal estate in Yanbu. Aqil then left for Damascus, and was given a large sum of money by Muawiya. This was probably before the battle of Siffin. It is not known whether Muawiya gave him this money because he now was on the pension register of Syria, or simply as a bribe. As noted by Lammens one of Aqil's wives was Mu'awiya's aunt. The reports about his relations with Mu'awiya are anecdotal and describe him as treating the Umayyad and his prominent companions with exceeding disdain. There is no sound evidence that he ever backed Mu'awiya against his brother Ali. Veccia-Vaglieri's suggestion that 'the estrangement between the two brothers probably had political causes' is quite unfounded.
— Madelung, Wilferd (1997). The Succession to Muhammad: A Study of the Early Caliphate. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-56181-7. p. 264.
After the victory of the Muslims and the death of Muhammad in 632, Aqil lived in the military encampments of Kufa and Basra for a while, supporting his brother Ali (who ruled from Medina as the fourth caliph, 656 – 661). [1] However, later he may have abandoned Ali, as he moved to Syria in order to join the court of the first Umayyad caliph Mu'awiya I ( r. 661–680). [2] According to later tradition, Aqil's change of heart was motivated by the fact that Mu'awiya was more willing than Ali to pay his debts. [3] While he may have given up the Hashimite claims to the caliphate and politically supported the rival claim of the Umayyads instead, [4] he always defended his brother Ali against any criticism leveled against him at Mu'awiya's court. [5]
During the rivalry between his brother Ali (who reigned as the fourth caliph from 656 until his death in 661) and Mu'awiya (the first Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680) Aqil first chose the side of his brother, but later may have deserted him in favor of Mu'awiya.
During the rivalry between his brother Ali (who reigned as the fourth caliph from 656 until his death in 661) and Mu'awiya (the first Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680) Aqil first chose the side of his brother, but later may have deserted him in favor of Mu'awiya when the latter offered financial incentives to Aqil.
During the rivalry between his brother Ali (who reigned as the fourth caliph from 656 until his death in 661) and Mu'awiya (the first Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680) Aqil first chose the side of his brother, but later may have deserted him in favor of Mu'awiya when Ali refused his request for public funds.
References
@ ApaugasmaThis individual claims that “Saamale” claim ancestry to Aqil, this is false, as they are 100 percent of east african origin however this is what they have claimed in british somaliland book and many others https://bakipress.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/the-ethnic-origin-of-the-somali-people-and-clan-system/ Beni Dawud ( talk) 20:38, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
https://postimg.cc/9DBMnPJT@ Apaugasma Beni Dawud ( talk) 20:41, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Most notably, only one of the Somali tribes traces its ancestry to Aqil ibn Abi Talib, and that is the Darod. Their forefather is Dau’d bin Ismail bin Ibrahim Al Jabarti Al Aqeeli. Darod’s father was an exiled Sufi sheikh who escaped the northern Somali coast and climbed a tree. The natives, the Dir and Hawiye tribes, looked up and saw him, confused by this. Later, Darod married into the Dir tribe, marking the birth of Al Darodi, which is one of the major Somali tribes.
Now, the validity is up to you, as the Aqeel Hashimite Council has declared Darod a descendant of Aqeel. Additionally, in the 10th century, Al Masudi wrote down that Darod is a modified version of Dau’d.
References:
https://aqeleyoon.wordpress.com/ https://archive.org/details/olomnasb_ymail_2_201611/page/n345/mode/1up Beni Dawud ( talk) 20:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
@ Beni Dawud: this revision of the 'Claims of ancestry by Somali clans' section is based on several reliable sources, including three books by Ioan Lewis, whom our own article describes as "the foremost scholar on Somali history and culture". For a convenient overview of the most important points, see Lewis 1961, pp. 11-12 on Google Books.
The new revision ( diff) is based solely on one source, Yusuf ibn Abd Allah Jamal al-Layl's al-Shajara al-zakiyya fi ansab Bani Hashim ('The Righteous Tree in the Lineage of the Banu Hashim'). But who is Yusuf ibn Abd Allah Jamal al-Layl? Given that his book was published in 2012 in Riyadh, and given the title, I'm assuming that he is a Saudi expert in traditional Arab genealogy?
Wikipedia neutrally represent the points of view given by reliable sources. Traditional Arab genealogy builds on a non-academic frame of reference in which centuries-old sources are taken at face value, and in which supposed lineages are constructed and reconstructed along changing political, economic, and diplomatic lines. As such, works on traditional Arab genealogy are not considered reliable on Wikipedia, except in some cases as a primary source. Instead, Wikipedia relies on the analysis and interpretation found in academic sources, which have been vetted by the scholarly community. Please see WP:SCHOLARSHIP.
If you are not familiar with academic scholarship, it may be hard to find appropriate sources to use on Wikipedia. I suggest you start by reading Lewis' books, such as Lewis 1961, Lewis 1968 and Lewis 1994. From there, you will slowly become familiar with other reliable sources as cited by Lewis. Please do not add anything to Wikipedia unless you have read it in such a reliable source. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 22:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
List of sources
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---|
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Ultimately all Somali genealogies go back to Arabian origins[...]it is their proud pretensions to noble Arabian origins which unite all the Somali clans and lineages into one vast genealogical system. In this genealogy, which is shown below,[showing Aqil ibn Abi Talib at the head of the tree]every clan family has a place and with the exception of the Daarrood all are linked agnatically.
Les Samaale disent ainsi descendre de la tribu mecquoise de Quraysh par l'intermédiaire de Hill, fils de Mohamed Yow, fils de Mohamed 'Abdurahman, fils de 'Aqîl, fils de Abu Tâlib, fils de 'Abd al Muttalib, le grand-père du Prophète Mahomet.
scholars have perceived a homogenous nation consisting of two genealogical groups, Sab and Samale, both descendants of Aqil ibn Abi Talibconfirming Lewis' view!), we have to follow whatever scholars such as Lewis, Bader or Mukhtar write, because Wikipedia follows what recognized experts write even if we as Wikipedia editors personally believe that such experts are wrong. For more context on this, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: it's all about what the sources write.
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
@ Kalu Dada from Thathri Kutty: our source, Rubin 2009 in Encyclopaedia of Islam 3, writes the following:
Later on he [sc., Aqil] lived in Basra and then moved on to Kufa, and eventually to Syria. He arrived there after abandoning his brother ʿAlī, and joined Muʿāwiya b. Abī Sufyān's (r. 41–60/661–80) court in Damascus. He reportedly declared that while ʿAlī was valuable to him for the next world, Muʿāwiya was valuable to him in this world. More specifically, it is related that Muʿāwiya paid his debts for him, which ʿAlī was reluctant to do. Nevertheless, he did not hesitate to defend ʿAlī in the caliph's presence and to criticise the caliph whenever he denounced his brother. The reported debates between ʿAqīl and the caliph revolve around the well-known rivalry between Hāshimīs and Umayyads. Some claim that he joined Muʿāwiya only after ʿAlī's death.
Rubin, Uri (2009). "ʿAqīl b. Abī Ṭālib". In Fleet, Kate; Krämer, Gudrun; Matringe, Denis; Nawas, John; Rowson, Everett (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam, Three. doi: 10.1163/1573-3912_ei3_COM_23073.
This is paraphrased in our article as follows (all sourced to Rubin 2009):
After the victory of the Muslims and the death of Muhammad in 632, Aqil lived in the military encampments of Kufa and Basra for a while, supporting his brother Ali (who ruled from Medina as the fourth caliph, 656 – 661). However, later he abandoned Ali and moved to Syria, joining the court of the first Umayyad caliph Mu'awiya I ( r. 661–680). According to later tradition, Aqil's change of heart was motivated by the fact that Mu'awiya was more willing than Ali to pay his debts. Whereas he did give up to the Hashimite claims to the caliphate and politically supported the rival claim by the Umayyads, he always defended his brother Ali against any criticism leveled against him at Mu'awiya's court.
This in turn was summarized in the lead as follows:
During the rivalry between his brother Ali (who reigned as the fourth caliph from 656 until his death in 661) and Mu'awiya (the first Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680), he chose the side of the latter.
You removed the summary in the lead, though you did not remove the paragraph in the body of the article, saying that there is difference between how it is inscribed in lead and in the biography section.
Since the lead is supposed to summarize the body of the article, the summary should be changed rather than outright removed. How do you suggest we summarize this paragraph in the lead? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 15:23, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
Ali refused to give him money from the fay revenue but is said to have offered him money from his personal estate in Yanbu. Aqil then left for Damascus, and was given a large sum of money by Muawiya. This was probably before the battle of Siffin. It is not known whether Muawiya gave him this money because he now was on the pension register of Syria, or simply as a bribe. As noted by Lammens one of Aqil's wives was Mu'awiya's aunt. The reports about his relations with Mu'awiya are anecdotal and describe him as treating the Umayyad and his prominent companions with exceeding disdain. There is no sound evidence that he ever backed Mu'awiya against his brother Ali. Veccia-Vaglieri's suggestion that 'the estrangement between the two brothers probably had political causes' is quite unfounded.
— Madelung, Wilferd (1997). The Succession to Muhammad: A Study of the Early Caliphate. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-56181-7. p. 264.
After the victory of the Muslims and the death of Muhammad in 632, Aqil lived in the military encampments of Kufa and Basra for a while, supporting his brother Ali (who ruled from Medina as the fourth caliph, 656 – 661). [1] However, later he may have abandoned Ali, as he moved to Syria in order to join the court of the first Umayyad caliph Mu'awiya I ( r. 661–680). [2] According to later tradition, Aqil's change of heart was motivated by the fact that Mu'awiya was more willing than Ali to pay his debts. [3] While he may have given up the Hashimite claims to the caliphate and politically supported the rival claim of the Umayyads instead, [4] he always defended his brother Ali against any criticism leveled against him at Mu'awiya's court. [5]
During the rivalry between his brother Ali (who reigned as the fourth caliph from 656 until his death in 661) and Mu'awiya (the first Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680) Aqil first chose the side of his brother, but later may have deserted him in favor of Mu'awiya.
During the rivalry between his brother Ali (who reigned as the fourth caliph from 656 until his death in 661) and Mu'awiya (the first Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680) Aqil first chose the side of his brother, but later may have deserted him in favor of Mu'awiya when the latter offered financial incentives to Aqil.
During the rivalry between his brother Ali (who reigned as the fourth caliph from 656 until his death in 661) and Mu'awiya (the first Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680) Aqil first chose the side of his brother, but later may have deserted him in favor of Mu'awiya when Ali refused his request for public funds.
References
@ ApaugasmaThis individual claims that “Saamale” claim ancestry to Aqil, this is false, as they are 100 percent of east african origin however this is what they have claimed in british somaliland book and many others https://bakipress.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/the-ethnic-origin-of-the-somali-people-and-clan-system/ Beni Dawud ( talk) 20:38, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
https://postimg.cc/9DBMnPJT@ Apaugasma Beni Dawud ( talk) 20:41, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Most notably, only one of the Somali tribes traces its ancestry to Aqil ibn Abi Talib, and that is the Darod. Their forefather is Dau’d bin Ismail bin Ibrahim Al Jabarti Al Aqeeli. Darod’s father was an exiled Sufi sheikh who escaped the northern Somali coast and climbed a tree. The natives, the Dir and Hawiye tribes, looked up and saw him, confused by this. Later, Darod married into the Dir tribe, marking the birth of Al Darodi, which is one of the major Somali tribes.
Now, the validity is up to you, as the Aqeel Hashimite Council has declared Darod a descendant of Aqeel. Additionally, in the 10th century, Al Masudi wrote down that Darod is a modified version of Dau’d.
References:
https://aqeleyoon.wordpress.com/ https://archive.org/details/olomnasb_ymail_2_201611/page/n345/mode/1up Beni Dawud ( talk) 20:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
@ Beni Dawud: this revision of the 'Claims of ancestry by Somali clans' section is based on several reliable sources, including three books by Ioan Lewis, whom our own article describes as "the foremost scholar on Somali history and culture". For a convenient overview of the most important points, see Lewis 1961, pp. 11-12 on Google Books.
The new revision ( diff) is based solely on one source, Yusuf ibn Abd Allah Jamal al-Layl's al-Shajara al-zakiyya fi ansab Bani Hashim ('The Righteous Tree in the Lineage of the Banu Hashim'). But who is Yusuf ibn Abd Allah Jamal al-Layl? Given that his book was published in 2012 in Riyadh, and given the title, I'm assuming that he is a Saudi expert in traditional Arab genealogy?
Wikipedia neutrally represent the points of view given by reliable sources. Traditional Arab genealogy builds on a non-academic frame of reference in which centuries-old sources are taken at face value, and in which supposed lineages are constructed and reconstructed along changing political, economic, and diplomatic lines. As such, works on traditional Arab genealogy are not considered reliable on Wikipedia, except in some cases as a primary source. Instead, Wikipedia relies on the analysis and interpretation found in academic sources, which have been vetted by the scholarly community. Please see WP:SCHOLARSHIP.
If you are not familiar with academic scholarship, it may be hard to find appropriate sources to use on Wikipedia. I suggest you start by reading Lewis' books, such as Lewis 1961, Lewis 1968 and Lewis 1994. From there, you will slowly become familiar with other reliable sources as cited by Lewis. Please do not add anything to Wikipedia unless you have read it in such a reliable source. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 22:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
List of sources
|
---|
|
Ultimately all Somali genealogies go back to Arabian origins[...]it is their proud pretensions to noble Arabian origins which unite all the Somali clans and lineages into one vast genealogical system. In this genealogy, which is shown below,[showing Aqil ibn Abi Talib at the head of the tree]every clan family has a place and with the exception of the Daarrood all are linked agnatically.
Les Samaale disent ainsi descendre de la tribu mecquoise de Quraysh par l'intermédiaire de Hill, fils de Mohamed Yow, fils de Mohamed 'Abdurahman, fils de 'Aqîl, fils de Abu Tâlib, fils de 'Abd al Muttalib, le grand-père du Prophète Mahomet.
scholars have perceived a homogenous nation consisting of two genealogical groups, Sab and Samale, both descendants of Aqil ibn Abi Talibconfirming Lewis' view!), we have to follow whatever scholars such as Lewis, Bader or Mukhtar write, because Wikipedia follows what recognized experts write even if we as Wikipedia editors personally believe that such experts are wrong. For more context on this, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: it's all about what the sources write.