![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I don't think the iPod can play MP3's (for now) it uses a different file format.
What about the boycott of Apple due to their suit of microsoft by the FSF?
I'm not 100% on this, but in regards to the music store, don't the people just own a non-time-expiring license to use the music for personal use? I believe there is a difference.
Should "Software made by Apple" be renamed to something like "Apple Branded software" or something as there are several products they now "own" but do not actively make. e.g. Logic which is still made by e-Magic, even though they were bought out by Apple. You could say that the Mac OS is made in part by Microsoft, due to the fact that Microsoft own a large chunk of Apple Computer. Just my thoughts... Neolux 07:19, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Deleted "Early machines included a module which used marzipan as the main insulating material on the CPU resistors. The first users of the machines would often make the lab smell of fragrant almonds but the performance boost more than made up for the odour." Ha ha. GRAHAMUK 06:04, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Personally, I feel this page is getting scrappy - it reads like it was written by committee (which of course, it was). The facts are mostly straight, but it jumps around and isn't a coherent story or style. There is also a lot of extraneous and unnecessary detail - I've removed one or two glaring bits (e.g. the fact that IBM is known as Big Blue doesn't need to be mentioned here, it's not relevant to Apple, and can go on the IBM page). I suppose this is the problem with WP in general - everyone has their own favourite factoid they like to contribute but after a while it becomes a bit crufty. I might attempt a rewrite at some point if nobody minds and I get the time GRAHAMUK 06:18, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Weren't the two Steves somehow connected to the hit Atari arcade game, Breakout? And didn't Jobs originally approach Atari (who he was working for at the time) for funding to start Apple? I'd add these facts myself, but I am unsure of the details. Dan Mazurowski 01:48 CDT, 17-Aug-2003
The Apple Computer entry, the Steve Jobs entry, and the Steve Wozniak entry have conflicting views on the selling the Apple I.
so which is correct, and what should be done?
-anon
The article has a big problem: there's a large chronological gap between "The Macintosh" and "Recent Years". I hardly think the paragraph at the beginning of "Recent Years" that attempts to fill in the years between '84 and '97 is representative of the company's activities in those 14 years:
It's pretty pitiful, really. The iTMS gets two whole paragraphs, yet the Power Mac is not mentioned once! Would someone please fill in that huge gaping hole?
So this on a slashdot post and thought it was hilarious:
Removed "*[http://www.mammals.org/ mammals.org is also owned by Apple]" from external links. It's interesting but fairly pointless. See also www.iphone.org and www.macmate.com (domains that don't seem to serve any purpose)
How do I contest the NEUTRALITY of the Apple Computer entry in Wikipedia? I find it to be non-neutral in that it subtly advocates this niche platform
"The Macintosh was and continues to be a success for Apple, but not as big a success as it could have been." -- is an example of a non-neutral opinion. A neutral opinion is "Sales of Apple computers were xxx this last quarter, comprising 2.9% of the total PC marketplace."
"Although the first version of Windows was technologically inferior to the Mac, " is a NON-NEUTRAL opinion. You could say "A survey of dentists show that they believe the orginal Mac-OS to be superior to Windows", but just squirting out this false fact with no references shows evidence of bias.
maybe you guys could do a little fact checking and filling out by checking out linzmayer's apple confidential 2.0. i have a copy of the book and i'd be willing to do it, but it would take forever and i suck at consistent editing :p Applegoddess 04:53, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The text added was - "Wozniak raised money to start his new comnpany by selling devices used to steal services from the telphone company." If that is a fact it needs to be stated factually and neutrally. - Taxman 15:03, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
Of course it's a fact. Why do you want to hide the truth from the public? Are you on Apple's payroll?
"This rivalry [Cocoa vs Carbon] is seen as counterproductive and unnecessary." is a NON-NEUTRAL statement! Who sees it as unnecessary? As a loyal Apple Fan, I think it's critical that the correct side wins. The rivalry *may* be necessary, it may not be. A Neutral Statement would be "Joe Blow, director of technology for Apple Computer sees this rivalry as counterproductive and unnecessary, but Mary Shmoe feels it's a healthy dialog." If you can't find SOURCES or EXAMPLES, DROP IT! WHO sees it
I just reverted this change: "This rivalry is seen as counterproductive and unnecessary by some Apple fundamentalists. However, deveoplers with Unix or NeXT background see the complete adoption of Cocoa as a requirement for Apple's survival." If this was an attempt to eliminate POV, it achieved just the opposite. "Fundamentalist" is a very loaded word. I am not an Apple fundamentalist (whatever that is), but I do believe that the rivalry is counterproductive. Furthermore, the "complete adoption" of Cocoa is unlikely to be necessary for the platform's survival, and I know many NeXT/Unix developers who don't subscribe to that view either. In fact since most of the reason for buying a Mac have largely to do with key apps such as Photoshop, Illustrator, etc etc, which are all Carbon apps, "complete adoption" of Cocoa is likely to prove suicidal. I mean, duh. In fact this is exactly the sort of rivalry I am talking about -I hadn't realised it had spilt out into the wider world of mindless zealotry! Get this straight: Carbon and Cocoa are COMPLEMENTARY technologies, BOTH necessary for the platform's survival. Cocoa is very cool, but not very widely supported "out there". Carbon is not as cool by a long shot, but it's what 90% of all Mac applications that matter are currently written in. It's not a question of one winning out over the other, it's a question of Apple doing what is right to keep OS X viable. As long as this sort of perception and rivalry exists WITHIN Apple (I don't care about outside) then there is energy being wasted on stuff that is not helping to achieve this end. Incidentally it's interesting that the Windows world is starting to go through a similar agony, with the Win32 APIs vs .NET, so it's part of a larger trend. Graham 01:10, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed the npov notice last week (see comment above), but it was put back by an anonymous user with few other contributions on his list without any justification. Please describe why you think the article is POVy, if you want to put the notice on the page. — David Remahl 11:47, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Apple have been criticised for their vertically integrated business model, which runs against the grain of much of the 'received wisdom' of economists, particularly for the computer industry.
Somebody changed the above so that the word 'received' was removed, presumably because they feel that to say this is POV. The trouble is that it renders the sense of the sentence completely different. By received wisdom I mean the bulk of text books and other education that students of economics receive. It's not POV to say that, that's how economists learn their stuff! These text books almost invariably suggest that vertical integration is a bad model for the computer industry. Yet, Apple turn a profit. So the received wisdom isn't always infallible, which is my point. If the word 'received' is removed, this suggests that economists are incontrovertably wise, without question. THAT is seriously POV, and demonstrably false. Graham 23:31, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
We have way too many external links in this article. We could throw out one third and move one third to other articles. Here they are, with my suggestions: ✏ Sverdrup 17:23, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What do you think? ✏ Sverdrup 17:23, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
During the visit at PARC, they were also shown networking. Doesn't that mean that Apple's networking is a result of the PARC researchers?
I think some mention of the 1984 ad might be in order.
This article seems to have deteriorated within the past few months. It used to have a lot of context, and was pretty good. Currently, the article mostly comprises of lists, and not much context/pictures. It also deserves a better lead, or at least two lengthly paragraphs. A summarized version of the History of Apple Computer article should be included in the History section. This article should be up to FA standard, but unfortunately it's not, let's change that. There are much better company articles on Wikipedia, for example see Microsoft or IBM as typical examples. Putting this article up for peer review might help, or maybe the Article Improvement Drive to get it ready for the Featured Article status that it deserves! — Wackymacs 18:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
The article says that: " CEO of Apple Computer also stated during his keynote address at the World Wide Developers Conference 2005, that the use of Mac OS X will continue well into the next two decades." I was not able to remember that sentence, to I reviewed the video. What Steve Jobs actually said was: "[OS X] has set Apple up for the next 20 years" (ca. 19:50), and I don't think the article reflects this quote accurately
I have never used an Apple before. One thing that has always confused me is Apple's mouse. A typical mouse has one button to Select items and the other button to access the Options. Well how in the world do I "right-click" if Apple's mouse only has one button? Do Apple operating systems even have a "right-click" options menu? I would appreciate any help. -- Secret Agent Man 01:22, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
"Following September 11, 2001, Apple Computer began firing and facilitating the racially motivated deportation of dozens of segregated ethnic minorities, including individuals who had developed Mac OS X. Shortly thereafter, several Mac OS X-related projects were handed over to unqualified employees with no relevant Computer Science, or otherwise technical qualifications. Mac OS X has since changed very little, while tens of thousands of new bugs have been reported on it. OS X remains a historical remnant of Apple Computer's purchase of NeXT, being replaced by iPod as Apple's new hope for survival."
Is there a source on this? The last sentance in particular is factually inaccurate, there ahve been Substantial OS X changes (core video/audio, Quartz Extreme, etc) since release..
E1ven 03:03, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
The following part of a paragraph is a bit POV, I believe. It is also factually wrong in a way, since customers only own a copy, and they aren't even allowed to do what they feel like with the copy without violating the EULA:
David Remahl 01:41, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Could add a section of past CEOs to the Apple as a Corporation section - since there are just 6, to me it makes sense to include their names instead of having a special page just for that. What do you think? Spangineer 18:00, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
This has been moved here from user's talk page where it was inappropriate. The gist is that a revertion of [anon user]'s post took place. I agreed with the reversion, but the anon poster did not, not unnaturally.
Well I was surprised to see what I wrote was completely removed because someone thought it was POV. What should I do? Put it back in because I think what YOU did was because of your POV? Also I was surprised to see that you didnt find anything worth salvaging.
What I wrote was true: Apple uses top quality hardware, and used to use the best standards (like SCSI). But you seem to think that's not something to mention. I also noted that Apple's system stability was due to the quality of the hardware and Apple's quality assurance. You slashed that out too.
And especially you deleted the part about apple's misleading marketing campaigns, which are true. http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1042_3-5180251.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/technology/3797261.stm And the exaggerations of the thruth (which are already pointed in the article earlier, but RDF'd already). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field
And about the claims of optimized drivers, many sites discuss this, among others: http://spl.haxial.net/apple-powermac-G5/
I hope you will reconsider and show the community that you are not a fascist apple zealot.
[post unsigned]
This ignores the history of the personal computer, where there were many competing systems and standards long before it gelled into the 2 camps of today. In addition, many would argue that PCs and Macs were more compatible than this would suggest - many file formats, disks, etc were interchangeable even in the early days.
Pure opinion. Comparisons such as "better" have no place in an encyclopedia.
If this is a fact, it would be very hard to prove (especially the reliability claim). Since most disk mechanisms are mechanically identical whether IDE or SCSI, and reliability is generally a mechanical issue, I doubt this claim is even true. In addition, the level of technical detail you go into here and in other places is not warranted in a general article about Appel Computer (the company).
Again, using the term "best" is pure POV. RS-422 is better than what? In what way? Can you quantify it?
How do you know this is a fact? Do you have access to Apple's inventory and purchasing records? Also, again, how would you quantify it?
Apart from being speculation and opinion, this sentence is not grammatical.
Possibly true, but not interesting in the context of an encyclopedia article.
This was also an issue with Macs and most other computer systems before quite recently. However the main problem with this para (I've omitted the rest of it for brevity) is that it comes across as a piece of typical propaganda - or more crudely Mac fanboyism. As such it has no place in an encyclopedia.
POV.
Can you prove this with evidence? Do you have access to manufacturers' internal release policy documents? Or are you simply spouting rubbish based on your own prejudices? The rest of that para (omitted) is just rambling opinion.
"better" is a purely subjective notion, and hence POV. If it's a fact, it must be quantifiable. Wikipedia is not a place for the deconstruction of advertisements and marketing campaigns. You can state the facts, you cannot offer your own interpretation, etc. You can say "Apple's marketing campaign for the G5, claiming it was "the world's fastest personal computer" was criticised by the UK's Advertising Standards Authority as "misleading". Those are the facts, neutrally reported, and they are reported in this manner elsewhere within WP.
Well, you said it. Again, the wording of this is just not encyclopedic. There could be the basis here for an article such as "PC vs. Mac fanboyism", but to be honest it's all been covered elsewhere at great length. Try Operating system advocacy, Comparison of operating systems, and so on - all of these stick to the facts.
The main issue here is not whether or not I agree with what you're saying - in large part I do. The issue is whether your opinions count as a worthwhile contribution to an encyclopedia. We are concerned only with the facts. Reported facts can include verifyable quotations of others' opinions - like the ASA's above, but they should not be opinions in and of themselves. When you've understood the difference, your points might find a home. However, there are already many many articles on WP about PCs and Macs with probably all of this ground already covered. Graham 02:28, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well I'm sorry if my wording doesn't meet an encyclopedic level (whatever that level must be), as I'm not a native english speaker so my words may not be ellegant but I find them to be understandable enough.
I meant, generic low-grade PCs. What's wrong with "better"? That's YOUR opinion.
I take it for granted that you don't know ANYTHING about high-end hardware. For example, and I'm not going to spend my time googling it for you, SCSI drives are NOT "mechanically identical" to IDE drives. IDE drives are designed for quiet, self-cooling operation. In contrast, SCSI drives are designed without noise levels in mind, and most need extra cooling, because they are designed for high performance and high reliability. And about reliability, for some reason SCSI drives have a MTBF (mean time between failures) of 1.000.000 - 1.500.000 hours, while IDE drives have MTBFs of about 150.000 hours. SCSI drives are also prepared for a higher duty cycle (40 - 50%_ than IDEs (20%). How do you measure all that? Get some drives, put them on an array and let them chunk away for a few days. You'll find more dead IDE drives (10 times more, in average).
I'm not a Mac fanboy. I don't even own one!
RS-422 (Apple standard serial port) is better than RS-232 (PC standard serial port). It's better in the sense of speed (10Mbits/sec vs. 115200bps) and cable length (15m vs 1200m). But you didn't know that, did you?
I was actually going to answer to every single of your points but really, it's a waste of time. I don't care anymore, do whatever you want with the article. I'm really tired to answer to every single smartass who thinks he's better than everyone else and actually it's just talking shit. As far as I know my points are as valid as yours. Wait. They are more valid, because mine are not based 100% in opinions. Most of my points are verifiable while yours are just opinions. Here's an article for you to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_standards As in "I THINK AN ARTICLE BASED ON WHAT I THINK ARE JUST OPINIONS DOESN'T BELONG IN AN ENCYCLOPEDIA"
[post unsigned]
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I don't think the iPod can play MP3's (for now) it uses a different file format.
What about the boycott of Apple due to their suit of microsoft by the FSF?
I'm not 100% on this, but in regards to the music store, don't the people just own a non-time-expiring license to use the music for personal use? I believe there is a difference.
Should "Software made by Apple" be renamed to something like "Apple Branded software" or something as there are several products they now "own" but do not actively make. e.g. Logic which is still made by e-Magic, even though they were bought out by Apple. You could say that the Mac OS is made in part by Microsoft, due to the fact that Microsoft own a large chunk of Apple Computer. Just my thoughts... Neolux 07:19, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Deleted "Early machines included a module which used marzipan as the main insulating material on the CPU resistors. The first users of the machines would often make the lab smell of fragrant almonds but the performance boost more than made up for the odour." Ha ha. GRAHAMUK 06:04, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Personally, I feel this page is getting scrappy - it reads like it was written by committee (which of course, it was). The facts are mostly straight, but it jumps around and isn't a coherent story or style. There is also a lot of extraneous and unnecessary detail - I've removed one or two glaring bits (e.g. the fact that IBM is known as Big Blue doesn't need to be mentioned here, it's not relevant to Apple, and can go on the IBM page). I suppose this is the problem with WP in general - everyone has their own favourite factoid they like to contribute but after a while it becomes a bit crufty. I might attempt a rewrite at some point if nobody minds and I get the time GRAHAMUK 06:18, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Weren't the two Steves somehow connected to the hit Atari arcade game, Breakout? And didn't Jobs originally approach Atari (who he was working for at the time) for funding to start Apple? I'd add these facts myself, but I am unsure of the details. Dan Mazurowski 01:48 CDT, 17-Aug-2003
The Apple Computer entry, the Steve Jobs entry, and the Steve Wozniak entry have conflicting views on the selling the Apple I.
so which is correct, and what should be done?
-anon
The article has a big problem: there's a large chronological gap between "The Macintosh" and "Recent Years". I hardly think the paragraph at the beginning of "Recent Years" that attempts to fill in the years between '84 and '97 is representative of the company's activities in those 14 years:
It's pretty pitiful, really. The iTMS gets two whole paragraphs, yet the Power Mac is not mentioned once! Would someone please fill in that huge gaping hole?
So this on a slashdot post and thought it was hilarious:
Removed "*[http://www.mammals.org/ mammals.org is also owned by Apple]" from external links. It's interesting but fairly pointless. See also www.iphone.org and www.macmate.com (domains that don't seem to serve any purpose)
How do I contest the NEUTRALITY of the Apple Computer entry in Wikipedia? I find it to be non-neutral in that it subtly advocates this niche platform
"The Macintosh was and continues to be a success for Apple, but not as big a success as it could have been." -- is an example of a non-neutral opinion. A neutral opinion is "Sales of Apple computers were xxx this last quarter, comprising 2.9% of the total PC marketplace."
"Although the first version of Windows was technologically inferior to the Mac, " is a NON-NEUTRAL opinion. You could say "A survey of dentists show that they believe the orginal Mac-OS to be superior to Windows", but just squirting out this false fact with no references shows evidence of bias.
maybe you guys could do a little fact checking and filling out by checking out linzmayer's apple confidential 2.0. i have a copy of the book and i'd be willing to do it, but it would take forever and i suck at consistent editing :p Applegoddess 04:53, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The text added was - "Wozniak raised money to start his new comnpany by selling devices used to steal services from the telphone company." If that is a fact it needs to be stated factually and neutrally. - Taxman 15:03, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
Of course it's a fact. Why do you want to hide the truth from the public? Are you on Apple's payroll?
"This rivalry [Cocoa vs Carbon] is seen as counterproductive and unnecessary." is a NON-NEUTRAL statement! Who sees it as unnecessary? As a loyal Apple Fan, I think it's critical that the correct side wins. The rivalry *may* be necessary, it may not be. A Neutral Statement would be "Joe Blow, director of technology for Apple Computer sees this rivalry as counterproductive and unnecessary, but Mary Shmoe feels it's a healthy dialog." If you can't find SOURCES or EXAMPLES, DROP IT! WHO sees it
I just reverted this change: "This rivalry is seen as counterproductive and unnecessary by some Apple fundamentalists. However, deveoplers with Unix or NeXT background see the complete adoption of Cocoa as a requirement for Apple's survival." If this was an attempt to eliminate POV, it achieved just the opposite. "Fundamentalist" is a very loaded word. I am not an Apple fundamentalist (whatever that is), but I do believe that the rivalry is counterproductive. Furthermore, the "complete adoption" of Cocoa is unlikely to be necessary for the platform's survival, and I know many NeXT/Unix developers who don't subscribe to that view either. In fact since most of the reason for buying a Mac have largely to do with key apps such as Photoshop, Illustrator, etc etc, which are all Carbon apps, "complete adoption" of Cocoa is likely to prove suicidal. I mean, duh. In fact this is exactly the sort of rivalry I am talking about -I hadn't realised it had spilt out into the wider world of mindless zealotry! Get this straight: Carbon and Cocoa are COMPLEMENTARY technologies, BOTH necessary for the platform's survival. Cocoa is very cool, but not very widely supported "out there". Carbon is not as cool by a long shot, but it's what 90% of all Mac applications that matter are currently written in. It's not a question of one winning out over the other, it's a question of Apple doing what is right to keep OS X viable. As long as this sort of perception and rivalry exists WITHIN Apple (I don't care about outside) then there is energy being wasted on stuff that is not helping to achieve this end. Incidentally it's interesting that the Windows world is starting to go through a similar agony, with the Win32 APIs vs .NET, so it's part of a larger trend. Graham 01:10, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed the npov notice last week (see comment above), but it was put back by an anonymous user with few other contributions on his list without any justification. Please describe why you think the article is POVy, if you want to put the notice on the page. — David Remahl 11:47, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Apple have been criticised for their vertically integrated business model, which runs against the grain of much of the 'received wisdom' of economists, particularly for the computer industry.
Somebody changed the above so that the word 'received' was removed, presumably because they feel that to say this is POV. The trouble is that it renders the sense of the sentence completely different. By received wisdom I mean the bulk of text books and other education that students of economics receive. It's not POV to say that, that's how economists learn their stuff! These text books almost invariably suggest that vertical integration is a bad model for the computer industry. Yet, Apple turn a profit. So the received wisdom isn't always infallible, which is my point. If the word 'received' is removed, this suggests that economists are incontrovertably wise, without question. THAT is seriously POV, and demonstrably false. Graham 23:31, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
We have way too many external links in this article. We could throw out one third and move one third to other articles. Here they are, with my suggestions: ✏ Sverdrup 17:23, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What do you think? ✏ Sverdrup 17:23, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
During the visit at PARC, they were also shown networking. Doesn't that mean that Apple's networking is a result of the PARC researchers?
I think some mention of the 1984 ad might be in order.
This article seems to have deteriorated within the past few months. It used to have a lot of context, and was pretty good. Currently, the article mostly comprises of lists, and not much context/pictures. It also deserves a better lead, or at least two lengthly paragraphs. A summarized version of the History of Apple Computer article should be included in the History section. This article should be up to FA standard, but unfortunately it's not, let's change that. There are much better company articles on Wikipedia, for example see Microsoft or IBM as typical examples. Putting this article up for peer review might help, or maybe the Article Improvement Drive to get it ready for the Featured Article status that it deserves! — Wackymacs 18:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
The article says that: " CEO of Apple Computer also stated during his keynote address at the World Wide Developers Conference 2005, that the use of Mac OS X will continue well into the next two decades." I was not able to remember that sentence, to I reviewed the video. What Steve Jobs actually said was: "[OS X] has set Apple up for the next 20 years" (ca. 19:50), and I don't think the article reflects this quote accurately
I have never used an Apple before. One thing that has always confused me is Apple's mouse. A typical mouse has one button to Select items and the other button to access the Options. Well how in the world do I "right-click" if Apple's mouse only has one button? Do Apple operating systems even have a "right-click" options menu? I would appreciate any help. -- Secret Agent Man 01:22, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
"Following September 11, 2001, Apple Computer began firing and facilitating the racially motivated deportation of dozens of segregated ethnic minorities, including individuals who had developed Mac OS X. Shortly thereafter, several Mac OS X-related projects were handed over to unqualified employees with no relevant Computer Science, or otherwise technical qualifications. Mac OS X has since changed very little, while tens of thousands of new bugs have been reported on it. OS X remains a historical remnant of Apple Computer's purchase of NeXT, being replaced by iPod as Apple's new hope for survival."
Is there a source on this? The last sentance in particular is factually inaccurate, there ahve been Substantial OS X changes (core video/audio, Quartz Extreme, etc) since release..
E1ven 03:03, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
The following part of a paragraph is a bit POV, I believe. It is also factually wrong in a way, since customers only own a copy, and they aren't even allowed to do what they feel like with the copy without violating the EULA:
David Remahl 01:41, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Could add a section of past CEOs to the Apple as a Corporation section - since there are just 6, to me it makes sense to include their names instead of having a special page just for that. What do you think? Spangineer 18:00, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
This has been moved here from user's talk page where it was inappropriate. The gist is that a revertion of [anon user]'s post took place. I agreed with the reversion, but the anon poster did not, not unnaturally.
Well I was surprised to see what I wrote was completely removed because someone thought it was POV. What should I do? Put it back in because I think what YOU did was because of your POV? Also I was surprised to see that you didnt find anything worth salvaging.
What I wrote was true: Apple uses top quality hardware, and used to use the best standards (like SCSI). But you seem to think that's not something to mention. I also noted that Apple's system stability was due to the quality of the hardware and Apple's quality assurance. You slashed that out too.
And especially you deleted the part about apple's misleading marketing campaigns, which are true. http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1042_3-5180251.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/technology/3797261.stm And the exaggerations of the thruth (which are already pointed in the article earlier, but RDF'd already). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field
And about the claims of optimized drivers, many sites discuss this, among others: http://spl.haxial.net/apple-powermac-G5/
I hope you will reconsider and show the community that you are not a fascist apple zealot.
[post unsigned]
This ignores the history of the personal computer, where there were many competing systems and standards long before it gelled into the 2 camps of today. In addition, many would argue that PCs and Macs were more compatible than this would suggest - many file formats, disks, etc were interchangeable even in the early days.
Pure opinion. Comparisons such as "better" have no place in an encyclopedia.
If this is a fact, it would be very hard to prove (especially the reliability claim). Since most disk mechanisms are mechanically identical whether IDE or SCSI, and reliability is generally a mechanical issue, I doubt this claim is even true. In addition, the level of technical detail you go into here and in other places is not warranted in a general article about Appel Computer (the company).
Again, using the term "best" is pure POV. RS-422 is better than what? In what way? Can you quantify it?
How do you know this is a fact? Do you have access to Apple's inventory and purchasing records? Also, again, how would you quantify it?
Apart from being speculation and opinion, this sentence is not grammatical.
Possibly true, but not interesting in the context of an encyclopedia article.
This was also an issue with Macs and most other computer systems before quite recently. However the main problem with this para (I've omitted the rest of it for brevity) is that it comes across as a piece of typical propaganda - or more crudely Mac fanboyism. As such it has no place in an encyclopedia.
POV.
Can you prove this with evidence? Do you have access to manufacturers' internal release policy documents? Or are you simply spouting rubbish based on your own prejudices? The rest of that para (omitted) is just rambling opinion.
"better" is a purely subjective notion, and hence POV. If it's a fact, it must be quantifiable. Wikipedia is not a place for the deconstruction of advertisements and marketing campaigns. You can state the facts, you cannot offer your own interpretation, etc. You can say "Apple's marketing campaign for the G5, claiming it was "the world's fastest personal computer" was criticised by the UK's Advertising Standards Authority as "misleading". Those are the facts, neutrally reported, and they are reported in this manner elsewhere within WP.
Well, you said it. Again, the wording of this is just not encyclopedic. There could be the basis here for an article such as "PC vs. Mac fanboyism", but to be honest it's all been covered elsewhere at great length. Try Operating system advocacy, Comparison of operating systems, and so on - all of these stick to the facts.
The main issue here is not whether or not I agree with what you're saying - in large part I do. The issue is whether your opinions count as a worthwhile contribution to an encyclopedia. We are concerned only with the facts. Reported facts can include verifyable quotations of others' opinions - like the ASA's above, but they should not be opinions in and of themselves. When you've understood the difference, your points might find a home. However, there are already many many articles on WP about PCs and Macs with probably all of this ground already covered. Graham 02:28, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well I'm sorry if my wording doesn't meet an encyclopedic level (whatever that level must be), as I'm not a native english speaker so my words may not be ellegant but I find them to be understandable enough.
I meant, generic low-grade PCs. What's wrong with "better"? That's YOUR opinion.
I take it for granted that you don't know ANYTHING about high-end hardware. For example, and I'm not going to spend my time googling it for you, SCSI drives are NOT "mechanically identical" to IDE drives. IDE drives are designed for quiet, self-cooling operation. In contrast, SCSI drives are designed without noise levels in mind, and most need extra cooling, because they are designed for high performance and high reliability. And about reliability, for some reason SCSI drives have a MTBF (mean time between failures) of 1.000.000 - 1.500.000 hours, while IDE drives have MTBFs of about 150.000 hours. SCSI drives are also prepared for a higher duty cycle (40 - 50%_ than IDEs (20%). How do you measure all that? Get some drives, put them on an array and let them chunk away for a few days. You'll find more dead IDE drives (10 times more, in average).
I'm not a Mac fanboy. I don't even own one!
RS-422 (Apple standard serial port) is better than RS-232 (PC standard serial port). It's better in the sense of speed (10Mbits/sec vs. 115200bps) and cable length (15m vs 1200m). But you didn't know that, did you?
I was actually going to answer to every single of your points but really, it's a waste of time. I don't care anymore, do whatever you want with the article. I'm really tired to answer to every single smartass who thinks he's better than everyone else and actually it's just talking shit. As far as I know my points are as valid as yours. Wait. They are more valid, because mine are not based 100% in opinions. Most of my points are verifiable while yours are just opinions. Here's an article for you to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_standards As in "I THINK AN ARTICLE BASED ON WHAT I THINK ARE JUST OPINIONS DOESN'T BELONG IN AN ENCYCLOPEDIA"
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