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Opening sentence: "An apparent molar property is a quantity that can be used to calculate a property of a solution." This isn't a definition, and it's pretty vague on top of that. 89.217.0.117 ( talk) 12:20, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I edited this and some other things. The article is still pretty fluffy and watery. 89.217.0.117 ( talk) 12:54, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I think it would be a useful addition to article to present the connection between the concept from this article and the pseudo-component defined by process simulation software when analyzing multicomponent mixtures.-- 86.125.167.205 ( talk) 12:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Pseudobinary systems can occur in solutions with more than one solvent where the molality can be defined as amount of solute in moles per kilogram of mixed solvent.-- 82.137.8.167 ( talk) 23:02, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
I notice an insufficiently explained removal of some subsections from article. Please discuss before removing some details from article.-- 86.125.167.205 ( talk) 12:26, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
From what can be seen in the history of the article, the removed details refer to apparent thermal expansivity.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 14:20, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I see the sections above and the latest edits to article. They seem to assume that the solvent is not entitled to have apparent quantities defined for it. This is a problematic assumption. Thoughts?-- 193.254.231.34 ( talk) 07:20, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I see the most recent edits to article involving a recently noticed source. In these conditions I think that at least some if not all of the content removed in 28th of January this year could be reinserted back with necessary adjustments if needed.-- 85.121.32.1 ( talk) 15:40, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I also think that the source recently linked on talk:Activity coefficient#Ternary_solutions_-_electrolyte_-_non-electrolyte_interaction regarding sugar salt solutions could be cited as well.-- 85.121.32.1 ( talk) 15:45, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I think this section would be reasonable, if the terms included in the definition of the "pseudobinary" ternary system are defined. As it stands, is V_2, for instance, supposed to refer to only the volume of pure component 2. Then what does V_{12} mean? Alsosaid1987 ( talk) 01:44, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
It seems that there are some relations between an apparent quantity such as apparent volume of an electrolyte divided to the molar volume of the solvent and the statistical part of its activity coefficient in concentrated solutions, as in the source mentioned there on coefficient page. Can someone access the full text of that source to extract more info?-- 82.137.10.13 ( talk) 14:42, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
It is useful to add to article the sums of individual components apparent quantities and the link to the sums of clustered components apparent quantities and .-- 82.137.12.253 ( talk) 13:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
This relation involving summing is needed for consistency of calculations, similar to the more known sum of mole fractions or mass fractions which is constant, namely 1.--ElectroChem-Al(NiCuZn) 82.137.15.27 ( talk) 13:07, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
The apparent quantities of components point to a link to the types of volume fraction and volume concentration of components which can be written in order to underline the deviation from additivity of ideal mixtures.-- 82.137.12.253 ( talk) 14:07, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Also the relation to mixing ratio is a useful inclusion to article.-- 82.137.12.253 ( talk) 14:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
In the subsection Apparent molar property#Alcohol there is a numerical value of 1.055 L/kg for specific volume of the mixture, assumed to be ideal, with 20% ethanol. How is this value obtained?-- 82.137.15.167 ( talk) 23:51, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The previously mentioned question also appears at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2016_May_5#Percent_deviation_from_additivity by User:Tevildo.-- 82.137.15.167 ( talk) 00:02, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I think that more context, useful to the subject of the article, could be extracted from the cited source Citric acid, by Appleblat Apelblat. What is the motivation/situation that leads to the use of the subject of the article in a book/monograph(?) written for a particular substance (citric acid)?--
82.137.9.225 (
talk)
12:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I think a closer analysis of the context from this source is necessary in order to clarify the aspects re the non-additivity error, mentioned in a section below. --ElectroChem-Al(NiCuZn)-- 82.137.10.87 ( talk) 12:33, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
The reference added today is identified as E. Glueckauf (1955) in the journal Transactions of the Faraday Society: We need the volume number, page number and title please. I tried to find this source with Google and found a list of papers here by Glueckauf which includes three 1955 papers in this journal. Which (if any) is the correct one please? Dirac66 ( talk) 03:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The section Multicomponent mixtures or solutions now claims for the pseudobinary method that The apparent molar volumes of each of the two solutes are then
The first fractional expression here correctly defines the apparent molar volume of component 1 by this method. However the second expression incorrectly assumes that volumes are necessarily additive, so that the solution of solute 2 in the solvent (water) equals the sum of volumes of solvent before mixing and solute 2 before mixing. If this were always true, the theory would be much simpler. But usually it is not true because the molecules are subject to different intermolecular forces in the pure state and in the solution, so that the mixing involves a change of volume (and other properties as well). I will now remove the incorrect equations for all three components. Dirac66 ( talk) 21:58, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I have rechecked the source Apelblat and found that it says about this type of calculation like that described above that is unsatisfactory.-- 82.137.13.62 ( talk) 15:24, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I notice that the formula for solvent apparent quantity has been removed based on the reason that it needs the solutes to be liquid thus in the same state of matter like the liquid solvent in order that solvent apparent quantity be meaningful! So I wonder about the supposed conditions of meaningfulness, are they really necessary for a quantity already (quasi)fictitious like the apparent?--ElectroChem-Al(NiCuZn) 82.137.14.182 ( talk) 13:29, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
I've just encountered a source, rather dense in formulae/equations, containing among other aspects, mentions re the derivatives of apparent (molar) volume with respect to temperature and pressure, aka apparent molar thermal expansivity and apparent isothermal compressibility: http://acta-arhiv.chem-soc.si/53/53-3-274.pdf. I think this would be a useful addition to this wikiarticle.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 13:54, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I have browsed the above mentioned source Apelblat finding that it contains expressions with partial derivatives (of volume etc.)-- 109.166.136.19 ( talk) 11:48, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I see in a section above the source P. Rock which mentions the case of apparent properties for both components of two-liquid(s) mixtures. What is the case for three-liquids mixtures/systems like water-glycerol-ethanol? Is the apparent property of a liquid component from these ternary systems the difference between the volume of the mixture and volumes of the other two components as pure components before mixing?--Electrochem-Al(NiCuZn) 82.137.8.69 ( talk) 22:49, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
I think the relation to molality would need further details about intermediate steps in derivation.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 13:45, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Beside the mentioned equation in article, there is another in some sources:
where d, d0 densities of solution and solvent, varrho_1 mass concentration of solute.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 14:15, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
The previous equality is considered equivalent to that in article, requiring clarification:
Both equalities appear in a source article in Food Chemistry (journal), 122(2010), p 455-461.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 14:28, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
An intermediate form would be:
from specific volumes v, v0
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
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Opening sentence: "An apparent molar property is a quantity that can be used to calculate a property of a solution." This isn't a definition, and it's pretty vague on top of that. 89.217.0.117 ( talk) 12:20, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I edited this and some other things. The article is still pretty fluffy and watery. 89.217.0.117 ( talk) 12:54, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I think it would be a useful addition to article to present the connection between the concept from this article and the pseudo-component defined by process simulation software when analyzing multicomponent mixtures.-- 86.125.167.205 ( talk) 12:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Pseudobinary systems can occur in solutions with more than one solvent where the molality can be defined as amount of solute in moles per kilogram of mixed solvent.-- 82.137.8.167 ( talk) 23:02, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
I notice an insufficiently explained removal of some subsections from article. Please discuss before removing some details from article.-- 86.125.167.205 ( talk) 12:26, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
From what can be seen in the history of the article, the removed details refer to apparent thermal expansivity.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 14:20, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I see the sections above and the latest edits to article. They seem to assume that the solvent is not entitled to have apparent quantities defined for it. This is a problematic assumption. Thoughts?-- 193.254.231.34 ( talk) 07:20, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I see the most recent edits to article involving a recently noticed source. In these conditions I think that at least some if not all of the content removed in 28th of January this year could be reinserted back with necessary adjustments if needed.-- 85.121.32.1 ( talk) 15:40, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I also think that the source recently linked on talk:Activity coefficient#Ternary_solutions_-_electrolyte_-_non-electrolyte_interaction regarding sugar salt solutions could be cited as well.-- 85.121.32.1 ( talk) 15:45, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I think this section would be reasonable, if the terms included in the definition of the "pseudobinary" ternary system are defined. As it stands, is V_2, for instance, supposed to refer to only the volume of pure component 2. Then what does V_{12} mean? Alsosaid1987 ( talk) 01:44, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
It seems that there are some relations between an apparent quantity such as apparent volume of an electrolyte divided to the molar volume of the solvent and the statistical part of its activity coefficient in concentrated solutions, as in the source mentioned there on coefficient page. Can someone access the full text of that source to extract more info?-- 82.137.10.13 ( talk) 14:42, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
It is useful to add to article the sums of individual components apparent quantities and the link to the sums of clustered components apparent quantities and .-- 82.137.12.253 ( talk) 13:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
This relation involving summing is needed for consistency of calculations, similar to the more known sum of mole fractions or mass fractions which is constant, namely 1.--ElectroChem-Al(NiCuZn) 82.137.15.27 ( talk) 13:07, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
The apparent quantities of components point to a link to the types of volume fraction and volume concentration of components which can be written in order to underline the deviation from additivity of ideal mixtures.-- 82.137.12.253 ( talk) 14:07, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Also the relation to mixing ratio is a useful inclusion to article.-- 82.137.12.253 ( talk) 14:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
In the subsection Apparent molar property#Alcohol there is a numerical value of 1.055 L/kg for specific volume of the mixture, assumed to be ideal, with 20% ethanol. How is this value obtained?-- 82.137.15.167 ( talk) 23:51, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The previously mentioned question also appears at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2016_May_5#Percent_deviation_from_additivity by User:Tevildo.-- 82.137.15.167 ( talk) 00:02, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I think that more context, useful to the subject of the article, could be extracted from the cited source Citric acid, by Appleblat Apelblat. What is the motivation/situation that leads to the use of the subject of the article in a book/monograph(?) written for a particular substance (citric acid)?--
82.137.9.225 (
talk)
12:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I think a closer analysis of the context from this source is necessary in order to clarify the aspects re the non-additivity error, mentioned in a section below. --ElectroChem-Al(NiCuZn)-- 82.137.10.87 ( talk) 12:33, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
The reference added today is identified as E. Glueckauf (1955) in the journal Transactions of the Faraday Society: We need the volume number, page number and title please. I tried to find this source with Google and found a list of papers here by Glueckauf which includes three 1955 papers in this journal. Which (if any) is the correct one please? Dirac66 ( talk) 03:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The section Multicomponent mixtures or solutions now claims for the pseudobinary method that The apparent molar volumes of each of the two solutes are then
The first fractional expression here correctly defines the apparent molar volume of component 1 by this method. However the second expression incorrectly assumes that volumes are necessarily additive, so that the solution of solute 2 in the solvent (water) equals the sum of volumes of solvent before mixing and solute 2 before mixing. If this were always true, the theory would be much simpler. But usually it is not true because the molecules are subject to different intermolecular forces in the pure state and in the solution, so that the mixing involves a change of volume (and other properties as well). I will now remove the incorrect equations for all three components. Dirac66 ( talk) 21:58, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I have rechecked the source Apelblat and found that it says about this type of calculation like that described above that is unsatisfactory.-- 82.137.13.62 ( talk) 15:24, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I notice that the formula for solvent apparent quantity has been removed based on the reason that it needs the solutes to be liquid thus in the same state of matter like the liquid solvent in order that solvent apparent quantity be meaningful! So I wonder about the supposed conditions of meaningfulness, are they really necessary for a quantity already (quasi)fictitious like the apparent?--ElectroChem-Al(NiCuZn) 82.137.14.182 ( talk) 13:29, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
I've just encountered a source, rather dense in formulae/equations, containing among other aspects, mentions re the derivatives of apparent (molar) volume with respect to temperature and pressure, aka apparent molar thermal expansivity and apparent isothermal compressibility: http://acta-arhiv.chem-soc.si/53/53-3-274.pdf. I think this would be a useful addition to this wikiarticle.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 13:54, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I have browsed the above mentioned source Apelblat finding that it contains expressions with partial derivatives (of volume etc.)-- 109.166.136.19 ( talk) 11:48, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I see in a section above the source P. Rock which mentions the case of apparent properties for both components of two-liquid(s) mixtures. What is the case for three-liquids mixtures/systems like water-glycerol-ethanol? Is the apparent property of a liquid component from these ternary systems the difference between the volume of the mixture and volumes of the other two components as pure components before mixing?--Electrochem-Al(NiCuZn) 82.137.8.69 ( talk) 22:49, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
I think the relation to molality would need further details about intermediate steps in derivation.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 13:45, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Beside the mentioned equation in article, there is another in some sources:
where d, d0 densities of solution and solvent, varrho_1 mass concentration of solute.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 14:15, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
The previous equality is considered equivalent to that in article, requiring clarification:
Both equalities appear in a source article in Food Chemistry (journal), 122(2010), p 455-461.-- 5.2.200.163 ( talk) 14:28, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
An intermediate form would be:
from specific volumes v, v0