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I think that this article should lose all of the "controversy" between Catholic and Protestant views as expressed in the horrendous to-and-fro. It is inviting an editor to demand the addition of one more go-round, of steadily less and less well sourced argumentation, and it detracts from the coherence of the article. My proposal is to radically prune this--leaving the non-AS view, such as it is, as a simple explanation that churches outside the AS do not view it as crucial to the existence of the church, and object to its necessity. Much of the problem in turn is caused by the redirect from Apostolicity, which only encourages this article to become an unworkable behemoth. So that redirect should be abandoned, and a new article on Apostolicity should be created, and can even have many of the ideas (if not the horrid to-and-fro) from the existing article which need to be pruned from here. Tb ( talk) 02:46, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
The idea of a separate article for Apostolicity (by creating a stub, and with a top notation here referring to this other article) has merit and should be done. Thanks are due Tb for bringing to light that a Wikipedia search for "Apostolicity" redirects to Apostolic Succession. In fact, it greatly explains the presence and vigor of the anti-A.S. commentary here.
Yet I do not consider incurable, or of no value, what Tb above caricatures as "horrendous to-and-fro" between Catholic and Protestant. Rather the substantive content of the several argumentative sections contain much of merit (see below), and can be made acceptable if pruned and transformed by restatement, e.g., in the form of a neutral array of rational and objective propositions. Also, by eliminating the partisan debating points, "over the top" elements, and exaggerations, one would also eliminate the patches of "attractive nuissance" that currently lurk in this article. Tb will hopefully eliminate these someday--but with proper discretion and awareness.
Too, neither should "Apostolic Succession" be trimmed of the Calvin Reform's historic contra positions and its modern objections. Because A.S. is a key issue of church governance relevant for all of Christianity, all the church positions should be presented for a fair and inclusive Wikipedia article; otherwise it may result in a "well-comouflaged" P.O.V. for those churches pro A.S., which would be inappropriate.
Presentation of Calvin Reform's position, and its spin offs, can be made in sections discussing the positions of various contra churches, as churches. Can be presented without advertising them as anti-A.S. arguments or as an invitation to further polemical display (this was partially achieved by the rewrite of September 2007).
This next is very important. Apparently recent research within the Calvin Reform churches raises an interesting, and significant question: whether or not A.S. works to further doctrinal coherence among the various churches who practice it. This is stated beginning at the third paragraph in the section "A Protestant Reformation definition of Apostolic Succession", where its greater relevance is buried in an energetic polemic. (This contribution is marred by such high-handed pronouncements (following the bullets) as: that A.S. is therefore "false" and "meaningless".) Nonetheless this question is important and should be saved by its excision, then stripped of its polemical elements, leaving the sequence of examples of doctrinal divergence among churches practicing A.S. For P.O.V. balance, a counter-example of the divergence among contra A.S. churches should be presented (this was recently accomplished, but unfortunately soon deleted.) This challenging question brings some modern methods to the issue of Apostolic Succession. An obstinate traditionalist, of course, may be impelled to "overlook" it. Yet tradition and illumination are not inherent antagonists. As Wikipedia should strive always to rise to excellence, and avoid P.O.V., this question should be made a separate section in this article.
These general approaches were discussed some time ago on this discussion page. Please see above Recent Changes (September 2007). Much of it is still current. For one, the lead section should not state the contra position, but rather the traditional doctrine.
"Clean up" should preserve content of merit, but transform what may now appear as rough diamonds obscured by polemic. "Clean up" should not be used as a cover for P.O.V. Thanks would be due whoever does it well. Elfelix ( talk) 19:22, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't "Apostolicity as doctrinal continuity" belong somewhere near the bottom of the article not straight after the intro? The section is long woolly and badly worded and not so directly relevant (it is a substitute doctrine really). -- BozMo talk 14:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
An IP editor just added (and I just removed, for want of reliable sources) "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also claims apostolic succession through an event which they claim occurred in the year 1830 when Peter, James, and John of the original Twelve Apostles visited the Prophet Joseph Smith and conferred the Melchizedek priesthood upon him by the laying on of hands. [1]"
The cited source is a draft article in another wiki, which I feel falls well short of the standards required by WP:V. I've moved it here rather than just deleting it because I see that there's been previous discussion of the LDS views, and it may be that other editors who've been around this article for longer than me can very quickly add a suitable reference that would allow the text to be reinstated. I'd also like to see mentioned, in the interest of maintaining a balanced article, whether this is a generally held view within the LDS or whether there are opposing views as well, as there seems to be some controversy about it.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Timberframe ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the section below because it seems to belong here, on the discussion page, rather than in the main article. It is apparently a response from a traditionalist Catholic to the summation of an article by an evangelical apologist, called "What Evangelicals Should Know About the Orthodox Church," that I put in the preceding section, together with some supporting links, to illustrate how evangelical Protestants dismiss the doctrine of Apostolic Succession.
I think that this addition to the article has two serious flaws, aside from its inappropriate style: it contains assertions that are plainly not true, and it speaks from a distinctly Catholic perspective.
The claim that Apostolic Succession only has to do with the sacramental authority of the bishops and has nothing to do with the bishop's teachings is plainly not the traditional understanding of large chunks of the ancient/medieval Christian world. The article itself notes that Eastern Orthodox claim Catholicism lost apostolic succession due to its doctrinal innovations. The Roman Catholic understanding may be that apostolic succession has nothing to do with sound doctrinal teaching - which strikes me as odd, since it would be tantamount to saying that the bishops aren't trustworthy pastors, which would undercut most of Catholicism's apologetics - but it is not the "traditional" understanding unless you consider Roman Catholicism to be "traditional" Christianity. Some doubtlessly do regard the RCC as the final authority on such matters, but that is not reason enough to put it in Wikipedia. I would allow that such a rejoinder can be put into the article if it as labeled as "the Catholic perspective," but not as simply "the traditional" one.
The claim that there are "thousands" of denominations that all started from doctrinal disagreements is also doubtful. Most denominations started simply due churches organizing themselves in a geographic area or among specific populations. Most congregational churches do not even have "denominations," but have simple networks that don't claim to be "churches" in the sense that Catholics use the word.-- ManicBrit ( talk) 19:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Commentary on semantics and on concord
The above contra position clearly rejects Apostolic Succession as traditionally understood (see above "The Traditional Doctrine"). Yet the contra position goes on to articulate an entirely new and completely different definition of Apostolic Succession, one that references loyalty to the teaching of the apostles. Thus "succession" would not in any way refer to which person will next occupy a leadership position in the church and its theological character, but instead refer to the theological understanding of the church based on its teachings. Of course, each church freely defines or redefines for itself its own understanding of any theological term it uses; in which case, confusion may result if it is not remembered that the same word or phrase may mean something entirely different.
Disagreement is extremely common among the various Protestant denominations as to the interpreted content of the Christian teaching that commands loyalty.
In the apostolic Christian view, disagreement also can result among traditionalists as to the identity of bishops under Apostolic Succession, but this rarely happens, and, even if it does, can quickly be dealt with by those of undisputed apostolic authority. Traditionalist Apostolic Succession does result in an ecclesiastical structure that provides the medium for settling many difficult matters regarding the interpreted content of Christian doctrine or teaching. Because of this, The apostolic churches remain far less divided than the Protestant denominations, which currently number in the thousands, and split often over doctrinal disputes.
this part needs expanded, there ARE other churches, such as I think? the chuch at antioch that claims succession to the throne of peter and paul, and I think? peter has another church that is not catholic. dava4444 @ 01.07.09 @11:48am /addition:could someone expend this to it's own page? with histories, traditions (verifiable), each Papal, Patriach, Catholicus degree, concering each other. thanks dava4444 @ 06.07.09 @19:17 gmt
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Timberframe ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I removed this section, which was an attempt by a Catholic apologist to downplay the doctrinal disagreements listed between Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, and Catholic churches:
Mormons and Unitarians are not Christians, but different religions. It is doubtful that Unitarians can even be categorized as "Abrahamic," since this sect looks to Buddhism, Wicca, atheist existentialist philosophies, and others sources besides the Bible. While the Mormons may try to label themselves Christian, they are most definitely not "Protestants" since they do not accept Sola Scriptura, but accept additional scriptures such as the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price. No mainstream Christian theological body regards the Mormons as a branch of the orthodox Christian tradition, even within the Protestant spectrum.
As a Protestant in the sola scriptura tradition, I can more easily categorize the Mormons as the same type of religion as Catholicism - it too is a religion led by an infallible religious officer, with priests who serve as mediators, and mysterious sacraments that are necessary for salvation. Like Catholicism's intellectualized, propositional Scholastic theology which rejects negative theological reflections and mystical approaches to God and asserts that God is an object of intellectual inquiry and verbal description, Mormonism posits a limited God who is material in nature. The attempts by Catholic Apologists to categorize Baptists and Evangelicals with Mormons and Moonies is either so misinformed that it means Catholic Apologists don't understand sola scriptura, or else it is a blatantly dishonest attempt to muddy terms and language so that criticisms of the Catholic Church cannot be clearly expressed and understood within the semantic limitations imposed on the minds of Catholics. In either case, since Mormons and Unitarians are irrelevant to discussions of Protestantism and sola scriptura, I have removed the paragraph.-- ManicBrit ( talk) 15:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I think we also need to be clear that despite the similarities in their names, and the fact that they are probably not considered "Protestants" or "mainstream Christians"—or even "Christians" at all—by some people, Unitarian Universalists and the Unification Church are not the same. The insertion of "Moonies," i.e., members of Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, into one of the responses above, which had up to that point only discussed the Mormons and the Unitarian Universalists, may make people believe there is some attempt to identify one with the other. 64.162.197.48 ( talk) 22:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Latest addition on Mormon interpretation of Jesus promises may sound harsh to some. I don't intend it to be NPOV, just trying to state an LDS view as accurately as possible (even though it is still kind of sketchy). Please feel free to edit tone, style etc. Thanks. B 01:31 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hi all, I have tagged this section as POV, but in fact POV is spread throughout the article, which overall is, imo, scrappy. Please help, but, again imo, the whole thing needs a re-write. Regards, Springnuts ( talk) 10:09, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
What I miss in the article is a discussion of the question of infallibility of apostolic succession. Does the doctrine of apostolic succession teach that apostolic succession has certain infallibility, and if so, in what sense is it infallible? Would the succession of the Roman Catholic popes be regarded as infallible from the Roman Catholic perspective? What is the spectrum of positions with respect to this question? How does the doctrine of apostolic succession relate to the principle of Sola Scriptura? Theophilius ( talk) 03:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
The Old Catholic Churches and the Liberal Catholic Churches claim to be apostolic, as far as I understand. I suppose that the Anglicans do accept at least those claims of the Union of Utrecht (Old Catholic), since they are in full communion with them. I remember from my own youth that liberal catholics tended to put quite some emphasis on their possession of apostolic succession.
There may be more "apostolic splinters" of this kind, which do not quite classify as "protestants", and absolutely not as "lutherans". I think they should be mentioned somewhere here. JoergenB ( talk) 21:57, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Why is there no history section? Was Irenaeus the first to hold this view? state this view? use the term? Who did? Exacly what it Irenaeus and others indicate? şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 23:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm a member of a church called Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, which holds regular performances of the Gnostic Mass and practices a religion called Thelema. Apostolic succession is a core belief in EGC, though we derive our succession from our Prophet Aleister Crowley (though, incidentally, we also have succession all the way from Paul). Our doctrine of apostolic succession is very similar to that of the Christians, so much so that I don't think it warrants its own article. Due to its importance to our religion, however, I do believe it warrants mention on Wikipedia. I'd like to add a section briefly mentioning that this concept is found outside of Christianity. If anyone here thinks that this warrants a separate article or should be handled differently, let's discuss it here.
One stated purpose of EGC is "...to restore Christianity to its real status as a solar-phallic religion," and as such, many of us consider our practices to be more authentically Christian than most Christian practices today.
- Nanamin ( talk) 00:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
It's important not to overstate the unanimity of opinion regarding the apostolic succession the Church of England throughout its history. The matter was greatly debated among Anglican divines in the 17th and 18th century, and was an especially fraught bone of contention during the Bangorian controversy and the debates regarding ersastianism in the early 18th century. Tory high churchmen and non-jurors strongly emphasized the apostolic succession--important to their vision of the integrity of the priestly office and the relative independence of the church from secular authority. In contrast, the whiggish, low-church opinion prevailing among the church hierarchy (especially bishops appointed under William and Mary and the early Hanoverian monarchs) in the 18th century tended to downplay or even deny the apostolic succession in favor of civil supremacy in ecclesiastical matters. For these erastians the right of ecclesiastical prerogative was not passed down through an unbroken line of bishops since the apostles, but was exercised by the sovereign as law-giver (on the order of moses). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.21.77 ( talk) 19:23, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
I see that my edit was immediately reverted, presumably because it was believed to be vandalism. What do other editors think of it? Esoglou ( talk) 08:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The lede defines "apostolic succession" as being a continuous succession from the Apostles down to the present. The sections on the Mormons and Thelema/E.C.G clearly state that their beliefs are very different, so it seems that logically they are out of place here in this article. Should they not be transferred to more appropriate locations with the corresponding disambiguations if necessary?
While on the subject of the lede I have amplified it to specify more clearly the basic understanding of the concept and the fact that some not all writers assert that "through consecration to the episcopal office they [bishops] inherit from the apostles the transmission of the Holy Ghost which empowers them for the performance of their work".
I will also try and work up the first part of the section on Anglican Churches bearing in mind the comments made on this page. Jpacobb ( talk) 01:32, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I have started a new section on the Early Church (it is at present hidden as a comment). When I have completed it, I will remove similar references in other sections unless they are vital to the argument at that particular point. The information on Anglicanism is inadequate, it even included contradictions and there is a certain amount of repetition. I have done a first round of tidying up but more remains to be done. I then intend to expand the Anglican section to cover the varying attitudes to A.S. Jpacobb ( talk) 22:39, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I have marked this as dubious since, whatever a couple of sources may say, it is hard to see how the Acts, passed in the second half of the 14th century, might be relevant since they were intended to limit legal appeals to the Bishop of Rome and the Vatican and Erasmas claimed to be a Greek Orthodox bishop. There is a reference in the 1393 act to "elsewhere"; but, even so, it would have been difficult for the Crown to prove that its justice or interests had been prejudiced within the meaning of the Act by the ordination of Wesley to the episcopate. Furthermore, as far as I can find out they had been dormant since the reign of James I. The most the historian can say, even if it is assumed the original source is correct, is that Wesley thought he might fall foul of the Praemunire Acts. Jpacobb ( talk) 04:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
At least it's concise now, but I challenge anyone to support the 2nd sentence from the sources 1 & 2. And what does "indirectly through the initiative of an apostolic see" mean, anyway?
I'm not looking up sources 3 and 4 because I really believe the 3rd sentence is too questionable to be in the lede. Whether the sources said it or not, I am inclined to amend this section by adding a counter-claim, but I think it wd b better to have that discussion elsewhere in the article. Vikslen ( talk) 00:33, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
The ODCC entry (I have the 3rd edition), in the 3rd sentence, states "These bishops have been regarded as succeeding the apostles because: (1) they perform the functions of the apostles; (2) their commission goes back to the apostles; (3) they succeed one another in the same sees ... and (4) by some writers because through their consecration ... they inherit from the apostles .. the Holy Spirit which empowers them."
However, "succeeding one another in the same sees" is not the most common understanding of apostolic succession. In the last several centuries it has usually been understood as a matter of succession from consecrating bishops (not usually or necessarily the predecessor in the same see) to the new bishop. This understanding is conveyed , I believe, by item 4 in the ODCC quote above, but is more clearly put in the Gonzalez reference (which may be viewed online). (I suspect the Catholic Encyclopedia states this as the main or only meaning....)
The sentence "Bishops are seen not as succeeding to the apostolic office" may be controverted and doesn't belong in this section. Item 1 from ODCC above appears to contradict it. comment added by Vikslen ( talk • contribs) 18:34, 15 September 2012 (UTC) Vikslen ( talk) 23:30, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
I leave it to Anupam to decide on second thoughts whether it was better to revert to duplicating the citation and quotation from Whalen, to giving the impression that British Methodists too petitioned to receive the sacraments from the local preachers who conducted worship services and revivals, to writing "Wesley assumed the power to ordained", "Holy Ghose" ... Esoglou ( talk) 20:10, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
erm.. why 'claims'? smacks of skepticism if you ask me. something neutral would be better.. I changed this once before but someone changed back. can we get consensus please?
Dava4444 ( talk) 20:43, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
An IP editor recently removed a section related to Richard McBrien without an explanation why. I'm opening this conversation in hopes to foster a discussion on this material. — Asterisk * Splat → 18:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
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Jay's The Church: its changing image through twenty centuries John Knox (1980) was first published by SPCK in two volumes (1977,1978) and there seems to be a numbering difference of a page or so between them. I have completed the title and adjusted the page numbering in some of the references given to the 1980 edition, but have not touched those dated 1977/8. -— Jpacobb ( talk) 02:15, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I think that this article should lose all of the "controversy" between Catholic and Protestant views as expressed in the horrendous to-and-fro. It is inviting an editor to demand the addition of one more go-round, of steadily less and less well sourced argumentation, and it detracts from the coherence of the article. My proposal is to radically prune this--leaving the non-AS view, such as it is, as a simple explanation that churches outside the AS do not view it as crucial to the existence of the church, and object to its necessity. Much of the problem in turn is caused by the redirect from Apostolicity, which only encourages this article to become an unworkable behemoth. So that redirect should be abandoned, and a new article on Apostolicity should be created, and can even have many of the ideas (if not the horrid to-and-fro) from the existing article which need to be pruned from here. Tb ( talk) 02:46, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
The idea of a separate article for Apostolicity (by creating a stub, and with a top notation here referring to this other article) has merit and should be done. Thanks are due Tb for bringing to light that a Wikipedia search for "Apostolicity" redirects to Apostolic Succession. In fact, it greatly explains the presence and vigor of the anti-A.S. commentary here.
Yet I do not consider incurable, or of no value, what Tb above caricatures as "horrendous to-and-fro" between Catholic and Protestant. Rather the substantive content of the several argumentative sections contain much of merit (see below), and can be made acceptable if pruned and transformed by restatement, e.g., in the form of a neutral array of rational and objective propositions. Also, by eliminating the partisan debating points, "over the top" elements, and exaggerations, one would also eliminate the patches of "attractive nuissance" that currently lurk in this article. Tb will hopefully eliminate these someday--but with proper discretion and awareness.
Too, neither should "Apostolic Succession" be trimmed of the Calvin Reform's historic contra positions and its modern objections. Because A.S. is a key issue of church governance relevant for all of Christianity, all the church positions should be presented for a fair and inclusive Wikipedia article; otherwise it may result in a "well-comouflaged" P.O.V. for those churches pro A.S., which would be inappropriate.
Presentation of Calvin Reform's position, and its spin offs, can be made in sections discussing the positions of various contra churches, as churches. Can be presented without advertising them as anti-A.S. arguments or as an invitation to further polemical display (this was partially achieved by the rewrite of September 2007).
This next is very important. Apparently recent research within the Calvin Reform churches raises an interesting, and significant question: whether or not A.S. works to further doctrinal coherence among the various churches who practice it. This is stated beginning at the third paragraph in the section "A Protestant Reformation definition of Apostolic Succession", where its greater relevance is buried in an energetic polemic. (This contribution is marred by such high-handed pronouncements (following the bullets) as: that A.S. is therefore "false" and "meaningless".) Nonetheless this question is important and should be saved by its excision, then stripped of its polemical elements, leaving the sequence of examples of doctrinal divergence among churches practicing A.S. For P.O.V. balance, a counter-example of the divergence among contra A.S. churches should be presented (this was recently accomplished, but unfortunately soon deleted.) This challenging question brings some modern methods to the issue of Apostolic Succession. An obstinate traditionalist, of course, may be impelled to "overlook" it. Yet tradition and illumination are not inherent antagonists. As Wikipedia should strive always to rise to excellence, and avoid P.O.V., this question should be made a separate section in this article.
These general approaches were discussed some time ago on this discussion page. Please see above Recent Changes (September 2007). Much of it is still current. For one, the lead section should not state the contra position, but rather the traditional doctrine.
"Clean up" should preserve content of merit, but transform what may now appear as rough diamonds obscured by polemic. "Clean up" should not be used as a cover for P.O.V. Thanks would be due whoever does it well. Elfelix ( talk) 19:22, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't "Apostolicity as doctrinal continuity" belong somewhere near the bottom of the article not straight after the intro? The section is long woolly and badly worded and not so directly relevant (it is a substitute doctrine really). -- BozMo talk 14:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
An IP editor just added (and I just removed, for want of reliable sources) "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also claims apostolic succession through an event which they claim occurred in the year 1830 when Peter, James, and John of the original Twelve Apostles visited the Prophet Joseph Smith and conferred the Melchizedek priesthood upon him by the laying on of hands. [1]"
The cited source is a draft article in another wiki, which I feel falls well short of the standards required by WP:V. I've moved it here rather than just deleting it because I see that there's been previous discussion of the LDS views, and it may be that other editors who've been around this article for longer than me can very quickly add a suitable reference that would allow the text to be reinstated. I'd also like to see mentioned, in the interest of maintaining a balanced article, whether this is a generally held view within the LDS or whether there are opposing views as well, as there seems to be some controversy about it.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Timberframe ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the section below because it seems to belong here, on the discussion page, rather than in the main article. It is apparently a response from a traditionalist Catholic to the summation of an article by an evangelical apologist, called "What Evangelicals Should Know About the Orthodox Church," that I put in the preceding section, together with some supporting links, to illustrate how evangelical Protestants dismiss the doctrine of Apostolic Succession.
I think that this addition to the article has two serious flaws, aside from its inappropriate style: it contains assertions that are plainly not true, and it speaks from a distinctly Catholic perspective.
The claim that Apostolic Succession only has to do with the sacramental authority of the bishops and has nothing to do with the bishop's teachings is plainly not the traditional understanding of large chunks of the ancient/medieval Christian world. The article itself notes that Eastern Orthodox claim Catholicism lost apostolic succession due to its doctrinal innovations. The Roman Catholic understanding may be that apostolic succession has nothing to do with sound doctrinal teaching - which strikes me as odd, since it would be tantamount to saying that the bishops aren't trustworthy pastors, which would undercut most of Catholicism's apologetics - but it is not the "traditional" understanding unless you consider Roman Catholicism to be "traditional" Christianity. Some doubtlessly do regard the RCC as the final authority on such matters, but that is not reason enough to put it in Wikipedia. I would allow that such a rejoinder can be put into the article if it as labeled as "the Catholic perspective," but not as simply "the traditional" one.
The claim that there are "thousands" of denominations that all started from doctrinal disagreements is also doubtful. Most denominations started simply due churches organizing themselves in a geographic area or among specific populations. Most congregational churches do not even have "denominations," but have simple networks that don't claim to be "churches" in the sense that Catholics use the word.-- ManicBrit ( talk) 19:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Commentary on semantics and on concord
The above contra position clearly rejects Apostolic Succession as traditionally understood (see above "The Traditional Doctrine"). Yet the contra position goes on to articulate an entirely new and completely different definition of Apostolic Succession, one that references loyalty to the teaching of the apostles. Thus "succession" would not in any way refer to which person will next occupy a leadership position in the church and its theological character, but instead refer to the theological understanding of the church based on its teachings. Of course, each church freely defines or redefines for itself its own understanding of any theological term it uses; in which case, confusion may result if it is not remembered that the same word or phrase may mean something entirely different.
Disagreement is extremely common among the various Protestant denominations as to the interpreted content of the Christian teaching that commands loyalty.
In the apostolic Christian view, disagreement also can result among traditionalists as to the identity of bishops under Apostolic Succession, but this rarely happens, and, even if it does, can quickly be dealt with by those of undisputed apostolic authority. Traditionalist Apostolic Succession does result in an ecclesiastical structure that provides the medium for settling many difficult matters regarding the interpreted content of Christian doctrine or teaching. Because of this, The apostolic churches remain far less divided than the Protestant denominations, which currently number in the thousands, and split often over doctrinal disputes.
this part needs expanded, there ARE other churches, such as I think? the chuch at antioch that claims succession to the throne of peter and paul, and I think? peter has another church that is not catholic. dava4444 @ 01.07.09 @11:48am /addition:could someone expend this to it's own page? with histories, traditions (verifiable), each Papal, Patriach, Catholicus degree, concering each other. thanks dava4444 @ 06.07.09 @19:17 gmt
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Timberframe ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I removed this section, which was an attempt by a Catholic apologist to downplay the doctrinal disagreements listed between Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, and Catholic churches:
Mormons and Unitarians are not Christians, but different religions. It is doubtful that Unitarians can even be categorized as "Abrahamic," since this sect looks to Buddhism, Wicca, atheist existentialist philosophies, and others sources besides the Bible. While the Mormons may try to label themselves Christian, they are most definitely not "Protestants" since they do not accept Sola Scriptura, but accept additional scriptures such as the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price. No mainstream Christian theological body regards the Mormons as a branch of the orthodox Christian tradition, even within the Protestant spectrum.
As a Protestant in the sola scriptura tradition, I can more easily categorize the Mormons as the same type of religion as Catholicism - it too is a religion led by an infallible religious officer, with priests who serve as mediators, and mysterious sacraments that are necessary for salvation. Like Catholicism's intellectualized, propositional Scholastic theology which rejects negative theological reflections and mystical approaches to God and asserts that God is an object of intellectual inquiry and verbal description, Mormonism posits a limited God who is material in nature. The attempts by Catholic Apologists to categorize Baptists and Evangelicals with Mormons and Moonies is either so misinformed that it means Catholic Apologists don't understand sola scriptura, or else it is a blatantly dishonest attempt to muddy terms and language so that criticisms of the Catholic Church cannot be clearly expressed and understood within the semantic limitations imposed on the minds of Catholics. In either case, since Mormons and Unitarians are irrelevant to discussions of Protestantism and sola scriptura, I have removed the paragraph.-- ManicBrit ( talk) 15:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I think we also need to be clear that despite the similarities in their names, and the fact that they are probably not considered "Protestants" or "mainstream Christians"—or even "Christians" at all—by some people, Unitarian Universalists and the Unification Church are not the same. The insertion of "Moonies," i.e., members of Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, into one of the responses above, which had up to that point only discussed the Mormons and the Unitarian Universalists, may make people believe there is some attempt to identify one with the other. 64.162.197.48 ( talk) 22:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Latest addition on Mormon interpretation of Jesus promises may sound harsh to some. I don't intend it to be NPOV, just trying to state an LDS view as accurately as possible (even though it is still kind of sketchy). Please feel free to edit tone, style etc. Thanks. B 01:31 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hi all, I have tagged this section as POV, but in fact POV is spread throughout the article, which overall is, imo, scrappy. Please help, but, again imo, the whole thing needs a re-write. Regards, Springnuts ( talk) 10:09, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
What I miss in the article is a discussion of the question of infallibility of apostolic succession. Does the doctrine of apostolic succession teach that apostolic succession has certain infallibility, and if so, in what sense is it infallible? Would the succession of the Roman Catholic popes be regarded as infallible from the Roman Catholic perspective? What is the spectrum of positions with respect to this question? How does the doctrine of apostolic succession relate to the principle of Sola Scriptura? Theophilius ( talk) 03:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
The Old Catholic Churches and the Liberal Catholic Churches claim to be apostolic, as far as I understand. I suppose that the Anglicans do accept at least those claims of the Union of Utrecht (Old Catholic), since they are in full communion with them. I remember from my own youth that liberal catholics tended to put quite some emphasis on their possession of apostolic succession.
There may be more "apostolic splinters" of this kind, which do not quite classify as "protestants", and absolutely not as "lutherans". I think they should be mentioned somewhere here. JoergenB ( talk) 21:57, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Why is there no history section? Was Irenaeus the first to hold this view? state this view? use the term? Who did? Exacly what it Irenaeus and others indicate? şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 23:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm a member of a church called Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, which holds regular performances of the Gnostic Mass and practices a religion called Thelema. Apostolic succession is a core belief in EGC, though we derive our succession from our Prophet Aleister Crowley (though, incidentally, we also have succession all the way from Paul). Our doctrine of apostolic succession is very similar to that of the Christians, so much so that I don't think it warrants its own article. Due to its importance to our religion, however, I do believe it warrants mention on Wikipedia. I'd like to add a section briefly mentioning that this concept is found outside of Christianity. If anyone here thinks that this warrants a separate article or should be handled differently, let's discuss it here.
One stated purpose of EGC is "...to restore Christianity to its real status as a solar-phallic religion," and as such, many of us consider our practices to be more authentically Christian than most Christian practices today.
- Nanamin ( talk) 00:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
It's important not to overstate the unanimity of opinion regarding the apostolic succession the Church of England throughout its history. The matter was greatly debated among Anglican divines in the 17th and 18th century, and was an especially fraught bone of contention during the Bangorian controversy and the debates regarding ersastianism in the early 18th century. Tory high churchmen and non-jurors strongly emphasized the apostolic succession--important to their vision of the integrity of the priestly office and the relative independence of the church from secular authority. In contrast, the whiggish, low-church opinion prevailing among the church hierarchy (especially bishops appointed under William and Mary and the early Hanoverian monarchs) in the 18th century tended to downplay or even deny the apostolic succession in favor of civil supremacy in ecclesiastical matters. For these erastians the right of ecclesiastical prerogative was not passed down through an unbroken line of bishops since the apostles, but was exercised by the sovereign as law-giver (on the order of moses). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.21.77 ( talk) 19:23, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
I see that my edit was immediately reverted, presumably because it was believed to be vandalism. What do other editors think of it? Esoglou ( talk) 08:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The lede defines "apostolic succession" as being a continuous succession from the Apostles down to the present. The sections on the Mormons and Thelema/E.C.G clearly state that their beliefs are very different, so it seems that logically they are out of place here in this article. Should they not be transferred to more appropriate locations with the corresponding disambiguations if necessary?
While on the subject of the lede I have amplified it to specify more clearly the basic understanding of the concept and the fact that some not all writers assert that "through consecration to the episcopal office they [bishops] inherit from the apostles the transmission of the Holy Ghost which empowers them for the performance of their work".
I will also try and work up the first part of the section on Anglican Churches bearing in mind the comments made on this page. Jpacobb ( talk) 01:32, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I have started a new section on the Early Church (it is at present hidden as a comment). When I have completed it, I will remove similar references in other sections unless they are vital to the argument at that particular point. The information on Anglicanism is inadequate, it even included contradictions and there is a certain amount of repetition. I have done a first round of tidying up but more remains to be done. I then intend to expand the Anglican section to cover the varying attitudes to A.S. Jpacobb ( talk) 22:39, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I have marked this as dubious since, whatever a couple of sources may say, it is hard to see how the Acts, passed in the second half of the 14th century, might be relevant since they were intended to limit legal appeals to the Bishop of Rome and the Vatican and Erasmas claimed to be a Greek Orthodox bishop. There is a reference in the 1393 act to "elsewhere"; but, even so, it would have been difficult for the Crown to prove that its justice or interests had been prejudiced within the meaning of the Act by the ordination of Wesley to the episcopate. Furthermore, as far as I can find out they had been dormant since the reign of James I. The most the historian can say, even if it is assumed the original source is correct, is that Wesley thought he might fall foul of the Praemunire Acts. Jpacobb ( talk) 04:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
At least it's concise now, but I challenge anyone to support the 2nd sentence from the sources 1 & 2. And what does "indirectly through the initiative of an apostolic see" mean, anyway?
I'm not looking up sources 3 and 4 because I really believe the 3rd sentence is too questionable to be in the lede. Whether the sources said it or not, I am inclined to amend this section by adding a counter-claim, but I think it wd b better to have that discussion elsewhere in the article. Vikslen ( talk) 00:33, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
The ODCC entry (I have the 3rd edition), in the 3rd sentence, states "These bishops have been regarded as succeeding the apostles because: (1) they perform the functions of the apostles; (2) their commission goes back to the apostles; (3) they succeed one another in the same sees ... and (4) by some writers because through their consecration ... they inherit from the apostles .. the Holy Spirit which empowers them."
However, "succeeding one another in the same sees" is not the most common understanding of apostolic succession. In the last several centuries it has usually been understood as a matter of succession from consecrating bishops (not usually or necessarily the predecessor in the same see) to the new bishop. This understanding is conveyed , I believe, by item 4 in the ODCC quote above, but is more clearly put in the Gonzalez reference (which may be viewed online). (I suspect the Catholic Encyclopedia states this as the main or only meaning....)
The sentence "Bishops are seen not as succeeding to the apostolic office" may be controverted and doesn't belong in this section. Item 1 from ODCC above appears to contradict it. comment added by Vikslen ( talk • contribs) 18:34, 15 September 2012 (UTC) Vikslen ( talk) 23:30, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
I leave it to Anupam to decide on second thoughts whether it was better to revert to duplicating the citation and quotation from Whalen, to giving the impression that British Methodists too petitioned to receive the sacraments from the local preachers who conducted worship services and revivals, to writing "Wesley assumed the power to ordained", "Holy Ghose" ... Esoglou ( talk) 20:10, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
erm.. why 'claims'? smacks of skepticism if you ask me. something neutral would be better.. I changed this once before but someone changed back. can we get consensus please?
Dava4444 ( talk) 20:43, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
An IP editor recently removed a section related to Richard McBrien without an explanation why. I'm opening this conversation in hopes to foster a discussion on this material. — Asterisk * Splat → 18:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
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Jay's The Church: its changing image through twenty centuries John Knox (1980) was first published by SPCK in two volumes (1977,1978) and there seems to be a numbering difference of a page or so between them. I have completed the title and adjusted the page numbering in some of the references given to the 1980 edition, but have not touched those dated 1977/8. -— Jpacobb ( talk) 02:15, 6 March 2018 (UTC)