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Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Webster's suggest spelling of postapocalyptic without the hyphen. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/postapocalyptic
Theking2 ( talk) 16:54, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "books.google.com":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 17:07, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
"The television series Defiance (2013–2015) is set in an Earth devastated by the "Pale Wars", a war with seven alien races referred to as the "Votan", followed by the "Arkfalls", which terraforms Earth to an almost unrecognizable state. Unlike most apocalyptic works, in this one Earth is not inhospitable, and humanity is not on the verge of extinction."
maybe transforming could be better than terraforming. Terra means earth in many languages derived from Latin. Transforming earth into earth makes no sense in that context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C5:C600:22D2:C514:C4B9:FB98:5903 ( talk) 23:17, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
So, here what happened:
1) I've
added entry on
13_Sentinels:_Aegis_Rim under "Pandemic -> DOOM Eternal".
2) It got immediately
almost completely removed with ambiguous description "rewrote 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim".
3) I've
reverted as per suggestions in
WP:BOLD and
WP:EDITWAR, saying: "undo: due to wanton nullification of contribution on a non-trivial example".
4) Reverter
added "Citation needed" sign without any further clarifications.
5) I've
added links and quotes to ending scenes describing my summary and its meaning verbosely, 8-hour analysis of it, interview with the writer & creator and producer of the game, review summary making the same point and quote from famous game director that recently made similarly lauded piece about same topic which would clear any possible questions about what's the point of that addition and why it's the way it is. Mainly that these points, pertaining to apocalyptic subject specifically, are something that many people don't get outright because they are told in fractured manner and not all in one place of a single paragraph or scene.
6) It got
fully reverted by other person with some kind of questionable accusations: "Reverting good faith edits. Poorly written, written in an encyclopaedic style, too much detail, written like a promotion of the subject. Need I say more (RW 16)"
Now. I've naively been under impression that encyclopedias are written in encyclopaedic style and that if something is "written poorly" then you supposed to point on exact "poor" qualities and/or fix them, not destroy additions and accuse contributors for them.
Not sure whose "good faith edits" were supposed to be and whose revert is "good" or "bad" supposed to be in that claim. "Too much detail" is pretty hypocritical because 1) it barely touches the subject of a massive story 2) right there below there are "War -> Metro 2033 & DOOM Eternal" entries that are just as big, even though it's not supposed to be a defining factor anyway, unlike usefulness in getting the point across.
As for "like a promotion", there is this thing called "passion" and "enthusiasm", it makes people do thing that are not directly beneficial, like writing clarification articles in their spare time on subjects they care about, making things instead of destroying them, trying to be useful instead of feeding on drama of being antagonistic in violation of
WP:BOLD and
WP:EDITWAR. guidelines they are supposedly "safekeeping" from "evil additioners".
But, apparently, here "good faith" is a den of destroyers nuking contributions and accusing contributors. It seems there were plenty reason for
Wikipedia:Why_is_Wikipedia_losing_contributors_-_Thinking_about_remedies#Deletionism and
Wikipedia:Content_removal articles being made, good thing I did not participate in this mess before and, likely, shouldn't bother ever again or promote others to try. Ironically, that this is kind of the reason for humanity's downfall in the discussed story.
DFX (
talk) 15:08, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
References
Multiple entries in this article are listed under the wrong subsection. For example, many of the entries in 'Comics' are actually to do with war while being listed under pandemic. This is prevalent throughout the article. Fones4jenke ( talk) 21:00, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect
Post-holocaust and has thus listed it
for discussion. This discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 21 § Post-holocaust until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
BDD (
talk) 17:09, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I just removed several lengthy bullet points for having been copied directly from Roger Ebert's review site, which, unless I'm mistaken, is very much not allowed. The entry on the Terminator is suspicious as well, but I can't currently confirm or deny. Movie reviews fall under copyrighted text, which has to be immediately removed, so do so if you notice it here. 192.77.12.11 ( talk) 12:55, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Post-apocalyptic fiction and apocalyptic fiction are no more similar than, say, science fiction and fantasy. I'm sure many would argue they're both just lame sub-genres of bad fiction, but I never expected the user-driven catalogue of information on wikipedia to fail so adeptly in this way. I am not pointing fingers--to many people I imagine these two sub-genres are "close enough." However! Apocalyptic fiction is, by necessity, during the apocalypse--at this stage the speculative world is still in flames, the conflict that led to the apocalyptic event either still raging on or only just having come to its conclusion; this means a story of war, conflict, destruction and death. More importantly it means that it has occurred while civilization (as a whole, which is to say the modern world with all its technological resources and government regulated infrastructure, etc.) yet shows signs of life. These stories, unless they span both genres and include a significant duration contemporary of the actual civilization-ending event and continue the story a whole generation later into the post-apocalypse era. Having a minute of the apocalypse at the beginning of a book would not be a an apocalyptic fiction, as it only uses the apocalypse to introduce and begin a post-apocalyptic story. Very rarely are these stories of hope, at least not for the characters forced to live through it (or die trying); if there is hope it's in the shape of an ellipsis, a to-be-continued, or perhaps in a pregnant woman escaping on a life-boat or some kids narrowly avoiding the blast or sickness or whatever--my point is that while there are some overlapping themes and perhaps even some moments on the apocalyptic timeline, the genres each cover a single era: one during and one after the civilization-ending event.
In contrast, post-apocalyptic fiction takes place in a vastly different world, one without any civilizations whatsoever remaining in tact--only groups of people that form small (relatively, comparing to the past) societies, which by definition are not civilizations but rather simply groups of interdependent people, a definition that suits almost any group of people larger than a single family unit. Tribes, for example, are societies. National geographic has a very helpful page (I just found it!) on what makes a civilization. After the apocalypse, it's gone. That means stories not of war, but rather of survival, rebuilding, renewal, and with any luck, some hope--a light at the end of the tunnel. Professorwilder ( talk) 03:50, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Webster's suggest spelling of postapocalyptic without the hyphen. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/postapocalyptic
Theking2 ( talk) 16:54, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "books.google.com":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 17:07, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
"The television series Defiance (2013–2015) is set in an Earth devastated by the "Pale Wars", a war with seven alien races referred to as the "Votan", followed by the "Arkfalls", which terraforms Earth to an almost unrecognizable state. Unlike most apocalyptic works, in this one Earth is not inhospitable, and humanity is not on the verge of extinction."
maybe transforming could be better than terraforming. Terra means earth in many languages derived from Latin. Transforming earth into earth makes no sense in that context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C5:C600:22D2:C514:C4B9:FB98:5903 ( talk) 23:17, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
So, here what happened:
1) I've
added entry on
13_Sentinels:_Aegis_Rim under "Pandemic -> DOOM Eternal".
2) It got immediately
almost completely removed with ambiguous description "rewrote 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim".
3) I've
reverted as per suggestions in
WP:BOLD and
WP:EDITWAR, saying: "undo: due to wanton nullification of contribution on a non-trivial example".
4) Reverter
added "Citation needed" sign without any further clarifications.
5) I've
added links and quotes to ending scenes describing my summary and its meaning verbosely, 8-hour analysis of it, interview with the writer & creator and producer of the game, review summary making the same point and quote from famous game director that recently made similarly lauded piece about same topic which would clear any possible questions about what's the point of that addition and why it's the way it is. Mainly that these points, pertaining to apocalyptic subject specifically, are something that many people don't get outright because they are told in fractured manner and not all in one place of a single paragraph or scene.
6) It got
fully reverted by other person with some kind of questionable accusations: "Reverting good faith edits. Poorly written, written in an encyclopaedic style, too much detail, written like a promotion of the subject. Need I say more (RW 16)"
Now. I've naively been under impression that encyclopedias are written in encyclopaedic style and that if something is "written poorly" then you supposed to point on exact "poor" qualities and/or fix them, not destroy additions and accuse contributors for them.
Not sure whose "good faith edits" were supposed to be and whose revert is "good" or "bad" supposed to be in that claim. "Too much detail" is pretty hypocritical because 1) it barely touches the subject of a massive story 2) right there below there are "War -> Metro 2033 & DOOM Eternal" entries that are just as big, even though it's not supposed to be a defining factor anyway, unlike usefulness in getting the point across.
As for "like a promotion", there is this thing called "passion" and "enthusiasm", it makes people do thing that are not directly beneficial, like writing clarification articles in their spare time on subjects they care about, making things instead of destroying them, trying to be useful instead of feeding on drama of being antagonistic in violation of
WP:BOLD and
WP:EDITWAR. guidelines they are supposedly "safekeeping" from "evil additioners".
But, apparently, here "good faith" is a den of destroyers nuking contributions and accusing contributors. It seems there were plenty reason for
Wikipedia:Why_is_Wikipedia_losing_contributors_-_Thinking_about_remedies#Deletionism and
Wikipedia:Content_removal articles being made, good thing I did not participate in this mess before and, likely, shouldn't bother ever again or promote others to try. Ironically, that this is kind of the reason for humanity's downfall in the discussed story.
DFX (
talk) 15:08, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
References
Multiple entries in this article are listed under the wrong subsection. For example, many of the entries in 'Comics' are actually to do with war while being listed under pandemic. This is prevalent throughout the article. Fones4jenke ( talk) 21:00, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect
Post-holocaust and has thus listed it
for discussion. This discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 21 § Post-holocaust until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
BDD (
talk) 17:09, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I just removed several lengthy bullet points for having been copied directly from Roger Ebert's review site, which, unless I'm mistaken, is very much not allowed. The entry on the Terminator is suspicious as well, but I can't currently confirm or deny. Movie reviews fall under copyrighted text, which has to be immediately removed, so do so if you notice it here. 192.77.12.11 ( talk) 12:55, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Post-apocalyptic fiction and apocalyptic fiction are no more similar than, say, science fiction and fantasy. I'm sure many would argue they're both just lame sub-genres of bad fiction, but I never expected the user-driven catalogue of information on wikipedia to fail so adeptly in this way. I am not pointing fingers--to many people I imagine these two sub-genres are "close enough." However! Apocalyptic fiction is, by necessity, during the apocalypse--at this stage the speculative world is still in flames, the conflict that led to the apocalyptic event either still raging on or only just having come to its conclusion; this means a story of war, conflict, destruction and death. More importantly it means that it has occurred while civilization (as a whole, which is to say the modern world with all its technological resources and government regulated infrastructure, etc.) yet shows signs of life. These stories, unless they span both genres and include a significant duration contemporary of the actual civilization-ending event and continue the story a whole generation later into the post-apocalypse era. Having a minute of the apocalypse at the beginning of a book would not be a an apocalyptic fiction, as it only uses the apocalypse to introduce and begin a post-apocalyptic story. Very rarely are these stories of hope, at least not for the characters forced to live through it (or die trying); if there is hope it's in the shape of an ellipsis, a to-be-continued, or perhaps in a pregnant woman escaping on a life-boat or some kids narrowly avoiding the blast or sickness or whatever--my point is that while there are some overlapping themes and perhaps even some moments on the apocalyptic timeline, the genres each cover a single era: one during and one after the civilization-ending event.
In contrast, post-apocalyptic fiction takes place in a vastly different world, one without any civilizations whatsoever remaining in tact--only groups of people that form small (relatively, comparing to the past) societies, which by definition are not civilizations but rather simply groups of interdependent people, a definition that suits almost any group of people larger than a single family unit. Tribes, for example, are societies. National geographic has a very helpful page (I just found it!) on what makes a civilization. After the apocalypse, it's gone. That means stories not of war, but rather of survival, rebuilding, renewal, and with any luck, some hope--a light at the end of the tunnel. Professorwilder ( talk) 03:50, 22 February 2023 (UTC)