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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I've read Succession box document, and I don't think it's necessary to have it in the page. Maybe when the editor added it, he/she had misundertood purpose of it. I've hidden it from displaying.
If you think I'm wrong, tell me why.
If some users revert my edit without disscussing in this talk page, I will revert to my revision.
If there's no problem with my decision, in 7 days starting from now, I (or other users) will remove it.
Sincerely. Ke ac lam viec tot ( talk) 14:25, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
This article contains a considerable amount of unreferenced material and original research ( WP:OR) and appears to be largely relying on 1 source (allkpop.com) . Unless some citations are found for both the Pre-Debut section and the first two paragraphs of the 2014 section, they will need a hefty copyedit. Not in the least as some of the material appears to be falling into the WP:TRIVIA bracket. Also, if individual members have been involved in other projects then this either has to be listed in a separate section or moved to the article dedicated to that individual. The inclusion of the Endorsements section is highly questionable and borders on WP:PROMO. Any suggestions? Karst ( talk) 09:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
@ Karst:The case about referencing Allkpop or Soompi is because that is where the majority of English-speakers/International fans go to for the K-pop news. But nowadays, I see mwave.interest.me as a better alternative. Actually all three websites translate directly from Korean-language news sources, but the latter website is a part of Mnet (TV channel) (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) and often indicates full credits to where the original sources come from, while the other two are basically blogs and most of the time do not indicate the original sources. Does anyone know any other good English websites (well not Koreaboo or Kpopstarz, etc.) that post K-pop news frequently? Or we can trace back to original Korean-language sources too (though that would take some work).-- TerryAlex ( talk) 01:28, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Karst: I think the fanclub information is fine the way it is, but it does need a reference (I also don't understand how WP:TRIVIA would apply). About removing the endorsements, I don't see how WP:PROMO applies. If the endorsements are notable, it seems like a section could be written about them. A Pink News was the show that introduced A Pink to the public, so I think it is fine to include some information about it if it is referenced. -- Random86 ( talk) 02:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
@ TerryAlex: You might want to take a look at WP:WikiProject Korea/Reliable sources. I've mostly been using Korea JoongAng Daily, The Korea Times, The Korea Herald (and its new site K-pop Herald) and Mwave. Also, Netizen Buzz can be useful for finding Korean sources. -- Random86 ( talk) 02:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Random86: Thank you so much for the list of websites, the KpopHerald would be useful for sure, but see, with regards to K-pop, of all the websites you listed, they tend to be on the more "reliable" side and don't contain a lot of Kpop news. Allkpop and Soompi are still the ones that have all the juicy gossips (latest news about music shows, top ranking songs, who is dating who, all the speculations, etc). And that is why they are being used the most and also the reason why they are unreliable as well. Regarding "Endorsement", I agree with including the notable ones, but then my question is: how do we really define "notable"? Celebrities just have too many endorsements, listing them out is more or less just advertising to me.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 02:31, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
An IP user created that section, and I deleted it. But, an user has reverted it and asked me to join a disscussion about a similar case. Now, I create this disscusion to ask:"Is it neccessary to have a section about controversies in A Pink?" Until we have a consensus about this case, no one edit content of that section. I have hid it before, if the answer is yes, it will be unhidden. Full content
Alleged plagiarism
A Pink has been the subject of a number of plagiarism accusations in their career. Among these is the similarity of their song "NoNoNo" to a first generation girl group S.E.S' song, the 2001 single, "Just In Love" from the album Surprise, which was pointed out by netizens and reported by South Korean news portal, TV Report.[43]
In June 2014, renowned choreographer Kyle Hanagami commented on Cube Entertainment using his work for a special performance of A Pink covering Beyoncé's "Partition" on You Hee-yeol's Sketchbook through his Twitter account. The choreographer addressed Cube Entertainment, and stated that he was "flattered, but credit really needs to be given where it's due.".[44]
They once again faced plagiarism accusations later in November when netizens pointed out similarities of their mini-album, Pink Luv's teasers with the work of fashion photographer, Michal Pudelka. As the controversy gained more attention, the group's company, A Cube Entertainment, released a statement, saying "We are very taken aback by these plagiarism accusations. We had no idea such photos existed. We were able to see the photos only after the controversy suddenly arose. It is definitely not the case that we worked with the photos at hand. While seeking out A Pink’s desired concept, it appears that a similar situation was staged."[45][46]
Everyone, let express your thoughts! K34c l4m v13c t0t 08:48, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
This information should stay because this is not a one-time incident and being repeatedly accused of plagiarism does affect their long-term legacy.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 17:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
-- Sonflower0210 ( talk) 14:16, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Read Karst's comment again. To add, without my vote, there are four people ( Karst, Random86, Chiya and TerryAlex) who are against the removal of the section, and apparently, four for it to be deleted. I don't have to point those out as well, do I? I still see it as properly sourced, and with the addition to the first issue in the section, it no longer goes against Wikipedia's NPOV. I've already stated that these could be incorporated into other sections of the article but I've yet to see other suggestions regarding this. Lone direwolf 18:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
You guys should have spoken up earlier, why waited until now? I don't know why the "Someday controversy" (not "Red Shoes") doesn't get a mention on Wikipedia, because it is obviously a big issue (this is what I mean when I say "as controversial as Paula Dean"), so maybe someone wants to add that to either IU or Park Jin-young's article. The other three...not so much, because either there were no concrete evidence, the agency has spoken up or it was just a one-time thing. Let me be clear and say that I'm not someone who likes to include every controversy on Wikipedia, I'm against it tbh (hence the RV's vote), I always try to stay as neutral as possible, but the reason why I voted to have this section stayed on here was because of the way the information was presented (the number of accusations...While the first is questionable despite being properly sourced, in the second the choreographer himself made the accusation and the last, the company released a statement which shows both sides of the issue). See, with SNSD, the CF song was rightly bought and SM didn't even bother to address the other two. For Shinee, SM made a statement clearing the issue. For the other 2 boy groups, it was just a one-time thing for both of them, it was more like a YG issue if we have to categorize it. But for A Pink, first, they had a choreographer accused them, second, although the picture issue sounded trivial to me, A Cube still had to make a statement regarding it, and with the addition of the first questionable issue. So while I might sound a bit contradictory here, (because in the A Pink's case, the agency has also spoken up and there was no concrete evidence either) but when we put all three events together like this, it made A Pink seems vulnerable. Do I make sense? But I do see your point though, A Pink aren't 100% liable whether the alleged plagiarisms are true or not so...if we want to remove the section, or maybe we can incorporate it into other sections on the page, that would be fine for me too.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 20:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I understand @ StrifeRaider:'s point of view and I reread the section: apparently the first two accusations were made but then ignored, while only the third was taken in more consideration. The case of the suspect similarity between "NoNoNo" and "Just In Love" reminds me when it was reported the similarity between Red Velvet's logo and Roncato Valigie's one: another statement that sounded more like a trivia than a proper accusation. Now I personally think that the "Alleged plagiarism" section should be removed and the third controversy incorporated in the paragraph about "Pink Luv". -- Chiya 92 10:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps something like this could be done.
First: Despite a considerable amount of criticism due to the song's similarity to the 2002 S.E.S single, "Just in Love", the song was well-received.
Seo Byeong-gi of The Herald Business later stated that although the two songs were similar, "NoNoNo" still had A Pink's distinctive sound. (<<<This could be added as well, but I just don't know how yet. Maybe something like "A Pink received a considerable amount of criticism due to the song's similarity to the 2002 S.E.S single, "Just in Love" but Seo Byeong-gi of The Herald Business later stated that although the two songs were similar, "NoNoNo" still had A Pink's distinctive sound." Then add the song's performance on the charts or any notable information during promotions for the album)
Second & Third: The group and company faced plagiarism accusations upon releasing teaser photos of the album because of its similarity to the work of photographer Michal Pudelka. This is the second time in the year that A Pink was accused of plagiarism after renowned choreographer Kyle Hanagami commented on Cube Entertainment using his work for a special performance of A Pink covering Beyoncé's "Partition" on You Hee-yeol's Sketchbook through his Twitter account in June. A Cube Entertainment released a statement saying "We are very taken aback by these plagiarism accusations. We had no idea such photos existed. We were able to see the photos only after the controversy suddenly arose. It is definitely not the case that we worked with the photos at hand. While seeking out A Pink’s desired concept, it appears that a similar situation was staged."
Please let me know what you think and what else could be done with this. Lone direwolf 10:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I think Karst wants to delete the section but keep the content as well. For me, I want to be fair so I will remove the first issue and only incorporate the other 2 into the article. Why? Because they were accused twice in a short time period. I stated my other reason above too, so I won't repeat. It's up to you guys now. I think the "draft" that you wrote looks good, Lonedirewoft.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 15:48, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
"Our [musical] color is similar to that of first generation idol groups. Since our style and songs are similar, there are many that say our songs overlap with S.E.S sunbaenims' music. We are also fans of S.E.S and since [those comparisons] signify that people are taking interest in us, we are thankful."
-- Random86 ( talk) 05:51, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
The votes won't do then. Right now I would like to see other suggestions on how to present the issues in a way all users can agree with. Perhaps something will come up that'll work. Lone direwolf 05:20, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Sonflower0210:, you might need to re-read my reply earlier. When I said A Pink case is "unique", I meant it's because both the company and the member herself have made a response regarding 2 of the issues. If they had not responded at all, then we can clearly argue that those 2 issues were trivial because they were merely accused by netizens without any proofs. However, because they have made those responses, those responses are the reason why the issues turned notable enough to be included. And even with them, we still cannot clearly verify that there was no plagiarism involved [Eunji's statement of "similarity between girl groups" is good, but it cannot verify that there was definitely no plagiarism]; therefore, even though I really want to help you, but I still cannot find a good argument to persuade other editors to get A Pink out of this.
In other cases, even though SNSD might have been accused three times, they did not respond to 2 of the issues, and the CF song was clarified to be copyrighted-ly bought. Same with Shinee, SM made this statement: "The song 'Dream Girl' was produced by famous producer Shin Hyuk and his production team, Joombas Music Factory. We did not buy any copyright or plagiarize anyone's songs. It is solely and fully an original SM song." Because of that, we cannot say that those two songs were plagiarism anymore. For the choreography issue, I stated before that it's more like a YG problem rather than the boy-groups themselves, but it's up to other editors to discuss how important this issue is. For Red Velvet's name, it seems like they have reached an agreement amicably, so I don't think we can call it a plagiarism. I'm not familiar with the logo issue nor IU's cases, so someone might want to comment on those. To conclude, my general stand is: If the issues are trivial, no proof, or already cleared, then there is no point to mention them.
A Pink fans, I hope you see my good intention here. If I can go back in time and find a good argument for A Pink, believe me I would, I genuinely think Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so I don't like to see every single trivial matter to be included on here either, but at this point in time, I don't think I can come up with a good argument to persuade other editors.
PS: I tend to be really long with my thoughts, I hope fellow editors don't get annoyed with me. I apologize.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 01:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
@
TerryAlex: I'm interested in what you have to say and you don't need to apologize. @
Sonflower0210: It does seem like there should be a clearer standard for what kinds of accusations should be included on Wikipedia. Some questions for everyone:
For points 1-2 I'm now thinking that accusations from anonymous netizens shouldn't be included (even if the group/company etc. responds) unless it can demonstrated that the accusations had a negative impact. I think this is the simplest solution, but I welcome other opinions. In Apink's case, that would result in issues 1 and 3 being removed. I also think maybe the second issue should be moved to Cube Entertainment, since they were the ones being addressed, not Apink. The issue with Ikon's choreography should definitely be included on iKON and/or YG Entertainment. -- Random86 ( talk) 03:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Multiple inputs help us to see the bigger picture here. Reopening this issue is quite helpful because I had to change my thoughts a few times. It can definitely set an example for future cases. For Sonflower0210's question, I say only proven plagiarism and (maybe some?) plagiarism accusations by copyright owner.
So as of now, I think we can agree on these two things:
Any accusation:
1. that has a negative impact such as proven plagiarism (lawsuits) must be mentioned
2. that was started by netizens, even with some sort of responses, can be omitted.
The discussion for now is what should we do with the accusations that were started by the copyright owner themselves:
1. with some responses
2. with no responses
3. no difference, we should just include them all
For cases that have been resolved, i don't think it makes any difference because it doesn't change the fact that the accusation happened. But we should say that it has been resolved and both party have come to agreement. Are you talking about the Red Velvet's name? that was originally not a plagiarism though. I don't see any other thing on our list that would apply to this at this moment. Everything else was pretty much started by the netizens. So I still see only three items that stood out to me: 1. someday lawsuit (which we have taken care of) 2. YG choreography 3. A Pink's choreography. -- TerryAlex ( talk) 21:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
The vast majority of these cases are not plagiarism. Just "controversies". Therefore the proposed rules about listing "proven plagiarism cases only" and only "proven plagiarism and plagiarism accusations made by copyright owner" won't work. I would even say the rule is a very good trick to delete all mention of all possible controversies related to copying some other artist from the article. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 11:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Moscow Connection:@ Random86:@ Sonflower0210: I disagree that all controversies should stay. Only notable ones should. K-pop netizens are very dramatic and ridiculous. I originally voted for this section to stay on this page, but now I have come to realize that this would just damage any particular artist's reputation for no reason. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place for every trivial matter to be on here. 10, 20 years from now, when a random reader reads a K-pop article, how do we want that particular artist to be remembered as? Have we done a good job illustrating that artist's overall "yet complete" career? The important question is their legacy, what do they leave behind? Not all those trivial matters. The problem with K-pop articles is that right now there are already way too many details that should not have been on Wikipedia in the first place, but not enough legacy-matters explained, but I won't go to that because that is for a separate discussion. It's the editors' jobs to document well those important accomplishment/failures that any particular artist has done. When I say "failures", I don't mean to include every single controversy on here, but lawsuits, or loss of endorsement deals due to public criticism (in the Crayon Pop's case) and stuff like that have negative impact on that artist, so obviously, they should be documented, but for everything else, there is just simply no proofs. I can be an anti-fan of some artist out there, and can get a whole bunch of my friends to go online and post false information about that artist. And that false information get caught by the media so it gets publicized to the public. Is it fair to document it on Wikipedia? No, let me repeat, it would just damage that artist's reputation for no reason. The problem with Internet is that it makes communication way too convenient and false information just spreads easily.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 16:09, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Moscow Connection:@ Random86:@ Sonflower0210: If you want to create a separate Wikipedia article that talks about the problem with K-pop artists often being accused of stuff, that is a different issue. But Kpop artists' reputations should not be damaged for no reason unless there is a severe evidence that says so. Netizens are not notable sources. And for your other question, I'm not an A Pink fan, so you might want to talk about that issue with Sonflower0210 (and some other editors), to have the general content on their page restructured, that is not my concern. I did cleaned out a lot of unnecessary stuff on their page earlier, but I'm not a fan so I couldn't say much about that and couldn't just come in and delete everything. And as you pointed out, this is why I'm saying that a lot of K pop articles are having this problem. I am only concerned about this discussion that we are having. I don't want to repeat, but Wikipedia is not a fanpage.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 18:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Moscow Connection: We certainly aren't trying to come up with a trick for removing controversial information from K-pop pages. I was trying to come up with a simple solution for how to deal with controversies, in particular, netizen controversies. I think the main issue is, how do we determine if something is notable or "noteworthy and relevant" (to quote the Wiki guideline)? I thought the rules we agreed on above was a simple solution. Another simple solution would be to include everything that has multiple reliable sources, no matter what it is. Despite what you might think, I'm not trying to remove information because I'm a fan. If you remember, I was the one who added most of the text about Crayon Pop's controversies. I just wanted some guidelines that could be applied to all K-pop pages so we don't have to have this same discussion over and over. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. -- Random86 ( talk) 20:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Dr.K.:@ Random86:, I don't know what you think Dr.K, but I think Random86's removal on Crayon Pop is reasonable.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 21:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Please use Crayon Pop's talk page for further discussion on the topic as this talk page is for this article, not a discussion on an general issue per WP:TALK#USE. Thank you. Rockysmile11 ( talk) 22:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
First, only content from reliable sources should be included ( WP:RS), especially in BLPs ( WP:BLP). (Whether these persons--I assume they are persons, not just dolls in dresses--wrote the song or not is to some extent immaterial, at least for me.) Such allegations require strong sourcing. The problem is, every single fart a K-pop artist makes is written up, and K-pop editors here include all of that material. So by having lowered the bar you all (most of you) have made it very difficult to have any kind of standard on what's reliable or not--once you incorporate the material from the publicity mill (allkpop, nate, soompi, koreaboo, and all those other fan/PR sites) you have no rationale in leaving any of it out. You made your bed and now you have to lie in it. In other words, even if the sourcing for this incident (or these incidents) is total crap, it doesn't matter, since most of the sourcing in these articles is crap.
The same applies to the other relevant policy, WP:UNDUE, which suggests that appropriate weight be given to material in relation to the rest of the article. There again, K-pop editors have done a terrible job upholding encyclopedic standards: you include not just every single fart (and every single variant spelling of someone's name), but even every single announcement of a video of a teaser of a performance in a mall of a comeback of a fart--"In early November, teaser images for the group's upcoming album were released". These very articles prove that everything is deemed notable (and don't tell me I'm wrong: I've been looking at the swamp of trivial factoids spun out into dozens of articles on We Got Married, a TV show of no consequence with K-pop performers of no consequence forming couples of no consequence). Well, that's fine: you all wanted fan pages, you got them. Problem is, again, you have no possible basis for excluding anything, since you leave everything in as a matter of course, claiming "it's all important".
Good luck. When the dust settles I'll be glad to have a look at the article, at which point I will enforce our BLP policy, and it is likely that I will simply remove the charges as "unreliably sourced". The only thing I wish to say here is, really, look at this discussion. A million people, a million comments, on a minor issue--you all discuss stuff in the exact same way you write these articles: all-inclusively, and no one can see the forest for the trees. Drmies ( talk) 16:47, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Drmies: I had a look at WP:BLPSPS and it says, "Never use self-published sources...as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject". WP:DOB says "Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object." Would you mind explaining how the group's official website doesn't qualify? Thanks. -- Random86 ( talk) 01:00, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
=More to the point, date of birth in K-pop seems to be a valuable commodity, and I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the information from the entertainment agency that owns these singers is accurate at all. Why would it be? There's an obvious value to the performers' youth. I would put more stock in, for instance, someone's own website. I think you underestimate to which extent "the group's official website" is simply a part of the marketing mechanism. But that's beside the more basic point, nowhere in Wikipedia do lists of members list dates of birth. Drmies ( talk) 01:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
The two first promoted together for "Short Hair" last year, and A Cube Entertainment has announced that they'll be working together for the project 'A Cube for Season #Sky Blue'." Besides not containing information on any chart topping, a "source" like that is simply not a source, since it seems to merely mimic a two-sentence press release. And that actually is not off-topic: the more I look at allkpop, the more I am convinced it cannot be used for sourcing BLPs and other articles. Thanks for pointing this out, Drmies ( talk) 18:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I've read Succession box document, and I don't think it's necessary to have it in the page. Maybe when the editor added it, he/she had misundertood purpose of it. I've hidden it from displaying.
If you think I'm wrong, tell me why.
If some users revert my edit without disscussing in this talk page, I will revert to my revision.
If there's no problem with my decision, in 7 days starting from now, I (or other users) will remove it.
Sincerely. Ke ac lam viec tot ( talk) 14:25, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
This article contains a considerable amount of unreferenced material and original research ( WP:OR) and appears to be largely relying on 1 source (allkpop.com) . Unless some citations are found for both the Pre-Debut section and the first two paragraphs of the 2014 section, they will need a hefty copyedit. Not in the least as some of the material appears to be falling into the WP:TRIVIA bracket. Also, if individual members have been involved in other projects then this either has to be listed in a separate section or moved to the article dedicated to that individual. The inclusion of the Endorsements section is highly questionable and borders on WP:PROMO. Any suggestions? Karst ( talk) 09:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
@ Karst:The case about referencing Allkpop or Soompi is because that is where the majority of English-speakers/International fans go to for the K-pop news. But nowadays, I see mwave.interest.me as a better alternative. Actually all three websites translate directly from Korean-language news sources, but the latter website is a part of Mnet (TV channel) (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) and often indicates full credits to where the original sources come from, while the other two are basically blogs and most of the time do not indicate the original sources. Does anyone know any other good English websites (well not Koreaboo or Kpopstarz, etc.) that post K-pop news frequently? Or we can trace back to original Korean-language sources too (though that would take some work).-- TerryAlex ( talk) 01:28, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Karst: I think the fanclub information is fine the way it is, but it does need a reference (I also don't understand how WP:TRIVIA would apply). About removing the endorsements, I don't see how WP:PROMO applies. If the endorsements are notable, it seems like a section could be written about them. A Pink News was the show that introduced A Pink to the public, so I think it is fine to include some information about it if it is referenced. -- Random86 ( talk) 02:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
@ TerryAlex: You might want to take a look at WP:WikiProject Korea/Reliable sources. I've mostly been using Korea JoongAng Daily, The Korea Times, The Korea Herald (and its new site K-pop Herald) and Mwave. Also, Netizen Buzz can be useful for finding Korean sources. -- Random86 ( talk) 02:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Random86: Thank you so much for the list of websites, the KpopHerald would be useful for sure, but see, with regards to K-pop, of all the websites you listed, they tend to be on the more "reliable" side and don't contain a lot of Kpop news. Allkpop and Soompi are still the ones that have all the juicy gossips (latest news about music shows, top ranking songs, who is dating who, all the speculations, etc). And that is why they are being used the most and also the reason why they are unreliable as well. Regarding "Endorsement", I agree with including the notable ones, but then my question is: how do we really define "notable"? Celebrities just have too many endorsements, listing them out is more or less just advertising to me.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 02:31, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
An IP user created that section, and I deleted it. But, an user has reverted it and asked me to join a disscussion about a similar case. Now, I create this disscusion to ask:"Is it neccessary to have a section about controversies in A Pink?" Until we have a consensus about this case, no one edit content of that section. I have hid it before, if the answer is yes, it will be unhidden. Full content
Alleged plagiarism
A Pink has been the subject of a number of plagiarism accusations in their career. Among these is the similarity of their song "NoNoNo" to a first generation girl group S.E.S' song, the 2001 single, "Just In Love" from the album Surprise, which was pointed out by netizens and reported by South Korean news portal, TV Report.[43]
In June 2014, renowned choreographer Kyle Hanagami commented on Cube Entertainment using his work for a special performance of A Pink covering Beyoncé's "Partition" on You Hee-yeol's Sketchbook through his Twitter account. The choreographer addressed Cube Entertainment, and stated that he was "flattered, but credit really needs to be given where it's due.".[44]
They once again faced plagiarism accusations later in November when netizens pointed out similarities of their mini-album, Pink Luv's teasers with the work of fashion photographer, Michal Pudelka. As the controversy gained more attention, the group's company, A Cube Entertainment, released a statement, saying "We are very taken aback by these plagiarism accusations. We had no idea such photos existed. We were able to see the photos only after the controversy suddenly arose. It is definitely not the case that we worked with the photos at hand. While seeking out A Pink’s desired concept, it appears that a similar situation was staged."[45][46]
Everyone, let express your thoughts! K34c l4m v13c t0t 08:48, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
This information should stay because this is not a one-time incident and being repeatedly accused of plagiarism does affect their long-term legacy.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 17:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
-- Sonflower0210 ( talk) 14:16, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Read Karst's comment again. To add, without my vote, there are four people ( Karst, Random86, Chiya and TerryAlex) who are against the removal of the section, and apparently, four for it to be deleted. I don't have to point those out as well, do I? I still see it as properly sourced, and with the addition to the first issue in the section, it no longer goes against Wikipedia's NPOV. I've already stated that these could be incorporated into other sections of the article but I've yet to see other suggestions regarding this. Lone direwolf 18:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
You guys should have spoken up earlier, why waited until now? I don't know why the "Someday controversy" (not "Red Shoes") doesn't get a mention on Wikipedia, because it is obviously a big issue (this is what I mean when I say "as controversial as Paula Dean"), so maybe someone wants to add that to either IU or Park Jin-young's article. The other three...not so much, because either there were no concrete evidence, the agency has spoken up or it was just a one-time thing. Let me be clear and say that I'm not someone who likes to include every controversy on Wikipedia, I'm against it tbh (hence the RV's vote), I always try to stay as neutral as possible, but the reason why I voted to have this section stayed on here was because of the way the information was presented (the number of accusations...While the first is questionable despite being properly sourced, in the second the choreographer himself made the accusation and the last, the company released a statement which shows both sides of the issue). See, with SNSD, the CF song was rightly bought and SM didn't even bother to address the other two. For Shinee, SM made a statement clearing the issue. For the other 2 boy groups, it was just a one-time thing for both of them, it was more like a YG issue if we have to categorize it. But for A Pink, first, they had a choreographer accused them, second, although the picture issue sounded trivial to me, A Cube still had to make a statement regarding it, and with the addition of the first questionable issue. So while I might sound a bit contradictory here, (because in the A Pink's case, the agency has also spoken up and there was no concrete evidence either) but when we put all three events together like this, it made A Pink seems vulnerable. Do I make sense? But I do see your point though, A Pink aren't 100% liable whether the alleged plagiarisms are true or not so...if we want to remove the section, or maybe we can incorporate it into other sections on the page, that would be fine for me too.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 20:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I understand @ StrifeRaider:'s point of view and I reread the section: apparently the first two accusations were made but then ignored, while only the third was taken in more consideration. The case of the suspect similarity between "NoNoNo" and "Just In Love" reminds me when it was reported the similarity between Red Velvet's logo and Roncato Valigie's one: another statement that sounded more like a trivia than a proper accusation. Now I personally think that the "Alleged plagiarism" section should be removed and the third controversy incorporated in the paragraph about "Pink Luv". -- Chiya 92 10:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps something like this could be done.
First: Despite a considerable amount of criticism due to the song's similarity to the 2002 S.E.S single, "Just in Love", the song was well-received.
Seo Byeong-gi of The Herald Business later stated that although the two songs were similar, "NoNoNo" still had A Pink's distinctive sound. (<<<This could be added as well, but I just don't know how yet. Maybe something like "A Pink received a considerable amount of criticism due to the song's similarity to the 2002 S.E.S single, "Just in Love" but Seo Byeong-gi of The Herald Business later stated that although the two songs were similar, "NoNoNo" still had A Pink's distinctive sound." Then add the song's performance on the charts or any notable information during promotions for the album)
Second & Third: The group and company faced plagiarism accusations upon releasing teaser photos of the album because of its similarity to the work of photographer Michal Pudelka. This is the second time in the year that A Pink was accused of plagiarism after renowned choreographer Kyle Hanagami commented on Cube Entertainment using his work for a special performance of A Pink covering Beyoncé's "Partition" on You Hee-yeol's Sketchbook through his Twitter account in June. A Cube Entertainment released a statement saying "We are very taken aback by these plagiarism accusations. We had no idea such photos existed. We were able to see the photos only after the controversy suddenly arose. It is definitely not the case that we worked with the photos at hand. While seeking out A Pink’s desired concept, it appears that a similar situation was staged."
Please let me know what you think and what else could be done with this. Lone direwolf 10:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I think Karst wants to delete the section but keep the content as well. For me, I want to be fair so I will remove the first issue and only incorporate the other 2 into the article. Why? Because they were accused twice in a short time period. I stated my other reason above too, so I won't repeat. It's up to you guys now. I think the "draft" that you wrote looks good, Lonedirewoft.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 15:48, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
"Our [musical] color is similar to that of first generation idol groups. Since our style and songs are similar, there are many that say our songs overlap with S.E.S sunbaenims' music. We are also fans of S.E.S and since [those comparisons] signify that people are taking interest in us, we are thankful."
-- Random86 ( talk) 05:51, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
The votes won't do then. Right now I would like to see other suggestions on how to present the issues in a way all users can agree with. Perhaps something will come up that'll work. Lone direwolf 05:20, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Sonflower0210:, you might need to re-read my reply earlier. When I said A Pink case is "unique", I meant it's because both the company and the member herself have made a response regarding 2 of the issues. If they had not responded at all, then we can clearly argue that those 2 issues were trivial because they were merely accused by netizens without any proofs. However, because they have made those responses, those responses are the reason why the issues turned notable enough to be included. And even with them, we still cannot clearly verify that there was no plagiarism involved [Eunji's statement of "similarity between girl groups" is good, but it cannot verify that there was definitely no plagiarism]; therefore, even though I really want to help you, but I still cannot find a good argument to persuade other editors to get A Pink out of this.
In other cases, even though SNSD might have been accused three times, they did not respond to 2 of the issues, and the CF song was clarified to be copyrighted-ly bought. Same with Shinee, SM made this statement: "The song 'Dream Girl' was produced by famous producer Shin Hyuk and his production team, Joombas Music Factory. We did not buy any copyright or plagiarize anyone's songs. It is solely and fully an original SM song." Because of that, we cannot say that those two songs were plagiarism anymore. For the choreography issue, I stated before that it's more like a YG problem rather than the boy-groups themselves, but it's up to other editors to discuss how important this issue is. For Red Velvet's name, it seems like they have reached an agreement amicably, so I don't think we can call it a plagiarism. I'm not familiar with the logo issue nor IU's cases, so someone might want to comment on those. To conclude, my general stand is: If the issues are trivial, no proof, or already cleared, then there is no point to mention them.
A Pink fans, I hope you see my good intention here. If I can go back in time and find a good argument for A Pink, believe me I would, I genuinely think Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so I don't like to see every single trivial matter to be included on here either, but at this point in time, I don't think I can come up with a good argument to persuade other editors.
PS: I tend to be really long with my thoughts, I hope fellow editors don't get annoyed with me. I apologize.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 01:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
@
TerryAlex: I'm interested in what you have to say and you don't need to apologize. @
Sonflower0210: It does seem like there should be a clearer standard for what kinds of accusations should be included on Wikipedia. Some questions for everyone:
For points 1-2 I'm now thinking that accusations from anonymous netizens shouldn't be included (even if the group/company etc. responds) unless it can demonstrated that the accusations had a negative impact. I think this is the simplest solution, but I welcome other opinions. In Apink's case, that would result in issues 1 and 3 being removed. I also think maybe the second issue should be moved to Cube Entertainment, since they were the ones being addressed, not Apink. The issue with Ikon's choreography should definitely be included on iKON and/or YG Entertainment. -- Random86 ( talk) 03:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Multiple inputs help us to see the bigger picture here. Reopening this issue is quite helpful because I had to change my thoughts a few times. It can definitely set an example for future cases. For Sonflower0210's question, I say only proven plagiarism and (maybe some?) plagiarism accusations by copyright owner.
So as of now, I think we can agree on these two things:
Any accusation:
1. that has a negative impact such as proven plagiarism (lawsuits) must be mentioned
2. that was started by netizens, even with some sort of responses, can be omitted.
The discussion for now is what should we do with the accusations that were started by the copyright owner themselves:
1. with some responses
2. with no responses
3. no difference, we should just include them all
For cases that have been resolved, i don't think it makes any difference because it doesn't change the fact that the accusation happened. But we should say that it has been resolved and both party have come to agreement. Are you talking about the Red Velvet's name? that was originally not a plagiarism though. I don't see any other thing on our list that would apply to this at this moment. Everything else was pretty much started by the netizens. So I still see only three items that stood out to me: 1. someday lawsuit (which we have taken care of) 2. YG choreography 3. A Pink's choreography. -- TerryAlex ( talk) 21:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
The vast majority of these cases are not plagiarism. Just "controversies". Therefore the proposed rules about listing "proven plagiarism cases only" and only "proven plagiarism and plagiarism accusations made by copyright owner" won't work. I would even say the rule is a very good trick to delete all mention of all possible controversies related to copying some other artist from the article. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 11:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Moscow Connection:@ Random86:@ Sonflower0210: I disagree that all controversies should stay. Only notable ones should. K-pop netizens are very dramatic and ridiculous. I originally voted for this section to stay on this page, but now I have come to realize that this would just damage any particular artist's reputation for no reason. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place for every trivial matter to be on here. 10, 20 years from now, when a random reader reads a K-pop article, how do we want that particular artist to be remembered as? Have we done a good job illustrating that artist's overall "yet complete" career? The important question is their legacy, what do they leave behind? Not all those trivial matters. The problem with K-pop articles is that right now there are already way too many details that should not have been on Wikipedia in the first place, but not enough legacy-matters explained, but I won't go to that because that is for a separate discussion. It's the editors' jobs to document well those important accomplishment/failures that any particular artist has done. When I say "failures", I don't mean to include every single controversy on here, but lawsuits, or loss of endorsement deals due to public criticism (in the Crayon Pop's case) and stuff like that have negative impact on that artist, so obviously, they should be documented, but for everything else, there is just simply no proofs. I can be an anti-fan of some artist out there, and can get a whole bunch of my friends to go online and post false information about that artist. And that false information get caught by the media so it gets publicized to the public. Is it fair to document it on Wikipedia? No, let me repeat, it would just damage that artist's reputation for no reason. The problem with Internet is that it makes communication way too convenient and false information just spreads easily.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 16:09, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Moscow Connection:@ Random86:@ Sonflower0210: If you want to create a separate Wikipedia article that talks about the problem with K-pop artists often being accused of stuff, that is a different issue. But Kpop artists' reputations should not be damaged for no reason unless there is a severe evidence that says so. Netizens are not notable sources. And for your other question, I'm not an A Pink fan, so you might want to talk about that issue with Sonflower0210 (and some other editors), to have the general content on their page restructured, that is not my concern. I did cleaned out a lot of unnecessary stuff on their page earlier, but I'm not a fan so I couldn't say much about that and couldn't just come in and delete everything. And as you pointed out, this is why I'm saying that a lot of K pop articles are having this problem. I am only concerned about this discussion that we are having. I don't want to repeat, but Wikipedia is not a fanpage.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 18:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Moscow Connection: We certainly aren't trying to come up with a trick for removing controversial information from K-pop pages. I was trying to come up with a simple solution for how to deal with controversies, in particular, netizen controversies. I think the main issue is, how do we determine if something is notable or "noteworthy and relevant" (to quote the Wiki guideline)? I thought the rules we agreed on above was a simple solution. Another simple solution would be to include everything that has multiple reliable sources, no matter what it is. Despite what you might think, I'm not trying to remove information because I'm a fan. If you remember, I was the one who added most of the text about Crayon Pop's controversies. I just wanted some guidelines that could be applied to all K-pop pages so we don't have to have this same discussion over and over. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. -- Random86 ( talk) 20:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Dr.K.:@ Random86:, I don't know what you think Dr.K, but I think Random86's removal on Crayon Pop is reasonable.-- TerryAlex ( talk) 21:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Please use Crayon Pop's talk page for further discussion on the topic as this talk page is for this article, not a discussion on an general issue per WP:TALK#USE. Thank you. Rockysmile11 ( talk) 22:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
First, only content from reliable sources should be included ( WP:RS), especially in BLPs ( WP:BLP). (Whether these persons--I assume they are persons, not just dolls in dresses--wrote the song or not is to some extent immaterial, at least for me.) Such allegations require strong sourcing. The problem is, every single fart a K-pop artist makes is written up, and K-pop editors here include all of that material. So by having lowered the bar you all (most of you) have made it very difficult to have any kind of standard on what's reliable or not--once you incorporate the material from the publicity mill (allkpop, nate, soompi, koreaboo, and all those other fan/PR sites) you have no rationale in leaving any of it out. You made your bed and now you have to lie in it. In other words, even if the sourcing for this incident (or these incidents) is total crap, it doesn't matter, since most of the sourcing in these articles is crap.
The same applies to the other relevant policy, WP:UNDUE, which suggests that appropriate weight be given to material in relation to the rest of the article. There again, K-pop editors have done a terrible job upholding encyclopedic standards: you include not just every single fart (and every single variant spelling of someone's name), but even every single announcement of a video of a teaser of a performance in a mall of a comeback of a fart--"In early November, teaser images for the group's upcoming album were released". These very articles prove that everything is deemed notable (and don't tell me I'm wrong: I've been looking at the swamp of trivial factoids spun out into dozens of articles on We Got Married, a TV show of no consequence with K-pop performers of no consequence forming couples of no consequence). Well, that's fine: you all wanted fan pages, you got them. Problem is, again, you have no possible basis for excluding anything, since you leave everything in as a matter of course, claiming "it's all important".
Good luck. When the dust settles I'll be glad to have a look at the article, at which point I will enforce our BLP policy, and it is likely that I will simply remove the charges as "unreliably sourced". The only thing I wish to say here is, really, look at this discussion. A million people, a million comments, on a minor issue--you all discuss stuff in the exact same way you write these articles: all-inclusively, and no one can see the forest for the trees. Drmies ( talk) 16:47, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Drmies: I had a look at WP:BLPSPS and it says, "Never use self-published sources...as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject". WP:DOB says "Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object." Would you mind explaining how the group's official website doesn't qualify? Thanks. -- Random86 ( talk) 01:00, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
=More to the point, date of birth in K-pop seems to be a valuable commodity, and I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the information from the entertainment agency that owns these singers is accurate at all. Why would it be? There's an obvious value to the performers' youth. I would put more stock in, for instance, someone's own website. I think you underestimate to which extent "the group's official website" is simply a part of the marketing mechanism. But that's beside the more basic point, nowhere in Wikipedia do lists of members list dates of birth. Drmies ( talk) 01:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
The two first promoted together for "Short Hair" last year, and A Cube Entertainment has announced that they'll be working together for the project 'A Cube for Season #Sky Blue'." Besides not containing information on any chart topping, a "source" like that is simply not a source, since it seems to merely mimic a two-sentence press release. And that actually is not off-topic: the more I look at allkpop, the more I am convinced it cannot be used for sourcing BLPs and other articles. Thanks for pointing this out, Drmies ( talk) 18:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)