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User:Dhammapal and I have discussed briefly the desire to expand the article. While I will address one specific point under a separate header below, I'd like to here discuss different ways to expand this article's text regarding the overall concept of "gradual training."
For starters, I'd like to reference information provided by Bhikkhu Bodhi (In the Buddha's Words, 2005, Boston: Wisdom Publications, p. 226) that might provide an alternate secondary source as well as the basis for pursing multiple primary sources:
These discourse could likely be tracked down on Access to Insight (ATI) and information from them incorporated into this article accordingly. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 05:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dhammapal -
As you know, Sacca and I have talked about writing an article on this topic a while ago but neither of us has had the time and driving interest to fully pursue it. This is still true, but I support your doing so and am more than willing to help out with some references, etc.
I'd like to take a moment to discuss your interest in the above Nyanatiloka quote, especially in light of the skillful distinction you've made recently between facts and presentation. I'm wondering what are the facts in the Nyanaponika text that you wish to capture and can we separate them from his presentation. For instance, when I quickly review the material you cite, I see the following "facts":
Just stated as above, I think these "facts" (or, more specifically, published assertions) can now be inserted into or otherwise used in the article in various ways. For instance:
Does this make sense? Let me know if you'd like me to go ahead and implement this. More importantly, I hope this provides an example of how one can look at a useful source, extract from it pertinent facts and then use them in a WP article.
Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 00:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
In our personal talk page discussions, User:Dhammapal noted the scarcity of information regarding the concept of adinava (drawbacks), while also noting its being mentioned in MN 54 (e.g., Thanissaro, 2003). I'd like to mention two additional sources for information on this word:
(1) the on-line PTS Pali-English Dictionary (PED) ( http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html):
(2) the on-line La Trobe U. search engine for the Sinhala edition of Pali literature ( http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/pali.htm):
I hope this makes sense and might be of use, both here and more generally. Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 05:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
MN 125: Dantabhumi Sutta at Access to Insight (Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner)
Then the three knowledges, te-vijja
Dhammapal: Are Recollection of past lives and the Divine Eye a prerequisite for Enlightenment? Thanks Dhammapal 02:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Larry, Sorry I haven’t checked in for a few days (the carpet is laid but needs adjusting so I haven’t got my bookshelf back for my Majjhima). MN107 sounds great, although Horner’s translation on Access to Insight sounds dated. This project will help me with my own practice. With metta, Dhammapal ( talk) 11:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Why single out 1 sutta? There are numerous variations on the path: see Dialogues of the Buddha, volume I, intro to Samannaphala, for discussion of a number. Peter jackson 11:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
This article's original focus was on ānupubbī-kathā. The ever eloquent User:Langdell changed the intro (in addition to introducing interesting text from the Udana, etc.) so that the focus became anupubba-sikkhā, shifting ānupubbī-kathā to a specific way of teaching this sikkhā. So, I ask, which should be the lead for this article?
In the meantime, I've put the intro's focus back on ānupubbī-kathā for the following reasons:
I'm way open to being persuaded that I'm wrong here but ask that we discuss it rationally and reach consensus before future reversions of the article's original intent.
With metta,
Larry Rosenfeld (
talk)
06:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Larry,
Thanks for all your efforts. Sounds OK to me. A lot of work went into the Notes section. Interesting topic. Metta / Dhammapal ( talk) 09:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Langdell is of course perfectly correct, as you seem to have agreed. May I add a couple of things that may be relevant?
If you look at the contexts in which anupubbikatha occurs, you'll find that the hearer of the discourse always attains some sort of enlightenment at the end of it, without actually practising any of it. I don't know whether any reliable source has anything to say on this point.
It's not clear from the wording how far the anupubbikatha goes. It obviously includes dana, sila & sagga, but does it also cover some or all of the later stages mentioned? According to the Netti, & I think the Petaka, it covers everything before the 4 NTs, but not those. This is the interpretation followed in the (New) Penguin Handbook of Living Religions. Peter jackson ( talk) 18:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
When I said above that I didn't know whether any reliable source had anything to say on that point, I'd forgotten Masefield, Divine Revelation in Pali Buddhism, which has a lot; far too much, in fact. Peter jackson ( talk) 16:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Just to let you know: the word katha means 'talk' in Pali. The word sikha means training. The confusion about gradual training seems to have arisen because of the phrase 'gradual instruction' which is a legitimate translation of annupubbikatha. The 'gradual training' (annupubisikha) is a euphemism for dhammavinaya or buddhadharma in totum wheras annupubikatha means step-by-step talk. 81.107.150.246 ( talk) 21:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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|
User:Dhammapal and I have discussed briefly the desire to expand the article. While I will address one specific point under a separate header below, I'd like to here discuss different ways to expand this article's text regarding the overall concept of "gradual training."
For starters, I'd like to reference information provided by Bhikkhu Bodhi (In the Buddha's Words, 2005, Boston: Wisdom Publications, p. 226) that might provide an alternate secondary source as well as the basis for pursing multiple primary sources:
These discourse could likely be tracked down on Access to Insight (ATI) and information from them incorporated into this article accordingly. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 05:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dhammapal -
As you know, Sacca and I have talked about writing an article on this topic a while ago but neither of us has had the time and driving interest to fully pursue it. This is still true, but I support your doing so and am more than willing to help out with some references, etc.
I'd like to take a moment to discuss your interest in the above Nyanatiloka quote, especially in light of the skillful distinction you've made recently between facts and presentation. I'm wondering what are the facts in the Nyanaponika text that you wish to capture and can we separate them from his presentation. For instance, when I quickly review the material you cite, I see the following "facts":
Just stated as above, I think these "facts" (or, more specifically, published assertions) can now be inserted into or otherwise used in the article in various ways. For instance:
Does this make sense? Let me know if you'd like me to go ahead and implement this. More importantly, I hope this provides an example of how one can look at a useful source, extract from it pertinent facts and then use them in a WP article.
Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 00:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
In our personal talk page discussions, User:Dhammapal noted the scarcity of information regarding the concept of adinava (drawbacks), while also noting its being mentioned in MN 54 (e.g., Thanissaro, 2003). I'd like to mention two additional sources for information on this word:
(1) the on-line PTS Pali-English Dictionary (PED) ( http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html):
(2) the on-line La Trobe U. search engine for the Sinhala edition of Pali literature ( http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/pali.htm):
I hope this makes sense and might be of use, both here and more generally. Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 05:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
MN 125: Dantabhumi Sutta at Access to Insight (Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner)
Then the three knowledges, te-vijja
Dhammapal: Are Recollection of past lives and the Divine Eye a prerequisite for Enlightenment? Thanks Dhammapal 02:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Larry, Sorry I haven’t checked in for a few days (the carpet is laid but needs adjusting so I haven’t got my bookshelf back for my Majjhima). MN107 sounds great, although Horner’s translation on Access to Insight sounds dated. This project will help me with my own practice. With metta, Dhammapal ( talk) 11:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Why single out 1 sutta? There are numerous variations on the path: see Dialogues of the Buddha, volume I, intro to Samannaphala, for discussion of a number. Peter jackson 11:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
This article's original focus was on ānupubbī-kathā. The ever eloquent User:Langdell changed the intro (in addition to introducing interesting text from the Udana, etc.) so that the focus became anupubba-sikkhā, shifting ānupubbī-kathā to a specific way of teaching this sikkhā. So, I ask, which should be the lead for this article?
In the meantime, I've put the intro's focus back on ānupubbī-kathā for the following reasons:
I'm way open to being persuaded that I'm wrong here but ask that we discuss it rationally and reach consensus before future reversions of the article's original intent.
With metta,
Larry Rosenfeld (
talk)
06:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Larry,
Thanks for all your efforts. Sounds OK to me. A lot of work went into the Notes section. Interesting topic. Metta / Dhammapal ( talk) 09:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Langdell is of course perfectly correct, as you seem to have agreed. May I add a couple of things that may be relevant?
If you look at the contexts in which anupubbikatha occurs, you'll find that the hearer of the discourse always attains some sort of enlightenment at the end of it, without actually practising any of it. I don't know whether any reliable source has anything to say on this point.
It's not clear from the wording how far the anupubbikatha goes. It obviously includes dana, sila & sagga, but does it also cover some or all of the later stages mentioned? According to the Netti, & I think the Petaka, it covers everything before the 4 NTs, but not those. This is the interpretation followed in the (New) Penguin Handbook of Living Religions. Peter jackson ( talk) 18:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
When I said above that I didn't know whether any reliable source had anything to say on that point, I'd forgotten Masefield, Divine Revelation in Pali Buddhism, which has a lot; far too much, in fact. Peter jackson ( talk) 16:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Just to let you know: the word katha means 'talk' in Pali. The word sikha means training. The confusion about gradual training seems to have arisen because of the phrase 'gradual instruction' which is a legitimate translation of annupubbikatha. The 'gradual training' (annupubisikha) is a euphemism for dhammavinaya or buddhadharma in totum wheras annupubikatha means step-by-step talk. 81.107.150.246 ( talk) 21:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:38, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
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