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Hey Eupator, I have several excellently pristine, authentic photographs of Andranik dating back to the early 1900s of Andranik and I'll try to find the best one to upload here.
Regards-- MarshallBagramyan 04:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Mixed feelings on how successful of a commander he was or mixed feelings about him per se? I always saw him as the amiable, little Armenian grandpa in his pictures.-- MarshallBagramyan 22:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 14:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Some parts of new addings are dubious or historically not correct so its preferable to discuss these addings at first:
Summaty: this variant is dubious and must be explained and at least partially reverted to the prev. more correct encyclopedic style-version. Andranikpasha ( talk) 16:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Removed OR that equals to vandalism and breaks WP:WTA - Fedayee ( talk) 21:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter where the hero was born. The only thing that counts is the most common spelling in English literature: “andranik+ozanian” has 92 hits at Google Books and 9290 hits at google.com, while “antranik+ozanian” 31 and 833, respectively. Besides, Western Armenian form would be Antranig, not Antranik, and it too has much fewer hits than the Eastern Armenian form. -- Vahagn Petrosyan ( talk) 18:52, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Antranig!!! Pesheker ( talk) 12:57, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 17:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Andranik Toros Ozanian →
Andranik Ozanian – per
WP:COMMONNAME
Google Books Search
-- Yerevanci ( talk) 21:46, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
-- Takabeg ( talk) 04:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
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Hey, so the first issue brought up by you was his nickname Shapinad. I agree that the only place Shapinand is used is Dashtents's novel, but first of all that novel is a non-fiction, second, Khachik Dashtents wrote it after interactions with many of Andranik's comrades such as Makhluto, who was next to him almost all his life. I don't see any reason, why this shouldn't be added as his nickname.
Second, the issue of using the Dashnak symbol for Armenian militia. He left the Hunchakian party in 1894 and joined Dashnaks and he started his revolutionary/fedayee activities in 1895 (a year later after joining ARF) and he was a Dashnak, not Hunchak or Armenakan, when being a militia member. I think this makes sense. -- Yerevanci ( talk) 16:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Is the poster influenced more by Uncle Sam, or by the original featuring
Lord Kitchener?
Varlaam (
talk)
09:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
A quote from Bloxham: "From mid-1918, Andranik was prominent in the destruction of Muslim settlements during the purging of the Armenian-Azeri border region of Zangezur. Hovannisian describes his actions as the beginning of the process of 'transforming Zangezur into a solidly Armenian land'." Parishan ( talk) 18:39, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
You forgot to outline one more important point: Bloxham agrees this was ethnic cleansing when he says "accurately describes", which is quite a serious interpretation of Andranik's actions. I believe that should not be omitted.
Otherwise I generally agree with your wording, except one important point. The meaning of the term 'deportation' lies very far from the meanings of the words 'destruction' and 'eviction' which Bloxham uses. In other words, it is too soft and rather inaccurate a word to summarise what was being done to the Muslims in Zangezur according to the author. It can be applied but loosely to the events taking place in the region at the time. We could drop the word 'eviction', because the term 'ethnic cleansing' already presupposes that, but the word 'destruction' should be kept.
So here is what I suggest: "After Armenia's declaration of Independence in May 1918, Andranik fought in Nakhchivan, Karabakh and Zangezur against the Azerbaijani and Turkish forces. His policy in Zangezur involved the ethnic cleansing of the local Muslim population and the destruction of their settlements, which were then repopulated with some 30,000 Armenians from Mush and Bitlis (many of them were later transferred to Erivan and Daralagiaz) in order to homogenize key areas of the Armenian state." Parishan ( talk) 04:21, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://books.google.com/books?id=WSl4JW5hQewC. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. VernoWhitney ( talk) 16:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
First of all, Day.az is not nationalist. It is simply Azerbaijani. And it is only used here to illustrated the Azerbaijani point of view. Secondly, you cannot delete an entire paragraph based on your criticism of only one source that it contains. With it, you are reverting established and recognized sources, such as Bloxham and Hovannisian. Parishan ( talk) 08:23, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I do not see how saying "celebrates" is nationalist. The agency simply reports on the attitude of the Azerbaijani government with regard to the event. The "military aggression against Armenia and Karabakh" is your own POV, and disagreeing with it does not mean being nationalist.
The "reliable" materials you added are Antranig Chalabian, a historian with a degree from the Yerevan State University, who refers to Azerbaijanis as "Tatar bandits". Now, that is nationalist. Furthermore, presenting his opinion as primary is unacceptable; most sources agree that in 1918, Azeris were either expelled or massacred in Zangezur and all across Armenia: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], so Chalabian's view is WP:UNDUE. You cannot simply state that Chalabian believes so, but David Bloxham holds a different opinion, because the two sources are not equal in either notability or lack of bias. I also question your removal of the term "ethnic cleansing" that Bloxham used to refer to what happened in Zangezur. Parishan ( talk) 08:44, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
How can Chalabian be "the most reliable source", if he is endorsed by an Armenian state-funded university? Even the wording he uses is biased. Also, you never explained why you keep removing the term "ethnic cleansing" from the article.
Conflicts.rem33 is in fact very reliable: the article there is written by Dr. Andrew Andersen, former professor of Simon Frazer University and the University of Victoria and currently a research fellow at the University of Calgary. Cegharkon is notable in that in quotes an existing document from Soviet archives, to which the reference is provided. Anyway, I listed the sources to demonstrate that the Azeri exodus and killings in Zangezur were a commonplace occurence in 1918–1920. If that is not convincing, I can quote Richard Hovannisian: "When he encountered a Turkish division near Julfa, Andranik backtracked and ascended into the highlands of Zangezur, where for the duration of the world war he overran one Muslim village after another" [6].
If you have problems with Day.az as an Azerbaijani source, I suggest we use academic Azerbaijani sources, such as Anar Isgandarli and Tofig Kocharli, to illustrate the Azerbaijani view on the issue.
Isgandarli: "A report by the commission stated that 115 Muslim villages in the Zangezur uyezd were reduced to the ground by the Armenians; the names of the ruined villages are provided therein. [goes into the description of the atrocities] These episodes were realized in Zangezur under the direct command of Andranik during summer and fall of 1918." [7] (p. 123)
Kocharli: "As said by the Prime Minister of Azerbaijan F.Kh.Khoyski, on July 1918, Andranik "by doing terrible evils in Zangezur destoyed many villages and, finally, by crossing to the Shusha uezd, block the road to Asgaran..." The Azerbaijani Armed Forces were then focused exclusively on the Baku problem." [8] (p. 26)
I would like you to comment on this, and if we still disagree, we can ask a third party to join. Parishan ( talk) 09:17, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
The fact that Chalabian received a diploma from Armenia only goes to show that how biased his opinion is, because Armenian sources are not third-party in this case. Wikipedia describes Chalabian as a "medical illustrator", and I do not see any evidence of proper training in history. He is not a qualified historian, more like an amateur. "Honorary doctorate" is not even an academic degree. Heck, Ilham Aliyev is an honorary doctor of over 20 universities in Azerbaijan and abroad. [9] Does that make him an academic authority? Is it really so difficult to understand that someone with Chalabian's qualifications and approach is no equal to someone like Donald Bloxham, a professor from the University of Edinburgh and a notable expert on genocide issues? I should even insist on Chalabian's complete removal from the article, now that we have established he is not even a scholar.
As for the Azerbaijani sources, no one is expected to agree with them. They are simply to show that this is what the Azerbaijanis believe. Isgandarli holds a Ph.D. degree [10] and is chair of the department of historical methodology at Baku State University. [11]. The late Tofig Kocharli was also an acclaimed historian in Azerbaijan and member of the Azerbaijan National Academy of Sciences.
I was not pushing for the inclusion of information about massacres. Both Hovannisian and Bloxham mention the destruction of Muslim villages, and Bloxham further describes it as an act of ethnic cleansing (and he is perfectly qualified to do so, unlike Chalabian). That is all. And that is exactly what the article said before you started meddling in the text. Parishan ( talk) 10:08, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Anyone with a Ph.D. in history is definitely tons more reliable than a medical illustrator who writes quasi-historical essays for fun. Before we invite a third party, I would like you to answer this question: what scientific background does Chalabian have? It would be nice to see some degree in history-related fields, examples of relevant scienfitic publications and, if possible, peer reviews. Once we establish that Chalabian and Bloxham are of the same weight, we can invite a third party. Parishan ( talk) 05:50, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Moved for lack of opposition to the proposal. Note: I have moved the existing page to Andranik (given name), as the usage is unambiguous, and moving it to a disambiguation page would require stripping all information about the name itself, per MOSDAB. bd2412 T 19:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Andranik Ozanian → Andranik – WP:COMMONNAME Երևանցի talk 02:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC) He is widely known by his first name only. See Mononymous person.
Conclusion: All major academic sources prefer to use just "Andranik" rather than Andranik Ozanian. -- Երևանցի talk 02:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
"The most famous of the Armenian guerrilla fighters, although not necessarily the most important"
Can we remove this line? The only fedayi who really has a good argument for being more important than Andranik is Nzhdeh, and combined with how Libaridian didn't go into detail on why Andranik isn't important or whatever he meant, this sentence doesn't carry much weight. -- Steverci ( talk) 14:58, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
"Ozanian was Commander-in-Chief of the allied forces in the Near East in the early part of the World War. He relinquished the command to General Allenby of the English forces and returned to the command of the Armenian Army." [20]
Should any mention of this title be made? -- Steverci ( talk) 23:04, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
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Hey Eupator, I have several excellently pristine, authentic photographs of Andranik dating back to the early 1900s of Andranik and I'll try to find the best one to upload here.
Regards-- MarshallBagramyan 04:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Mixed feelings on how successful of a commander he was or mixed feelings about him per se? I always saw him as the amiable, little Armenian grandpa in his pictures.-- MarshallBagramyan 22:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Image:General Andranik.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 14:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Some parts of new addings are dubious or historically not correct so its preferable to discuss these addings at first:
Summaty: this variant is dubious and must be explained and at least partially reverted to the prev. more correct encyclopedic style-version. Andranikpasha ( talk) 16:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Removed OR that equals to vandalism and breaks WP:WTA - Fedayee ( talk) 21:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter where the hero was born. The only thing that counts is the most common spelling in English literature: “andranik+ozanian” has 92 hits at Google Books and 9290 hits at google.com, while “antranik+ozanian” 31 and 833, respectively. Besides, Western Armenian form would be Antranig, not Antranik, and it too has much fewer hits than the Eastern Armenian form. -- Vahagn Petrosyan ( talk) 18:52, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Antranig!!! Pesheker ( talk) 12:57, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 17:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Andranik Toros Ozanian →
Andranik Ozanian – per
WP:COMMONNAME
Google Books Search
-- Yerevanci ( talk) 21:46, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
-- Takabeg ( talk) 04:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
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Hey, so the first issue brought up by you was his nickname Shapinad. I agree that the only place Shapinand is used is Dashtents's novel, but first of all that novel is a non-fiction, second, Khachik Dashtents wrote it after interactions with many of Andranik's comrades such as Makhluto, who was next to him almost all his life. I don't see any reason, why this shouldn't be added as his nickname.
Second, the issue of using the Dashnak symbol for Armenian militia. He left the Hunchakian party in 1894 and joined Dashnaks and he started his revolutionary/fedayee activities in 1895 (a year later after joining ARF) and he was a Dashnak, not Hunchak or Armenakan, when being a militia member. I think this makes sense. -- Yerevanci ( talk) 16:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Is the poster influenced more by Uncle Sam, or by the original featuring
Lord Kitchener?
Varlaam (
talk)
09:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
A quote from Bloxham: "From mid-1918, Andranik was prominent in the destruction of Muslim settlements during the purging of the Armenian-Azeri border region of Zangezur. Hovannisian describes his actions as the beginning of the process of 'transforming Zangezur into a solidly Armenian land'." Parishan ( talk) 18:39, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
You forgot to outline one more important point: Bloxham agrees this was ethnic cleansing when he says "accurately describes", which is quite a serious interpretation of Andranik's actions. I believe that should not be omitted.
Otherwise I generally agree with your wording, except one important point. The meaning of the term 'deportation' lies very far from the meanings of the words 'destruction' and 'eviction' which Bloxham uses. In other words, it is too soft and rather inaccurate a word to summarise what was being done to the Muslims in Zangezur according to the author. It can be applied but loosely to the events taking place in the region at the time. We could drop the word 'eviction', because the term 'ethnic cleansing' already presupposes that, but the word 'destruction' should be kept.
So here is what I suggest: "After Armenia's declaration of Independence in May 1918, Andranik fought in Nakhchivan, Karabakh and Zangezur against the Azerbaijani and Turkish forces. His policy in Zangezur involved the ethnic cleansing of the local Muslim population and the destruction of their settlements, which were then repopulated with some 30,000 Armenians from Mush and Bitlis (many of them were later transferred to Erivan and Daralagiaz) in order to homogenize key areas of the Armenian state." Parishan ( talk) 04:21, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://books.google.com/books?id=WSl4JW5hQewC. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. VernoWhitney ( talk) 16:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
First of all, Day.az is not nationalist. It is simply Azerbaijani. And it is only used here to illustrated the Azerbaijani point of view. Secondly, you cannot delete an entire paragraph based on your criticism of only one source that it contains. With it, you are reverting established and recognized sources, such as Bloxham and Hovannisian. Parishan ( talk) 08:23, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I do not see how saying "celebrates" is nationalist. The agency simply reports on the attitude of the Azerbaijani government with regard to the event. The "military aggression against Armenia and Karabakh" is your own POV, and disagreeing with it does not mean being nationalist.
The "reliable" materials you added are Antranig Chalabian, a historian with a degree from the Yerevan State University, who refers to Azerbaijanis as "Tatar bandits". Now, that is nationalist. Furthermore, presenting his opinion as primary is unacceptable; most sources agree that in 1918, Azeris were either expelled or massacred in Zangezur and all across Armenia: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], so Chalabian's view is WP:UNDUE. You cannot simply state that Chalabian believes so, but David Bloxham holds a different opinion, because the two sources are not equal in either notability or lack of bias. I also question your removal of the term "ethnic cleansing" that Bloxham used to refer to what happened in Zangezur. Parishan ( talk) 08:44, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
How can Chalabian be "the most reliable source", if he is endorsed by an Armenian state-funded university? Even the wording he uses is biased. Also, you never explained why you keep removing the term "ethnic cleansing" from the article.
Conflicts.rem33 is in fact very reliable: the article there is written by Dr. Andrew Andersen, former professor of Simon Frazer University and the University of Victoria and currently a research fellow at the University of Calgary. Cegharkon is notable in that in quotes an existing document from Soviet archives, to which the reference is provided. Anyway, I listed the sources to demonstrate that the Azeri exodus and killings in Zangezur were a commonplace occurence in 1918–1920. If that is not convincing, I can quote Richard Hovannisian: "When he encountered a Turkish division near Julfa, Andranik backtracked and ascended into the highlands of Zangezur, where for the duration of the world war he overran one Muslim village after another" [6].
If you have problems with Day.az as an Azerbaijani source, I suggest we use academic Azerbaijani sources, such as Anar Isgandarli and Tofig Kocharli, to illustrate the Azerbaijani view on the issue.
Isgandarli: "A report by the commission stated that 115 Muslim villages in the Zangezur uyezd were reduced to the ground by the Armenians; the names of the ruined villages are provided therein. [goes into the description of the atrocities] These episodes were realized in Zangezur under the direct command of Andranik during summer and fall of 1918." [7] (p. 123)
Kocharli: "As said by the Prime Minister of Azerbaijan F.Kh.Khoyski, on July 1918, Andranik "by doing terrible evils in Zangezur destoyed many villages and, finally, by crossing to the Shusha uezd, block the road to Asgaran..." The Azerbaijani Armed Forces were then focused exclusively on the Baku problem." [8] (p. 26)
I would like you to comment on this, and if we still disagree, we can ask a third party to join. Parishan ( talk) 09:17, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
The fact that Chalabian received a diploma from Armenia only goes to show that how biased his opinion is, because Armenian sources are not third-party in this case. Wikipedia describes Chalabian as a "medical illustrator", and I do not see any evidence of proper training in history. He is not a qualified historian, more like an amateur. "Honorary doctorate" is not even an academic degree. Heck, Ilham Aliyev is an honorary doctor of over 20 universities in Azerbaijan and abroad. [9] Does that make him an academic authority? Is it really so difficult to understand that someone with Chalabian's qualifications and approach is no equal to someone like Donald Bloxham, a professor from the University of Edinburgh and a notable expert on genocide issues? I should even insist on Chalabian's complete removal from the article, now that we have established he is not even a scholar.
As for the Azerbaijani sources, no one is expected to agree with them. They are simply to show that this is what the Azerbaijanis believe. Isgandarli holds a Ph.D. degree [10] and is chair of the department of historical methodology at Baku State University. [11]. The late Tofig Kocharli was also an acclaimed historian in Azerbaijan and member of the Azerbaijan National Academy of Sciences.
I was not pushing for the inclusion of information about massacres. Both Hovannisian and Bloxham mention the destruction of Muslim villages, and Bloxham further describes it as an act of ethnic cleansing (and he is perfectly qualified to do so, unlike Chalabian). That is all. And that is exactly what the article said before you started meddling in the text. Parishan ( talk) 10:08, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Anyone with a Ph.D. in history is definitely tons more reliable than a medical illustrator who writes quasi-historical essays for fun. Before we invite a third party, I would like you to answer this question: what scientific background does Chalabian have? It would be nice to see some degree in history-related fields, examples of relevant scienfitic publications and, if possible, peer reviews. Once we establish that Chalabian and Bloxham are of the same weight, we can invite a third party. Parishan ( talk) 05:50, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Moved for lack of opposition to the proposal. Note: I have moved the existing page to Andranik (given name), as the usage is unambiguous, and moving it to a disambiguation page would require stripping all information about the name itself, per MOSDAB. bd2412 T 19:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Andranik Ozanian → Andranik – WP:COMMONNAME Երևանցի talk 02:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC) He is widely known by his first name only. See Mononymous person.
Conclusion: All major academic sources prefer to use just "Andranik" rather than Andranik Ozanian. -- Երևանցի talk 02:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
"The most famous of the Armenian guerrilla fighters, although not necessarily the most important"
Can we remove this line? The only fedayi who really has a good argument for being more important than Andranik is Nzhdeh, and combined with how Libaridian didn't go into detail on why Andranik isn't important or whatever he meant, this sentence doesn't carry much weight. -- Steverci ( talk) 14:58, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
"Ozanian was Commander-in-Chief of the allied forces in the Near East in the early part of the World War. He relinquished the command to General Allenby of the English forces and returned to the command of the Armenian Army." [20]
Should any mention of this title be made? -- Steverci ( talk) 23:04, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
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