This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The word 'Catalonia' or 'Catalunya' appear 68 times and the word 'Antoni' only 28.
Describing Gaudí as "Spanish Catalan" is a compromise that needs to stay in unless WP:CONSENSUS changes so please do not delete either word without discussing it here on the talk page. The other deletion was accompanied by a deceptive edit summary that claimed it was a revert due to a non-existing reference. There was no revert, it was an outright deletion of a well-referenced claim that was slightly garbled. I adjusted the wording so that it conforms to what the source says. The source is clearly readable through Google Books ebook access. Please do not make more controversial deletions without consensus here on the talk page. Elizium23 ( talk) 14:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Dear, you do not need to insult or accuse me. It is not very constructive and does not add much to this discussion or to the article. Ad hominem assumptions don't work here. I try to neutralize nationalistic content. All nationalistic content. Assuming who I am and what my motivations are is counterproductive and also wrong. As you said before, you think that Catalonia (region) is very interesting and that people should know that it exist. Therefore it should be mentioned in the lede. This is an example of WP:UNDUE. Furthermore, Spanish Catalan does not mean much in common English. Because Spanish and Catalan are in two different categories hyperonomic/hyponomic. You see? When I say that your English might be slightly less suited for this kind of discussion, I mean that perhaps these nuances are a bit to difficult for you at this moment. I also think this because of the comments you state yourself about your English knowledge in your personal page. As I said before I think that the agreement reached so far is good as it is. Arcillaroja ( talk) 09:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
If there is no answer then we should go ahead with the edit? It seems not very stable indeed Arcillaroja ( talk) 08:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
This talk thread was noted in an RfC and I wanted to bring another perspective to the discussion here. It appears clear that there is a single editor pushing a POV. I am in full agreement with consensus that Spain is the country of birth and Catalan is the nationality - recognized as such by both Spain and Catalonia - and therefore Spanish Catalan is the apt term. No factual argument has been presented by the other side as to why this should not be the case. A lot of verbiage, but no factual argument. Factchecker25 ( talk) 12:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Dear Factchecker25. Not only those "nationalities" are recognized by the Spanish constitution. Also others such as Andalusia are recognized as "nationalities". Yet, I don't see that Pablo Picasso is a "Spanish Andalusian" painter. I see a tendentious use of Wikipedia in order to promote National identity. But that is my opinion, of course. What is not my opinion is the fact that the reform of the statute of Catalonia was rejected by the constitutional court because the word "nation" was mentioned in it. The articles containing this word were derogated. I honestly think that it is wrong to take a stand in all this discussion. Why not setting a neutral wording? Arcillaroja ( talk) 18:39, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
The statement that he was "always in favour of Catalonian culture but was reluctant to become politically active to campaign for its autonomy" is illogical. It presupposes that support for Catalan culture means support for Catalan political autonomy. That is entirely false, as these are two quite different matters. I am partly of Scottish ancestry. I am "always in favour of Scottish culture", but strongly opposed to Scottish political autonomy. Royalcourtier ( talk) 19:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
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Gaudí would have never described himself as Spanish. He was Catalan. It should be changed. Eccekevin ( talk) 21:19, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not the scenario for the Catalan independence struggles. It is completely irrelevant how Gaudí would have described himself, in fact every Catalan who says he/she is not Spanish has a Spanish passport, masters the Spanish language, has a DNI and pays taxes in Spain. How do you call that? Spanish. All the same, you can't assure what Gaudí thought and he didn't even leave a writing stating that kind of political thought, it is just your assumption and Wikipedia is not written based on assumptions. I could also assume the sky is green, but I cannot write Wikipedia according to that. Gaudí wasn't even and independentist and his layouts were mostly in Spanish. By the way, Catalans are not an indigenous (pure?) people, how can someone say that? It shows your complete bias. Not even Catalan is an "indigenous" language, it comes from vulgar Latin and Latin from Sanskrit and Greek. Yes, when Gaudí was born there was not a Catalonia autonomous region (Constitución de 1978), there was Spain. The Principality of Catalonia does not exist since 1715 after the War of the Spanish Succession and the establishment of the Borbons, that was the end of the Crowns of Aragon and Valencia to which Catalonia and the County of Barcelona were subordinated. Why don't you start changing all Catalans' nationalities in WP? Dalí is described as Spanish, for example. The only WP that describes Catalans' nationality as Catalan is the Catalan Wikipedia. The objective writing here is that Gaudí's nationality was Spanish, since Catalonia has never been an independent country or republic, it has been part of Spain since 1469 when Fernando de Aragón and Isabel de Castilla got married and unified their crowns. By the way, as early as the 8th century, in times of Queen Urraca, the term España was used. -- Jdvillalobos ( talk) 17:16, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
as far as I know, the word "gaudy" originates from this individual's name — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.12.80.218 ( talk) 00:38, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
It makes me very sad to see this anti-Catalonian discourse, which seems to obsess the people here who don't want to accept the fact that Antoni Gaudi was Catalan, not Spanish. Why should it be contested that man who was born, lived and died in his home country Catalonia, spoke only Catalan language and is the most admired Catalan in history, is Catalan? I can't understand you!
You say you won't accept political propaganda in Wikipedia, but why you allow this false information to exist here? If insisting Gaudi as Spaniard which he was not, is not propaganda then what is? Wikipedia seems to be extremely fraudulent place! Wikipedia can not, will not and is not able to steal the national identity of Catalans! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:999:52:E4F5:C0A7:8812:8523:680A ( talk) 20:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Antoni Gaudí i Cornet was a Catalan architect who has become internationally recognised as one of the most prodigious experts in his discipline, as well as one of the top exponents of modernism. His exceptional ground-breaking genius made him the inventor of a unique, personal and incomparable architectural language that defies classification
Even though some users seem to be trolling about this-- 88.1.201.82 ( talk) 01:15, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Catalonian and Basque people both have strong national identity, which includes their own languages, history, heritage and countries. Totally senseless to argue about facts! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:999:51:7B8F:F42B:C2EC:573:8CE ( talk) 09:39, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
What's going on here? The fact that Gaudí was a Catalan architect shouldn't even be a matter of discussion. I remember that a while ago, TheRichic agreed on this lead: Antoni Gaudí i Cornet was a Catalan architect. But now I see that you are edit warring about this. Why are you doing this? -- Beethoven ( talk) 17:10, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
There's an archive search at the top, type in 'Catalan' and it brings up endless discussions (I was alerted to the matter from a 2013 notice at the Catalan-speaking countries WikiProject). The conclusion to most is that Gaudi should be identified as Catalan over Spanish. Any further discussion would be extending this to the point of warranting some official consensus-seeking vote on the matter. Kingsif ( talk) 11:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
References
How on earth is this article "good". Most of it is unsourced! I've taken pity on it by aborting an edit were I was about to run run into the removal of 12,000 bytes worth of unsourced content. I don't like tagging, so I haven't done that either. But what I will do is give the GA nominator, which is you Elizium23, a week to find the sources for all of the unverified material. If you don't (or can't) I will list it at WP:GAR to have it removed from Wikipedia:Good articles/Art and architecture - and then remove all unverified material, per WP:CITE. Cassianto Talk 22:21, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The word 'Catalonia' or 'Catalunya' appear 68 times and the word 'Antoni' only 28.
Describing Gaudí as "Spanish Catalan" is a compromise that needs to stay in unless WP:CONSENSUS changes so please do not delete either word without discussing it here on the talk page. The other deletion was accompanied by a deceptive edit summary that claimed it was a revert due to a non-existing reference. There was no revert, it was an outright deletion of a well-referenced claim that was slightly garbled. I adjusted the wording so that it conforms to what the source says. The source is clearly readable through Google Books ebook access. Please do not make more controversial deletions without consensus here on the talk page. Elizium23 ( talk) 14:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Dear, you do not need to insult or accuse me. It is not very constructive and does not add much to this discussion or to the article. Ad hominem assumptions don't work here. I try to neutralize nationalistic content. All nationalistic content. Assuming who I am and what my motivations are is counterproductive and also wrong. As you said before, you think that Catalonia (region) is very interesting and that people should know that it exist. Therefore it should be mentioned in the lede. This is an example of WP:UNDUE. Furthermore, Spanish Catalan does not mean much in common English. Because Spanish and Catalan are in two different categories hyperonomic/hyponomic. You see? When I say that your English might be slightly less suited for this kind of discussion, I mean that perhaps these nuances are a bit to difficult for you at this moment. I also think this because of the comments you state yourself about your English knowledge in your personal page. As I said before I think that the agreement reached so far is good as it is. Arcillaroja ( talk) 09:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
If there is no answer then we should go ahead with the edit? It seems not very stable indeed Arcillaroja ( talk) 08:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
This talk thread was noted in an RfC and I wanted to bring another perspective to the discussion here. It appears clear that there is a single editor pushing a POV. I am in full agreement with consensus that Spain is the country of birth and Catalan is the nationality - recognized as such by both Spain and Catalonia - and therefore Spanish Catalan is the apt term. No factual argument has been presented by the other side as to why this should not be the case. A lot of verbiage, but no factual argument. Factchecker25 ( talk) 12:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Dear Factchecker25. Not only those "nationalities" are recognized by the Spanish constitution. Also others such as Andalusia are recognized as "nationalities". Yet, I don't see that Pablo Picasso is a "Spanish Andalusian" painter. I see a tendentious use of Wikipedia in order to promote National identity. But that is my opinion, of course. What is not my opinion is the fact that the reform of the statute of Catalonia was rejected by the constitutional court because the word "nation" was mentioned in it. The articles containing this word were derogated. I honestly think that it is wrong to take a stand in all this discussion. Why not setting a neutral wording? Arcillaroja ( talk) 18:39, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
The statement that he was "always in favour of Catalonian culture but was reluctant to become politically active to campaign for its autonomy" is illogical. It presupposes that support for Catalan culture means support for Catalan political autonomy. That is entirely false, as these are two quite different matters. I am partly of Scottish ancestry. I am "always in favour of Scottish culture", but strongly opposed to Scottish political autonomy. Royalcourtier ( talk) 19:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 25 external links on Antoni Gaudí. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Gaudí would have never described himself as Spanish. He was Catalan. It should be changed. Eccekevin ( talk) 21:19, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not the scenario for the Catalan independence struggles. It is completely irrelevant how Gaudí would have described himself, in fact every Catalan who says he/she is not Spanish has a Spanish passport, masters the Spanish language, has a DNI and pays taxes in Spain. How do you call that? Spanish. All the same, you can't assure what Gaudí thought and he didn't even leave a writing stating that kind of political thought, it is just your assumption and Wikipedia is not written based on assumptions. I could also assume the sky is green, but I cannot write Wikipedia according to that. Gaudí wasn't even and independentist and his layouts were mostly in Spanish. By the way, Catalans are not an indigenous (pure?) people, how can someone say that? It shows your complete bias. Not even Catalan is an "indigenous" language, it comes from vulgar Latin and Latin from Sanskrit and Greek. Yes, when Gaudí was born there was not a Catalonia autonomous region (Constitución de 1978), there was Spain. The Principality of Catalonia does not exist since 1715 after the War of the Spanish Succession and the establishment of the Borbons, that was the end of the Crowns of Aragon and Valencia to which Catalonia and the County of Barcelona were subordinated. Why don't you start changing all Catalans' nationalities in WP? Dalí is described as Spanish, for example. The only WP that describes Catalans' nationality as Catalan is the Catalan Wikipedia. The objective writing here is that Gaudí's nationality was Spanish, since Catalonia has never been an independent country or republic, it has been part of Spain since 1469 when Fernando de Aragón and Isabel de Castilla got married and unified their crowns. By the way, as early as the 8th century, in times of Queen Urraca, the term España was used. -- Jdvillalobos ( talk) 17:16, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
as far as I know, the word "gaudy" originates from this individual's name — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.12.80.218 ( talk) 00:38, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
It makes me very sad to see this anti-Catalonian discourse, which seems to obsess the people here who don't want to accept the fact that Antoni Gaudi was Catalan, not Spanish. Why should it be contested that man who was born, lived and died in his home country Catalonia, spoke only Catalan language and is the most admired Catalan in history, is Catalan? I can't understand you!
You say you won't accept political propaganda in Wikipedia, but why you allow this false information to exist here? If insisting Gaudi as Spaniard which he was not, is not propaganda then what is? Wikipedia seems to be extremely fraudulent place! Wikipedia can not, will not and is not able to steal the national identity of Catalans! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:999:52:E4F5:C0A7:8812:8523:680A ( talk) 20:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Antoni Gaudí i Cornet was a Catalan architect who has become internationally recognised as one of the most prodigious experts in his discipline, as well as one of the top exponents of modernism. His exceptional ground-breaking genius made him the inventor of a unique, personal and incomparable architectural language that defies classification
Even though some users seem to be trolling about this-- 88.1.201.82 ( talk) 01:15, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Catalonian and Basque people both have strong national identity, which includes their own languages, history, heritage and countries. Totally senseless to argue about facts! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:999:51:7B8F:F42B:C2EC:573:8CE ( talk) 09:39, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
What's going on here? The fact that Gaudí was a Catalan architect shouldn't even be a matter of discussion. I remember that a while ago, TheRichic agreed on this lead: Antoni Gaudí i Cornet was a Catalan architect. But now I see that you are edit warring about this. Why are you doing this? -- Beethoven ( talk) 17:10, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
There's an archive search at the top, type in 'Catalan' and it brings up endless discussions (I was alerted to the matter from a 2013 notice at the Catalan-speaking countries WikiProject). The conclusion to most is that Gaudi should be identified as Catalan over Spanish. Any further discussion would be extending this to the point of warranting some official consensus-seeking vote on the matter. Kingsif ( talk) 11:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
References
How on earth is this article "good". Most of it is unsourced! I've taken pity on it by aborting an edit were I was about to run run into the removal of 12,000 bytes worth of unsourced content. I don't like tagging, so I haven't done that either. But what I will do is give the GA nominator, which is you Elizium23, a week to find the sources for all of the unverified material. If you don't (or can't) I will list it at WP:GAR to have it removed from Wikipedia:Good articles/Art and architecture - and then remove all unverified material, per WP:CITE. Cassianto Talk 22:21, 30 January 2020 (UTC)