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that depends whether you believe god exists, or "not", because; opposing an entity you do "not" believe exists, compared to opposing a god you believe "does", or might, exist, are completely different.
the question here is flawed, because there is no need for a word to specify the opposing of "god", but there needs to be a clarification to the definition of what it is we mean when we claim "someone, or something is opposing "GOD".
-) opposing a god one believes exists, would mean one's "personal judgement", even if through "sanity", or "insanity" (caused by i.e mental illness), is taking a higher priority over the word of "supposed" god.
-) opposing a god we do "not" believe exists, makes us directly clash with the "supposed" entities that claim god does exist.
(Moved from User talk:Snalwibma because it seems to belong better here. Refers to this edit)
My inclusion of the number of deaths caused by Soviets not only provides an example of what militant atheism does, rather than purely a definition of the concept, but puts into context the actual significance of it. The page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism has an entire section related to attacks and deaths and pages on the Nazism or the Holocaust will also cite figures. There is no valid reason to leave such key information out. I will be adding this back to the article unless you can provide an explanation of how it (statistics) is 'political' and why related areas of wikipedia include statistical information but this section shouldn't. Utopial ( talk) 13:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
(Outdent). I've deleted the lot. We seem to be crowbarring in Bolsheviks and Communisms to fit a number of misconceptions about what is Communism and the causes of any deaths. The Bolsheviks were democratic centralist (as embodied in the Twenty-one Conditions) and their drive was for class war. As the Russian Orthodox Church levied taxes and was part of the government of Tsarist Russia then it is pretty clear they're going to be on the losing side in a revolution or class war against the Imperialist state (the same revolution in France with the Royalists+Clergy against the People. The Eastern Orthodox Church clergy supported the White Army in the Russian Civil War, and occasionally collaborated with it or were anti-Bolshevik. What the section fails to highlight is how the Russian Orthodox got embroiled in politics and war and ended up on the losing side. Thus it is certainly not clear if any deaths cited can be accurately allocated to "antitheism" (which is what this article is after all), or as a result of taking sides in a civil war, or opposing the ruling Bolshevik/Communist mechanisms of governance that would preclude a competitive class. Oddly enough under Stalin we have the promotion of the Church (for political purposes) though Stalin is cited as loving his purges but he purged those he saw as political enemies irrespective of their faith. Ttiotsw ( talk) 06:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
tables are only martyrs and dont include the other deaths caused by stalin - which as i said and have read is more like 70m. Utopial ( talk) 07:44, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Let me guess these sources are fringe. The New York Times article for example which is about just 1 location. As for the making apologies for the murder of theists according to your above statements Father Paul Florensky just could not have died the way he did- because he mixed math and religion is inexcusable, [3] and was not for political reasons as it is shown in the articles above atheism was the only acceptable position. As the edit warring now leaves NO MENTION AT ALL. Which is totally unethical and historically dishonest. LoveMonkey ( talk) 00:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
For an editor to refer to something as fringe that I just sourced as
It is not acceptable. If someone criticizes a source that is not the same as defaming it wholesale- as fringe. Now that type of wholesale platitude and blanket generalization is true fundamentalism. LoveMonkey ( talk) 01:29, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Your actions betray your words. You have blanket deleted. You have defamed by trying to disregard accepted research under the justification that it is now fringe. However it is not just because you say so. You have blanket deleted without getting consensus and then repeated that tactic. Your actions are what I am addressing. And since they do not reflect your words. It is your actions that I will continue to speak to. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
WELL I'LL SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THIS NOW,---
A perfect example of "ANTI-THEISM, was when the emperor HIROHITO was made to publicly express to the country of Japan that he was IN FACT, (OR WAS IT IN "UN"FACT?), NOT a descendant of ANY GOD.
The relevant question here is of course, WHY DID THEY MAKE HIM DO THIS? -- and then again, of course, we will have plenty of answers that go in to MANY different directions... BUT ONE THING IS UNDENIABLE!
THE FACT THAT HIROHITO WAS BELIEVED TO BE SOME MYSTICAL GODLY DESCENDANT WAS IN FACT GIVING HIM AMAZING SUPER POWERS, THIS MAN WAS THE HIRO NAKAMURA OF HIS TIME.
SO TO OPPOSE THIS SO BELIEVED TO BE GOD WITH ANTI-THEISM, WAS NOT TO SPREAD DISBELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF ANY GOD, OR EVEN DISBELIEF THAT HIROHITO WAS A DESCENDANT OF ANY GOD, BUT IT WAS MERELY TO FLIP THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN THAT THIS MAN AND HIS FAMILY WERE PLAYING, AND MANIPULATING MASSES OF PEOPLE WITH.
THE ROYAL FAMILY HAS STRIPPED HOW MANY COMMONERS OF THEIR POTENTIAL BELIEF TO BE DESCENDED FROM A GOD!?
ANTI-THEISM OR EVEN ATHEISM, OR WHATEVER YOU WILL FOR IT TO BE CALLED IS NOT THE REJECTION OR DISBELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF ANYTHING, BUT MERELY THE REJECTION OF YOUR JUSTIFICATION TO YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS BELIEFS TO DEFINE WHAT IS GOOD AND POSITIVE, WHILE RIDING ON THE BACKS OF BILLIONS OF STUPID PEOPLE, WHEN YOU ARE TRULY JUST ANOTHER WITCH WITH A VOODOO SPELL BOOK!
NOBODY CAN PROVE THAT GOD DOES "NOT" EXIST, JUST LIKE NOBODY CAN PROVE THAT HE "DOES". IT IS MERELY OUR EMOTIONS THAT TAKE OVER WHEN STRUCK BY THE HARDSHIPS OF WHATEVER THAT HAS CAUSED THEM, OR EVEN THE EMOTIONS OF OUR JOYS, AND FOR SOME REASON WE ALWAYS FEEL LIKE BEING POETIC ABOUT IT.
BUT ONCE AGAIN UNDENIABLE IS, THE FACT THAT THEISTS ARE OBSTRUCTING THE PROGRESS OF FACT DRIVEN RESEARCH, AND ARE MAINTAINING A STRUCTURE AS BIG AS THE FACT DRIVEN INDUSTRY, AS CORRUPT AS THE FACT DRIVEN INDUSTRY, BUT REFUSE TO JOIN THE ART INDUSTRY, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO LOSE TO THE FACT DRIVEN INDUSTRY.
-DROP MIC- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.104.104.33 ( talk) 15:46, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Religious Martyrs
o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page [9] estimating the number of martyrs since the origin of each religion:
* Atheists: 31,689,000
[11]
and
The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
LoveMonkey ( talk) 01:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
First: Is "antitheism" the same as "militant atheism" in the context of Soviet repression of relgion? If not, then this dicussion should be happening on other pages. That's the first issue to resolve. I am surprised to see "antitheism" regarded as a synonym of "militant atheism", because I do think they represent different things. This is a question about the scope of the article, and we need to resolve this first.
Secondly: what sources do we use to cite figures as to the numbers killed by repressive State Atheism? Not, I would suggest fringe sources such as those suggested, or even the Ottawa Citizen, but mainstream historical research published in reliable mainstream sources. I've already suggested the Black Book of Communism as one possible source, but I will find some more historical papers and publications. However, this is all academic if the information belongs under other articles on the Society of the Godless, or State Atheism or whatever.
I have no interest in downplaying what was the often brutal Leninist/Stalinist repression of Christians and others. I just want wikipedia to reflect mainstream research, not just estimates on the extreme high end. This is how Wikipedia policy says we should proceed.
So, I will go away and find some good research which we may be able to cite here. In the meantime we should talk about whether "militant atheism" belongs here at all, or if it should appear in another article. -- Dannyno ( talk) 12:53, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Again your actions betray your words. For you can not justfy this edit you did today. [12]
And if I disagree with the contents or edits being made to an article I am to take it up on the articles talkpage. I think it noteworth that the policy on wikipedia is to bend to the whim of administrators and that it is not a matter of sources it is a matter of the whim of administrators as the argumentative sorrowful browbeating of editors here and my afd on the libertarian metaphysical article shows. LoveMonkey ( talk) 23:28, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Administrator Silence posted this comment.
LoveMonkeys response.
These are the sources I posted. Plenteous. You are being argumentive.
Also........ see Dimitry Pospielovsky [13]. [14]) [15] [16] [17] LoveMonkey ( talk) 16:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm saddened by the way in which LoveMonkey has presented those supposedly conclusive sources. In fact, they are odd. First of all, the issue is what historians think happened, not various martyr memorial sites; second none of the sources posted support the 20 million figure from World Christian Trends. Indeed, only one even mentions that figure, and then only to say they've not been able to consult World Christian Trends or assess the figures. I own Storming the Heavens, and it does not support the 20 million figure or cite World Christian Trends. I searched Their Blood Cries Out on amazon.co.uk, and it does not support the 20 million figure or cite World Christian Trends. I also own the three volume set on Soviet Antireligious Campaigns, and that doesn't support the 20 million figure or cite World Christian Trends either. In other words, each and every of the "sources" you have posted is irrelevant, even the one which mentions the figure and the source (only to say they've not read it). Third, the "New Martyrs" concept is new to me but appears to be widespread, and there is a wikipedia entry on New Martyrs. Perhaps you could legitimately refer to some of those sources on that article? -- Dannyno ( talk) 17:43, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Dannyno wrote
I'm saddened by the way in which LoveMonkey has presented those supposedly conclusive sources.
LoveMonkeys response
Comment is meaningless conjecture and does nothing at best it muses over and makes unproductive comments on editors emotional state that no one has requested.
Dannyno wrote
In fact, they are odd.
LoveMonkeys response
I guess that's almost an improvement over your previously calling the figure and the source fringe.
Dannyno wrote
First of all, the issue is what historians think happened, not various martyr memorial sites; second none of the sources posted support the 20 million figure from World Christian Trends.
LoveMonkeys response
Forgive my restrained but frustrated response, in that you are misrepresenting the data posted and what is only defaming a widely used and valid source in that you continue to misrepresent and mislead by leaving out Whites comment that Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it Site from the World Christian Encyclopedia.
o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page [21] estimating the number of martyrs since the origin of each religion:
Let alone I posted that the Ottawa Citizen validates at least 15 million...
* 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith. * citing Paul Marshall, ---Their Blood Cries Out--
So the Ottawa Times is lying about --Their Blood Cries Out--? And the Ottawa Citizen then validates the larger number of 24 million total.
* Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It * 40M Christians martyred throughout history. * ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists * ca. 8M k. by other Christians
So is White lying about the Ottawa Citizen? Is the Ottawa Citizen? I have now posted this repeatedly and you keep ignoring and denying it, why?
Not just this but you are also defaming the historical and scientific evidence of a horrible and evil tragic human set of atrocities (martyr memorial sites). Your sad over some sort of perceived wiki policy violations, but even if the numbers 10 million it seems completely lost on you. You edit and revert warred when all you had to do was post the total as 15 to 20 million depending on source.
Dannyno wrote
Third, the "New Martyrs" concept is new to me but appears to be widespread, and there is a wikipedia entry on
New Martyrs. Perhaps you could legitimately refer to some of those sources on that article?
LoveMonkeys response
I already have. Post the figures from the books you claim to own. What are the figures from those works Dannyno. Post them..I posted them as quoted by the Ottawa Citizen via White. Thats 2 sources using and posting numbers you say are not there.
LoveMonkey (
talk) 00:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Forgive my restrained but frustrated response, in that you are misrepresenting the data posted and what is only defaming a widely used and valid source in that you continue to misrepresent and mislead by leaving out Whites comment that Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it Site from the World Christian Encyclopedia.
This issue obviously upsets you, but I’m not trying to “misrepresent” or “defame” anything. All I’m doing is pointing out that the source is fringe, and that citing it gives it undue weight. The figure you have in mind of 70 million total victims of Leninist/Stalinist oppression is on the far extreme upper range of estimates. That’s why the source is fringe and quoting it is undue weight. Other statistics in the source may be fine; the general methodology used by the editors may be entirely mainstream – but this particular figure is fringe.
You accuse me of misrepresentation and being misleading by leaving out the comment “Britannia and the World Alamanac cite from it”. Strictly speaking, this is irrelevant because the problem here is with a particular figure which is out of line with the scholarly mainstream, not with the source as a whole (though serious questions have indeed been raised about the source as a whole, by professionals and academics – why, after all, was World Christian Trends, intended to be vol 3 of WCE, not published by OUP?). Unfortunately, it is White’s statement which is at very least misleading. What does it mean, exactly? Does it mean that the World Almanac and Encyclopaedia Britannica quote WCT’s martyrdom statistics? Neither do so. The fact of the matter is that David Barratt, of the WCE and WCT, calculates Britannica’s Book of the Year world religious adherents table of statistics – which are the basis for the World Almanac’s data.
[23]. This is not relevant to my point.
-- Dannyno ( talk) 21:08, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
LoveMonkeys response
Let alone I posted that the Ottawa Citizen validates at least 15 million...
* 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith. * citing Paul Marshall, ---Their Blood Cries Out--
So the Ottawa Times is lying about --Their Blood Cries Out--? And the Ottawa Citizen then validates the larger number of 24 million total.
* Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It * 40M Christians martyred throughout history. * ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists * ca. 8M k. by other Christians
So is White lying about the Ottawa Citizen? Is the Ottawa Citizen? I have now posted this repeatedly and you keep ignoring and denying it, why?
When you first cited the Ottawa Citizen stuff, I observed that we need reliable, mainstream, scholarly historical sources. This is neither ignoring the Ottawa Citizen, nor “denying” it . All the Ottawa Citizen is reported to have done is quote a couple of books, which use data I have already pointed out conflicts with mainstream historical estimates on total deaths in the USSR. The Ottawa Citizen advances the discussion not one iota further. No, I don’t think White is lying about the Ottawa Citizen. I’m sure he’s quite right that the Ottawa Citizen quoted those books. The issue is with the data, and the fact that the data is fringe. Of course, it’s worth saying once again that White, in quoting the Ottawa Citizen, is not doing so out of approval, but as part of a critical discussion of such figures. However, I double checked the Ottawa Citizen, using Nexis UK. I found the article of 20 December 1998 cited by White. And it turns out that although Marshall is quoted, he doesn’t provide the 15 million figure. No, that figure is quoted from the World Christian Encyclopedia. The article says, “It is estimated that at least 18 million Eastern Orthodox and Catholic believers died between 1917 and 1980, most of them in the Soviet Union's prison camps.”, which is a different claim to that being considered here . “Their Blood Cries Out”, which I’ve searched using Amazon, doesn’t use the WCE’s 18/20 million figures. If anyone has the book itself, and can cite Marshall using that data, then let them do so and I’ll accept the correction. However, it won’t affect my point. Then I checked the 6 Feb 1993 Ottawa Citizen article. The D. Barrett cited is of course the editor of the World Christian Encyclopedia, so it’s not an independent source. And more fundamentally there is nothing in the article that is relevant to the present discussion.
LoveMonkeys response
Not just this but you are also defaming the historical and scientific evidence of a horrible and evil tragic human set of atrocities (martyr memorial sites). Your sad over some sort of perceived wiki policy violations, but even if the numbers 10 million it seems completely lost on you. You edit and revert warred when all you had to do was post the total as 15 to 20 million depending on source.
I take exception to this abuse. Please desist. What we want here are mainstream historical references. The martyr memorial sites you posted, apart from not being the kind of mainstream historical references we need here, also did not mention anything of relevance to the particular issue under discussion. I reject the accusation of “revert warring”. I removed the disputed data, explained why, and invited discussion. Instead of that, and being able to arrive at a consensus, I’ve been forced to defend myself from accusations of “misrepresentation” and all kinds of other dreadful things. I volunteered the Black Book of Communism’s figures. I’ve had no feedback on that, and in any case we have a more central debate now about whether or not this article is even encyclopaedic. I remain willing to post mainstream figures once we have a consensus about where we are going (and I have time).
LoveMonkeys response
Post the figures from the books you claim to own. What are the figures from those works Dannyno. Post them..
“Claim”? Was that necessary? I’ve cited Robert Conquest’s data on total victims from the Encyclopedia Britannica. The Black Book of Communism I’ve also already cited. However, it discusses religious persecution especially on p.172-174 without attempting to provide total numbers of victims on specifically religious grounds. Peris’ Storming the Heavens, which you cited, doesn’t provide any statistics on total victims, as I said – I’ve just now skimmed through it again. Pospielovsky, “A History of Marxist-leninist atheism and soviet anti-religious policies”, vol 1, gives some estimated data for priests, but only says “incalculable millions” for lay believers (p.ix). There are no overall stats in the three volumes.
LoveMonkeys response
I posted them as quoted by the Ottawa Citizen via White. Thats 2 sources using and posting numbers you say are not there.
It’s not that the numbers are not there, but that they are the same numbers. All you have here is White referring to two Ottawa Citizen articles, both of which are citing the figures were are disputing here.
-- Dannyno ( talk) 21:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
On WCT: the problem, as I've said, is that the numbers given there are quite clearly at the far extreme end of estimates. Citing them and them alone is thus to give the far extreme estimate undue weight. That's the problem wikipedia faces in using those numbers.
You mention that WCT is "used by major encyclopedias". That's misleading. What is used by Britannica are estimates from the editors of the World Christian Encyclopedia/WCT (using its methodology) for its "Book of the Year" world religious affiliation statistics. Which doesn't at all address my point about undue weight being given to the WCT's estimates on deaths as a consequence of anti-religious policy. The EB article on the USSR gives the number of deaths from the 1921 famine as 5.1 million. Dekulakisation is said to have led to 2 million deaths; 2 million Kazaks probably died in the collectivisation effort; during the 1932-33 famine another 8 million died; the 1937 census counted 162 million people, set against an expected 177 million - thus 15 million short. EB says "The population deficit, including a decline in births, was thus some 15 million, of which premature death due to deportation and famine are believed to account for at least 10 million." During the 1937/38 purges, half of the 2.3 million party members were executed or died in labour camps. This terror also led to 5 million arrests among the public, and EB says that about 10 % survived. The article is written by Robert Conquest. The total number of victims of Lenin and Stalin is thus somewhere around the 20+ million mark, by his reckoning. Calling of them "martyrs" absolutely undue weight.
I agree with you on the issue of sources needing to specifically mention "antitheism". Were "antitheism" a clear position it would be possible to look back and see who fitted the definition. But it isn't a clear position - that's where I'm coming from: this whole article is unencyclopedic as it stands. All we have here is a bunch of unrelated uses of a particular term. It's not useful. -- Dannyno ( talk) 19:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
This article should only be for the use of antitheism. We should not use any section or reference unless it uses the words, antitheism or antitheist. This article is drifting into a WP:COATRACK for post-child anti-clericalism which is a completely different beast from anti-theism. I propose that we drop all the sections that are presenting anti-clericalism as anti-theism and use a See also to anti-clericalism. This means dropping the sections on the Soviet Union and Albania. These are anti-clerical and in most cases anti-catholic, for obvious reasons if you are running a country. Ttiotsw ( talk) 15:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
this section is unencylopedic (the article tag has noted this about the article). It reads like a tabloid or diary of the latest happenings. I am transferring this information here for the meantime. If necessary, a new category article can be created for 'militant atheists', the category link can be put on this article's footer and descriptions of their militant atheism can go in each individuals biography article.
Further examples of the term militant atheism include:
Counting through the references: Baggini is negative, #9 (Dawkins) is just a google search' #10 (Dawkins) is neutral as written; #11 (Harris) is just a google search; #12 (Harris) doesn't actually call Harris a militant atheist directly - Hari refers to himself in such terms in distinguishing himself from Harris; #13 (Bradlaugh) links to an inaccurate article (Bradlaugh did not "refuse" to swear allegiance); #14 (Feuerbach) is neutral but unexplained; #15 (Besant) doesn't seem to mention militant atheism, as far as I can tell - it's a confusing site; #16 (McCabe) appears to be neutral but is undefined; #17 (Newdow) comes from the magazine of the John Birch society. It's not online but I'm guessing its negative; #18 (Newdow) is used in a negative commentary; #19 (Schopenhauer) is a rejection of the label, but there is no indication of what is meant by it; #20 (Crick) similarly doesn't explain the meaning of the term, while apparently regarding it as negative; #21 (Moore) is pejorative; #22 (Persaud) is neutral going on negative but doesn't explain the meaning of the term; #24 (Drum) is neutral as part of negative commentary, but doesn't explain the meaning of the term; #25 (Eskow) is pejorative; #26 (Hobson) is pejorative; #27 (Argibay) is self-applied without explanation; #28 (Cohen on Foot) doesn't explain what is meant by the term; #29 (Griffin) is self-applied but her actual position appears to be merely that she doesn't care what anyone believes, which isn't especially militant!; #30 (Holcroft) is mildly negative but also unexplained; #31 (Engels) leaves the phrase unexplained; #32 (Lenin) at least explains what is meant; #33 (League of Militant Godless) again is self-explanatory; #34 (Phillips) is pejorative; #35 (Blackburn) is pejorative; #35 (Fiala) is hostile but also doesn't properly define the term.
So I don't see that "many" of the references are approving at all. And after all that, what has the reader learned? Not much. The League of Militant Godless clearly aren't on the same ideological page as, say, Charles Bradlaugh or Polly Toynbee. And while there is an apologetic that would lump them all together, actually "militant atheism" has little real meaning outside of certain organisations of pre-WW2 USSR. It's looking to me that this is wasting everyone's time. -- Dannyno ( talk) 20:20, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
this isnt antitheism, it's pro-atheism. if anywhere it should go in the atheism article. it's also 2 long and poorly written. Ill place it here in case someone wants to use it.
Harvard botanist and Christian Asa Gray, one of the first supporters of Darwin's theory of evolution, first noted the phenomenon in 1868 when he referred to "the English-materialistic-positivistic line of thought". [18] Such thought was usually associated with Thomas Huxley at the time.
The religious nature of Huxley's beliefs were referenced in Janet Browne's biography of Charles Darwin:
Huxley was rampaging on miracles and the existence of the soul. A few months later, he was to coin the word "agnostic" to describe his own position as neither a believer nor a disbeliever, but one who considered himself free to inquire rationally into the basis of knowledge. . .
The term fitted him well . . . and it caught the attention of the other free thinking, rational doubters in Huxley's ambit, and came to signify a particularly active form of scientific rationalism during the final decades of the 19th century...
In his hands, agnosticism became as doctrinaire as anything else—a religion of skepticism. Huxley used it as a creed that would place him on a higher moral plane than even bishops and archbishops. All the evidence would nevertheless suggest that Huxley was sincere in his rejection of the charge of outright atheism against himself.
To inquire rigorously into the spiritual domain, he asserted, was a more elevated undertaking than slavishly to believe or disbelieve. "A deep sense of religion is compatible with the entire absence of theology," he had told [Anglican clergyman] Charles Kingsley back in 1860. "Pope Huxley", the [magazine] Spectator dubbed him. The label stuck." [19]
Dan Barker is an American atheist writer, former Christian minister, and co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation. In 1993, Barker wrote an article on "Evangelical atheism" in which he provided advice to atheists interested in promoting atheism:
I am not suggesting that every atheist should be an evangelist. Some are better off temporarily keeping their views to themselves for job security or family harmony. Some freethinkers wisely wait until they retire, when they have little to lose, before they become vocal. In certain communities, open unbelief can be costly. [...]
If you decide to be evangelistic, then ask yourself what you hope to accomplish. Are you trying to win an argument? To simply end an argument? To demolish the enemy? To chase bigoted theocrats from your door?
We want to enhance self image, not squash it. You can't yank someone out of the fold. If your objective is to end up with a friend, then woo them, don't boo them. You may not respect their current views, but you can respect their potential to learn. [20]
Paul Kurtz, editor in chief of Free Inquiry, has written an opinion piece criticizing the criticism of Dawkins, Harris and Daniel Dennett in which he discusses the usage of the term "evangelical" in this context. [21]
References
The New World Encyclopedia control and funding is in part from the Universal Peace Federation who has a motto of "One Family Under God." It is part of the Unification Church as an affiliated Educational organizations. Given the church founder sees a "dark spirit of atheism" (ref: [24]) it is unreasonable to expect that the New World Encyclopedia would be neutral in defining anything related to Atheism or secular philosophies without an editorial spin that would make it not very neutral. Ttiotsw ( talk) 11:51, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
There was a section in this article that went: "According to historian Michael Burleigh, antitheism found its first mass expression in revolutionary France in response to organised resistance to "organised ... irreligion...an 'anti-clerical' and self-styled 'non-religious' state. [1]
The Soviet Union imposed state atheism and antireligious campaigns were directed at all faiths [2], including Christian, Buddhist and Shamanist religions. The government nationalised all church property, executed clergy, prohibited the publication of most religious material and persecuted members of religious groups [3] [4]. The result of this was the death of 21 million Russian Orthodox Christians by the Soviet government, not including torture or other religious ethnicities killed. [5]
Communist Albania imposed state atheism and had an objective for the eventual destruction of all religion in Albania, including a constitutional ban on religious activity and propaganda [6]. The government nationalised most property of religious institutions and religious literature was banned. Many clergy and theists were tried, tortured, and executed. All foreign Roman Catholic clergy were expelled in 1946. [7] [8]"
There has been a heated discussion about whether such information should be included and I suspect it is not in the right form. But there should be some recognition that antitheism has not, historically, been purely a matter of pamphleteering. Since atheists often seek to contrast their militancy, which is allegedly purely verbal, with religious militants who (sometimes) kill people NBeale ( talk) 08:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
References
There's a big problem here - we present just one definition of militant atheism, meaning "actively hostile to religion". But later, we present a couple of sources of different people referring to Dawkins and Harris as "militant". The fallacy is that there is no evidence that they are using the same definition as Julian Baggini. (Other definitions might include anyone who is activist - similar to "militant feminists"; in some cases it might even be used by atheists to describe themselves or other people, without it intended to imply hostility or hatred.) Similarly for the other atheists listed there.
So I would suggest we really need more sources to describe different meanings of "militant" (and note that most of them are not related to antitheism). It's also probably best to attribute the labels used for Dawkins and Harris (and perhaps the others listed there), since we only have one source for each (Google searches are not reliable sources).
Also see Militant#Adjective_usage which gives definitions such as "aggressive, especially in the service of a cause", and does not seem to necessarily go as far as to say hostility or hatred. Also note Militant#Span_of_militancy which states "The phrase militant atheist is usually used confrontationally when discussing those people who are more outspoken than the general population on subjects which explicitly or implicitly promote atheism[27], but is also used in a non-contentious manner to describe those who persecute religion in general." - I agree with this, and I think this should be mentioned here too. Mdwh ( talk) 21:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I see no evidence that Baggini's definition is in the least controversial. If there are other definitions from reliable sources then by all means quote them. But we can't just sweep a carefully researched item (with dozens of refs) away and put up a DAB page which is pure OR. I've reinstated the material in the Militant atheism article to avoid your concerns about the "questionable" link with Antitheism. We should not be trying to hide this material. NBeale ( talk) 12:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Now, OK, I'm headed into original research here. The point is that Baggini sets up a position he characterises as "militant", and argues against it. What he doesn't do in Atheism:avsi is identify anybody who he considers "militant" (I know he has more recently attacked the so called "new atheists"), beyond an inconclusive mention in passing of Bertrand Russell.
So all you've got is Baggini's characterisation of a position against which he wishes to position his form of atheism. Fine and dandy. Question is, fascinating though this may be to people studying Baggini's atheism (in which case it needs discussion on his wiki article), but is it significant more widely - or do we give it undue weight? -- Dannyno ( talk) 19:01, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
the basis for this article is ridiculous. atheism is NOTHING more than the rejection of a belief in deities. god believers want so badly to portray atheism as some sort of evil they will stoop to any level to accomplish their little propaganda attempts. This article is one such example. Soviet "militant atheism" is obnoxious attempt by religionists (or simply really ignorant people) to portray atheism as evil or something that leads to evil. atheism is not a collection of beliefs nor is it a manifesto. There is nothing violent about rejecting god belief. and if one chooses to be violent it is not their rejection fo god belief that makes them do it. it's no wonder that wikipedia is despised by so many. I've read the commentary on this page and it's pretty obvious what is right has little to do with what is written here. so cling to your fantasies and mislead people all you want. You're good at it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 17:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Then explain the deaths under atheist governments please. If religion were bad and atheism good, please explain the gas chambers, the Ukrainian famine, the GLF and the GPCR -- events which killed millions. Unfortunately, you appear to be living in a fantasy and this article needs a far more balanced approach to atheism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.203.110 ( talk) 22:20, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Militant simply means overly agressive in support of a cause. It is as possible for someone to be a militant atheist as much a they could be peaceful atheist and all the emotional responces in the world won't change that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.149.80 ( talk) 04:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Clearly the reason for extensive discussion here is that one contributor tries to push a NPOV. For example the main article on Catholicism does not mention any atrocities by the catholic church at all, no mention of Inquisition or clear cases such as the execution of Bruno. That is fine. These can be discussed in more direct entries as they are. The same is the case here. Stalin's atheism and genocidal behavior is well described in relevant pages (namely under Stalin/Stalinism). This is where they belong. I think there is a very shallow conflation with antisemitism. Just because a label has "anti" in it the word doesn't automatically mean hostile and genocidal. The Antisemitism has a section on the evolution of the meaning of the word and a good historic outline of the concept through history. That's a good way of doing it! Just trying to categorically link anti-theism to atrocities by Stalin and nothing else is at best misleading and lazy at worst just pushing a NPOV. For example contemporary anti-theists do by no means advocate violance or demeaning attitudes against theists, see Hitchens. Modern anti-theism states that religious believes are to the detriment of people and it is opposed to theistic believes. Stalinism does not match this definition hence it is well places in its current category (Stalinism). 141.212.109.98 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC).
I found this page trying to figure out the (sometimes subtle) difference(s) between atheism, antitheism, nontheism, etc. Until recently I was aware only of the existence of something I thought to be atheism, but apparently even the nonbelievers are fragmented in different (but not necessarily disjoint) denominations.
Anyway, I noticed that this page has been POV-tagged for almost a year now and not much seems to be happening. Has the issue been resolved and if not, can I help trying to get the article fixed? Skysmurf ( talk) 01:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
As mentioned above, there are some areas in which this article could be expanded. Anyone feel free to expand either the article (and then crossing out the relevant entry on this list) or this list itself.
Skysmurf ( talk) 17:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
In all fairness I should have looked up the word before I used for my belief. I am an antitheist because I know god exists but I hate god. This may not be etymologically correct.
It is a unique belief system but it is based upon the knowledge of god's existence. I spent most of my life as an atheist and a strong one. I believed strongly in the dogma of science as the ultimate truth. Then I went through a period which some would call psychosis, others would call ego death, others would call a spiritual awakening and others would use other terms. During this process I became aware of another conscious or consciousnesses within my stream of consciousness. This entity was non-corporeal but could affect me, my thoughts and my actions. It could also control things in my external reality.
I'm not talking about philosophy here. I'm talking about a frightening experience but one which was very real to me. "Delusion" and "hallucination" are modern 'scientific' ways to doubt what I went through which is fair enough. It is far easier not to believe in god than to know god and hate god.
The truth is that the saints and the prophets who were the seed of organised religion went through a similar experience to what I went through. Take Abraham/Ibrahim in the Bible. He experienced psychosis which almost made him kill his son. There are always these people who experience the influence of this non-corporeal entity or entities through civilisation and across cultures. Other people take their life stories and their teachings and whatever else to use for their own ends. This is what religion is and this is the problem with religion. The organised religions are like politicians and monarchs in that they forget the message of those who fought and suffered to found whatever system.
Antitheism, in my definition, is the loneliest faith in the world. It involves seeing the sh@t which god has caused and bearing the responsibility to change it. It is a miserable faith that I would want no one to be part of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morethanhuman ( talk • contribs) 14:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" - said a famous Communist. Or something like that.
Should there be some discussion here of how Communism has viewed religion? Just wondering.
--
Atikokan (
talk) 05:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
We have antitheism, but we don't have antiagnosticism in Wikipedia.
An editor claims Special:Diff/1040748337 that secularism and "secular context" are different
And that "secular context" essentially means or requires opposition to ( bias or phobia against) deities.
Yet secular in his or her Special:Diff/1040748337 revision after undoing redirects to "secularism" page on wiki
The mainstream definition of secularism has been seperation of religion and politics not exactly opposition unless in the context of Dechristianisation of France communist Soviet genocide Uigyur genocide and Reign of Terror etc perpetrated by radical left ideologues Nolicmahr ( talk) 08:10, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Uyghur_genocide Nolicmahr ( talk) 08:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
From the main article:
Flint's Baird Lecture for 1877 was entitled Anti-Theistic Theories.[6] He used it as a very general umbrella term for all opposition to his own form of theism, which he defined as the "belief that the heavens and the earth and all that they contain owe their existence and continuance to the wisdom and will of a supreme, self-existent, omnipotent, omniscient, righteous, and benevolent Being, who is distinct from, and independent of, what He has created."[7] He wrote: ...
_____
According to some definitions of selfhood, the environment is part of the self ( being–environment selfhood). For example I have a memory that belongs to me; and it doesn't matter if I keep it flesh like as neural connectome, on a paper or digitally. Especially in the case one everyday reads something; that is part of her/his selfhood (according to the environmental[ist] selfhood hypothesis; I don't claim that this is the sole view, but it has to be mentioned. It's also an antitheist[ic] view, because the typical superstrong Abrahamic God (the first bearer of personhood), is a separate being (rare newage-like heretical views do exist). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:889E:3000:BCA9:FE23:B968:CFFD ( talk) 00:43, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Radical atheism and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 16 § Radical atheism until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 ( talk) 19:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
This article currently references the Oxford English Dictionary, but the online version (www.oed.com) differs significantly from the information given here. The online version defines anti-theism as "The theory or belief that the doctrines of theism are wrong; opposition to or rejection of theism or theists" (earliest reference 1788), but anti-theist as "A person who is opposed to or critical of theism or theistic belief; a proponent or advocate of anti-theism" (earliest reference 1627). TonyP ( talk) 19:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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that depends whether you believe god exists, or "not", because; opposing an entity you do "not" believe exists, compared to opposing a god you believe "does", or might, exist, are completely different.
the question here is flawed, because there is no need for a word to specify the opposing of "god", but there needs to be a clarification to the definition of what it is we mean when we claim "someone, or something is opposing "GOD".
-) opposing a god one believes exists, would mean one's "personal judgement", even if through "sanity", or "insanity" (caused by i.e mental illness), is taking a higher priority over the word of "supposed" god.
-) opposing a god we do "not" believe exists, makes us directly clash with the "supposed" entities that claim god does exist.
(Moved from User talk:Snalwibma because it seems to belong better here. Refers to this edit)
My inclusion of the number of deaths caused by Soviets not only provides an example of what militant atheism does, rather than purely a definition of the concept, but puts into context the actual significance of it. The page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism has an entire section related to attacks and deaths and pages on the Nazism or the Holocaust will also cite figures. There is no valid reason to leave such key information out. I will be adding this back to the article unless you can provide an explanation of how it (statistics) is 'political' and why related areas of wikipedia include statistical information but this section shouldn't. Utopial ( talk) 13:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
(Outdent). I've deleted the lot. We seem to be crowbarring in Bolsheviks and Communisms to fit a number of misconceptions about what is Communism and the causes of any deaths. The Bolsheviks were democratic centralist (as embodied in the Twenty-one Conditions) and their drive was for class war. As the Russian Orthodox Church levied taxes and was part of the government of Tsarist Russia then it is pretty clear they're going to be on the losing side in a revolution or class war against the Imperialist state (the same revolution in France with the Royalists+Clergy against the People. The Eastern Orthodox Church clergy supported the White Army in the Russian Civil War, and occasionally collaborated with it or were anti-Bolshevik. What the section fails to highlight is how the Russian Orthodox got embroiled in politics and war and ended up on the losing side. Thus it is certainly not clear if any deaths cited can be accurately allocated to "antitheism" (which is what this article is after all), or as a result of taking sides in a civil war, or opposing the ruling Bolshevik/Communist mechanisms of governance that would preclude a competitive class. Oddly enough under Stalin we have the promotion of the Church (for political purposes) though Stalin is cited as loving his purges but he purged those he saw as political enemies irrespective of their faith. Ttiotsw ( talk) 06:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
tables are only martyrs and dont include the other deaths caused by stalin - which as i said and have read is more like 70m. Utopial ( talk) 07:44, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Let me guess these sources are fringe. The New York Times article for example which is about just 1 location. As for the making apologies for the murder of theists according to your above statements Father Paul Florensky just could not have died the way he did- because he mixed math and religion is inexcusable, [3] and was not for political reasons as it is shown in the articles above atheism was the only acceptable position. As the edit warring now leaves NO MENTION AT ALL. Which is totally unethical and historically dishonest. LoveMonkey ( talk) 00:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
For an editor to refer to something as fringe that I just sourced as
It is not acceptable. If someone criticizes a source that is not the same as defaming it wholesale- as fringe. Now that type of wholesale platitude and blanket generalization is true fundamentalism. LoveMonkey ( talk) 01:29, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Your actions betray your words. You have blanket deleted. You have defamed by trying to disregard accepted research under the justification that it is now fringe. However it is not just because you say so. You have blanket deleted without getting consensus and then repeated that tactic. Your actions are what I am addressing. And since they do not reflect your words. It is your actions that I will continue to speak to. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
WELL I'LL SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THIS NOW,---
A perfect example of "ANTI-THEISM, was when the emperor HIROHITO was made to publicly express to the country of Japan that he was IN FACT, (OR WAS IT IN "UN"FACT?), NOT a descendant of ANY GOD.
The relevant question here is of course, WHY DID THEY MAKE HIM DO THIS? -- and then again, of course, we will have plenty of answers that go in to MANY different directions... BUT ONE THING IS UNDENIABLE!
THE FACT THAT HIROHITO WAS BELIEVED TO BE SOME MYSTICAL GODLY DESCENDANT WAS IN FACT GIVING HIM AMAZING SUPER POWERS, THIS MAN WAS THE HIRO NAKAMURA OF HIS TIME.
SO TO OPPOSE THIS SO BELIEVED TO BE GOD WITH ANTI-THEISM, WAS NOT TO SPREAD DISBELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF ANY GOD, OR EVEN DISBELIEF THAT HIROHITO WAS A DESCENDANT OF ANY GOD, BUT IT WAS MERELY TO FLIP THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN THAT THIS MAN AND HIS FAMILY WERE PLAYING, AND MANIPULATING MASSES OF PEOPLE WITH.
THE ROYAL FAMILY HAS STRIPPED HOW MANY COMMONERS OF THEIR POTENTIAL BELIEF TO BE DESCENDED FROM A GOD!?
ANTI-THEISM OR EVEN ATHEISM, OR WHATEVER YOU WILL FOR IT TO BE CALLED IS NOT THE REJECTION OR DISBELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF ANYTHING, BUT MERELY THE REJECTION OF YOUR JUSTIFICATION TO YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS BELIEFS TO DEFINE WHAT IS GOOD AND POSITIVE, WHILE RIDING ON THE BACKS OF BILLIONS OF STUPID PEOPLE, WHEN YOU ARE TRULY JUST ANOTHER WITCH WITH A VOODOO SPELL BOOK!
NOBODY CAN PROVE THAT GOD DOES "NOT" EXIST, JUST LIKE NOBODY CAN PROVE THAT HE "DOES". IT IS MERELY OUR EMOTIONS THAT TAKE OVER WHEN STRUCK BY THE HARDSHIPS OF WHATEVER THAT HAS CAUSED THEM, OR EVEN THE EMOTIONS OF OUR JOYS, AND FOR SOME REASON WE ALWAYS FEEL LIKE BEING POETIC ABOUT IT.
BUT ONCE AGAIN UNDENIABLE IS, THE FACT THAT THEISTS ARE OBSTRUCTING THE PROGRESS OF FACT DRIVEN RESEARCH, AND ARE MAINTAINING A STRUCTURE AS BIG AS THE FACT DRIVEN INDUSTRY, AS CORRUPT AS THE FACT DRIVEN INDUSTRY, BUT REFUSE TO JOIN THE ART INDUSTRY, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO LOSE TO THE FACT DRIVEN INDUSTRY.
-DROP MIC- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.104.104.33 ( talk) 15:46, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Religious Martyrs
o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page [9] estimating the number of martyrs since the origin of each religion:
* Atheists: 31,689,000
[11]
and
The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
LoveMonkey ( talk) 01:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
First: Is "antitheism" the same as "militant atheism" in the context of Soviet repression of relgion? If not, then this dicussion should be happening on other pages. That's the first issue to resolve. I am surprised to see "antitheism" regarded as a synonym of "militant atheism", because I do think they represent different things. This is a question about the scope of the article, and we need to resolve this first.
Secondly: what sources do we use to cite figures as to the numbers killed by repressive State Atheism? Not, I would suggest fringe sources such as those suggested, or even the Ottawa Citizen, but mainstream historical research published in reliable mainstream sources. I've already suggested the Black Book of Communism as one possible source, but I will find some more historical papers and publications. However, this is all academic if the information belongs under other articles on the Society of the Godless, or State Atheism or whatever.
I have no interest in downplaying what was the often brutal Leninist/Stalinist repression of Christians and others. I just want wikipedia to reflect mainstream research, not just estimates on the extreme high end. This is how Wikipedia policy says we should proceed.
So, I will go away and find some good research which we may be able to cite here. In the meantime we should talk about whether "militant atheism" belongs here at all, or if it should appear in another article. -- Dannyno ( talk) 12:53, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Again your actions betray your words. For you can not justfy this edit you did today. [12]
And if I disagree with the contents or edits being made to an article I am to take it up on the articles talkpage. I think it noteworth that the policy on wikipedia is to bend to the whim of administrators and that it is not a matter of sources it is a matter of the whim of administrators as the argumentative sorrowful browbeating of editors here and my afd on the libertarian metaphysical article shows. LoveMonkey ( talk) 23:28, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Administrator Silence posted this comment.
LoveMonkeys response.
These are the sources I posted. Plenteous. You are being argumentive.
Also........ see Dimitry Pospielovsky [13]. [14]) [15] [16] [17] LoveMonkey ( talk) 16:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm saddened by the way in which LoveMonkey has presented those supposedly conclusive sources. In fact, they are odd. First of all, the issue is what historians think happened, not various martyr memorial sites; second none of the sources posted support the 20 million figure from World Christian Trends. Indeed, only one even mentions that figure, and then only to say they've not been able to consult World Christian Trends or assess the figures. I own Storming the Heavens, and it does not support the 20 million figure or cite World Christian Trends. I searched Their Blood Cries Out on amazon.co.uk, and it does not support the 20 million figure or cite World Christian Trends. I also own the three volume set on Soviet Antireligious Campaigns, and that doesn't support the 20 million figure or cite World Christian Trends either. In other words, each and every of the "sources" you have posted is irrelevant, even the one which mentions the figure and the source (only to say they've not read it). Third, the "New Martyrs" concept is new to me but appears to be widespread, and there is a wikipedia entry on New Martyrs. Perhaps you could legitimately refer to some of those sources on that article? -- Dannyno ( talk) 17:43, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Dannyno wrote
I'm saddened by the way in which LoveMonkey has presented those supposedly conclusive sources.
LoveMonkeys response
Comment is meaningless conjecture and does nothing at best it muses over and makes unproductive comments on editors emotional state that no one has requested.
Dannyno wrote
In fact, they are odd.
LoveMonkeys response
I guess that's almost an improvement over your previously calling the figure and the source fringe.
Dannyno wrote
First of all, the issue is what historians think happened, not various martyr memorial sites; second none of the sources posted support the 20 million figure from World Christian Trends.
LoveMonkeys response
Forgive my restrained but frustrated response, in that you are misrepresenting the data posted and what is only defaming a widely used and valid source in that you continue to misrepresent and mislead by leaving out Whites comment that Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it Site from the World Christian Encyclopedia.
o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page [21] estimating the number of martyrs since the origin of each religion:
Let alone I posted that the Ottawa Citizen validates at least 15 million...
* 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith. * citing Paul Marshall, ---Their Blood Cries Out--
So the Ottawa Times is lying about --Their Blood Cries Out--? And the Ottawa Citizen then validates the larger number of 24 million total.
* Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It * 40M Christians martyred throughout history. * ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists * ca. 8M k. by other Christians
So is White lying about the Ottawa Citizen? Is the Ottawa Citizen? I have now posted this repeatedly and you keep ignoring and denying it, why?
Not just this but you are also defaming the historical and scientific evidence of a horrible and evil tragic human set of atrocities (martyr memorial sites). Your sad over some sort of perceived wiki policy violations, but even if the numbers 10 million it seems completely lost on you. You edit and revert warred when all you had to do was post the total as 15 to 20 million depending on source.
Dannyno wrote
Third, the "New Martyrs" concept is new to me but appears to be widespread, and there is a wikipedia entry on
New Martyrs. Perhaps you could legitimately refer to some of those sources on that article?
LoveMonkeys response
I already have. Post the figures from the books you claim to own. What are the figures from those works Dannyno. Post them..I posted them as quoted by the Ottawa Citizen via White. Thats 2 sources using and posting numbers you say are not there.
LoveMonkey (
talk) 00:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Forgive my restrained but frustrated response, in that you are misrepresenting the data posted and what is only defaming a widely used and valid source in that you continue to misrepresent and mislead by leaving out Whites comment that Britannica and the World Almanac cite from it Site from the World Christian Encyclopedia.
This issue obviously upsets you, but I’m not trying to “misrepresent” or “defame” anything. All I’m doing is pointing out that the source is fringe, and that citing it gives it undue weight. The figure you have in mind of 70 million total victims of Leninist/Stalinist oppression is on the far extreme upper range of estimates. That’s why the source is fringe and quoting it is undue weight. Other statistics in the source may be fine; the general methodology used by the editors may be entirely mainstream – but this particular figure is fringe.
You accuse me of misrepresentation and being misleading by leaving out the comment “Britannia and the World Alamanac cite from it”. Strictly speaking, this is irrelevant because the problem here is with a particular figure which is out of line with the scholarly mainstream, not with the source as a whole (though serious questions have indeed been raised about the source as a whole, by professionals and academics – why, after all, was World Christian Trends, intended to be vol 3 of WCE, not published by OUP?). Unfortunately, it is White’s statement which is at very least misleading. What does it mean, exactly? Does it mean that the World Almanac and Encyclopaedia Britannica quote WCT’s martyrdom statistics? Neither do so. The fact of the matter is that David Barratt, of the WCE and WCT, calculates Britannica’s Book of the Year world religious adherents table of statistics – which are the basis for the World Almanac’s data.
[23]. This is not relevant to my point.
-- Dannyno ( talk) 21:08, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
LoveMonkeys response
Let alone I posted that the Ottawa Citizen validates at least 15 million...
* 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith. * citing Paul Marshall, ---Their Blood Cries Out--
So the Ottawa Times is lying about --Their Blood Cries Out--? And the Ottawa Citizen then validates the larger number of 24 million total.
* Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It * 40M Christians martyred throughout history. * ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists * ca. 8M k. by other Christians
So is White lying about the Ottawa Citizen? Is the Ottawa Citizen? I have now posted this repeatedly and you keep ignoring and denying it, why?
When you first cited the Ottawa Citizen stuff, I observed that we need reliable, mainstream, scholarly historical sources. This is neither ignoring the Ottawa Citizen, nor “denying” it . All the Ottawa Citizen is reported to have done is quote a couple of books, which use data I have already pointed out conflicts with mainstream historical estimates on total deaths in the USSR. The Ottawa Citizen advances the discussion not one iota further. No, I don’t think White is lying about the Ottawa Citizen. I’m sure he’s quite right that the Ottawa Citizen quoted those books. The issue is with the data, and the fact that the data is fringe. Of course, it’s worth saying once again that White, in quoting the Ottawa Citizen, is not doing so out of approval, but as part of a critical discussion of such figures. However, I double checked the Ottawa Citizen, using Nexis UK. I found the article of 20 December 1998 cited by White. And it turns out that although Marshall is quoted, he doesn’t provide the 15 million figure. No, that figure is quoted from the World Christian Encyclopedia. The article says, “It is estimated that at least 18 million Eastern Orthodox and Catholic believers died between 1917 and 1980, most of them in the Soviet Union's prison camps.”, which is a different claim to that being considered here . “Their Blood Cries Out”, which I’ve searched using Amazon, doesn’t use the WCE’s 18/20 million figures. If anyone has the book itself, and can cite Marshall using that data, then let them do so and I’ll accept the correction. However, it won’t affect my point. Then I checked the 6 Feb 1993 Ottawa Citizen article. The D. Barrett cited is of course the editor of the World Christian Encyclopedia, so it’s not an independent source. And more fundamentally there is nothing in the article that is relevant to the present discussion.
LoveMonkeys response
Not just this but you are also defaming the historical and scientific evidence of a horrible and evil tragic human set of atrocities (martyr memorial sites). Your sad over some sort of perceived wiki policy violations, but even if the numbers 10 million it seems completely lost on you. You edit and revert warred when all you had to do was post the total as 15 to 20 million depending on source.
I take exception to this abuse. Please desist. What we want here are mainstream historical references. The martyr memorial sites you posted, apart from not being the kind of mainstream historical references we need here, also did not mention anything of relevance to the particular issue under discussion. I reject the accusation of “revert warring”. I removed the disputed data, explained why, and invited discussion. Instead of that, and being able to arrive at a consensus, I’ve been forced to defend myself from accusations of “misrepresentation” and all kinds of other dreadful things. I volunteered the Black Book of Communism’s figures. I’ve had no feedback on that, and in any case we have a more central debate now about whether or not this article is even encyclopaedic. I remain willing to post mainstream figures once we have a consensus about where we are going (and I have time).
LoveMonkeys response
Post the figures from the books you claim to own. What are the figures from those works Dannyno. Post them..
“Claim”? Was that necessary? I’ve cited Robert Conquest’s data on total victims from the Encyclopedia Britannica. The Black Book of Communism I’ve also already cited. However, it discusses religious persecution especially on p.172-174 without attempting to provide total numbers of victims on specifically religious grounds. Peris’ Storming the Heavens, which you cited, doesn’t provide any statistics on total victims, as I said – I’ve just now skimmed through it again. Pospielovsky, “A History of Marxist-leninist atheism and soviet anti-religious policies”, vol 1, gives some estimated data for priests, but only says “incalculable millions” for lay believers (p.ix). There are no overall stats in the three volumes.
LoveMonkeys response
I posted them as quoted by the Ottawa Citizen via White. Thats 2 sources using and posting numbers you say are not there.
It’s not that the numbers are not there, but that they are the same numbers. All you have here is White referring to two Ottawa Citizen articles, both of which are citing the figures were are disputing here.
-- Dannyno ( talk) 21:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
On WCT: the problem, as I've said, is that the numbers given there are quite clearly at the far extreme end of estimates. Citing them and them alone is thus to give the far extreme estimate undue weight. That's the problem wikipedia faces in using those numbers.
You mention that WCT is "used by major encyclopedias". That's misleading. What is used by Britannica are estimates from the editors of the World Christian Encyclopedia/WCT (using its methodology) for its "Book of the Year" world religious affiliation statistics. Which doesn't at all address my point about undue weight being given to the WCT's estimates on deaths as a consequence of anti-religious policy. The EB article on the USSR gives the number of deaths from the 1921 famine as 5.1 million. Dekulakisation is said to have led to 2 million deaths; 2 million Kazaks probably died in the collectivisation effort; during the 1932-33 famine another 8 million died; the 1937 census counted 162 million people, set against an expected 177 million - thus 15 million short. EB says "The population deficit, including a decline in births, was thus some 15 million, of which premature death due to deportation and famine are believed to account for at least 10 million." During the 1937/38 purges, half of the 2.3 million party members were executed or died in labour camps. This terror also led to 5 million arrests among the public, and EB says that about 10 % survived. The article is written by Robert Conquest. The total number of victims of Lenin and Stalin is thus somewhere around the 20+ million mark, by his reckoning. Calling of them "martyrs" absolutely undue weight.
I agree with you on the issue of sources needing to specifically mention "antitheism". Were "antitheism" a clear position it would be possible to look back and see who fitted the definition. But it isn't a clear position - that's where I'm coming from: this whole article is unencyclopedic as it stands. All we have here is a bunch of unrelated uses of a particular term. It's not useful. -- Dannyno ( talk) 19:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
This article should only be for the use of antitheism. We should not use any section or reference unless it uses the words, antitheism or antitheist. This article is drifting into a WP:COATRACK for post-child anti-clericalism which is a completely different beast from anti-theism. I propose that we drop all the sections that are presenting anti-clericalism as anti-theism and use a See also to anti-clericalism. This means dropping the sections on the Soviet Union and Albania. These are anti-clerical and in most cases anti-catholic, for obvious reasons if you are running a country. Ttiotsw ( talk) 15:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
this section is unencylopedic (the article tag has noted this about the article). It reads like a tabloid or diary of the latest happenings. I am transferring this information here for the meantime. If necessary, a new category article can be created for 'militant atheists', the category link can be put on this article's footer and descriptions of their militant atheism can go in each individuals biography article.
Further examples of the term militant atheism include:
Counting through the references: Baggini is negative, #9 (Dawkins) is just a google search' #10 (Dawkins) is neutral as written; #11 (Harris) is just a google search; #12 (Harris) doesn't actually call Harris a militant atheist directly - Hari refers to himself in such terms in distinguishing himself from Harris; #13 (Bradlaugh) links to an inaccurate article (Bradlaugh did not "refuse" to swear allegiance); #14 (Feuerbach) is neutral but unexplained; #15 (Besant) doesn't seem to mention militant atheism, as far as I can tell - it's a confusing site; #16 (McCabe) appears to be neutral but is undefined; #17 (Newdow) comes from the magazine of the John Birch society. It's not online but I'm guessing its negative; #18 (Newdow) is used in a negative commentary; #19 (Schopenhauer) is a rejection of the label, but there is no indication of what is meant by it; #20 (Crick) similarly doesn't explain the meaning of the term, while apparently regarding it as negative; #21 (Moore) is pejorative; #22 (Persaud) is neutral going on negative but doesn't explain the meaning of the term; #24 (Drum) is neutral as part of negative commentary, but doesn't explain the meaning of the term; #25 (Eskow) is pejorative; #26 (Hobson) is pejorative; #27 (Argibay) is self-applied without explanation; #28 (Cohen on Foot) doesn't explain what is meant by the term; #29 (Griffin) is self-applied but her actual position appears to be merely that she doesn't care what anyone believes, which isn't especially militant!; #30 (Holcroft) is mildly negative but also unexplained; #31 (Engels) leaves the phrase unexplained; #32 (Lenin) at least explains what is meant; #33 (League of Militant Godless) again is self-explanatory; #34 (Phillips) is pejorative; #35 (Blackburn) is pejorative; #35 (Fiala) is hostile but also doesn't properly define the term.
So I don't see that "many" of the references are approving at all. And after all that, what has the reader learned? Not much. The League of Militant Godless clearly aren't on the same ideological page as, say, Charles Bradlaugh or Polly Toynbee. And while there is an apologetic that would lump them all together, actually "militant atheism" has little real meaning outside of certain organisations of pre-WW2 USSR. It's looking to me that this is wasting everyone's time. -- Dannyno ( talk) 20:20, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
this isnt antitheism, it's pro-atheism. if anywhere it should go in the atheism article. it's also 2 long and poorly written. Ill place it here in case someone wants to use it.
Harvard botanist and Christian Asa Gray, one of the first supporters of Darwin's theory of evolution, first noted the phenomenon in 1868 when he referred to "the English-materialistic-positivistic line of thought". [18] Such thought was usually associated with Thomas Huxley at the time.
The religious nature of Huxley's beliefs were referenced in Janet Browne's biography of Charles Darwin:
Huxley was rampaging on miracles and the existence of the soul. A few months later, he was to coin the word "agnostic" to describe his own position as neither a believer nor a disbeliever, but one who considered himself free to inquire rationally into the basis of knowledge. . .
The term fitted him well . . . and it caught the attention of the other free thinking, rational doubters in Huxley's ambit, and came to signify a particularly active form of scientific rationalism during the final decades of the 19th century...
In his hands, agnosticism became as doctrinaire as anything else—a religion of skepticism. Huxley used it as a creed that would place him on a higher moral plane than even bishops and archbishops. All the evidence would nevertheless suggest that Huxley was sincere in his rejection of the charge of outright atheism against himself.
To inquire rigorously into the spiritual domain, he asserted, was a more elevated undertaking than slavishly to believe or disbelieve. "A deep sense of religion is compatible with the entire absence of theology," he had told [Anglican clergyman] Charles Kingsley back in 1860. "Pope Huxley", the [magazine] Spectator dubbed him. The label stuck." [19]
Dan Barker is an American atheist writer, former Christian minister, and co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation. In 1993, Barker wrote an article on "Evangelical atheism" in which he provided advice to atheists interested in promoting atheism:
I am not suggesting that every atheist should be an evangelist. Some are better off temporarily keeping their views to themselves for job security or family harmony. Some freethinkers wisely wait until they retire, when they have little to lose, before they become vocal. In certain communities, open unbelief can be costly. [...]
If you decide to be evangelistic, then ask yourself what you hope to accomplish. Are you trying to win an argument? To simply end an argument? To demolish the enemy? To chase bigoted theocrats from your door?
We want to enhance self image, not squash it. You can't yank someone out of the fold. If your objective is to end up with a friend, then woo them, don't boo them. You may not respect their current views, but you can respect their potential to learn. [20]
Paul Kurtz, editor in chief of Free Inquiry, has written an opinion piece criticizing the criticism of Dawkins, Harris and Daniel Dennett in which he discusses the usage of the term "evangelical" in this context. [21]
References
The New World Encyclopedia control and funding is in part from the Universal Peace Federation who has a motto of "One Family Under God." It is part of the Unification Church as an affiliated Educational organizations. Given the church founder sees a "dark spirit of atheism" (ref: [24]) it is unreasonable to expect that the New World Encyclopedia would be neutral in defining anything related to Atheism or secular philosophies without an editorial spin that would make it not very neutral. Ttiotsw ( talk) 11:51, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
There was a section in this article that went: "According to historian Michael Burleigh, antitheism found its first mass expression in revolutionary France in response to organised resistance to "organised ... irreligion...an 'anti-clerical' and self-styled 'non-religious' state. [1]
The Soviet Union imposed state atheism and antireligious campaigns were directed at all faiths [2], including Christian, Buddhist and Shamanist religions. The government nationalised all church property, executed clergy, prohibited the publication of most religious material and persecuted members of religious groups [3] [4]. The result of this was the death of 21 million Russian Orthodox Christians by the Soviet government, not including torture or other religious ethnicities killed. [5]
Communist Albania imposed state atheism and had an objective for the eventual destruction of all religion in Albania, including a constitutional ban on religious activity and propaganda [6]. The government nationalised most property of religious institutions and religious literature was banned. Many clergy and theists were tried, tortured, and executed. All foreign Roman Catholic clergy were expelled in 1946. [7] [8]"
There has been a heated discussion about whether such information should be included and I suspect it is not in the right form. But there should be some recognition that antitheism has not, historically, been purely a matter of pamphleteering. Since atheists often seek to contrast their militancy, which is allegedly purely verbal, with religious militants who (sometimes) kill people NBeale ( talk) 08:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
References
There's a big problem here - we present just one definition of militant atheism, meaning "actively hostile to religion". But later, we present a couple of sources of different people referring to Dawkins and Harris as "militant". The fallacy is that there is no evidence that they are using the same definition as Julian Baggini. (Other definitions might include anyone who is activist - similar to "militant feminists"; in some cases it might even be used by atheists to describe themselves or other people, without it intended to imply hostility or hatred.) Similarly for the other atheists listed there.
So I would suggest we really need more sources to describe different meanings of "militant" (and note that most of them are not related to antitheism). It's also probably best to attribute the labels used for Dawkins and Harris (and perhaps the others listed there), since we only have one source for each (Google searches are not reliable sources).
Also see Militant#Adjective_usage which gives definitions such as "aggressive, especially in the service of a cause", and does not seem to necessarily go as far as to say hostility or hatred. Also note Militant#Span_of_militancy which states "The phrase militant atheist is usually used confrontationally when discussing those people who are more outspoken than the general population on subjects which explicitly or implicitly promote atheism[27], but is also used in a non-contentious manner to describe those who persecute religion in general." - I agree with this, and I think this should be mentioned here too. Mdwh ( talk) 21:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I see no evidence that Baggini's definition is in the least controversial. If there are other definitions from reliable sources then by all means quote them. But we can't just sweep a carefully researched item (with dozens of refs) away and put up a DAB page which is pure OR. I've reinstated the material in the Militant atheism article to avoid your concerns about the "questionable" link with Antitheism. We should not be trying to hide this material. NBeale ( talk) 12:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Now, OK, I'm headed into original research here. The point is that Baggini sets up a position he characterises as "militant", and argues against it. What he doesn't do in Atheism:avsi is identify anybody who he considers "militant" (I know he has more recently attacked the so called "new atheists"), beyond an inconclusive mention in passing of Bertrand Russell.
So all you've got is Baggini's characterisation of a position against which he wishes to position his form of atheism. Fine and dandy. Question is, fascinating though this may be to people studying Baggini's atheism (in which case it needs discussion on his wiki article), but is it significant more widely - or do we give it undue weight? -- Dannyno ( talk) 19:01, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
the basis for this article is ridiculous. atheism is NOTHING more than the rejection of a belief in deities. god believers want so badly to portray atheism as some sort of evil they will stoop to any level to accomplish their little propaganda attempts. This article is one such example. Soviet "militant atheism" is obnoxious attempt by religionists (or simply really ignorant people) to portray atheism as evil or something that leads to evil. atheism is not a collection of beliefs nor is it a manifesto. There is nothing violent about rejecting god belief. and if one chooses to be violent it is not their rejection fo god belief that makes them do it. it's no wonder that wikipedia is despised by so many. I've read the commentary on this page and it's pretty obvious what is right has little to do with what is written here. so cling to your fantasies and mislead people all you want. You're good at it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 17:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Then explain the deaths under atheist governments please. If religion were bad and atheism good, please explain the gas chambers, the Ukrainian famine, the GLF and the GPCR -- events which killed millions. Unfortunately, you appear to be living in a fantasy and this article needs a far more balanced approach to atheism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.203.110 ( talk) 22:20, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Militant simply means overly agressive in support of a cause. It is as possible for someone to be a militant atheist as much a they could be peaceful atheist and all the emotional responces in the world won't change that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.149.80 ( talk) 04:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Clearly the reason for extensive discussion here is that one contributor tries to push a NPOV. For example the main article on Catholicism does not mention any atrocities by the catholic church at all, no mention of Inquisition or clear cases such as the execution of Bruno. That is fine. These can be discussed in more direct entries as they are. The same is the case here. Stalin's atheism and genocidal behavior is well described in relevant pages (namely under Stalin/Stalinism). This is where they belong. I think there is a very shallow conflation with antisemitism. Just because a label has "anti" in it the word doesn't automatically mean hostile and genocidal. The Antisemitism has a section on the evolution of the meaning of the word and a good historic outline of the concept through history. That's a good way of doing it! Just trying to categorically link anti-theism to atrocities by Stalin and nothing else is at best misleading and lazy at worst just pushing a NPOV. For example contemporary anti-theists do by no means advocate violance or demeaning attitudes against theists, see Hitchens. Modern anti-theism states that religious believes are to the detriment of people and it is opposed to theistic believes. Stalinism does not match this definition hence it is well places in its current category (Stalinism). 141.212.109.98 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC).
I found this page trying to figure out the (sometimes subtle) difference(s) between atheism, antitheism, nontheism, etc. Until recently I was aware only of the existence of something I thought to be atheism, but apparently even the nonbelievers are fragmented in different (but not necessarily disjoint) denominations.
Anyway, I noticed that this page has been POV-tagged for almost a year now and not much seems to be happening. Has the issue been resolved and if not, can I help trying to get the article fixed? Skysmurf ( talk) 01:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
As mentioned above, there are some areas in which this article could be expanded. Anyone feel free to expand either the article (and then crossing out the relevant entry on this list) or this list itself.
Skysmurf ( talk) 17:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
In all fairness I should have looked up the word before I used for my belief. I am an antitheist because I know god exists but I hate god. This may not be etymologically correct.
It is a unique belief system but it is based upon the knowledge of god's existence. I spent most of my life as an atheist and a strong one. I believed strongly in the dogma of science as the ultimate truth. Then I went through a period which some would call psychosis, others would call ego death, others would call a spiritual awakening and others would use other terms. During this process I became aware of another conscious or consciousnesses within my stream of consciousness. This entity was non-corporeal but could affect me, my thoughts and my actions. It could also control things in my external reality.
I'm not talking about philosophy here. I'm talking about a frightening experience but one which was very real to me. "Delusion" and "hallucination" are modern 'scientific' ways to doubt what I went through which is fair enough. It is far easier not to believe in god than to know god and hate god.
The truth is that the saints and the prophets who were the seed of organised religion went through a similar experience to what I went through. Take Abraham/Ibrahim in the Bible. He experienced psychosis which almost made him kill his son. There are always these people who experience the influence of this non-corporeal entity or entities through civilisation and across cultures. Other people take their life stories and their teachings and whatever else to use for their own ends. This is what religion is and this is the problem with religion. The organised religions are like politicians and monarchs in that they forget the message of those who fought and suffered to found whatever system.
Antitheism, in my definition, is the loneliest faith in the world. It involves seeing the sh@t which god has caused and bearing the responsibility to change it. It is a miserable faith that I would want no one to be part of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morethanhuman ( talk • contribs) 14:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" - said a famous Communist. Or something like that.
Should there be some discussion here of how Communism has viewed religion? Just wondering.
--
Atikokan (
talk) 05:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
We have antitheism, but we don't have antiagnosticism in Wikipedia.
An editor claims Special:Diff/1040748337 that secularism and "secular context" are different
And that "secular context" essentially means or requires opposition to ( bias or phobia against) deities.
Yet secular in his or her Special:Diff/1040748337 revision after undoing redirects to "secularism" page on wiki
The mainstream definition of secularism has been seperation of religion and politics not exactly opposition unless in the context of Dechristianisation of France communist Soviet genocide Uigyur genocide and Reign of Terror etc perpetrated by radical left ideologues Nolicmahr ( talk) 08:10, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Uyghur_genocide Nolicmahr ( talk) 08:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
From the main article:
Flint's Baird Lecture for 1877 was entitled Anti-Theistic Theories.[6] He used it as a very general umbrella term for all opposition to his own form of theism, which he defined as the "belief that the heavens and the earth and all that they contain owe their existence and continuance to the wisdom and will of a supreme, self-existent, omnipotent, omniscient, righteous, and benevolent Being, who is distinct from, and independent of, what He has created."[7] He wrote: ...
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According to some definitions of selfhood, the environment is part of the self ( being–environment selfhood). For example I have a memory that belongs to me; and it doesn't matter if I keep it flesh like as neural connectome, on a paper or digitally. Especially in the case one everyday reads something; that is part of her/his selfhood (according to the environmental[ist] selfhood hypothesis; I don't claim that this is the sole view, but it has to be mentioned. It's also an antitheist[ic] view, because the typical superstrong Abrahamic God (the first bearer of personhood), is a separate being (rare newage-like heretical views do exist). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:889E:3000:BCA9:FE23:B968:CFFD ( talk) 00:43, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Radical atheism and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 16 § Radical atheism until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 ( talk) 19:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
This article currently references the Oxford English Dictionary, but the online version (www.oed.com) differs significantly from the information given here. The online version defines anti-theism as "The theory or belief that the doctrines of theism are wrong; opposition to or rejection of theism or theists" (earliest reference 1788), but anti-theist as "A person who is opposed to or critical of theism or theistic belief; a proponent or advocate of anti-theism" (earliest reference 1627). TonyP ( talk) 19:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)