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There was a section under "antisemitism in islamic texts" and was about teh treatment of non-muslism within muslim states which had nothing to do with antisemitism, so i removed it.
Exactly. And on the broader outlook, calling stuff like this "antisemitism" cheapens the criticism of genuine antisemitism. -- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 11:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the confusion here arises because editors are assuming they are to interpret the content of the Qur'an. That can't be done in this article. It must be written up from recent scholarship interpreting what the Qur'an says. There is thus no point at all in falling out over whethe the Qur'an has bias against Muslims or not. All that needs to be done is to identify the important secondary sources that discuss the question, read them, and summarise fairly what they say. Itsmejudith 18:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, I love your new signature, Proabivouac. But you are mistaken. A green heart has more than one meaning. Hope, envy, love, -- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 09:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Beit Or, I will try to explain again. I don't doubt that you can find instances in the Islam where Jews were persecuted for being Jews. Targeted as Jews. With particular portrait of Jews as lazy, or greedy, or whatever. In these cases, we can call it antisemitism. But general exclusions of non-Muslims are NOT antisemitism. In the Christian world, there were several limitations for non-Christians. These were not antisemitic. There were specific limitations and persecution of Jews--these were antisemitic. One case (general exclusion) does not prevent the other (particular exclusion), but they are NOT the same thing. You may keep guessing my excuse motives to "single out Islam as an object of apologetics" (???) Or you may try to consider that maybe, just maybe, it is a good faith disagreement. Regarding scholarly sources, a brief search to JSTOR took me to Ben halpern, "What Is Antisemitism?" Modern Judaism, Vol. 1, No. 3. (Dec., 1981), pp. 251-262. [3] He wrote quite explicitly: "to note that antisemitism is "essencially" related to "the Jews" as its object suggest much more than a simple tautology, or its logically corolary, that antisemitism is a form of group prejudice." For Halpern, antisemitism is not only persecution of Jews, but the perception of "THE JEWS" as this collective being, different from others. Therefore, the name does not apply to general prejudices or persecutions, but to prejudices and persecutions that assume "THE JEWS" as a group with certain characteristics. It is not simply semantics. It is the concept itself that can be completely watered down if it applicable to anything in which Jews are ALSO involved, but without distinction from other groups.-- Ninarosa 10:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Why was the Psychology of Anti-semitism deleted? -- Thanatopsis2002 01:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC) thanatopsis2002
"Today, Denmark has one of the lowest rates of anti-semitism in Europe, at only 11%."
Oh really? How do you measure that? So 11% of all danish people are anti semitic? This is clearly either made up or from a rather dubious source, and should be removed forthwith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.47.164.89 ( talk) 14:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
Dude, don't be so hysterical. Ninarosa did not claim the report says that 11% of Danes are anti-semitic, only that there is a report on anti-Semitism in Denmark available in Danish. Which is true. Yes, it is also about anti-Muslims, but it is indeed about anti-Semitism too. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I would kindly request that you do not address me as 'dude', dude, and stick your rather ignorant references to being ”hysterial” where the sun don’t shine. Secondly, I suggest try reading the above again. Thirdly, the report is not about anti-Semitism in Denmark, as you claim - it contains references to (amongst many other things) anti-Semitism in Denmark. Orpingtonian 15:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
A recent very interesting study, widely syndicated, and to be published shortly in Kyklos, the Review for International Social Sciences, puts the rate of "bigotry" against Jews held by Danish citizens at only 2.5%. The countries with the most prevalence of bigotry against Jews appear to be Spain and Greece. It is notable that among five targets of bigotry studied (racial bigotry, anti-Muslim bigotry, anti-Jewish bigotry, anti-immigrant and anti-homosexual bigotry) anti-Jewish bigotry ranked fourth in prevalence while anti-Muslim bigotry ranked a close second in prevalence behind anti-homosexual attitudes. By the way, the report states that "the lowest proportion of bigoted persons was in Sweden (13 percent), Iceland (18 percent), Canada (22 percent), and Denmark (22 percent). Here is where you can read the report... [5]. BernardL 19:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Sefringle, I see you reverted the change of paragraphs I had done. Could you explain why? I don't want to revert it back before discussing it.
It seems to me that the other version was more logical: a) a general assertion about the dhimmis, b) followed by a paragraph discussing the status of Jews among dhimmis, c) the different oppinions regarding this status, and d) closing with a paragraph on historical conditions in which anti-Jews sentiments were identified. Nothing had been deleted. As it reads now, the general assertion about the dhimmis does not seem to relate to the rest of the article, and suggests that restrictions against "non-Muslims" are in fact anti-semitism.-- Ninarosa 20:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems that we are at an impasse because I disagree on both counts: because of the argument and because of the style. The original version is not fine. This paragraph...
Anti-Jewish sentiments usually flared up at times of the Muslim political or military weakness or when Muslims felt that some Jews had overstepped the boundary of humiliation prescribed to them by the Islamic law.[49] In Spain, ibn Hazm and Abu Ishaq focused their anti-Jewish writings on the latter allegation. This was also the chief motivation behind the massacres of Jews of Granada in 1066, when nearly 3,000 Jews were killed, and in Fez in 1033, when 6,000 Jews were killed. [50] There were further massacres in Fez in 1276 and 1465. [51]
is preceded by one about Dhimmis in general, and followed by another on the status of Jews as Dhimmis. As it is, it just does not belong there. Before getting to too many reverts, I would like to suggest still another version, keeping the paragraph, but edited, in a way that connects better the two "dhimmi" paragraphs.-- Ninarosa 04:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The section on Sweden is really poor. While it's terrible for the individual to be verbally attacked it is hardly interesting for an international audience to read about these minor incidents, especially when there have been much worse examples of antisemitism in Sweden. For instance, the attempt to burn down a jewish building in Malmö in 2003 and the existence of Radio Islam etc. Any Swedish speaking people around here that wish to comment on this? 212.105.37.165 09:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Iran, having vowed to wipe Israel off the map, appears to be fomenting anti-Semitic sentiment through its media. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250710,00.html
Crocoite 22:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC) (I'm striking-through the article summary and removing the hyperlink to FoxNews so I'm not accused of copyright infringement.)
Crocoite
22:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Is this article supposed to exist? [7] It looks like it's supposed to redirect, but isn't quite working? Maybe someone can fix it. Mackan79 04:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
N/p. Thanks, Mackan79 06:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I forget the name for this fallacy, but it uses two different meanings of the word to make dual assertions:
My question, of course, is not whether either point is valid, but rather Who makes the second point? (Casual conversation with acquaintances and co-workers is not source material.) -- Uncle Ed 17:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Mark Cohen is stating the view of majority of scholars regarding the issue we are writing about here. Why is it POV? It is a report. -- Aminz 10:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Dispute explanation: Mark Cohen Professor of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, in The Oxford Handbook of Jewish Studies states that:"most scholars concede that Arab anti-Semitism in the modern world arose relatively recently, in the nineteenth century, against the backdrop of conflicting Jewish and Arab nationalism, and was imported into the Arab world primarily by nationalistically minded Christian Arabs (and only subsequently was it "Islamized".
Cohen's research specialty is Jews in the Muslim world and is considered to be one of the leading scholars of the history of Jews in the Middle Ages under Islam.
The dispute is over inclusion of Cohen's quote attributed to him [12]. It was removed based on the arguments that "This is simply Cohen's belief that the majority of scholars support his view". Those users who want to include this argue that 1. the quote is explaining the view of majority of scholars on antisemitism in Muslim lands 2. the whole section on Islam is arranged and written with the aim of supporting the view of a minority of writers who believe Antisemitism has roots in the Qur'an and has been there from the beginning. -- Aminz 04:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. The view of the majority of scholars that Cohen is writing about for example matches with what Encyclopedia of Islam, a prestigous academic source on Islam, that writes:"Increased European commercial, missionary and imperialist activities within the Muslim world during the 19th and 20th centuries introduced anti-Semitic ideas and literature into the region. At first these prejudices only found a reception among Arabic-speaking Christian protégés of the Europeans in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt and were too new and too palpably foreign for any widespread acceptance among Muslims. However, with the ever-increasing conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine during the period of the British Mandate, the language and imagery of European anti-Semitism began to appear in political polemics both in the nationalist press and in books."-- Aminz 04:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
← Humus sapiens ну ?"Abd al-Mumin ... the leader of the Almohads after the death of Muhammad Ibn Tumart the Mahdi ... captured Tlemcen [in the Maghreb] and killed all those who were in it, including the Jews, except those who embraced Islam. ... [In Sijilmasa] One hundred and fifty persons were killed for clinging to their [Jewish] faith. ... One hundred thousand persons were killed in Fez on that occasion, and 120,000 in Marrakesh. The Jews in all [Maghreb] localities [conquered] ... groaned under the heavy yoke of the Almohads; many had been killed, many others converted; none were able to appear in public as Jews." [1]
</reset> Humus sapiens, My point is that we have a quote in which Cohen is giving the view of majority of scholars. We can continue this discussion but in Wikipedia, we are concerned with verifiability and not truth. -- Aminz 11:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not a regular editor here, and not well-aquainted with the literature. It looks like the two views are that antisemitism is 1) built into Islam; and 2) a modern artefact.
The section Antisemitism and the Muslim world says the main article is Islam and antisemitism, and to see also Arabs and antisemitism. Cohen's view is presented near the top in both of those. If this section is to summarize those more detailed pages, then it seems to me that Cohen's view should be similarly presented here. That said, the section is already quite long. Repetition should be avoided, summary style is good, etc. Might we put at the beginning of the section two succinct paragraphs summarizing the two views, and then go on to the chronological account? To keep the length down, we might shorten the paragraph of citations to the Qur'an, shorten the paragraph on dhimmis, and condense all the 'Cohen says/Goitein argues' into the first two paragraphs, moving the rest of it to Islam and antisemitism and/or Arabs and antisemitism. Tom Harrison Talk 14:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Another Suggestion:
I suggest this:
In this way we are acknowledging existence of discrimination and persecutions. -- Aminz 23:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Re RfC: The sentence should read that "most scholars concede etc." This is a scholar writing a dictionary. Maybe it's wrong, but anything could be wrong. HS, if you don't like this wording, then go out and find a good reference from a scholar who says that anti-Semitism didn't arise recently. HS, when I see an editor use insult, I am inclined to give the other side a second look. Jonathan Tweet 15:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC) Aminz, I can see why you like Cohen, but he doesn't deserve to be the sole reference in the section summary. The summary of the whole section should take into account history, context, etc. Cohen's comments are about the 19th century and belong in that subsection. I'm on your side about including Cohen, but don't overdo it. Jonathan Tweet 20:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I support the Cohen quote. Why will some users on this page not allow a reliable source? Bless sins 00:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to be long, also it seems to me to have some overly long sections duplicating content in other articles. It would be much punchier and better with a work through. Personally, I also think that an attempt to prove a point about something as exegetically complex as the New Testament by citing isolated verses isn't very clever (try reading them as you read the article: as isolated verses they are incredibly hard to follow, and it uses the New Testament like a cruddy tele-evangelist): it would be much more convincing to quote a couple of top tier Biblical scholars on the issue, wouldn't it?
On this other discussion, I think it is too much to ask for there to be a consistent definition of anti-S across the vast range of people who use the term so trying to tie down the article content based on definition is very difficult. Again, acknowledging the variation has to be a good start. -- BozMo talk 09:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I know that the dictionary tends to define "Antisemitism" as being "Anti-Jewish" but in a real life example, I think this is an error. Some years ago when I was on the student council of my university, a group of Palestinians came to the council in order to get funding for an event that they wanted to put on. Being the hardcore pro-Israel guy that I am and knowing full well that these people would in almost complete likelyhood going to use the event to spew anti-Jewish venom, I stated that the council should not fund any event that was antisemitic.
Well, it was at that point that the leader of the Palestinian group started screaming that they were not antisemitic because as Arabs, they are Semites themselves. Of course, this is true so I had to re-state and make the argument that the council should not support "anti-Jewish" events.
Sadly, since the student council was overwhelmingly left-wing, I was out-vote and the funding for the Palestinians went through.
But most importantly, I don't understand why the dictionary and people in general use the word "antisemitic" in relation to Jewish people even though it would appropriately be referring to Arabs as well. It's like saying that someone is anti-European and thinking that means it only refers to Albanians. Jewish people are a small part of the Semitic world yet this phrase is thought of as only applying to Jews. I think that trying to take the lead and correct this syntactical error would be a worthy undertaking for Wikipedia. Jtpaladin 21:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The article makes a number of Biblical and historical mistakes that would require a considerable effort to correct.
The attempt to understand NT scripture is poorly accomplished by whoever authored the information.
Also, the historical reasoning for persecution of Jewish people in the early days of Christianity up to the Middle Ages is either ommitted, left incomplete, or simply in conflict with historical accounts that can be easily obtained from the online source, the Jewish Encyclopedia.
I'll take it slow and try and make some corrections and add historical data. Jtpaladin 21:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Any reason why there is no mention of Shakespeare/ Merchant of Venice in this article? -- BozMo talk 12:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The following section was removed without any valid reason.
Please discuss things on the talk page. It may othoerwise be seen as an act of vandalism. // Liftarn
Liftarn, this is what, the 4th different way you've tried to insert this POV? First it was at List of political epithets, which was AfDd, then it was Antisemite (epithet) which was speedy deleted and upheld on Deletion Review, then it was Category:Political epithets, which was CfDd. This is quite disruptive, even for you. Please stop inserting this nonsense. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 16:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
C)
Some has argued that the charge of antisemitism is being misused as a way to silence critisism of Israel.<ref>“Partisans of Israel often make false accusations of anti-Semitism to silence Israel’s critics. The ‘antisemite!’ libel is harmful not only because it censors debate about Israel’s racism and human rights abuses but because it trivializes the ugly history of Jew-hatred.” (Handleman, Scott, "Trivializing Jew-Hatred," in ''The Politics of Anti-Semitism'', ed. [[Alexander Cockburn]]. AK Press, 2003, p. 13.)</ref><ref>“Apologists for Israel’s repression of Palestinians toss the word “anti-Semite” at any critic of what Zionism has meant in practice for Palestinians on the receiving end.” ([[Alexander Cockburn|Cockburn, Alexander]] and St. Clair, Jeffrey, preface to ''The Politics of Anti-Semitism'', ed. Alexander Cockburn. AK Press, 2003, p.vii.) </ref> <ref>"More importantly, Finkelstein exposes the nastiness of smearing the label of anti-Semitism on Israel's critics. Mostly, he tells us what we already know." (Paul, Ari. [http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/reviews/article.2005-10-11.0538333315 "Norman Finkelstein's ''Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Antisemitism and the Abuse of History''"]. ''Tikkun'', October 11, 2005.)</ref> <ref>"Instead of seriously engaging with the issues raised (e.g. to what extent are Israel's current policies similar to those of apartehid and to what extent are they not?), the Jewish establishment and media responds by attacking the people who raise these or any other critiques--shifting the discourse to the legitimacy of the messenger and thus avoiding the substance of the criticisms. Knowing this, many people become fearful that they too will be labeled "anti-Semitic" if they question the wisdom of Israeli policies or if they seek to organize politically to challenge those policies." ([[Rabbi Michael Lerner]]. [http://baltimorechronicle.com/2007/020207LERNER.shtml "There's no New Anti-Semitism"]. [[Baltimore Sun]], February 7, 2007.)</ref><ref>“The lack of debate is, of course, a measure of the power of the Israel lobby to suppress discussion of its role, and the fear the lobby stirs among American writers, especially non-Jewish liberals who cannot afford to be tarred as anti-Semites, a death sentence in the profession." ([[Adam Shatz|Shatz, Adam]]. [http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/adam_shatz/2006/03/post_9.html "Dialogue of the Deaf"]. ''The Guardian'', March 24, 2006.)</ref> <ref>"'I’ve been hurt — and so has my family — by some of the reaction,' Carter said. 'It’s the first time in my life I’ve ever been called a liar. A bigot. An anti-Semite. A coward. A plagiarist. He paused after each epithet. 'This has hurt,' he said." (Cohler-Esses, Larry. [http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13589 "Carter Faces, and Disarms, Jewish Crowd"]. The Jewish Week, January 26 2007.)</ref><ref>“The Great Silencer: No discussion of how the Lobby operates would be complete without examining one of its most important weapons: the charge of anti-Semitism. Anyone who criticizes Israeli actions or says that pro-Israel groups have significant influence over U.S. Middle East policy – an influence that AIPAC celebrates – stands a good chance of getting labeled an anti-Semite.” ([[John Mearsheimer|Mearsheimer, John]] and [[Stephen Walt|Walt, Stephen]]. [http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011 "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"]. KSG Faculty Research Working Paper Series, Harvard University, March 2006.)</ref> After [[Jimmy Carter]] published his book ''[[Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid]]'' he was labelled an antisemite.<ref>“The charge has been leveled at Jimmy Carter over his recent book, "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid." I, too, didn't like the book...Still, Carter's overall point about Israeli occupation of the West Bank is apt, and calling him all sorts of names does not change that...It's astonishing that in the 60 years since the Nazi extermination camps were liberated, anti-Semitism has revived and thrived. Still, it hardly makes sense to fight it by promiscuously throwing around the word "anti-Semite" so that it loses its punch or to flay Jewish critics of Israel." ([[Richard Cohen|Cohen, Richard]]. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/05/AR2007020501249.html "Cheapening the Fight Against Hatred"]. Washington Post, February 6, 2007.)</ref><ref>[http://imeu.net/news/article004053.shtml Philadelphia Inquirer: Truth at Last]</ref>
I must have missed the wiki policy that says to remove entire sourced sections when it is worded confusingly. But I'll go along with it. Can someone explain to me how to fix this so it is no longer worded confusiningly, and then I'll proceed to include it in the article once more.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 10:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
It's too much? It's only one sentence! -- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 18:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Look, I have no connection whatsoever with this. All I did was see a big red -4,472 on my watchlist, and I reverted it because it seemed like sourced info was being removed. And then I see complaints of it not being written properly. So I say ok, I'll put it on the talk page. And here it is. Now, I'm still waiting for suggestions to improve it and put it back in the article.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 10:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Reset indent. It's not a "point of view" that some people claim accusations of antisemitism are used to silence debate. There is no question that some people make that claim. What is controversial is whether the claim has any merit in terms of the effects or the motivation. The issue is how in the world it's relevant to an article about antisemitism. It's two sentences with endless footnoting at this point, but the argument has so much currency now that it certainly justifies its own article. -- Leifern 16:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's try to get this back on track. What are the specific complaints about the wording of the section in question? // Liftarn
HS has a point that major pogroms deserve prominent mention, as does the origin of 19th century Muslim antisemitism. Jonathan Tweet 20:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Aminz, don't be ridiculous. A pogrom against Jews is antisemitism, no strings attached.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 22:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Aminz, "it is okay to mention major pogroms." Agreed. Currently, the text refers to pogroms but doesn't label them antisemitic. I don't think we have to. Jonathan Tweet 09:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The relationships between the Jews and the Arabs throughout history have been the subject of numerous studies over many centuries. However, as long as the continuous Arab-Israeli conflict has not found a solution, historians will search through the past in order to find new evidence to prove the antiquity of the tension between the two communities and to illuminate its causes. The vicissitudes which have marked the lives of the Jews who lived under Arab rule or side-by-side with Muslims add to the complexity of the issue, and a great many of the assertions about Arab-Jewish relations made by scholars and amateurs alike are sheer speculation. This is particularly true of writers who strongly identify with either camp and have become emotionally involved in the subject. Consequently, the views they usually hold are often unbalanced, if not biased.
The present work, which comprises fifteen articles written in Hebrew by some eminent Orientalists, covers a kaleidoscope of topics and views whose common denominator is to portray the Muslims' reactions to Jews from the advent of Islam to the present time. However, after reading this interesting collection one can reach another surprising conclusion: in spite of the fact that most of the contributors are Jewish or Israeli Orientalists they have nevertheless provided us with well-balanced and usually well-argued accounts. This is no doubt due to the efforts and experience of the editor, Professor Hava Lazarus-Yafeh, one of the leading Israeli Orientalists, who has recently died.
In her introduction to the book the editor emphasizes two major points: (1) the conflict between the two communities has never been immanent and (2) in spite of the existence of discriminatory laws against Jews and Christians, such as 'the Pact of 'Umar', the prohibition against learning Arabic and reading the Qur'an, or laws compelling Jews to dress in distinguishing clothes, they have rarely been applied. Hence, the status of the Jews as ahl al-dhimmah normally enabled them to lead safe and peaceful lives under Islam, only occasionally disrupted during the times of certain rulers or their vizirs, or when conditions in general began to deteriorate within the Muslim empire.
In his important contribution entitled 'Islam and the Jews: Myth, Counter-Myth, History', Mark R. Cohen stresses the polarity of views among scholars in respect of the attitude of the Muslims towards the Jews. The author rejects the myth about inter-religious Utopia and the counter-myth which highlights the Jewish tragedy across history (named by S. Baron the 'lachrymose conception'). To prove this thesis about the coexistence between Jews and Arabs — as he prefers to see it — he analyses very skilfully some of the available sources and draws comparisons with Europe's often negative, if not disastrous, attitude towards the Jews.
Aminz, what on earth does your lengthy quote havfe to di with HS's point that "major pogroms deserve prominent mention?" Slrubenstein | Talk 10:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
So is www.zionism-israel.com a reliable source? If not would you like to have a look at the 113 other places on Wikipedia where it is cited? Or are there different levels of reliability on the same site? [18] -- BozMo talk 20:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I figured this would get deleted but was anticipating an explanation. For some, questioning Israel's right to exist is tantamount to antisemitism<ref>[http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000045.html Anti-Zionism, criticism of Israel and Anti-Semitism revisited], on a pro-Israel web site.</ref>. Comments? Jonathan Tweet 03:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Yep, it's a notable view. Look at the Anti-Zionism page and you'll see that it gets some real play. A quick summary here is warranted. Also, a summary here prevents an eager but ignorant editor from rushing in with a half-baked reference and adding the issue to the page (like I did). Jonathan Tweet 13:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Is throwing a rock at an Israeli tank antisemtic or foolish? 159.105.80.141 13:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
What makes you think that throwing a rock at an Israeli tank would be either "antisemtic" or foolish? Bus stop 15:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thats doesnt make any sense, Islam treat all human being same, that included jews, I dont see how Islam being anti-semites to the jews, its not Islam thats anti-semites, its just because jews betrayed the Muslim, for example in State of Palestine. At first they(the jews) were welcome to palastine, Muslim arent so care about, but then the jews betrayed the Muslim, stealing their land and took over the nation through force and ?law?.-- 60.52.25.23 13:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Both of you should get down from your soapboxes. // Liftarn
Okay then sorry about, please be noted that the nation of palestine are nolonger their for somereason even I dont know. Can we change the article now? that is to exclude the muslim from anti-semitism? -- Towaru 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
fine, u only saying christian and islam being anti-semitism, how about jews themselve being anti-semitism, read here http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Believe-in-Allah/jewish_bible_or_quran_anti-semitic.htm , I believe we must make new article about jews being anti-semitism, and sorry, is zionism same as judeoism?-- Towaru 13:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Jews for Allah is not extremist, where the hell did you get that from? They simply advocate the turning of Jews to Islam because they argue Islam as being fulfilling of Jewish... prophecy stuff. If that makes any sense. But they are definately not extremist.
Even zionism has been described as a form of antsemitism as it says that Jews are incapable of becoming assimilated into the countries they live in. // Liftarn
This talk about JINOs reminds me of self-hating black people. Ive never seen any in real life, but you get a few in fictional media created by black people as antagonists (eg Boondocks). I think this would be a good way to explain jews who are racist to jews.
I see your point about the Bible (in this instance, the Book of Esther) not being a reliable historical source. But then, I don't understand why it's okay to refer to the Book of Maccabees in the following paragraph. Mt1999 03:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)mt1999
Good catch. Feel free to remove it. I invite those who want to include it to provide a source. Grace Note 03:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I am going to give just one example of the pervasive OR and bias in this article.
"Though the general definition of antisemitism is hostility or prejudice towards Jews, a number of authorities have developed more formal definitions. Holocaust scholar and City University of New York professor Helen Fein's definition has been particularly influential".
Influential on whom? Who says so? Why, if someone says so, are we not citing their saying so? Why is her "definition" characterised as "particularly" influential? By what standard? Do you have any sources for her influence at all? People who have cited it and are themselves expert in the area of antisemitism (with recognised credentials, not just some guy who works for a think tank) would be the kind of thing we are thinking of here.
Do you have a source for her being an expert on the Holocaust? The biographies I find suggest she is a sociologist who specialises in genocides generally. I don't doubt she has written about the Holocaust but I can't see that she is a "Holocaust scholar". This is a subtle distinction but important. Here we are discussing antisemitism, not the theory of genocide. The presentation of Fein here implies that she is an expert on antisemitism, but she seems rather to be an expert on how genocides occur. The two are not necessarily congruent.
Why do I think that this passage is instructive or introduces bias? Because Fein's definition of antisemitism insists that it is latent and persisting. The implication of this kind of understanding of antisemitism is that it exists as part of the fabric of a society without its knowing it. IOW, expert "witchfinders" can uncover and describe "antisemitism" that its perpetrators were not aware of. This is not an objective description of antisemitism but a political position. Grace Note 23:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It must be INCREDIBLY hard to maintain NPOV while editing this article. Good job. atomicthumbs 15:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Correction. It must be INCREDIBLY hard to maintain the PRETENSE of NPOV while editing this article. Good job? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.55.83.225 ( talk) 12:52, 4 April, 2007 (UTC)
Hello.
I would like to draw your attention to the discussion taking place at
Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II.
There is a guy called Todor Bozinov who, when challenged about the fate of Greek Jews in north-eastern Greece during the Axis/Bulgarian occupation of 1941-44, all he has got to say is: «the Jews in Greek Macedonia and Thrace were not Bulgarian citizens, and we couldn't avoid direct German orders when it's not even our citizens whose deportation was ordered. I don't think you can blame us for not saving your Jews» !
At another discussion (at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Parrisia ) again he shamelessly says that «we couldn't save your Jews because they were not Bulgarian citizens.»...
Any sane and knowledgable person knows that the administration of a territory, whether legal or illegal one, has got full responsibility for the security of the people living in that territory, regardless of their ethinicity, religion, citizenship etc. The Bulgarian occupation authority in northeastern Greece, established as a result of a Nazi-Bulgarian agreement (Bulgaria was a formal Axis partner) was therefore responsible for the fate of all inhabitants of that region. The end-result of the Bulgarian occupation was (a) 100.000 Greek Orthodox fleeing from the Bulgarian occupation zone to the Nazi and Italian occupation zones and (b) the whole of the Greek Jewish population of the area perishing in Nazi concentration camps.
He or she who doesn't understand this basic principle of international law (respecting peoples' lives and assuming responsibility about their security) is either ignorant or, worse, an anti-Semite and as such he or she ought to be expelled from Wikipedia.
Parrisia
07:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The following statement in the "Antisemitism in the 21st century" section seems out of place and vague at best and a distortion at worse: "Other commentators associate some of these problems with the constant linkage of Israel to "The Jews" or "The Jewish State." If nobody can find a reliable source for it, I will delete it in one week. -- GHcool 00:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I'd like to write an article on the myth of the 4,000 Jews who were allegedly told not to go to work at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001 that was started by an E-Mail from Al-Manar news service. Does anybody have an appropriate title for this article? ---- DanTD 16:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's what the article used to say, before it was shortended:
This claim made by Al-Manar, the television station of Hezbollah, has been repeated by a wide variety of other sources, such as Amiri Baraka. The original Al-Manar claim was:
"With the announcement of the attacks at the World Trade Center in New York, the international media, particularly the Israeli one, hurried to take advantage of the incident and started mourning 4,000 Israelis who work at the two towers. Then suddenly, no one ever mentioned anything about those Israelis and later it became clear that they remarkably did not show up in their jobs the day the incident took place. No one talked about any Israeli being killed or wounded in the attacks."
Al-Manar further claimed that "Arab diplomatic sources revealed to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper that those Israelis remained absent that day based on hints from the Israeli General Security apparatus, the Shabak". It is unclear whether al-Watan (a minor Jordanian newspaper with no website) made these claims or who (if anyone) the alleged "Arab diplomatic sources" were. No independent confirmation has been produced for this claim.
In some versions of the story circulated on the Internet, the title was changed to "4,000 Jewish Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack" from its original "4000 Israeli Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack", spawning a further rumor that not only Israeli but all Jewish employees stayed away. On September 12 an American Web site called "Information Times" published an article with the headline "4,000 Jews Did Not Go To Work At WTC On Sept. 11," which it credited to "AL-MANAR Television Special Investigative Report." According to Slate.com, "The '4,000 Jews' page is easily forwarded as e-mail, and this may explain the message's rapid dissemination." [20] The rumour was also published; according to the United States Department of State "Syria's government-owned Al Thawra newspaper may have been the first newspaper to make the "4,000 Jews" claim... its September 15th edition falsely claimed 'four thousand Jews were absent from their work on the day of the explosions.' " [21]
There were a total of 5 Israeli deaths in the attack (Alona Avraham, Leon Lebor, Shay Levinhar, Daniel Lewin, Haggai Sheffi), of which 3 were in the World Trade Center and 2 were on the planes. (4 are listed as American on most lists, presumably having dual citizenship.)
Early estimates of Israeli deaths, as of the total death toll and the death toll for other countries' citizens (e.g. India) proved substantially exaggerated. George W. Bush cited the figure of 130 in his speech on September 20th.
The number of Jewish victims was considerably higher, typically estimated at around 400; [22] [23] according to the United States Department of State
A total of 2,071 occupants of the World Trade Center died on September 11, among the 2,749 victims of the WTC attacks. According to an article in the October 11, 2001, Wall Street Journal, roughly 1,700 people had listed the religion of a person missing in the WTC attacks; approximately 10% were Jewish. A later article, in the September 5, 2002, Jewish Week, states, "based on the list of names, biographical information compiled by The New York Times, and information from records at the Medical Examiner's Office, there were at least 400 victims either confirmed or strongly believed to be Jewish." This would be approximately 15% of the total victims of the WTC attacks. A partial list of 390 Cantor Fitzgerald employees who died (out of 658 in the company) lists 49 Jewish memorial services, which is between 12% and 13%. This 10-15% estimate of Jewish fatalities tracks closely with the percentage of Jews living in the New York area. According to the 2002 American Jewish Year Book, 9% of the population of New York State, where 64% of the WTC victims lived, is Jewish. A 2002 study estimated that New York City's population was 12% Jewish. Forty-three percent of the WTC victims lived in New York City. Thus, the number of Jewish victims correlates very closely with the number of Jewish residents in New York. If 4,000 Jews had not reported for work on September 11, the number of Jewish victims would have been much lower than 10-15%. [24]
The figure "4,000" was probably taken by Al-Manar from a Jerusalem Post article of September 12 (p. 3) which said "The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem has so far received the names of 4,000 Israelis believed to have been in the areas of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon at the time of the attack." This number was obviously not (as Al-Manar claimed) restricted to employees; in fact, Tsviya Shimon, minister of administrative affairs for the Israeli consulate and mission in New York, said on September 14 "that there might have been up to 100 Israeli citizens working in the World Trade Center". [25]
Furthermore, many Orthodox Jews left for work later than usual that day due to Selichot (additional prayers recited around the time of Rosh Hashanah). [26]
I'm not sure creating an article is a good thing, though. Jayjg (talk) 00:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It's probably best presented in the context of the other 9/11 conspiracy theories. Maybe improve it in place, and see where it goes from there. Tom Harrison Talk 00:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I question the assertion of unanimous agreement on exclusion of non-Jewish semites, when the only voices cited seem to be British, Americans, and/or people of Jewish ethnicity. This seems to be an intrinsic cultural bias, then, in the way the word has arrived at its modern meaning. Do Arab scholars and/or non-Western peoples agree with this definition? If not, how can unanimity be claimed?
In particular, the use of the word 'antisemitic' to describe anti-Jew Arabs strikes me as an unfair manipulation of language, not merely because Arabs are semites themselves, but because this is an emotionally loaded use of Nazi terminology. In some cases, it is true, Muslim West Asians do come close to being Nazi sympathizers or apologetics. However, in many cases they don't; they may be non-racist bigots or merely politically opposed to Israeli policy, and they do not deserve to be painted with the same brush.
The validity of my point goes back to Nazi antisemitism, which was definitely based on race, *not* on religion, politics, or nationality. To sling about the word to describe non-racist bigots or political opponents, therefore, is a departure from its original meaning; and certainly, if one uses it to describe Arabs, there should be an overwhelming substantiation of purely racist intent.
The issue is complex and it is unfair to claim it has been settled once and for all merely on the basis of a partisan (primarily western and/or Jewish) selection of scholars and academics, when it affects many others.
What I would *like* to see is either (a) citation of agreement on this issue by non-Western and/or non-Jewish scholars *or* (b) toning down the insistence that the issue has been settled to unanimous agreement.
For the record, I should declare that I am neither Jewish nor Arab, nor Muslim for that matter, and I am certainly not a racist or bigot of any stripe. In short, I have no dog in this fight. Splitpeasoup 17:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
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There was a section under "antisemitism in islamic texts" and was about teh treatment of non-muslism within muslim states which had nothing to do with antisemitism, so i removed it.
Exactly. And on the broader outlook, calling stuff like this "antisemitism" cheapens the criticism of genuine antisemitism. -- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 11:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the confusion here arises because editors are assuming they are to interpret the content of the Qur'an. That can't be done in this article. It must be written up from recent scholarship interpreting what the Qur'an says. There is thus no point at all in falling out over whethe the Qur'an has bias against Muslims or not. All that needs to be done is to identify the important secondary sources that discuss the question, read them, and summarise fairly what they say. Itsmejudith 18:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, I love your new signature, Proabivouac. But you are mistaken. A green heart has more than one meaning. Hope, envy, love, -- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 09:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Beit Or, I will try to explain again. I don't doubt that you can find instances in the Islam where Jews were persecuted for being Jews. Targeted as Jews. With particular portrait of Jews as lazy, or greedy, or whatever. In these cases, we can call it antisemitism. But general exclusions of non-Muslims are NOT antisemitism. In the Christian world, there were several limitations for non-Christians. These were not antisemitic. There were specific limitations and persecution of Jews--these were antisemitic. One case (general exclusion) does not prevent the other (particular exclusion), but they are NOT the same thing. You may keep guessing my excuse motives to "single out Islam as an object of apologetics" (???) Or you may try to consider that maybe, just maybe, it is a good faith disagreement. Regarding scholarly sources, a brief search to JSTOR took me to Ben halpern, "What Is Antisemitism?" Modern Judaism, Vol. 1, No. 3. (Dec., 1981), pp. 251-262. [3] He wrote quite explicitly: "to note that antisemitism is "essencially" related to "the Jews" as its object suggest much more than a simple tautology, or its logically corolary, that antisemitism is a form of group prejudice." For Halpern, antisemitism is not only persecution of Jews, but the perception of "THE JEWS" as this collective being, different from others. Therefore, the name does not apply to general prejudices or persecutions, but to prejudices and persecutions that assume "THE JEWS" as a group with certain characteristics. It is not simply semantics. It is the concept itself that can be completely watered down if it applicable to anything in which Jews are ALSO involved, but without distinction from other groups.-- Ninarosa 10:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Why was the Psychology of Anti-semitism deleted? -- Thanatopsis2002 01:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC) thanatopsis2002
"Today, Denmark has one of the lowest rates of anti-semitism in Europe, at only 11%."
Oh really? How do you measure that? So 11% of all danish people are anti semitic? This is clearly either made up or from a rather dubious source, and should be removed forthwith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.47.164.89 ( talk) 14:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
Dude, don't be so hysterical. Ninarosa did not claim the report says that 11% of Danes are anti-semitic, only that there is a report on anti-Semitism in Denmark available in Danish. Which is true. Yes, it is also about anti-Muslims, but it is indeed about anti-Semitism too. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I would kindly request that you do not address me as 'dude', dude, and stick your rather ignorant references to being ”hysterial” where the sun don’t shine. Secondly, I suggest try reading the above again. Thirdly, the report is not about anti-Semitism in Denmark, as you claim - it contains references to (amongst many other things) anti-Semitism in Denmark. Orpingtonian 15:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
A recent very interesting study, widely syndicated, and to be published shortly in Kyklos, the Review for International Social Sciences, puts the rate of "bigotry" against Jews held by Danish citizens at only 2.5%. The countries with the most prevalence of bigotry against Jews appear to be Spain and Greece. It is notable that among five targets of bigotry studied (racial bigotry, anti-Muslim bigotry, anti-Jewish bigotry, anti-immigrant and anti-homosexual bigotry) anti-Jewish bigotry ranked fourth in prevalence while anti-Muslim bigotry ranked a close second in prevalence behind anti-homosexual attitudes. By the way, the report states that "the lowest proportion of bigoted persons was in Sweden (13 percent), Iceland (18 percent), Canada (22 percent), and Denmark (22 percent). Here is where you can read the report... [5]. BernardL 19:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Sefringle, I see you reverted the change of paragraphs I had done. Could you explain why? I don't want to revert it back before discussing it.
It seems to me that the other version was more logical: a) a general assertion about the dhimmis, b) followed by a paragraph discussing the status of Jews among dhimmis, c) the different oppinions regarding this status, and d) closing with a paragraph on historical conditions in which anti-Jews sentiments were identified. Nothing had been deleted. As it reads now, the general assertion about the dhimmis does not seem to relate to the rest of the article, and suggests that restrictions against "non-Muslims" are in fact anti-semitism.-- Ninarosa 20:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems that we are at an impasse because I disagree on both counts: because of the argument and because of the style. The original version is not fine. This paragraph...
Anti-Jewish sentiments usually flared up at times of the Muslim political or military weakness or when Muslims felt that some Jews had overstepped the boundary of humiliation prescribed to them by the Islamic law.[49] In Spain, ibn Hazm and Abu Ishaq focused their anti-Jewish writings on the latter allegation. This was also the chief motivation behind the massacres of Jews of Granada in 1066, when nearly 3,000 Jews were killed, and in Fez in 1033, when 6,000 Jews were killed. [50] There were further massacres in Fez in 1276 and 1465. [51]
is preceded by one about Dhimmis in general, and followed by another on the status of Jews as Dhimmis. As it is, it just does not belong there. Before getting to too many reverts, I would like to suggest still another version, keeping the paragraph, but edited, in a way that connects better the two "dhimmi" paragraphs.-- Ninarosa 04:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The section on Sweden is really poor. While it's terrible for the individual to be verbally attacked it is hardly interesting for an international audience to read about these minor incidents, especially when there have been much worse examples of antisemitism in Sweden. For instance, the attempt to burn down a jewish building in Malmö in 2003 and the existence of Radio Islam etc. Any Swedish speaking people around here that wish to comment on this? 212.105.37.165 09:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Iran, having vowed to wipe Israel off the map, appears to be fomenting anti-Semitic sentiment through its media. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250710,00.html
Crocoite 22:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC) (I'm striking-through the article summary and removing the hyperlink to FoxNews so I'm not accused of copyright infringement.)
Crocoite
22:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Is this article supposed to exist? [7] It looks like it's supposed to redirect, but isn't quite working? Maybe someone can fix it. Mackan79 04:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
N/p. Thanks, Mackan79 06:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I forget the name for this fallacy, but it uses two different meanings of the word to make dual assertions:
My question, of course, is not whether either point is valid, but rather Who makes the second point? (Casual conversation with acquaintances and co-workers is not source material.) -- Uncle Ed 17:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Mark Cohen is stating the view of majority of scholars regarding the issue we are writing about here. Why is it POV? It is a report. -- Aminz 10:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Dispute explanation: Mark Cohen Professor of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, in The Oxford Handbook of Jewish Studies states that:"most scholars concede that Arab anti-Semitism in the modern world arose relatively recently, in the nineteenth century, against the backdrop of conflicting Jewish and Arab nationalism, and was imported into the Arab world primarily by nationalistically minded Christian Arabs (and only subsequently was it "Islamized".
Cohen's research specialty is Jews in the Muslim world and is considered to be one of the leading scholars of the history of Jews in the Middle Ages under Islam.
The dispute is over inclusion of Cohen's quote attributed to him [12]. It was removed based on the arguments that "This is simply Cohen's belief that the majority of scholars support his view". Those users who want to include this argue that 1. the quote is explaining the view of majority of scholars on antisemitism in Muslim lands 2. the whole section on Islam is arranged and written with the aim of supporting the view of a minority of writers who believe Antisemitism has roots in the Qur'an and has been there from the beginning. -- Aminz 04:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. The view of the majority of scholars that Cohen is writing about for example matches with what Encyclopedia of Islam, a prestigous academic source on Islam, that writes:"Increased European commercial, missionary and imperialist activities within the Muslim world during the 19th and 20th centuries introduced anti-Semitic ideas and literature into the region. At first these prejudices only found a reception among Arabic-speaking Christian protégés of the Europeans in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt and were too new and too palpably foreign for any widespread acceptance among Muslims. However, with the ever-increasing conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine during the period of the British Mandate, the language and imagery of European anti-Semitism began to appear in political polemics both in the nationalist press and in books."-- Aminz 04:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
← Humus sapiens ну ?"Abd al-Mumin ... the leader of the Almohads after the death of Muhammad Ibn Tumart the Mahdi ... captured Tlemcen [in the Maghreb] and killed all those who were in it, including the Jews, except those who embraced Islam. ... [In Sijilmasa] One hundred and fifty persons were killed for clinging to their [Jewish] faith. ... One hundred thousand persons were killed in Fez on that occasion, and 120,000 in Marrakesh. The Jews in all [Maghreb] localities [conquered] ... groaned under the heavy yoke of the Almohads; many had been killed, many others converted; none were able to appear in public as Jews." [1]
</reset> Humus sapiens, My point is that we have a quote in which Cohen is giving the view of majority of scholars. We can continue this discussion but in Wikipedia, we are concerned with verifiability and not truth. -- Aminz 11:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not a regular editor here, and not well-aquainted with the literature. It looks like the two views are that antisemitism is 1) built into Islam; and 2) a modern artefact.
The section Antisemitism and the Muslim world says the main article is Islam and antisemitism, and to see also Arabs and antisemitism. Cohen's view is presented near the top in both of those. If this section is to summarize those more detailed pages, then it seems to me that Cohen's view should be similarly presented here. That said, the section is already quite long. Repetition should be avoided, summary style is good, etc. Might we put at the beginning of the section two succinct paragraphs summarizing the two views, and then go on to the chronological account? To keep the length down, we might shorten the paragraph of citations to the Qur'an, shorten the paragraph on dhimmis, and condense all the 'Cohen says/Goitein argues' into the first two paragraphs, moving the rest of it to Islam and antisemitism and/or Arabs and antisemitism. Tom Harrison Talk 14:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Another Suggestion:
I suggest this:
In this way we are acknowledging existence of discrimination and persecutions. -- Aminz 23:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Re RfC: The sentence should read that "most scholars concede etc." This is a scholar writing a dictionary. Maybe it's wrong, but anything could be wrong. HS, if you don't like this wording, then go out and find a good reference from a scholar who says that anti-Semitism didn't arise recently. HS, when I see an editor use insult, I am inclined to give the other side a second look. Jonathan Tweet 15:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC) Aminz, I can see why you like Cohen, but he doesn't deserve to be the sole reference in the section summary. The summary of the whole section should take into account history, context, etc. Cohen's comments are about the 19th century and belong in that subsection. I'm on your side about including Cohen, but don't overdo it. Jonathan Tweet 20:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I support the Cohen quote. Why will some users on this page not allow a reliable source? Bless sins 00:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to be long, also it seems to me to have some overly long sections duplicating content in other articles. It would be much punchier and better with a work through. Personally, I also think that an attempt to prove a point about something as exegetically complex as the New Testament by citing isolated verses isn't very clever (try reading them as you read the article: as isolated verses they are incredibly hard to follow, and it uses the New Testament like a cruddy tele-evangelist): it would be much more convincing to quote a couple of top tier Biblical scholars on the issue, wouldn't it?
On this other discussion, I think it is too much to ask for there to be a consistent definition of anti-S across the vast range of people who use the term so trying to tie down the article content based on definition is very difficult. Again, acknowledging the variation has to be a good start. -- BozMo talk 09:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I know that the dictionary tends to define "Antisemitism" as being "Anti-Jewish" but in a real life example, I think this is an error. Some years ago when I was on the student council of my university, a group of Palestinians came to the council in order to get funding for an event that they wanted to put on. Being the hardcore pro-Israel guy that I am and knowing full well that these people would in almost complete likelyhood going to use the event to spew anti-Jewish venom, I stated that the council should not fund any event that was antisemitic.
Well, it was at that point that the leader of the Palestinian group started screaming that they were not antisemitic because as Arabs, they are Semites themselves. Of course, this is true so I had to re-state and make the argument that the council should not support "anti-Jewish" events.
Sadly, since the student council was overwhelmingly left-wing, I was out-vote and the funding for the Palestinians went through.
But most importantly, I don't understand why the dictionary and people in general use the word "antisemitic" in relation to Jewish people even though it would appropriately be referring to Arabs as well. It's like saying that someone is anti-European and thinking that means it only refers to Albanians. Jewish people are a small part of the Semitic world yet this phrase is thought of as only applying to Jews. I think that trying to take the lead and correct this syntactical error would be a worthy undertaking for Wikipedia. Jtpaladin 21:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The article makes a number of Biblical and historical mistakes that would require a considerable effort to correct.
The attempt to understand NT scripture is poorly accomplished by whoever authored the information.
Also, the historical reasoning for persecution of Jewish people in the early days of Christianity up to the Middle Ages is either ommitted, left incomplete, or simply in conflict with historical accounts that can be easily obtained from the online source, the Jewish Encyclopedia.
I'll take it slow and try and make some corrections and add historical data. Jtpaladin 21:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Any reason why there is no mention of Shakespeare/ Merchant of Venice in this article? -- BozMo talk 12:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The following section was removed without any valid reason.
Please discuss things on the talk page. It may othoerwise be seen as an act of vandalism. // Liftarn
Liftarn, this is what, the 4th different way you've tried to insert this POV? First it was at List of political epithets, which was AfDd, then it was Antisemite (epithet) which was speedy deleted and upheld on Deletion Review, then it was Category:Political epithets, which was CfDd. This is quite disruptive, even for you. Please stop inserting this nonsense. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 16:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
C)
Some has argued that the charge of antisemitism is being misused as a way to silence critisism of Israel.<ref>“Partisans of Israel often make false accusations of anti-Semitism to silence Israel’s critics. The ‘antisemite!’ libel is harmful not only because it censors debate about Israel’s racism and human rights abuses but because it trivializes the ugly history of Jew-hatred.” (Handleman, Scott, "Trivializing Jew-Hatred," in ''The Politics of Anti-Semitism'', ed. [[Alexander Cockburn]]. AK Press, 2003, p. 13.)</ref><ref>“Apologists for Israel’s repression of Palestinians toss the word “anti-Semite” at any critic of what Zionism has meant in practice for Palestinians on the receiving end.” ([[Alexander Cockburn|Cockburn, Alexander]] and St. Clair, Jeffrey, preface to ''The Politics of Anti-Semitism'', ed. Alexander Cockburn. AK Press, 2003, p.vii.) </ref> <ref>"More importantly, Finkelstein exposes the nastiness of smearing the label of anti-Semitism on Israel's critics. Mostly, he tells us what we already know." (Paul, Ari. [http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/reviews/article.2005-10-11.0538333315 "Norman Finkelstein's ''Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Antisemitism and the Abuse of History''"]. ''Tikkun'', October 11, 2005.)</ref> <ref>"Instead of seriously engaging with the issues raised (e.g. to what extent are Israel's current policies similar to those of apartehid and to what extent are they not?), the Jewish establishment and media responds by attacking the people who raise these or any other critiques--shifting the discourse to the legitimacy of the messenger and thus avoiding the substance of the criticisms. Knowing this, many people become fearful that they too will be labeled "anti-Semitic" if they question the wisdom of Israeli policies or if they seek to organize politically to challenge those policies." ([[Rabbi Michael Lerner]]. [http://baltimorechronicle.com/2007/020207LERNER.shtml "There's no New Anti-Semitism"]. [[Baltimore Sun]], February 7, 2007.)</ref><ref>“The lack of debate is, of course, a measure of the power of the Israel lobby to suppress discussion of its role, and the fear the lobby stirs among American writers, especially non-Jewish liberals who cannot afford to be tarred as anti-Semites, a death sentence in the profession." ([[Adam Shatz|Shatz, Adam]]. [http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/adam_shatz/2006/03/post_9.html "Dialogue of the Deaf"]. ''The Guardian'', March 24, 2006.)</ref> <ref>"'I’ve been hurt — and so has my family — by some of the reaction,' Carter said. 'It’s the first time in my life I’ve ever been called a liar. A bigot. An anti-Semite. A coward. A plagiarist. He paused after each epithet. 'This has hurt,' he said." (Cohler-Esses, Larry. [http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13589 "Carter Faces, and Disarms, Jewish Crowd"]. The Jewish Week, January 26 2007.)</ref><ref>“The Great Silencer: No discussion of how the Lobby operates would be complete without examining one of its most important weapons: the charge of anti-Semitism. Anyone who criticizes Israeli actions or says that pro-Israel groups have significant influence over U.S. Middle East policy – an influence that AIPAC celebrates – stands a good chance of getting labeled an anti-Semite.” ([[John Mearsheimer|Mearsheimer, John]] and [[Stephen Walt|Walt, Stephen]]. [http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011 "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"]. KSG Faculty Research Working Paper Series, Harvard University, March 2006.)</ref> After [[Jimmy Carter]] published his book ''[[Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid]]'' he was labelled an antisemite.<ref>“The charge has been leveled at Jimmy Carter over his recent book, "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid." I, too, didn't like the book...Still, Carter's overall point about Israeli occupation of the West Bank is apt, and calling him all sorts of names does not change that...It's astonishing that in the 60 years since the Nazi extermination camps were liberated, anti-Semitism has revived and thrived. Still, it hardly makes sense to fight it by promiscuously throwing around the word "anti-Semite" so that it loses its punch or to flay Jewish critics of Israel." ([[Richard Cohen|Cohen, Richard]]. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/05/AR2007020501249.html "Cheapening the Fight Against Hatred"]. Washington Post, February 6, 2007.)</ref><ref>[http://imeu.net/news/article004053.shtml Philadelphia Inquirer: Truth at Last]</ref>
I must have missed the wiki policy that says to remove entire sourced sections when it is worded confusingly. But I'll go along with it. Can someone explain to me how to fix this so it is no longer worded confusiningly, and then I'll proceed to include it in the article once more.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 10:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
It's too much? It's only one sentence! -- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 18:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Look, I have no connection whatsoever with this. All I did was see a big red -4,472 on my watchlist, and I reverted it because it seemed like sourced info was being removed. And then I see complaints of it not being written properly. So I say ok, I'll put it on the talk page. And here it is. Now, I'm still waiting for suggestions to improve it and put it back in the article.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 10:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Reset indent. It's not a "point of view" that some people claim accusations of antisemitism are used to silence debate. There is no question that some people make that claim. What is controversial is whether the claim has any merit in terms of the effects or the motivation. The issue is how in the world it's relevant to an article about antisemitism. It's two sentences with endless footnoting at this point, but the argument has so much currency now that it certainly justifies its own article. -- Leifern 16:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's try to get this back on track. What are the specific complaints about the wording of the section in question? // Liftarn
HS has a point that major pogroms deserve prominent mention, as does the origin of 19th century Muslim antisemitism. Jonathan Tweet 20:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Aminz, don't be ridiculous. A pogrom against Jews is antisemitism, no strings attached.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 22:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Aminz, "it is okay to mention major pogroms." Agreed. Currently, the text refers to pogroms but doesn't label them antisemitic. I don't think we have to. Jonathan Tweet 09:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The relationships between the Jews and the Arabs throughout history have been the subject of numerous studies over many centuries. However, as long as the continuous Arab-Israeli conflict has not found a solution, historians will search through the past in order to find new evidence to prove the antiquity of the tension between the two communities and to illuminate its causes. The vicissitudes which have marked the lives of the Jews who lived under Arab rule or side-by-side with Muslims add to the complexity of the issue, and a great many of the assertions about Arab-Jewish relations made by scholars and amateurs alike are sheer speculation. This is particularly true of writers who strongly identify with either camp and have become emotionally involved in the subject. Consequently, the views they usually hold are often unbalanced, if not biased.
The present work, which comprises fifteen articles written in Hebrew by some eminent Orientalists, covers a kaleidoscope of topics and views whose common denominator is to portray the Muslims' reactions to Jews from the advent of Islam to the present time. However, after reading this interesting collection one can reach another surprising conclusion: in spite of the fact that most of the contributors are Jewish or Israeli Orientalists they have nevertheless provided us with well-balanced and usually well-argued accounts. This is no doubt due to the efforts and experience of the editor, Professor Hava Lazarus-Yafeh, one of the leading Israeli Orientalists, who has recently died.
In her introduction to the book the editor emphasizes two major points: (1) the conflict between the two communities has never been immanent and (2) in spite of the existence of discriminatory laws against Jews and Christians, such as 'the Pact of 'Umar', the prohibition against learning Arabic and reading the Qur'an, or laws compelling Jews to dress in distinguishing clothes, they have rarely been applied. Hence, the status of the Jews as ahl al-dhimmah normally enabled them to lead safe and peaceful lives under Islam, only occasionally disrupted during the times of certain rulers or their vizirs, or when conditions in general began to deteriorate within the Muslim empire.
In his important contribution entitled 'Islam and the Jews: Myth, Counter-Myth, History', Mark R. Cohen stresses the polarity of views among scholars in respect of the attitude of the Muslims towards the Jews. The author rejects the myth about inter-religious Utopia and the counter-myth which highlights the Jewish tragedy across history (named by S. Baron the 'lachrymose conception'). To prove this thesis about the coexistence between Jews and Arabs — as he prefers to see it — he analyses very skilfully some of the available sources and draws comparisons with Europe's often negative, if not disastrous, attitude towards the Jews.
Aminz, what on earth does your lengthy quote havfe to di with HS's point that "major pogroms deserve prominent mention?" Slrubenstein | Talk 10:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
So is www.zionism-israel.com a reliable source? If not would you like to have a look at the 113 other places on Wikipedia where it is cited? Or are there different levels of reliability on the same site? [18] -- BozMo talk 20:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I figured this would get deleted but was anticipating an explanation. For some, questioning Israel's right to exist is tantamount to antisemitism<ref>[http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000045.html Anti-Zionism, criticism of Israel and Anti-Semitism revisited], on a pro-Israel web site.</ref>. Comments? Jonathan Tweet 03:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Yep, it's a notable view. Look at the Anti-Zionism page and you'll see that it gets some real play. A quick summary here is warranted. Also, a summary here prevents an eager but ignorant editor from rushing in with a half-baked reference and adding the issue to the page (like I did). Jonathan Tweet 13:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Is throwing a rock at an Israeli tank antisemtic or foolish? 159.105.80.141 13:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
What makes you think that throwing a rock at an Israeli tank would be either "antisemtic" or foolish? Bus stop 15:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thats doesnt make any sense, Islam treat all human being same, that included jews, I dont see how Islam being anti-semites to the jews, its not Islam thats anti-semites, its just because jews betrayed the Muslim, for example in State of Palestine. At first they(the jews) were welcome to palastine, Muslim arent so care about, but then the jews betrayed the Muslim, stealing their land and took over the nation through force and ?law?.-- 60.52.25.23 13:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Both of you should get down from your soapboxes. // Liftarn
Okay then sorry about, please be noted that the nation of palestine are nolonger their for somereason even I dont know. Can we change the article now? that is to exclude the muslim from anti-semitism? -- Towaru 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
fine, u only saying christian and islam being anti-semitism, how about jews themselve being anti-semitism, read here http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Believe-in-Allah/jewish_bible_or_quran_anti-semitic.htm , I believe we must make new article about jews being anti-semitism, and sorry, is zionism same as judeoism?-- Towaru 13:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Jews for Allah is not extremist, where the hell did you get that from? They simply advocate the turning of Jews to Islam because they argue Islam as being fulfilling of Jewish... prophecy stuff. If that makes any sense. But they are definately not extremist.
Even zionism has been described as a form of antsemitism as it says that Jews are incapable of becoming assimilated into the countries they live in. // Liftarn
This talk about JINOs reminds me of self-hating black people. Ive never seen any in real life, but you get a few in fictional media created by black people as antagonists (eg Boondocks). I think this would be a good way to explain jews who are racist to jews.
I see your point about the Bible (in this instance, the Book of Esther) not being a reliable historical source. But then, I don't understand why it's okay to refer to the Book of Maccabees in the following paragraph. Mt1999 03:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)mt1999
Good catch. Feel free to remove it. I invite those who want to include it to provide a source. Grace Note 03:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I am going to give just one example of the pervasive OR and bias in this article.
"Though the general definition of antisemitism is hostility or prejudice towards Jews, a number of authorities have developed more formal definitions. Holocaust scholar and City University of New York professor Helen Fein's definition has been particularly influential".
Influential on whom? Who says so? Why, if someone says so, are we not citing their saying so? Why is her "definition" characterised as "particularly" influential? By what standard? Do you have any sources for her influence at all? People who have cited it and are themselves expert in the area of antisemitism (with recognised credentials, not just some guy who works for a think tank) would be the kind of thing we are thinking of here.
Do you have a source for her being an expert on the Holocaust? The biographies I find suggest she is a sociologist who specialises in genocides generally. I don't doubt she has written about the Holocaust but I can't see that she is a "Holocaust scholar". This is a subtle distinction but important. Here we are discussing antisemitism, not the theory of genocide. The presentation of Fein here implies that she is an expert on antisemitism, but she seems rather to be an expert on how genocides occur. The two are not necessarily congruent.
Why do I think that this passage is instructive or introduces bias? Because Fein's definition of antisemitism insists that it is latent and persisting. The implication of this kind of understanding of antisemitism is that it exists as part of the fabric of a society without its knowing it. IOW, expert "witchfinders" can uncover and describe "antisemitism" that its perpetrators were not aware of. This is not an objective description of antisemitism but a political position. Grace Note 23:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It must be INCREDIBLY hard to maintain NPOV while editing this article. Good job. atomicthumbs 15:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Correction. It must be INCREDIBLY hard to maintain the PRETENSE of NPOV while editing this article. Good job? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.55.83.225 ( talk) 12:52, 4 April, 2007 (UTC)
Hello.
I would like to draw your attention to the discussion taking place at
Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II.
There is a guy called Todor Bozinov who, when challenged about the fate of Greek Jews in north-eastern Greece during the Axis/Bulgarian occupation of 1941-44, all he has got to say is: «the Jews in Greek Macedonia and Thrace were not Bulgarian citizens, and we couldn't avoid direct German orders when it's not even our citizens whose deportation was ordered. I don't think you can blame us for not saving your Jews» !
At another discussion (at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Parrisia ) again he shamelessly says that «we couldn't save your Jews because they were not Bulgarian citizens.»...
Any sane and knowledgable person knows that the administration of a territory, whether legal or illegal one, has got full responsibility for the security of the people living in that territory, regardless of their ethinicity, religion, citizenship etc. The Bulgarian occupation authority in northeastern Greece, established as a result of a Nazi-Bulgarian agreement (Bulgaria was a formal Axis partner) was therefore responsible for the fate of all inhabitants of that region. The end-result of the Bulgarian occupation was (a) 100.000 Greek Orthodox fleeing from the Bulgarian occupation zone to the Nazi and Italian occupation zones and (b) the whole of the Greek Jewish population of the area perishing in Nazi concentration camps.
He or she who doesn't understand this basic principle of international law (respecting peoples' lives and assuming responsibility about their security) is either ignorant or, worse, an anti-Semite and as such he or she ought to be expelled from Wikipedia.
Parrisia
07:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The following statement in the "Antisemitism in the 21st century" section seems out of place and vague at best and a distortion at worse: "Other commentators associate some of these problems with the constant linkage of Israel to "The Jews" or "The Jewish State." If nobody can find a reliable source for it, I will delete it in one week. -- GHcool 00:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I'd like to write an article on the myth of the 4,000 Jews who were allegedly told not to go to work at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001 that was started by an E-Mail from Al-Manar news service. Does anybody have an appropriate title for this article? ---- DanTD 16:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's what the article used to say, before it was shortended:
This claim made by Al-Manar, the television station of Hezbollah, has been repeated by a wide variety of other sources, such as Amiri Baraka. The original Al-Manar claim was:
"With the announcement of the attacks at the World Trade Center in New York, the international media, particularly the Israeli one, hurried to take advantage of the incident and started mourning 4,000 Israelis who work at the two towers. Then suddenly, no one ever mentioned anything about those Israelis and later it became clear that they remarkably did not show up in their jobs the day the incident took place. No one talked about any Israeli being killed or wounded in the attacks."
Al-Manar further claimed that "Arab diplomatic sources revealed to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper that those Israelis remained absent that day based on hints from the Israeli General Security apparatus, the Shabak". It is unclear whether al-Watan (a minor Jordanian newspaper with no website) made these claims or who (if anyone) the alleged "Arab diplomatic sources" were. No independent confirmation has been produced for this claim.
In some versions of the story circulated on the Internet, the title was changed to "4,000 Jewish Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack" from its original "4000 Israeli Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack", spawning a further rumor that not only Israeli but all Jewish employees stayed away. On September 12 an American Web site called "Information Times" published an article with the headline "4,000 Jews Did Not Go To Work At WTC On Sept. 11," which it credited to "AL-MANAR Television Special Investigative Report." According to Slate.com, "The '4,000 Jews' page is easily forwarded as e-mail, and this may explain the message's rapid dissemination." [20] The rumour was also published; according to the United States Department of State "Syria's government-owned Al Thawra newspaper may have been the first newspaper to make the "4,000 Jews" claim... its September 15th edition falsely claimed 'four thousand Jews were absent from their work on the day of the explosions.' " [21]
There were a total of 5 Israeli deaths in the attack (Alona Avraham, Leon Lebor, Shay Levinhar, Daniel Lewin, Haggai Sheffi), of which 3 were in the World Trade Center and 2 were on the planes. (4 are listed as American on most lists, presumably having dual citizenship.)
Early estimates of Israeli deaths, as of the total death toll and the death toll for other countries' citizens (e.g. India) proved substantially exaggerated. George W. Bush cited the figure of 130 in his speech on September 20th.
The number of Jewish victims was considerably higher, typically estimated at around 400; [22] [23] according to the United States Department of State
A total of 2,071 occupants of the World Trade Center died on September 11, among the 2,749 victims of the WTC attacks. According to an article in the October 11, 2001, Wall Street Journal, roughly 1,700 people had listed the religion of a person missing in the WTC attacks; approximately 10% were Jewish. A later article, in the September 5, 2002, Jewish Week, states, "based on the list of names, biographical information compiled by The New York Times, and information from records at the Medical Examiner's Office, there were at least 400 victims either confirmed or strongly believed to be Jewish." This would be approximately 15% of the total victims of the WTC attacks. A partial list of 390 Cantor Fitzgerald employees who died (out of 658 in the company) lists 49 Jewish memorial services, which is between 12% and 13%. This 10-15% estimate of Jewish fatalities tracks closely with the percentage of Jews living in the New York area. According to the 2002 American Jewish Year Book, 9% of the population of New York State, where 64% of the WTC victims lived, is Jewish. A 2002 study estimated that New York City's population was 12% Jewish. Forty-three percent of the WTC victims lived in New York City. Thus, the number of Jewish victims correlates very closely with the number of Jewish residents in New York. If 4,000 Jews had not reported for work on September 11, the number of Jewish victims would have been much lower than 10-15%. [24]
The figure "4,000" was probably taken by Al-Manar from a Jerusalem Post article of September 12 (p. 3) which said "The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem has so far received the names of 4,000 Israelis believed to have been in the areas of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon at the time of the attack." This number was obviously not (as Al-Manar claimed) restricted to employees; in fact, Tsviya Shimon, minister of administrative affairs for the Israeli consulate and mission in New York, said on September 14 "that there might have been up to 100 Israeli citizens working in the World Trade Center". [25]
Furthermore, many Orthodox Jews left for work later than usual that day due to Selichot (additional prayers recited around the time of Rosh Hashanah). [26]
I'm not sure creating an article is a good thing, though. Jayjg (talk) 00:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It's probably best presented in the context of the other 9/11 conspiracy theories. Maybe improve it in place, and see where it goes from there. Tom Harrison Talk 00:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I question the assertion of unanimous agreement on exclusion of non-Jewish semites, when the only voices cited seem to be British, Americans, and/or people of Jewish ethnicity. This seems to be an intrinsic cultural bias, then, in the way the word has arrived at its modern meaning. Do Arab scholars and/or non-Western peoples agree with this definition? If not, how can unanimity be claimed?
In particular, the use of the word 'antisemitic' to describe anti-Jew Arabs strikes me as an unfair manipulation of language, not merely because Arabs are semites themselves, but because this is an emotionally loaded use of Nazi terminology. In some cases, it is true, Muslim West Asians do come close to being Nazi sympathizers or apologetics. However, in many cases they don't; they may be non-racist bigots or merely politically opposed to Israeli policy, and they do not deserve to be painted with the same brush.
The validity of my point goes back to Nazi antisemitism, which was definitely based on race, *not* on religion, politics, or nationality. To sling about the word to describe non-racist bigots or political opponents, therefore, is a departure from its original meaning; and certainly, if one uses it to describe Arabs, there should be an overwhelming substantiation of purely racist intent.
The issue is complex and it is unfair to claim it has been settled once and for all merely on the basis of a partisan (primarily western and/or Jewish) selection of scholars and academics, when it affects many others.
What I would *like* to see is either (a) citation of agreement on this issue by non-Western and/or non-Jewish scholars *or* (b) toning down the insistence that the issue has been settled to unanimous agreement.
For the record, I should declare that I am neither Jewish nor Arab, nor Muslim for that matter, and I am certainly not a racist or bigot of any stripe. In short, I have no dog in this fight. Splitpeasoup 17:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)