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honestly, the article about Poland and antisemitism is almost utopian. Despite the theoretical rights provided for the Jews, modern Poland - especially with the newly elected government and (as mentioned before) radio Maryja - is highly antisemitic. The ironic side of this is that the people who are openly criticising Jews and forming conspiracy theories are also the ones that deny the existence of any antisemitic connotations in Poland. At the term "Polish concentration camps" the Polish antisemitic masses just go crazy and riot over how it is untrue - or even how Jews make such stuff up.
Thus, I dare to say that the article is too idyllic part and doesn't correspond to reality. Of course, thousands of Polish antisemites are going to argue against any antisemetism taking place!
- 82.139.47.117 15:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja I have expanded it with issues of antisemitism (this is the largest and strongest Polish racist nationalwide radio station), but someone is always erasing everything I have added or reverted and his explanations are not really helpful- he tends to say that I am biased when writing about antisemitism. I am new to wikipedia and cannot do much about it. Please help. Moa anbessa 19:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Isn't Semitism an antisemetic concept? So surely the use of the hyphenated anti-semitic assumes that there is a semitic, so shouldn't we use the spelling 'antisemitic'?
It begins:
"The Jews in Germany were subject to many persecutions as well as brief times of tolerance. By the early 20th century, the Jews of Germany were the most integrated in Europe..."
The first sentence makes it sound as if anti-Jewish persecution in Germany has been the historical norm, punctuated only by short-lived (and temporary) respites. Yet, if the Jews of Germany were the most integrated in Europe, as the following sentence asserts, presumably that would have taken a considerable amount of time (a people cannot become well-integrated in a very short period of time).
Perhaps the first sentence should be reworded, along the lines of: "Jews in Germany have been subject to numerous persecutions as well as extended periods of tolerance."--
Critic9328
04:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Considering the extent to which the Nazis were anti-Christian? Are there citations for these statements?
-- Critic9328 04:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
From ReligiousTolerance.org: "Hitler re-used the blood-libel myth as justification for the Holocaust. The Nazi periodical, Der Stürmer, often published special issues devoted to allegations of ritual murder by Jews. Hitler had asked that a propaganda film be made of the 1840 Damascus case. World War II ended before it could be made." But I agree that more sources are needed here. -- Goodoldpolonius2 04:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Most anti-Semitism is not the result of actual religious criticism but bizarre stawmen, blood libels and other mayhem. Clearly it is some internalised fear projected on Jews. No more. JFW | T@lk 23:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
My sense is this recent addition very much dilutes and counters the meaning of the article overall: Jews are first portrayed as an oppressed people in Egypt. Subsequently, the Book of Esther tells about Haman, who seeks to destroy the Jews. The Books of the Maccabees recount the attempt to impose Greek religious ideas upon Jews. In 'Against Flaccus', Philo of Alexandria writes of an attack on Jews in the city of Alexandria about 38 CE. This last event is perhaps the most clearly religious in character.
Inorder to address POV, the first would require biblical references showing intolerance against non-Jewish groups. The second would require explaining that the Maccabees were attacking mostly Jews. The third would require a long explanation of commericial and cultural competition with violence and hate speech by more than one side. DaveHM 20:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
It says under a picture of a an Arabic book cover: 2005 Syrian edition of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion authorized by the Syrian Ministry of Information was featured at the Cairo International Book Fair
There are two reasons I'm against this: 1- It contains implicit criticism of the Syrian government (authorized by the Syrian MOI...). Wikipedia shouldn't pick and choose which details about a certain picture to include in the caption, especially if they're biased. 2- The title of the book does NOT say it is the 'Syrian edition of The PEZ'. The exact translation is: 'Lights on the the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Complete Texts). An Historical and Contemporary Investigative Study.' by Raja Abdulhamid Orabi. Published by the Syrian publisher 'Dar al-Awael'. -- Fjmustak 00:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
"Wikipedia shouldn't pick and choose which details about a certain picture to include in the caption, especially if they're biased." -- Who or what is meant to be biased here, because the details, insofar as they are facts cannot be biased one way or the other. Including select details while excluding others could be considered editing bias, but is there a serious case for this accusation?
I think the article needs to have more discussion about the different root-causes that have been proposed for anti-semitism. Has prejudice against the Jews for most of their history been more than that against other groups of people who have lived as religious and/or ethnic minorities? If so, then why?...
The AISH link [1] at the end of the article seems to do a fairly good job of debunking most of the common explainations (showing that they're either just symptoms or excuses, but its conclusion [2] is probably not acceptable to most accademics, or pretty much anyone who's not a pretty hard-core religious and nationalist Jew.
So then if we eliminate the AISH theory that people hate Jews because they're morally superior, and we eliminate the anti-semitic theory that they're sinister and evil, then what are we left with? I think this article should try and go into some depth and explore the different views on this issue.
Ruby, you're asking the wrong question in a Jewish dominated media world. The causes are obvious (Money, power, etc.), but they will NEVER be discussed in the open. Look at Germany in the 1920's: In the great depression Jewish banks and lawyers took many people's houses, farms and businesses. But if you start discussing this aspect of antisemitism or the holocaust you are automatically seen as antisemitic. And I bet it won't be long before this paragraph is deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.27.231.129 ( talk • contribs) .
Separation and Its Discontents: Toward an Evolutionary Theory of Anti-Semitism should be mentioned Jim Bowery 06:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Please see Category:Antisemitism (People) [ [3]] and vote here[ [4]]. Doright 03:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
An apparent newbie is getting close to the WP:3RR vio in an attempt to remove a reference substantiating the anti-semitic (and not only anti-semitic) activities of the late I. M. Vinogradov, refusing to talk via the talk page. I'm going off to sleep, and ask to watchlist the article, and help to polish the edit conflict section to as encyclopaedic and neutral version as possible. TIA, -- BACbKA 23:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I STILL don't understand, after searching the web for numerous times, how do they even justify their hatred? Please, someone, tell me... it doesn't even read where "anti-semitism" started from -- 84.249.252.211 13:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
For more examples of Anti-Semitism, follow the repeated attemps of some Wikipedians to re-introduce the racist use of the word "Aryan" into Wikipedia. Follow the discussions here and see examples on the following articles: Persian people, Tajik people, Iranian peoples, Aryan, and Indo-Iranians. Your help would be appreciated. Aucaman Talk 03:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
In refrence to this passage, below, I question the accuracy of connecting the notions of a Zionist conspiracy using it to support anti-Semitism with left wing politics. The left wing is anti-zionist, sure, but they don't use such a possition to conflate it to support anti-Semitism, which the left has always been strongly opposed to. I havn't changed anything yet as I'd like to see what others say, if anyone defends this characterization. Thanks. Giovanni33 18:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
"In a recent incarnation, extremist groups, such as Neo-Nazi parties and Islamist groups, claim that the aim of Zionism is global domination; they call this the Zionist conspiracy and use it to support anti-Semitism. This position is associated with fascism and Nazism, though increasingly, it is becoming a tendency within parts of the left as well.
The difference between the word "associated" and "emenates" is that the former merely purports some connection, not even a direct cause and effect, while the latter describes a formation directly from it, as in a emerges, germination, outgrowth, arises from, etc. That is conveyed by the word emerges. This is a POV, to be sure, but its far from a fact. The contrary POV is that the new anti-semitism is very much the old anti-semitism dressed in new clothing borrowed from the left. The clothes change but not the man. The possition the idenfities anti-zionism itself with anti-semitism is very controversial and I've provided sources which clearly state that. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_anti-Semitism#State_of_the_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_anti-Semitism#Criticism
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040202/klug
Many writers even questioned whether there really is any new anti-Semitism, and see it as a ploy to deflect or stifle legitimate criticism of Israel. Notably we have
Norman Finkelstein dedicates the first half of his book
Beyond Chutzpah
[5] to discussing claims of new anti-Semitism, arguing that they simply provide political cover to supporters of Israel. He advances similar arguments in
The Holocaust Industry and other books. The best known proponent of such views is the Jewish scholar
Noam Chomsky, who maintains that the Anti-Defamation League is viewing legitimate criticism of Israeli policies as anti-Semitism while turning a blind eye to blatant examples of traditional anti-Semitism. He documents this in some of his books, like "Necessary Illusions." Also, take a look at the Nation article by Klug I give above. Its eas to see that the view that anti-zionism is anti-semitism is a fringe view that is very controversial to say the least. That is why I supported the original text which diferenciated the two possitions describing this one as controverisal.
Giovanni33
02:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
wouldn't it be nice to get this article a section regarding causal, historical, ideological etc. efforts to actually explain the phenomenon 'antisemitism'? e.g. beginning with publications by moishe postone, professor of history at chicago university ( http://history.uchicago.edu/faculty/postone.html)?
I think this would also be a positive step, explaining the reasons why people mistakenly gain anti-semitic views would help stifle any "no smoke without fire" arguments used by anti-semites.
In case anyone is concerned, my mass of edits here today contain no content change. I converted references to the new notes format, added a few wiki links and commas. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 08:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
THere is a category called "Religious anti-Semitism", yet it only talks about Christianity. Shouldn't it be labelled "Anti-Semitism and the Christian world" in parallel to "Anti-Semitism and the Muslim world"; or the section to be labelled "Christian Anti-Semitism". 172.175.0.149 00:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I've changed the phrase "anthropological ideas" to "early and misconceived evolutionary ideas", as the modern science of anthropology completely disregards the idea of race as having any genetic distinction, and as being a cultural construct. This is the concensus among biological anthropologists, biologists, and geneticists in the scholarly world; racial characteristics are simply dominant genetic traits that are usually adaptations to climate among early groups of humans, both related and unrelated. Sociologists and racially-related studies (such as African-American studies) are the only ones who still uphold the more archaic ideas regarding race, regarding these groups as fundamentally different from each other biologically in a profound way, when genetics has shown the opposite to be true(see gene flow, especially in relation to early population groups). While I realise that the discrimination of Jewish people is based upon these mistaken notions of early biologists and proto-anthropologists (and I think I've communicated that in the revised sentence), I don't want to misrepresent to casual readers and those unfamiliar with scientific disciplines what these disciplines actually have concluded. (One of the first things you're taught in a biological anthropology class is: "forget what you think you know about race. It's all in your mind, and in history books. We created race, it doesn't exist.")
Oh, and please stop reverting my edits. Someone who has this article on their watchlist has already done this, and it's annoying when the edit is a clarification of a misunderstood earlier edit. --signed manually; I'm not signed in-- Kaelus 05:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I came here to post something in the talk page to realise that the anonymous user has added the Turkishdailynews articles regarding the Armenians. It should not be here for the following reasons: Turkishdailynews publish a series of anti-Armenian articles aimed at denying the Armenian genocide and making of the Armenians the beast of the world. It even actually has a section dedicated to 'Armenian issues' in which people like Sedat Laciner (a member of the Turkish government founded Institute of Armenian studies founded primarly to deny the Armenian genocide and heading the said Ankara-based International Strategic Research Organisation) who even wrote an entire book answering Egoyans move Ararat, continue the work of Turkaya Ataov in associating the Armenians with the NAZI.
Well, here was what I was going to post here, I already brought some of those references in the past and it was adviced to me to add them, but I haven't done so because I would have probably be accused again of anti-Turkism etc. So I bring it here and leave contributors of this article do whatever they think is best.
On December 15, 1941, the ship named “Struma” with 761 Jewish passengers escaping the NAZI invasion arrives in Istanbul and asks for the authorization to cross the Bosphorus. The ship had to wait until February 24, 1942, over a month of negotiations, Turkey denied access. The starving passagers were not fed, the Ship had to return and was torpedoed by a submarine.[1] One survivor. One day later, the then prime minister Refik Saydam, justifies his refusal to permit access by the following remarks: “Turkey cannot be the destination of undesirable refugees.” [2]
On November 11, 1942, Turkey impose the Capital Tax mainly directed against the Armenians, Greeks and Jews. The introduction of this tax was justified as follows: “Against those who profit from the hospitality offered by this country and become wealthy, while at the same time abrogate their responsibilities at this critical moment, the law will be applied with full force.” [3] Propositions against two three ethnic groups were made, for the Jews, it was said: “Stop all Jewish immigration, while provoking incidents within the country with the goal of creating a Jewish exodus, keep them away from all government activity, be it financial or economic.” [4]
In 2005, Hitlers book Mein Kampf has become a bestseller for months in Turkey [5] and according to a report published in three part antisemitism is raising in Turkish medias and that not only Mein Kampf has become a best seller but also The Protocols of Elders of Zion and The International Jew. [6]
[1] Wasserstein, Bernard: Their Own Fault; Attempts to shift the blame for the Holocaust. Times Literary Supplement (London) 1-7-94
[2] Hamit Bozarslan, Histoire de la Turquie contemporaine, Ed.de le Découverte, 2004, pp. 47-48
[3] Ridvan Akar, Askale Yolculari—Varlik Vergisi ve Çalisma Kamplari, Belge Uluslararasi Yayincilik, Istanbul, 1999 p. 5
[4] Ridvan Akar, Askale Yolculari—Varlik Vergisi ve Çalisma Kamplari, Belge Uluslararasi Yayincilik, Istanbul, 1999 pp. 186-187
[5] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4361733.stm
[6] http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP90005 http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP90405 http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP91605 Fad (ix) 22:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The latest barrage of edits by Robert Lindsay ( talk · contribs) need attention. E.g. this edit [6] is totally wrong. Yevsektsiya was not a "Jewish state". Please see Yevsektsiya and Jewish Autonomous Oblast. I don't have time to deal with it right now. ← Humus sapiens ну? 10:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Robert Lindsay 12:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC) (talk)
User:Paul diffenderfer has made this change. It looks like original research to me. Thoughts? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 21:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the whole thing for now; it really needs some sourcing. As it stood, it was pure original research. Jayjg (talk) 05:29, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, no more reverting. Consider the following versions:
vs.
To me, the problem with the first version is that it adopts the point of view of a person worried about antisemitism. While I am a person worried about antisemitism, I think Wikipedia should present statements about people's views rather than taking on those views as its own. Expressions such as "This rhetoric often crosses the line..." make it sound as if there exists a specific, determinable line between criticism of Israel and antisemitic views, and that Wikipedia knows where that line is. That is, this expression purports to lecture people on the meaning of their own views.
Likewise, in the second paragraph, using terms such as "the problem of anti-Semitism" and "worrying expressions" gives an air of moralistic lecturing to the article. The claim that antisemitism is a worrying problem is one which many people wholeheartedly agree with. However, Wikipedia does not hold this opinion (because Wikipedia doesn't hold opinions). When we are writing with Wikipedia's voice about matters social and political, we need to hew carefully to neutrality. This means that even when we personally despise a specific view (such as antisemitism) we do not call that view a "problem".
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an ethical or moral tract. It is worthy of note that when we describe ideologies and beliefs that almost everyone in the world regards as evil -- such as, say, Nazism -- we do not put the word "evil" into Wikipedia's mouth. (No, really. The article on Nazism does not say that Nazism is evil. It presents what Nazis believe and do, and allows the reader to conclude the obvious.)
When we present an opinion (such as "antisemitism is worrying" or "antisemitism is a problem"), we do it best when we attribute that view to specific sources. When we describe a fact (such as "antisemitic violence has risen in Europe") we describe it neutrally, rather than saying, e.g., "antisemitic violence has risen worryingly in Europe". -- FOo 18:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be an article titled Anti-Semitism in the Middle East or Anti-Semitism in the Muslim World? Within Islamic countries, anti-Semitism is not just specific to Arabs. There's a great deal of anti-Semitism in Iran and probably other places like Pakistan. Any ideas about how we should go about organizing these? Aucaman Talk 19:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that article should focus on anti-semitism caused by Islam or anti-Semitism done in the name of Islam. The problem is that a large part of anti-Semitism in the Muslim World actually comes from secular forces and has nothing to do with Islam per se. That's why I'm proposing making at least one of the two articles mentioned above. Aucaman Talk 00:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Can you give more details as to what exactly you have in mind? Also, how will you diffrentiatie between religous and secular forces?
Bless sins
10:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Please, remove the definite article. It must be Crimea, not the Crimea.
Righ? -- 85.29.75.16 13:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I think you're right, but since anti-Semitism exclusively targets Jews, not Arabs, it's not really relevant. Unmitigated Success 13:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century
Is "pseudo-scientific" a legitimate description of the now discredited 19th century racial theories? Or were they just wrong science (i.e., acceptable with the scientific context of the 19th C, but not now)? Perhaps we might just want to remove the word adjective (whether pseudo-scientific or scientific) altogether; we could clarify with, perhaps, "Now discredited theories concerning..." -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as "Semitism," and in German it's 'Antisemitismus.' "ANTI-SEMITISM spelled with a hyphen" does not "conform to scholarly usage." [ [7]], says Robert Michael, Prof. European History, UMASS Dartmouth. Regards, Doright 06:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Vote They are attempting to close the +cat AGAIN, please vote to KEEP.
This article portrays anti-semititism as evil. Personally, I agree, but its a bias, fair or not. Kashami 21:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't argue it as being biased, beyond holding the bias of upholding equality. You can make the same arguement for anything.
GA pending on these modifications (change the first 2):
No user tried to change the article in a 2 day time period which shows clearly no intention to bring the article neither to the GA status or the FA status. Sorry, the article failed the GA for the modifications above. Lincher 21:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Does The Merchant of Venice deserve a mention? Perhaps in a Renaissance sub-section (separate from Reformation)?-- Shtove 19:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The following quotation from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was recently posted. Some have argued that it is a fake. In my understanding, a similar quotation, from Dr. King's remarks at Harvard University, is generally thought to be legitimate. Others may be more familiar with the controversy than I am, but it may make more sense to use the Harvard quote if the authenticity of this version is in doubt.
"In Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter To An Anti-Zionist Friend," he says: '.. You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist'. And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of G-d's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- this is G-d's own truth.'"' Klmarcus
Come on. Arabs are semites to. Look up the correct defintion of semite. Arabs speak a semetic language. In this case why do jews have to hog up this term when Arabs are jews? Maybe it has to do with Jewish racists themselves thinking they represent the semetic race only and that other races are inferior perhaps? This article needs to mention Arabs. Zachorious 22:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Moving this section recently added by 160.39.240.61 ( talk · contribs) to talk: In James Joyce's epic Ulysses, the second chapter (aka the Nestor chapter) ends with the anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, pro-colonial and cruel headmaster, Mr. Deasy, running after the young teacher, Stephen Daedalous. The headmaster breathlessly asks Stephen, "Ireland, they say, has the honour of being the only country which never persecuted the Jews....And do you know why?" When Stephen asks why, the headmaster replies, "Because she never let them in." While the headmaster's comments indicate that the Irish had prevented Jewish immigration, this was not so; Ireland had never had formal policies against Jewish immigration, but the lack of Jewish immigrants (as well as the constant emigration) is explained by the constant poverty faced by the island in the centuries before the Celtic Tiger. In fact, for centuries, Hebrew remained one of the most popular languages to learn in Ireland, due to both the numbers of priests and nuns that came from Ireland and the strong religious devotion of the Irish people as a whole (Hebrew would have been used to study the Old Testament in its original form).
Ulysses deals mostly with the Jewish Leopold Bloom's observations as he walks around his native Dublin, so Mr. Deasy's comment is ironic in that sense. Another great irony of Mr. Deasy's anti-semitism is that Mr. Deasy is depicted as money-grubbing and greedy, which is a common misleading stereotype about the Jewish people against whom he rails. - This article is already over 100k. Literature on anti-Semitism or Antisemitism in fiction is whole another topic and if/when an article on it is created, this one may have a summary and a link, but this is not it. BTW, does Anti-Semitism#Evangelical perspectives on anti-Semitism belong in the article? ← Humus sapiens ну? 03:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a lot of good stuff in the article, but the intro is worrying. It reads as though there are three separate, and equally significant phenomena: 'anti-judaism', 'racial anti-semitism', and 'new anti-semitism'.
As in fact the section on definitions further down makes clear, there is no such clear cut separation between 'racial' and 'religious' anti-semitism - the intro contradicts this more considered and accurate approach. The intro as it stands seems to be saying that pogroms, blood libels and expulsions before the 19th century were the result of theological disputes, which is absurd.
'New anti-semitism' is a controversial and disputed idea. It shouldn't be represented as a fact, and certainly not as on a par with well attested forms of anti-semitism. I looked at the four citations given - these are all rather partisan, not particularly scholarly sources. Eg. a Canadian Liberal party politico, and an article in the Guardian that actually doesn't mention the term but has one off-the-cuff quote about anti-semitism and the left from Gerry Gable, a highly controversial figure in UK anti-fascism. The disputed opinions of a few recent commentators, often with an axe to grind against the left, are not equal to the decades of scholarly research into 'mainstream' notions of anti-semitism. Bengalski 10:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"In Toward a Definition of Antisemitism, Langmuir outlined a conceptual framework that differentiated between medieval anti-Judaism, in which the Jew was hated by Christians because he was a Jew (an adherent to a rival religion with competing truth-claims), and medieval anti-Semitism, in which the Jew became an unreal, demonic, invented creature, the product of Christian mythmakers (a child-killer, a poisoner of wells and, consequently, responsible for the Black Death), Dickson said. Langmuir's second book offered a general theoretical overview of medieval anti-Semitism." [ [9]]
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
honestly, the article about Poland and antisemitism is almost utopian. Despite the theoretical rights provided for the Jews, modern Poland - especially with the newly elected government and (as mentioned before) radio Maryja - is highly antisemitic. The ironic side of this is that the people who are openly criticising Jews and forming conspiracy theories are also the ones that deny the existence of any antisemitic connotations in Poland. At the term "Polish concentration camps" the Polish antisemitic masses just go crazy and riot over how it is untrue - or even how Jews make such stuff up.
Thus, I dare to say that the article is too idyllic part and doesn't correspond to reality. Of course, thousands of Polish antisemites are going to argue against any antisemetism taking place!
- 82.139.47.117 15:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja I have expanded it with issues of antisemitism (this is the largest and strongest Polish racist nationalwide radio station), but someone is always erasing everything I have added or reverted and his explanations are not really helpful- he tends to say that I am biased when writing about antisemitism. I am new to wikipedia and cannot do much about it. Please help. Moa anbessa 19:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Isn't Semitism an antisemetic concept? So surely the use of the hyphenated anti-semitic assumes that there is a semitic, so shouldn't we use the spelling 'antisemitic'?
It begins:
"The Jews in Germany were subject to many persecutions as well as brief times of tolerance. By the early 20th century, the Jews of Germany were the most integrated in Europe..."
The first sentence makes it sound as if anti-Jewish persecution in Germany has been the historical norm, punctuated only by short-lived (and temporary) respites. Yet, if the Jews of Germany were the most integrated in Europe, as the following sentence asserts, presumably that would have taken a considerable amount of time (a people cannot become well-integrated in a very short period of time).
Perhaps the first sentence should be reworded, along the lines of: "Jews in Germany have been subject to numerous persecutions as well as extended periods of tolerance."--
Critic9328
04:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Considering the extent to which the Nazis were anti-Christian? Are there citations for these statements?
-- Critic9328 04:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
From ReligiousTolerance.org: "Hitler re-used the blood-libel myth as justification for the Holocaust. The Nazi periodical, Der Stürmer, often published special issues devoted to allegations of ritual murder by Jews. Hitler had asked that a propaganda film be made of the 1840 Damascus case. World War II ended before it could be made." But I agree that more sources are needed here. -- Goodoldpolonius2 04:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Most anti-Semitism is not the result of actual religious criticism but bizarre stawmen, blood libels and other mayhem. Clearly it is some internalised fear projected on Jews. No more. JFW | T@lk 23:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
My sense is this recent addition very much dilutes and counters the meaning of the article overall: Jews are first portrayed as an oppressed people in Egypt. Subsequently, the Book of Esther tells about Haman, who seeks to destroy the Jews. The Books of the Maccabees recount the attempt to impose Greek religious ideas upon Jews. In 'Against Flaccus', Philo of Alexandria writes of an attack on Jews in the city of Alexandria about 38 CE. This last event is perhaps the most clearly religious in character.
Inorder to address POV, the first would require biblical references showing intolerance against non-Jewish groups. The second would require explaining that the Maccabees were attacking mostly Jews. The third would require a long explanation of commericial and cultural competition with violence and hate speech by more than one side. DaveHM 20:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
It says under a picture of a an Arabic book cover: 2005 Syrian edition of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion authorized by the Syrian Ministry of Information was featured at the Cairo International Book Fair
There are two reasons I'm against this: 1- It contains implicit criticism of the Syrian government (authorized by the Syrian MOI...). Wikipedia shouldn't pick and choose which details about a certain picture to include in the caption, especially if they're biased. 2- The title of the book does NOT say it is the 'Syrian edition of The PEZ'. The exact translation is: 'Lights on the the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Complete Texts). An Historical and Contemporary Investigative Study.' by Raja Abdulhamid Orabi. Published by the Syrian publisher 'Dar al-Awael'. -- Fjmustak 00:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
"Wikipedia shouldn't pick and choose which details about a certain picture to include in the caption, especially if they're biased." -- Who or what is meant to be biased here, because the details, insofar as they are facts cannot be biased one way or the other. Including select details while excluding others could be considered editing bias, but is there a serious case for this accusation?
I think the article needs to have more discussion about the different root-causes that have been proposed for anti-semitism. Has prejudice against the Jews for most of their history been more than that against other groups of people who have lived as religious and/or ethnic minorities? If so, then why?...
The AISH link [1] at the end of the article seems to do a fairly good job of debunking most of the common explainations (showing that they're either just symptoms or excuses, but its conclusion [2] is probably not acceptable to most accademics, or pretty much anyone who's not a pretty hard-core religious and nationalist Jew.
So then if we eliminate the AISH theory that people hate Jews because they're morally superior, and we eliminate the anti-semitic theory that they're sinister and evil, then what are we left with? I think this article should try and go into some depth and explore the different views on this issue.
Ruby, you're asking the wrong question in a Jewish dominated media world. The causes are obvious (Money, power, etc.), but they will NEVER be discussed in the open. Look at Germany in the 1920's: In the great depression Jewish banks and lawyers took many people's houses, farms and businesses. But if you start discussing this aspect of antisemitism or the holocaust you are automatically seen as antisemitic. And I bet it won't be long before this paragraph is deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.27.231.129 ( talk • contribs) .
Separation and Its Discontents: Toward an Evolutionary Theory of Anti-Semitism should be mentioned Jim Bowery 06:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Please see Category:Antisemitism (People) [ [3]] and vote here[ [4]]. Doright 03:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
An apparent newbie is getting close to the WP:3RR vio in an attempt to remove a reference substantiating the anti-semitic (and not only anti-semitic) activities of the late I. M. Vinogradov, refusing to talk via the talk page. I'm going off to sleep, and ask to watchlist the article, and help to polish the edit conflict section to as encyclopaedic and neutral version as possible. TIA, -- BACbKA 23:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I STILL don't understand, after searching the web for numerous times, how do they even justify their hatred? Please, someone, tell me... it doesn't even read where "anti-semitism" started from -- 84.249.252.211 13:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
For more examples of Anti-Semitism, follow the repeated attemps of some Wikipedians to re-introduce the racist use of the word "Aryan" into Wikipedia. Follow the discussions here and see examples on the following articles: Persian people, Tajik people, Iranian peoples, Aryan, and Indo-Iranians. Your help would be appreciated. Aucaman Talk 03:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
In refrence to this passage, below, I question the accuracy of connecting the notions of a Zionist conspiracy using it to support anti-Semitism with left wing politics. The left wing is anti-zionist, sure, but they don't use such a possition to conflate it to support anti-Semitism, which the left has always been strongly opposed to. I havn't changed anything yet as I'd like to see what others say, if anyone defends this characterization. Thanks. Giovanni33 18:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
"In a recent incarnation, extremist groups, such as Neo-Nazi parties and Islamist groups, claim that the aim of Zionism is global domination; they call this the Zionist conspiracy and use it to support anti-Semitism. This position is associated with fascism and Nazism, though increasingly, it is becoming a tendency within parts of the left as well.
The difference between the word "associated" and "emenates" is that the former merely purports some connection, not even a direct cause and effect, while the latter describes a formation directly from it, as in a emerges, germination, outgrowth, arises from, etc. That is conveyed by the word emerges. This is a POV, to be sure, but its far from a fact. The contrary POV is that the new anti-semitism is very much the old anti-semitism dressed in new clothing borrowed from the left. The clothes change but not the man. The possition the idenfities anti-zionism itself with anti-semitism is very controversial and I've provided sources which clearly state that. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_anti-Semitism#State_of_the_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_anti-Semitism#Criticism
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040202/klug
Many writers even questioned whether there really is any new anti-Semitism, and see it as a ploy to deflect or stifle legitimate criticism of Israel. Notably we have
Norman Finkelstein dedicates the first half of his book
Beyond Chutzpah
[5] to discussing claims of new anti-Semitism, arguing that they simply provide political cover to supporters of Israel. He advances similar arguments in
The Holocaust Industry and other books. The best known proponent of such views is the Jewish scholar
Noam Chomsky, who maintains that the Anti-Defamation League is viewing legitimate criticism of Israeli policies as anti-Semitism while turning a blind eye to blatant examples of traditional anti-Semitism. He documents this in some of his books, like "Necessary Illusions." Also, take a look at the Nation article by Klug I give above. Its eas to see that the view that anti-zionism is anti-semitism is a fringe view that is very controversial to say the least. That is why I supported the original text which diferenciated the two possitions describing this one as controverisal.
Giovanni33
02:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
wouldn't it be nice to get this article a section regarding causal, historical, ideological etc. efforts to actually explain the phenomenon 'antisemitism'? e.g. beginning with publications by moishe postone, professor of history at chicago university ( http://history.uchicago.edu/faculty/postone.html)?
I think this would also be a positive step, explaining the reasons why people mistakenly gain anti-semitic views would help stifle any "no smoke without fire" arguments used by anti-semites.
In case anyone is concerned, my mass of edits here today contain no content change. I converted references to the new notes format, added a few wiki links and commas. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 08:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
THere is a category called "Religious anti-Semitism", yet it only talks about Christianity. Shouldn't it be labelled "Anti-Semitism and the Christian world" in parallel to "Anti-Semitism and the Muslim world"; or the section to be labelled "Christian Anti-Semitism". 172.175.0.149 00:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I've changed the phrase "anthropological ideas" to "early and misconceived evolutionary ideas", as the modern science of anthropology completely disregards the idea of race as having any genetic distinction, and as being a cultural construct. This is the concensus among biological anthropologists, biologists, and geneticists in the scholarly world; racial characteristics are simply dominant genetic traits that are usually adaptations to climate among early groups of humans, both related and unrelated. Sociologists and racially-related studies (such as African-American studies) are the only ones who still uphold the more archaic ideas regarding race, regarding these groups as fundamentally different from each other biologically in a profound way, when genetics has shown the opposite to be true(see gene flow, especially in relation to early population groups). While I realise that the discrimination of Jewish people is based upon these mistaken notions of early biologists and proto-anthropologists (and I think I've communicated that in the revised sentence), I don't want to misrepresent to casual readers and those unfamiliar with scientific disciplines what these disciplines actually have concluded. (One of the first things you're taught in a biological anthropology class is: "forget what you think you know about race. It's all in your mind, and in history books. We created race, it doesn't exist.")
Oh, and please stop reverting my edits. Someone who has this article on their watchlist has already done this, and it's annoying when the edit is a clarification of a misunderstood earlier edit. --signed manually; I'm not signed in-- Kaelus 05:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I came here to post something in the talk page to realise that the anonymous user has added the Turkishdailynews articles regarding the Armenians. It should not be here for the following reasons: Turkishdailynews publish a series of anti-Armenian articles aimed at denying the Armenian genocide and making of the Armenians the beast of the world. It even actually has a section dedicated to 'Armenian issues' in which people like Sedat Laciner (a member of the Turkish government founded Institute of Armenian studies founded primarly to deny the Armenian genocide and heading the said Ankara-based International Strategic Research Organisation) who even wrote an entire book answering Egoyans move Ararat, continue the work of Turkaya Ataov in associating the Armenians with the NAZI.
Well, here was what I was going to post here, I already brought some of those references in the past and it was adviced to me to add them, but I haven't done so because I would have probably be accused again of anti-Turkism etc. So I bring it here and leave contributors of this article do whatever they think is best.
On December 15, 1941, the ship named “Struma” with 761 Jewish passengers escaping the NAZI invasion arrives in Istanbul and asks for the authorization to cross the Bosphorus. The ship had to wait until February 24, 1942, over a month of negotiations, Turkey denied access. The starving passagers were not fed, the Ship had to return and was torpedoed by a submarine.[1] One survivor. One day later, the then prime minister Refik Saydam, justifies his refusal to permit access by the following remarks: “Turkey cannot be the destination of undesirable refugees.” [2]
On November 11, 1942, Turkey impose the Capital Tax mainly directed against the Armenians, Greeks and Jews. The introduction of this tax was justified as follows: “Against those who profit from the hospitality offered by this country and become wealthy, while at the same time abrogate their responsibilities at this critical moment, the law will be applied with full force.” [3] Propositions against two three ethnic groups were made, for the Jews, it was said: “Stop all Jewish immigration, while provoking incidents within the country with the goal of creating a Jewish exodus, keep them away from all government activity, be it financial or economic.” [4]
In 2005, Hitlers book Mein Kampf has become a bestseller for months in Turkey [5] and according to a report published in three part antisemitism is raising in Turkish medias and that not only Mein Kampf has become a best seller but also The Protocols of Elders of Zion and The International Jew. [6]
[1] Wasserstein, Bernard: Their Own Fault; Attempts to shift the blame for the Holocaust. Times Literary Supplement (London) 1-7-94
[2] Hamit Bozarslan, Histoire de la Turquie contemporaine, Ed.de le Découverte, 2004, pp. 47-48
[3] Ridvan Akar, Askale Yolculari—Varlik Vergisi ve Çalisma Kamplari, Belge Uluslararasi Yayincilik, Istanbul, 1999 p. 5
[4] Ridvan Akar, Askale Yolculari—Varlik Vergisi ve Çalisma Kamplari, Belge Uluslararasi Yayincilik, Istanbul, 1999 pp. 186-187
[5] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4361733.stm
[6] http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP90005 http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP90405 http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP91605 Fad (ix) 22:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The latest barrage of edits by Robert Lindsay ( talk · contribs) need attention. E.g. this edit [6] is totally wrong. Yevsektsiya was not a "Jewish state". Please see Yevsektsiya and Jewish Autonomous Oblast. I don't have time to deal with it right now. ← Humus sapiens ну? 10:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Robert Lindsay 12:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC) (talk)
User:Paul diffenderfer has made this change. It looks like original research to me. Thoughts? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 21:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the whole thing for now; it really needs some sourcing. As it stood, it was pure original research. Jayjg (talk) 05:29, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, no more reverting. Consider the following versions:
vs.
To me, the problem with the first version is that it adopts the point of view of a person worried about antisemitism. While I am a person worried about antisemitism, I think Wikipedia should present statements about people's views rather than taking on those views as its own. Expressions such as "This rhetoric often crosses the line..." make it sound as if there exists a specific, determinable line between criticism of Israel and antisemitic views, and that Wikipedia knows where that line is. That is, this expression purports to lecture people on the meaning of their own views.
Likewise, in the second paragraph, using terms such as "the problem of anti-Semitism" and "worrying expressions" gives an air of moralistic lecturing to the article. The claim that antisemitism is a worrying problem is one which many people wholeheartedly agree with. However, Wikipedia does not hold this opinion (because Wikipedia doesn't hold opinions). When we are writing with Wikipedia's voice about matters social and political, we need to hew carefully to neutrality. This means that even when we personally despise a specific view (such as antisemitism) we do not call that view a "problem".
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an ethical or moral tract. It is worthy of note that when we describe ideologies and beliefs that almost everyone in the world regards as evil -- such as, say, Nazism -- we do not put the word "evil" into Wikipedia's mouth. (No, really. The article on Nazism does not say that Nazism is evil. It presents what Nazis believe and do, and allows the reader to conclude the obvious.)
When we present an opinion (such as "antisemitism is worrying" or "antisemitism is a problem"), we do it best when we attribute that view to specific sources. When we describe a fact (such as "antisemitic violence has risen in Europe") we describe it neutrally, rather than saying, e.g., "antisemitic violence has risen worryingly in Europe". -- FOo 18:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be an article titled Anti-Semitism in the Middle East or Anti-Semitism in the Muslim World? Within Islamic countries, anti-Semitism is not just specific to Arabs. There's a great deal of anti-Semitism in Iran and probably other places like Pakistan. Any ideas about how we should go about organizing these? Aucaman Talk 19:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that article should focus on anti-semitism caused by Islam or anti-Semitism done in the name of Islam. The problem is that a large part of anti-Semitism in the Muslim World actually comes from secular forces and has nothing to do with Islam per se. That's why I'm proposing making at least one of the two articles mentioned above. Aucaman Talk 00:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Can you give more details as to what exactly you have in mind? Also, how will you diffrentiatie between religous and secular forces?
Bless sins
10:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Please, remove the definite article. It must be Crimea, not the Crimea.
Righ? -- 85.29.75.16 13:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I think you're right, but since anti-Semitism exclusively targets Jews, not Arabs, it's not really relevant. Unmitigated Success 13:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century
Is "pseudo-scientific" a legitimate description of the now discredited 19th century racial theories? Or were they just wrong science (i.e., acceptable with the scientific context of the 19th C, but not now)? Perhaps we might just want to remove the word adjective (whether pseudo-scientific or scientific) altogether; we could clarify with, perhaps, "Now discredited theories concerning..." -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as "Semitism," and in German it's 'Antisemitismus.' "ANTI-SEMITISM spelled with a hyphen" does not "conform to scholarly usage." [ [7]], says Robert Michael, Prof. European History, UMASS Dartmouth. Regards, Doright 06:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Vote They are attempting to close the +cat AGAIN, please vote to KEEP.
This article portrays anti-semititism as evil. Personally, I agree, but its a bias, fair or not. Kashami 21:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't argue it as being biased, beyond holding the bias of upholding equality. You can make the same arguement for anything.
GA pending on these modifications (change the first 2):
No user tried to change the article in a 2 day time period which shows clearly no intention to bring the article neither to the GA status or the FA status. Sorry, the article failed the GA for the modifications above. Lincher 21:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Does The Merchant of Venice deserve a mention? Perhaps in a Renaissance sub-section (separate from Reformation)?-- Shtove 19:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The following quotation from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was recently posted. Some have argued that it is a fake. In my understanding, a similar quotation, from Dr. King's remarks at Harvard University, is generally thought to be legitimate. Others may be more familiar with the controversy than I am, but it may make more sense to use the Harvard quote if the authenticity of this version is in doubt.
"In Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter To An Anti-Zionist Friend," he says: '.. You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist'. And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of G-d's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- this is G-d's own truth.'"' Klmarcus
Come on. Arabs are semites to. Look up the correct defintion of semite. Arabs speak a semetic language. In this case why do jews have to hog up this term when Arabs are jews? Maybe it has to do with Jewish racists themselves thinking they represent the semetic race only and that other races are inferior perhaps? This article needs to mention Arabs. Zachorious 22:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Moving this section recently added by 160.39.240.61 ( talk · contribs) to talk: In James Joyce's epic Ulysses, the second chapter (aka the Nestor chapter) ends with the anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, pro-colonial and cruel headmaster, Mr. Deasy, running after the young teacher, Stephen Daedalous. The headmaster breathlessly asks Stephen, "Ireland, they say, has the honour of being the only country which never persecuted the Jews....And do you know why?" When Stephen asks why, the headmaster replies, "Because she never let them in." While the headmaster's comments indicate that the Irish had prevented Jewish immigration, this was not so; Ireland had never had formal policies against Jewish immigration, but the lack of Jewish immigrants (as well as the constant emigration) is explained by the constant poverty faced by the island in the centuries before the Celtic Tiger. In fact, for centuries, Hebrew remained one of the most popular languages to learn in Ireland, due to both the numbers of priests and nuns that came from Ireland and the strong religious devotion of the Irish people as a whole (Hebrew would have been used to study the Old Testament in its original form).
Ulysses deals mostly with the Jewish Leopold Bloom's observations as he walks around his native Dublin, so Mr. Deasy's comment is ironic in that sense. Another great irony of Mr. Deasy's anti-semitism is that Mr. Deasy is depicted as money-grubbing and greedy, which is a common misleading stereotype about the Jewish people against whom he rails. - This article is already over 100k. Literature on anti-Semitism or Antisemitism in fiction is whole another topic and if/when an article on it is created, this one may have a summary and a link, but this is not it. BTW, does Anti-Semitism#Evangelical perspectives on anti-Semitism belong in the article? ← Humus sapiens ну? 03:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a lot of good stuff in the article, but the intro is worrying. It reads as though there are three separate, and equally significant phenomena: 'anti-judaism', 'racial anti-semitism', and 'new anti-semitism'.
As in fact the section on definitions further down makes clear, there is no such clear cut separation between 'racial' and 'religious' anti-semitism - the intro contradicts this more considered and accurate approach. The intro as it stands seems to be saying that pogroms, blood libels and expulsions before the 19th century were the result of theological disputes, which is absurd.
'New anti-semitism' is a controversial and disputed idea. It shouldn't be represented as a fact, and certainly not as on a par with well attested forms of anti-semitism. I looked at the four citations given - these are all rather partisan, not particularly scholarly sources. Eg. a Canadian Liberal party politico, and an article in the Guardian that actually doesn't mention the term but has one off-the-cuff quote about anti-semitism and the left from Gerry Gable, a highly controversial figure in UK anti-fascism. The disputed opinions of a few recent commentators, often with an axe to grind against the left, are not equal to the decades of scholarly research into 'mainstream' notions of anti-semitism. Bengalski 10:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"In Toward a Definition of Antisemitism, Langmuir outlined a conceptual framework that differentiated between medieval anti-Judaism, in which the Jew was hated by Christians because he was a Jew (an adherent to a rival religion with competing truth-claims), and medieval anti-Semitism, in which the Jew became an unreal, demonic, invented creature, the product of Christian mythmakers (a child-killer, a poisoner of wells and, consequently, responsible for the Black Death), Dickson said. Langmuir's second book offered a general theoretical overview of medieval anti-Semitism." [ [9]]