![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I have read some article on Batman, the author (I forgot who) classified the original Batman as an antihero because the real batman was a psychotic maniac with a deeply troubled childhood. He was a vigilante who would kill the criminals ruthlessly. The original Batman wouldn't care to uphold the law, he had his own law. When the character was brought to the TV screen, the character was watered down to become a hero for the general public. And the comic book character also changed to match.
Someone who know Batman well should add something to this and the Batman article.
Kowloonese 07:12, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)
You are wrong. Batman DID use a gun when he started, and he was a vigilante. He killed people. Thee guy who created batman did not spend a lot of time with plot when he was creating that character. The simple reason was he make the first issue in a few days after seeing how much money supermans creators were being paid. He told his own publisher for his bit pieces "For this type of money, I'll have one for you by monday!" He did!
I forget the name of the book, and even if I did remember it, the book was damaged and the library I borrowed it from has probably thrown it out already. I hope someone else can find referances to these things. Corrupt one 02:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I found the book. I guess I was wrong with some things. He DID use a gun, and some people died, but most of the deaths were in sidestories and filler made by guest artists and other such people. I will look more. One thing I can confirm by just glancing throught the book DC Comics by Les Daniels is that he WAS made quickly and mostly by ripping off things from other people, including villans.
There was also a gun used by him for shooting silver bullets when fighting vampires, but was quickly withdrawn as the comic industry was worried about getting into trouble for promoting violence. I'll have to red more, but I will check up on things. Then I will probably add some to the Bataman article. Corrupt one 01:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that tragic heroes really count as anti-heroes. An anti-hero is someone who would normally be considered a villain but is treated as the protagonist of a story. Tragic heroes are simply heroes who fail (usually due to the inability to overcome a fundamental conflict with their environment-- Arthur Miller wrote an interesting essay about this). Heroism is not defined by success. - Gwalla 07:23, May 1, 2004 (UTC)
An Antihero is an unconventional hero. Tragic heroes ARE a type of conventional hero, and are thuse excluded from being a type of antihero for that reason. If it was unusual and unconventional in other ways, then they might be counted.
Also the term classic antihero seems like a contradition in terms. Corrupt one 03:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Where would an anti-hero like King Ubu or Eric Cartman fit in?-- Sonjaaa 03:08, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
I understand that this is a dead discussion, but I could not stop myself from commenting on the absurdity of seeing people engaged in an intellectual discussion about a show like South Park, however brief that discussion may be. 63.215.29.111 00:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, since I have looked at the wide range of definitions for Antihero, I would dare to say that they ALL qualify as antiheroes, since the only people excluded are convntional heroes, and none of the characters there qualify as that! Corrupt one 23:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
But, since adding examples to this page does little to improve it, I'd suggest we not go down this road. CaveatLector Talk 16:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure Daredevil is really an "end justifies the means" type, at least no more than any other costumed vigilante. You could just as easily say Clark Kent becomes Superman when the power of the press fails 8-)... Daibhid C 12:45, 4 September 2004 (UTC
I see him as a vigilante in type, although his blindness MAY be considered enough to make him a antihero. Corrupt one 00:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Daredevil is genrally portrayed as a tragic Hero, rather than an anti-hero. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.48.164.236 ( talk) 04:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
How bout Macbeth? Gkhan 15:22, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
How was he heroic?
Corrupt one
00:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Macbeth is the Ideal Shakespearean Tragic hero, which is slightly different from the Aristotle who did not require or prefer the hero to die at the end.
And when talking about general term such as heroic keep in mind that Creon is considered a tragic hero, meaning that literature from pre-enlightenment has a completely different idea of what is and what is not heroic. Iamprsn9 ( talk) 01:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I admite I am no expert in Shakespear, but I seem to recall he murdered his way to the throne and went mad. That is about all that I can remember off the top of my head, except for a few lines. How can he be classified as any type of hero, tragic or otherwise? Corrupt one ( talk) 23:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. I will admit he WAS a brave and loyal servant of his king at the start, and that MAY give him some slight heroic status there, but when he turned on the very things that gave him ANY status of being a hero, he lost any claim to be a hero. Still, this is all OR and we can't add it to the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corrupt one ( talk • contribs) 23:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it should be noted in the article that the definition of anti-hero is controversial, and for a particular character can depend on the reader. (Would be helped by links to varying definitions and examples). Njál 14:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
An antihero is braodly defined as a main character who shows few, if any traditional values of a hero. However, the preveouse entry stated that in general terms an antihero is normally accepted as a type of hero that is atypical and can't be defined by heroic values. Whoever it was stated this simply and without using a lot of terms that you are confusing to some people. They summed it up in one little sentecne that is understood by all!
I can hardly make sense of the definition you have there at the moment! Corrupt one 04:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
would the hobbits from Lord of the Rings and Abe from Oddworld count as anti-heros in the sense that they arent traditional heroes since they are physicly very weak but have a strong spirit?
Absolutely not. The Hobbits are classical heroes in that they are loyal, brave, pure of heart, self-sacrificial and value the greater good above their own suffering. Bilbo Baggins in "The Hobbit" is classic reluctant hero.
This is about more then just hobbits. This part can be about ANY type of being that is normally excluded from being a hero due to its physical form. Beings like
Hellboy (who is a DEMON for crying out loud) and any other thing. I remember a book where an Ogre was a paladin of the God of Justice. How about we work from there with this segment?
Corrupt one (
talk)
23:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I have a question regarding the category appearance. Is there any difference between a category listed as, say, [[Category:Anti-heroes|*]], or the variant without the asterisk, which would be [[Category:Anti-heroes]]? I did not see any, but maybe I'll need new glasses, so please help me. Noya Watan July 7, 2005 11:24 (UTC)
Ooh, can we have sources for Achilles being considered an anti-hero, please? Njál 14:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't the very end on the Troyan war retold at the begining of the Odyssey? I think I heard the Odyssey tells what happens with Odysseus and his crew after the war while going back to Greace. I do know there is no written story from those times describing the war, the story survived through oral tradition. However, greek stories are full of anti-heroes, none of them are really good people. I think the greek stories rather tell morals by showing the protagonist imperfections and weaknesses and how these make them fall. The concept of hero was diferent, instead of the medieval idealism of fighting for your lady and rescuing villages from villains, greek heroes are about the blory of beating thousands foreighners and the ocational huge monster and getting as many chicks as possible. I wouldn't say Achiles is a hero in modern terms. Even if he did as in that movie, his arrogance and principles, rather make him anti-hero. What do you think?-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 19:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Homer Simpson is a good example of an anti-hero?!?! How ridiculous. Can there be a single wikipedia article without referencing the Simpsons as an example?
David R 15:11, 29 Dec 2005 (UTC)
Well I see your point, but U.S.Americans and the world in general have a tendency to idolatrate mediocres like Homer & Bart, Seinfeld & ganng(the ultimate anti-hero), Peter Griffin, The futurama characters, Sam Malone, Fred Flintstone, Gilligan, and so on. None of the these are really admirable, charming or good intended maybe, but not admirable. Even Bugs Bunny isn't a very good example to follow. He is not mediocre, or evil, but he sure is naughty and kind of mean.-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 06:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
How are they heroic?
Corrupt one
00:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
A villain anti-hero is a villain people feel sorry for.
Who the hell feels sorry for Jason? He's a freaking killing machine. CrazyAussie 23:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I wish there was a larger body count, with even fewer survivors, and more horrible deaths. About the ONLY goodly things he has done is fight Freedy and kill a small gang. That was for selfish reasons. He is NO type of hero, not even an Antihero.
Corrupt one
00:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I've removed Jason and the Dukes of Hazard from the examples given for the catagories for the simple reason that, if characters start getting added again, this page is likely to get turned into a clone of the recently deleted list of anti-heroes. Let's try not to add anymore, I'd say. I'd suggest instead that, if you believe that a character deserves being made an example moreso than another, swap the names. CaveatLector 04:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Why are you removing the anti hero list for? You suppose to edit the list if there is any mistake on it. Please do not do the samething with out any reason real reason. I mean Some real reason beside rubbish such as "This will ruin the page" or "it is irrelevent". (The preceeding unsigned comment by user 218.250.208.174).
Antagonist and anti-hero are completely different terms. -- TheMidnighters 02:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm writing a mid-term paper for my high-school senior english class and my topic is the anonymous anti-hero in Notes from Underground, by Fyodor Dostoevsky. Among the sites I'm using for my research as well as the books, I came across this entry, and have decided to use it. My only qualm is how outraged I was when I discovered that whatever "list" had been made, left Dostoevsky's Underground Man and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson out. If you all don't mind -- I'd like to discuss a new category of anti-hero to put in here tha would include them both. The certainly have triats of some of the well crafted categories already there, but have many traits that render them neither/nor. There are plenty of others out there just like them, I'm sure.
Send me back, or reply to this if you want to help make the category.
Cheers.
We've been over the list of anti-heroes thing. We don't need extensive lists of popular fictional characters in order to explain the anti-hero archetypes to the average reader. If we wanted to do that, we would create a separate list (which was done, and it was VfDed, so there's that). If someone specifically feels that an example is wrong, then they should either bring it up here, or just be bold and replace it with a better example, but this shouldn't become a dumping ground. That just makes the article hard to read. - Harmil 04:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I noticed my recent addition has been removed; reading through the discussion list, I assume its for the same reason, i.e. that it was a "random list". However, I did not present the characters as random examples; rather, I was trying to point out that the antihero character seems to be common in pop culture today. I listed three well-known and critcally acclaimed TV shows, and provided documentation from NY Times that supported the exact point I was trying to make. I am respectfully asking for an explanation why my edits were removed. It's very frustrating to spend an extended bit of time on an entry only to have it completely wiped a day later. SgtOsiris ( talk) 02:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Give Frankenstien a read. The monster is actually not a villain at all. He is a tragic figure with deep flaws, but he is not a villain. The two villains presented in that book are abstract: science and fear. As such, I would strongly disagree with the suggestion that the monster and villain archetypes should be merged. I did remove Lestat, however, since he's actually more of the villainous anti-hero. - Harmil 04:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the problem is that you are talking about antiheroes in fiction, from my perspective in comics the term is limited to the characters that fight bad guys with unnecesary violence and sometimes even punish them. I mean anti-heros as defined on this page is such a wide concept (not that it is wrong), that every superhero fits at least a couple of sterotypes here. Spiderman is a loser (married with a top model, but still portrayed as a loser), Batman uses fear and spionage, wonderwoman is barely dress, even superman has had some weak moments. and in general none of them are recognized by the goverment to take justice in their hands. I think in comics context only the Spawn, X-men, Punisher, Venom or hitman kind are seen as anti-heros.-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 02:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I have found no definitions stating that an antihero must be a villian. I found one that states they MUST be a Hero! The only qualification that lead people to think them villians otherwise is lack of heroec traits (those recognized as heroec anyway) I say this is pointless! Corrupt one 03:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I have read some article on Batman, the author (I forgot who) classified the original Batman as an antihero because the real batman was a psychotic maniac with a deeply troubled childhood. He was a vigilante who would kill the criminals ruthlessly. The original Batman wouldn't care to uphold the law, he had his own law. When the character was brought to the TV screen, the character was watered down to become a hero for the general public. And the comic book character also changed to match.
Someone who know Batman well should add something to this and the Batman article.
Kowloonese 07:12, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)
You are wrong. Batman DID use a gun when he started, and he was a vigilante. He killed people. Thee guy who created batman did not spend a lot of time with plot when he was creating that character. The simple reason was he make the first issue in a few days after seeing how much money supermans creators were being paid. He told his own publisher for his bit pieces "For this type of money, I'll have one for you by monday!" He did!
I forget the name of the book, and even if I did remember it, the book was damaged and the library I borrowed it from has probably thrown it out already. I hope someone else can find referances to these things. Corrupt one 02:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I found the book. I guess I was wrong with some things. He DID use a gun, and some people died, but most of the deaths were in sidestories and filler made by guest artists and other such people. I will look more. One thing I can confirm by just glancing throught the book DC Comics by Les Daniels is that he WAS made quickly and mostly by ripping off things from other people, including villans.
There was also a gun used by him for shooting silver bullets when fighting vampires, but was quickly withdrawn as the comic industry was worried about getting into trouble for promoting violence. I'll have to red more, but I will check up on things. Then I will probably add some to the Bataman article. Corrupt one 01:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that tragic heroes really count as anti-heroes. An anti-hero is someone who would normally be considered a villain but is treated as the protagonist of a story. Tragic heroes are simply heroes who fail (usually due to the inability to overcome a fundamental conflict with their environment-- Arthur Miller wrote an interesting essay about this). Heroism is not defined by success. - Gwalla 07:23, May 1, 2004 (UTC)
An Antihero is an unconventional hero. Tragic heroes ARE a type of conventional hero, and are thuse excluded from being a type of antihero for that reason. If it was unusual and unconventional in other ways, then they might be counted.
Also the term classic antihero seems like a contradition in terms. Corrupt one 03:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Where would an anti-hero like King Ubu or Eric Cartman fit in?-- Sonjaaa 03:08, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
I understand that this is a dead discussion, but I could not stop myself from commenting on the absurdity of seeing people engaged in an intellectual discussion about a show like South Park, however brief that discussion may be. 63.215.29.111 00:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, since I have looked at the wide range of definitions for Antihero, I would dare to say that they ALL qualify as antiheroes, since the only people excluded are convntional heroes, and none of the characters there qualify as that! Corrupt one 23:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
But, since adding examples to this page does little to improve it, I'd suggest we not go down this road. CaveatLector Talk 16:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure Daredevil is really an "end justifies the means" type, at least no more than any other costumed vigilante. You could just as easily say Clark Kent becomes Superman when the power of the press fails 8-)... Daibhid C 12:45, 4 September 2004 (UTC
I see him as a vigilante in type, although his blindness MAY be considered enough to make him a antihero. Corrupt one 00:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Daredevil is genrally portrayed as a tragic Hero, rather than an anti-hero. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.48.164.236 ( talk) 04:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
How bout Macbeth? Gkhan 15:22, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
How was he heroic?
Corrupt one
00:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Macbeth is the Ideal Shakespearean Tragic hero, which is slightly different from the Aristotle who did not require or prefer the hero to die at the end.
And when talking about general term such as heroic keep in mind that Creon is considered a tragic hero, meaning that literature from pre-enlightenment has a completely different idea of what is and what is not heroic. Iamprsn9 ( talk) 01:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I admite I am no expert in Shakespear, but I seem to recall he murdered his way to the throne and went mad. That is about all that I can remember off the top of my head, except for a few lines. How can he be classified as any type of hero, tragic or otherwise? Corrupt one ( talk) 23:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. I will admit he WAS a brave and loyal servant of his king at the start, and that MAY give him some slight heroic status there, but when he turned on the very things that gave him ANY status of being a hero, he lost any claim to be a hero. Still, this is all OR and we can't add it to the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corrupt one ( talk • contribs) 23:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it should be noted in the article that the definition of anti-hero is controversial, and for a particular character can depend on the reader. (Would be helped by links to varying definitions and examples). Njál 14:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
An antihero is braodly defined as a main character who shows few, if any traditional values of a hero. However, the preveouse entry stated that in general terms an antihero is normally accepted as a type of hero that is atypical and can't be defined by heroic values. Whoever it was stated this simply and without using a lot of terms that you are confusing to some people. They summed it up in one little sentecne that is understood by all!
I can hardly make sense of the definition you have there at the moment! Corrupt one 04:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
would the hobbits from Lord of the Rings and Abe from Oddworld count as anti-heros in the sense that they arent traditional heroes since they are physicly very weak but have a strong spirit?
Absolutely not. The Hobbits are classical heroes in that they are loyal, brave, pure of heart, self-sacrificial and value the greater good above their own suffering. Bilbo Baggins in "The Hobbit" is classic reluctant hero.
This is about more then just hobbits. This part can be about ANY type of being that is normally excluded from being a hero due to its physical form. Beings like
Hellboy (who is a DEMON for crying out loud) and any other thing. I remember a book where an Ogre was a paladin of the God of Justice. How about we work from there with this segment?
Corrupt one (
talk)
23:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I have a question regarding the category appearance. Is there any difference between a category listed as, say, [[Category:Anti-heroes|*]], or the variant without the asterisk, which would be [[Category:Anti-heroes]]? I did not see any, but maybe I'll need new glasses, so please help me. Noya Watan July 7, 2005 11:24 (UTC)
Ooh, can we have sources for Achilles being considered an anti-hero, please? Njál 14:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't the very end on the Troyan war retold at the begining of the Odyssey? I think I heard the Odyssey tells what happens with Odysseus and his crew after the war while going back to Greace. I do know there is no written story from those times describing the war, the story survived through oral tradition. However, greek stories are full of anti-heroes, none of them are really good people. I think the greek stories rather tell morals by showing the protagonist imperfections and weaknesses and how these make them fall. The concept of hero was diferent, instead of the medieval idealism of fighting for your lady and rescuing villages from villains, greek heroes are about the blory of beating thousands foreighners and the ocational huge monster and getting as many chicks as possible. I wouldn't say Achiles is a hero in modern terms. Even if he did as in that movie, his arrogance and principles, rather make him anti-hero. What do you think?-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 19:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Homer Simpson is a good example of an anti-hero?!?! How ridiculous. Can there be a single wikipedia article without referencing the Simpsons as an example?
David R 15:11, 29 Dec 2005 (UTC)
Well I see your point, but U.S.Americans and the world in general have a tendency to idolatrate mediocres like Homer & Bart, Seinfeld & ganng(the ultimate anti-hero), Peter Griffin, The futurama characters, Sam Malone, Fred Flintstone, Gilligan, and so on. None of the these are really admirable, charming or good intended maybe, but not admirable. Even Bugs Bunny isn't a very good example to follow. He is not mediocre, or evil, but he sure is naughty and kind of mean.-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 06:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
How are they heroic?
Corrupt one
00:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
A villain anti-hero is a villain people feel sorry for.
Who the hell feels sorry for Jason? He's a freaking killing machine. CrazyAussie 23:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I wish there was a larger body count, with even fewer survivors, and more horrible deaths. About the ONLY goodly things he has done is fight Freedy and kill a small gang. That was for selfish reasons. He is NO type of hero, not even an Antihero.
Corrupt one
00:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I've removed Jason and the Dukes of Hazard from the examples given for the catagories for the simple reason that, if characters start getting added again, this page is likely to get turned into a clone of the recently deleted list of anti-heroes. Let's try not to add anymore, I'd say. I'd suggest instead that, if you believe that a character deserves being made an example moreso than another, swap the names. CaveatLector 04:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Why are you removing the anti hero list for? You suppose to edit the list if there is any mistake on it. Please do not do the samething with out any reason real reason. I mean Some real reason beside rubbish such as "This will ruin the page" or "it is irrelevent". (The preceeding unsigned comment by user 218.250.208.174).
Antagonist and anti-hero are completely different terms. -- TheMidnighters 02:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm writing a mid-term paper for my high-school senior english class and my topic is the anonymous anti-hero in Notes from Underground, by Fyodor Dostoevsky. Among the sites I'm using for my research as well as the books, I came across this entry, and have decided to use it. My only qualm is how outraged I was when I discovered that whatever "list" had been made, left Dostoevsky's Underground Man and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson out. If you all don't mind -- I'd like to discuss a new category of anti-hero to put in here tha would include them both. The certainly have triats of some of the well crafted categories already there, but have many traits that render them neither/nor. There are plenty of others out there just like them, I'm sure.
Send me back, or reply to this if you want to help make the category.
Cheers.
We've been over the list of anti-heroes thing. We don't need extensive lists of popular fictional characters in order to explain the anti-hero archetypes to the average reader. If we wanted to do that, we would create a separate list (which was done, and it was VfDed, so there's that). If someone specifically feels that an example is wrong, then they should either bring it up here, or just be bold and replace it with a better example, but this shouldn't become a dumping ground. That just makes the article hard to read. - Harmil 04:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I noticed my recent addition has been removed; reading through the discussion list, I assume its for the same reason, i.e. that it was a "random list". However, I did not present the characters as random examples; rather, I was trying to point out that the antihero character seems to be common in pop culture today. I listed three well-known and critcally acclaimed TV shows, and provided documentation from NY Times that supported the exact point I was trying to make. I am respectfully asking for an explanation why my edits were removed. It's very frustrating to spend an extended bit of time on an entry only to have it completely wiped a day later. SgtOsiris ( talk) 02:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Give Frankenstien a read. The monster is actually not a villain at all. He is a tragic figure with deep flaws, but he is not a villain. The two villains presented in that book are abstract: science and fear. As such, I would strongly disagree with the suggestion that the monster and villain archetypes should be merged. I did remove Lestat, however, since he's actually more of the villainous anti-hero. - Harmil 04:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the problem is that you are talking about antiheroes in fiction, from my perspective in comics the term is limited to the characters that fight bad guys with unnecesary violence and sometimes even punish them. I mean anti-heros as defined on this page is such a wide concept (not that it is wrong), that every superhero fits at least a couple of sterotypes here. Spiderman is a loser (married with a top model, but still portrayed as a loser), Batman uses fear and spionage, wonderwoman is barely dress, even superman has had some weak moments. and in general none of them are recognized by the goverment to take justice in their hands. I think in comics context only the Spawn, X-men, Punisher, Venom or hitman kind are seen as anti-heros.-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 02:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I have found no definitions stating that an antihero must be a villian. I found one that states they MUST be a Hero! The only qualification that lead people to think them villians otherwise is lack of heroec traits (those recognized as heroec anyway) I say this is pointless! Corrupt one 03:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)