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Would someone please explain how the following in the article makes sense:
A distinction also needs to be drawn between the anti-Zionism of those who actively seek the physical destruction of Israel and the death or expulsion of its Jewish inhabitants, and the anti-Zionism of those who argue that Israel ought to be voluntarily transformed into a state in which Jews and Palestinians live together as equals. While committed Zionists may see little validity to this distinction, it is a real one.
How is it anti-Zionist to support the expansion of Israel to occupy all of Palestine in a state incorporating both Jews and Arabs? That appears to be an objective of at least some Zionist groups, including the pre-independence groups which wanted all of Palestine for Israel, and it seems odd to describe as an anti-Zionist position something which includes those clearly pro-Zionist views.
Is it the policy of Israel today that Jews and Arabs are NOT equal within Israel? If it isn't, the equality portion also seems not to be useful, since it would be describing the official policy of Israel as anti-Zionist. Jamesday 10:19, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Anti-Zionism" logically has to mean "opposed to the objectives of Zionism," and there is no doubt that the objective of the Zionist movement today is the defence of Israel as a Jewish state, a state which Jews control by virtue of being a large majority of the population. It is true that Jews and Arabs are for most (though not all) purposes equal in Israel, but that is because Arabs are a 10% minority and they don't jeopardise the Jews' majority status. A reunited pre-1948 Palestine would have only a very narrow Jewish majority, and if the 1948 refugees and their descendents were allowed to return it would have an Arab majority. This is clearly contrary to the current objectives of Zionism, and to propose it is therefore in that sense "anti-Zionist." This is not to make any comment on the merits of the proposal. Adam 10:41, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Surely "While committed Zionists may see little validity to this distinction, it is a real one" is rather insulting to the intelligence of Zionists? I'm kind of curious - do you have any quotes from people who find it difficult to distinguish these two diametrically opposed positions? - Mustafaa 23:23, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
"Israteen", by the way, is a combination of "Israel" and "Filasteen". I suppose some would still interpret this as calling for the "destruction" of Israel, but clearly not for, as the article put it, the "physical destruction" of it. - Mustafaa 08:14, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
The EUMC recently issued a two reports on anti-semitism in europe and whether or not there are links to anti-zionism. suprised that they are not referenced here. http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/index.php?fuseaction=content.dsp_cat_content&catid=1
How are they not ultra-Orthodox? That goes against everything else I've read about them. - Mustafaa 18:19, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Since zionism is dealing only with the zionist POV, this article should be dealing only with the anti-zionist POV.
How about an introduction like this
Anti-Zionism is a term that has been used to describe several very different political and religious points of view, both historically and in current debates. All these points of view have in common some form of opposition to Zionism.
Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination. It follows that anti-zionism is a form of anti-racism."
This is of course not NPOV, but it states the POV of the anti-zionists, just like zionism simply presents the POV of the zionists as the only truth with no opposition. Should this be a fair solution to the problem? Zw 22:37, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You just don't get it, do you? Adam 02:24, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think the wikipedia as it stands is a little too biased toward the Zionist point of view. (For example, following the Zionist page it would lead you to beleive intellectuals like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn held their beliefs only because they were "socialist liberals." Ha, as if that was the only intellectual opposition to Zionism. And as if there weren't Jewish Israeli citizens who also opposed Zionism.) I really only see this being resolved by separate articles from the moderate-Zionist and from the moderate-Anti-Zionist. Any extreme views do not belong, but naturally people are going to disagree on this one issue. I just don't want every article to sound like it was written from the POV of the ADL. MShonle 07:28, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Neither Zionism nor Anti-Zionism are written from any point of view. They are encyclopaedia articles, which present facts as objectively as possible. I am happy to debate the accuracy of any fact presented in either article, or any fact which anyone feels has been omitted from either article. But kindly spare us any more of this crap about what point of view the articles represent or ought to represent. Adam 10:17, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have no idea what that means. Adam 04:55, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have a PhD in history, so kindly don't patronise me. I believe it is possible to write an objective and truthful article about both Zionism and anti-Zionism, and I believe these articles come fairly close to being that. I am happy to debate specific issues. I am not interested in a philosophical debate about the meaning of truth etc. Adam 06:52, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The article makes no such claim. It says that anti-Zionist views are widely and increasingly held in most western countries. Adam 07:17, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Adam Carr wrote: "I have a PhD in history"
I feel this article is quite biased. It does not really represent anti zionism in a neutral fashion. For example, while the article states that anti zionism is not anti semitic, it gives an example of a soviet cartoon which clearly implies the opposite, why? The links I have added are key texts and articles for western leftist anti zionists....please do not remove them.
I put in the above wording because I think it would really clarify things. I believe that most people I know who object to Zionism would not object to it if the Palestinians didn't have to pay the cost. For example, if Jewish settlers wanted to occupy a previously uninhabitated land, I doubt there would be any objection to Zionism at all. However, the implementation of Zionism is not only that there should be a Jewish state, but that is should be in Palestine. That is the critical difference, and it's a disservice to those who oppose zionism to act like they only oppose the abstract idea of it, when in reality virtually all oppose the specific way it's been done. MShonle 09:27, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I changed the term "disapproval of the treatment" to "disapproval of the perceived treatment", as more NPOV. Jayjg
The current intro already includes these concerns, in more eloquently-stated form. It says that Zionism is either support for a Jewish homeland, or support for the State of Israel as the Jewish homeland. Anti-Zionism, therefore, is opposition to either of these objectives. It is not necessary to redundantly say "or Anti-Zionism can be opposition to a specific implementation", because the State of Israel is a specific implementation. -- Delirium 18:22, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
This article is now being turned into the same swamp of slogans and propaganda as all the other Israeli-Palestinian etc articles at Wikipedia. This is mostly Zw's fault. I am very annoyed about this, since weeks of work went into getting it into a state which was both intellectually respectable and acceptable to all the people then working on it. I don't have time at present to respond to all the current damage being done to the article, not do I enjoy redoing work which I have already done once. I may just take it off my watchlist and let it degenerate into the same useless mess as most other related articles. On the other hand I may return and purge all this stuff with fire and sword. Adam 00:41, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I disagree with some of Mustafaa and Mshonle's edits, but I don't class them with Zw's propaganda. But they all damage the previous balance of the article by dragging all this stuff into the opening section. Adam 02:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree that Humus has a clear point of view. However he is not trying to impose it on this article in the way Zw is trying to impose his. He is rather conducting an argument in the Talk page, as is proper. In any case, since Humus's pov is definitely the minority pov at Wikipedia, he may be excused some stridency in stating it. Adam 05:24, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This important point has been lost in all the edits. The reasons Jews see anti-Zionism as anti-Semitic has less to do with seeing "attacks on the existence of Israel as inherently anti-Semitic", and more to do with the fact that anti-Semites use the rhetoric of anti-Zionism to attack Jews, and the term "Zionist" as a code word for Jew. This fact inevitably muddies the waters in any pro-Zionism/anti-Zionism debate. Jayjg 14:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The article states "Others may object to Zionism on the belief that religion and state should never be combined." Is this true? One could argue that "Church" plays a greater "State" role in Israel than in most industrial democracies, and many (particularly secular Israelis) see the religious establishments has having far too much power in the country. Nevertheless, Israel itself is not a theocracy, and the Zionist movement was started and run by secular Zionists against the opposition of most Jewish religious leaders the time. As well, I would be hard pressed to find a country in which religion was not supported in some way by the State (communist China being the obvious large exception). Finally, the largest numbers and often most vehement "anti-Zionists" are Muslims who themselves support theocracies in their own states, but ironically also in Israel itself (of course this would be a Muslim theocracy, and Israel would be renamed Palestine).
Comments? Jayjg 14:58, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
A second question occurs to me; are there any other international movements like "anti-Zionism" which oppose a country based on the notion that Church and State should never be combined? Against Iran, for example, or Saudi Arabia, based on Church/State separation? If there are, then it might support the notion that this is a reason for anti-Zionism. If not, it would indicate that anti-Zionism is probably not truly based on an ideal of separation of Church and State, and more on opposition to a specific State. Jayjg 15:52, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Now it's confusing, long and wrong. How's this: The term "Zionism" was coined by an Austrian Jewish publicist Nathan Birnbaum in his journal Self Emancipation in 1890 and was defined as the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, or Zion. The First Zionist Congress led by Theodore Herzl adopted this idea as the Basel Program in 1897. [1], [2] Anti-Zionism can be opposition to these objectives, or to a specific implementation that meets these objectives. In some cases, anti-Zionism stems from anti-semitism, but not all anti-semites are anti-Zionist, nor can most anti-Zionist be considered anti-semitic. ← Humus sapiens← Talk 08:10, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ultimately, I don't care who writes it or how it is said, but this article has to mention the Palestinian treatment (call it "reported" if you have to, but there's no point denying their mistreatment) plus the church/state boundary discussed before in the opening. You collectively who edit me are silencing valid reasons and are making the article too POV. MShonle 12:25, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The introduction, as it stands, is concise, clear, and accurate; explains what anti-Zionism is, not all the many things it is not. Contrary to your claim, it makes no reference at all to anti-Zionism being equated with anti-Semitism; it does not even mentioned anti-Semitism. Your "two simple sentences" injected inaccuracy and confusion into the opening. The point that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are not synonymous is made clear in the very next section in the article, as is the point that much of the movement today in the West is fuelled by perceived mistreatment of the Palestinians. And your suggestion that "there's no point denying their mistreatment" again betrays your lack of NPOV; whether or not their treatment is "mistreatment" is, again, a matter of some debate. Jayjg 14:15, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
And just to backup my claim about the Orkut group this is from a group titled "Anti-Zionist Jews":
"We are Jews who believe Zionism was an understandable and forgiveable error, but one which continues at a great cost to the Palestinian people, who deserve to have full political enfranchisement, as political equals in a binational unitary, secular and democratic state; and it continues at great cost to the Jews, because it fosters renewed anti-Semitism and forces Jews in Israel to adopt postures that are contrary to centuries of Jewish values of pacificism, pluralism and cosmopolitinism; and it continues at great cost to the world as the origin of much of the conflict in the Middle East, which has led to world-wide terrorism, which has in turn led to repressive political prerogatives internationally. We are NOT self-hating Jews. We are just not narcissistic enough about our Jewishness to think that as Jews we have a special dispensation from God to deny a colonized people the political equality to which it is entitled."
If I wanted to make the article in my POV, I would probably say something much closer to the above. As it stands, the reasonable and englightening text I propose is a far cry from the above, just because being NPOV is important to me. So, I've demonstrated my point and will continue to remove any bias that acts like such inconviences don't exist. MShonle 23:51, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Changed "Israelis and Zionist Jews outside Israel" to "Israelis and Zionists outside Israel". The position stated was a Zionist position, not one held solely by Zionist Jews. It is worth remembering that there are more Zionist non-Jews outside Israel than Zionist Jews, particularly Zionist Christians, but also Zionists of all faiths and none, including even Muslims. Jayjg 21:42, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
These paragraphs seem confused; does anyone know what they are trying to say? Jayjg 22:03, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Aside from being difficult to define, it is seen by many as pejorative. Would it be better to simply remove the "ultras" and leave "Orthodox"? Alternatively, should the non-pejorative term "Haredi" be substituted? Jayjg 03:26, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
One might imagine that the term could be applied to groups or sects that are "more Orthodox than Orthodox" so to speak. This is the phenomenon noticed in the phrase "post-post-Modernist". Just because group A calls themselves Orthodox, does not mean that group B cannot be "more Orthodox". Now, that calls into question just what the hell Orthodox is meant in relation to, but that's a seperate issue. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:26, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
I have raised this issue with Orthodox Jewish friends. Their view is that the term "ultra-Orthodox" is based on a misunderstanding of Judaism by non-Jews, who use the faulty analogy of Christian denominations to understand variant traditions in Judaism. "Orthodox" (from the Greek, meaning "of the right teaching") is a Christian theological term, but there are no theological differences among Orthodox Jews, only differences of observance and ritual. What matters for Jews is not theology but rigorous observance. What non-Jews call "ultra-Orthodox" Jews are really only ultra-observant Jews, or members of Hasidic sects who are distinguished by traditions of dress etc. I therefore agree that the use of this term in an article which is not about Jewish theology is misleading and should be avoided. Adam 13:12, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't live in the US (for the 1000th time). Zero may well be right, I am reporting what observant Jewish friends tell me about the usage of the term. My point is that this article is not about Jewish theology or religious practice, and a contested term ought not to be used casually in other articles. Adam 16:13, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have deleted the term ultra-Orthodox throughout the article. I have deleted some of the weak and irrelevant material which has crept into the article since I last edited it. I have cut and revised the "Soviet anti-Zionism" section, most of which was irrelevant to this article and the rest full of tendentious statements and bad English. I have cut the Martin Luther King statement which seemed to be of no relevance at the point where it was inserted. Possibly it would be relevant somewhere else. But since the King "letter to an anti-Zionist" is now known to be a hoax it is probably better to leave him out altogether. Adam 22:01, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That may be so. I still think the King quote was of no particular relevance at the point where it appeared. Why is/was King an authority on whether anti-Zionism is the same as anti-Semitism or not? Adam 07:25, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Is the neutrality of this article still disputed? If so, by whom, and on what grounds? Jayjg 16:35, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Viajero disputes it.
I suspect that if Viajero disputes it, he will mention it himself. As for you, if you want to insert that statement of the Catholic Church, perhaps you could come back here to Talk: and explain where you think it belongs and why. Jayjg 19:24, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Zero has been saying for months that he disputes the neutrality of that section, yet he has ignored my repeated requests to explain exactly what he objects to, or to propose an alternative. It is not acceptable to maintain a disputed neutrality tag for months on end without doing anything to resolve the situation. Zero should put up or shut up. Unless he does so forthwith I will remove the tag. Adam 04:35, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Ok, so suggest another wording for the paragraph in question. I am not wedded to the existing wording, but I want to see an alternative. Adam 06:22, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Zero having once again failed to back up his complaints with any useful suggestions, I am removing the neutrality tag. Tagging articles and then making no effort to substantiate the complaint is just blackmail, and not acceptable. Adam 15:27, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I dispute it. Most of the objections I have to make have already been covered by MShonle, Zero and others but I will return with objections if absolutely necessary, since I am already occupied with keeping the Pro-pro-Zionist parade in check on other articles. -- Simonides 08:40, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It is not sufficient to state objctions. It is incumbent on people who dispute an article's accuracy or neutrality to propose alternatives. Otherwise I am apprently required to guess what you and Zero want the article to say, and then do your work for you by writing your alternative version. Unless I see some concrete proposals for alternative wordings of the paragraph in question, I will remove the tag again. Adam 09:15, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Go ahead, make my day. -- Zero 09:55, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am becoming very concerned about the behaviour of Simonides; he has already declared himself an enemy of "Zionist" contributions to Wikipedia, (although he has little idea of what this word really means; he uses this word as slur word.) Simonides's distortion of the content of the anti-Zionism article (and others), and his distortion of the views of Jewish groups, are straw-man attacks. As you know, no mainstream Jewish denomination, organization or group has ever claimed that a criticism of an Israeli policy or government is anti-Semitism; no on here on Wikipedia here is saying that either. Simonides' repeated claims to the contrary are Jew-baiting strawman attacks. They are not only factually false (and thus have no place in an encyclopedia), but will only serve to encourage open anti-Semitism. This isn't about a disagreement on how to phrase facts; this is about his manufactoring of false "facts" in order to hurt others whom he disagrees with. This behaviour is out of line. RK 13:39, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)
I not only understand, I thank you for summing up the discussion so astutely. Thank you for the clarity you bring! Cheers, Sam [ Spade] 07:26, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
As in most Arab lands, Jews in Palestine were dhimmi, and, as such, second class citizens who experienced periodic oppression and violence. Attempts to whitewash this are revisionism of the worst kind. My first edits were simply to remove the POV lines, and leave the factual material; now I have replaced them with more accurate statements which, I suspect, will not be at all pleasing to those who look at history through rose coloured glasses.
And by the way, there was no objection among Arabs to "other immigrant populations"; please find me any record of such. Jayjg 16:21, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"Second-class dhimmi inhabitants" is correct, and so is " Islam enjoins Muslim respect for Judaism as a fellow monotheistic religion". "Jews and Arabs had lived together in Palestine for centuries with little if any mutual conflict" is correct; "had experienced only sporadic violence directed at them by Arabs" may be correct, though I would like to see documentation of that. The original version (which, incidentally, I did not write) is factually correct.
"Jewish or any other immigrant state" is trivially correct; their opposition was to Jewish immigration, not to the existence of a Jewish community in Palestine. For a parallel, witness Algerian opposition to the pied-noirs' efforts. "Immigrant state" on its own would probably be a better wording than "Jewish state". - Mustafaa 17:51, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and "the majority and superior status of the Arab population" is incorrect; Palestinian nationalism joined Arab Christians and Muslims together. Nor is the use of the term " Palestinian" to refer to Arab Palestinians at all anachronistic; see that article. The idea that "Palestinian" was some sort of neologism is itself a piece of pro-Zionist revisionism, spread by the likes of Golda Meir. - Mustafaa 18:05, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Arab population was both Muslim and Christian - over 10% Christian, in fact, and an unknown number of Druzes - so yeah; the statement is not correct. The Arab population did not enjoy a superior status; at most, the Muslim population did. - Mustafaa 22:11, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Concerning the dhimmi status of Jews in Palestine, it is almost an irrelevant issue for this article because very few of the Zionist immigrants were dhimmis. Most of them were not Ottoman subjects and therefore, due to the concesssions known as the Capitulations, were under the protection of various foreign consols. The Jews resident already in Palestine before the main Zionist immigrations were a mixture of Ottoman subjects (mostly Sephardim) and foreigners. So some were dhimmis and some were not. In general, the Jewish Ottoman subjects did not support the Zionists and some openly sided with the Arabs against the Zionists (this should be mentioned in the Jewish anti-Zionism section). Many in the present Haredi community in Israel see themselves as representing an unbroken anti-Zionist (or at least non-Zionist) tradition stretching from the old Yishuv to themselves. -- Zero 15:38, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
One more comment, rather off-topic. The actual situation of a dhimmi depended very much on the whim of whoever was in charge at each moment. The difference between a kind ruler and a cruel one could literally be one of prosperity versus starvation. In this respect, Palestinian Jews fared better than most. With some exceptional periods they had lower taxes and fewer hassles. For example, the head (poll) tax was in theory imposed on every adult male at three rates according to income, but in practice was imposed only once per household at the lowest rate. An illustration of how the Jews saw their situation occured in the 1830s when the Ottomans were temporarily displaced by Egyptian invaders. The new ruler abolished the dhimmi status of Jews and Christians, instead imposing equal (but severe) taxes and obligations on everyone. These obligations included serving in the army. The Jews regarded this as a terrible disaster and demanded their previous status back again (eventually succeeding). This is not say that there were no bad times. Of course there were many (but let's not rely on known forgers like Joan Peters for our examples, eh?). -- Zero 15:38, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"Local nationalist narratives, outside of Palestinians, emphasize the idea of Israel as a threat to the nation (commonly citing extremist Israelis' dreams of a nation stretching "from the Nile to the Euphrates"). Among Palestinians, these emphasize other issues - such as the Palestinian refugee problem, and the fact that almost all the land that would form a prospective Palestinian state is either annexed by or controlled by Israel - and are best treated separately."
Who are the "extremist Israelis" who are cited as dreaming of a nation stretching "from the Nile to the Euphrates"? Also, what land is being referred to as "almost all the land that would form a prospective Palestinian state"? Jayjg 16:29, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
A quick Google search reveals such cases as: Lehi/ Stern [4]; Shmuel Neumann; Holyland Camping; Israel Eldad; [5]. Unsurprisingly, though, Arab sites tend to emphasize their voices more than Israeli ones.
And as for Lehi, see Jewish Virtual Library: - Mustafaa 21:38, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
As for the land, that is of course the British Mandate of Palestine. As far as I know, no Palestinian group today has any ambitions against Jordan. - Mustafaa 18:01, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think Mustafaa's recent edits to this article have improved it considerably. I don't always agree with Mustafaa but his presentation here of Arab attitudes to Zionism seems to me to be accurate and fair. I notice however that we are still waiting for a proposed alternative to the paragraph which Zero claims to find so offensive. I have given up waiting for Zero to act on his repeated promises to propose an alternative. Perhaps Mustafaa could have a go. Adam 18:12, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes he is knowledgeable, but his attitude towards this artcile has been completely negative and obstructionist for months, for reasons I don't understand. I would like to see a proposed alternative to that paragraph from somebody - I don't care who. Adam 06:48, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have little time to work on this article, but I'll make a start (despite and not because of Adam's bad manners). The Faisal-Weizmann agreement is placed in a passage that starts "Towards the beginning of Zionist settlement in Palestine", but in fact it was a whole generation later. The quotes give detail beyond what is necessary here since there is a whole article on the subject. Anyway, it has to be separated from the narrative of the Palestinian situation. In Palestine there was never any significant welcoming of Zionism; that is just a myth of the traditional Zionist narrative. There was opposition right from the start. Standard works on this subject include Mandel, The Arabs and Zionism before WWI, and the books of Muslih, Porath, and Kimmerling&Migdal. However, outside Palestine there were indeed a few Arabs, such as Faisal, who for a time saw Zionism as an opportunity rather than as a threat. See Faisal-Weizmann Agreement for a good article on this.
Here are a few paragraphs. They are very rough and I don't have time (today) to work them into the existing text.
The next thing to write about is the 1936-1939 Arab revolt against the Zionists and the British. Missing but important are the role of the "notables" in Arab society, the role of the British, and probably other things.
That's it for today. -- Zero 15:12, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I see what you mean - the missing link is that Christians were also the first advocates of non-Ottoman states in general (Levantine Christians were the main founders of both pan-Arabism and pan-Syrianism) - thus becoming nationalists in Ottoman times already - and were therefore natural early adaptors (or, more accurately, conceivers) of other localist ideologies. 1) is thus not totally true, although nationalist movements remained quite small under the Ottomans. - Mustafaa 18:31, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Jayjig, your point (1) is not what I intended. The Palestinians had been under foreign rulers for many centuries and the question has to be asked why the Zionists were not seen as just the next foreign ruler to come along. The main reason is that the Zionists wanted to populate and not just rule, but another part of it was that the Zionists were not Muslims. Since most Palestinians were Muslims, they preferred to be ruled by other Muslims. It was not a point about nationalism. I'll try to clarify the passage. -- Zero 11:33, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"While almost all groups agree in regarding Israel's creation as an injustice to begin with, some regard the 1949 armistice lines as a fait accompli which it would be impossible or unjust to attempt to reverse given the massive Israeli presence there. For instance, many Palestinian refugee "right of return" groups (e.g. Al-Awda) emphasize that they would be willing to live under Israeli rule, and would not wish to dislodge too many Israelis. In such cases, the goal is usually restoration to the 1949 armistice lines, with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip."
What is meant by many Palestinian refugee "right of return" groups and "would not wish to dislodge too many Israelis"? Jayjg 18:31, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Al-Awda is a British group, not a Palestinian group (although it presumably includes British Palestinians). It advocates the "return" of all 5 million Palestinians to "their homes" in what is now Israel - even though the great majority of these 5 million have never set foot in Israel. This would of course "dislodge" most Jewish Israelis, both physically (to accommodate several million people in a very small country) and politically (in that such a state would no longer have a Jewish majority, and would thus cease to be Israel). The demand for the "right of return" for all the descendents of the 1948 refugees (most of the original refugees being now dead) is thus a covert demand for the destruction of Israel, which is why Israel will never accept it. Adam 13:14, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I presume it is a transliteration of Al-Awda ("the return") which is a Palestinian organization whose mailing address on their home page is in California. -- Zero 13:36, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Ah, I see - the website I found was British. I guess they are an international group, but the substantive point is the same. Adam 14:40, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
If al-Awda is representative of "RoR" groups, then the statement is bunk - it's quite clear from their website that they advocate the abolition of Israel. The statment should therefore be deleted. Adam 15:45, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The present wording is unacceptably close to unintelligible. However, Adam's comments are outrageous. This article should state what the opinions of important parties are whether we agree with them or not. -- Zero 01:48, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I agree, but I am unable to find a statement at the al-Awda website which says that the 5 million Palestinians (al-Awda's figure), if resettled in what is now Israel, "would be willing to live under Israeli rule." In fact it says "We campaign for the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland." It is obvious that if 5 million Palestinians were resettled in Israel, they plus the Arab Israelis would outnumber the Jewish Israelis, and thus the question of "Israeli rule" would become meaningless. Can someone show where al-Awda has said that the resettled Palestinians would be willing to live under Israeli rule? Adam 06:54, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
O.K., here's the paragaph in question:
While almost all groups agree in regarding Israel's creation as an injustice to begin with, some regard the 1949 armistice lines as a fait accompli which it would be impossible or unjust to attempt to reverse given the massive Israeli presence there. For instance, many Palestinian refugee "right of return" groups (e.g. Al-Awda) emphasize that they would be willing to live under Israeli rule, and would not wish to dislodge too many Israelis. In such cases, the goal is usually restoration to the 1949 armistice lines, with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
If someone can make it intelligible and factual, it might be worth putting back in. Jayjg 19:56, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Um, why was this article protected? Jayjg 03:20, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Concerning this sentence:
I agree with the first part, but I don't think the second part is quite right. It does not blur the distinction between anti-Zionist and anti-Semitism, but rather it makes it harder to tell who is which. Not the same thing. If I say "I am a woman", it does not blur the distinction between men and women, it just makes it harder for you to realise that I am a man. -- Zero 11:37, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The people who blur the distinction are Zionists who want spin their opposition to look like anti-semites to gain political leverage! Sam [ Spade] 07:28, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Maybe there is some of that, but its generally pro-zionists who blur the distinction in order to smear (usually left wing) anti-zionists as anti-semites. Leastways thats what I've noticed. I saw a documentary where they explained what "anti-semite"ment by showing pictures of anti-zionist left wing protesters w signs comparing Israeli policies to those of nazi germany. This was said to be textbook anti-semitism. I beg to differ. Sam [ Spade] 16:56, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It was a nightline (on ABC) episode maybe three years ago, so I won't be able to reference it very well ;) On the other hand I am quite certain there are dozens of sources certifying that some consider the comparing of anything done by the state of Israel to anything done by Nazi Germany to be anti-Semitic. Considering this is a favorite tactic of protesters against certain Israeli excesses, it paints w a rather broad brush a group (left-wing anti-Zionist protesters in the west) who are largely non-anti-Semitic (in my crude estimation anyhow). As far as all this code word for Jew stuff, maybe. I'd like to see some evidence. The anti-semite web sites/propaganda materials I have seen just come out and blame the Jew, w no mincing about w code words. I remember when this "Zionist = code for Jew among anti-Semites" subject came up before on Lyndon LaRouche. I had a bit of trouble finding actual evidence for it, but I did come up w a couple links, [9] and [10], but I don't know if we call what these guys are doing "code words". Their pretty darn obvious as anti-semites, a far cry from some long haired anti-global/anti-war/anti-Zionist "oppression" protestor who waves his "Sharon is a nazi" sign until the police knock it out of his hands and drag him off. I don't think it helps anybody other than the real nazi's to give these very dissimilar Anti-Zionists the same "anti-Semite" label. Sam [ Spade] 17:14, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sam, your arbitrary removal of the sentence has been noted and corrected. If you have any rational arguments against its inclusion, please bring them here. Jayjg 21:39, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Have a look, and do try to adjust your tone, oh mighty one (peace be upon him ;) Sam [ Spade] 22:36, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Lets see some real evidence for this, other than half-crazed anti-semite propoganda. Can't you understand that they prob hate zionism as well as Jews? Probably because zionism is Jewish? Also because some nazi-types are trying to make friends w islamists, re:"he who is the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Sam [ Spade] 22:44, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
OK, so some evidence for "code word for Jew"? Sam [ Spade] 05:57, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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Would someone please explain how the following in the article makes sense:
A distinction also needs to be drawn between the anti-Zionism of those who actively seek the physical destruction of Israel and the death or expulsion of its Jewish inhabitants, and the anti-Zionism of those who argue that Israel ought to be voluntarily transformed into a state in which Jews and Palestinians live together as equals. While committed Zionists may see little validity to this distinction, it is a real one.
How is it anti-Zionist to support the expansion of Israel to occupy all of Palestine in a state incorporating both Jews and Arabs? That appears to be an objective of at least some Zionist groups, including the pre-independence groups which wanted all of Palestine for Israel, and it seems odd to describe as an anti-Zionist position something which includes those clearly pro-Zionist views.
Is it the policy of Israel today that Jews and Arabs are NOT equal within Israel? If it isn't, the equality portion also seems not to be useful, since it would be describing the official policy of Israel as anti-Zionist. Jamesday 10:19, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Anti-Zionism" logically has to mean "opposed to the objectives of Zionism," and there is no doubt that the objective of the Zionist movement today is the defence of Israel as a Jewish state, a state which Jews control by virtue of being a large majority of the population. It is true that Jews and Arabs are for most (though not all) purposes equal in Israel, but that is because Arabs are a 10% minority and they don't jeopardise the Jews' majority status. A reunited pre-1948 Palestine would have only a very narrow Jewish majority, and if the 1948 refugees and their descendents were allowed to return it would have an Arab majority. This is clearly contrary to the current objectives of Zionism, and to propose it is therefore in that sense "anti-Zionist." This is not to make any comment on the merits of the proposal. Adam 10:41, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Surely "While committed Zionists may see little validity to this distinction, it is a real one" is rather insulting to the intelligence of Zionists? I'm kind of curious - do you have any quotes from people who find it difficult to distinguish these two diametrically opposed positions? - Mustafaa 23:23, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
"Israteen", by the way, is a combination of "Israel" and "Filasteen". I suppose some would still interpret this as calling for the "destruction" of Israel, but clearly not for, as the article put it, the "physical destruction" of it. - Mustafaa 08:14, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
The EUMC recently issued a two reports on anti-semitism in europe and whether or not there are links to anti-zionism. suprised that they are not referenced here. http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/index.php?fuseaction=content.dsp_cat_content&catid=1
How are they not ultra-Orthodox? That goes against everything else I've read about them. - Mustafaa 18:19, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Since zionism is dealing only with the zionist POV, this article should be dealing only with the anti-zionist POV.
How about an introduction like this
Anti-Zionism is a term that has been used to describe several very different political and religious points of view, both historically and in current debates. All these points of view have in common some form of opposition to Zionism.
Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination. It follows that anti-zionism is a form of anti-racism."
This is of course not NPOV, but it states the POV of the anti-zionists, just like zionism simply presents the POV of the zionists as the only truth with no opposition. Should this be a fair solution to the problem? Zw 22:37, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You just don't get it, do you? Adam 02:24, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think the wikipedia as it stands is a little too biased toward the Zionist point of view. (For example, following the Zionist page it would lead you to beleive intellectuals like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn held their beliefs only because they were "socialist liberals." Ha, as if that was the only intellectual opposition to Zionism. And as if there weren't Jewish Israeli citizens who also opposed Zionism.) I really only see this being resolved by separate articles from the moderate-Zionist and from the moderate-Anti-Zionist. Any extreme views do not belong, but naturally people are going to disagree on this one issue. I just don't want every article to sound like it was written from the POV of the ADL. MShonle 07:28, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Neither Zionism nor Anti-Zionism are written from any point of view. They are encyclopaedia articles, which present facts as objectively as possible. I am happy to debate the accuracy of any fact presented in either article, or any fact which anyone feels has been omitted from either article. But kindly spare us any more of this crap about what point of view the articles represent or ought to represent. Adam 10:17, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have no idea what that means. Adam 04:55, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have a PhD in history, so kindly don't patronise me. I believe it is possible to write an objective and truthful article about both Zionism and anti-Zionism, and I believe these articles come fairly close to being that. I am happy to debate specific issues. I am not interested in a philosophical debate about the meaning of truth etc. Adam 06:52, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The article makes no such claim. It says that anti-Zionist views are widely and increasingly held in most western countries. Adam 07:17, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Adam Carr wrote: "I have a PhD in history"
I feel this article is quite biased. It does not really represent anti zionism in a neutral fashion. For example, while the article states that anti zionism is not anti semitic, it gives an example of a soviet cartoon which clearly implies the opposite, why? The links I have added are key texts and articles for western leftist anti zionists....please do not remove them.
I put in the above wording because I think it would really clarify things. I believe that most people I know who object to Zionism would not object to it if the Palestinians didn't have to pay the cost. For example, if Jewish settlers wanted to occupy a previously uninhabitated land, I doubt there would be any objection to Zionism at all. However, the implementation of Zionism is not only that there should be a Jewish state, but that is should be in Palestine. That is the critical difference, and it's a disservice to those who oppose zionism to act like they only oppose the abstract idea of it, when in reality virtually all oppose the specific way it's been done. MShonle 09:27, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I changed the term "disapproval of the treatment" to "disapproval of the perceived treatment", as more NPOV. Jayjg
The current intro already includes these concerns, in more eloquently-stated form. It says that Zionism is either support for a Jewish homeland, or support for the State of Israel as the Jewish homeland. Anti-Zionism, therefore, is opposition to either of these objectives. It is not necessary to redundantly say "or Anti-Zionism can be opposition to a specific implementation", because the State of Israel is a specific implementation. -- Delirium 18:22, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
This article is now being turned into the same swamp of slogans and propaganda as all the other Israeli-Palestinian etc articles at Wikipedia. This is mostly Zw's fault. I am very annoyed about this, since weeks of work went into getting it into a state which was both intellectually respectable and acceptable to all the people then working on it. I don't have time at present to respond to all the current damage being done to the article, not do I enjoy redoing work which I have already done once. I may just take it off my watchlist and let it degenerate into the same useless mess as most other related articles. On the other hand I may return and purge all this stuff with fire and sword. Adam 00:41, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I disagree with some of Mustafaa and Mshonle's edits, but I don't class them with Zw's propaganda. But they all damage the previous balance of the article by dragging all this stuff into the opening section. Adam 02:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree that Humus has a clear point of view. However he is not trying to impose it on this article in the way Zw is trying to impose his. He is rather conducting an argument in the Talk page, as is proper. In any case, since Humus's pov is definitely the minority pov at Wikipedia, he may be excused some stridency in stating it. Adam 05:24, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This important point has been lost in all the edits. The reasons Jews see anti-Zionism as anti-Semitic has less to do with seeing "attacks on the existence of Israel as inherently anti-Semitic", and more to do with the fact that anti-Semites use the rhetoric of anti-Zionism to attack Jews, and the term "Zionist" as a code word for Jew. This fact inevitably muddies the waters in any pro-Zionism/anti-Zionism debate. Jayjg 14:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The article states "Others may object to Zionism on the belief that religion and state should never be combined." Is this true? One could argue that "Church" plays a greater "State" role in Israel than in most industrial democracies, and many (particularly secular Israelis) see the religious establishments has having far too much power in the country. Nevertheless, Israel itself is not a theocracy, and the Zionist movement was started and run by secular Zionists against the opposition of most Jewish religious leaders the time. As well, I would be hard pressed to find a country in which religion was not supported in some way by the State (communist China being the obvious large exception). Finally, the largest numbers and often most vehement "anti-Zionists" are Muslims who themselves support theocracies in their own states, but ironically also in Israel itself (of course this would be a Muslim theocracy, and Israel would be renamed Palestine).
Comments? Jayjg 14:58, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
A second question occurs to me; are there any other international movements like "anti-Zionism" which oppose a country based on the notion that Church and State should never be combined? Against Iran, for example, or Saudi Arabia, based on Church/State separation? If there are, then it might support the notion that this is a reason for anti-Zionism. If not, it would indicate that anti-Zionism is probably not truly based on an ideal of separation of Church and State, and more on opposition to a specific State. Jayjg 15:52, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Now it's confusing, long and wrong. How's this: The term "Zionism" was coined by an Austrian Jewish publicist Nathan Birnbaum in his journal Self Emancipation in 1890 and was defined as the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, or Zion. The First Zionist Congress led by Theodore Herzl adopted this idea as the Basel Program in 1897. [1], [2] Anti-Zionism can be opposition to these objectives, or to a specific implementation that meets these objectives. In some cases, anti-Zionism stems from anti-semitism, but not all anti-semites are anti-Zionist, nor can most anti-Zionist be considered anti-semitic. ← Humus sapiens← Talk 08:10, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ultimately, I don't care who writes it or how it is said, but this article has to mention the Palestinian treatment (call it "reported" if you have to, but there's no point denying their mistreatment) plus the church/state boundary discussed before in the opening. You collectively who edit me are silencing valid reasons and are making the article too POV. MShonle 12:25, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The introduction, as it stands, is concise, clear, and accurate; explains what anti-Zionism is, not all the many things it is not. Contrary to your claim, it makes no reference at all to anti-Zionism being equated with anti-Semitism; it does not even mentioned anti-Semitism. Your "two simple sentences" injected inaccuracy and confusion into the opening. The point that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are not synonymous is made clear in the very next section in the article, as is the point that much of the movement today in the West is fuelled by perceived mistreatment of the Palestinians. And your suggestion that "there's no point denying their mistreatment" again betrays your lack of NPOV; whether or not their treatment is "mistreatment" is, again, a matter of some debate. Jayjg 14:15, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
And just to backup my claim about the Orkut group this is from a group titled "Anti-Zionist Jews":
"We are Jews who believe Zionism was an understandable and forgiveable error, but one which continues at a great cost to the Palestinian people, who deserve to have full political enfranchisement, as political equals in a binational unitary, secular and democratic state; and it continues at great cost to the Jews, because it fosters renewed anti-Semitism and forces Jews in Israel to adopt postures that are contrary to centuries of Jewish values of pacificism, pluralism and cosmopolitinism; and it continues at great cost to the world as the origin of much of the conflict in the Middle East, which has led to world-wide terrorism, which has in turn led to repressive political prerogatives internationally. We are NOT self-hating Jews. We are just not narcissistic enough about our Jewishness to think that as Jews we have a special dispensation from God to deny a colonized people the political equality to which it is entitled."
If I wanted to make the article in my POV, I would probably say something much closer to the above. As it stands, the reasonable and englightening text I propose is a far cry from the above, just because being NPOV is important to me. So, I've demonstrated my point and will continue to remove any bias that acts like such inconviences don't exist. MShonle 23:51, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Changed "Israelis and Zionist Jews outside Israel" to "Israelis and Zionists outside Israel". The position stated was a Zionist position, not one held solely by Zionist Jews. It is worth remembering that there are more Zionist non-Jews outside Israel than Zionist Jews, particularly Zionist Christians, but also Zionists of all faiths and none, including even Muslims. Jayjg 21:42, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
These paragraphs seem confused; does anyone know what they are trying to say? Jayjg 22:03, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Aside from being difficult to define, it is seen by many as pejorative. Would it be better to simply remove the "ultras" and leave "Orthodox"? Alternatively, should the non-pejorative term "Haredi" be substituted? Jayjg 03:26, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
One might imagine that the term could be applied to groups or sects that are "more Orthodox than Orthodox" so to speak. This is the phenomenon noticed in the phrase "post-post-Modernist". Just because group A calls themselves Orthodox, does not mean that group B cannot be "more Orthodox". Now, that calls into question just what the hell Orthodox is meant in relation to, but that's a seperate issue. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:26, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
I have raised this issue with Orthodox Jewish friends. Their view is that the term "ultra-Orthodox" is based on a misunderstanding of Judaism by non-Jews, who use the faulty analogy of Christian denominations to understand variant traditions in Judaism. "Orthodox" (from the Greek, meaning "of the right teaching") is a Christian theological term, but there are no theological differences among Orthodox Jews, only differences of observance and ritual. What matters for Jews is not theology but rigorous observance. What non-Jews call "ultra-Orthodox" Jews are really only ultra-observant Jews, or members of Hasidic sects who are distinguished by traditions of dress etc. I therefore agree that the use of this term in an article which is not about Jewish theology is misleading and should be avoided. Adam 13:12, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't live in the US (for the 1000th time). Zero may well be right, I am reporting what observant Jewish friends tell me about the usage of the term. My point is that this article is not about Jewish theology or religious practice, and a contested term ought not to be used casually in other articles. Adam 16:13, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have deleted the term ultra-Orthodox throughout the article. I have deleted some of the weak and irrelevant material which has crept into the article since I last edited it. I have cut and revised the "Soviet anti-Zionism" section, most of which was irrelevant to this article and the rest full of tendentious statements and bad English. I have cut the Martin Luther King statement which seemed to be of no relevance at the point where it was inserted. Possibly it would be relevant somewhere else. But since the King "letter to an anti-Zionist" is now known to be a hoax it is probably better to leave him out altogether. Adam 22:01, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That may be so. I still think the King quote was of no particular relevance at the point where it appeared. Why is/was King an authority on whether anti-Zionism is the same as anti-Semitism or not? Adam 07:25, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Is the neutrality of this article still disputed? If so, by whom, and on what grounds? Jayjg 16:35, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Viajero disputes it.
I suspect that if Viajero disputes it, he will mention it himself. As for you, if you want to insert that statement of the Catholic Church, perhaps you could come back here to Talk: and explain where you think it belongs and why. Jayjg 19:24, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Zero has been saying for months that he disputes the neutrality of that section, yet he has ignored my repeated requests to explain exactly what he objects to, or to propose an alternative. It is not acceptable to maintain a disputed neutrality tag for months on end without doing anything to resolve the situation. Zero should put up or shut up. Unless he does so forthwith I will remove the tag. Adam 04:35, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Ok, so suggest another wording for the paragraph in question. I am not wedded to the existing wording, but I want to see an alternative. Adam 06:22, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Zero having once again failed to back up his complaints with any useful suggestions, I am removing the neutrality tag. Tagging articles and then making no effort to substantiate the complaint is just blackmail, and not acceptable. Adam 15:27, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I dispute it. Most of the objections I have to make have already been covered by MShonle, Zero and others but I will return with objections if absolutely necessary, since I am already occupied with keeping the Pro-pro-Zionist parade in check on other articles. -- Simonides 08:40, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It is not sufficient to state objctions. It is incumbent on people who dispute an article's accuracy or neutrality to propose alternatives. Otherwise I am apprently required to guess what you and Zero want the article to say, and then do your work for you by writing your alternative version. Unless I see some concrete proposals for alternative wordings of the paragraph in question, I will remove the tag again. Adam 09:15, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Go ahead, make my day. -- Zero 09:55, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am becoming very concerned about the behaviour of Simonides; he has already declared himself an enemy of "Zionist" contributions to Wikipedia, (although he has little idea of what this word really means; he uses this word as slur word.) Simonides's distortion of the content of the anti-Zionism article (and others), and his distortion of the views of Jewish groups, are straw-man attacks. As you know, no mainstream Jewish denomination, organization or group has ever claimed that a criticism of an Israeli policy or government is anti-Semitism; no on here on Wikipedia here is saying that either. Simonides' repeated claims to the contrary are Jew-baiting strawman attacks. They are not only factually false (and thus have no place in an encyclopedia), but will only serve to encourage open anti-Semitism. This isn't about a disagreement on how to phrase facts; this is about his manufactoring of false "facts" in order to hurt others whom he disagrees with. This behaviour is out of line. RK 13:39, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)
I not only understand, I thank you for summing up the discussion so astutely. Thank you for the clarity you bring! Cheers, Sam [ Spade] 07:26, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
As in most Arab lands, Jews in Palestine were dhimmi, and, as such, second class citizens who experienced periodic oppression and violence. Attempts to whitewash this are revisionism of the worst kind. My first edits were simply to remove the POV lines, and leave the factual material; now I have replaced them with more accurate statements which, I suspect, will not be at all pleasing to those who look at history through rose coloured glasses.
And by the way, there was no objection among Arabs to "other immigrant populations"; please find me any record of such. Jayjg 16:21, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"Second-class dhimmi inhabitants" is correct, and so is " Islam enjoins Muslim respect for Judaism as a fellow monotheistic religion". "Jews and Arabs had lived together in Palestine for centuries with little if any mutual conflict" is correct; "had experienced only sporadic violence directed at them by Arabs" may be correct, though I would like to see documentation of that. The original version (which, incidentally, I did not write) is factually correct.
"Jewish or any other immigrant state" is trivially correct; their opposition was to Jewish immigration, not to the existence of a Jewish community in Palestine. For a parallel, witness Algerian opposition to the pied-noirs' efforts. "Immigrant state" on its own would probably be a better wording than "Jewish state". - Mustafaa 17:51, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and "the majority and superior status of the Arab population" is incorrect; Palestinian nationalism joined Arab Christians and Muslims together. Nor is the use of the term " Palestinian" to refer to Arab Palestinians at all anachronistic; see that article. The idea that "Palestinian" was some sort of neologism is itself a piece of pro-Zionist revisionism, spread by the likes of Golda Meir. - Mustafaa 18:05, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Arab population was both Muslim and Christian - over 10% Christian, in fact, and an unknown number of Druzes - so yeah; the statement is not correct. The Arab population did not enjoy a superior status; at most, the Muslim population did. - Mustafaa 22:11, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Concerning the dhimmi status of Jews in Palestine, it is almost an irrelevant issue for this article because very few of the Zionist immigrants were dhimmis. Most of them were not Ottoman subjects and therefore, due to the concesssions known as the Capitulations, were under the protection of various foreign consols. The Jews resident already in Palestine before the main Zionist immigrations were a mixture of Ottoman subjects (mostly Sephardim) and foreigners. So some were dhimmis and some were not. In general, the Jewish Ottoman subjects did not support the Zionists and some openly sided with the Arabs against the Zionists (this should be mentioned in the Jewish anti-Zionism section). Many in the present Haredi community in Israel see themselves as representing an unbroken anti-Zionist (or at least non-Zionist) tradition stretching from the old Yishuv to themselves. -- Zero 15:38, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
One more comment, rather off-topic. The actual situation of a dhimmi depended very much on the whim of whoever was in charge at each moment. The difference between a kind ruler and a cruel one could literally be one of prosperity versus starvation. In this respect, Palestinian Jews fared better than most. With some exceptional periods they had lower taxes and fewer hassles. For example, the head (poll) tax was in theory imposed on every adult male at three rates according to income, but in practice was imposed only once per household at the lowest rate. An illustration of how the Jews saw their situation occured in the 1830s when the Ottomans were temporarily displaced by Egyptian invaders. The new ruler abolished the dhimmi status of Jews and Christians, instead imposing equal (but severe) taxes and obligations on everyone. These obligations included serving in the army. The Jews regarded this as a terrible disaster and demanded their previous status back again (eventually succeeding). This is not say that there were no bad times. Of course there were many (but let's not rely on known forgers like Joan Peters for our examples, eh?). -- Zero 15:38, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"Local nationalist narratives, outside of Palestinians, emphasize the idea of Israel as a threat to the nation (commonly citing extremist Israelis' dreams of a nation stretching "from the Nile to the Euphrates"). Among Palestinians, these emphasize other issues - such as the Palestinian refugee problem, and the fact that almost all the land that would form a prospective Palestinian state is either annexed by or controlled by Israel - and are best treated separately."
Who are the "extremist Israelis" who are cited as dreaming of a nation stretching "from the Nile to the Euphrates"? Also, what land is being referred to as "almost all the land that would form a prospective Palestinian state"? Jayjg 16:29, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
A quick Google search reveals such cases as: Lehi/ Stern [4]; Shmuel Neumann; Holyland Camping; Israel Eldad; [5]. Unsurprisingly, though, Arab sites tend to emphasize their voices more than Israeli ones.
And as for Lehi, see Jewish Virtual Library: - Mustafaa 21:38, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
As for the land, that is of course the British Mandate of Palestine. As far as I know, no Palestinian group today has any ambitions against Jordan. - Mustafaa 18:01, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think Mustafaa's recent edits to this article have improved it considerably. I don't always agree with Mustafaa but his presentation here of Arab attitudes to Zionism seems to me to be accurate and fair. I notice however that we are still waiting for a proposed alternative to the paragraph which Zero claims to find so offensive. I have given up waiting for Zero to act on his repeated promises to propose an alternative. Perhaps Mustafaa could have a go. Adam 18:12, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes he is knowledgeable, but his attitude towards this artcile has been completely negative and obstructionist for months, for reasons I don't understand. I would like to see a proposed alternative to that paragraph from somebody - I don't care who. Adam 06:48, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have little time to work on this article, but I'll make a start (despite and not because of Adam's bad manners). The Faisal-Weizmann agreement is placed in a passage that starts "Towards the beginning of Zionist settlement in Palestine", but in fact it was a whole generation later. The quotes give detail beyond what is necessary here since there is a whole article on the subject. Anyway, it has to be separated from the narrative of the Palestinian situation. In Palestine there was never any significant welcoming of Zionism; that is just a myth of the traditional Zionist narrative. There was opposition right from the start. Standard works on this subject include Mandel, The Arabs and Zionism before WWI, and the books of Muslih, Porath, and Kimmerling&Migdal. However, outside Palestine there were indeed a few Arabs, such as Faisal, who for a time saw Zionism as an opportunity rather than as a threat. See Faisal-Weizmann Agreement for a good article on this.
Here are a few paragraphs. They are very rough and I don't have time (today) to work them into the existing text.
The next thing to write about is the 1936-1939 Arab revolt against the Zionists and the British. Missing but important are the role of the "notables" in Arab society, the role of the British, and probably other things.
That's it for today. -- Zero 15:12, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I see what you mean - the missing link is that Christians were also the first advocates of non-Ottoman states in general (Levantine Christians were the main founders of both pan-Arabism and pan-Syrianism) - thus becoming nationalists in Ottoman times already - and were therefore natural early adaptors (or, more accurately, conceivers) of other localist ideologies. 1) is thus not totally true, although nationalist movements remained quite small under the Ottomans. - Mustafaa 18:31, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Jayjig, your point (1) is not what I intended. The Palestinians had been under foreign rulers for many centuries and the question has to be asked why the Zionists were not seen as just the next foreign ruler to come along. The main reason is that the Zionists wanted to populate and not just rule, but another part of it was that the Zionists were not Muslims. Since most Palestinians were Muslims, they preferred to be ruled by other Muslims. It was not a point about nationalism. I'll try to clarify the passage. -- Zero 11:33, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"While almost all groups agree in regarding Israel's creation as an injustice to begin with, some regard the 1949 armistice lines as a fait accompli which it would be impossible or unjust to attempt to reverse given the massive Israeli presence there. For instance, many Palestinian refugee "right of return" groups (e.g. Al-Awda) emphasize that they would be willing to live under Israeli rule, and would not wish to dislodge too many Israelis. In such cases, the goal is usually restoration to the 1949 armistice lines, with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip."
What is meant by many Palestinian refugee "right of return" groups and "would not wish to dislodge too many Israelis"? Jayjg 18:31, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Al-Awda is a British group, not a Palestinian group (although it presumably includes British Palestinians). It advocates the "return" of all 5 million Palestinians to "their homes" in what is now Israel - even though the great majority of these 5 million have never set foot in Israel. This would of course "dislodge" most Jewish Israelis, both physically (to accommodate several million people in a very small country) and politically (in that such a state would no longer have a Jewish majority, and would thus cease to be Israel). The demand for the "right of return" for all the descendents of the 1948 refugees (most of the original refugees being now dead) is thus a covert demand for the destruction of Israel, which is why Israel will never accept it. Adam 13:14, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I presume it is a transliteration of Al-Awda ("the return") which is a Palestinian organization whose mailing address on their home page is in California. -- Zero 13:36, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Ah, I see - the website I found was British. I guess they are an international group, but the substantive point is the same. Adam 14:40, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
If al-Awda is representative of "RoR" groups, then the statement is bunk - it's quite clear from their website that they advocate the abolition of Israel. The statment should therefore be deleted. Adam 15:45, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The present wording is unacceptably close to unintelligible. However, Adam's comments are outrageous. This article should state what the opinions of important parties are whether we agree with them or not. -- Zero 01:48, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I agree, but I am unable to find a statement at the al-Awda website which says that the 5 million Palestinians (al-Awda's figure), if resettled in what is now Israel, "would be willing to live under Israeli rule." In fact it says "We campaign for the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland." It is obvious that if 5 million Palestinians were resettled in Israel, they plus the Arab Israelis would outnumber the Jewish Israelis, and thus the question of "Israeli rule" would become meaningless. Can someone show where al-Awda has said that the resettled Palestinians would be willing to live under Israeli rule? Adam 06:54, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
O.K., here's the paragaph in question:
While almost all groups agree in regarding Israel's creation as an injustice to begin with, some regard the 1949 armistice lines as a fait accompli which it would be impossible or unjust to attempt to reverse given the massive Israeli presence there. For instance, many Palestinian refugee "right of return" groups (e.g. Al-Awda) emphasize that they would be willing to live under Israeli rule, and would not wish to dislodge too many Israelis. In such cases, the goal is usually restoration to the 1949 armistice lines, with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
If someone can make it intelligible and factual, it might be worth putting back in. Jayjg 19:56, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Um, why was this article protected? Jayjg 03:20, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Concerning this sentence:
I agree with the first part, but I don't think the second part is quite right. It does not blur the distinction between anti-Zionist and anti-Semitism, but rather it makes it harder to tell who is which. Not the same thing. If I say "I am a woman", it does not blur the distinction between men and women, it just makes it harder for you to realise that I am a man. -- Zero 11:37, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The people who blur the distinction are Zionists who want spin their opposition to look like anti-semites to gain political leverage! Sam [ Spade] 07:28, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Maybe there is some of that, but its generally pro-zionists who blur the distinction in order to smear (usually left wing) anti-zionists as anti-semites. Leastways thats what I've noticed. I saw a documentary where they explained what "anti-semite"ment by showing pictures of anti-zionist left wing protesters w signs comparing Israeli policies to those of nazi germany. This was said to be textbook anti-semitism. I beg to differ. Sam [ Spade] 16:56, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It was a nightline (on ABC) episode maybe three years ago, so I won't be able to reference it very well ;) On the other hand I am quite certain there are dozens of sources certifying that some consider the comparing of anything done by the state of Israel to anything done by Nazi Germany to be anti-Semitic. Considering this is a favorite tactic of protesters against certain Israeli excesses, it paints w a rather broad brush a group (left-wing anti-Zionist protesters in the west) who are largely non-anti-Semitic (in my crude estimation anyhow). As far as all this code word for Jew stuff, maybe. I'd like to see some evidence. The anti-semite web sites/propaganda materials I have seen just come out and blame the Jew, w no mincing about w code words. I remember when this "Zionist = code for Jew among anti-Semites" subject came up before on Lyndon LaRouche. I had a bit of trouble finding actual evidence for it, but I did come up w a couple links, [9] and [10], but I don't know if we call what these guys are doing "code words". Their pretty darn obvious as anti-semites, a far cry from some long haired anti-global/anti-war/anti-Zionist "oppression" protestor who waves his "Sharon is a nazi" sign until the police knock it out of his hands and drag him off. I don't think it helps anybody other than the real nazi's to give these very dissimilar Anti-Zionists the same "anti-Semite" label. Sam [ Spade] 17:14, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sam, your arbitrary removal of the sentence has been noted and corrected. If you have any rational arguments against its inclusion, please bring them here. Jayjg 21:39, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Have a look, and do try to adjust your tone, oh mighty one (peace be upon him ;) Sam [ Spade] 22:36, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Lets see some real evidence for this, other than half-crazed anti-semite propoganda. Can't you understand that they prob hate zionism as well as Jews? Probably because zionism is Jewish? Also because some nazi-types are trying to make friends w islamists, re:"he who is the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Sam [ Spade] 22:44, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
OK, so some evidence for "code word for Jew"? Sam [ Spade] 05:57, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)