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That's clearly the most bias and one-sided article I ever saw in Wikipedia. In which century are your guys living? But if you really think this German bashing page is necessary, then why not creating a detailed article about Polish pogroms on Jews? Especially the ones that happened after 1945? Or about the Polish aggression against Czechoslovakia in 1939? It’s like you want to continue with propaganda and nationalism like nothing has changed since 1945. Grow up and get a life.
Alex
I had always liked
Frederick the Great's "l'audace, l'audace, tojours l'audace!" I'm shocked that this otherwise liberal and forward-thinking gentleman treated Poles that badly - and it sounds like it was some kind of personal vendetta, not just the business of acquiring the Silesian coal mines. I'll never say "l'audace etc." again -- and it was one of my favorite quotes! Apologies for posting it on Halibutt's userpage - I honestly didn't know at the time! --
Jpbrenna
03:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what's going on in your minds my beloved Poles! I read the article and I have to say that all of it is completely propaganda. You ever been in Germany? 2 million Poles are living here without any great trouble. They are integrated like no other national minority. When you talk about history you maybe right, but when you bring up all the old arguments you can't describe today’s Germany. EVERY single argument in your article was a lie. This is Anti- German and nothing else. You can do better, and you should, cause with things like that in mind good relationships cant be established. We are neighbours, if you like it or not, and we have to life together. The problem is, that you say what you heard, and you hear what you say – and all of this is from Polish sources and they are mainly full of nationalism. Yes you been victims in the past, but you did some wrong things too. Try to read neutral stuff from USA or England and redefine your standpoint. I tried to answer on that article, but than I decided to erase it, cause there is no diffrent way to handle this lies. Greetings from Germany, Volker
"Poles are living here without any great trouble. They are integrated like no other national minority" Poles aren't reckognised in Germany as national minority, despite the fact that some lived there for generations.-- Molobo 12:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"I would warn against identifying Molobo's and Witkacy's POV, for example, with the general public in Poland" Hmmm...so far I haven't expressed any POV, from where do you know my POV towards this matters ? Anyway parties expressing criticism of modern German attitude towards war (PO,PiS,LPR,Samoobrona,PSL) have together over circa 70 % of votes in public surveys.
"EVERY single argument in your article was a lie." Please point to arguments you consider lies.-- Molobo 12:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"Yes you been victims in the past, but you did some wrong things too" What wrong things have Poles done to Nazi Germany, and Prussia to be treated like animals meant to be eradicated ?-- Molobo 12:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"I have absolutely no way of knowing your POV about Germans, liberal Polish journalists of Jewish descent, homosexuals and other underlings... :^) " Exactly.I am glad you are coming to your senses Thorsten.Several later points of your post are wrong of course but this is not importante to the topic.-- Molobo 12:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I think its waste of time to educate fanatics, but I decided to answer the main lies of your article. Everybody who reads your stuff can see that this is caused by inferior complex, and you paint a picture about yourself with stuff like that, not about my country. And now to the facts:
1. Its not forbidden to teach, learn or use Polish language. 2. You can use any kind of language in Germany, cause this is a free country. 3. Harald Schmidt is a comedian, and he tells jokes for living. He makes jokes about everything. He didn't became awards for being anti- Polish, but for being funny. 4. There are jokes about Poland in German society, but there are much more jokes about Holland, and I never heard them cry like you do. By the way, I have friends from Poland and they told me some jokes used against Germans and they where rude too, but even funny - that’s the way humour works. Maybe the main problem is that you don’t have any sense of humour. 5. Go to wich war you like nobody cares. 6. Nobody in Germany says that Poland started the war, cause we know well about history - it's on you now to learn something about Germany today! 7. We know even about the 5 million Poles that lost their life’s during WWII, and we know that this was around 20 % of the population - this was terribly wrong, and we apologized for that with deep respect for the victims! 8. Erika Steinbach isn't a famous politician nor is she popular. In fact she isn't a politician at all. 9. You don't know anything about history, so don't try to teach it. 8. This article is anti- German and it doesn't help in establishing good relations between our nations. 10. Writing and reading of articles like that can cause some anti- Polonism
From now on I take your article as a evidence of bad taste and strange humour. In difference to you I don’t blame your nation for this stuff, cause sillyness doesn’t know borders or nationalities. Greetings from Germany to your private LaLaLand, Volker
This article does absolutely not describe the truth. My parents for example are polish, and they tought me the polish language without any problems. I myself am studying Polish at a german university. I also know a lot of people, who are of german origin and try to learn Polish. By the way, have you (the auhtor of this article) ever been to cities like Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg, and so on? If you have been there, you may have realized, that the most spoken foreign language besides Turkish and Russian is Polish. So speaking polish in the public is no problem here! I invite you to come to Germany and see with your own eyes, that the "facts" mentioned in this article are all lies.
By the way, Pope John Paul II., who was of polish Origin, did speak perfectly well german and very often came to our country as a guest. He always had a warm welcome here! Micha.
Ten Artykul absolutnie nie opisuje prawdy. Moje rodzice na przyklad pochodza z Polski. Uczylem sie od nich mowic po polsku i nigdy nie zauwazylem, ze moje rodzice cierpili pod jakichkolwiek represiach. Ja osobiscie studiuje jezyka Polskiego na niemieckim uniwersytecie i na zajeciach spotykam wiele niemcow, ktore z wlasnej woli ucza sie jezyka Polskiego. Czy ten autor tego artykulu kiedys byl w miastach jak n.p. Frankfurt, Hamburg albo Berlin? Gdyby on byl tam, to by zrealizowal, ze -oprocz jezyka Tureckiego i Ruskiego- jezyk Polski jest jeden z najczesciej slyszanych jezykow obcych w Niemczech. To znaczy, ze mozna uzywac jezyka polskiego bez problemu. Serdecznie zapraszam was wszystkich do Niemczech, zebyscie zobaczyli na wlasne oczy, ze te oznaczane "Fakty" nie opisuja warunki panujace w Niemczech! Pamientajcie, ze Jan Pawel II. nie tylko bezblednie mowil po niemiecku, ale zawze chetnie przyjechal do nas, do Niemczech! Micha.
Ale to napewno nie dla tego, ze on byl Polakiem, tylko ze jego opinia byla w pewnych politycznych kwesiach, n.p. kontrola urodzen,rola kobiet w Kosciele, Ekumeny (jak mozna odprawiac msze sw. z komunia RAZEM z ksiedzem Kosciola ewangelickiego?) itd. byla bardzo radykalna. Po za tym jestem o 100 % pewnym, ze w polskich gazetach lub na polskich stron internetowych tesz istnieja karykatury Papierza Benedikta XIV. alias Georg Kardinal Ratzinger! Micha.
A wiesz co to jest: Schwarzer Afghane? Moskau Inkasso? Russenschleuder? Coffee Shop? W tym artykule ( http://www.n24.de/politik/inland/index.php/a2004090916552992331) to Slowo "Polenstrich" jest uzywane jako synonymus, ktore okresla miejsce, gdzie nielegalne pracownicy szukaja Pracy ("Schwarzarbeit"). Gdy uzywasz takie Przyklady, to prosze opisuj, w jakim kontekscie oni sa uzywane. "Strich" -wiadomo- czesto opisuje miejsca, gdzie profesionalne dziewczyny sprzedaja swoje cialo. ALE: To Slowo w tym kontekscie opisuje miejsca, na ktorym nielegalne pracownicy szukaja pracy (np. jako Mechanik). ""Polenstrich" heißt die Institution, aber schon lange versuchen hier auch Tagelöhner aus der Slowakei, aus Rumänien oder der Ukraine ihr Glück. Je weiter östlich das Heimatland, desto geringer der Stundenlohn. Weißrussen arbeiten ab 80 Cent.". W tym artykule tesz jest opisane, ze tam sa nie tylko Polacy, ale i Czesi, Rumunczycy, Ukrainczycy, idt. To Slowo "Polenstrich" istnieje, bo po 1989. Roku wiekszosc Pracownikow nielegalnych, ktore szukali pracy w takim miejscu, pochodzili z Polski.
Even if some people in this forum do not like it, I have to tell you about another personal experience I made. On April this year I worked for a few days as a Volonteer at the Ravensbrück Concentration Camp. I had to take care of a Group (about 250 People) of polish victims of this camp, who came here for the celebrations of the 60th Anniversary of the freeing of this camp by the Red Army. I've talked to many of these people, and I asked them, if they still feel something like hate for the Germans. Over 80% of them answered with no! The Victims of these camps, and of course of the whole WW2 are the only ones, who are allowed to blame our grandfathers for what they did! They were the ones who really suffered! One of the Women (it was a women's camp) answered me: "Dlugo w tym miejscu cierpilam, dlugo musialam sie po tym leczycz, ale swoim dzieciom zal nie uczylam!" (I suffered for a long time in this place, I had to cure myself for a long time, but I did not teach my children to hate!). So, if these people can forgive, why can't you? Do you think it's funny to hate germans? If we talk about anti-polonism in Germany, we also have to talk about anti-russism or anti-ukrainism or antisemitism in Poland! By the way, many of these women, some of them came here for the first time after 60 years, told me, that they would have never expected such a warm welcome here in Germany. Micha.
Hey, Witkacy! Did you ever see the Programs of Harald Schmidt? I have serious Doubts that you did! So, don't talk about things of which you have no idea!
- Agreed. What Harald Schmidt makes are JOKES based on hamrless and innocent stereotypes. Suggesting this is "racism" or "anti-polish" is simply stupid. If you think Schmidt's few and little jokes are racist, then what's Monty Phytons "Don't mention the War" for you? Balatant anti-German racism or just good humour (which it actually is). It's about the same niveau of US/ UK jokes about "The French". No offence intended.
- I also strongly resent labeling ""Heute gestohlen, morgen in Polen" ("Stolen today, tommorow in Poland") — modern German saying" as a "modern German saying". BTW, it's actually "Kaum gesetohlen schon in Polen." which refers to the fact or car-jackers from Poland who used and still use Germany, Austria and the low countries as hunting ground. Mind you, that's a well established fact. See the according crime statistics for details. -- Dwightman 16:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Halibu tt 17:46, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Hey Halibut. Look at this link: http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2004/index2.html, open the pdf-file, then scroll down to page 116, and you'll see that polish citicens are mentioned on place 3 in the ranking of criminal suspects here in Germany. Just to make it clear, I do not say, that every Pole is a criminal. And this statistic material, which is collected by the federal police, shows, that the number of crimes committed by polish Citicents sank from 8,4 % in the year 1998 to 6,7 % in 2004. So, the number of crimes committed by polish suspects may have been higher than 8,4 %. In Germany we have a spelling: Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert, lebt sich's völlig ungeniert (when the reputation is ruined, you can live without inhibition). So, if the number of crimes committed by Poles was high (sorry, I don't have the exact number) in the 1990's you don't have to wonder about the fact that " everybody knows that polish people steal cars". But -as I said- everybody knows that the truth is that not every Pole steals. If it was the other way round, nobody would ask polish guest workers to help them for example cleaning the house, taking care about old people or working in the field. Micha.
Micha, please, stop vandalising this article. -- SylwiaS 17:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Dear SylwiaS! I do not have to vandalize this article, because it is Vandalizm in its pure form. There is so much in it, written by people who do not know what they talk about, that it's hard to believe, that these people mean it seriously. Volker and I tried to prove this with facts (like the statistics of the Police). Dear Witkacy stop telling german native speakers about meanings of german words! Strich, for example has different meanings, and not -as you said- the only one! What do you think is the translation for "male mir bitte einen Strich auf das Blatt"? Draw me a street filled with Kurwas / Bitches on the sheet? No! It's draw me a line on the sheet. And, yes I do have contact with other polish people. And we are very good friends.
Harmless stereotypes ? I wouldn't call them harmless due to fact that they led to persecution of Poles in Prussia, and mass murder of Poles by German state in WW2. Molobo.
What about the mass murder of Germans by polish people after WW2? Is that harmless to you, Molobo?
There was no mass murder of Germans after WW2-- Molobo 18:01, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
No he said something about mass murder of Germans by Poles, not about post war population transfer.-- Molobo 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Could we have some context for some of the modern German quotes? Supposedly one author wants to return to the days of the Prussian Empire, but the other author seems to be writing a humorous travelogue where she jokes about how cheap her Polish cleaning lady is and hinting at a threesome with the handsome Polish studs who refinished her kitchen. The gravity of the one is not equal to the other, and the article should have some text dealing with that and not just serve as a copy/paste dump. Actually, the whole bit about the Polish carpenters might be taken as a compliment to Polish manhood, depending on how religious they are and whether or not they want to be some German lady's sex object. -- Jpbrenna 00:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
""Dumb Polak" jokes are spread by third-graders on playgrounds and immature adults in factories and offices who should spend more time working and less time standing around the water cooler or coffee pot telling jokes." I don't think Ted Turned the founder of CNN is one of this people.-- Molobo 12:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Molobo: You'll find that despite your opinion of Ted Turner, a great many people do think he fits that description. :-) Tomer TALK 20:55, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
To answer some suggestions here. There were propositions before, how to develop this article and create new ones in this category. I'll paste here one of suggestions, which met with support of others:
Prejudices about Poles should also include things like bad stereotype of Poles in American films. There was also a proposition to create an article about History of Anti-Polish attitude and I think that to make some editors happy, we can also create an article about Misusage of the term Anti-Polonism, where we could describe the usage of the term by some nationalists as Tomer strongly insists on. -- SylwiaS 02:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Ten Artykul absolutnie nie opisuje prawdy. Moje rodzice na przyklad pochodza z Polski. Uczylem sie od nich mowic po polsku i nigdy nie zauwazylem, ze moje rodzice cierpili pod jakichkolwiek represiach. Ja osobiscie studiuje jezyka Polskiego na niemieckim uniwersytecie i na zajeciach spotykam wiele niemcow, ktore z wlasnej woli ucza sie jezyka Polskiego. Czy ten autor tego artykulu kiedys byl w miastach jak n.p. Frankfurt, Hamburg albo Berlin? Gdyby on byl tam, to by zrealizowal, ze -oprocz jezyka Tureckiego i Ruskiego- jezyk Polski jest jeden z najczesciej slyszanych jezykow obcych w Niemczech. To znaczy, ze mozna uzywac jezyka polskiego bez problemu. Serdecznie zapraszam was wszystkich do Niemczech, zebyscie zobaczyli na wlasne oczy, ze te oznaczane "Fakty" nie opisuja warunki panujace w Niemczech! Pamientajcie, ze Jan Pawel II. nie tylko bezblednie mowil po niemiecku, ale zawze chetnie przyjechal do nas, do Niemczech! Micha.
This article does absolutely not describe the truth. My parents for example are polish, and they tought me the polish language without any problems. I myself am studying Polish at a german university. I also know a lot of people, who are of german origin and try to learn Polish. By the way, have you (the auhtor of this article) ever been to cities like Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg, and so on? If you have been there, you may have realized, that the most spoken foreign language besides Turkish and Russian is Polish. So speaking polish in the public is no problem here! I invite you to come to Germany and see with your own eyes, that the "facts" mentioned in this article are all lies.
By the way, Pope John Paul II., who was of polish Origin, did speak perfectly well german and very often came to our country as a guest. He always had a warm welcome here! Micha.
Well don't measure reality solely by your own personal experience.You didn't have problems but they are Poles both parents and workers which are persecuted by German officials or employers based on their nationality.-- Molobo 17:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Personal experience isn't comperable to vertified events by media sources. -- Molobo 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
As I've stated previously, this article is an intractable mess of POV, and remains so because all attempts at removing the POV are reverted by the most vociferous POV-pushers. So rather than try to remove the POV outright, I'll just outline my proposal. First, this article should discuss the Polish political term antypolonyzm, as I said above in the #Context section. Then, almost everything in this article should be removed and put into the following articles:
The rest of the stuff can remain, but the context should be crystal clear: these are predominantly old quotes, or political gaffes (just as "antypolonyzm" should be regarded, but that's my POV) which are held up by proponents of this theory. Links can remain to all the articles that discuss such ludicrous things regarded as "Anti-Polonist" as You forgot Poland, but to characterize You forgot Poland as "Anti-Polonist" here is not only ridiculous, but a blatant violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Comments? Tomer TALK 21:09, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
That is absurd.Should antisemitsm be divided into World War 2, occupation of Poland, occupation of France, History of Russia etc ?-- Molobo 12:20, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Alx-pl-in reality Tomer wants the article to disapear, since previous attempts to delete it have failed.-- Molobo 12:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
"Long description of the anti-Polonism triggers nationalistic attitudes." Well, we should attempt simply to present facts, with neutral aproach.I don't think hiding them is good, after all we don't serve to create or shape people's attitudes towards events, just present them.It is their own choice what they will think of presented reality.We are not engineers of the soul("inzynierami dusz") after all "inzynierami dusz" ;)
I doubt Tomer can help anybody but those wishing to attack Poland.-- Molobo 17:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
"it is better to have a stronger justification than just we, Poles, think this should look like this? "
This is already dealt witht in the article.They are links to works of non-polish authors that show antipolish feelings being used in Russia to incite riots against Polish minority etc. We intend to expand the article to include many more examples. Here is one : http://www.mediactivist.ru/action/27 A translation from babel fish of the introduction: "We propose for the propagation the fragments from the remarkable book Of yu. mukhin "anti-Russian meanness", the book, after reading of which, any Pole immediately would be shot down from the loathing and the disgrace"-- Molobo 17:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
What I would like to see happening with this article: DELETE IT!
I agree with Tomer's assessment of this article. Seperate the various persecutions of poles, historically and in modern times, into their own articles, possibly with an overview article, maybe even a series structure, if the individual articles are sufficiently good. I will contribute to this.
As for the term "Anti-polonism," especially in Western Europe and North America, its origin seems directly tied to the aftermath and analysis of western reactions and backlash - often biased and bigoted - to the Communist purge and expulsion of jews from Poland in the 1960's. I don't think it is appropriate to basically co-opt the term as a blanket statement for any sentiment against Poles, modern or historical, real or imagined; doing so would be a form of original research, I believe... leave it to the social scientists, journalists, and other researchers to recognize and label trends in hatred and bias.
With the way this article is, the only thing that can result is a bunch of opurtinistic, whiney, unencyclopaedic soapboxing - prone to failure regardless of what people think, say, or do. -- Clapaucius| Talk 03:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC) Untrue If you would read the source material given in links you would see it deals for example with antipolish riots in Tsarists Russia.-- Molobo 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I've already read much about anti-Polonism and I can agree with your statement that this article is really on the verge of being an original research. In fact, I would be glad to have a modest article on anti-Polonism like Anglophobia, Russophobia, Anti-German, because such short articles mean that these nations simply don't care about hostility of other nations, but I think people like User:Witkacy or User:Molobo prefer to be more specific about anti-Polonism. How can you convince them to give up? How would you take into account articles like anti-Australianism or anti-Hellenism? Alx-pl 10:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC) Alx-antipolonism led to murder of 3milion ethnic Poles.I do think its important to educate about it and against it.-- Molobo 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Please, look through latest discussions and try to separate facts from your own opinions and emotions. Then come again, bring the sentences from the article you object to and source your arguments. This article isn’t about all people of certain nationalities but about particular problems. If you say the problems don’t exist then give us sources. I respect your private opinions and experiences but it’s too little to change the article. Also please, it’s really not a place to discuss private opinions of one editors about other editors. If you are interested in improving the article stay here, if you want to drag your private quarrels then go to user pages.
To address some arguments which were mentioned above:
1-Sylwia there were also cases where workers were ordered to speak German in their own private time.It's in the article in Wprost.Not some mentions but direct quote by the person involved. 2-as to "Poland is accused of having caused World War II".Besides countless German forums where I could find such accusations, Rudi Pawelka of Prussian Trust said that in his speach : http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,29398,wid,7558339,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=1&_ticrsn=5 -- Molobo 23:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
This whole article is rather disorganized, and I tried to introduce some order. I moved some things around so that they would be placed under the correct heading, but made no other changes except for the removal of this:
This article is NPOV for several reasons:
Alx-pl 22:56, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
It is a good point, but it does not address my concern. My concern is that Lukashenko is anti-Belarussian and quoting his attitudes and moves as Belarussian anti-Polonism is at least worth detailed consideration. Note that it is fair to phrase the first sentence of the section like this
but it is obviously ridiculous.
In order to address your concern, Lukaszenko's current status as the head of Belarussia is doubtful. He was elected by a referendum which was organised against the rules of Belarussia constitution and with serious suspicions about falsification. You can find related materials here, and [11].
Summing up, the current shape of this section is disputable. I could edit it myself, but I didn't have a clear idea on how to phrase the description which is partly due to the fact that I do not know whether the existence of this section is really to the point. I kindly ask you and others to put more light on the issue. Alx-pl 06:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Sylwia, I don't say that any of the facts in the article is false. Many of the history facts are obvious for me as a Pole and I am not going to delete them. I find it simply disturbing that the balance in the article is strongly towards presentation of Polish martyrdom now and in the past. This is the real reason for NPOV here and it is a legitimate reason as it is stated in WP:NPOV#Fairness and sympathetic tone. We can make the article more balanced by introduction of new facts, not by deleting the ones that are already there. Maybe some reorganisation of the material can also help. As you can see, I added NPOV after putting new text to German section so it is not a destructive action. I also actively work on the topic which you can spot reading my Talk edits in the last days.
I do not criticise solely the Germany section. I find the whole section Persistent prejudice against Poles (1945 to present) POV and this is stated in my message above so I'll change the place of the template. I put the label at the beginning initially, because I find the preamble POVish, but I do not have any specific objection by now there as the topic is very difficult and complicated - so I agree with your shift. Note also, that one week for NPOV label is too short as for the time being I am alone with my proposal and the current shape of the article is a result of work of many Wikipedians in a longer period of time. Of course, I would like to encourage you to help in adding the lacking informations. I put the NPOV label because
But, as I said, I am willing to reach the informations. Within this little amount of time I had I could state my objections, clarify them and find some additional info. If you and others can help in clarifying it further, please do not hesitate to write.
Your remarks about Lukaszenko are very interesting and to the point. I have to reconsider them and I'll be back with something more constructive later. Alx-pl 14:12, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The current NPOV tag makes the article unreadable.You should either put the tag at the top of the article or top of the whole section.Molobo.
The verb in Latin is fallo-fallere-fefelli-falsus; there is no falsificare, nor did the Roman Senate contain any falsifactores. So stop with the "falsification" already! Yes, somehow English has created falsify, but why make matters worse by coining new words according to the pattern? If someone jumped off a bridge would you do it too? Someone has even called poor Halibutt a "falsificator". It sounds like some kind of new and improved refrigerator. Mendax, however; or "mendacious inhabitant of the Lower Dneiper" would be just fine in terms of Latinity or good English usage, although if you are Halibutt you might not appreciate it.
The next malefactor to use a falsific-based word instead of "forgery", "fabrication" or "lie" in English Wikipedia will be sent over to the Latin Wikipedia as a galley slave. If you want to falsificate, take your act to the Romanian Wikipedia; their language at least has the term falsificator, unless Google has falsificated the results. -- Jpbrenna 08:14, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Some people dispute about 90% of this page. That's fine, but you don't need to add a tag to every single section. One of the reason I created all those subsections to the Germany section, for instance, was to make it easier to edit each sub-topic and make the edit history more specific so people know where to look for changes. Hopefully that will lesson the chance of all-out nuclear option revert war and keep it contained (sorry to have to borrow Cold War terminology). Don't think the Brandenburg-Berlin section is right, for example? Work on it and leave a message here explaining why. When it's done, move on to something else. No need to tag it; the reader will already have seen the tag at the top. Those section tags are for when most of the article is undisputed and only a tiny part is under dispute. I think we have the opposite situation here. I'm leaving a general NPOV and Attention tag at the top of the article. Please don't remove them, and please don't add any more. As Alx-pl said, this is probably going to take weeks, so be patient. -- Jpbrenna 20:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The best sollution for this problem is to remove the whole article. It is not 90%, but 100% !
The main problem begins with the name of this article: Anti- polonism. If you read about Anti-Semitism you will find this definition: “Anti-Semitism is hostility towards or prejudice against Jews, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized violent persecution“ You cant say that there is institutionalized violent persecution against Poles today in any country! It was different in history, but you have hundreds of articles on Wiki where you describe these sufferings. Some Poles try to establish a point of view that defines the suffering of the Poles where equal to the suffering of the Jews – which is unhistorical and simply a lie. Someone from overseas, who doesn’t know about the background might think, that there is some truth in this article – which is not. You established a fine list of stereotypes and personal opinions by some unfriendly people, but this isn’t Anti- Polonism, cause that means from the definition of Anti- Semitism that you need an ideology behind that. What you even need is some kind of “mass movement” against Poles, which even not existed nor exists. When someone say “Poles are stealing cars” it’s a POV of this person, but not common sense. We are not Anti- Polish, but in some way arrogant about Eastern Europeans in general, which I’m not proud of at all. Its not nice, but as a Pole you know what you say in your country about the “drunken barbarian Russians” at your right, and the “all time Crusaders” on the left side of your geographical map. But when you think my beloved Poles that you are the only ones who had to deal with that kind of stereotypes try to walk in German shoes, and you will find out soon, that you aren’t. In fact some of your “facts” are Anti- German, or stereotypes about Germans. What is brought up here are: lies; stereotypes, some truth mixed with propaganda and the whole style remembers me of soviet times. The only way that I see to deal with lies is not to answer – cause to defend means to take it serious – but to erase. It is obvious that most of the Polish authors here know well about German language, and maybe they have their personal reasons to be so offensive. (Maybe a German girl broke someone’s heart, or a Polish guy had a butthead of Chef in Germany?) You use the knowledge of the German language only for propaganda. But when Wiki is some kind of dictionary you have to base your argument on facts – there isn’t a single fact mentioned, but a lot of propaganda and misinterpretation. You said deleting is not the proper way to handle it, but when you don’t accept to marc this article as disputed it’s the only way. There is a lot of history- writing by Eastern Europeans here on Wiki, which I had learned to life with, but I will not respect anything like this about my country today. Stop lying, and I stop erasing, or mark that article for everyone as disputed. Cause the biggest lie about this article is to say, that it is not disputed; we have to keep the NPOV tag! An idea is to bring all that crap under the article “German stereotypes about Poles” cause its easier to life with this under that headline. I feel deeply sorry about the whole discussion here, cause I have Polish friends, and we have to close the “hating- case” between our nations as we did with the French, cause we are one by culture and we share the same history. But I see that many authors here are feeding hate and nationalism: try to make your peace with reality! Greetings from Germany, Volker PS: What I forgot to mention was, that all Poles I have showed this article where deeply ashamed of it and apologized for this: Does that mean anything to you, that your People are very unhappy with your POV?
“ You cant say that there is institutionalized violent persecution against Poles today in any country! "
Except Belarus, and to some extent Russia.Leftover traces of it are seen in Germany.
"Some Poles try to establish a point of view that defines the suffering of the Poles where equal to the suffering of the Jews – which is unhistorical and simply a lie"
The article isn't about Jews.However both Poles and Jews were classified as subhumans by German Reich.
"What you even need is some kind of “mass movement” against Poles, which even not existed nor exists."
Wrong.Campaigns against Poles existed in Russia, Prussia, and Germany.
"In fact some of your “facts” are Anti- German, or stereotypes about Germans"
Please show examples of "AntiGerman" propaganda.
"Maybe a German girl broke someone’s heart, or a Polish guy had a butthead of Chef in Germany?) "
Or maybe his country was target of extermination campaign.
Molobo.
What of your "Anti- Polonism" has left in Germany today? Wasn’t it Anti German to make a Ethnic Cleansing of 14 million Germans that caused 2 million dead? Isn’t it about creating a good tomorrow by tackling the problems from the past what we should do? I know that you are in love with the idea of the chosen country which had to suffer like Jesus did, but that’s only one side of the coin. And I’m not talking about yesterday, cause I’m to young to do so, and I’m sure that you are nearly the same age as I, cause we both know that only Students have the time to fight some meaningless fights as we do here. Look above, and you will see, that I’m not ignoring history, but what I even cant ignore are lies. And everything in the “Germany today”- section is a lie. I read the articles which are linked, and believe me my German is good enough to see the lack of credibility of this sources. Bring fresh stuff and evidences (I’m sure you cant, that’s why you bring all your arguments from history) and than we can talk. This country changed: realise that and stop boring me with your creepy ideas about “what’s going on in bloody Germany”. Volker
Please point to any lie in the article.Molobo " Wasn’t it Anti German to make a Ethnic Cleansing of 14 million Germans that caused 2 million dead?" Incorrect, there was no ethnic cleansing of 14 milion Germans nor 2 milion of them died.You are refering to both exodus from advancing Red Army and population transfer withing Soviet zone of control effecting more ethnic groups then just Germans.The figure includes btw German settlers after 1939, and civilian workers for German occupation force.The death figure is disputable since it refers to 2 milion Germans that went missing not were found dead.Modern estimates show figures in range of 500.000 people.
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That's clearly the most bias and one-sided article I ever saw in Wikipedia. In which century are your guys living? But if you really think this German bashing page is necessary, then why not creating a detailed article about Polish pogroms on Jews? Especially the ones that happened after 1945? Or about the Polish aggression against Czechoslovakia in 1939? It’s like you want to continue with propaganda and nationalism like nothing has changed since 1945. Grow up and get a life.
Alex
I had always liked
Frederick the Great's "l'audace, l'audace, tojours l'audace!" I'm shocked that this otherwise liberal and forward-thinking gentleman treated Poles that badly - and it sounds like it was some kind of personal vendetta, not just the business of acquiring the Silesian coal mines. I'll never say "l'audace etc." again -- and it was one of my favorite quotes! Apologies for posting it on Halibutt's userpage - I honestly didn't know at the time! --
Jpbrenna
03:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what's going on in your minds my beloved Poles! I read the article and I have to say that all of it is completely propaganda. You ever been in Germany? 2 million Poles are living here without any great trouble. They are integrated like no other national minority. When you talk about history you maybe right, but when you bring up all the old arguments you can't describe today’s Germany. EVERY single argument in your article was a lie. This is Anti- German and nothing else. You can do better, and you should, cause with things like that in mind good relationships cant be established. We are neighbours, if you like it or not, and we have to life together. The problem is, that you say what you heard, and you hear what you say – and all of this is from Polish sources and they are mainly full of nationalism. Yes you been victims in the past, but you did some wrong things too. Try to read neutral stuff from USA or England and redefine your standpoint. I tried to answer on that article, but than I decided to erase it, cause there is no diffrent way to handle this lies. Greetings from Germany, Volker
"Poles are living here without any great trouble. They are integrated like no other national minority" Poles aren't reckognised in Germany as national minority, despite the fact that some lived there for generations.-- Molobo 12:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"I would warn against identifying Molobo's and Witkacy's POV, for example, with the general public in Poland" Hmmm...so far I haven't expressed any POV, from where do you know my POV towards this matters ? Anyway parties expressing criticism of modern German attitude towards war (PO,PiS,LPR,Samoobrona,PSL) have together over circa 70 % of votes in public surveys.
"EVERY single argument in your article was a lie." Please point to arguments you consider lies.-- Molobo 12:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"Yes you been victims in the past, but you did some wrong things too" What wrong things have Poles done to Nazi Germany, and Prussia to be treated like animals meant to be eradicated ?-- Molobo 12:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"I have absolutely no way of knowing your POV about Germans, liberal Polish journalists of Jewish descent, homosexuals and other underlings... :^) " Exactly.I am glad you are coming to your senses Thorsten.Several later points of your post are wrong of course but this is not importante to the topic.-- Molobo 12:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I think its waste of time to educate fanatics, but I decided to answer the main lies of your article. Everybody who reads your stuff can see that this is caused by inferior complex, and you paint a picture about yourself with stuff like that, not about my country. And now to the facts:
1. Its not forbidden to teach, learn or use Polish language. 2. You can use any kind of language in Germany, cause this is a free country. 3. Harald Schmidt is a comedian, and he tells jokes for living. He makes jokes about everything. He didn't became awards for being anti- Polish, but for being funny. 4. There are jokes about Poland in German society, but there are much more jokes about Holland, and I never heard them cry like you do. By the way, I have friends from Poland and they told me some jokes used against Germans and they where rude too, but even funny - that’s the way humour works. Maybe the main problem is that you don’t have any sense of humour. 5. Go to wich war you like nobody cares. 6. Nobody in Germany says that Poland started the war, cause we know well about history - it's on you now to learn something about Germany today! 7. We know even about the 5 million Poles that lost their life’s during WWII, and we know that this was around 20 % of the population - this was terribly wrong, and we apologized for that with deep respect for the victims! 8. Erika Steinbach isn't a famous politician nor is she popular. In fact she isn't a politician at all. 9. You don't know anything about history, so don't try to teach it. 8. This article is anti- German and it doesn't help in establishing good relations between our nations. 10. Writing and reading of articles like that can cause some anti- Polonism
From now on I take your article as a evidence of bad taste and strange humour. In difference to you I don’t blame your nation for this stuff, cause sillyness doesn’t know borders or nationalities. Greetings from Germany to your private LaLaLand, Volker
This article does absolutely not describe the truth. My parents for example are polish, and they tought me the polish language without any problems. I myself am studying Polish at a german university. I also know a lot of people, who are of german origin and try to learn Polish. By the way, have you (the auhtor of this article) ever been to cities like Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg, and so on? If you have been there, you may have realized, that the most spoken foreign language besides Turkish and Russian is Polish. So speaking polish in the public is no problem here! I invite you to come to Germany and see with your own eyes, that the "facts" mentioned in this article are all lies.
By the way, Pope John Paul II., who was of polish Origin, did speak perfectly well german and very often came to our country as a guest. He always had a warm welcome here! Micha.
Ten Artykul absolutnie nie opisuje prawdy. Moje rodzice na przyklad pochodza z Polski. Uczylem sie od nich mowic po polsku i nigdy nie zauwazylem, ze moje rodzice cierpili pod jakichkolwiek represiach. Ja osobiscie studiuje jezyka Polskiego na niemieckim uniwersytecie i na zajeciach spotykam wiele niemcow, ktore z wlasnej woli ucza sie jezyka Polskiego. Czy ten autor tego artykulu kiedys byl w miastach jak n.p. Frankfurt, Hamburg albo Berlin? Gdyby on byl tam, to by zrealizowal, ze -oprocz jezyka Tureckiego i Ruskiego- jezyk Polski jest jeden z najczesciej slyszanych jezykow obcych w Niemczech. To znaczy, ze mozna uzywac jezyka polskiego bez problemu. Serdecznie zapraszam was wszystkich do Niemczech, zebyscie zobaczyli na wlasne oczy, ze te oznaczane "Fakty" nie opisuja warunki panujace w Niemczech! Pamientajcie, ze Jan Pawel II. nie tylko bezblednie mowil po niemiecku, ale zawze chetnie przyjechal do nas, do Niemczech! Micha.
Ale to napewno nie dla tego, ze on byl Polakiem, tylko ze jego opinia byla w pewnych politycznych kwesiach, n.p. kontrola urodzen,rola kobiet w Kosciele, Ekumeny (jak mozna odprawiac msze sw. z komunia RAZEM z ksiedzem Kosciola ewangelickiego?) itd. byla bardzo radykalna. Po za tym jestem o 100 % pewnym, ze w polskich gazetach lub na polskich stron internetowych tesz istnieja karykatury Papierza Benedikta XIV. alias Georg Kardinal Ratzinger! Micha.
A wiesz co to jest: Schwarzer Afghane? Moskau Inkasso? Russenschleuder? Coffee Shop? W tym artykule ( http://www.n24.de/politik/inland/index.php/a2004090916552992331) to Slowo "Polenstrich" jest uzywane jako synonymus, ktore okresla miejsce, gdzie nielegalne pracownicy szukaja Pracy ("Schwarzarbeit"). Gdy uzywasz takie Przyklady, to prosze opisuj, w jakim kontekscie oni sa uzywane. "Strich" -wiadomo- czesto opisuje miejsca, gdzie profesionalne dziewczyny sprzedaja swoje cialo. ALE: To Slowo w tym kontekscie opisuje miejsca, na ktorym nielegalne pracownicy szukaja pracy (np. jako Mechanik). ""Polenstrich" heißt die Institution, aber schon lange versuchen hier auch Tagelöhner aus der Slowakei, aus Rumänien oder der Ukraine ihr Glück. Je weiter östlich das Heimatland, desto geringer der Stundenlohn. Weißrussen arbeiten ab 80 Cent.". W tym artykule tesz jest opisane, ze tam sa nie tylko Polacy, ale i Czesi, Rumunczycy, Ukrainczycy, idt. To Slowo "Polenstrich" istnieje, bo po 1989. Roku wiekszosc Pracownikow nielegalnych, ktore szukali pracy w takim miejscu, pochodzili z Polski.
Even if some people in this forum do not like it, I have to tell you about another personal experience I made. On April this year I worked for a few days as a Volonteer at the Ravensbrück Concentration Camp. I had to take care of a Group (about 250 People) of polish victims of this camp, who came here for the celebrations of the 60th Anniversary of the freeing of this camp by the Red Army. I've talked to many of these people, and I asked them, if they still feel something like hate for the Germans. Over 80% of them answered with no! The Victims of these camps, and of course of the whole WW2 are the only ones, who are allowed to blame our grandfathers for what they did! They were the ones who really suffered! One of the Women (it was a women's camp) answered me: "Dlugo w tym miejscu cierpilam, dlugo musialam sie po tym leczycz, ale swoim dzieciom zal nie uczylam!" (I suffered for a long time in this place, I had to cure myself for a long time, but I did not teach my children to hate!). So, if these people can forgive, why can't you? Do you think it's funny to hate germans? If we talk about anti-polonism in Germany, we also have to talk about anti-russism or anti-ukrainism or antisemitism in Poland! By the way, many of these women, some of them came here for the first time after 60 years, told me, that they would have never expected such a warm welcome here in Germany. Micha.
Hey, Witkacy! Did you ever see the Programs of Harald Schmidt? I have serious Doubts that you did! So, don't talk about things of which you have no idea!
- Agreed. What Harald Schmidt makes are JOKES based on hamrless and innocent stereotypes. Suggesting this is "racism" or "anti-polish" is simply stupid. If you think Schmidt's few and little jokes are racist, then what's Monty Phytons "Don't mention the War" for you? Balatant anti-German racism or just good humour (which it actually is). It's about the same niveau of US/ UK jokes about "The French". No offence intended.
- I also strongly resent labeling ""Heute gestohlen, morgen in Polen" ("Stolen today, tommorow in Poland") — modern German saying" as a "modern German saying". BTW, it's actually "Kaum gesetohlen schon in Polen." which refers to the fact or car-jackers from Poland who used and still use Germany, Austria and the low countries as hunting ground. Mind you, that's a well established fact. See the according crime statistics for details. -- Dwightman 16:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Halibu tt 17:46, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Hey Halibut. Look at this link: http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2004/index2.html, open the pdf-file, then scroll down to page 116, and you'll see that polish citicens are mentioned on place 3 in the ranking of criminal suspects here in Germany. Just to make it clear, I do not say, that every Pole is a criminal. And this statistic material, which is collected by the federal police, shows, that the number of crimes committed by polish Citicents sank from 8,4 % in the year 1998 to 6,7 % in 2004. So, the number of crimes committed by polish suspects may have been higher than 8,4 %. In Germany we have a spelling: Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert, lebt sich's völlig ungeniert (when the reputation is ruined, you can live without inhibition). So, if the number of crimes committed by Poles was high (sorry, I don't have the exact number) in the 1990's you don't have to wonder about the fact that " everybody knows that polish people steal cars". But -as I said- everybody knows that the truth is that not every Pole steals. If it was the other way round, nobody would ask polish guest workers to help them for example cleaning the house, taking care about old people or working in the field. Micha.
Micha, please, stop vandalising this article. -- SylwiaS 17:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Dear SylwiaS! I do not have to vandalize this article, because it is Vandalizm in its pure form. There is so much in it, written by people who do not know what they talk about, that it's hard to believe, that these people mean it seriously. Volker and I tried to prove this with facts (like the statistics of the Police). Dear Witkacy stop telling german native speakers about meanings of german words! Strich, for example has different meanings, and not -as you said- the only one! What do you think is the translation for "male mir bitte einen Strich auf das Blatt"? Draw me a street filled with Kurwas / Bitches on the sheet? No! It's draw me a line on the sheet. And, yes I do have contact with other polish people. And we are very good friends.
Harmless stereotypes ? I wouldn't call them harmless due to fact that they led to persecution of Poles in Prussia, and mass murder of Poles by German state in WW2. Molobo.
What about the mass murder of Germans by polish people after WW2? Is that harmless to you, Molobo?
There was no mass murder of Germans after WW2-- Molobo 18:01, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
No he said something about mass murder of Germans by Poles, not about post war population transfer.-- Molobo 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Could we have some context for some of the modern German quotes? Supposedly one author wants to return to the days of the Prussian Empire, but the other author seems to be writing a humorous travelogue where she jokes about how cheap her Polish cleaning lady is and hinting at a threesome with the handsome Polish studs who refinished her kitchen. The gravity of the one is not equal to the other, and the article should have some text dealing with that and not just serve as a copy/paste dump. Actually, the whole bit about the Polish carpenters might be taken as a compliment to Polish manhood, depending on how religious they are and whether or not they want to be some German lady's sex object. -- Jpbrenna 00:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
""Dumb Polak" jokes are spread by third-graders on playgrounds and immature adults in factories and offices who should spend more time working and less time standing around the water cooler or coffee pot telling jokes." I don't think Ted Turned the founder of CNN is one of this people.-- Molobo 12:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Molobo: You'll find that despite your opinion of Ted Turner, a great many people do think he fits that description. :-) Tomer TALK 20:55, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
To answer some suggestions here. There were propositions before, how to develop this article and create new ones in this category. I'll paste here one of suggestions, which met with support of others:
Prejudices about Poles should also include things like bad stereotype of Poles in American films. There was also a proposition to create an article about History of Anti-Polish attitude and I think that to make some editors happy, we can also create an article about Misusage of the term Anti-Polonism, where we could describe the usage of the term by some nationalists as Tomer strongly insists on. -- SylwiaS 02:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Ten Artykul absolutnie nie opisuje prawdy. Moje rodzice na przyklad pochodza z Polski. Uczylem sie od nich mowic po polsku i nigdy nie zauwazylem, ze moje rodzice cierpili pod jakichkolwiek represiach. Ja osobiscie studiuje jezyka Polskiego na niemieckim uniwersytecie i na zajeciach spotykam wiele niemcow, ktore z wlasnej woli ucza sie jezyka Polskiego. Czy ten autor tego artykulu kiedys byl w miastach jak n.p. Frankfurt, Hamburg albo Berlin? Gdyby on byl tam, to by zrealizowal, ze -oprocz jezyka Tureckiego i Ruskiego- jezyk Polski jest jeden z najczesciej slyszanych jezykow obcych w Niemczech. To znaczy, ze mozna uzywac jezyka polskiego bez problemu. Serdecznie zapraszam was wszystkich do Niemczech, zebyscie zobaczyli na wlasne oczy, ze te oznaczane "Fakty" nie opisuja warunki panujace w Niemczech! Pamientajcie, ze Jan Pawel II. nie tylko bezblednie mowil po niemiecku, ale zawze chetnie przyjechal do nas, do Niemczech! Micha.
This article does absolutely not describe the truth. My parents for example are polish, and they tought me the polish language without any problems. I myself am studying Polish at a german university. I also know a lot of people, who are of german origin and try to learn Polish. By the way, have you (the auhtor of this article) ever been to cities like Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg, and so on? If you have been there, you may have realized, that the most spoken foreign language besides Turkish and Russian is Polish. So speaking polish in the public is no problem here! I invite you to come to Germany and see with your own eyes, that the "facts" mentioned in this article are all lies.
By the way, Pope John Paul II., who was of polish Origin, did speak perfectly well german and very often came to our country as a guest. He always had a warm welcome here! Micha.
Well don't measure reality solely by your own personal experience.You didn't have problems but they are Poles both parents and workers which are persecuted by German officials or employers based on their nationality.-- Molobo 17:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Personal experience isn't comperable to vertified events by media sources. -- Molobo 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
As I've stated previously, this article is an intractable mess of POV, and remains so because all attempts at removing the POV are reverted by the most vociferous POV-pushers. So rather than try to remove the POV outright, I'll just outline my proposal. First, this article should discuss the Polish political term antypolonyzm, as I said above in the #Context section. Then, almost everything in this article should be removed and put into the following articles:
The rest of the stuff can remain, but the context should be crystal clear: these are predominantly old quotes, or political gaffes (just as "antypolonyzm" should be regarded, but that's my POV) which are held up by proponents of this theory. Links can remain to all the articles that discuss such ludicrous things regarded as "Anti-Polonist" as You forgot Poland, but to characterize You forgot Poland as "Anti-Polonist" here is not only ridiculous, but a blatant violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Comments? Tomer TALK 21:09, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
That is absurd.Should antisemitsm be divided into World War 2, occupation of Poland, occupation of France, History of Russia etc ?-- Molobo 12:20, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Alx-pl-in reality Tomer wants the article to disapear, since previous attempts to delete it have failed.-- Molobo 12:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
"Long description of the anti-Polonism triggers nationalistic attitudes." Well, we should attempt simply to present facts, with neutral aproach.I don't think hiding them is good, after all we don't serve to create or shape people's attitudes towards events, just present them.It is their own choice what they will think of presented reality.We are not engineers of the soul("inzynierami dusz") after all "inzynierami dusz" ;)
I doubt Tomer can help anybody but those wishing to attack Poland.-- Molobo 17:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
"it is better to have a stronger justification than just we, Poles, think this should look like this? "
This is already dealt witht in the article.They are links to works of non-polish authors that show antipolish feelings being used in Russia to incite riots against Polish minority etc. We intend to expand the article to include many more examples. Here is one : http://www.mediactivist.ru/action/27 A translation from babel fish of the introduction: "We propose for the propagation the fragments from the remarkable book Of yu. mukhin "anti-Russian meanness", the book, after reading of which, any Pole immediately would be shot down from the loathing and the disgrace"-- Molobo 17:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
What I would like to see happening with this article: DELETE IT!
I agree with Tomer's assessment of this article. Seperate the various persecutions of poles, historically and in modern times, into their own articles, possibly with an overview article, maybe even a series structure, if the individual articles are sufficiently good. I will contribute to this.
As for the term "Anti-polonism," especially in Western Europe and North America, its origin seems directly tied to the aftermath and analysis of western reactions and backlash - often biased and bigoted - to the Communist purge and expulsion of jews from Poland in the 1960's. I don't think it is appropriate to basically co-opt the term as a blanket statement for any sentiment against Poles, modern or historical, real or imagined; doing so would be a form of original research, I believe... leave it to the social scientists, journalists, and other researchers to recognize and label trends in hatred and bias.
With the way this article is, the only thing that can result is a bunch of opurtinistic, whiney, unencyclopaedic soapboxing - prone to failure regardless of what people think, say, or do. -- Clapaucius| Talk 03:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC) Untrue If you would read the source material given in links you would see it deals for example with antipolish riots in Tsarists Russia.-- Molobo 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I've already read much about anti-Polonism and I can agree with your statement that this article is really on the verge of being an original research. In fact, I would be glad to have a modest article on anti-Polonism like Anglophobia, Russophobia, Anti-German, because such short articles mean that these nations simply don't care about hostility of other nations, but I think people like User:Witkacy or User:Molobo prefer to be more specific about anti-Polonism. How can you convince them to give up? How would you take into account articles like anti-Australianism or anti-Hellenism? Alx-pl 10:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC) Alx-antipolonism led to murder of 3milion ethnic Poles.I do think its important to educate about it and against it.-- Molobo 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Please, look through latest discussions and try to separate facts from your own opinions and emotions. Then come again, bring the sentences from the article you object to and source your arguments. This article isn’t about all people of certain nationalities but about particular problems. If you say the problems don’t exist then give us sources. I respect your private opinions and experiences but it’s too little to change the article. Also please, it’s really not a place to discuss private opinions of one editors about other editors. If you are interested in improving the article stay here, if you want to drag your private quarrels then go to user pages.
To address some arguments which were mentioned above:
1-Sylwia there were also cases where workers were ordered to speak German in their own private time.It's in the article in Wprost.Not some mentions but direct quote by the person involved. 2-as to "Poland is accused of having caused World War II".Besides countless German forums where I could find such accusations, Rudi Pawelka of Prussian Trust said that in his speach : http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,29398,wid,7558339,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=1&_ticrsn=5 -- Molobo 23:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
This whole article is rather disorganized, and I tried to introduce some order. I moved some things around so that they would be placed under the correct heading, but made no other changes except for the removal of this:
This article is NPOV for several reasons:
Alx-pl 22:56, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
It is a good point, but it does not address my concern. My concern is that Lukashenko is anti-Belarussian and quoting his attitudes and moves as Belarussian anti-Polonism is at least worth detailed consideration. Note that it is fair to phrase the first sentence of the section like this
but it is obviously ridiculous.
In order to address your concern, Lukaszenko's current status as the head of Belarussia is doubtful. He was elected by a referendum which was organised against the rules of Belarussia constitution and with serious suspicions about falsification. You can find related materials here, and [11].
Summing up, the current shape of this section is disputable. I could edit it myself, but I didn't have a clear idea on how to phrase the description which is partly due to the fact that I do not know whether the existence of this section is really to the point. I kindly ask you and others to put more light on the issue. Alx-pl 06:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Sylwia, I don't say that any of the facts in the article is false. Many of the history facts are obvious for me as a Pole and I am not going to delete them. I find it simply disturbing that the balance in the article is strongly towards presentation of Polish martyrdom now and in the past. This is the real reason for NPOV here and it is a legitimate reason as it is stated in WP:NPOV#Fairness and sympathetic tone. We can make the article more balanced by introduction of new facts, not by deleting the ones that are already there. Maybe some reorganisation of the material can also help. As you can see, I added NPOV after putting new text to German section so it is not a destructive action. I also actively work on the topic which you can spot reading my Talk edits in the last days.
I do not criticise solely the Germany section. I find the whole section Persistent prejudice against Poles (1945 to present) POV and this is stated in my message above so I'll change the place of the template. I put the label at the beginning initially, because I find the preamble POVish, but I do not have any specific objection by now there as the topic is very difficult and complicated - so I agree with your shift. Note also, that one week for NPOV label is too short as for the time being I am alone with my proposal and the current shape of the article is a result of work of many Wikipedians in a longer period of time. Of course, I would like to encourage you to help in adding the lacking informations. I put the NPOV label because
But, as I said, I am willing to reach the informations. Within this little amount of time I had I could state my objections, clarify them and find some additional info. If you and others can help in clarifying it further, please do not hesitate to write.
Your remarks about Lukaszenko are very interesting and to the point. I have to reconsider them and I'll be back with something more constructive later. Alx-pl 14:12, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The current NPOV tag makes the article unreadable.You should either put the tag at the top of the article or top of the whole section.Molobo.
The verb in Latin is fallo-fallere-fefelli-falsus; there is no falsificare, nor did the Roman Senate contain any falsifactores. So stop with the "falsification" already! Yes, somehow English has created falsify, but why make matters worse by coining new words according to the pattern? If someone jumped off a bridge would you do it too? Someone has even called poor Halibutt a "falsificator". It sounds like some kind of new and improved refrigerator. Mendax, however; or "mendacious inhabitant of the Lower Dneiper" would be just fine in terms of Latinity or good English usage, although if you are Halibutt you might not appreciate it.
The next malefactor to use a falsific-based word instead of "forgery", "fabrication" or "lie" in English Wikipedia will be sent over to the Latin Wikipedia as a galley slave. If you want to falsificate, take your act to the Romanian Wikipedia; their language at least has the term falsificator, unless Google has falsificated the results. -- Jpbrenna 08:14, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Some people dispute about 90% of this page. That's fine, but you don't need to add a tag to every single section. One of the reason I created all those subsections to the Germany section, for instance, was to make it easier to edit each sub-topic and make the edit history more specific so people know where to look for changes. Hopefully that will lesson the chance of all-out nuclear option revert war and keep it contained (sorry to have to borrow Cold War terminology). Don't think the Brandenburg-Berlin section is right, for example? Work on it and leave a message here explaining why. When it's done, move on to something else. No need to tag it; the reader will already have seen the tag at the top. Those section tags are for when most of the article is undisputed and only a tiny part is under dispute. I think we have the opposite situation here. I'm leaving a general NPOV and Attention tag at the top of the article. Please don't remove them, and please don't add any more. As Alx-pl said, this is probably going to take weeks, so be patient. -- Jpbrenna 20:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The best sollution for this problem is to remove the whole article. It is not 90%, but 100% !
The main problem begins with the name of this article: Anti- polonism. If you read about Anti-Semitism you will find this definition: “Anti-Semitism is hostility towards or prejudice against Jews, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized violent persecution“ You cant say that there is institutionalized violent persecution against Poles today in any country! It was different in history, but you have hundreds of articles on Wiki where you describe these sufferings. Some Poles try to establish a point of view that defines the suffering of the Poles where equal to the suffering of the Jews – which is unhistorical and simply a lie. Someone from overseas, who doesn’t know about the background might think, that there is some truth in this article – which is not. You established a fine list of stereotypes and personal opinions by some unfriendly people, but this isn’t Anti- Polonism, cause that means from the definition of Anti- Semitism that you need an ideology behind that. What you even need is some kind of “mass movement” against Poles, which even not existed nor exists. When someone say “Poles are stealing cars” it’s a POV of this person, but not common sense. We are not Anti- Polish, but in some way arrogant about Eastern Europeans in general, which I’m not proud of at all. Its not nice, but as a Pole you know what you say in your country about the “drunken barbarian Russians” at your right, and the “all time Crusaders” on the left side of your geographical map. But when you think my beloved Poles that you are the only ones who had to deal with that kind of stereotypes try to walk in German shoes, and you will find out soon, that you aren’t. In fact some of your “facts” are Anti- German, or stereotypes about Germans. What is brought up here are: lies; stereotypes, some truth mixed with propaganda and the whole style remembers me of soviet times. The only way that I see to deal with lies is not to answer – cause to defend means to take it serious – but to erase. It is obvious that most of the Polish authors here know well about German language, and maybe they have their personal reasons to be so offensive. (Maybe a German girl broke someone’s heart, or a Polish guy had a butthead of Chef in Germany?) You use the knowledge of the German language only for propaganda. But when Wiki is some kind of dictionary you have to base your argument on facts – there isn’t a single fact mentioned, but a lot of propaganda and misinterpretation. You said deleting is not the proper way to handle it, but when you don’t accept to marc this article as disputed it’s the only way. There is a lot of history- writing by Eastern Europeans here on Wiki, which I had learned to life with, but I will not respect anything like this about my country today. Stop lying, and I stop erasing, or mark that article for everyone as disputed. Cause the biggest lie about this article is to say, that it is not disputed; we have to keep the NPOV tag! An idea is to bring all that crap under the article “German stereotypes about Poles” cause its easier to life with this under that headline. I feel deeply sorry about the whole discussion here, cause I have Polish friends, and we have to close the “hating- case” between our nations as we did with the French, cause we are one by culture and we share the same history. But I see that many authors here are feeding hate and nationalism: try to make your peace with reality! Greetings from Germany, Volker PS: What I forgot to mention was, that all Poles I have showed this article where deeply ashamed of it and apologized for this: Does that mean anything to you, that your People are very unhappy with your POV?
“ You cant say that there is institutionalized violent persecution against Poles today in any country! "
Except Belarus, and to some extent Russia.Leftover traces of it are seen in Germany.
"Some Poles try to establish a point of view that defines the suffering of the Poles where equal to the suffering of the Jews – which is unhistorical and simply a lie"
The article isn't about Jews.However both Poles and Jews were classified as subhumans by German Reich.
"What you even need is some kind of “mass movement” against Poles, which even not existed nor exists."
Wrong.Campaigns against Poles existed in Russia, Prussia, and Germany.
"In fact some of your “facts” are Anti- German, or stereotypes about Germans"
Please show examples of "AntiGerman" propaganda.
"Maybe a German girl broke someone’s heart, or a Polish guy had a butthead of Chef in Germany?) "
Or maybe his country was target of extermination campaign.
Molobo.
What of your "Anti- Polonism" has left in Germany today? Wasn’t it Anti German to make a Ethnic Cleansing of 14 million Germans that caused 2 million dead? Isn’t it about creating a good tomorrow by tackling the problems from the past what we should do? I know that you are in love with the idea of the chosen country which had to suffer like Jesus did, but that’s only one side of the coin. And I’m not talking about yesterday, cause I’m to young to do so, and I’m sure that you are nearly the same age as I, cause we both know that only Students have the time to fight some meaningless fights as we do here. Look above, and you will see, that I’m not ignoring history, but what I even cant ignore are lies. And everything in the “Germany today”- section is a lie. I read the articles which are linked, and believe me my German is good enough to see the lack of credibility of this sources. Bring fresh stuff and evidences (I’m sure you cant, that’s why you bring all your arguments from history) and than we can talk. This country changed: realise that and stop boring me with your creepy ideas about “what’s going on in bloody Germany”. Volker
Please point to any lie in the article.Molobo " Wasn’t it Anti German to make a Ethnic Cleansing of 14 million Germans that caused 2 million dead?" Incorrect, there was no ethnic cleansing of 14 milion Germans nor 2 milion of them died.You are refering to both exodus from advancing Red Army and population transfer withing Soviet zone of control effecting more ethnic groups then just Germans.The figure includes btw German settlers after 1939, and civilian workers for German occupation force.The death figure is disputable since it refers to 2 milion Germans that went missing not were found dead.Modern estimates show figures in range of 500.000 people.