![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Hello, algeria's section seems to irritate an arab contributor (bestofmed), but what's the problem ? let's analyse the article:
"Anti-Arabism is a major element of movements known as Berberism that are widespread mainly amongst Algerians of Kabyle and other Berber origin"
It's "BERBERISM", and not anti-arabism, that are widespread among kabyles and berbers. It's sure that some of these people are anti-arab, but not necessary the majority. If there's a real interrogation about this sentence, it's more about the "is a major element" fact. I'm not sure that berberism is essentially based on anti-arabism, it could be even insulting to this movement to say it, claiming that's a racist ideology !!!!
"it has historic roots as Arabs are seen as invaders that occupied Algeria and destroyed its late Roman and early medieval civilization that was considered as an integral part of the West; this invasion is considered to have been the source of the resettlement of Algeria's Berber population in Kabylia and other mountainuous areas"
That's historical facts, easily found in any history book. About the resettlement, we can add that many other berbers went to north, to Iberia and Italy (perhaps it helped the devellopement of an anti-arabism there, but it's not the subject).
"regardless of this the Kabyles and other Berbers have managed to preserve their culture and achieve higher standards of living and education when compared to Algerian Arabs"
About the management of culture and language, there isn't any doubt. About the standart of living, it seems to include essentially the level of industrialisation: Kabylia and Algiers (which is widely populated by kabyles) are the most industrialised regions of Algeria.
I'm not sure if kabyles have a beter standart of living, because algerian arabs have oil allowance. Officially, kabylia does't receive oil's money arguing that's more "riche" than the rest of the country, but this argument doesn't satisfy many kabyles: it look like clearly a racist economical politic.
The comparaison of standarts of living, and even more standarts of education, are more evidents in ALgiers, the only bicultural region of the country: most of middle/upper classes are kabyles. The city is populated widely by kabyles, while arabs are often living in the poor suburbs.
Most of Algiers teachers, doctors, engineers and other hight education jobs are kabyles. It's known essentially by the universities's census (the only racial and religious census in Algeria). Myself a teacher at the nation polytechnical school of Algiers, i can give the last census (2007):
- 83% of students identitfy themselfs as kabyles/berbers
- 11% identify as arabs
- 06% are foreigners (most from subsahara africa, mainly from Mali, Senegal, Congo and Cameroon)
Thid in a national school, in state where berbers represent 25% of total population...
"furthermore many Berbers speak their language and French, are non religious, secular or Evangelical Christian and openly identify with the Western World"
It was said that "many" berbers speak french, so it doesn't mean neither that ALL speak it, nor that there isn't arabs who speak it. This point just discuss the fact that many arabs have a rejection of french language, for identity reason (arabs seeing the french influence as a danger for their arab language and muslim culture). This rejection doesn't exist among kabyles, it explain perhaps their best general level in it. But french stills the first foreign language everywhere in Algeria.
About the religious affiliation, the "many" word doesn't exculde the existence of kabyle (and more often berber) muslims. The quotation of the evangelical movement (and not catholicism, the kabyles christians's majority's church) evok clearely that anti-arabism is developped ONLY by this kind of churchs. It doesn't mean too that all evangelical churchs in Algeria are anti-arabs (there's even some arab protestants !!!).
"many Berber Nationalists view Arabs as a hostile people intent on eradicating their own culture and nation"
It's a political fact, easily comprehensible when you see arab political parties's program (which often include anti-kabylism !!!)
"It is a usually a taboo amongst Berbers to marry someone from the Arab ethnic group, although it is permitted to marry someone from other ethnicities. There are regular Hate incidents between Arabs and Berbers and Anti-Arabism has been accentuated by the Algerian governments anti-Berber policies and violent actions as well as by Islamist (Arab) terror acts against Berbers."
I will not comment the marriage question, because i don't really know if it's the case, but anyway it doesn't seems to me a really important point of the article.
About hate incidents, we can see it very often in shows like football matchs, where kabyle teams are AUTOMATICALLY very badly handled in their trip against arab teams.
Algerian anti-berber policies is a fact. About islamist terror acts, of tourse it doesn't touch only berbers, but when it's the case many berbers see it as an arab attaks against theme. And in general terrorists tend to accentuate this feeling (deliberatly or not) by actions like demanding to algerian government to impose the payment of the "al jizya", a special taxe that jewish and christians are supposed to pay in muslim countries, for kabyles !!!!!
I have many sources that can confirm the article's section, i i will add theme o Nabilus's ones (i ignore Camps's book but i know the 2 others).
In final, the charge of bestofmed that this article support algerian anti-arabism isn't well-founded. It's just a retrospective of the situation in our country, wich explain the origin of anti-arabism, but doesn't support him by any way.
friendly.
Ignacio elias ( talk) 12:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)ignacio elias
Article is lacking a few. Thought I'd offer this one up. Taken in Pattaya Beach, Thailand in April 2002. Safe to say it shows a somewhat anti Arab view. -- Looper5920 20:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Read it, understand it, use it. It isn't optional. Anarchangel ( talk) 22:27, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Ok I'm not commenting about the argument above, but I find the berber, kabyle, Amazigh thing confusing in the text. The proper word to use is Amazigh Jannahred ( talk) 19:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
The section "Israel" is connecting ANY fear of terror with "racism", a term used by all anti Israel and anti Jewish bigotry propaganda, aided by POLITICALLY far-left (including {Ha'aretz) in Israel.
It avoids any linkage to the authentic cause of fear by genuine concerend Israelis, worried about their children safety.
Nor does it mention the very attacks by Israeli/Palestinian Arabs on Israeli (selecting out) civilian - Jews, as real RACISM.
Gades334 ( talk) 19:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)I will remove the POV tag as Gades has failed to bring any rationale. I don't call the above to be rationale for the POV tag because when boiled down, the arguments are 1. This article should be more about antisemitism 2. Israelis are incapable of racism but Palestinians and other Arabs are the real racists and 3. Whatever discrimination Arabs receive is their own fault. I would address Caponica's argument but he is just a sock of Lanternix who is simply reverting because I was in a dispute with him on a different unrelated article, an action known as wikihounding. - Falastine fee Qalby ( talk) 18:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Lanternix/Caponica or whatever you wish to call yourself, if you wish to add material regarding Arab anti-Semitism I suggest you do it in the correct place. That place is not here. Factsontheground ( talk) 08:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
The section about Israel has nothing to do with so called anti Arabism, it has all to do with the conflict from Arabs upon Jews since the 1929 massacre in Hebron by the Mufti (buddy of Adolf Hitler]]) inspiration.
Usualuntilalnd ( talk) 22:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
You want to talk massacres, Caponica/Usualuntilalnd? Talk about the Deir Yassin massacre where Irgun killed over 100 unarmed civilian villagers leading to the fleeing of thousands of Palestinians from their homes. But all this has nothing to do with the subject. You have to provide a valid justification for the POV tag, so far you have not. - Falastine fee Qalby ( talk) 23:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone disagree that the repeated 'edit war' by 'Falastine fee Qalby' is a bigoted Palestinian militant propaganda work of the cheapes kind, nothing encylopedic?
It is not far fetched from sense to mention (Wiki) terror attacks by Israeli Arabs, vital to understand Israelis feelings.
Here are my added lines that 'Falastine fee Qalby' repeatedly removes with ever changing sepposed "reasons"...
See also related Palestinian terror Israeli Arabs involvement in terror attacks on Israeli civilians Islamic terrorism Jerusalem bulldozer attack Mercaz HaRav shooting in Israel involving also Israeli-Arabs, to understand Israelis' peocupation.
Usualuntilalnd ( talk) 23:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
First of all, your personal attack is out of line and if you make one again, I will report you. I haven't made an edit to the article other than to remove nonsense like your poorly worded fragment that contains a made-up word. How silly is that sentence by the way, you are directing people to go look at other articles to "understand Israelis' peocupation" What is peocupation??? Your edit is not only inane but it is also nonconstructive. Again you provide no rationale just whining and personal attacks. -- Falastine fee Qalby ( talk) 23:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
There was a {{ verify credibility}} tag on a citation from Al-Ahram Weekly. The tag was dated Feb 2008, and I could not find any discussion on the talk pages about why it was tagged. Looking at the website, this appears to be regular news publication that meets at least the basic standards of WP:RS. So absent any specific reason for challenging it, I've removed the tag. -- RL0919 ( talk) 03:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Why would this not be anti-Arab? Many of the links on this page do not explicitly say that one event or another is anti-Arab. In checking, I found that the Ivory Coast section does not even seem relevant to this article. The link is about anti-foreigners, not specifically anti-Arab. -- Shuki ( talk) 20:29, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I think there are some very different things, which are all pushed together in this article, when perhaps they either need different sections or just cutting out.
The Fort Hood shooting took place two days ago. Currently, it is impossible to say that it has "significantly" increased Anti-Arabism in the United States. Please leave this part out until some future point (if ever) that an increase in this sentiment can be verified. Grsz 11 21:39, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Hey, quick question. I can't find anything that says that the attack was funded by the Arab American Institute, and that information in the article has no source. It isn't mentioned in any of the articles on James Zogby or the Institute. Unless it can be proven, I have a feeling that it is just racist vandalism and needs to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.114.161 ( talk) 04:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I find it odd that Ayn Rand is given such prominence in the discussion of anti-Arabism in the US. After an introductory sentence, the section immediately quotes Rand speaking in 1974, then jumps to 1991. The article almost gives the impression that Rand was the premier anti-Arab activist in the US prior to the 90s, which is hardly the case. (She seems to have spoken of Arabs relatively little. The quoted comments are from a Q&A session after a speech on an unrelated subject.) I edited the lead-in to give the quote a better sense of historical context, but it still seems like undue weight on one person. I'm no expert in anti-Arabism, but surely there are other, more prominent examples from before 1991 that could/should be added to provide more history? -- RL0919 ( talk) 23:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
How is it not OR to say this simply anti-Saudi sentiment? YEs, he's Arab. If a Polish guy is vilified for being catholic, that's anti-Catholic sentiment, not anti-Polish sentiment.-- Urthogie 16:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Many Muslims do drink alcohol. Many followers of every religion fail to obey all its injunctions Manormadman ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)Manormadman
Oh I see you were talking about the cartoon. I thought you were talking about the image taken from Thailand. Bless sins 17:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The "racism" shouting has become more political, less of substance, at least from critics' view have to be (added) stated, if the Arab organizations' POV is already presented so much in the article, which is one big rant of bashing Israel.
1) Where's Israelis' worry from Arab racism's attack (specifically targeting) on Jews of security in all of this, as if it doesn't play the role.
2) Criticism of mixed-marriages, is "racist" and not based on religious and safety concern at all? Who's POV is that? What does this have to do with anti-Arabism.
3) In this anti-Israel rant, affirmative action by Israel and favouring Arabs over Jews is omitted. Where's the balance and objectivity???
4) To whoever has added an organization that rescues Jews entrapped by Arabs, it is a religious org. its motives are religious never about "Arab ethnicity."
---
Criticism of the Arab charges of "racism"
Israel has implemented affirmative action in different areas [1], And on campus --critics argue-- there's a constant favoritism of Arabs over Jews, a de-facto affirmative action. [2] [3]
Rabin's government contributed to the introduction of affirmative action [4] under there some affirmative action programs Arab citizens pay much lower lease rates than do Jewish c=itizens [5].
An rexample in the finacial sector, from an Address by the Governor of the Bank of Israel, 13 Nov 2007:
We publish tenders for the populations entitled to affirmative action, and in other tenders too the approach to candidates from those sectors is one of affirmative action. Tenders are passed directly to several organizations that represent those populations, and are published also in Arabic. [6]
An example of unfairness towards Jews:
Upper Nazareth was established for the Jews as affirmative action, because the Arabs would not let them live in Lower Nazareth. Today, Arabs live in Upper Nazareth but in Arab Nazareth there are still no Jews. [7]
Some have asked if companies' Minority Discounts" for Israeli Arabs constitute reverse discrimination. [8]
A writer titled (the false "racism" terminology on awareness of anti-Jewish Arab racist attacks targeting Jews [9] [10] [11]) it: "Israelis aren't 'racist,' they're worried" [12]. Others have spoken out on describing Israel’s concerns as "security pretexts" and translating those genuinely held concerns into policies supposedly promoting "apartheid" and "racism" - as pure incitement and the real racism, it has also been noted example-facts which these "critics" ignore, like: there are roads in the Arab-Palestinian West Bank that are closed to Jews, where the real racist-apartheid side is at. [13].
Under title: Yes, Israel's a democracy J. Dayan wrote in the LA Times (May, 2010) about Tibi's using inflammatory words like "racist" and "fascist." As is his style, Tibi failed to back up his white-hot rhetoric with hard facts. the writer backs up the factual equality status of Arabs in all aspects with facts on the ground, and goes on in saying: "The Arab Israeli lawmaker who accused the Jewish state of having 'racist' and 'fascist' policies enjoys rights and freedoms he wouldn't find anywhere else in the Middle East." [14]
Even not agreeing with Israel Beiteinu's Liberman's policies, the left winger liberal Haaretz had a piece: "Lieberman is no racist," and it's an injustice to brand him as such, for him, for his voters, it stems from a tendency to delegitimize and demonize people with whom certain politicians have a disagreemen with. Emphesizing that:
What's racist is denying the Jewish people a state of their own. Certain Arab Knesset members talk incessantly about the Palestinian people's rights, including their own state. But in the same breath they refuse to acknowledge Israel as the state of the Jewish people and deny the very existence of a Jewish people as a nation with national rights. The person who deserves the racist epithet is MK Jamal Zahalka, who attended the conference of hate in Geneva and called himself "a victim of Israel's racist apartheid" while serving as a member of the Israeli parliament. [15]
RolesRoice ( talk) 22:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
With all due respect, Even according to your POV, (though wishing to remove the affirmative actions part, yet) the Jpost source (& other) criticism of branding worry of terror as "racist" should be included to balance out this all-out anti-Israel bashing, largely (even the Guardian is) based on such controversial figures as infamous Ahmed Tibi. RolesRoice ( talk) 19:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
So is the anti-Israel rant, the Guardian, an oped piece based on Ahmed Tibi, who himself is not a RS. The right-Arutz 7 is as reliable as left-Haaretz.
Boi - Address by the Governor of the Bank of Israel- 13 Nov 2007:
We publish tenders for the populations entitled to affirmative action, and in other tenders too the approach to candidates from those sectors is one of affirmative action. Tenders are passed directly to several organizations that represent those populations, and are published also in Arabic.
http://www.bankisrael.gov.il/deptdata/neumim/neum250e.htm RolesRoice ( talk) 19:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Jpost - Center
Haaretz, peacenow, B'tzelem - radical leftwing.
Yedioth - left.
Arutz 7 - Right.
JTF, Kahana, Masada - radical right.
As the anti Israel rant says that Israeli Arabs are disciriminated against, that's exactly where the (relevance!) affirmative action aspect has to be stated.
In accordance with your argumenT that the anti-Israel portion is OK because it mentions/names Tibi as a source, so can the
Haaretz article that refutes him be named:
[2]
RolesRoice (
talk) 20:20, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
To Hobit, in reality the recent action by nableezy is an orchestrated attack, it was due to this [3]. PS, I didn't understand what a an intifada-blog (ei) is doing there as a source. RolesRoice ( talk) 20:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I am glad the truth can be funny. Thanks for replacing the trashy EI with something else. If the Arabs would often exchange smiles with Israelis (but with respect!) maybe there would be peace. RolesRoice ( talk) 21:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Your assessment of what is a RS in Israeli media is your own personal POV. However, the actual status of the Israeli media: mainstream; left; radical left; right, ect. are factual, as somenone that knows Israeli society, nothing "funny" as you tried to make it, as per your own personal view here. RolesRoice ( talk) 22:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The fact is that its usually highly critical of the Israeli govt. and most of all on the IDF, it takes the radical lefty B'tzelem's claims as face value. RolesRoice ( talk) 12:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Mixed Arab-Jewish couples Many Israeli Jews oppose mixed relationships, particularly between Jewish women and Arab men due to religious differences and security concerns.
I note that no evidence is given that the opposition to mixed relationships is due solely to religious differences, and security concerns. The opposition could be based on other factors, such as racism or zenophobia. It is also possible that an opposition based on religious differences or security concerns could be seen as racist or zenophobic. I.e why could the Arab men not convert to Judaism, and why should all Arabs be seen as potential terrorists? In other circumstances such a belief that all members of one ethnic group, are all terrorists would be seen as racist. I therefore propose to remove the words, 'due to religious differences and security concerns' from this section. Otherwise this is a leading phrase.
Dalai lama ding dong ( talk) 18:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
The Berber section is a little strange, since it kind of dances around the issue and avoids directly stating the fairly obvious fact that one reason why a lot of Berbers don't like Arabs is that they have been very specifically oppressed by Arab governments claiming to act in the name of Arab nationalism... AnonMoos ( talk) 16:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Some sentence in this article claims that Middle Eastern Christians are Arabs. That is not true. If you refer to the section on Egyptian nationalism for example, you will notice not most Egyptians, not only Egyptian Christians, only consider themselves Egyptians, not Arabs. As for Egyptian Christians (just as an example of ME Christians), here are futher proofs that they are not Arabs and do not even consider themselves Arabs:
-- 152.133.6.7 ( talk) 19:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
It is 100 percent true that there are Arab Christians whether you like it or not, stop disrupting to make a point. -
Falastine fee Qalby (
talk) 19:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Arab nationalism was spearheaded by Arab Christians like Michel Aflaq, George Antonius, George Habash, and Constantin Zureiq. Many Arab Christians identify as Arabs despite not speaking Arabic like James Zogby, Tony Shalhoub, Ray Hanania and even the Copt Akmal Saleh.This is basic knowledge, but then again you claim that Masri Arabic is not from Arabic. This denial is silly.-- Falastine fee Qalby ( talk) 19:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Michel Aflaq converted to Islam lol plz bother to read his article he always related Arabism with Islam -- Unsigned
I am uncertain why
this edit which is detailing the writing of anti arab graffiti is constantly being reverted.
The
reason given that:
"Arabs within Israel are generally Israeli citizens, thus Israelis, and discrimination against Israelis by other Israelis cannot be classified as a conflict between Israelis and others" apart from being
original research, appears to be selectively applied, as much of the content of the Israel section runs foul of this line of thinking.
Best Wishes
AnkhMorpork (
talk) 13:17, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
I have just read the Israel section and it seems like a collection of random quotes and incidents, which does not have any purpose and in no way describes anti-Arabism in Israel. Actually most of the article is like this, but I don't know enough about anti-Arabism in other countries to make a clear argument there. In any case, we don't need to list every negative thing that any Member of Knesset ever said about Arabs, but we do need to provide a background and describe the history of anti-Arabism in Israel.
The content also needs to be generalized and un-recentism-ified: why is the Lieberman plan (only anti-Arab according to some) mentioned in depth? What about the Allon plan? What about hundreds of other Israeli plans that involved resettlement of Arabs or annexation of lands in some form? Direct quotes and unqualified statements should also be removed and replaced with a more objective overview. — Ynhockey ( Talk) 06:30, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX 16:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it is anti-Arabism per se or just anti-Islam, since Portugal came out from under Muslim rule and developed a very strong anti-Islamic sentiment. They seemed to have deliberately seperated Arabs frok others in their Indian Ocean campaigns for brutal treatment, eventually the Arabs drove the Portuguese out.
Portuguese massacre of Arabs
In Malacca
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ol6K4ef_c5wC&pg=PA461#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=R-a2moz_taMC&pg=PT429#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=sJFTWMVybVIC&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=AxWLxjyOUooC&pg=PA339#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=AxWLxjyOUooC&pg=PA340#v=onepage&q&f=false
In East Africa
In Arabia
In Muscat
In India
03:37, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
The Israel section could use some organization. Would chronologically be a good approach? Perhaps listing decades as sub-titles? Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 18:08, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 4 external links on
Anti-Arabism. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:48, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 8 external links on
Anti-Arabism. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
An editor has determined that the edit contains an error somewhere. Please follow the instructions below and mark the
|checked=
to true
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:57, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an example of how cherry-picked information from promary sources can mislead a reader. Actually, the entire movie was about Quds Force officers supporting National Defence Forces and Arab people. The guy said, "When we arrived there were no humans here. The village was deserted." The rest ("There still aren't any humans, only Arabs!") was said by the journalist as a joke. -- Z 18:14, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Hello, algeria's section seems to irritate an arab contributor (bestofmed), but what's the problem ? let's analyse the article:
"Anti-Arabism is a major element of movements known as Berberism that are widespread mainly amongst Algerians of Kabyle and other Berber origin"
It's "BERBERISM", and not anti-arabism, that are widespread among kabyles and berbers. It's sure that some of these people are anti-arab, but not necessary the majority. If there's a real interrogation about this sentence, it's more about the "is a major element" fact. I'm not sure that berberism is essentially based on anti-arabism, it could be even insulting to this movement to say it, claiming that's a racist ideology !!!!
"it has historic roots as Arabs are seen as invaders that occupied Algeria and destroyed its late Roman and early medieval civilization that was considered as an integral part of the West; this invasion is considered to have been the source of the resettlement of Algeria's Berber population in Kabylia and other mountainuous areas"
That's historical facts, easily found in any history book. About the resettlement, we can add that many other berbers went to north, to Iberia and Italy (perhaps it helped the devellopement of an anti-arabism there, but it's not the subject).
"regardless of this the Kabyles and other Berbers have managed to preserve their culture and achieve higher standards of living and education when compared to Algerian Arabs"
About the management of culture and language, there isn't any doubt. About the standart of living, it seems to include essentially the level of industrialisation: Kabylia and Algiers (which is widely populated by kabyles) are the most industrialised regions of Algeria.
I'm not sure if kabyles have a beter standart of living, because algerian arabs have oil allowance. Officially, kabylia does't receive oil's money arguing that's more "riche" than the rest of the country, but this argument doesn't satisfy many kabyles: it look like clearly a racist economical politic.
The comparaison of standarts of living, and even more standarts of education, are more evidents in ALgiers, the only bicultural region of the country: most of middle/upper classes are kabyles. The city is populated widely by kabyles, while arabs are often living in the poor suburbs.
Most of Algiers teachers, doctors, engineers and other hight education jobs are kabyles. It's known essentially by the universities's census (the only racial and religious census in Algeria). Myself a teacher at the nation polytechnical school of Algiers, i can give the last census (2007):
- 83% of students identitfy themselfs as kabyles/berbers
- 11% identify as arabs
- 06% are foreigners (most from subsahara africa, mainly from Mali, Senegal, Congo and Cameroon)
Thid in a national school, in state where berbers represent 25% of total population...
"furthermore many Berbers speak their language and French, are non religious, secular or Evangelical Christian and openly identify with the Western World"
It was said that "many" berbers speak french, so it doesn't mean neither that ALL speak it, nor that there isn't arabs who speak it. This point just discuss the fact that many arabs have a rejection of french language, for identity reason (arabs seeing the french influence as a danger for their arab language and muslim culture). This rejection doesn't exist among kabyles, it explain perhaps their best general level in it. But french stills the first foreign language everywhere in Algeria.
About the religious affiliation, the "many" word doesn't exculde the existence of kabyle (and more often berber) muslims. The quotation of the evangelical movement (and not catholicism, the kabyles christians's majority's church) evok clearely that anti-arabism is developped ONLY by this kind of churchs. It doesn't mean too that all evangelical churchs in Algeria are anti-arabs (there's even some arab protestants !!!).
"many Berber Nationalists view Arabs as a hostile people intent on eradicating their own culture and nation"
It's a political fact, easily comprehensible when you see arab political parties's program (which often include anti-kabylism !!!)
"It is a usually a taboo amongst Berbers to marry someone from the Arab ethnic group, although it is permitted to marry someone from other ethnicities. There are regular Hate incidents between Arabs and Berbers and Anti-Arabism has been accentuated by the Algerian governments anti-Berber policies and violent actions as well as by Islamist (Arab) terror acts against Berbers."
I will not comment the marriage question, because i don't really know if it's the case, but anyway it doesn't seems to me a really important point of the article.
About hate incidents, we can see it very often in shows like football matchs, where kabyle teams are AUTOMATICALLY very badly handled in their trip against arab teams.
Algerian anti-berber policies is a fact. About islamist terror acts, of tourse it doesn't touch only berbers, but when it's the case many berbers see it as an arab attaks against theme. And in general terrorists tend to accentuate this feeling (deliberatly or not) by actions like demanding to algerian government to impose the payment of the "al jizya", a special taxe that jewish and christians are supposed to pay in muslim countries, for kabyles !!!!!
I have many sources that can confirm the article's section, i i will add theme o Nabilus's ones (i ignore Camps's book but i know the 2 others).
In final, the charge of bestofmed that this article support algerian anti-arabism isn't well-founded. It's just a retrospective of the situation in our country, wich explain the origin of anti-arabism, but doesn't support him by any way.
friendly.
Ignacio elias ( talk) 12:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)ignacio elias
Article is lacking a few. Thought I'd offer this one up. Taken in Pattaya Beach, Thailand in April 2002. Safe to say it shows a somewhat anti Arab view. -- Looper5920 20:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Read it, understand it, use it. It isn't optional. Anarchangel ( talk) 22:27, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Ok I'm not commenting about the argument above, but I find the berber, kabyle, Amazigh thing confusing in the text. The proper word to use is Amazigh Jannahred ( talk) 19:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
The section "Israel" is connecting ANY fear of terror with "racism", a term used by all anti Israel and anti Jewish bigotry propaganda, aided by POLITICALLY far-left (including {Ha'aretz) in Israel.
It avoids any linkage to the authentic cause of fear by genuine concerend Israelis, worried about their children safety.
Nor does it mention the very attacks by Israeli/Palestinian Arabs on Israeli (selecting out) civilian - Jews, as real RACISM.
Gades334 ( talk) 19:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)I will remove the POV tag as Gades has failed to bring any rationale. I don't call the above to be rationale for the POV tag because when boiled down, the arguments are 1. This article should be more about antisemitism 2. Israelis are incapable of racism but Palestinians and other Arabs are the real racists and 3. Whatever discrimination Arabs receive is their own fault. I would address Caponica's argument but he is just a sock of Lanternix who is simply reverting because I was in a dispute with him on a different unrelated article, an action known as wikihounding. - Falastine fee Qalby ( talk) 18:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Lanternix/Caponica or whatever you wish to call yourself, if you wish to add material regarding Arab anti-Semitism I suggest you do it in the correct place. That place is not here. Factsontheground ( talk) 08:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
The section about Israel has nothing to do with so called anti Arabism, it has all to do with the conflict from Arabs upon Jews since the 1929 massacre in Hebron by the Mufti (buddy of Adolf Hitler]]) inspiration.
Usualuntilalnd ( talk) 22:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
You want to talk massacres, Caponica/Usualuntilalnd? Talk about the Deir Yassin massacre where Irgun killed over 100 unarmed civilian villagers leading to the fleeing of thousands of Palestinians from their homes. But all this has nothing to do with the subject. You have to provide a valid justification for the POV tag, so far you have not. - Falastine fee Qalby ( talk) 23:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone disagree that the repeated 'edit war' by 'Falastine fee Qalby' is a bigoted Palestinian militant propaganda work of the cheapes kind, nothing encylopedic?
It is not far fetched from sense to mention (Wiki) terror attacks by Israeli Arabs, vital to understand Israelis feelings.
Here are my added lines that 'Falastine fee Qalby' repeatedly removes with ever changing sepposed "reasons"...
See also related Palestinian terror Israeli Arabs involvement in terror attacks on Israeli civilians Islamic terrorism Jerusalem bulldozer attack Mercaz HaRav shooting in Israel involving also Israeli-Arabs, to understand Israelis' peocupation.
Usualuntilalnd ( talk) 23:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
First of all, your personal attack is out of line and if you make one again, I will report you. I haven't made an edit to the article other than to remove nonsense like your poorly worded fragment that contains a made-up word. How silly is that sentence by the way, you are directing people to go look at other articles to "understand Israelis' peocupation" What is peocupation??? Your edit is not only inane but it is also nonconstructive. Again you provide no rationale just whining and personal attacks. -- Falastine fee Qalby ( talk) 23:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
There was a {{ verify credibility}} tag on a citation from Al-Ahram Weekly. The tag was dated Feb 2008, and I could not find any discussion on the talk pages about why it was tagged. Looking at the website, this appears to be regular news publication that meets at least the basic standards of WP:RS. So absent any specific reason for challenging it, I've removed the tag. -- RL0919 ( talk) 03:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Why would this not be anti-Arab? Many of the links on this page do not explicitly say that one event or another is anti-Arab. In checking, I found that the Ivory Coast section does not even seem relevant to this article. The link is about anti-foreigners, not specifically anti-Arab. -- Shuki ( talk) 20:29, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I think there are some very different things, which are all pushed together in this article, when perhaps they either need different sections or just cutting out.
The Fort Hood shooting took place two days ago. Currently, it is impossible to say that it has "significantly" increased Anti-Arabism in the United States. Please leave this part out until some future point (if ever) that an increase in this sentiment can be verified. Grsz 11 21:39, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Hey, quick question. I can't find anything that says that the attack was funded by the Arab American Institute, and that information in the article has no source. It isn't mentioned in any of the articles on James Zogby or the Institute. Unless it can be proven, I have a feeling that it is just racist vandalism and needs to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.114.161 ( talk) 04:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I find it odd that Ayn Rand is given such prominence in the discussion of anti-Arabism in the US. After an introductory sentence, the section immediately quotes Rand speaking in 1974, then jumps to 1991. The article almost gives the impression that Rand was the premier anti-Arab activist in the US prior to the 90s, which is hardly the case. (She seems to have spoken of Arabs relatively little. The quoted comments are from a Q&A session after a speech on an unrelated subject.) I edited the lead-in to give the quote a better sense of historical context, but it still seems like undue weight on one person. I'm no expert in anti-Arabism, but surely there are other, more prominent examples from before 1991 that could/should be added to provide more history? -- RL0919 ( talk) 23:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
How is it not OR to say this simply anti-Saudi sentiment? YEs, he's Arab. If a Polish guy is vilified for being catholic, that's anti-Catholic sentiment, not anti-Polish sentiment.-- Urthogie 16:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Many Muslims do drink alcohol. Many followers of every religion fail to obey all its injunctions Manormadman ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)Manormadman
Oh I see you were talking about the cartoon. I thought you were talking about the image taken from Thailand. Bless sins 17:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The "racism" shouting has become more political, less of substance, at least from critics' view have to be (added) stated, if the Arab organizations' POV is already presented so much in the article, which is one big rant of bashing Israel.
1) Where's Israelis' worry from Arab racism's attack (specifically targeting) on Jews of security in all of this, as if it doesn't play the role.
2) Criticism of mixed-marriages, is "racist" and not based on religious and safety concern at all? Who's POV is that? What does this have to do with anti-Arabism.
3) In this anti-Israel rant, affirmative action by Israel and favouring Arabs over Jews is omitted. Where's the balance and objectivity???
4) To whoever has added an organization that rescues Jews entrapped by Arabs, it is a religious org. its motives are religious never about "Arab ethnicity."
---
Criticism of the Arab charges of "racism"
Israel has implemented affirmative action in different areas [1], And on campus --critics argue-- there's a constant favoritism of Arabs over Jews, a de-facto affirmative action. [2] [3]
Rabin's government contributed to the introduction of affirmative action [4] under there some affirmative action programs Arab citizens pay much lower lease rates than do Jewish c=itizens [5].
An rexample in the finacial sector, from an Address by the Governor of the Bank of Israel, 13 Nov 2007:
We publish tenders for the populations entitled to affirmative action, and in other tenders too the approach to candidates from those sectors is one of affirmative action. Tenders are passed directly to several organizations that represent those populations, and are published also in Arabic. [6]
An example of unfairness towards Jews:
Upper Nazareth was established for the Jews as affirmative action, because the Arabs would not let them live in Lower Nazareth. Today, Arabs live in Upper Nazareth but in Arab Nazareth there are still no Jews. [7]
Some have asked if companies' Minority Discounts" for Israeli Arabs constitute reverse discrimination. [8]
A writer titled (the false "racism" terminology on awareness of anti-Jewish Arab racist attacks targeting Jews [9] [10] [11]) it: "Israelis aren't 'racist,' they're worried" [12]. Others have spoken out on describing Israel’s concerns as "security pretexts" and translating those genuinely held concerns into policies supposedly promoting "apartheid" and "racism" - as pure incitement and the real racism, it has also been noted example-facts which these "critics" ignore, like: there are roads in the Arab-Palestinian West Bank that are closed to Jews, where the real racist-apartheid side is at. [13].
Under title: Yes, Israel's a democracy J. Dayan wrote in the LA Times (May, 2010) about Tibi's using inflammatory words like "racist" and "fascist." As is his style, Tibi failed to back up his white-hot rhetoric with hard facts. the writer backs up the factual equality status of Arabs in all aspects with facts on the ground, and goes on in saying: "The Arab Israeli lawmaker who accused the Jewish state of having 'racist' and 'fascist' policies enjoys rights and freedoms he wouldn't find anywhere else in the Middle East." [14]
Even not agreeing with Israel Beiteinu's Liberman's policies, the left winger liberal Haaretz had a piece: "Lieberman is no racist," and it's an injustice to brand him as such, for him, for his voters, it stems from a tendency to delegitimize and demonize people with whom certain politicians have a disagreemen with. Emphesizing that:
What's racist is denying the Jewish people a state of their own. Certain Arab Knesset members talk incessantly about the Palestinian people's rights, including their own state. But in the same breath they refuse to acknowledge Israel as the state of the Jewish people and deny the very existence of a Jewish people as a nation with national rights. The person who deserves the racist epithet is MK Jamal Zahalka, who attended the conference of hate in Geneva and called himself "a victim of Israel's racist apartheid" while serving as a member of the Israeli parliament. [15]
RolesRoice ( talk) 22:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
With all due respect, Even according to your POV, (though wishing to remove the affirmative actions part, yet) the Jpost source (& other) criticism of branding worry of terror as "racist" should be included to balance out this all-out anti-Israel bashing, largely (even the Guardian is) based on such controversial figures as infamous Ahmed Tibi. RolesRoice ( talk) 19:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
So is the anti-Israel rant, the Guardian, an oped piece based on Ahmed Tibi, who himself is not a RS. The right-Arutz 7 is as reliable as left-Haaretz.
Boi - Address by the Governor of the Bank of Israel- 13 Nov 2007:
We publish tenders for the populations entitled to affirmative action, and in other tenders too the approach to candidates from those sectors is one of affirmative action. Tenders are passed directly to several organizations that represent those populations, and are published also in Arabic.
http://www.bankisrael.gov.il/deptdata/neumim/neum250e.htm RolesRoice ( talk) 19:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Jpost - Center
Haaretz, peacenow, B'tzelem - radical leftwing.
Yedioth - left.
Arutz 7 - Right.
JTF, Kahana, Masada - radical right.
As the anti Israel rant says that Israeli Arabs are disciriminated against, that's exactly where the (relevance!) affirmative action aspect has to be stated.
In accordance with your argumenT that the anti-Israel portion is OK because it mentions/names Tibi as a source, so can the
Haaretz article that refutes him be named:
[2]
RolesRoice (
talk) 20:20, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
To Hobit, in reality the recent action by nableezy is an orchestrated attack, it was due to this [3]. PS, I didn't understand what a an intifada-blog (ei) is doing there as a source. RolesRoice ( talk) 20:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I am glad the truth can be funny. Thanks for replacing the trashy EI with something else. If the Arabs would often exchange smiles with Israelis (but with respect!) maybe there would be peace. RolesRoice ( talk) 21:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Your assessment of what is a RS in Israeli media is your own personal POV. However, the actual status of the Israeli media: mainstream; left; radical left; right, ect. are factual, as somenone that knows Israeli society, nothing "funny" as you tried to make it, as per your own personal view here. RolesRoice ( talk) 22:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The fact is that its usually highly critical of the Israeli govt. and most of all on the IDF, it takes the radical lefty B'tzelem's claims as face value. RolesRoice ( talk) 12:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Mixed Arab-Jewish couples Many Israeli Jews oppose mixed relationships, particularly between Jewish women and Arab men due to religious differences and security concerns.
I note that no evidence is given that the opposition to mixed relationships is due solely to religious differences, and security concerns. The opposition could be based on other factors, such as racism or zenophobia. It is also possible that an opposition based on religious differences or security concerns could be seen as racist or zenophobic. I.e why could the Arab men not convert to Judaism, and why should all Arabs be seen as potential terrorists? In other circumstances such a belief that all members of one ethnic group, are all terrorists would be seen as racist. I therefore propose to remove the words, 'due to religious differences and security concerns' from this section. Otherwise this is a leading phrase.
Dalai lama ding dong ( talk) 18:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
The Berber section is a little strange, since it kind of dances around the issue and avoids directly stating the fairly obvious fact that one reason why a lot of Berbers don't like Arabs is that they have been very specifically oppressed by Arab governments claiming to act in the name of Arab nationalism... AnonMoos ( talk) 16:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Some sentence in this article claims that Middle Eastern Christians are Arabs. That is not true. If you refer to the section on Egyptian nationalism for example, you will notice not most Egyptians, not only Egyptian Christians, only consider themselves Egyptians, not Arabs. As for Egyptian Christians (just as an example of ME Christians), here are futher proofs that they are not Arabs and do not even consider themselves Arabs:
-- 152.133.6.7 ( talk) 19:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
It is 100 percent true that there are Arab Christians whether you like it or not, stop disrupting to make a point. -
Falastine fee Qalby (
talk) 19:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Arab nationalism was spearheaded by Arab Christians like Michel Aflaq, George Antonius, George Habash, and Constantin Zureiq. Many Arab Christians identify as Arabs despite not speaking Arabic like James Zogby, Tony Shalhoub, Ray Hanania and even the Copt Akmal Saleh.This is basic knowledge, but then again you claim that Masri Arabic is not from Arabic. This denial is silly.-- Falastine fee Qalby ( talk) 19:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Michel Aflaq converted to Islam lol plz bother to read his article he always related Arabism with Islam -- Unsigned
I am uncertain why
this edit which is detailing the writing of anti arab graffiti is constantly being reverted.
The
reason given that:
"Arabs within Israel are generally Israeli citizens, thus Israelis, and discrimination against Israelis by other Israelis cannot be classified as a conflict between Israelis and others" apart from being
original research, appears to be selectively applied, as much of the content of the Israel section runs foul of this line of thinking.
Best Wishes
AnkhMorpork (
talk) 13:17, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
I have just read the Israel section and it seems like a collection of random quotes and incidents, which does not have any purpose and in no way describes anti-Arabism in Israel. Actually most of the article is like this, but I don't know enough about anti-Arabism in other countries to make a clear argument there. In any case, we don't need to list every negative thing that any Member of Knesset ever said about Arabs, but we do need to provide a background and describe the history of anti-Arabism in Israel.
The content also needs to be generalized and un-recentism-ified: why is the Lieberman plan (only anti-Arab according to some) mentioned in depth? What about the Allon plan? What about hundreds of other Israeli plans that involved resettlement of Arabs or annexation of lands in some form? Direct quotes and unqualified statements should also be removed and replaced with a more objective overview. — Ynhockey ( Talk) 06:30, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX 16:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it is anti-Arabism per se or just anti-Islam, since Portugal came out from under Muslim rule and developed a very strong anti-Islamic sentiment. They seemed to have deliberately seperated Arabs frok others in their Indian Ocean campaigns for brutal treatment, eventually the Arabs drove the Portuguese out.
Portuguese massacre of Arabs
In Malacca
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ol6K4ef_c5wC&pg=PA461#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=R-a2moz_taMC&pg=PT429#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=sJFTWMVybVIC&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=AxWLxjyOUooC&pg=PA339#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=AxWLxjyOUooC&pg=PA340#v=onepage&q&f=false
In East Africa
In Arabia
In Muscat
In India
03:37, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
The Israel section could use some organization. Would chronologically be a good approach? Perhaps listing decades as sub-titles? Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 18:08, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 4 external links on
Anti-Arabism. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:48, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 8 external links on
Anti-Arabism. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
An editor has determined that the edit contains an error somewhere. Please follow the instructions below and mark the
|checked=
to true
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:57, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an example of how cherry-picked information from promary sources can mislead a reader. Actually, the entire movie was about Quds Force officers supporting National Defence Forces and Arab people. The guy said, "When we arrived there were no humans here. The village was deserted." The rest ("There still aren't any humans, only Arabs!") was said by the journalist as a joke. -- Z 18:14, 25 February 2016 (UTC)