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Why does the fourth paragraph of the introduction perpetuate the American college myth that the Rhineland was 'retaken' (in 1936)? This implies that it had been away from Germany by the Versailles Treaty? The Rhineland was remilitiarized, not 'retaken'. Norvo 20:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I have just amended the article and restructued it a bid (subsections for the Anschluss). Especially some additions in the second part of the article. Could not find enough material for the reactions section (french, US, some newspapers?). In addition I've added a couple of photos.
hope my changes were improvements. Themanwithoutapast 17:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Regarding section: Austrian identity and the "victim theory" I have made the following changes:
I have added a critic to the ‘Victim theory’, based on the information already available to the reader from the same article, and also included a quote from Mein Kampf, which illustrates how the sentiment of inclusiveness with Germany was prevalent in Austria (even before WWI) at least to some sectors of the lower classes. I hope it is well received, but if not, I hope that some of my peers can improved it or comment on it. Att. Carlos R. Tirado
I made larger changes to the first part of the article, the events of the Anschluss. My sources are both the german wikipedia article as well as various internet articles (in german) on the topic.
While I sympathize with the second part of the article ("understanding the word"), it appears to me that the last paragraph suggests all Austrians during 1945 and today are not accepting Austria's Nazi history. More or less autocritical pressure from writers such as Bernhard and occasional criticism from outside Austria are distinct phenomenon which have nonetheless conspired to force less-than-damning Austrian self-conceptions to contend with other, radically divergent views. -> this seems rather cryptical) I do not dispute that the "Entnazifizierung" wasn't as effective as in Germany after WW2, however I think that the paragraph - as it stands now - suggests that only a handful of political dissenters like Bernhard did not (and still do not) think Austria was merely a victim of Hitler's Nazis. At least more than 50 % do not accept the victim theory as of today (however this figure was certainly lower up to the 1980s) and see Austria as guilty as Germany for Nationalsocialists crimes subsequent to 1938. Maybe the original editor of this paragraph could consider to edit it to give it a more NPOV? Themanwithoutapast 01:31, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
"Greater German" should be seen in the historic context: In the 19th century, there was a dilemma about how to unify Germany. On one side, the großdeutsche Lösung (Greater German solution) was proposed: Großdeutschland should include all German states, including Prussia and Austria. On the other side, there was an existing Northern German union (I don't remember its name just now) dominated by Prussia, and the easiest solution to unify Germany seemed to extend this union to all of Germany. However, Austria did not want to be part of a Prussia-dominated union, and somehow, one arrived at a kleindeutsche Lösung (Smaller German solution): to unify all German states except Austria (and Switzerland, which didn't take part anyway). The Third Reich alluded to this 19th-century dillema by reusing the word Großdeutschland, probably to express a "relief" that finally, all Germany was unified.
(The großdeutsche Lösung should be distinguished from pangermanism, a movement that tried to subject even countries where only a German minority lived under German hegemony, adopted later by Hitler.)
I also think that Austria and Hungary were together long before already, so there would have been a problem of what to do with Hungary in a Großdeutschland. In the 19th century (perhaps about 1867??), there was a large reorganisation of Austria-Hungary, which led to the double monarchy and gave Hungary some more freedom from Austria. Therefore, the author of the article may have got the impression that Austria-Hungary did only exist from then on, while that state was quite a bit older. -- dnjansen, 1 July 2004
The section "Understanding the Word: Historical and Literary Legacy of the 1938 Anschluss" is very interesting and relevant to this article, but it seems a bit too POV and essay like at the moment. I'm going to try to reword it a bit, when I get a chance, but if anyone feels like doing so I would invite them to have a try. Peregrine981 04:34, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
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The German orthography reform of 1996 did not abolish the "ß" totally. (The Swiss, however, did -- in 1938.) That man is still spelled "Dollfuß", because the ß/ss is preceded by a long vowel. -- Langec 20:07, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Would this article basically suite the purposes for a redirect of German annexation of Austria? Oberiko 00:15, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I changed the following passage:
That's not true. (It is true for German spelling, of course.) Is the German spelling pre-1996 worth mentioning in this article? I would favour removing the entire paragraph. Arbor 12:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
So according to COD the capitalised usage is different from the noncapitalised one. On the other hand, Webster's II (1984) and Collins (1991) contain only the capitalised form. Regarding typographical conventions, my COD is pretty well-equipped with non-English letters, and its conventions don't seem to be a matter of typographical convenience. For example, the entry under angstrom suggests ångström as an alternative spelling, and facade appears with façade. But still no mention of Anschluß, not even as an alternative. Until further evidence is produced I think it is safe to say that the spelling with -ss is correct even before 1996. You and I may think it's weird, or misguided, or a sad display of typographical poverty or parochialism. But I don't think that's for us to decide. The Wikipedia article shouldn't claim that Anschluß was the correct spelling (or even just a valid alternative) before 1996 until somebody actually digs out some evidence in favour for it. Arbor 11:25, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Just so I'm clear, why is so much time being spent debating the inclusion of a German character in the English spelling of the word? Buffy, if you want to make this point on the German language wiki, you could do so easily. I don't understand why you insist on including a non-english character and a non-english spelling in an english language document. Arbor is correct, Buffy, you are not. And no, I'm not going to sign anything, save your recriminations.
I removed the last sentence of the section Overall assessment because was horrendously biased. (Biased, by the way, to a view I hold myself. I do not disagree with the conclusion, which belongs to history texts or essays, or maybe even other Encylopedias with a less strict policy on value judgements. But it does not belong to Wikipedia.)
I would favour removing the entire section, because Wikipedia really isn't a good forum for giving overall assessments in the first place, and certainly not about subjects that are overly controversial. Here is the paragraph in question, with the sentence I just removed stricken out:
I have no qualms about the first sentence. The second sentence, on the other hand, is just windbaggy, mildly condescending triviality and contains no statement of fact. If on the other hand it is viewed as a statement of an opinion it needs to be attributed to somebody else. The third sentence was downright soapboxy.
So this leaves, in my opinion, the first sentence as the only candidate for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. As it stands, it belongs to the introduction, not to a conclusion, which in its conception is conceptually misguided. (Unless, of course, it transforms into a well-referenced overview of the current status of Anschluss assessment in Austria and abroad. Such a section would be wonderful.)
Had this article not already passed several iterations of peer review, I would remove it boldly. But with the current status it seemed wiser to invite debate here. Arbor 11:41, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article has problems with bias in other areas too, e.g. (POV words and phrases in italics):
/s
I previously recast most of that area into NPOV, but the original author reverted it back to the biased approach. I'm glad others are also watching so that this article does not serve as a vehicle for propaganda instead of upholding the Wikipedia standard for NPOV. -- StanZegel 21:11, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I restored it not because I thought it was perfect as is but because I thought it should not disappear without a trace, arrested by the NPOV police. I regard my failure as commenting that it needed discussion and then failing promptly to open such a discussion. I'm still mulling over how not to say this polemically, but I think it is also overstated to call propaganda and therefore contraband an attempt to identify elements of propaganda in a particularly prevalent account of dubious credibility. It is intellectually indefensible to allow this to pass with critique. Rather than objecting to NPOV wording and asking for a revision of the argument, you also chose initially to make a radical edit without taking it up here. Thank you for bringing this back here, but let's be a little more balanced in how we seek to restore balance. Buffyg 22:57, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid Stan is quite right in his objection. The best thing, Buffyg, would be to find somebody to whom you can attribute the above viewpoint, which makes the article automatically POV. The next best thing would be to introduce weasel terms and thus neutralise the section. Ironically, that would produce a paragraph with the exact opposite meaning to what you intend:
As you can see, now it becomes a (neutral but) unexciting statement of two opposing viewpoints, which cannot be attributed to anybody and hence serves as a bad introduction to the subject. I would much prefer if you dug out some references, so that this paragraph is stronger. Arbor 06:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Again, I began by saying that I don't think the word is perfect and that it needed to be worked out here rather than simply excised with an NPOV comment on the edit. And, actually, I do have a similar remark from Raul Hilberg's mouth later in the article, but I don't believe that this entirely addresses POV/NPOV. My point is not to say that the Anschluss cannot be viewed as the military annexation of Austria but that to view it as "simply" that would be to "misunderstand" its essence, which would not in any case provide anything like absolution but does have the effect of changing the subject (hence my wording "tends to conceal"). In any case, to make such a claim without remarking on its limited analytic value and obvious propaganda value would be to set aside a number of basic facts presented elsewhere in the article, and to simply reiterate an argument without quotation or attribution and in any case without pointing out what immediately contradicts it is POV of a subtle sort. Certainly you can always resort to attributing remarks to "some" and "others," but this is below the Gallup level of presenting opinions and does little to inform the reader or grasp essential truths. For these reasons I don't think think your weasel proposal achieves neutral, although it is so blandly and equivocally stated that one drops one's guard and is therefore less likely to call it out. Buffyg 07:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
StanZegel, I do not think I completely understand the specific POV problems you are citing.
Martyg, the "myth that..." is the most blatant of the POV passages, and the one that caused me to raise the issue. Generally my (overstated) feeling is that anything that has an adjective needs closer review for POV problems, which is why I pointed out the some of the adjacent language too. You raise an excellent point, that of the relative importance of WW2 vs the Shoah, and any article that elevates the smaller over the larger certainly reflects POV.
As for "crimes" I marked it because I think that is a loaded word ("I do what is necessary in the circumstances, you do the expedient thing, what he does is criminal") that is unnecessary and vague: like history, ex post facto laws are written by the victors, and the losers are declared "criminals" instead of merely the losers. Was Stalin's treatment of captured enemy soldiers a crime? If so, against what specific statute or treaty? Stalin's USSR was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War because he did not care about reciprocal treatment of POWs. His orders to the soviet solders were simple: fight to the death, and any Soyuz soldier who allowed himself to be captured instead of killed had therefore disobeyed orders and Stalin was not concerned about the subsequent treatment of that soldier. That lack of concern of reciprocity allowed him to treat captured German soldiers as he did. So "crimes" is not a simple subject, and using the term here is not necessary (except to reinforce POV) and thus I called attention to it too.
I do think this article has gotten way off track, way beyond the Anschulss, dealing as it attempts to do, with "guilt" for political activities. If it were NPOV and dealing with such extraneous matters, it would also explain how, 20 years before, the victors had dismembered Habsburg Austria, ripping away the lands of the Bohemian crown and the breadbasket of Hungary. "Der Rest ist Österreich" might have been in the minds of some who wished a restoration of the status quo ante bellum, and looked up the Donau at the economic recovery Germany had experienced after repossessing the Ruhrgebiet and reasserting control of its own destiny. History may always be written by the victors, and is always done so to emphasize the justice of victor's actions and the evil of the losers', but in a NPOV article we should be more concerned with stating the facts (after all, no one is wholly bad and acts for what he considers to be good reasons --although we may disagree with those reasons), and helping the reader to understand the rationale of both sides of any issue is important. In any event, much of the material in this article is irrelevant to the subject of it and should, I believe, be removed to a more suitable place and recast into a dispassionate and impartial exposition of the subject. -- StanZegel 13:09, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, I have read the article now, and am quite surprised how biased it is, especially given its current featured status. The passage pointed to by Stan is maybe the worst paragraph, but there are similar passages throughout the articles 4th section (Legacy). Look, Martg and Buffy, I share these viewpoints. But they don't belong here. Unless they are much, much better sourced. So either this article is heavily POV, or it is poorly sourced. I would encourage you warmly to give this piece a very careful second look. Err on the side of caution. Here are some of the things I noted:
I will poke about a bit myself, but it's probably better if most of the cleaning comes from the main authors (after all, you know what you are talking about). I am confident that we can get the article fixed in no time. Arbor 13:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I originally came to this article in search of the text of the question Schuschnigg was submitting to the electorate at the plebicite. Not the nature or jist of the question, but the actual wording. I hope that someone who knows more about this subject will be able to add the text to this article as it undergoes revision and augmentation. -- StanZegel 03:01, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Several years of unhappy junior membership in a coalition with the SPÖ had brought discredit to the party's liberal elements.
has to be cut for pov reasons.--
Fenice 16:27, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Due to formal reasons it seems to be impossible to get this on the farc list. This is a copy of the farc request:
Reason: The article has several problems:
After my NPOVing and getting rid of a few weasel terms, I actually think that the POV issues are gone. I've decided to Be Bold and remove the tag. Borisblue 8 July 2005 01:20 (UTC)
I think the NPOV tag shouldbe reapplied, it is still biased as if u read down towards teh bottom it tries to blaim the Austrian people for teh Anschluss, like someone saying a woman "was aksing for it" when they are raped because they were wearing tight clothes
Fenice, reverting without using the user page? And after I have cited both encarta and britannica? tut tut Borisblue 8 July 2005 16:32 (UTC)
OK, this comes from a twice merged talk, so it's messy Borisblue 8 July 2005 17:10 (UTC) Where have I reverted anything?-- Fenice 8 July 2005 16:36 (UTC)
I've removed the tag. Although minor POV points still exist here and there, I am certain a reader going through the article will understand that most Austrians supported the Anschluss as a unification. Listen, I don't want to make an enemy out of you. Read my edit history on the article and you will see that all my edits shifted the article toward your point of view. I have no POV to push; I just want to save what is in my opinion a very good article from being de-FA'd. And please don't make references to "cheap asian products", this may be interpreted as an ethnic slur. Borisblue 8 July 2005 15:51 (UTC)
so why didn't you do this? We both agree that a) significant amounts of people and sources call it annexation. and b)The Austrians supported the Anschluss, so it wasn't a real invasion, so what precisely are we arguing about?? Borisblue 8 July 2005 16:44 (UTC)
Your place or mine? I'd say we are even on slurs now. The right place for further discussion is Talk:Anschluss.-- Fenice 8 July 2005 17:02 (UTC)
I have reworded the first paragraph in the lead and in "the word", the second paragraph of "the word" needs to be sourced and is acutally quite contradictory. The translation of Vereinigung is uniting or unification. And then there is the socket-association again, the word Anschluss is really used for electrical (physical) connections, but that is not relevant here.-- Fenice 8 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)
There's still a request to feature this article on the main page. Have all the POV issues been sorted out? →Raul654 16:38, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
Re: the reverting going on, do you guys think there's too much fair use stuff here for an FA? Borisblue 01:33, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The sentence
The events of March 12, 1938, was the first major step in Adolf Hitler's long-desired reunification of Germany with the land that was lost from the former German Empire before it was annexed at the end of WW1 by the neighbouring Allied countries.
is a little unwieldy and confusing, IMO. "land that was lost from ...annexed...by...allied countries" while true of the Saar region, does not characterise austria accurately. there is also a pronoun-referent confusion - does "it was annexed" refers to the "former German Empire" or "the land that was ..."?
How about the following ...
The Union of Austria with Germany was one of the steps taken by Hitler which brought areas he regarded(?) as German territory under the domination of the Third Reich, in violation of terms of the Treaty of Versailles. The Anchluss followed the return of Saar region to Germany and preceded the ceding of Sudetenland, and later, the invasions of Czechoslovakia and Poland which culminated in the Second World War. Control over such these areas would provide Germany with important resources such as iron and coal in the Saar region and rich agricultural land in Poland.
i propose the following additional text.
With Austria and Sudetenland, Hitler followed similar tactics of encouraging German/Nazi(?) movements in the region and bringing strong(?) diplomatic pressure on the Allied nations to desist from enforcing the terms of the Treaty of Versailles which protected the prevailing national borders.
In the sentence on international response, only the actions of UK is mentioned. i think "UK" needs to be replaced with "allied countries" instead, as french and the US response was more or less the same and they had the same(similar?) obligations as UK under Versailles, League of Nations and international law. perhaps the reactions of italy, czechoslovakia and poland to the event can also be mentioned here. -- Doldrums 02:38, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
--
I like that article. Well done! At the beginning of the article the Saar region is mentioned; should the Rhineland's return (on March 7, 1936) to Germany from France also be mentioned in the article? QUITTNER 142.150.49.166 17:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
--
Can someone verify that this picture is from the Anschluss. I remember seeing it being described as taken when the Nazis entered the Sudtenland. Roadrunner 03:15, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
This article really needs a map of Germany before and after Anschluss. (Something like this or this, perhaps.) – Quadell ( talk) ( sleuth) 13:13, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Why does this have a VfD?
Maybe it's worth mentioning that the term now has a wider meaning and it is used in geopolitics to describe a state's policy of anexation of another state, on the pretext of cultural, historic, ethnic, historic or lingvistic unity. -- Radufan 15:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The translations connection or political union for Anschluss are not adequate. Both words describe a connection between equal entities, while Anschluss (from the word anschließen) means connecting a smaller subsystem to a greater system of the same kind. There is always a Anschluss of on thing to another, never the Anschluss of two things (with each other)! The Nazis most likely used this more technically term with a certain purpose. I suggest link-up as translation.
(It's not what the Anschluss was about, but what meaning the word has in German.)
-- Abe Lincoln 12:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Is the result of 99.73% for annexation considered genuine? If not, the figure should be qualified. Dynzmoar ( talk) 13:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Chipppy ( talk) 06:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
The infobox should be changed from History of German to History of Austria. Although this event effected both countries it is somehow woeful to see one of the sadest, but most important recent chapters of Austrian history being listed under History of Germany. Perhaps you might consider a change of that. The protest against the Anschluss by Mexico at the League of Nations by foreign minister Eduardo Hay, as the only country to do so, should also be mentioned. -- El bes ( talk) 19:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
He hates jews — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:58C0:4890:B44F:8C59:756C:15DB ( talk) 15:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Why does the fourth paragraph of the introduction perpetuate the American college myth that the Rhineland was 'retaken' (in 1936)? This implies that it had been away from Germany by the Versailles Treaty? The Rhineland was remilitiarized, not 'retaken'. Norvo 20:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I have just amended the article and restructued it a bid (subsections for the Anschluss). Especially some additions in the second part of the article. Could not find enough material for the reactions section (french, US, some newspapers?). In addition I've added a couple of photos.
hope my changes were improvements. Themanwithoutapast 17:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Regarding section: Austrian identity and the "victim theory" I have made the following changes:
I have added a critic to the ‘Victim theory’, based on the information already available to the reader from the same article, and also included a quote from Mein Kampf, which illustrates how the sentiment of inclusiveness with Germany was prevalent in Austria (even before WWI) at least to some sectors of the lower classes. I hope it is well received, but if not, I hope that some of my peers can improved it or comment on it. Att. Carlos R. Tirado
I made larger changes to the first part of the article, the events of the Anschluss. My sources are both the german wikipedia article as well as various internet articles (in german) on the topic.
While I sympathize with the second part of the article ("understanding the word"), it appears to me that the last paragraph suggests all Austrians during 1945 and today are not accepting Austria's Nazi history. More or less autocritical pressure from writers such as Bernhard and occasional criticism from outside Austria are distinct phenomenon which have nonetheless conspired to force less-than-damning Austrian self-conceptions to contend with other, radically divergent views. -> this seems rather cryptical) I do not dispute that the "Entnazifizierung" wasn't as effective as in Germany after WW2, however I think that the paragraph - as it stands now - suggests that only a handful of political dissenters like Bernhard did not (and still do not) think Austria was merely a victim of Hitler's Nazis. At least more than 50 % do not accept the victim theory as of today (however this figure was certainly lower up to the 1980s) and see Austria as guilty as Germany for Nationalsocialists crimes subsequent to 1938. Maybe the original editor of this paragraph could consider to edit it to give it a more NPOV? Themanwithoutapast 01:31, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
"Greater German" should be seen in the historic context: In the 19th century, there was a dilemma about how to unify Germany. On one side, the großdeutsche Lösung (Greater German solution) was proposed: Großdeutschland should include all German states, including Prussia and Austria. On the other side, there was an existing Northern German union (I don't remember its name just now) dominated by Prussia, and the easiest solution to unify Germany seemed to extend this union to all of Germany. However, Austria did not want to be part of a Prussia-dominated union, and somehow, one arrived at a kleindeutsche Lösung (Smaller German solution): to unify all German states except Austria (and Switzerland, which didn't take part anyway). The Third Reich alluded to this 19th-century dillema by reusing the word Großdeutschland, probably to express a "relief" that finally, all Germany was unified.
(The großdeutsche Lösung should be distinguished from pangermanism, a movement that tried to subject even countries where only a German minority lived under German hegemony, adopted later by Hitler.)
I also think that Austria and Hungary were together long before already, so there would have been a problem of what to do with Hungary in a Großdeutschland. In the 19th century (perhaps about 1867??), there was a large reorganisation of Austria-Hungary, which led to the double monarchy and gave Hungary some more freedom from Austria. Therefore, the author of the article may have got the impression that Austria-Hungary did only exist from then on, while that state was quite a bit older. -- dnjansen, 1 July 2004
The section "Understanding the Word: Historical and Literary Legacy of the 1938 Anschluss" is very interesting and relevant to this article, but it seems a bit too POV and essay like at the moment. I'm going to try to reword it a bit, when I get a chance, but if anyone feels like doing so I would invite them to have a try. Peregrine981 04:34, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
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The German orthography reform of 1996 did not abolish the "ß" totally. (The Swiss, however, did -- in 1938.) That man is still spelled "Dollfuß", because the ß/ss is preceded by a long vowel. -- Langec 20:07, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Would this article basically suite the purposes for a redirect of German annexation of Austria? Oberiko 00:15, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I changed the following passage:
That's not true. (It is true for German spelling, of course.) Is the German spelling pre-1996 worth mentioning in this article? I would favour removing the entire paragraph. Arbor 12:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
So according to COD the capitalised usage is different from the noncapitalised one. On the other hand, Webster's II (1984) and Collins (1991) contain only the capitalised form. Regarding typographical conventions, my COD is pretty well-equipped with non-English letters, and its conventions don't seem to be a matter of typographical convenience. For example, the entry under angstrom suggests ångström as an alternative spelling, and facade appears with façade. But still no mention of Anschluß, not even as an alternative. Until further evidence is produced I think it is safe to say that the spelling with -ss is correct even before 1996. You and I may think it's weird, or misguided, or a sad display of typographical poverty or parochialism. But I don't think that's for us to decide. The Wikipedia article shouldn't claim that Anschluß was the correct spelling (or even just a valid alternative) before 1996 until somebody actually digs out some evidence in favour for it. Arbor 11:25, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Just so I'm clear, why is so much time being spent debating the inclusion of a German character in the English spelling of the word? Buffy, if you want to make this point on the German language wiki, you could do so easily. I don't understand why you insist on including a non-english character and a non-english spelling in an english language document. Arbor is correct, Buffy, you are not. And no, I'm not going to sign anything, save your recriminations.
I removed the last sentence of the section Overall assessment because was horrendously biased. (Biased, by the way, to a view I hold myself. I do not disagree with the conclusion, which belongs to history texts or essays, or maybe even other Encylopedias with a less strict policy on value judgements. But it does not belong to Wikipedia.)
I would favour removing the entire section, because Wikipedia really isn't a good forum for giving overall assessments in the first place, and certainly not about subjects that are overly controversial. Here is the paragraph in question, with the sentence I just removed stricken out:
I have no qualms about the first sentence. The second sentence, on the other hand, is just windbaggy, mildly condescending triviality and contains no statement of fact. If on the other hand it is viewed as a statement of an opinion it needs to be attributed to somebody else. The third sentence was downright soapboxy.
So this leaves, in my opinion, the first sentence as the only candidate for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. As it stands, it belongs to the introduction, not to a conclusion, which in its conception is conceptually misguided. (Unless, of course, it transforms into a well-referenced overview of the current status of Anschluss assessment in Austria and abroad. Such a section would be wonderful.)
Had this article not already passed several iterations of peer review, I would remove it boldly. But with the current status it seemed wiser to invite debate here. Arbor 11:41, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article has problems with bias in other areas too, e.g. (POV words and phrases in italics):
/s
I previously recast most of that area into NPOV, but the original author reverted it back to the biased approach. I'm glad others are also watching so that this article does not serve as a vehicle for propaganda instead of upholding the Wikipedia standard for NPOV. -- StanZegel 21:11, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I restored it not because I thought it was perfect as is but because I thought it should not disappear without a trace, arrested by the NPOV police. I regard my failure as commenting that it needed discussion and then failing promptly to open such a discussion. I'm still mulling over how not to say this polemically, but I think it is also overstated to call propaganda and therefore contraband an attempt to identify elements of propaganda in a particularly prevalent account of dubious credibility. It is intellectually indefensible to allow this to pass with critique. Rather than objecting to NPOV wording and asking for a revision of the argument, you also chose initially to make a radical edit without taking it up here. Thank you for bringing this back here, but let's be a little more balanced in how we seek to restore balance. Buffyg 22:57, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid Stan is quite right in his objection. The best thing, Buffyg, would be to find somebody to whom you can attribute the above viewpoint, which makes the article automatically POV. The next best thing would be to introduce weasel terms and thus neutralise the section. Ironically, that would produce a paragraph with the exact opposite meaning to what you intend:
As you can see, now it becomes a (neutral but) unexciting statement of two opposing viewpoints, which cannot be attributed to anybody and hence serves as a bad introduction to the subject. I would much prefer if you dug out some references, so that this paragraph is stronger. Arbor 06:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Again, I began by saying that I don't think the word is perfect and that it needed to be worked out here rather than simply excised with an NPOV comment on the edit. And, actually, I do have a similar remark from Raul Hilberg's mouth later in the article, but I don't believe that this entirely addresses POV/NPOV. My point is not to say that the Anschluss cannot be viewed as the military annexation of Austria but that to view it as "simply" that would be to "misunderstand" its essence, which would not in any case provide anything like absolution but does have the effect of changing the subject (hence my wording "tends to conceal"). In any case, to make such a claim without remarking on its limited analytic value and obvious propaganda value would be to set aside a number of basic facts presented elsewhere in the article, and to simply reiterate an argument without quotation or attribution and in any case without pointing out what immediately contradicts it is POV of a subtle sort. Certainly you can always resort to attributing remarks to "some" and "others," but this is below the Gallup level of presenting opinions and does little to inform the reader or grasp essential truths. For these reasons I don't think think your weasel proposal achieves neutral, although it is so blandly and equivocally stated that one drops one's guard and is therefore less likely to call it out. Buffyg 07:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
StanZegel, I do not think I completely understand the specific POV problems you are citing.
Martyg, the "myth that..." is the most blatant of the POV passages, and the one that caused me to raise the issue. Generally my (overstated) feeling is that anything that has an adjective needs closer review for POV problems, which is why I pointed out the some of the adjacent language too. You raise an excellent point, that of the relative importance of WW2 vs the Shoah, and any article that elevates the smaller over the larger certainly reflects POV.
As for "crimes" I marked it because I think that is a loaded word ("I do what is necessary in the circumstances, you do the expedient thing, what he does is criminal") that is unnecessary and vague: like history, ex post facto laws are written by the victors, and the losers are declared "criminals" instead of merely the losers. Was Stalin's treatment of captured enemy soldiers a crime? If so, against what specific statute or treaty? Stalin's USSR was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War because he did not care about reciprocal treatment of POWs. His orders to the soviet solders were simple: fight to the death, and any Soyuz soldier who allowed himself to be captured instead of killed had therefore disobeyed orders and Stalin was not concerned about the subsequent treatment of that soldier. That lack of concern of reciprocity allowed him to treat captured German soldiers as he did. So "crimes" is not a simple subject, and using the term here is not necessary (except to reinforce POV) and thus I called attention to it too.
I do think this article has gotten way off track, way beyond the Anschulss, dealing as it attempts to do, with "guilt" for political activities. If it were NPOV and dealing with such extraneous matters, it would also explain how, 20 years before, the victors had dismembered Habsburg Austria, ripping away the lands of the Bohemian crown and the breadbasket of Hungary. "Der Rest ist Österreich" might have been in the minds of some who wished a restoration of the status quo ante bellum, and looked up the Donau at the economic recovery Germany had experienced after repossessing the Ruhrgebiet and reasserting control of its own destiny. History may always be written by the victors, and is always done so to emphasize the justice of victor's actions and the evil of the losers', but in a NPOV article we should be more concerned with stating the facts (after all, no one is wholly bad and acts for what he considers to be good reasons --although we may disagree with those reasons), and helping the reader to understand the rationale of both sides of any issue is important. In any event, much of the material in this article is irrelevant to the subject of it and should, I believe, be removed to a more suitable place and recast into a dispassionate and impartial exposition of the subject. -- StanZegel 13:09, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, I have read the article now, and am quite surprised how biased it is, especially given its current featured status. The passage pointed to by Stan is maybe the worst paragraph, but there are similar passages throughout the articles 4th section (Legacy). Look, Martg and Buffy, I share these viewpoints. But they don't belong here. Unless they are much, much better sourced. So either this article is heavily POV, or it is poorly sourced. I would encourage you warmly to give this piece a very careful second look. Err on the side of caution. Here are some of the things I noted:
I will poke about a bit myself, but it's probably better if most of the cleaning comes from the main authors (after all, you know what you are talking about). I am confident that we can get the article fixed in no time. Arbor 13:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I originally came to this article in search of the text of the question Schuschnigg was submitting to the electorate at the plebicite. Not the nature or jist of the question, but the actual wording. I hope that someone who knows more about this subject will be able to add the text to this article as it undergoes revision and augmentation. -- StanZegel 03:01, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Several years of unhappy junior membership in a coalition with the SPÖ had brought discredit to the party's liberal elements.
has to be cut for pov reasons.--
Fenice 16:27, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Due to formal reasons it seems to be impossible to get this on the farc list. This is a copy of the farc request:
Reason: The article has several problems:
After my NPOVing and getting rid of a few weasel terms, I actually think that the POV issues are gone. I've decided to Be Bold and remove the tag. Borisblue 8 July 2005 01:20 (UTC)
I think the NPOV tag shouldbe reapplied, it is still biased as if u read down towards teh bottom it tries to blaim the Austrian people for teh Anschluss, like someone saying a woman "was aksing for it" when they are raped because they were wearing tight clothes
Fenice, reverting without using the user page? And after I have cited both encarta and britannica? tut tut Borisblue 8 July 2005 16:32 (UTC)
OK, this comes from a twice merged talk, so it's messy Borisblue 8 July 2005 17:10 (UTC) Where have I reverted anything?-- Fenice 8 July 2005 16:36 (UTC)
I've removed the tag. Although minor POV points still exist here and there, I am certain a reader going through the article will understand that most Austrians supported the Anschluss as a unification. Listen, I don't want to make an enemy out of you. Read my edit history on the article and you will see that all my edits shifted the article toward your point of view. I have no POV to push; I just want to save what is in my opinion a very good article from being de-FA'd. And please don't make references to "cheap asian products", this may be interpreted as an ethnic slur. Borisblue 8 July 2005 15:51 (UTC)
so why didn't you do this? We both agree that a) significant amounts of people and sources call it annexation. and b)The Austrians supported the Anschluss, so it wasn't a real invasion, so what precisely are we arguing about?? Borisblue 8 July 2005 16:44 (UTC)
Your place or mine? I'd say we are even on slurs now. The right place for further discussion is Talk:Anschluss.-- Fenice 8 July 2005 17:02 (UTC)
I have reworded the first paragraph in the lead and in "the word", the second paragraph of "the word" needs to be sourced and is acutally quite contradictory. The translation of Vereinigung is uniting or unification. And then there is the socket-association again, the word Anschluss is really used for electrical (physical) connections, but that is not relevant here.-- Fenice 8 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)
There's still a request to feature this article on the main page. Have all the POV issues been sorted out? →Raul654 16:38, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
Re: the reverting going on, do you guys think there's too much fair use stuff here for an FA? Borisblue 01:33, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The sentence
The events of March 12, 1938, was the first major step in Adolf Hitler's long-desired reunification of Germany with the land that was lost from the former German Empire before it was annexed at the end of WW1 by the neighbouring Allied countries.
is a little unwieldy and confusing, IMO. "land that was lost from ...annexed...by...allied countries" while true of the Saar region, does not characterise austria accurately. there is also a pronoun-referent confusion - does "it was annexed" refers to the "former German Empire" or "the land that was ..."?
How about the following ...
The Union of Austria with Germany was one of the steps taken by Hitler which brought areas he regarded(?) as German territory under the domination of the Third Reich, in violation of terms of the Treaty of Versailles. The Anchluss followed the return of Saar region to Germany and preceded the ceding of Sudetenland, and later, the invasions of Czechoslovakia and Poland which culminated in the Second World War. Control over such these areas would provide Germany with important resources such as iron and coal in the Saar region and rich agricultural land in Poland.
i propose the following additional text.
With Austria and Sudetenland, Hitler followed similar tactics of encouraging German/Nazi(?) movements in the region and bringing strong(?) diplomatic pressure on the Allied nations to desist from enforcing the terms of the Treaty of Versailles which protected the prevailing national borders.
In the sentence on international response, only the actions of UK is mentioned. i think "UK" needs to be replaced with "allied countries" instead, as french and the US response was more or less the same and they had the same(similar?) obligations as UK under Versailles, League of Nations and international law. perhaps the reactions of italy, czechoslovakia and poland to the event can also be mentioned here. -- Doldrums 02:38, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
--
I like that article. Well done! At the beginning of the article the Saar region is mentioned; should the Rhineland's return (on March 7, 1936) to Germany from France also be mentioned in the article? QUITTNER 142.150.49.166 17:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
--
Can someone verify that this picture is from the Anschluss. I remember seeing it being described as taken when the Nazis entered the Sudtenland. Roadrunner 03:15, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
This article really needs a map of Germany before and after Anschluss. (Something like this or this, perhaps.) – Quadell ( talk) ( sleuth) 13:13, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Why does this have a VfD?
Maybe it's worth mentioning that the term now has a wider meaning and it is used in geopolitics to describe a state's policy of anexation of another state, on the pretext of cultural, historic, ethnic, historic or lingvistic unity. -- Radufan 15:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The translations connection or political union for Anschluss are not adequate. Both words describe a connection between equal entities, while Anschluss (from the word anschließen) means connecting a smaller subsystem to a greater system of the same kind. There is always a Anschluss of on thing to another, never the Anschluss of two things (with each other)! The Nazis most likely used this more technically term with a certain purpose. I suggest link-up as translation.
(It's not what the Anschluss was about, but what meaning the word has in German.)
-- Abe Lincoln 12:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Is the result of 99.73% for annexation considered genuine? If not, the figure should be qualified. Dynzmoar ( talk) 13:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Chipppy ( talk) 06:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
The infobox should be changed from History of German to History of Austria. Although this event effected both countries it is somehow woeful to see one of the sadest, but most important recent chapters of Austrian history being listed under History of Germany. Perhaps you might consider a change of that. The protest against the Anschluss by Mexico at the League of Nations by foreign minister Eduardo Hay, as the only country to do so, should also be mentioned. -- El bes ( talk) 19:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
He hates jews — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:58C0:4890:B44F:8C59:756C:15DB ( talk) 15:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)