This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Anime is a "style" (or a medium); and it should be defined as one. Just like manga. For your information, manga is produced outside Japan, and we've seen that happen in the form of webcomics such as Van Von Hunter and Megatokyo. They may not look like the best manga out there - unlike the material we're accustomed to seeing. At least, their products are being published and sold under manga sections in book stores. However, manga is manga regardless of who and where it is produced. Therefore, if manga can be produced outside Japan, then why can't anime be produced outside Japan? KyuuA4 05:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
What falls under the criteria of Anime and Non-Anime? As a reminder, the Japanese consider anything animated as "anime"; by which, it is synonymous to the set "animation". Of course, we in the west make a distinction between anime vs non-anime. So, what defines the sets "anime" and "non-anime"? Can an animated product be both "anime" and "non-anime"? KyuuA4 06:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to head off a revert war at Miss Dynamite. What is the WP stance on non-Japanese productions that self-identify as anime? The standard Western definition of anime has been, from the late 1970s until recently, strictly "Japanese animation". Similarly, manga is strictly "Japanese comics". Of course these distinctions do not exist in Japan where the words simply mean "animation" and "comics" respectively.
Starting in the late 1990s, more and more works outside Japan are self-identifying as anime and manga due to being inspired by the styles prevalent within those media (IMHO to call anime and manga "genres" is as spurious as calling Hollywood and Bollywood "genres" of film). While there are convenient names for Korean and Chinese comics (manhwa and manhua respectively), American manga-inspired works ( amerimanga) (which I heartily encourage the use of), and even American anime-inspired animation ( amerime), not all these terms are widely used. Do we bend the definition of anime to include works with little to no Japanese involvement in the production like Totally Spies! or Samurai Jack?
I disagree with some of the self-identification here, and I don't think self-identification is the be-all, end-all of classification. It would seem to me a lot like remaking Manon des Sources in the California countryside without a single French cast or crewmember, and insisting it's still a French film ... or for that matter, calling Kimba the White Lion a Disney film because it's inspired by Disney and has talking animals in it. But if WP consensus would prefer to classify amerime and amerimanga as subsets of anime and manga, then consensus wins.
Please, discuss!
well, manga is actually simply something that came from the japanese not having money to make actual movies, and the art style came from looking at mickey mouse and suc from dizney, along with some older cultural influences, but mangaitself was origionally sorta like showing motion and such in still frames, anime on the other hand has simmilar history, and anime also has a history in japan of being a way of geting around the censors, such things like Hentai, while not for everyone , came from attempts at cultural freedom of expression, and defiance of censors. while it is true that anime comes form japan nad the orient, I still dont see the problem with some americans trying to get in on a good thing, except that they cant keep kidding themselves, they can call a series like avatar : the last airbender anime all they want, but its anime STYLE, nothing that isnt from japan, or at least the orient, can be alled anime without lying through ones , possibly misinformed teeth. well, thats all i have to say on the subject for the moment. Karaveks voice 20:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed the debate going on in the Miss Dynamite article as well as here, and in the hopes of providing some direction, let me point out a few things. In Wikipedia, we are concerned entirely with what is, never with what should be. This is the essence of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Therefore, if there is verifiable evidence that indeed non-Japanese publishers have successfully co-opted terms like "manga" and "anime" to describe their own products, then we cannot forbid such uses here. How we may feel about the issue is utterly without relevance. Personally, I think manga and anime are still largely used to describe Japanese creations, and therefore it's better to use terms like "manga-inspired", but I doubt that will be true for much longer. I've noticed Megatokyo is often shelved in the Manga sections of bookstores these days, and whether we like it or not, we must pay attention to that public perception. – Abe Dashiell ( t/ c) 14:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
random? no. anyway, why not just say its japanese style, kinda like the iferiour US brands of electronics are modeled after japenese electronics... Karaveks voice 15:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I can say this. In the Japanese language, "anime" refers to all works animated. "Manga" refers to all works comics. So it would be appropriate to call everything "anime" and everything "manga" in a loanword way of using words. At the same time, I personally find that non-Japanese works that self-identify as "anime" tend to be the least worthy of being called "anime," while there are less pretentious works that intentionally or unintentionally fit better into the anime "style." Now, think about what makes a movie a Hollywood movie. A movie is Hollywood when it's financed by a Hollywood company. Likewise, if you want to make a distinction between anime and animation, an objective rule of thumb can be to decide by whether a particular title has Japanese financing. This makes sense, as I wouldn't call American animated shows that were farmed out to Japan "anime" in the discriminating US-English way, and that goes back to these shows being financed with American money. Likewise, the Disney shows that were made at the Disney Japan studio would not be "anime," even though a lot of famous Japanese animators worked there. To wit, what would you call the animated segment in Kill Bill or the animated work that is The Animatrix?-- Outis 12:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
As far as American-made shows using anime style (Totally Spies! and Samurai Jack as mentioned above), I prefer the term "americanime". 69.158.141.33 08:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
In art forms such as animation, art & comics you must remember that origin does not matter. The defining point of an art is, style, if a show or comic is drawn in America or Japan the style of the show or comic will still be the same as the artist makes it. ~~Seve
Some artists may use animation as their means of expression, but the form of animation that fans want to call anime is not art. Anime is popular enternainment. While popular entertainment and art are not mutually exclusive, art is only an element that embelishes anime. Origins and who finance an anime title certainly matter, as long as you prefer to narrow the scope of what anime is. If you don't like that, use the word "anime" interchangeably with "animation," as it's used in the Japanese language.-- 24.5.125.75 23:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
You know, anime is pop art, as opposed to pure art. Those who are seeking something more sublime are projecting more of their wishful thinking into the medium than seeing the reality of the entertainment industry.- 24.5.125.75
Actually, I'm more worried about the stereotyping that's going on in the Miss Dynamite "manga" (which looks nothing like manga from Japan - it looks more like North American comic strips than anything). Just having a Japanese woman (who isn't even really Japanese - Chin is not a Japanese name.), especially a heavily stereotypical one, doesn't make it "manga", no matter how much the author wishes it. -- ColourBurst 04:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to move the Cowboy Bebop image further down the article, into the Characteristics section above or below the Dragon Ball Z picture as an example of space opera, drama and action. In its place can go the Atomic/Astro Boy or another suitable picture. The Cowboy Bebop picture along with the Anime and Manga portal link creates a lot of whitespace at the head of the article on quite a few different monitor resolutions. I and several other editors have tried formatting the page around the picture but after many different revisions I believe it is the picture itself that is the problem. I know that this is the sort of change that you propose first and change later to prevent arguements so comments and objections please! -- Squilibob 10:55, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
We currently have four users agreeing to the proposal and one against. If anyone agrees with RevolverOcelotX's arguements against moving the Cowboy Bebop image and the Atom Boy image back to where they were please speak your case. I will be moving the image if there is no further resistance because the Cowboy Bebop image again takes up too much space and RevolverOcelotX has reverted Shiro Hane's attempt to fix the problem where the image's size causes text to wrap inconsistantly at low resolutions. -- Squilibob 14:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Have anyone saw the new television show called Boondocks, which is based on the popular comic strip? People are drawn with big and colorfull eyes, and their texture is also alike the all the animes and mangas I saw/read. So is it an anime or is it not? Kniaz Monday, April 10 17:26 pm
I've tagged this section because it makes an excessive use of weasel words, such as "some people have", "some have found", "many people will cite", and "Some [animators] have". Attributing opinions to anonymous sources should be avoided and linking to just one source is not going to offset the anonymous nature of the attributed opinion. -- TheFarix ( Talk) 21:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My question was simply put "is or is not the new television show "Boondocs", based on popular, partly racist and stereotypical comic strip an anime? Note that it is drawn in anime style." So, please tell me if IT IS/YES or IT IS NOT/NO and then give the reasons. No "near to", "close to", "perhapes it is", "most likely", etc. If you just wish to give me the reasons, but not sure go on my userpage. Kniaz 18:19, 12 April 2006
The answer is entirely subjective. However you might be interested in this quote from creator Aaron McGruder:
First of all: Thank you for the straight answer Nihonjoe, but you could have given more resons; dforest, have you ever heard of persuasive essay, it's when you persuade the reader not giving him the chance to see two points, but only one, the one you want the reader to see; um...squilibob, the question was straight, so please answer straight: YSE or NO. ****, why can't you people responde with a straight answer, why!? kniaz
Thank you for the straight answer. P.S. Boondocks is a show which is airing on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim. kniaz April 23, 2006
Are all these review site external links necessary? I'd like to prune it down to one or completely remove them. If anime review sites are important to anime then a separate article would exist for it and the links would be there instead. -- Squilibob 01:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Squilibob 22:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is in excellent conditon. Where is the neurality disputed and for what reason? Finite 21:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Hey all,
First of all, great job with the article. I like how anyone who has never heard of anime can read this article and understand the basics of anime by the time they get to the end.
I placed a POV note on top of the page because I feel that the article is biased. As a former anime fan (I had been a fan for at least five years.), I understand that the anime community is mostly anti-American and pro-Japanese, and I know how hard it is to deviate from this standard. However, this is Wikipedia, and we are supposed to present an neutral point of view.
Here are my comments:
Thank you for listening to my concerns. See you around Wikipedia.
(^'-')^ Covington 21:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering, how come the following are no longer present in the article:
NeoDeGenero 12:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem because i don´t find something about Rosen Maiden. Thanks for your atention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.76.25.100 ( talk • contribs) .
I sometimes stumble upon anime series where each episode's duration (including opening and ending sequences) is only 5-10 minutes, such as: Oruchuban Ebichu, Dameko Doubutsu, and Panda Z. Is there a special category for these short animes? And are these "real" series, or are they simply produced as fillers? Thanks.
I would like to raise the point about images again. Most of the images are 300px wide. I have resized the two Macross pictures before but editors have reverted it. Can we have a fixed width for all the images please?
There are two Macross images. I've tried to remove the Mylene one twice and it keeps being reverted. Can we have some diversity please? The Macross image in Music is good and we have Lum as our example of female depiction. Do we need this Mylene image?
Two of the images raised in question last year ( Talk:Anime/Archive_2#Not_all_images_used_are_optimal) are still there. I would like to keep a Cowboy Bebop image and an image of Lum as they are good examples, but when this was raised there were some good points made. The current Cowboy Bebop picture isn't even used on the Cowboy Bebop article as of writing and as mentioned previously, the Lum .png has two people in it. -- Squilibob 10:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, we can't be serious all the time. Warning, catchy tune. --02:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Can I get a big Amen, and five hits (ref to James Brown's Sex Machine). I rank this music #2 to Gunther's Ding Dong Song. Gunbolt 00:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Anime is a "style" (or a medium); and it should be defined as one. Just like manga. For your information, manga is produced outside Japan, and we've seen that happen in the form of webcomics such as Van Von Hunter and Megatokyo. They may not look like the best manga out there - unlike the material we're accustomed to seeing. At least, their products are being published and sold under manga sections in book stores. However, manga is manga regardless of who and where it is produced. Therefore, if manga can be produced outside Japan, then why can't anime be produced outside Japan? KyuuA4 05:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
What falls under the criteria of Anime and Non-Anime? As a reminder, the Japanese consider anything animated as "anime"; by which, it is synonymous to the set "animation". Of course, we in the west make a distinction between anime vs non-anime. So, what defines the sets "anime" and "non-anime"? Can an animated product be both "anime" and "non-anime"? KyuuA4 06:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to head off a revert war at Miss Dynamite. What is the WP stance on non-Japanese productions that self-identify as anime? The standard Western definition of anime has been, from the late 1970s until recently, strictly "Japanese animation". Similarly, manga is strictly "Japanese comics". Of course these distinctions do not exist in Japan where the words simply mean "animation" and "comics" respectively.
Starting in the late 1990s, more and more works outside Japan are self-identifying as anime and manga due to being inspired by the styles prevalent within those media (IMHO to call anime and manga "genres" is as spurious as calling Hollywood and Bollywood "genres" of film). While there are convenient names for Korean and Chinese comics (manhwa and manhua respectively), American manga-inspired works ( amerimanga) (which I heartily encourage the use of), and even American anime-inspired animation ( amerime), not all these terms are widely used. Do we bend the definition of anime to include works with little to no Japanese involvement in the production like Totally Spies! or Samurai Jack?
I disagree with some of the self-identification here, and I don't think self-identification is the be-all, end-all of classification. It would seem to me a lot like remaking Manon des Sources in the California countryside without a single French cast or crewmember, and insisting it's still a French film ... or for that matter, calling Kimba the White Lion a Disney film because it's inspired by Disney and has talking animals in it. But if WP consensus would prefer to classify amerime and amerimanga as subsets of anime and manga, then consensus wins.
Please, discuss!
well, manga is actually simply something that came from the japanese not having money to make actual movies, and the art style came from looking at mickey mouse and suc from dizney, along with some older cultural influences, but mangaitself was origionally sorta like showing motion and such in still frames, anime on the other hand has simmilar history, and anime also has a history in japan of being a way of geting around the censors, such things like Hentai, while not for everyone , came from attempts at cultural freedom of expression, and defiance of censors. while it is true that anime comes form japan nad the orient, I still dont see the problem with some americans trying to get in on a good thing, except that they cant keep kidding themselves, they can call a series like avatar : the last airbender anime all they want, but its anime STYLE, nothing that isnt from japan, or at least the orient, can be alled anime without lying through ones , possibly misinformed teeth. well, thats all i have to say on the subject for the moment. Karaveks voice 20:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed the debate going on in the Miss Dynamite article as well as here, and in the hopes of providing some direction, let me point out a few things. In Wikipedia, we are concerned entirely with what is, never with what should be. This is the essence of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Therefore, if there is verifiable evidence that indeed non-Japanese publishers have successfully co-opted terms like "manga" and "anime" to describe their own products, then we cannot forbid such uses here. How we may feel about the issue is utterly without relevance. Personally, I think manga and anime are still largely used to describe Japanese creations, and therefore it's better to use terms like "manga-inspired", but I doubt that will be true for much longer. I've noticed Megatokyo is often shelved in the Manga sections of bookstores these days, and whether we like it or not, we must pay attention to that public perception. – Abe Dashiell ( t/ c) 14:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
random? no. anyway, why not just say its japanese style, kinda like the iferiour US brands of electronics are modeled after japenese electronics... Karaveks voice 15:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I can say this. In the Japanese language, "anime" refers to all works animated. "Manga" refers to all works comics. So it would be appropriate to call everything "anime" and everything "manga" in a loanword way of using words. At the same time, I personally find that non-Japanese works that self-identify as "anime" tend to be the least worthy of being called "anime," while there are less pretentious works that intentionally or unintentionally fit better into the anime "style." Now, think about what makes a movie a Hollywood movie. A movie is Hollywood when it's financed by a Hollywood company. Likewise, if you want to make a distinction between anime and animation, an objective rule of thumb can be to decide by whether a particular title has Japanese financing. This makes sense, as I wouldn't call American animated shows that were farmed out to Japan "anime" in the discriminating US-English way, and that goes back to these shows being financed with American money. Likewise, the Disney shows that were made at the Disney Japan studio would not be "anime," even though a lot of famous Japanese animators worked there. To wit, what would you call the animated segment in Kill Bill or the animated work that is The Animatrix?-- Outis 12:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
As far as American-made shows using anime style (Totally Spies! and Samurai Jack as mentioned above), I prefer the term "americanime". 69.158.141.33 08:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
In art forms such as animation, art & comics you must remember that origin does not matter. The defining point of an art is, style, if a show or comic is drawn in America or Japan the style of the show or comic will still be the same as the artist makes it. ~~Seve
Some artists may use animation as their means of expression, but the form of animation that fans want to call anime is not art. Anime is popular enternainment. While popular entertainment and art are not mutually exclusive, art is only an element that embelishes anime. Origins and who finance an anime title certainly matter, as long as you prefer to narrow the scope of what anime is. If you don't like that, use the word "anime" interchangeably with "animation," as it's used in the Japanese language.-- 24.5.125.75 23:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
You know, anime is pop art, as opposed to pure art. Those who are seeking something more sublime are projecting more of their wishful thinking into the medium than seeing the reality of the entertainment industry.- 24.5.125.75
Actually, I'm more worried about the stereotyping that's going on in the Miss Dynamite "manga" (which looks nothing like manga from Japan - it looks more like North American comic strips than anything). Just having a Japanese woman (who isn't even really Japanese - Chin is not a Japanese name.), especially a heavily stereotypical one, doesn't make it "manga", no matter how much the author wishes it. -- ColourBurst 04:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to move the Cowboy Bebop image further down the article, into the Characteristics section above or below the Dragon Ball Z picture as an example of space opera, drama and action. In its place can go the Atomic/Astro Boy or another suitable picture. The Cowboy Bebop picture along with the Anime and Manga portal link creates a lot of whitespace at the head of the article on quite a few different monitor resolutions. I and several other editors have tried formatting the page around the picture but after many different revisions I believe it is the picture itself that is the problem. I know that this is the sort of change that you propose first and change later to prevent arguements so comments and objections please! -- Squilibob 10:55, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
We currently have four users agreeing to the proposal and one against. If anyone agrees with RevolverOcelotX's arguements against moving the Cowboy Bebop image and the Atom Boy image back to where they were please speak your case. I will be moving the image if there is no further resistance because the Cowboy Bebop image again takes up too much space and RevolverOcelotX has reverted Shiro Hane's attempt to fix the problem where the image's size causes text to wrap inconsistantly at low resolutions. -- Squilibob 14:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Have anyone saw the new television show called Boondocks, which is based on the popular comic strip? People are drawn with big and colorfull eyes, and their texture is also alike the all the animes and mangas I saw/read. So is it an anime or is it not? Kniaz Monday, April 10 17:26 pm
I've tagged this section because it makes an excessive use of weasel words, such as "some people have", "some have found", "many people will cite", and "Some [animators] have". Attributing opinions to anonymous sources should be avoided and linking to just one source is not going to offset the anonymous nature of the attributed opinion. -- TheFarix ( Talk) 21:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My question was simply put "is or is not the new television show "Boondocs", based on popular, partly racist and stereotypical comic strip an anime? Note that it is drawn in anime style." So, please tell me if IT IS/YES or IT IS NOT/NO and then give the reasons. No "near to", "close to", "perhapes it is", "most likely", etc. If you just wish to give me the reasons, but not sure go on my userpage. Kniaz 18:19, 12 April 2006
The answer is entirely subjective. However you might be interested in this quote from creator Aaron McGruder:
First of all: Thank you for the straight answer Nihonjoe, but you could have given more resons; dforest, have you ever heard of persuasive essay, it's when you persuade the reader not giving him the chance to see two points, but only one, the one you want the reader to see; um...squilibob, the question was straight, so please answer straight: YSE or NO. ****, why can't you people responde with a straight answer, why!? kniaz
Thank you for the straight answer. P.S. Boondocks is a show which is airing on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim. kniaz April 23, 2006
Are all these review site external links necessary? I'd like to prune it down to one or completely remove them. If anime review sites are important to anime then a separate article would exist for it and the links would be there instead. -- Squilibob 01:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Squilibob 22:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is in excellent conditon. Where is the neurality disputed and for what reason? Finite 21:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Hey all,
First of all, great job with the article. I like how anyone who has never heard of anime can read this article and understand the basics of anime by the time they get to the end.
I placed a POV note on top of the page because I feel that the article is biased. As a former anime fan (I had been a fan for at least five years.), I understand that the anime community is mostly anti-American and pro-Japanese, and I know how hard it is to deviate from this standard. However, this is Wikipedia, and we are supposed to present an neutral point of view.
Here are my comments:
Thank you for listening to my concerns. See you around Wikipedia.
(^'-')^ Covington 21:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering, how come the following are no longer present in the article:
NeoDeGenero 12:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem because i don´t find something about Rosen Maiden. Thanks for your atention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.76.25.100 ( talk • contribs) .
I sometimes stumble upon anime series where each episode's duration (including opening and ending sequences) is only 5-10 minutes, such as: Oruchuban Ebichu, Dameko Doubutsu, and Panda Z. Is there a special category for these short animes? And are these "real" series, or are they simply produced as fillers? Thanks.
I would like to raise the point about images again. Most of the images are 300px wide. I have resized the two Macross pictures before but editors have reverted it. Can we have a fixed width for all the images please?
There are two Macross images. I've tried to remove the Mylene one twice and it keeps being reverted. Can we have some diversity please? The Macross image in Music is good and we have Lum as our example of female depiction. Do we need this Mylene image?
Two of the images raised in question last year ( Talk:Anime/Archive_2#Not_all_images_used_are_optimal) are still there. I would like to keep a Cowboy Bebop image and an image of Lum as they are good examples, but when this was raised there were some good points made. The current Cowboy Bebop picture isn't even used on the Cowboy Bebop article as of writing and as mentioned previously, the Lum .png has two people in it. -- Squilibob 10:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, we can't be serious all the time. Warning, catchy tune. --02:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Can I get a big Amen, and five hits (ref to James Brown's Sex Machine). I rank this music #2 to Gunther's Ding Dong Song. Gunbolt 00:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)