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Do you have any other sources for this claim? Jammy Simpson | Talk | 16:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
This whole paragraph is hogwash. Principally, the whole bundle of laws for animal and nature protection was never abolished after WW2, at least in west Germany. The three laws (Reichsnaturschutzgesetz, Tierschutzgesetz, Reichsjagdgesetz) were taken over by the federal republic with only minor changes, like making it easier to claim compensation for environmental measures. Same goes for the cruelty to animals paragraph in the criminal code (StGB). In fact, laws made between 1933 and 45 were generally only changed as far as they contained nazi ideology. The fact that the Wolf is extinct in Germany is because the areas were wolves live were no longer german territory. In the present day borders of Germany, the Wolf has been extinct at least 150 years, even though occasional packs move in from Poland in cold winters and some might have taken up permanent residence recently. JCRitter ( talk) 16:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
“ | After the defeat of Nazi Germany in World War II, most of the animal protection laws enacted by the Nazis were dissolved in Germany. The wolf became extinct and nature preservation areas were turned into agricultural lands. Until the beginning of the 1970s, everything related to nature preservation were wiped out in Germany. | ” |
Per the above argument, the following sentences can be removed:
I am removing these sentences per above argument. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 16:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
"In the United Kingdom, few neo-Nazi groups who read Nazi Germany's effort for protection of animal rights, tried to join the animal liberation movement.[3]"
Should this actually say "a few" rather than "few" - the addition of "a" more-or-less reverses the sense of the sentence! 87.113.49.73 ( talk) 18:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
What was the purpose of removing the photo of Adolf Hitler with his dog? The comment associated with that edit suggests to me that the editor felt that this was may have been painting Hitler in too positive a light, but is it not also true that Hitler was indeed an animal lover and this should not be concealed? The photo was appropriate and illustrative of this and seemed like an excellent companion to the article. Just my opinion, it made the article better and was a service by breaking the assumption that Hitler or Nazis were unmitigated evil (not to say they were acceptable or defensible, only that they were human). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.255.103.63 ( talk) 01:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I was very surprised to find such a quite ite detailed article / own lemma about the topic of Nazi animal rights / welfare here. I had just recently introduced these points into aome articles in the german wikipedia. PLease allow me to update some elemts of the english lemma based on a dedicated study about the Reichstierschutzgesetz and its role in Nazi campaigns and propaganda. -- Polentario ( talk) 00:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
“ | The legal frameworks and concepts of the Reichstierschutzgesetz and further conservationist laws have been developed close cooperation with a broad involvement of people, a genuine conservationist movement and organisation and were a valid success which is in place still today. Besides Law making, serious research funds were earmarked in geography, ecology, landscape protection and Soil research - delivering a serious base of still valuable research under a Blut und Boden mythical propaganda overlay. Basically they are still valid and have been kept (in the west) with only minor updates in the 70ties and have just been copied in eastern Germany around 1954.
Before the war some remote parallels and interaction between the various 'New Deals' on both sides of the atlantic can be drawn. As well influential American industrialist and antisemite Henry Ford closely cooperated with Hitler. |
” |
Only the above paragraph was sourced. Foloowing was unsourced addition.
“ | Besides German conservationist and landscape protection schemes for major infrastructure projects involved as the autobahns found international acknowledgement and had an impact on the Federal Highway system in the US. On the other hand, not only the US federal park scheme was copied and applied to German circumstances.
Along with Wolfgang Schivelbusch sensitive comparision of what he calls 'Three New Deals' it has to be said against a reductio ad hitlerum that the major difference is not to be found in the -often similar- appraisal of new technical schemes and developements but in democracy and dictatorship. While Hitler and Mussolini used Radio adresses, airplanes, IBM statistical tools and Ford and Opel lorries to immerse themselves into the masses and to motivate and shout them into projects that finally lead them into war and genocide, Franklin Roosevelts Fireplace chats were chats - and a genial way to interact and motivate with individuals in a to be reformed democratic society. The way western Germany successfully dealt with this heritage was to pragmatically adapt to the American way in that respect without doing away with the technical structures and the gained knowledge. |
” |
You changed the section "Difference from animal liberation movement" and added unsourced information. Please follow WP:V. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 08:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Also you have added German quote in the article mainspace
“ | Das nationalsozialistische Reichstierschutzgesetz muss als ein historischer Grenzfall angesehen werde: Während es vom Standpunkt des Tierschutzes aus betrachtet, einen Fortschritt für die damalige Zeit darstellte, so ist der Tierschutzgedanke, der dem Gesetz zugrunde liegt, unabdingbarer Teil der nationalsozialistischen Weltanschauung. Der Übergang von Tier- zu Menschenversuchen im Dritten Reich ist also keine direkte Konsequenz des Reichstierschutzgesetzes, sondern vielmehr eine Folge einer Ideologie, die ihre Menschenverachtung auch durch eine Aufwertung von Tieren legitimierte. | ” |
The translation is needed in the article mainspace, in English wikipedia, you have to write in English. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 08:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I assume we have a different style in providing source. While you prefer en detail sourcing, resulting in barbed wire footmarking (which is OK, but not always done or needed), I tend more to give a generic abstract about the sources and to tell freely. My changes are based, as I have pointed out when i started editing, Schivelbusch and Daniel Jütte. Further points and detiled issues have been pointed out in text.
The quotation you mentioned quotation is the abstract of my most valuable source. As there is no existing valided translation, I give the original text and in brackets my personal translation. [2] Daniel Jütte, Tierschutz und Nationalsozialismus, Die Entstehung und die Auswirkungen des nationalsozialistischen Reichstierschutzgesetzes von 1933 (Animal Protection and Nationalsocialism, Rise and effect of the national socialist Animal Protection Law of 1933)IDB Münster • Ber. Inst. Didaktik Biologie Suppl.2 (2002) -- Polentario ( talk) 08:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
the two quotations of Himmler and of Jütte give the basic outline. The differences to animal liberation movement are given by comparision of Himmler and the Furoyn murderer, as well about the Euthanasia program and PETAs.
Daniel Jütte has described en detail the continuity and the differences - the abstract gives the generalkonzept, the rest is details along tha basic outline. -- Polentario ( talk) 08:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
OK- thats personal resaerch - the Rohrmoser bullshit is to be found on the german wikipedia as a seríuos link, Rohrmoser is a sort of German Neocon with extrem righht allegations
2 important Points about this:
An to explain the parallels and to make those distinctions, I foudn the shivelbusch comparision very valuable - therefore the corollar. And if you should happen to read the point about the (english source) about the vegan Jihadist - there is a parallelity of his approach to value animals more than human beings which is again in line with the Nazi thinking pointed out very clealry by Jütte. Graaf is not Himmler and Ingrid Kirk is not a Euthansia nazi. But similarity in the abstract approach are visible and can be pointed out.
Final Hint: I assume in reality you have not used original reasearch at all but those cato guys have been inspired by Jütte and his sources. Jütte was not even a student when he worte the 100 page essay for a competition of the German President. He won the first prize and the essay has been downsized to articles in Sueddeutsche Zeitung and FAZ, NYT class newspapers in this country. As said I see this source as an valuable improvement of your lemma, not an attack. But its up to wikipedia to decide. -- Polentario ( talk) 09:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
1. Animal rights movement has disdain for humaity comepared to animals. Peter Singer and Kaplan do not respect disabled people compared to a Chimpanzee 2. Furtuyn is a single case. OK, murder might be more popular in the US and besides Theo van Gogh it was the first case of political murder in non occupied holland for centuries. It was a show case - and it was about animal rights versus freedom of fur, besides muslim hypocrisy. Sources have been given. -- Polentario ( talk) 09:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
OK Daniel Jütte is a German Jew and historian. He was born 1984 in Israel and went 1989 to Germany. A a pupil in Stuttgar, he researched and wrote an 100 page essay for the Bundespräsidents historical competition. It won a 2001 a first prize. THe pdf I have quoted is a shortened version - after the prize Jütte got several professional tutors - based on an article in [[[FAZ]] which was published at the WWU Münster University department Didaktik der Biologie papers. Jütte has presented the results e.g. in Alte Synagoge. He started historical studies with the highest ranking scholarschip in germany, Studienstiftung des Deutschen Volkes and 2004 he was doing foreign studies about musical history in with a scholaarschip of Deutsches Studienzentrum in Venice. The FAZ quoted the éssay Anima Protection and National Socialism - a fatal connection, Sueddeutsche had done a longer essay within their historical features. Jütte points are en detail quoted in a left wing online newspaper http://www.trend.infopartisan.net/trd0407/t150407.html.
I saw a lot of bullshit questions in this discussion entry, as "I never heard of this and it cannot be". You personally have received a Tireless barnstar, for providing fringe topics. This is not a fringe topic, including the very high importance of the Hitler and Blondi homestories within NS propaganda, Himmlers animal protection quote - which u have erased as well for whatever reasons. My personal experience with english speaking scholars is a bllody arrogant attiditue, what has not been published in english doesnt exist. Does it apply to Wikipedia as well? I mean the topic of research and the legal heritage was and is German. Accept and Use sources from this country. What u quote is mostly based on translations, not on original reasearch.
-- Polentario ( talk) 19:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
-- Polentario ( talk) 21:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I have some concerns about the main source being used here. First, I have never heard of Hitler supporting animal rights, as opposed to protection/welfare, so we would need to see a good, specialist source for this claim. Secondly, the law was called animal protection, not animal rights.
Do we have a mainstream source that shows the term "animal rights" was ever used (or implied)? SlimVirgin talk| edits 11:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
If you have never heard about this - its probably due to the fact that youre not very close to Germany. Animal protection was a focal point of Hitlers propaganda and politics. An infamous proof is to be found in the Posen speech of heinrich Himmler. I have given variuos German sources on that. -- Polentario ( talk) 18:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Below is the quote from Boria Sax:
The Nazi strictures on animal protection were very explicit in their rejection of anthropocentric perspective -- animals were not to be protected for the sake of human interests but for themselves.
Animals in the Third Reich: Pets, Scapegoats, and the Holocaust by Boria Sax Page 42. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 15:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
The Nazi strictures on animal protection were very explicit in their rejection of anthropocentric perspective -- animals were not to be protected for the sake of human interests but for themselves (i.e. Giese and Kahler, p. 13). An intensified hierarchy, however, replaced humanism as an organized principle.
Some points I miss and have concerns and some points I'like to introduce or improve
First The Dachau concentration camp the first one started its operations in June 1933. It was mainly used to detain high level political enemies of the nazis, the opening was not at all formally announced in public. Juette mentions the fact that Goering in August did one of the first public announcement of the existence of those camps especially about animal protection. It - according Juiette - clearly shows the importance of animnal protection for the nazis.
OK Lets do some secondary research. Juettes text attached, I do some remarks where i found the points
Es gehört zu den kaum erforschten Ereignissen in der Zeit kurz nach Hitlers Machtergreifung im Januar 1933, dass bereits am 1. April 1933 der Beschluss der neuen nationalsozialistischen Regierung fiel, ein Reichstierschutzgesetz zu erlassen.
Reichsinnenminister Wilhelm Frick erhielt den Auftrag, ein solches Gesetz auszuarbeiten, und begann umgehend mit den Arbeiten. Da ein derartiges Gesetz ein Novum in der deutschen Rechtsgeschichte darstellte und die Abfassung daher unerwartete Probleme mit sich brachte, wurde erst die vierte Fassung des Gesetzentwurfs vom 4. November 1933 vom Kabinett am 14.11.33 als beschlussfähig angesehen, nachdem bereits drei durchaus verschiedene Fassungen vorausgegangen waren. Immer wieder hatten Tierschutzverbände Gesetzesvorschläge und -entwürfe beim Reichsinnenminister eingereicht und auf die Klärung von Detailfragen gedrungen.
Die Weichen für das Grundanliegen des Gesetzes waren freilich schon lange vorher gestellt worden: Am 16. August 1933, über drei Monate vor Erlass des Reichstierschutzgesetzes, hatte Hermann Göring in seiner Funktion als preußischer Ministerpräsident die „Vivisektion an Tieren aller Art für das gesamte preußische Staatsgebiet“ per Erlass als verboten erklärt. Eilfertig kommentierte die Reichspressestelle der NSDAP am nächsten Tag: „Der Ministerpräsident hat die zuständigen Ministerien beauftragt, ihm unverzüglich ein Gesetz vorzulegen, nach dem die Vivisektion mit hohen Strafen belegt wird. Bis zum Erlaß dieses Gesetzes werden Personen, die trotz des Verbotes die Vivisektion veranlassen, durchführen oder sich daran beteiligen, ins Konzentrationslager abgeführt.“ (zit. nach EBERSTEIN, 1999, 210)
Obwohl die deutsche Geschichtswissenschaft diese Quelle mitsamt ihrer bemerkenswert frühen Verwendung des Wortes „Konzentrationslager“ bislang völlig übersehen hat, kann der Text auf eindrückliche Weise verdeutlichen, wie ernst die Nationalsozialisten ihre Bemühungen um den Tierschutz meinten. Dass ausgerechnet Vivisektoren strafrechtlich mit den erklärten Feinden des Regimes (KPD, SPD etc.) auf eine Stufe gestellt wurden, verdeutlicht, dass der Tierschutz prominenten Nationalsozialisten, wie beispielsweise Göring, besonders am Herzen lag. Es ist anzunehmen, dass Görings Drohung die in Preußen tätigen Wissenschaftler eingeschüchtert und den Protest der Ärzteschaft unterdrückt hat.
BR -- Polentario ( talk) 23:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not talking about my OR, but I know about sources which are obvioiusly not available in the states. I need half an hour to have a look on dachau exhibition and documentation center. How far away are you? Its a German topic, isn't it?
OK, again. June 1933 the Dachau camp was opened as detainment for high level political enemies - about 5000 people in the whole Reich. It started very small. The decision had been taken by a certain Mr. Himmler, when he became police commander in Munich in March 1933. To include here animal testers is a major news and step - and this, according JUette , had not been researched at all before. Why? Scientists have studied soccer association, Ford / IBM / Coca cola germany, chemistry, medicin, lawyers, soldiers, policemen, rocket scientists etc but not before nazi animal welfare and Tierschutz. The whole issue Juette being important - and even sensational some years ago in germany - is that nearly nobody so far had discussed the role of animal welfare in the third reich. It was and is a taboo. Lets say Tierschutz associations are something like the NRA. Dont mess with it, ok? Animal Love is so nice and so very german- it cant have to do anything with Hitler. OK, and here comes a student and does it and starts a probably very far reaching scientifuic carrier, first paper in 2002. 6 Years late this wikipidia article is being quoted in did you know somedays after start- its very important and interesting for the english audience as well here as well. Therefore and for quality sake its important to check and control sources and I dont mid to use and check Juettes sources at all. I have started already since i dont want to waste the work I have already done. OK? BR -- Polentario ( talk) 00:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
as mentioned above, the connection between animal protection and the eraly phase of the nazi regime has not been pointed out like this before. Focus is either on the holocaust or lawwise 1900 -1933. What you need? What is your problem? I am annoyed.
I assume the interesting fact about JUettes paper that it finds and highlights this very interesting connection between animal protection and KZs and very first 100 days of the regime. It connects elemts and timelines which have been overseen so far. -- Polentario ( talk) 02:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Slim Virgin, The further sources do not have to do anything with the statements you claim. Its not 'a camp besides Dachau'. If youre not aware that Dachau was the first KZ at all, you better stop editing anything about the NS regime. You just keep on erasing edits without acknowledging facts you seem to have a special agenda or claim an approach of language purity. -- Polentario ( talk) 20:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The fact here is that we cannot use Daniel Jütte as RS because he is a student. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 09:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
As said, there are basic differences between valid regulations and bans and announcements, between state only and federal levels which are still wrong in the article. The difference between the previous animal testing friendly regulation and the ones introduced by the Reichstierschutzgesetz have not been mentioned but are essential to grasp why Tierschutz was among the most important topics. -- Polentario ( talk) 16:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The title of this section seems a bit out of place. Why single out animal liberation movements for comparison, rather than more closely parallel animal welfare laws in other countries? As the section now stands, the main focus is on the historical and ideological basis for the animal welfare program, which is an important topic for the article, but doesn't really fit the heading. Perhaps it could be reworked into a background or ideology section. -- Reuben ( talk) 00:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The domains worldfuturefund.org and hitler.org are no reliable sources or weblinks for wikipedia. Both don't have an impressum, editorial board or at least a real name given as an author. worldfuturefund.org ist just a postbox and an e-mail adress. Hitler.org seems to be a page for fans of the person H. (and his artwork) and fails to mention H.'s role and responsibiliy as a leader of a regime of mass-murderers. The external-link page of hitler.org is mainly directing to neo-nazi pages. Greetings, -- Schwalker ( talk) 21:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
What does "not acknowledged by the industrial elite" mean in this sentence in the lead? "The Nazis used a widespread combination of antisemitic thinking and a back to nature movement not acknowledged by the industrial elite which had started in the 19th century (Völkisch movement)." Also, note that the way it's written means that it was the industrial elite that had started in the 19th century. SlimVirgin talk| edits 19:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This wikipedia article is using as a sources the article Animal Rights in the Third Reich by Aslak Aikio, published in Finnish in KALTIO 2/2003, which appears to be a main Finnish magazine for culture. I think this is a reasonable text for most of its parts, but problematic to use as a source for wikipedia, since it does not reveal all its own sources. Thus the single claims should be treated with caution. For example see the sentence:
Does "moderated" here refer to the law itself, or rather to how the law was applied in practice? Also, according to the Klueting article, and other books used for the wikipedia article, not just the researchers were against the prohibiton of animal testing, but also the industry and government, but these other sources all do not seem to connect the name of Josef Mengele with animal protection policy. I think the Kaltio article also fails to mention the point that Mengele and other Nazi researchers were testing on the inhabitants of concentration camps without their consensus, and without care for their health and life. -- Schwalker ( talk) 06:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, not all of the government. However, the Kaltio article seems to be the only source so far which makes the claim that the alleged unwillingless of researchers to replace animal testing by human testing was a reason for the moderation of the laws. This is why I think that this claim is not reliable.
I agree that the Nazis rejected humanity as a concept, and reagarded Jews as sub-humans. Nevertheless, their animal protection policy was not completely different from other concepts, which can be seen from the fact that the Tierschutzgesetz would remain legal after the end of the Nazi regime. Nazis justified the ban of kosher butchering with animal welfare. This law was directed against Jews and Jewish butchers and cattle-dealers, and part of the economic persecution. Also animal testing was regarded as "Jewish" science, and Jews were prohibited to keep pets. However, animal protection was only a part of the anti-Jewish ideology, but no sufficient explanation for the persecution and attempted extermination of the European Jews.
I disagree with, and don't know of a source for your claim that for reasons of animal protection, "human testing, i.e. testing on Jews, were justified by the Nazi leadership as alternative to animals". As far as I know, the concentration camp inhabitants who were forced to participate in human testing were not only Jews but for example also Gypsies. Reasons for human testing may have been scientific interest, or sadism of the researchers under circumstances, where people were denied any human rights, but animal protection did not play a (main) role as far as I know.
Greeting, -- Schwalker ( talk) 11:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I've given a rating of B for this page as part of Wikiproject Germany, the only thing I would like to see is more supporting materials (pictures, diagrams, etc). However, exactly what type of other materials I suggest escapes me...maybe when I'm less tired. I really liked the one picture included and would like to see more. Tobyc75 ( talk) 22:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
This should be noted in the article.-- Molobo ( talk) 02:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Secondly I don't think that the nazi's or anyone ellse would like to be associated with the so called "animal rights movements" like PETA, so no need to defend yourselves there. One of the few positive aspects of the nazi ideology was indeed the treatment of animals but not to the extent of that animals should be considered our equals and have the same rights. It is simply not possible. The Nazi's put forth the foundation for modern animal welfare laws and that is what the article should be about. I'll give this some weeks for discussion, hope someone can reply. 213.100.108.205 ( talk) 11:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Which part of the things I wrote are in dispute by you 213.100.108.117 ( talk) 19:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC) mentioning the wrongdoings of Nazi Germany in this article would be off topic. Nazi Germany was bad, yes, but they did some correct things like this one. Hitler WAS pro-ecology and pro-animal rights. This doesn't make PETA "nazi" or something, but we also can't change history because it is awkward. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.124.117 ( talk) 08:50, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Can anybody clarify this question?-- MathFacts ( talk) 01:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
IS THIS A JOKE?
Which neo-Nazi party wrote this article? Goering an animal lover? It was a very well-known fact during the period that the "great" hunter was a horrible animal abuser and took much joy from seeing them suffer. So much so, it was the talk of Party gossip.
But hey: everyone knows about the "scholarly" reputation of Wikipedia. Thanks for confirming it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.45.68 ( talk) 00:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
And mentions the deep antisemitic and racist nature of animal laws in Nazi Germany as well as their connection to treatment of those classified as untermenschen. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 01:25, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Following the disruption at Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism by Tatlock123 has started inserting wholly inappropriate content at this article, which has absolutely nothing to do with animal welfare in Nazi Germany. I reverted the edits yesterday but they have been promptly restored, so I will lay out my reasons more thoroughly here:
References
With the sole exception of the use of rats in cancer research, all of this is either poorly sourced or has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. After going through all of this at Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism I am tired of this garbage being added to Hitler/Nazi articles and will not be engaging with it again on this article. If it is restored I will be requesting administrator intervention. Betty Logan ( talk) 19:22, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Betty that these edits are highly problematic. We don't need to detail every instance of animal experimentation in the Nazi era. Suffice it to say that the Nazis did not ban experiments on animals. Neither, of course, did most other countries. Going into great detail about specific experiments in rats, say, gives a very misleading impression, as it implies that the Nazis were especially cruel in this area and that this supposed cruelty somehow explains or is linked to their cruelty to humans. It's a non sequitur (since they were markedly less cruel to animals than many other nations at the time) and it is WP:SYN. Of course all the material about experiments on humans is wholly outside the scope of this aricle, since the term "animals" is clearly defined to mean non-humans. The fact that sterilisation methods were tested on animals before being used on humans simply means that standard testing procedures were followed - just as they are today. There's nothing even wrong with sterilisation. Many people choose to be sterilised. The issue here is that the Nazis didn't give any choice. In other words the content is utterly confused because it mixes up the relevant issues. If this disruption continues we will have to seek outside intervention. Paul B ( talk) 19:47, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I've just reverted and warned the user at another page, over addition of material that violates WP:COPYVIO, and I think that might also be an issue with the edits here. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:46, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
To be frank with you Betty and Paul, I feel that the pages about animal rights and the Holocaust are being presided over by a small but determined coterie of rather ignorant people. Betty says "animalrightsextremism.info does not strike me as WP:Reliable source. Animal right activism groups are neither neutral enough or qualified enough to commentate on Nazi animal welfare reform."
You clearly didn't even bother to look at the source, as it is a global information service about animal rights extremism, founded in order to give information, support and advice to research laboratories that may be suffering as targets of animal rights extremism. Far from advocating extremism, it is a leading organisation against it and is a leader in trying to outlaw such extremism, and to protect biomedical research facilities.
The article from which I quoted was published by 'Understanding Animal Research, Charles Darwin House', not by the Animal Liberation Front.
The articles on Wiki are biased, it's as simple as that. If you think that the fact that under the heading 'Animal protection as an instrument of Jewish persecution', that four lines related to Jews being prohibited from owning pets is more significant than that almost 50% of German doctors were members of the Nazi party, and that animal protection laws were used as a legal pretext to fire Jewish doctors from their jobs, strip them of their professional status, send and send them to concentration camps, then I pity you.
If you think the fact that the Nazi's did not protect animals, but quite the contrary, used them in extensive cruel experiments involving surgical castration, prior to carrying out the same experiments on human beings, then I pity you. This is just a re-run of the Hitler and Vegetarianism section. Once again, Hitler was not a vegetarian. From 1941 to 1944, there is detailed information, heavily documented, by his personal doctor, stating that Hitler received scores of injections of Euflat: pancreas extract, Glyconorm: a cocktail of extracts of the cardiac muscle, suprarenal gland, liver and pancreas, Homoseran: made from placenta, Omnadin: bovine bile extract, Orchikrin: a combination of all the hormones of males. Potency was increased by the addition of extracts of testis, seminal vesicles of young bulls. Prostakrinum:a hormone product- extract of seminal vesicles and prostata. The list could continue to include the dozens of shots received by Hitler of Liver extract. He was fully aware of what he was taking most of the time too. In evidence, he was quoted by Dr Erwin Giesing as saying, “Morell wants to give me another iodine shot today, as well as a heart-, a liver-, and a Vitamultin-Calcium injection …These things have to be shot straight into your veins.”
Of course, Dr Morell was very close to Adolf Hitler from 1941 onward. Morell had dreams of creating an enormous business processing animal glands for their secretions and hormones. A Hamma subsidiary was set up at Vinnitsa to enable Morell to exploit the immense Ukrainian slaughterhouses, and the Endocrinological Institute at Kharkov was taken over by Morell during 1943. Most of Hitler's close associates distrusted and despised Morell, but Hitler wanted him. It was Hitler's choice alone to continue with his virtual intravenous drip feed of animal glands and liver extract throughout the war.
But none of this suits your agenda, despite how well sourced and documented any of it is. Reality doesn't impinge. You have said that the sources for my edits yesterday were weak, with the exception of the rats experimentation. What is weak about Eugene Kogon, a political prisoner in Buchenwald where he served as a medical clerk in a laboratory where human experiments were conducted? His reports contain lists that include serum preparation made from rabbit lungs, mouse and rabbit livers, and typhus strains injected into guinea pigs. The notorious sterilization program carried out on concentration camp inmates was first developed on animals.
You want to make it seem as if as bad as they were, the Nazis were progressive on animal welfare. I say that is absolute rubbish. They chose a set of laws which had already been hated by animal welfare activists for 60 years. Hitler may not have put much animal produce in his mouth, but he sure made up for it with what was injected into his arm. And far from being anti vivisection, the Nazi's presided over some of the worst and cruellest ever carried out by scientists anywhere, ever.
So good luck with your little misinformation campaign, but believe me whern I tell you, this WILL go further. Tatlock123 ( talk) 05:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Nazi's were NOT animal lovers and vivisection was NOT abolished buy the Nazi's: Bayer & Heochst companies didnt want it abolished!
Bayer AND Hoecht companies (yes, where u get yr aspirins from) PAYED Mengele to do experiments on HUMANS & ANIMALS! Thanks to these VIVISECTORS (not animal friends), these experiments on the jews were done!
Joseph Mengele was a vivisector with animals bedfore, during AND after WW2! Vivisectors, who are STILL experimenting on the public, dementing elderly and such are the nazi's. Vivisectors probably WROTE this article if I look at stuff written here like 'animal rights extremists' -extremist is when you want to END suffering?
Animal friends are civilians who express their opinion, and hey - expressing yr opinion is one of the pilars of democracy! something the Nazis were against - and guess what? Vivisectors are also against animal friends to express their opinion. People who take hedonistic pleasure in inflicting pain to whomever and then say it is 'science' are EVIL, and they are the extremists!
These articles should be forbidden - like the stories that Hitler woulda been as vegetarian .. pffh! then why was his last meal with meat in there!? And if they were such animal lovers, why did Hitler poison his dog?
Why can't I find any ref's in here towards RynnBerry's "Hitler, Neither Vegetarian Nor AnimaL lover" by Pythagorean Publishers .. or C. Patterson's 'Eternal Treblinka' by Lantern Books!?
Lies should not be published - not here and not anywhere! I vote this article should be deleted - or balance it out by adding info of Isaac Bashevis Singer who WAS an animal lover AND holocaust survivor, and who was not the only one!
Two years ago my best friend died: www.MarionBienes.com at age 88 a class mate of Anne's sister Margot Frank, she lost her family in the camps, but was an animal lover and AR activist .. she would have damned the writers of this article to Hell if she had been alive to read this!
This wikipage is the so-maniest DISGRACE on the web! 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 14:09, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
http://neveragain.org.il/en/ read that and feel disgusted over yrself if you wrote in this page!
83.232.236.174 (
talk) 14:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
another one: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4655781,00.html himself a survivor of the Nazis! 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 14:18, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Wait, if one has knowledge in a field they can NOT edit here? That sounds very intelligent! So ONLY historians can edit because historians have no opinion of themselves that they put in their writings? Or all historians even agree on everything? That is absurd and not even true! So why are vivisectors allowed to edit in the pages on vivisection then? These pseudo-scientists that claim that other species can be a scientific 'model' for humans should be in jail for all the damage they inflict onto the public health (go read about it or shut up about is, as you state)! And I can know coz i'm a trained nurse - for humans .. not animals!
This ^'policy' of wiki is excactly why wiki is NOT a -pedia (and it is not what Jimmy Wales meant with 'POV'). It is a project where even toddlers can edit - so why can some people NOT contribute!? Because not all 'animals' are equal in your eyes? I know wiki polici says that if there is debate about truth on a matter it should NOT BE IN THE article AT ALL - so why does this bl**dy article even exist? (Let me tell you, it is written here by people to make animal-friends look bad; not to make nazi's look good!)
And HOW do you know that Einstein was NOT a vegetarian? Were you there? Nonsens! Why are there quotes of him citing that he was (but sadly not always succeeded in it while he tried to be)!? And Adolf Hitler was NOT a vegetarian - thinking that HE was is rhetoric! You will probably not even be interested why because you are a historian or because I am not? But vegetarians usually do NOT have meat as their last-meal on earth, which he did! A vegetarian does not WANT meat, yet he DID! That makes Hitler NOT a vegetarian. Or do you not understand what makes a vegetarian a vegetarian?
Rynn Berry, by the way, was specialized in the history of vegetarianism - that makes him INDEED an expert on the subject instead of what you called him - namely a liar .. And you are such a good historian that you do not even know that he IS not any more - he's died, you know.
So let me draw a conclusion right here: Since Bayer, Hoechst and other vivisection companies payed (!) the nazi's to experiment on humans as well as on animals, vivisecors are all nazi's, and they enabled nazism - made it possible - were ABOVE the Reich's Fuhrer if they had such powers to re-legalize vivisection! Animal experiments dont predict about humans, or otherwise I dare all vivisectonists (who are all pro-vivisection activists & who thus shouldn't edit on vivisection or ANY pages @ wikipedia about health because they are POV and their work is NOT verifiable or even reliable at all regarding humans) to take a spoon full of arsenic (coz sheep can eat kilo's of it) mixed with the same amount of strychnine (entirely safe in guinea pigs, chickens and monkeys)! Just a few examples ...
Simply because someone is active (where the word activist comes from; opposite of being passive about something) pro- or against something does not automatically make them liars, you know - or even inadequate about the subject they seek change in. You are probably one of those POV-people who also say Jezus of Nazareth ate meat? Well I am not a historian but lemme tell you that the Essenian jews NEVER ate meat, so Jezus was a vegetarian .. Someone who is active for a cause is a civilian who uses/practices their lawful & constitutional rights to voice their opinion + their right to protest: these are the 2 pilars where our democracy rests on(!) If you do not agree on that, then you yourself are POV, as well as unreliable and should not be on any wiki-project at all. But please move to a country where there is no democracy if you do not believe in it. Ridiculous!
Actually, stating that people who are active in a field (are liars and) cannot express themselves (edit) on that subject makes you quite .. ehhm fascist .. ? Maybe you should take the /info/en/?search=F-scale_%28personality_test%29 that was developed by vegetarian (woops!) /info/en/?search=Theodor_W._Adorno ... 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 10:46, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
I notice that, while some content here is unwanted because someone was active for a cause while he was alive his knowledge is not to be used here becvause he wasn't a historian (as if historians know everything) and because he pushed a vegetarian agenda (!?); meanwhile in this article there are statements that come from a very NPOV an unreliable source: Kathleen Marquardt .. of all fascists she is really something: she is not only against animals, she is also against animal protection, against animal rights AND against animal rights 'activism' (people who use their democratic right in their spare time go out of their way to help the helpless from the same system of the nazis but then 100 x more evil)! This person founded Putting People First, which is an anti-animal organisation whose ONLY agenda is to make animal friends look bad! Was this Fascistoid Kathleen herself present at the time when this fisherman was sent to a concentration camp? Most likely NOT! -unreliable; yet included in this article!
If material gathered by Rynn Berry cannot be used, most certainly Kathleen Marquardt's information cannot be seen as neutral, verifiable or neutral. This is why I am putting the wiki-POV template(s) on this article. It cannot be so that one's information here IS wanted while another's is not - resulting in an article that is not NPOV and not neutral. If you want to include Reichpropaganda in here all made up by Goebbels that this is a make-believe page. The so-maniest in wikipedia, next to the vivisection-pages edited by vivisectionists who push an animal-testing agenda. This is NOT what wikipedia was meant for.
And ohh, I still cannot find your information here on how the big vivisector companies had so much power over the nazis that they were able to re-legalize vivisection and how they PAID the nazis for their human and animal vivisection, as Dr. Mengele sent his invoices to them. The same vivisectionists that still make animal AND human victims by their toxic pills (DES, Softenon, Halcion, Thalidomide and so on). Maybe that information should be included on the animal testing articles as well; or are too many not-NPOV vivisectors editing those pages in their non-neutral way? 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 14:52, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
If material gathered by Rynn Berry cannot be used, most certainly Kathleen Marquardt's information cannot be seen as neutral, verifiable or neutral. It cannot be so that one's information here IS wanted while another's is not - resulting in an article that is not NPOV and not neutral. If you want to include Reichpropaganda in here all made up by Goebbels that this is a make-believe page. The so-maniest in wikipedia, next to the vivisection-pages edited by vivisectionists who push an animal-testing agenda. You seem to be a NPOV-pusher. == Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion ==
Hello, Animal welfare in Nazi Germany. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Kathleen Marquardt's is anti-animal activist & anti-animalrights activist. She founded an activist organisation AGAINST animal friends, named 'Putting People First'. According to what you wrote she cannot be included for the same reasons Rynn Berry's information is, according to you, unwanted. But apparently you are the only one who can make decisions here? You are not Jimmy Wales though. 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 12:06, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Furthermore, when will all other wikipedians that are not historians and lawyers be deleted as 'users', as well as all others who put coloured information into wikipedia..? 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 10:09, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Could we have at least one paragraph explaining what the motivation was here. How did animal welfare connect to Nazi ideology in general? LastDodo ( talk) 16:53, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
dude, i get you're anglo, but there was nothing bipartisan about the Reichstag in 1933. [6]. -- 88.73.89.194 ( talk) 11:54, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
As a Hebrew speaker, who is able to read the Hebrew version of this entry, imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only is it way more informative - but the information is almost completely opposite to the one in the English entry. The sources (120 of them) state that most of the "positive" things we know about the Nazis are rooted in Nazi propaganda, and that they in fact abused slaughtered and burned alive millions of dogs, cats, horses and rabbits.
For instance, the following:
כאשר הצבא הגרמני קיבל הוראה לנטוש את חצי האי קרים ב-8 במאי 1944, היטלר הורה לטבוח ב-30,000 הסוסים של הצבא הגרמני בטרם נטישת הכוחות כדי שלא יפלו כשלל בידי הרוסים. הגרמנים העמידו את הסוסים בשורות וירו בהם. היה זה, ככל הנראה, טבח הסוסים הגדול ביותר בהיסטוריה
"When the German army recieved orders to abandon Crimea on May 8th 1944, Hitler ordered the slaughter of the 30 thousand horses of the German army before they leave, so they aren't taken by the Russians. The Germans lined up the horses and shot them. It was, apparently, the largest horse slaughter in history".
Sources: - Responce to Arluke and Sax. Helmut Meyer, Institüt für Tierernährung, Tierärtzliche Hochschule Hannover, D-3000 Hannover, Germany in Arluke, Arnold, and Boria Sax. "Understanding Nazi animal protection and the Holocaust." Anthrozoös 5.1 (1992): 6-31.
- Part 2: The Symbolism of Animals in Nazi Germany. Sax, Boria. Animals in the Third Reich: Pets, scapegoats, and the Holocaust. A&C Black, 2000.
I suggest some deeper and more thorough fact checking. 212.199.101.60 ( talk) 15:31, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
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Do you have any other sources for this claim? Jammy Simpson | Talk | 16:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
This whole paragraph is hogwash. Principally, the whole bundle of laws for animal and nature protection was never abolished after WW2, at least in west Germany. The three laws (Reichsnaturschutzgesetz, Tierschutzgesetz, Reichsjagdgesetz) were taken over by the federal republic with only minor changes, like making it easier to claim compensation for environmental measures. Same goes for the cruelty to animals paragraph in the criminal code (StGB). In fact, laws made between 1933 and 45 were generally only changed as far as they contained nazi ideology. The fact that the Wolf is extinct in Germany is because the areas were wolves live were no longer german territory. In the present day borders of Germany, the Wolf has been extinct at least 150 years, even though occasional packs move in from Poland in cold winters and some might have taken up permanent residence recently. JCRitter ( talk) 16:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
“ | After the defeat of Nazi Germany in World War II, most of the animal protection laws enacted by the Nazis were dissolved in Germany. The wolf became extinct and nature preservation areas were turned into agricultural lands. Until the beginning of the 1970s, everything related to nature preservation were wiped out in Germany. | ” |
Per the above argument, the following sentences can be removed:
I am removing these sentences per above argument. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 16:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
"In the United Kingdom, few neo-Nazi groups who read Nazi Germany's effort for protection of animal rights, tried to join the animal liberation movement.[3]"
Should this actually say "a few" rather than "few" - the addition of "a" more-or-less reverses the sense of the sentence! 87.113.49.73 ( talk) 18:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
What was the purpose of removing the photo of Adolf Hitler with his dog? The comment associated with that edit suggests to me that the editor felt that this was may have been painting Hitler in too positive a light, but is it not also true that Hitler was indeed an animal lover and this should not be concealed? The photo was appropriate and illustrative of this and seemed like an excellent companion to the article. Just my opinion, it made the article better and was a service by breaking the assumption that Hitler or Nazis were unmitigated evil (not to say they were acceptable or defensible, only that they were human). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.255.103.63 ( talk) 01:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I was very surprised to find such a quite ite detailed article / own lemma about the topic of Nazi animal rights / welfare here. I had just recently introduced these points into aome articles in the german wikipedia. PLease allow me to update some elemts of the english lemma based on a dedicated study about the Reichstierschutzgesetz and its role in Nazi campaigns and propaganda. -- Polentario ( talk) 00:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
“ | The legal frameworks and concepts of the Reichstierschutzgesetz and further conservationist laws have been developed close cooperation with a broad involvement of people, a genuine conservationist movement and organisation and were a valid success which is in place still today. Besides Law making, serious research funds were earmarked in geography, ecology, landscape protection and Soil research - delivering a serious base of still valuable research under a Blut und Boden mythical propaganda overlay. Basically they are still valid and have been kept (in the west) with only minor updates in the 70ties and have just been copied in eastern Germany around 1954.
Before the war some remote parallels and interaction between the various 'New Deals' on both sides of the atlantic can be drawn. As well influential American industrialist and antisemite Henry Ford closely cooperated with Hitler. |
” |
Only the above paragraph was sourced. Foloowing was unsourced addition.
“ | Besides German conservationist and landscape protection schemes for major infrastructure projects involved as the autobahns found international acknowledgement and had an impact on the Federal Highway system in the US. On the other hand, not only the US federal park scheme was copied and applied to German circumstances.
Along with Wolfgang Schivelbusch sensitive comparision of what he calls 'Three New Deals' it has to be said against a reductio ad hitlerum that the major difference is not to be found in the -often similar- appraisal of new technical schemes and developements but in democracy and dictatorship. While Hitler and Mussolini used Radio adresses, airplanes, IBM statistical tools and Ford and Opel lorries to immerse themselves into the masses and to motivate and shout them into projects that finally lead them into war and genocide, Franklin Roosevelts Fireplace chats were chats - and a genial way to interact and motivate with individuals in a to be reformed democratic society. The way western Germany successfully dealt with this heritage was to pragmatically adapt to the American way in that respect without doing away with the technical structures and the gained knowledge. |
” |
You changed the section "Difference from animal liberation movement" and added unsourced information. Please follow WP:V. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 08:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Also you have added German quote in the article mainspace
“ | Das nationalsozialistische Reichstierschutzgesetz muss als ein historischer Grenzfall angesehen werde: Während es vom Standpunkt des Tierschutzes aus betrachtet, einen Fortschritt für die damalige Zeit darstellte, so ist der Tierschutzgedanke, der dem Gesetz zugrunde liegt, unabdingbarer Teil der nationalsozialistischen Weltanschauung. Der Übergang von Tier- zu Menschenversuchen im Dritten Reich ist also keine direkte Konsequenz des Reichstierschutzgesetzes, sondern vielmehr eine Folge einer Ideologie, die ihre Menschenverachtung auch durch eine Aufwertung von Tieren legitimierte. | ” |
The translation is needed in the article mainspace, in English wikipedia, you have to write in English. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 08:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I assume we have a different style in providing source. While you prefer en detail sourcing, resulting in barbed wire footmarking (which is OK, but not always done or needed), I tend more to give a generic abstract about the sources and to tell freely. My changes are based, as I have pointed out when i started editing, Schivelbusch and Daniel Jütte. Further points and detiled issues have been pointed out in text.
The quotation you mentioned quotation is the abstract of my most valuable source. As there is no existing valided translation, I give the original text and in brackets my personal translation. [2] Daniel Jütte, Tierschutz und Nationalsozialismus, Die Entstehung und die Auswirkungen des nationalsozialistischen Reichstierschutzgesetzes von 1933 (Animal Protection and Nationalsocialism, Rise and effect of the national socialist Animal Protection Law of 1933)IDB Münster • Ber. Inst. Didaktik Biologie Suppl.2 (2002) -- Polentario ( talk) 08:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
the two quotations of Himmler and of Jütte give the basic outline. The differences to animal liberation movement are given by comparision of Himmler and the Furoyn murderer, as well about the Euthanasia program and PETAs.
Daniel Jütte has described en detail the continuity and the differences - the abstract gives the generalkonzept, the rest is details along tha basic outline. -- Polentario ( talk) 08:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
OK- thats personal resaerch - the Rohrmoser bullshit is to be found on the german wikipedia as a seríuos link, Rohrmoser is a sort of German Neocon with extrem righht allegations
2 important Points about this:
An to explain the parallels and to make those distinctions, I foudn the shivelbusch comparision very valuable - therefore the corollar. And if you should happen to read the point about the (english source) about the vegan Jihadist - there is a parallelity of his approach to value animals more than human beings which is again in line with the Nazi thinking pointed out very clealry by Jütte. Graaf is not Himmler and Ingrid Kirk is not a Euthansia nazi. But similarity in the abstract approach are visible and can be pointed out.
Final Hint: I assume in reality you have not used original reasearch at all but those cato guys have been inspired by Jütte and his sources. Jütte was not even a student when he worte the 100 page essay for a competition of the German President. He won the first prize and the essay has been downsized to articles in Sueddeutsche Zeitung and FAZ, NYT class newspapers in this country. As said I see this source as an valuable improvement of your lemma, not an attack. But its up to wikipedia to decide. -- Polentario ( talk) 09:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
1. Animal rights movement has disdain for humaity comepared to animals. Peter Singer and Kaplan do not respect disabled people compared to a Chimpanzee 2. Furtuyn is a single case. OK, murder might be more popular in the US and besides Theo van Gogh it was the first case of political murder in non occupied holland for centuries. It was a show case - and it was about animal rights versus freedom of fur, besides muslim hypocrisy. Sources have been given. -- Polentario ( talk) 09:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
OK Daniel Jütte is a German Jew and historian. He was born 1984 in Israel and went 1989 to Germany. A a pupil in Stuttgar, he researched and wrote an 100 page essay for the Bundespräsidents historical competition. It won a 2001 a first prize. THe pdf I have quoted is a shortened version - after the prize Jütte got several professional tutors - based on an article in [[[FAZ]] which was published at the WWU Münster University department Didaktik der Biologie papers. Jütte has presented the results e.g. in Alte Synagoge. He started historical studies with the highest ranking scholarschip in germany, Studienstiftung des Deutschen Volkes and 2004 he was doing foreign studies about musical history in with a scholaarschip of Deutsches Studienzentrum in Venice. The FAZ quoted the éssay Anima Protection and National Socialism - a fatal connection, Sueddeutsche had done a longer essay within their historical features. Jütte points are en detail quoted in a left wing online newspaper http://www.trend.infopartisan.net/trd0407/t150407.html.
I saw a lot of bullshit questions in this discussion entry, as "I never heard of this and it cannot be". You personally have received a Tireless barnstar, for providing fringe topics. This is not a fringe topic, including the very high importance of the Hitler and Blondi homestories within NS propaganda, Himmlers animal protection quote - which u have erased as well for whatever reasons. My personal experience with english speaking scholars is a bllody arrogant attiditue, what has not been published in english doesnt exist. Does it apply to Wikipedia as well? I mean the topic of research and the legal heritage was and is German. Accept and Use sources from this country. What u quote is mostly based on translations, not on original reasearch.
-- Polentario ( talk) 19:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
-- Polentario ( talk) 21:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I have some concerns about the main source being used here. First, I have never heard of Hitler supporting animal rights, as opposed to protection/welfare, so we would need to see a good, specialist source for this claim. Secondly, the law was called animal protection, not animal rights.
Do we have a mainstream source that shows the term "animal rights" was ever used (or implied)? SlimVirgin talk| edits 11:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
If you have never heard about this - its probably due to the fact that youre not very close to Germany. Animal protection was a focal point of Hitlers propaganda and politics. An infamous proof is to be found in the Posen speech of heinrich Himmler. I have given variuos German sources on that. -- Polentario ( talk) 18:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Below is the quote from Boria Sax:
The Nazi strictures on animal protection were very explicit in their rejection of anthropocentric perspective -- animals were not to be protected for the sake of human interests but for themselves.
Animals in the Third Reich: Pets, Scapegoats, and the Holocaust by Boria Sax Page 42. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 15:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
The Nazi strictures on animal protection were very explicit in their rejection of anthropocentric perspective -- animals were not to be protected for the sake of human interests but for themselves (i.e. Giese and Kahler, p. 13). An intensified hierarchy, however, replaced humanism as an organized principle.
Some points I miss and have concerns and some points I'like to introduce or improve
First The Dachau concentration camp the first one started its operations in June 1933. It was mainly used to detain high level political enemies of the nazis, the opening was not at all formally announced in public. Juette mentions the fact that Goering in August did one of the first public announcement of the existence of those camps especially about animal protection. It - according Juiette - clearly shows the importance of animnal protection for the nazis.
OK Lets do some secondary research. Juettes text attached, I do some remarks where i found the points
Es gehört zu den kaum erforschten Ereignissen in der Zeit kurz nach Hitlers Machtergreifung im Januar 1933, dass bereits am 1. April 1933 der Beschluss der neuen nationalsozialistischen Regierung fiel, ein Reichstierschutzgesetz zu erlassen.
Reichsinnenminister Wilhelm Frick erhielt den Auftrag, ein solches Gesetz auszuarbeiten, und begann umgehend mit den Arbeiten. Da ein derartiges Gesetz ein Novum in der deutschen Rechtsgeschichte darstellte und die Abfassung daher unerwartete Probleme mit sich brachte, wurde erst die vierte Fassung des Gesetzentwurfs vom 4. November 1933 vom Kabinett am 14.11.33 als beschlussfähig angesehen, nachdem bereits drei durchaus verschiedene Fassungen vorausgegangen waren. Immer wieder hatten Tierschutzverbände Gesetzesvorschläge und -entwürfe beim Reichsinnenminister eingereicht und auf die Klärung von Detailfragen gedrungen.
Die Weichen für das Grundanliegen des Gesetzes waren freilich schon lange vorher gestellt worden: Am 16. August 1933, über drei Monate vor Erlass des Reichstierschutzgesetzes, hatte Hermann Göring in seiner Funktion als preußischer Ministerpräsident die „Vivisektion an Tieren aller Art für das gesamte preußische Staatsgebiet“ per Erlass als verboten erklärt. Eilfertig kommentierte die Reichspressestelle der NSDAP am nächsten Tag: „Der Ministerpräsident hat die zuständigen Ministerien beauftragt, ihm unverzüglich ein Gesetz vorzulegen, nach dem die Vivisektion mit hohen Strafen belegt wird. Bis zum Erlaß dieses Gesetzes werden Personen, die trotz des Verbotes die Vivisektion veranlassen, durchführen oder sich daran beteiligen, ins Konzentrationslager abgeführt.“ (zit. nach EBERSTEIN, 1999, 210)
Obwohl die deutsche Geschichtswissenschaft diese Quelle mitsamt ihrer bemerkenswert frühen Verwendung des Wortes „Konzentrationslager“ bislang völlig übersehen hat, kann der Text auf eindrückliche Weise verdeutlichen, wie ernst die Nationalsozialisten ihre Bemühungen um den Tierschutz meinten. Dass ausgerechnet Vivisektoren strafrechtlich mit den erklärten Feinden des Regimes (KPD, SPD etc.) auf eine Stufe gestellt wurden, verdeutlicht, dass der Tierschutz prominenten Nationalsozialisten, wie beispielsweise Göring, besonders am Herzen lag. Es ist anzunehmen, dass Görings Drohung die in Preußen tätigen Wissenschaftler eingeschüchtert und den Protest der Ärzteschaft unterdrückt hat.
BR -- Polentario ( talk) 23:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not talking about my OR, but I know about sources which are obvioiusly not available in the states. I need half an hour to have a look on dachau exhibition and documentation center. How far away are you? Its a German topic, isn't it?
OK, again. June 1933 the Dachau camp was opened as detainment for high level political enemies - about 5000 people in the whole Reich. It started very small. The decision had been taken by a certain Mr. Himmler, when he became police commander in Munich in March 1933. To include here animal testers is a major news and step - and this, according JUette , had not been researched at all before. Why? Scientists have studied soccer association, Ford / IBM / Coca cola germany, chemistry, medicin, lawyers, soldiers, policemen, rocket scientists etc but not before nazi animal welfare and Tierschutz. The whole issue Juette being important - and even sensational some years ago in germany - is that nearly nobody so far had discussed the role of animal welfare in the third reich. It was and is a taboo. Lets say Tierschutz associations are something like the NRA. Dont mess with it, ok? Animal Love is so nice and so very german- it cant have to do anything with Hitler. OK, and here comes a student and does it and starts a probably very far reaching scientifuic carrier, first paper in 2002. 6 Years late this wikipidia article is being quoted in did you know somedays after start- its very important and interesting for the english audience as well here as well. Therefore and for quality sake its important to check and control sources and I dont mid to use and check Juettes sources at all. I have started already since i dont want to waste the work I have already done. OK? BR -- Polentario ( talk) 00:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
as mentioned above, the connection between animal protection and the eraly phase of the nazi regime has not been pointed out like this before. Focus is either on the holocaust or lawwise 1900 -1933. What you need? What is your problem? I am annoyed.
I assume the interesting fact about JUettes paper that it finds and highlights this very interesting connection between animal protection and KZs and very first 100 days of the regime. It connects elemts and timelines which have been overseen so far. -- Polentario ( talk) 02:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Slim Virgin, The further sources do not have to do anything with the statements you claim. Its not 'a camp besides Dachau'. If youre not aware that Dachau was the first KZ at all, you better stop editing anything about the NS regime. You just keep on erasing edits without acknowledging facts you seem to have a special agenda or claim an approach of language purity. -- Polentario ( talk) 20:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The fact here is that we cannot use Daniel Jütte as RS because he is a student. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 09:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
As said, there are basic differences between valid regulations and bans and announcements, between state only and federal levels which are still wrong in the article. The difference between the previous animal testing friendly regulation and the ones introduced by the Reichstierschutzgesetz have not been mentioned but are essential to grasp why Tierschutz was among the most important topics. -- Polentario ( talk) 16:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The title of this section seems a bit out of place. Why single out animal liberation movements for comparison, rather than more closely parallel animal welfare laws in other countries? As the section now stands, the main focus is on the historical and ideological basis for the animal welfare program, which is an important topic for the article, but doesn't really fit the heading. Perhaps it could be reworked into a background or ideology section. -- Reuben ( talk) 00:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The domains worldfuturefund.org and hitler.org are no reliable sources or weblinks for wikipedia. Both don't have an impressum, editorial board or at least a real name given as an author. worldfuturefund.org ist just a postbox and an e-mail adress. Hitler.org seems to be a page for fans of the person H. (and his artwork) and fails to mention H.'s role and responsibiliy as a leader of a regime of mass-murderers. The external-link page of hitler.org is mainly directing to neo-nazi pages. Greetings, -- Schwalker ( talk) 21:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
What does "not acknowledged by the industrial elite" mean in this sentence in the lead? "The Nazis used a widespread combination of antisemitic thinking and a back to nature movement not acknowledged by the industrial elite which had started in the 19th century (Völkisch movement)." Also, note that the way it's written means that it was the industrial elite that had started in the 19th century. SlimVirgin talk| edits 19:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This wikipedia article is using as a sources the article Animal Rights in the Third Reich by Aslak Aikio, published in Finnish in KALTIO 2/2003, which appears to be a main Finnish magazine for culture. I think this is a reasonable text for most of its parts, but problematic to use as a source for wikipedia, since it does not reveal all its own sources. Thus the single claims should be treated with caution. For example see the sentence:
Does "moderated" here refer to the law itself, or rather to how the law was applied in practice? Also, according to the Klueting article, and other books used for the wikipedia article, not just the researchers were against the prohibiton of animal testing, but also the industry and government, but these other sources all do not seem to connect the name of Josef Mengele with animal protection policy. I think the Kaltio article also fails to mention the point that Mengele and other Nazi researchers were testing on the inhabitants of concentration camps without their consensus, and without care for their health and life. -- Schwalker ( talk) 06:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, not all of the government. However, the Kaltio article seems to be the only source so far which makes the claim that the alleged unwillingless of researchers to replace animal testing by human testing was a reason for the moderation of the laws. This is why I think that this claim is not reliable.
I agree that the Nazis rejected humanity as a concept, and reagarded Jews as sub-humans. Nevertheless, their animal protection policy was not completely different from other concepts, which can be seen from the fact that the Tierschutzgesetz would remain legal after the end of the Nazi regime. Nazis justified the ban of kosher butchering with animal welfare. This law was directed against Jews and Jewish butchers and cattle-dealers, and part of the economic persecution. Also animal testing was regarded as "Jewish" science, and Jews were prohibited to keep pets. However, animal protection was only a part of the anti-Jewish ideology, but no sufficient explanation for the persecution and attempted extermination of the European Jews.
I disagree with, and don't know of a source for your claim that for reasons of animal protection, "human testing, i.e. testing on Jews, were justified by the Nazi leadership as alternative to animals". As far as I know, the concentration camp inhabitants who were forced to participate in human testing were not only Jews but for example also Gypsies. Reasons for human testing may have been scientific interest, or sadism of the researchers under circumstances, where people were denied any human rights, but animal protection did not play a (main) role as far as I know.
Greeting, -- Schwalker ( talk) 11:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I've given a rating of B for this page as part of Wikiproject Germany, the only thing I would like to see is more supporting materials (pictures, diagrams, etc). However, exactly what type of other materials I suggest escapes me...maybe when I'm less tired. I really liked the one picture included and would like to see more. Tobyc75 ( talk) 22:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
This should be noted in the article.-- Molobo ( talk) 02:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Secondly I don't think that the nazi's or anyone ellse would like to be associated with the so called "animal rights movements" like PETA, so no need to defend yourselves there. One of the few positive aspects of the nazi ideology was indeed the treatment of animals but not to the extent of that animals should be considered our equals and have the same rights. It is simply not possible. The Nazi's put forth the foundation for modern animal welfare laws and that is what the article should be about. I'll give this some weeks for discussion, hope someone can reply. 213.100.108.205 ( talk) 11:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Which part of the things I wrote are in dispute by you 213.100.108.117 ( talk) 19:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC) mentioning the wrongdoings of Nazi Germany in this article would be off topic. Nazi Germany was bad, yes, but they did some correct things like this one. Hitler WAS pro-ecology and pro-animal rights. This doesn't make PETA "nazi" or something, but we also can't change history because it is awkward. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.124.117 ( talk) 08:50, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Can anybody clarify this question?-- MathFacts ( talk) 01:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
IS THIS A JOKE?
Which neo-Nazi party wrote this article? Goering an animal lover? It was a very well-known fact during the period that the "great" hunter was a horrible animal abuser and took much joy from seeing them suffer. So much so, it was the talk of Party gossip.
But hey: everyone knows about the "scholarly" reputation of Wikipedia. Thanks for confirming it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.45.68 ( talk) 00:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
And mentions the deep antisemitic and racist nature of animal laws in Nazi Germany as well as their connection to treatment of those classified as untermenschen. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 01:25, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Following the disruption at Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism by Tatlock123 has started inserting wholly inappropriate content at this article, which has absolutely nothing to do with animal welfare in Nazi Germany. I reverted the edits yesterday but they have been promptly restored, so I will lay out my reasons more thoroughly here:
References
With the sole exception of the use of rats in cancer research, all of this is either poorly sourced or has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. After going through all of this at Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism I am tired of this garbage being added to Hitler/Nazi articles and will not be engaging with it again on this article. If it is restored I will be requesting administrator intervention. Betty Logan ( talk) 19:22, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Betty that these edits are highly problematic. We don't need to detail every instance of animal experimentation in the Nazi era. Suffice it to say that the Nazis did not ban experiments on animals. Neither, of course, did most other countries. Going into great detail about specific experiments in rats, say, gives a very misleading impression, as it implies that the Nazis were especially cruel in this area and that this supposed cruelty somehow explains or is linked to their cruelty to humans. It's a non sequitur (since they were markedly less cruel to animals than many other nations at the time) and it is WP:SYN. Of course all the material about experiments on humans is wholly outside the scope of this aricle, since the term "animals" is clearly defined to mean non-humans. The fact that sterilisation methods were tested on animals before being used on humans simply means that standard testing procedures were followed - just as they are today. There's nothing even wrong with sterilisation. Many people choose to be sterilised. The issue here is that the Nazis didn't give any choice. In other words the content is utterly confused because it mixes up the relevant issues. If this disruption continues we will have to seek outside intervention. Paul B ( talk) 19:47, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I've just reverted and warned the user at another page, over addition of material that violates WP:COPYVIO, and I think that might also be an issue with the edits here. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:46, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
To be frank with you Betty and Paul, I feel that the pages about animal rights and the Holocaust are being presided over by a small but determined coterie of rather ignorant people. Betty says "animalrightsextremism.info does not strike me as WP:Reliable source. Animal right activism groups are neither neutral enough or qualified enough to commentate on Nazi animal welfare reform."
You clearly didn't even bother to look at the source, as it is a global information service about animal rights extremism, founded in order to give information, support and advice to research laboratories that may be suffering as targets of animal rights extremism. Far from advocating extremism, it is a leading organisation against it and is a leader in trying to outlaw such extremism, and to protect biomedical research facilities.
The article from which I quoted was published by 'Understanding Animal Research, Charles Darwin House', not by the Animal Liberation Front.
The articles on Wiki are biased, it's as simple as that. If you think that the fact that under the heading 'Animal protection as an instrument of Jewish persecution', that four lines related to Jews being prohibited from owning pets is more significant than that almost 50% of German doctors were members of the Nazi party, and that animal protection laws were used as a legal pretext to fire Jewish doctors from their jobs, strip them of their professional status, send and send them to concentration camps, then I pity you.
If you think the fact that the Nazi's did not protect animals, but quite the contrary, used them in extensive cruel experiments involving surgical castration, prior to carrying out the same experiments on human beings, then I pity you. This is just a re-run of the Hitler and Vegetarianism section. Once again, Hitler was not a vegetarian. From 1941 to 1944, there is detailed information, heavily documented, by his personal doctor, stating that Hitler received scores of injections of Euflat: pancreas extract, Glyconorm: a cocktail of extracts of the cardiac muscle, suprarenal gland, liver and pancreas, Homoseran: made from placenta, Omnadin: bovine bile extract, Orchikrin: a combination of all the hormones of males. Potency was increased by the addition of extracts of testis, seminal vesicles of young bulls. Prostakrinum:a hormone product- extract of seminal vesicles and prostata. The list could continue to include the dozens of shots received by Hitler of Liver extract. He was fully aware of what he was taking most of the time too. In evidence, he was quoted by Dr Erwin Giesing as saying, “Morell wants to give me another iodine shot today, as well as a heart-, a liver-, and a Vitamultin-Calcium injection …These things have to be shot straight into your veins.”
Of course, Dr Morell was very close to Adolf Hitler from 1941 onward. Morell had dreams of creating an enormous business processing animal glands for their secretions and hormones. A Hamma subsidiary was set up at Vinnitsa to enable Morell to exploit the immense Ukrainian slaughterhouses, and the Endocrinological Institute at Kharkov was taken over by Morell during 1943. Most of Hitler's close associates distrusted and despised Morell, but Hitler wanted him. It was Hitler's choice alone to continue with his virtual intravenous drip feed of animal glands and liver extract throughout the war.
But none of this suits your agenda, despite how well sourced and documented any of it is. Reality doesn't impinge. You have said that the sources for my edits yesterday were weak, with the exception of the rats experimentation. What is weak about Eugene Kogon, a political prisoner in Buchenwald where he served as a medical clerk in a laboratory where human experiments were conducted? His reports contain lists that include serum preparation made from rabbit lungs, mouse and rabbit livers, and typhus strains injected into guinea pigs. The notorious sterilization program carried out on concentration camp inmates was first developed on animals.
You want to make it seem as if as bad as they were, the Nazis were progressive on animal welfare. I say that is absolute rubbish. They chose a set of laws which had already been hated by animal welfare activists for 60 years. Hitler may not have put much animal produce in his mouth, but he sure made up for it with what was injected into his arm. And far from being anti vivisection, the Nazi's presided over some of the worst and cruellest ever carried out by scientists anywhere, ever.
So good luck with your little misinformation campaign, but believe me whern I tell you, this WILL go further. Tatlock123 ( talk) 05:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Nazi's were NOT animal lovers and vivisection was NOT abolished buy the Nazi's: Bayer & Heochst companies didnt want it abolished!
Bayer AND Hoecht companies (yes, where u get yr aspirins from) PAYED Mengele to do experiments on HUMANS & ANIMALS! Thanks to these VIVISECTORS (not animal friends), these experiments on the jews were done!
Joseph Mengele was a vivisector with animals bedfore, during AND after WW2! Vivisectors, who are STILL experimenting on the public, dementing elderly and such are the nazi's. Vivisectors probably WROTE this article if I look at stuff written here like 'animal rights extremists' -extremist is when you want to END suffering?
Animal friends are civilians who express their opinion, and hey - expressing yr opinion is one of the pilars of democracy! something the Nazis were against - and guess what? Vivisectors are also against animal friends to express their opinion. People who take hedonistic pleasure in inflicting pain to whomever and then say it is 'science' are EVIL, and they are the extremists!
These articles should be forbidden - like the stories that Hitler woulda been as vegetarian .. pffh! then why was his last meal with meat in there!? And if they were such animal lovers, why did Hitler poison his dog?
Why can't I find any ref's in here towards RynnBerry's "Hitler, Neither Vegetarian Nor AnimaL lover" by Pythagorean Publishers .. or C. Patterson's 'Eternal Treblinka' by Lantern Books!?
Lies should not be published - not here and not anywhere! I vote this article should be deleted - or balance it out by adding info of Isaac Bashevis Singer who WAS an animal lover AND holocaust survivor, and who was not the only one!
Two years ago my best friend died: www.MarionBienes.com at age 88 a class mate of Anne's sister Margot Frank, she lost her family in the camps, but was an animal lover and AR activist .. she would have damned the writers of this article to Hell if she had been alive to read this!
This wikipage is the so-maniest DISGRACE on the web! 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 14:09, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
http://neveragain.org.il/en/ read that and feel disgusted over yrself if you wrote in this page!
83.232.236.174 (
talk) 14:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
another one: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4655781,00.html himself a survivor of the Nazis! 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 14:18, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Wait, if one has knowledge in a field they can NOT edit here? That sounds very intelligent! So ONLY historians can edit because historians have no opinion of themselves that they put in their writings? Or all historians even agree on everything? That is absurd and not even true! So why are vivisectors allowed to edit in the pages on vivisection then? These pseudo-scientists that claim that other species can be a scientific 'model' for humans should be in jail for all the damage they inflict onto the public health (go read about it or shut up about is, as you state)! And I can know coz i'm a trained nurse - for humans .. not animals!
This ^'policy' of wiki is excactly why wiki is NOT a -pedia (and it is not what Jimmy Wales meant with 'POV'). It is a project where even toddlers can edit - so why can some people NOT contribute!? Because not all 'animals' are equal in your eyes? I know wiki polici says that if there is debate about truth on a matter it should NOT BE IN THE article AT ALL - so why does this bl**dy article even exist? (Let me tell you, it is written here by people to make animal-friends look bad; not to make nazi's look good!)
And HOW do you know that Einstein was NOT a vegetarian? Were you there? Nonsens! Why are there quotes of him citing that he was (but sadly not always succeeded in it while he tried to be)!? And Adolf Hitler was NOT a vegetarian - thinking that HE was is rhetoric! You will probably not even be interested why because you are a historian or because I am not? But vegetarians usually do NOT have meat as their last-meal on earth, which he did! A vegetarian does not WANT meat, yet he DID! That makes Hitler NOT a vegetarian. Or do you not understand what makes a vegetarian a vegetarian?
Rynn Berry, by the way, was specialized in the history of vegetarianism - that makes him INDEED an expert on the subject instead of what you called him - namely a liar .. And you are such a good historian that you do not even know that he IS not any more - he's died, you know.
So let me draw a conclusion right here: Since Bayer, Hoechst and other vivisection companies payed (!) the nazi's to experiment on humans as well as on animals, vivisecors are all nazi's, and they enabled nazism - made it possible - were ABOVE the Reich's Fuhrer if they had such powers to re-legalize vivisection! Animal experiments dont predict about humans, or otherwise I dare all vivisectonists (who are all pro-vivisection activists & who thus shouldn't edit on vivisection or ANY pages @ wikipedia about health because they are POV and their work is NOT verifiable or even reliable at all regarding humans) to take a spoon full of arsenic (coz sheep can eat kilo's of it) mixed with the same amount of strychnine (entirely safe in guinea pigs, chickens and monkeys)! Just a few examples ...
Simply because someone is active (where the word activist comes from; opposite of being passive about something) pro- or against something does not automatically make them liars, you know - or even inadequate about the subject they seek change in. You are probably one of those POV-people who also say Jezus of Nazareth ate meat? Well I am not a historian but lemme tell you that the Essenian jews NEVER ate meat, so Jezus was a vegetarian .. Someone who is active for a cause is a civilian who uses/practices their lawful & constitutional rights to voice their opinion + their right to protest: these are the 2 pilars where our democracy rests on(!) If you do not agree on that, then you yourself are POV, as well as unreliable and should not be on any wiki-project at all. But please move to a country where there is no democracy if you do not believe in it. Ridiculous!
Actually, stating that people who are active in a field (are liars and) cannot express themselves (edit) on that subject makes you quite .. ehhm fascist .. ? Maybe you should take the /info/en/?search=F-scale_%28personality_test%29 that was developed by vegetarian (woops!) /info/en/?search=Theodor_W._Adorno ... 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 10:46, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
I notice that, while some content here is unwanted because someone was active for a cause while he was alive his knowledge is not to be used here becvause he wasn't a historian (as if historians know everything) and because he pushed a vegetarian agenda (!?); meanwhile in this article there are statements that come from a very NPOV an unreliable source: Kathleen Marquardt .. of all fascists she is really something: she is not only against animals, she is also against animal protection, against animal rights AND against animal rights 'activism' (people who use their democratic right in their spare time go out of their way to help the helpless from the same system of the nazis but then 100 x more evil)! This person founded Putting People First, which is an anti-animal organisation whose ONLY agenda is to make animal friends look bad! Was this Fascistoid Kathleen herself present at the time when this fisherman was sent to a concentration camp? Most likely NOT! -unreliable; yet included in this article!
If material gathered by Rynn Berry cannot be used, most certainly Kathleen Marquardt's information cannot be seen as neutral, verifiable or neutral. This is why I am putting the wiki-POV template(s) on this article. It cannot be so that one's information here IS wanted while another's is not - resulting in an article that is not NPOV and not neutral. If you want to include Reichpropaganda in here all made up by Goebbels that this is a make-believe page. The so-maniest in wikipedia, next to the vivisection-pages edited by vivisectionists who push an animal-testing agenda. This is NOT what wikipedia was meant for.
And ohh, I still cannot find your information here on how the big vivisector companies had so much power over the nazis that they were able to re-legalize vivisection and how they PAID the nazis for their human and animal vivisection, as Dr. Mengele sent his invoices to them. The same vivisectionists that still make animal AND human victims by their toxic pills (DES, Softenon, Halcion, Thalidomide and so on). Maybe that information should be included on the animal testing articles as well; or are too many not-NPOV vivisectors editing those pages in their non-neutral way? 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 14:52, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
If material gathered by Rynn Berry cannot be used, most certainly Kathleen Marquardt's information cannot be seen as neutral, verifiable or neutral. It cannot be so that one's information here IS wanted while another's is not - resulting in an article that is not NPOV and not neutral. If you want to include Reichpropaganda in here all made up by Goebbels that this is a make-believe page. The so-maniest in wikipedia, next to the vivisection-pages edited by vivisectionists who push an animal-testing agenda. You seem to be a NPOV-pusher. == Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion ==
Hello, Animal welfare in Nazi Germany. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Kathleen Marquardt's is anti-animal activist & anti-animalrights activist. She founded an activist organisation AGAINST animal friends, named 'Putting People First'. According to what you wrote she cannot be included for the same reasons Rynn Berry's information is, according to you, unwanted. But apparently you are the only one who can make decisions here? You are not Jimmy Wales though. 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 12:06, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Furthermore, when will all other wikipedians that are not historians and lawyers be deleted as 'users', as well as all others who put coloured information into wikipedia..? 83.232.236.174 ( talk) 10:09, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Could we have at least one paragraph explaining what the motivation was here. How did animal welfare connect to Nazi ideology in general? LastDodo ( talk) 16:53, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
dude, i get you're anglo, but there was nothing bipartisan about the Reichstag in 1933. [6]. -- 88.73.89.194 ( talk) 11:54, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
As a Hebrew speaker, who is able to read the Hebrew version of this entry, imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only is it way more informative - but the information is almost completely opposite to the one in the English entry. The sources (120 of them) state that most of the "positive" things we know about the Nazis are rooted in Nazi propaganda, and that they in fact abused slaughtered and burned alive millions of dogs, cats, horses and rabbits.
For instance, the following:
כאשר הצבא הגרמני קיבל הוראה לנטוש את חצי האי קרים ב-8 במאי 1944, היטלר הורה לטבוח ב-30,000 הסוסים של הצבא הגרמני בטרם נטישת הכוחות כדי שלא יפלו כשלל בידי הרוסים. הגרמנים העמידו את הסוסים בשורות וירו בהם. היה זה, ככל הנראה, טבח הסוסים הגדול ביותר בהיסטוריה
"When the German army recieved orders to abandon Crimea on May 8th 1944, Hitler ordered the slaughter of the 30 thousand horses of the German army before they leave, so they aren't taken by the Russians. The Germans lined up the horses and shot them. It was, apparently, the largest horse slaughter in history".
Sources: - Responce to Arluke and Sax. Helmut Meyer, Institüt für Tierernährung, Tierärtzliche Hochschule Hannover, D-3000 Hannover, Germany in Arluke, Arnold, and Boria Sax. "Understanding Nazi animal protection and the Holocaust." Anthrozoös 5.1 (1992): 6-31.
- Part 2: The Symbolism of Animals in Nazi Germany. Sax, Boria. Animals in the Third Reich: Pets, scapegoats, and the Holocaust. A&C Black, 2000.
I suggest some deeper and more thorough fact checking. 212.199.101.60 ( talk) 15:31, 20 April 2023 (UTC)